Leo G.4501
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Posts posted by Leo G.4501
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> @"kimeekat.2548" said:
> I'm disappointed in Arenanet and _really_ upset that Peter is gone. Collecting some things I've said elsewhere in the hope that Gaile or someone sees:
>
> The entire thesis of her twitter thread is that it's the genre that causes the constraint and The Partner's reply was basically like, "slight disagreement: have you instead considered that the problem is just your game" - a friendly pop in to disagree with the entire premise of the thread and her professional perspective with a backhanded comment for the narrative design team about how their implementation doesn't meet his standards because their choices are "just on the checklist for an achievement".
Okay, I don't see that as a backhand. She says the genre is the fault point here but the partner says "perhaps it's just your game"? That's exactly right. SWTOR is the anti-thesis to her observation. Rather than dismiss the comment, why not discect it? Look into how the living story formula plays out and what is optimal, what is constrained, what is detrimental, what could be improved. If the logic is, the way things are is perfect, then that right there is the divide in perspective.
>She just wrote a whole thread about why+how that is and Anet has talked about the struggles of branching decisions+dialogue many times, down to the additional resources that unique "end conversation" text options take up even within a single conversation tree, which is why we see player choices primarily in expansions where the story arc is more compact and contained alongside a more traditional ending where the choices can converge once more. Her thread was a personal thought after the AMA, not the AMA itself - and even if it was an AMA he didn't ask a question, he did that thing where someone says, "more of a comment than a question" and I thought the meme war had already been fought on whether that move is a faux pas or not.
>
No, that isn't a faux pas. It never was.
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> @"Zaklex.6308" said:
> > @"Dengar.1785" said:
> > > @"Zaklex.6308" said:
> > > > @"Ashen.2907" said:
> > > > > @"Zaklex.6308" said:
> > > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said:
> > > > > > > @"Zaklex.6308" said:
> > > > > > > Actually, I'm disappointed in ArenaNet...and the vast majority of the GW community as well...this is 2018, we all need to move into the now and start learning to separate a persons freedom of speech on PERSONAL social media from what they say on BUSINESS related social media. This actually extends beyond social media and includes sports personal conduct clauses...what you or anyone does on their own PERSONAL time does not reflect on how well they perform a job. I'm going to be quite unpopular with the following, but all of this really started with the Ray Rice thing(look it up if you don't know about that) and the NFL. Now, before you think I condone any type of abuse against another person you'd be so far from the truth it would make me laugh, but having said that, even though what he did to his girlfriend in an elevator during the off-season was atrocious, I do not think it was anyone's business but his and hers alone. If you're going to hold someone else up as a role model, society has a serious issue, the only role models should be your parents(if you have them of course).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The only way society is going to advance is this way: what you do at work or while representing your employer is directly related to that employer; what you do or say on your own PERSONAL time has nothing to do with your employer and until the rest of the world learns this we're all screwed(that even includes if you reference your employer on your own PERSONAL social media handles). I DO NOT CARE what someone does on their own time, nor should anyone else but that person, even the employer should not care what that person does on their own PERSONAL time, but we as a society have forgotten how to separate work from personal time...that is what work hours are for, so those people unable to tell the difference can.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Wake up world, this is 2018, not 1984 or 1950 or anyone other year...time to evolve or die out.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If the person, on their own time and personal social media accounts, is actively promoting themself as a company representative then they have decided to erase the line between personal and professional.
> > > > >
> > > > > Like I said, that's old school thinking, which almost everyone is still doing...either humankind evolves or it dies out, until humankind can learn to separate personal time from employee time...we as a society are screwed. I do not care if you mention in your private personal social media accounts who you work for, those are for your own private thoughts, I'm smart enough to realize they do not reflect the company you work for, but as we've all seen...there is another single person in America that is smart enough to be able to do that. I won't speak for the rest of the world...let me put my thinking into a simple example...I wear a uniform at work, while I'm wearing that uniform I am representing my employer, the minute I take off any part of the uniform that identifies my employer I am now on my PERSONAL time and I should be allowed to say anything I want that isn't illegal...even if completely contradicts my employers public image...that is the state the world needs to be in, separate the individual from the job, they are not the same thing.
> > > >
> > > > Right, but the person who chose to not separate the personal time from the professional was her. She chose to not evolve, as you put it, and suffered the, very unfortunate, consequences.
> > >
> > > Apparently you're unable to comprehend what I'm saying...it isn't only the poster that has to do that, it's also the reader...EVERYONE needs to separate personal time from professional time, even if you list your professional associations on your PERSONAL social media...that is what I am saying. Let me put it this way, say you work an 8 - 5 job, what you say during those 8 - 5 hours reflects on your employer...anything you say outside of those hours, unless you're at a function representing your employer are your PERSONAL opinions and have no reflection on your employer....that is how we as a society need to evolve.
> >
> > Your argument is invalidated when an employee uses her PERSONAL account to abuse her employer's customers.
>
> We're just going to have to agree to disagree, since I clearly stated the everyone is going to have to learn to separate PERSONAL from PROFESSIONAL, regardless of whom your dealing with in your PERSONAL social media...in my book, what you say and do on your own PERSONAL time and platforms does not reflect on your employer, even if you're interacting with that employers customers.
>
> Here's a question everyone needs to ask themselves...why do you associate what someone says on their own personal social media with the employer they work for, are people not entitled to think differently and have different opinions than their employer? Shouldn't those people be free to express those differences on their own personal social media accounts, even to people that might be customers of that employer...after all, it's someones private time, they're not on the clock.
>
> That is how I see the world, there's the professional you and the private you, and those two people do not have to think or act the same, nor do they have to walk on eggshells because their employer might not like what they say on their own private time, even to a customer, even a customer that was clearly in the wrong, customers need to realize the same thing...there's a difference between business time and private time.
Good. You have conviction in your views!
Now open your eyes and look at your own perspective critically. Own your biases and understand how they could distort your viewpoints. Take in a bigger picture and reflect.
To answer your question: why do you associate what someone says on their own personal social media with the employer they work for..?
I'll ask you a question: why would anyone be able to discern that you work for a certain employer at all?
In an ideal mass social media environment, your annonymity is your saving grace and narcissism is your worst enemy.
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> @"PecanBlue.4965" said:
> Very disappointed in Anet pandering to what is essentially a bunch of whiny gamers getting upset at someone who undoubtedly faces harassment every day, when the Youtuber probably didn't care that much to begin with. An apology from her, sure, but firing them? Thanks for encouraging the already toxic community.
Who honestly cares about an empty apology?
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> @"Noviere.7309" said:
> Wow. The angry mob wins.
You can thank Twitter ^_^
Are we ready to burn down mass social media yet?
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> @"Dengar.1785" said:
> I... Feel bad for Peter Fries. Did he deserve some sort of disciplinary measure? Sure. Did he deserve the same thing as Jessica Price? I don't think so.
>
> For that matter, my mind is in all sorts of places about the firing. I understand this was a really hard decision to make, and I accept that being let go is a logical consequence to JP's behavior. Still, something about this doesn't feel quite right.
Consequences of white knighting.
If you ever have to white knight, ask if its worth it in the end. Save your kid? Worth it. Defend your dignity? If you value pride or self esteem more. Win an internet shouting match? Never.
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> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:
>
I don't even have to read the rest to thumbs this post up.
And thanks for breaking down those articles. I'm on my phone and that just isn't going to happen on my end.
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> @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said:
> > @"Leo G.4501" said:
> > > @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said:
> > > > @"saerni.2584" said:
> > > > > @"Laivine.9308" said:
> > > > > > @"phokus.8934" said:
> > > > > > She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?
> > > > >
> > > > > Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?
> > > >
> > > > Apparently accusing someone of sexism is sexist. Same as accusing someone of racism. This kind of shallow logic is unfortunately common these days.
> > >
> > > Exhibit approximately one million: "Racism doesn't exist, but reverse racism is totally a problem."
> > >
> > > > Also I love all the men trying to explain to a woman what sexism is. If you can’t understand why something is sexist you shouldn’t just assume it isn’t and then accuse her of being “crazy.” That automatic dismissal is sexist, actually.
> > > >
> > > > It’s like, take a step back and ask yourself “do I really know enough to comment intelligently on this?” If the answer is “not sure” then maybe you should be listening and not speaking.
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, the answer to the question is going to be "yes" as far as those folks are concerned. Just like "I make the most basic suggestion possible, because you have clearly never considered this" dude, they believe that they *do* have the knowledge, and the special insight, to comment intelligently on it.
> >
> > Well I'm sorry if your woman confidence keeps you at the back of the class. You'll just have to leave those people who have the "special insight" to lead the charge regardless of if you agree with them or not. Things don't get done by just letting the individuals that want to make excuses lead.
>
> Oh, sugarplum, so many things wrong in so few words, including my gender, calling the most basic possible suggestion "special insight", and that I am somehow "just making excuses" instead of, y'know, also commenting here.
>
> Just out of interest, though, how many people who have worked one year in MMO story design, let alone ten, do you think would have considered the question "could we use a branching narrative to give players more agency within our story"?
I didn't assume your gender, I said you have woman confidence, which is an obvious sexist jab you seem to still get caught by.
And if I'm being brutally honest, writing a story is damned easy especially if we're talking about the context of a game (and more specifically, GW2). I know people who could do twice as good at writing a better story and I bet wooden potatoes could do 10x better than that. Having 10 years experience writing a game story is akin to 10 years writing fanfics. It's not equivalent but it's nothing to brag about.
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> @"castlemanic.3198" said:
> Ho boy, here we go.
>
> > @"Leo G.4501" said:
> > None of that is hate. Having unequal representation isn't harassment. Not only that, you cite the same resource many times which is going to have a bias (especially kotaku).
> >
>
> Except there are reasons cited which include harassment, but whatever
>
But I'll reiterate that it isn't hate. Disagreement isn't hate. Criticism isn't hate. Sensitive people now a days will associate all of those things (disagreement and criticism) as harassment or conflate something like trolling as harassment while participating in the very same type of actions. Just slapping a blanket term of harassment doesn't make reality change it to hate. And half those articles are talking about lack of representation which, again, isn't harassment.
> This is a discussion about the gaming industry, I tried to focus it as much as possible on the gaming industry. There's a whole discussion to be had about the nature of gender roles and how they've forced stigmas upon people who diverge away from their 'decided upon by society' roles, which includes men who go into nursing. There's an extremely large and in depth debate to be had about how patriarchies have affected society and how it's ended up harming everyone, there isn't a single person who hasn't been negatively affected by the patriarchy but some like the massive benefits it grants them for staying within the confines of their gender roles.
>
I wouldn't argue that patriarchies are harmful without context. Compared to the possible replacements, it is the most easily manageable community unit.
> This single handedly convinced me continuing a conversation with you is warrantless, and is the reason why I've kept my responses short.
>
Well now I'm curious. What about what I've said convinced you if that? I'm pretty open to discussion and find I usually take a contrarian stance for the sake of discussion.
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> @"Vieux P.1238" said:
> > @"Leo G.4501" said:
> > > @"castlemanic.3198" said:
> > > > @"Leo G.4501" said:
> > > > Where are these quantitative facts? I have never heard that female game developers get more hate *because* they are female. If it's true that female game developers get more hate, maybe it's because the products and changes they push aren't desired? That isn't sexism, that's consumerism.
> > >
> > > Besides observable history?
> > >
> > > https://www.polygon.com/2016/7/21/12241890/women-game-development
> > >
> > > https://kotaku.com/d-d-wouldn-t-be-what-it-is-today-without-these-women-1796426183
> > >
> > > http://theconversation.com/more-women-are-becoming-game-developers-but-theres-a-long-way-to-go-79843
> > >
> > > https://mashable.com/2018/01/09/video-game-diversity/#JEcOTwVIjOqM
> > >
> > > https://kotaku.com/the-struggle-to-bring-more-women-into-game-development-1783683864
> > >
> > >
> > > http://www.unite-it.eu/profiles/blogs/why-are-so-few-women-developing-video-games
> > >
> > > https://www.polygon.com/2016/9/12/12891628/videogame-industry-salary-survey
> > >
> > > Just a couple of articles for you that cover not only harassment from gamers but also stuff women deal with from their colleagues. And this is a quick google search.
> > >
> >
> > None of that is hate. Having unequal representation isn't harassment. Not only that, you cite the same resource many times which is going to have a bias (especially kotaku).
> >
> > Lastly, none of that is quantitative.
> >
> > > > I bet you a large sum of money, if the shoe were on the other foot, and a male game developer were telling a female commentor to go back in the kitchen and make a sandwich or something, this wouldn't be the stance you'd take.
> > > https://variety.com/2018/biz/news/star-wars-kelly-marie-tran-leaves-social-media-harassment-1202830892/). So the truth works against you.
> > >
> >
> > I'm actually well versed in the topic of star wars and the recent backlash. You do realize Rian J received far more hate and criticism than the actress if Rose. The only thruth is, when you take a beloved franchise and drag it through the mud of identity politics, your going to have a mud covered franchise that people don't like any more.
> >
> > > Besides, 'go make a sandwhich' is not on the same level of calling someone sexist for a difference in opinion. There isn't a good comparison because, again, men in general get less hate in the industry. You're free to ignore the very observable habits of women getting chased off of media platforms for death threats because they merely exist in the industry.
> > >
> >
> > It's only not comparable because woman feel it's not, not because it is logically or quantifiably not comparable.
> >
> > > > I'm going to say it right now: female game developers do not get more online hate, they just complain about it more. In fact, practically all the criticism laid on thick about this game, the ones expected to shoulder the responsibility for those failings are men. Even if women played a part in the teams that fail us, it's generally expected to be the man's fault. That's just how things go and its the other side of sexism that men have to deal with but usually never nag women about. Whenever a bad thing happens, it's a man's fault. Whenever backlash happens, it's not the woman's fault and you should empathize with her. Whenever something needs to be fixed, it's a man's problem to do the work. Whenever success is achieved and a woman is there, the woman will take an equal share of the credit even though she didn't put in an equal share of the work.
> > > >
> > > > All of those observations, I assure you, any man will attest to but won't ever whine about.
> > >
> > > As a man myself, let me make it clear that you are presenting a series of factually incorrect statements, especially with regards to the gaming industry.
> > >
> >
> > Then prove it. You can say it's not true in the gaming industry, but how about in every other industry? How about the equality of work and published studies by men vs women in nursing? Or education? The facts are, men do go the extra mile but we will say women are still equally as hard working.
> >
> > This isn't a shot at women because I know there are women out there that work their bum off. This is a jab at identity politicians who think rounding up statistics by gender mean anything for the individual. The only thing your article links tell me is there are women willing to complain about anything and weak willed men out there that just take their word for it.
> >
> > > Are you really going to tell me that she took credit for somebody else's work? There's a historical precedent for men to take sole credit of the work of women (which continues to this day) so your argument falls flat there.
> > >
> >
> > I didn't say that. That is in context of everything. When there is a problem, it's the man's fault but when victory is abound, there will be women who share in the spoils.
>
> Leo G.4501, You got valid points. But are you really going to excuse her behavior for real? Cuz her attacks was unwarranted & had no merits.
> It's clear in this case she's the bully.
On the contrary. I see her as a bully protected by the female activists and male white knights and she should get the same treatment she dishes out.
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> @"castlemanic.3198" said:
> > @"Leo G.4501" said:
> > Where are these quantitative facts? I have never heard that female game developers get more hate *because* they are female. If it's true that female game developers get more hate, maybe it's because the products and changes they push aren't desired? That isn't sexism, that's consumerism.
>
> Besides observable history?
>
> https://www.polygon.com/2016/7/21/12241890/women-game-development
>
> https://kotaku.com/d-d-wouldn-t-be-what-it-is-today-without-these-women-1796426183
>
> http://theconversation.com/more-women-are-becoming-game-developers-but-theres-a-long-way-to-go-79843
>
> https://mashable.com/2018/01/09/video-game-diversity/#JEcOTwVIjOqM
>
> https://kotaku.com/the-struggle-to-bring-more-women-into-game-development-1783683864
>
>
> http://www.unite-it.eu/profiles/blogs/why-are-so-few-women-developing-video-games
>
> https://www.polygon.com/2016/9/12/12891628/videogame-industry-salary-survey
>
> Just a couple of articles for you that cover not only harassment from gamers but also stuff women deal with from their colleagues. And this is a quick google search.
>
None of that is hate. Having unequal representation isn't harassment. Not only that, you cite the same resource many times which is going to have a bias (especially kotaku).
Lastly, none of that is quantitative.
> > I bet you a large sum of money, if the shoe were on the other foot, and a male game developer were telling a female commentor to go back in the kitchen and make a sandwich or something, this wouldn't be the stance you'd take.
> https://variety.com/2018/biz/news/star-wars-kelly-marie-tran-leaves-social-media-harassment-1202830892/). So the truth works against you.
>
I'm actually well versed in the topic of star wars and the recent backlash. You do realize Rian J received far more hate and criticism than the actress if Rose. The only thruth is, when you take a beloved franchise and drag it through the mud of identity politics, your going to have a mud covered franchise that people don't like any more.
> Besides, 'go make a sandwhich' is not on the same level of calling someone sexist for a difference in opinion. There isn't a good comparison because, again, men in general get less hate in the industry. You're free to ignore the very observable habits of women getting chased off of media platforms for death threats because they merely exist in the industry.
>
It's only not comparable because woman feel it's not, not because it is logically or quantifiably not comparable.
> > I'm going to say it right now: female game developers do not get more online hate, they just complain about it more. In fact, practically all the criticism laid on thick about this game, the ones expected to shoulder the responsibility for those failings are men. Even if women played a part in the teams that fail us, it's generally expected to be the man's fault. That's just how things go and its the other side of sexism that men have to deal with but usually never nag women about. Whenever a bad thing happens, it's a man's fault. Whenever backlash happens, it's not the woman's fault and you should empathize with her. Whenever something needs to be fixed, it's a man's problem to do the work. Whenever success is achieved and a woman is there, the woman will take an equal share of the credit even though she didn't put in an equal share of the work.
> >
> > All of those observations, I assure you, any man will attest to but won't ever whine about.
>
> As a man myself, let me make it clear that you are presenting a series of factually incorrect statements, especially with regards to the gaming industry.
>
Then prove it. You can say it's not true in the gaming industry, but how about in every other industry? How about the equality of work and published studies by men vs women in nursing? Or education? The facts are, men do go the extra mile but we will say women are still equally as hard working.
This isn't a shot at women because I know there are women out there that work their bum off. This is a jab at identity politicians who think rounding up statistics by gender mean anything for the individual. The only thing your article links tell me is there are women willing to complain about anything and weak willed men out there that just take their word for it.
> Are you really going to tell me that she took credit for somebody else's work? There's a historical precedent for men to take sole credit of the work of women (which continues to this day) so your argument falls flat there.
>
I didn't say that. That is in context of everything. When there is a problem, it's the man's fault but when victory is abound, there will be women who share in the spoils.
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> @"castlemanic.3198" said:
> I just feel the need to weigh in my own 2 cents.
>
> 1. Female game devs get a lot more hate than male devs. That's just a fact of life
Where are these quantitative facts? I have never heard that female game developers get more hate *because* they are female. If it's true that female game developers get more hate, maybe it's because the products and changes they push aren't desired? That isn't sexism, that's consumerism.
> @"castlemanic.3198" said:
> 4. The dev's ultimate response is one of immediate defense, as is probably natural of anyone in her position. I don't know how it is for female game devs on a personal note, but like I mentioned in point 1, it's just a fact that they get a lot of hate and respond appropriately when they find hate on their doorstep. I think this is the point where JP had over reacted, but I can see how the remark could have been seen as disingenuous and why she would have taken that approach. I've personally seen people pose 'genuine' questions and when answered with civility and understanding, become condescending, angry, and hateful at any responses made, and if JP had perceived the remark as such, it would go a long way to explaining the jump in attitude.
I bet you a large sum of money, if the shoe were on the other foot, and a male game developer were telling a female commentor to go back in the kitchen and make a sandwich or something, this wouldn't be the stance you'd take.
> @"castlemanic.3198" said:
> **_TL;DR:_** She reacted as any human being would to a response that was interpreted as the hatred she probably gets on a daily basis (as female game devs get far more online hatred than male game devs). However, I do believe her interpretations were off the mark. While I sympathise with her response, I won't justify it and don't condone it. But we do have to bring a measure of understanding and compassion to the table, especially in cases where it's known for a fact that someone can get a disproportionate amount of online hate.
I'm going to say it right now: female game developers do not get more online hate, they just complain about it more. In fact, practically all the criticism laid on thick about this game, the ones expected to shoulder the responsibility for those failings are men. Even if women played a part in the teams that fail us, it's generally expected to be the man's fault. That's just how things go and its the other side of sexism that men have to deal with but usually never nag women about. Whenever a bad thing happens, it's a man's fault. Whenever backlash happens, it's not the woman's fault and you should empathize with her. Whenever something needs to be fixed, it's a man's problem to do the work. Whenever success is achieved and a woman is there, the woman will take an equal share of the credit even though she didn't put in an equal share of the work.
All of those observations, I assure you, any man will attest to but won't ever whine about.
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> @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said:
> > @"Leo G.4501" said:
> > > @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said:
> > > Really don't follow what you are trying to say here, bud. Wanna spell it out for the audience?
> >
> > Partially that, if it were someone criticizing a woman or liberal author for typical feminine or progressive used tropes, that isn't allowed or will be reported and silenced but when it's criticizing a man for some sort of common power fantasy-esque trope or whatever, it's a-okay and not sexism.
>
> You may, at some point, of heard people talk about "punching down" and "punching up". That'd be the underlying explanation here, for part of that: male authors, and male gatekeepers, dominate these fields. They hold the power, and the privilege, in this situation. Given that, vs the people who are systematically underrepresented and disempowered, yeah, it's much more OK to criticise one group than the other.
>
> > But mainly that, I'm positive there are female writers on the team that read and/or approved of and/or came up with and/or took credit for the characters of the main guild (to include Kasmeer) but we're only going to blame the men writers for the faults of the story or writing? Accountability is the key and while individuals can be held accountable for the writing in the game, what is between those individuals' legs cannot.
>
> Honestly, that was mostly pointing out the interesting gender assignment used when complaining about the trope. Suddenly it became a fan*girl* because the writing wasn't great. See also above.
>
Well this contains alot of identity politics discussion that I don't have any inclination of discussing here.
> > As for subverting common tropes, it's nice when it's unexpected but it won't be unexpected if you expect it. There's a reason some tropes are common and it's one-part them being good story tools and 2 parts people expecting them to be there. It's all the more easier to subvert a trope when you actually use them with the goal to subvert them within the story.
>
> Nothing in what you say here is false. It is true that some tropes are good story tools, but... this was about a concrete trope. Are you saying that you firmly believe that the whole ditzy blond with a disempowering nervous tic trope is a good, solid story tool?
>
Yes. Although I don't usually write blonds, I do write ditzy characters with overpowered abilities and some with disempowering tics (I have a Marvel Hulk-esque Asuran Warrior imbued with chaos magic who is as strong as a Norn until he tells a lie...it's a fun story tool that can work solidly, IMO).
> Your second point, also, rather conflicts with your first one, doesn't it? If people expect these tropes, then subverting them *will* be unexpected. Rather by definition.
>
> On the other hand, if people expect these tropes to be subverted, you can't say that they are common because they are expected. You kinda only get to pick one of those two.
Well just because you use a common trope doesn't mean you *should* subvert it, which is what I was getting at.
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> @"Blocki.4931" said:
> > @"Xenon.4537" said:
> > I've spent today reading through JP's tweets (both new and old) and I honestly get the impression she has prejudice for males. It's blatantly obvious. On top of that a few days ago she was abusive to MMOINKS, and today she was abusive to Deroir. There are countless people trying to get into this industry who would love to have the job JP has. Yet this is how she decides to treat fans of the game. It's disgraceful. She has no respect for the people who are customers of her employer. It is simply unacceptable for an Arenanet employee to publicly trash talk and name-call someone who is an official Arenanet partner.
>
> What did she say to INKS? He's like the nicest guy ever.. And I am blocked before ever interacting with her :)
You must be swimming in the pool of wrongthink.
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> @"Eme.2018" said:
> @"Leo G.4501" you said:
> > If that happened to other people in recent news, what makes J Price special and should be protected from the same backlash?
>
> Wait, I don't understand. With the same logic we shouldn't try to stop famine because people have starved to death before.
>
> You also said :
> >I don't think she should be disciplined for crap on Twitter either
>
> I am missing something? Because this doesn't add up to me.
>
>
The missing piece is "degree of punishment". I don't think anything at her job should change, but I think she needs to be roasted on these forums or twitter or reddit or wherever until she feels she's been adaquately "mansplained" how to treat her company's playerbase and criticism as a whole.
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> @"Memoranda.9386" said:
> > @"Lord Krilik.3692" said:
> > > @"Haleydawn.3764" said:
> > > Why are you throwing all Anet writers under the bus, for one devs actions on her Twitter account? She didn’t ask for an opinion, she stated an observation. She could’ve replied better, sure, but she didn’t actually ask for an opinion. Doesn’t really matter if it’s public or not, it’s her personal Twitter account, she can act how she likes on it. And guess what, Anet will decide how to handle it, not us on the forum.
> > > Her best option, would have been to not reply at all.
> >
> > You're right. She should have kept quiet. Instead she created a mess, and people aren't happy. I think it's fair to demand answers. She offended much of the player-base, and unprofessionally slandered a GW2 content creator. She was also extremely sexist, which never goes down well.
>
> You are using these words with very specific legal meanings, and I don't think they mean what you think they mean. Has what she said demonstrably ruined, defamed or otherwise materially damaged his brand? Probably not. If anything, this has been excellent exposure!
>
> Have you taken a poll of the entire community? I'm sure 95% of players have no idea this is even an issue. The people most upset seem to be supporters of the elusively named "respected content creator".
>
> The last part is most intriguing, though. She's sexist? Maybe. But I am fairly certain, as a woman, she has dealt with more sexism this month than any man has ever dealt with since... ever. Unprofessional as it allegedly is, most people are viewing this through tinted glasses.
You're starting to show some sexism here.
The thing is, men usually suffer different kinds of sexism than women but it's not any less difficult to deal with. If anything, the reason men tend to not complain about sexism as much is because we've dealt with it for our whole lives even down to when your mom tells you "you gotta be the man of the house and protect everyone", it instills a different mentality that we are expected to suffer and struggle and sacrifice. It's a sign of equality that most mend *don't* bring up their hardships because it's supposed to be mutually understood that women suffer different difficulties just like we do and don't expect equal compensation.
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> @"Tasida.4085" said:
> > @"Blocki.4931" said:
> > > @"Tasida.4085" said:
> > > > @"Leo G.4501" said:
> > > > > @"Tasida.4085" said:
> > > > > Oh come on. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I think some people are taking this a little too seriously. People and pc today, they act like it personally affects their lives if some1 has their own opinion. She never POINTED anyone specific out. Some people are just way to sensitive. It doesn't affect the players game time in anyway, so everyone keep chiving on and playing the game as you normally do.
> > > >
> > > > I think she did. She literally quoted some guy's tweet with a caption of something like "A day in the life of a female game developer: someone telling me how to do my job" or some such.
> > >
> > > Guess I skimmed over that bit. And that persons' life is just gonna be changed forever now I suppose (for the worst). OH THE HORRORS......smh
> >
> > That's not the point. The point is that the behaviour itself is unacceptable.
>
> *Rolls my eyes* there's gotta b a 12 step program (thin skin prevention) out there, and looks like quite a few need it. Someone start 1 asap
I propose the "kid gloves off" clause where if you go ballistic on social media, it is within the rules to roast the everliving bejeebus out of you and you can't block it. So if you don't want your feefees hurt, you better stay in line.
I would condescend her to oblivion to get that triggering going, that'd skip her at least 4 steps in the program lol
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> @"Batel.9206" said:
> > @"Leo G.4501" said:
> > > @"Batel.9206" said:
> > > > @"Leo G.4501" said:
> > > > But that's the thing: she can't. She cannot act how she likes on her Twitter BECAUSE of backlash. That is the whole point I'm trying to make in how people react to social media. It's no longer just some thing you can post or tweet whatever on. It's regulated, monitored and quickly spreads to a degree that if you do *ANYTHING* that either your educational institution, your congregation, your employer or business partners can see will have an effect thus you can't do what you like on your account, only what you're allowed to do.
> > >
> > > Yeah, that's called accountability and professionalism. When you work for a company, you essentially become (one of) the public face(s) of that company. What you say reflects the company's policy as a whole.
> >
> > FYI, I don't disagree with you, I just feel there could have been a divide between people and their online identity. Because even if people hold harmful or racist or sexist, etc views, so long as they can hold that divide of "what they feel/think" and "what they do", who are we to restrict anyone in such a way? It's only in recent decades that people have this belief in "subconscious biases" that need to be changed rather than just give individuals responsibility to restrict themselves.
> >
> > I mean, the more freedoms you try to strip away from people, the more dangerous they become.
>
> While you bring up a good point, this isn't about personal freedoms. Price represents a company - end of story. In THAT CONTEXT, company employees should censor themselves in order to reflect better on the company as a whole. Professionalism: being mature enough to realize that a company-affiliated media channel is, in fact, not your personal rant nest. Now, if this were indeed someone's private account, then sure - feel free to say what you please...and be prepared to deal with possible consequences in the form of people lashing back at you (free speech works both ways).
> But it is not a private account. That's part of the problem.
I wholeheartedly agree. My idealistic reply was just that: idealistic. But it's a shame because I'd consider my view as very moderate. And my moderate view likely becomes more and more extreme as the internet becomes more regulated for the sake of ad revenue and thus politics seep into what you can do online even more.
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> @"Batel.9206" said:
> > @"Leo G.4501" said:
> > But that's the thing: she can't. She cannot act how she likes on her Twitter BECAUSE of backlash. That is the whole point I'm trying to make in how people react to social media. It's no longer just some thing you can post or tweet whatever on. It's regulated, monitored and quickly spreads to a degree that if you do *ANYTHING* that either your educational institution, your congregation, your employer or business partners can see will have an effect thus you can't do what you like on your account, only what you're allowed to do.
>
> Yeah, that's called accountability and professionalism. When you work for a company, you essentially become (one of) the public face(s) of that company. What you say reflects the company's policy as a whole.
FYI, I don't disagree with you, I just feel there could have been a divide between people and their online identity. Because even if people hold harmful or racist or sexist, etc views, so long as they can hold that divide of "what they feel/think" and "what they do", who are we to restrict anyone in such a way? It's only in recent decades that people have this belief in "subconscious biases" that need to be changed rather than just give individuals responsibility to restrict themselves.
I mean, the more freedoms you try to strip away from people, the more dangerous they become.
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> @"Kenagin.3529" said:
> Overblown or not, it's not a proper way to represent the company you're working for. If it was a rando the whole stuff might not have been blown up. But calling out like that to someone who is doing a lot for the game is not the way i would like my employees to act.
>
> Also she's saying on her twitter that she only pretends to like us when she's on the clock. At least that's how I read it. (Twitter feed)
>
> Edit: removed screenshot link
Well lucky for her, I don't even pretend to like the devs or the game, I simply am a reasonable individual who likes to have civil discussions.
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> @"Dante.1763" said:
>Those of us in the military(at least my group) was taught to keep their opinions to themselves over political matters on the internet. Sure some dont, but they /do/ get in trouble for it, because its a *publicly* viewable space.
It's a good thing I just hate social media, I don't have to police what I put on the internet (as much...)
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> @"Haleydawn.3764" said:
> > @"Leo G.4501" said:
> > > @"Haleydawn.3764" said:
> > > > @"Leo G.4501" said:
> > > > > @"Haleydawn.3764" said:
> > > > > Why are you throwing all Anet writers under the bus, for one devs actions on her Twitter account? She didn’t ask for an opinion, she stated an observation. She could’ve replied better, sure, but she didn’t actually ask for an opinion. Doesn’t really matter if it’s public or not, it’s her personal Twitter account, she can act how she likes on it. And guess what, Anet will decide how to handle it, not us on the forum.
> > > > > Her best option, would have been to not reply at all.
> > > >
> > > > Good. Now enforce that mentality across all of Twitter so people's lives and career aren't ruined because of crap vomited out on a platform literally meant to vomit out 250 messages. I'll wait.
> > > >
> > > > But seriously, it goes both ways. If she said something mean or immature into the public space, she deserves every roasting she's going to get for it, just like all those before her.
> > >
> > > You seriously need to read my posts better. She’ll get disciplinary action for this (**“And guess what, Anet will decide how to handle it, not us on the forum.”**)
> >
> > You're misunderstanding left and right, huh? I don't think she should be disciplined for crap on Twitter either, but there are people who are far more successful than J Price that have lost everything (from CEO positions to Sitcoms) because of crap on Twitter or are being prosecuted for accusations because of crap (that is likely untrue) on Twitter. If that happened to other people in recent news, what makes J Price special and should be protected from the same backlash?
> >
> >
>
> I’m not saying she should be protected from backlash. She is getting a lot of it. The difference is, her Twitter is directly affiliated with Arena Net, and it’s a bad image.
> Any other nobody that used the same tactic she did deserves backlash, however, she can still act how she likes on her Twitter account. She will see the repercussions very soon I imagine.
> Is this easier for you to understand? Blimey, it’s difficult communicating with some forum users.
But that's the thing: she can't. She cannot act how she likes on her Twitter BECAUSE of backlash. That is the whole point I'm trying to make in how people react to social media. It's no longer just some thing you can post or tweet whatever on. It's regulated, monitored and quickly spreads to a degree that if you do *ANYTHING* that either your educational institution, your congregation, your employer or business partners can see will have an effect thus you can't do what you like on your account, only what you're allowed to do.
And it's not that diffiult to communicate with forum users. I find I can convey my messages quite well when I'm on a keyboard.
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> @"Haleydawn.3764" said:
> > @"Leo G.4501" said:
> > > @"Haleydawn.3764" said:
> > > Why are you throwing all Anet writers under the bus, for one devs actions on her Twitter account? She didn’t ask for an opinion, she stated an observation. She could’ve replied better, sure, but she didn’t actually ask for an opinion. Doesn’t really matter if it’s public or not, it’s her personal Twitter account, she can act how she likes on it. And guess what, Anet will decide how to handle it, not us on the forum.
> > > Her best option, would have been to not reply at all.
> >
> > Good. Now enforce that mentality across all of Twitter so people's lives and career aren't ruined because of crap vomited out on a platform literally meant to vomit out 250 messages. I'll wait.
> >
> > But seriously, it goes both ways. If she said something mean or immature into the public space, she deserves every roasting she's going to get for it, just like all those before her.
>
> You seriously need to read my posts better. She’ll get disciplinary action for this (**“And guess what, Anet will decide how to handle it, not us on the forum.”**)
You're misunderstanding left and right, huh? I don't think she should be disciplined for crap on Twitter either, but there are people who are far more successful than J Price that have lost everything (from CEO positions to Sitcoms) because of crap on Twitter or are being prosecuted for accusations because of crap (that is likely untrue) on Twitter. If that happened to other people in recent news, what makes J Price special and should be protected from the same backlash?
-
> @"Haleydawn.3764" said:
> Why are you throwing all Anet writers under the bus, for one devs actions on her Twitter account? She didn’t ask for an opinion, she stated an observation. She could’ve replied better, sure, but she didn’t actually ask for an opinion. Doesn’t really matter if it’s public or not, it’s her personal Twitter account, she can act how she likes on it. And guess what, Anet will decide how to handle it, not us on the forum.
> Her best option, would have been to not reply at all.
Good. Now enforce that mentality across all of Twitter so people's lives and career aren't ruined because of crap vomited out on a platform literally meant to vomit out 250 character messages. I'll wait.
But seriously, it goes both ways. If she said something mean or immature into the public space, she deserves every roasting she's going to get for it, just like all those before her.
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> @"Tasida.4085" said:
> > @"Leo G.4501" said:
> > > @"Tasida.4085" said:
> > > Oh come on. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I think some people are taking this a little too seriously. People and pc today, they act like it personally affects their lives if some1 has their own opinion. She never POINTED anyone specific out. Some people are just way to sensitive. It doesn't affect the players game time in anyway, so everyone keep chiving on and playing the game as you normally do.
> >
> > I think she did. She literally quoted some guy's tweet with a caption of something like "A day in the life of a female game developer: someone telling me how to do my job" or some such.
>
> And that persons' life is just gonna be changed forever now I suppose (for the worst). SMH
I'm not disagreeing with you about blowing this whole situation out of proportion, just pointing out that she did point the guy out specifically.
It's kind of funny because on these forums, it is enforced that you can't call out people like that but I suppose not even all the devs agree with all the rules enforced here.
GW 2 Devs/Playerbase Twitter Discussion
in Guild Wars 2 Discussion
Posted
> @"Blaeys.3102" said:
> For everyone criticizing these people being fired - take a closer look at what Mike Obrien wrote. "As a result, they are no longer with the company." He never said they were fired. All we know is they are gone. It is just as likely that the company offered a way out of this and they chose to leave instead. We just don't know - and likely never will - and I am sure this decision wasn't made casually.
>
> At the end of the day, it is probably just better for everyone that this is over and behind them.
Of course they aren't going to say they fired them. That's in poor taste. Even to their face, their management staff didn't say "You're fired" but likely "We're going to have to let you go". They don't want to leave too rough a door print on those that leave because you never want a disgruntled ex-employee charging into the building ready to take names and chew bubblegum.