Leo G.4501

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> The OP asked if we would be interested in a budget version of a new race, as if the devs had never considered it. I said, well they actually did. And you said, "no, they didn't rule it out, because they didn't specifically rule out every form of 'quality'."

>

Again, you're arguing against assumption with an assumption. You're assuming that, because the devs may have contemplated work-arounds, that their final word was in the same context.

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> If you want to believe that they haven't considered the ideas in the original post, or other ideas that haven't been brought up in this thread (again), you can choose to do so. Or you can re-read the developer comments and realize that they really have thought about this, considered it seriously, and took the time to let us know their decision: no current plans for new playable races in any substantive form.

>

Well what words are you talking about, then? The discussions that I read on the topic with developer commentary weren't in the context of seeking work arounds, short cuts or the like. The reason it's dangerous to base your argument around something like that is because the devs are intentionally vague about what they communicate (for better or worse to those that await) future possible content addition.

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> I'm happy to discuss what sorts of new races people prefer (and have done so). Or why I would like to play a new race (and have done so).

> I also think it's important for people to know what the devs have actually said on the topic. I'm not sure why you think their comments aren't relevant.

I never said the devs comments were not relevant, but that the assumptions that you draw from those comments can be scrutinized. Are you arguing that your comments are wholly proven and fact? Or more importantly, what are you arguing again? I'm assuming it's that the devs have stated (2 years ago) that new races were something they were and have been considering but due to work constraints and the standard of quality to which they wish to implement them, it isn't a current or pending project for them?

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > @"meowtier.1364" said:

> > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > @"meowtier.1364" said:

> > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > > > @"Dreadshow.9320" said:

> > > > > > I wish class fx were dyable. First I would orange dye the blue out of Guardian Firebrand then purple dye the green out of Necromancer and finally Mesmer pink would become Mesmer neon green.

> > > > >

> > > > > That would reduce the readability of effects even further!

> > > > > > @"meowtier.1364" said:

> > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Dreamy Lu.3865" said:

> > > > > > > > I do love the visual effect on mesmer. But it is true that it is all pink and purple: For someone who doesn't like it... Well, I see the problem.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > @Blude.6812: The Dreamer is a short bow. The longbow one is Kudzu. And yes, the Dreamer is lot of pink too. :)

> > > > > > > > Now it is not exactly the same than for mesmer, because that bow is optional. Someone who does not like the visual effects can just ignore it. There is even an alternative: Chuka and Champawat. For mesmer, it is different: There is no alternative mesmer. That makes the pinky pink side of it mandatory to play the profession.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > This thread made me realize that mesmer is the only profession with such a unique dedicated color affecting all of it. The elementalists and necromancers have different color for their visual effects depending what they use. The other professions have no real color. Mesmer is the unique one like that.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Well it's hard to play a guardian without seeing blue flame, and it's almost impossible to play a necro without seeing green all over the place, including death shroud. Every profession really does have a color theme and it's more prevalent in mesmers because of the colors being so flamboyant. I mean I see blue fire all the time playing my guardian.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Yeah the classes have always had their color themes from art to in game stuff such as the pvp graph showing what classes you play.

> > > > > > 

> > > > > > Weirdly the ele's looks blue but it's the red

> > > > > Look at the feet where they didn't crop out the aura. Don't you just love it when people ignore details just to match their theory!

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Is that last part @ me bc I'm super confused

> > >

> > > The class color scheme is shown in that image through the "auras" surrounding them. Elementalist's top half is transparent. But you can see the aura around her legs, a big red blotch.

> >

> > Yes I'm aware which is why I said

> > "Weirdly the ele's looks blue but it's the red"

> > idk what theory you're talking about when I posted it specifically to say and show that each class have always had their own colors.

>

> Elementalist icon is red in game and in that picture so is the aura... The blue you see in the drawing is from lightning, one of it's elements...

> If you're still not satisfied, i'd point you to the art on this page: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/

>

> > @"Lambent.6375" said:

> > Maybe it's possible for them to change the default "aura" colors that each class has, and sell it as a gemstone feature

> >

> > A spin off thread should be made. I have doubts they would do it, but nothing will happen if you don't ask.

> >

> The problem with this kind of change is that even with very specific colored effects, the game is still **very** hard to read... Imagine if we could now free form class FX. It'd be impossible to distinguish a lot of aoes from each other, also it would allow players in modes like WvW and sPvP to tweak their FX colors to make them harder to see in-game, thus harder to miss...

> It's like in League of Legends where a lot of people consider some skins P2W because they make skill-shots harder to see, and thus harder to avoid, allowing this kind of change would just crank that effect up to 11.

>

I was mentioning this divide in another thread but I'm glad my hypothesis has some grounds. I think the players more concerned with creativity, skill variety and custom options likely favor standard/old school MMOs while those that focus on fun, challenging active combat will be at odds with them.

I personally would like a middle ground to be struck as needing to learn the tells for pvp is exactly the challenge they seek. I never minded the color of Mesmer myself, but I never really liked the butterflies. Considering that the illusion skills of a Mesmer should have remnants of the caster, it's odd that such a distinct feature is copied by all Mesmers. The breaking glass is rather distinct but generic enough to go with the shatter theme, but not butterflies. I'd rather pick a theme for my Mesmers (but I no longer play them) like feathers to go with her armor.

> @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > @"Dreamy Lu.3865" said:

> > > I do love the visual effect on mesmer. But it is true that it is all pink and purple: For someone who doesn't like it... Well, I see the problem.

> > >

> > > @Blude.6812: The Dreamer is a short bow. The longbow one is Kudzu. And yes, the Dreamer is lot of pink too. :)

> > > Now it is not exactly the same than for mesmer, because that bow is optional. Someone who does not like the visual effects can just ignore it. There is even an alternative: Chuka and Champawat. For mesmer, it is different: There is no alternative mesmer. That makes the pinky pink side of it mandatory to play the profession.

> > >

> > > This thread made me realize that mesmer is the only profession with such a unique dedicated color affecting all of it. The elementalists and necromancers have different color for their visual effects depending what they use. The other professions have no real color. Mesmer is the unique one like that.

> >

> > Well it's hard to play a guardian without seeing blue flame, and it's almost impossible to play a necro without seeing green all over the place, including death shroud. Every profession really does have a color theme and it's more prevalent in mesmers because of the colors being so flamboyant. I mean I see blue fire all the time playing my guardian.

>

> the problem here is that the blue flame suggests guardians use gas (or propane) as fuel for their attacks, blue flames don't happen without any kind of gas fuel.

In fiction, any flame that is a consistent unnatural color is associated with some sort of supernatural phenomenon. Blue flames that don't give of heat, black flames that never extinguish, white flames that "cleanse" things, green flames that corrupt, etc.

Also, not sure why this discussion is even being had. I mean, yeah stereotypes aren't always true but why deny a stereotype exists? Your not going to convince anyone that pink has no connection to feminine or that it's more strongly paired to masculine. You're better off subverting the stereotype with your choices than trying to bend the thoughts of people around you.

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > @"Rasimir.6239" said:

> > > One thing I don't understand: why would you want a new race if you restrict its visuals, story, or any of the other cuts suggested? What is it that will give you the feeling of getting something new and worthwhile?

> >

> > Personally? Because I think about 40% of the armor is gaudy garbage. If they were to cut most of the available armor for a new race to only specific distinct pieces (or just all together) and keep outfits (which I think about 20% is gaudy garbage, 40% is great looking and the other 40% is kinda meh but distinct enough to have a purpose to wear on certain occasions) I would be perfectly fine limiting the layered clothing for any new races because the game has nowhere to go but introduce more clothing options down the line anyway.

> Ah, but here lies the problem. No two players would agree on which skins belong to which category. So, you might end up with getting only the "garbage" options available for that new race, with all the ones you consider good being unavailable. What then?

>

>

>

Are you actually asking me? I already stated I prefer outfits anyway and if they only had garbage options, I'd use the outfits.

Unless you're proposing a what if where no outfits are available and only the armor skins I personally don't like, that is a rather outlandish attempt at a gotcha argument.

> @"DarcShriek.5829" said:

> > @"Thornwolf.9721" said:

> > > @"derd.6413" said:

> > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said:

> > > > > @"derd.6413" said:

> > > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said:

> > > > > > > @"ReinaSolo.5042" said:

> > > > > > > So, uh... Wrote this as an answer on the GW2 Reddit (adding some things on here though), hope you don't mind me also posting it here =X :

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Honestly, although I prefer to be pessimistic about this (optimism only brings disappointment =X...), I would love new races. And I think there are ways to make these work. Of course, I know little to nothing about all the work the devs have to do, so, welp, just giving out ideas that seem "reasonable" (and sorry by the way if I don't express myself correctly, English is not my first language T_T ) :

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > **1)**The race added would need to be one sharing the skeleton and animations (or most of it) with another race. We know for a fact that the Tengus have the same skeleton as Charr, and similar animations... I think ? I can't remember exactly =X. The Largos would also be pretty good candidates : I am pretty sure they have the same skeleton as humanoids such as Humans, Norns (for the females, I think ?) and Sylvari. I also remember very correctly that I was shocked at some point when I was doing the personal story, because my Norn and Sayeh did the exact same motion at the same time, you know, the animation where the right hand goes to the side of the head (probably ajusting the hair). And finally, last possible, the Kodan. When it comes to the animations, it would be pretty simple, since the two genders seem to have the sames, it also goes for the skeleton, which seem to be the same as male Norns. So, yeah, I think these would be the easier races to work on. I have seen people mentioning Quaggans, Skritts, Hyleks, Centaurs, Dwarfs... But the difference is too big in my opinion.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > **2)** Now that we can concentrate on a limited amount of races, let's think about how they could possibly get added to the game without having to do as much work as for the original five. There would be a pretty simple way, already done for classes (and maybe races too ?) in other video games : having the race start at a higher level. Like, 50-60, something along those lines, though I think 60 would be better. And still have personal story quests done especially for that race, and a starting map at level 60-70, along with a 70-80 one. With, of course, a main city, and all of those maps, along with a couple others, could be useful for whatever expansion would go with it.

> > > > > > > **The pros of doing things this way :** less personal story quests, and so, less dialogues unique to that race, less NPCs, and the ability to adjust the race's playable beginning with the current events. Not to mention : whole new, specific story for that race, even if for a few levels ! It would bring some freshness I think, and possibly get the attention of returning or new players.

> > > > > > > **The cons :**Thinking of the questions and quests, still having to make a main city, add dialogue for the past Living World Seasons and Expansions (...Would kinda be a paradox though... *Shrugs* Depend of the first mission, it could as well be a flashback pointing to our character being an ally of the Pact before HoT or something), although, only text may suffice for those cases, and voices for those can be added later on, though still not necessary.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > **3)**Now, the clothes issue. And here we see the importance of having a species with the same skeleton as an already existing one, allowing for easier adjusting of the armors and outfits ! I think the easiest one to do would be Largos, with their human-like proportions. Tengus and Kodans... Welp, Tengus, sharing the same skeleton as Charrs, would probably face the same clipping issues, unfortunately. And the Kodans do not exactly have the same morphology as Norns when it comes to the body either, needing more work, not to mention both Tengus and Kodans have very different heads. And with all the piece of armor and all the outfits avalaible in-game... Not to mention the Largos wings avalaible at the Gem store ! But then, when looking at the wiki, it is unclear if said wings are part of their anatomy or not... Anyway : cultural armor at least would be useful, along with some basic common pieces of armor, even if it means that some wouldn't be avalaible right off the bat.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > **4)** And of course : this would need to be added in an expansion, not as free to play content. All of the above merged is a lot of work, and would totally deserve to be paid enough ! I know I won't make friends with saying this : but I would be happier to help support the game and the team with buying such an expansion instead of the special mount skins.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Now, if you allow me, I'll take cover in case I offended anyone since it seems to be quite a sensitive topic ^^'...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Tengu got a huge model upgrade in HoT and were intended to be playable but the playerbase as well the Dev's did not want a bunch of Tengu rev's, So the dev's decided to hold off and add them at a later date. Tengu are Done and they even have customization shown in the Videos By That_Shaman on youtube from the days HoT was being Datamined. So The tengu are logical choices if ever they were to add a new race due to their new models, new animations and new depths that have been added to them as well their voice actor recently just finished his role as Illidan in WoW for the time being (Males had Illidans voice.) So all we need now is a female tengu to appear and be voiced and we would have a stronger case than we already do.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > With all of Joko's shenanigans Id be surprised if the Tengu did not join in to help us since he has declared War on the world.

> > > > >

> > > > > the tengu were supposed to be playable at launch (but was cut because of time constraints fairly early) but never in hot. anet didn't want them in hot because adding rev was already a huge undertaking. tengu aren't done or anet would've released them already. they don't have customization they just have some extra models added for enemies and a guild hall NPC which is what we saw in that_shaman's video..

> > > >

> > > > > @"derd.6413" said:

> > > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said:

> > > > > > > @"ReinaSolo.5042" said:

> > > > > > > So, uh... Wrote this as an answer on the GW2 Reddit (adding some things on here though), hope you don't mind me also posting it here =X :

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Honestly, although I prefer to be pessimistic about this (optimism only brings disappointment =X...), I would love new races. And I think there are ways to make these work. Of course, I know little to nothing about all the work the devs have to do, so, welp, just giving out ideas that seem "reasonable" (and sorry by the way if I don't express myself correctly, English is not my first language T_T ) :

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > **1)**The race added would need to be one sharing the skeleton and animations (or most of it) with another race. We know for a fact that the Tengus have the same skeleton as Charr, and similar animations... I think ? I can't remember exactly =X. The Largos would also be pretty good candidates : I am pretty sure they have the same skeleton as humanoids such as Humans, Norns (for the females, I think ?) and Sylvari. I also remember very correctly that I was shocked at some point when I was doing the personal story, because my Norn and Sayeh did the exact same motion at the same time, you know, the animation where the right hand goes to the side of the head (probably ajusting the hair). And finally, last possible, the Kodan. When it comes to the animations, it would be pretty simple, since the two genders seem to have the sames, it also goes for the skeleton, which seem to be the same as male Norns. So, yeah, I think these would be the easier races to work on. I have seen people mentioning Quaggans, Skritts, Hyleks, Centaurs, Dwarfs... But the difference is too big in my opinion.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > **2)** Now that we can concentrate on a limited amount of races, let's think about how they could possibly get added to the game without having to do as much work as for the original five. There would be a pretty simple way, already done for classes (and maybe races too ?) in other video games : having the race start at a higher level. Like, 50-60, something along those lines, though I think 60 would be better. And still have personal story quests done especially for that race, and a starting map at level 60-70, along with a 70-80 one. With, of course, a main city, and all of those maps, along with a couple others, could be useful for whatever expansion would go with it.

> > > > > > > **The pros of doing things this way :** less personal story quests, and so, less dialogues unique to that race, less NPCs, and the ability to adjust the race's playable beginning with the current events. Not to mention : whole new, specific story for that race, even if for a few levels ! It would bring some freshness I think, and possibly get the attention of returning or new players.

> > > > > > > **The cons :**Thinking of the questions and quests, still having to make a main city, add dialogue for the past Living World Seasons and Expansions (...Would kinda be a paradox though... *Shrugs* Depend of the first mission, it could as well be a flashback pointing to our character being an ally of the Pact before HoT or something), although, only text may suffice for those cases, and voices for those can be added later on, though still not necessary.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > **3)**Now, the clothes issue. And here we see the importance of having a species with the same skeleton as an already existing one, allowing for easier adjusting of the armors and outfits ! I think the easiest one to do would be Largos, with their human-like proportions. Tengus and Kodans... Welp, Tengus, sharing the same skeleton as Charrs, would probably face the same clipping issues, unfortunately. And the Kodans do not exactly have the same morphology as Norns when it comes to the body either, needing more work, not to mention both Tengus and Kodans have very different heads. And with all the piece of armor and all the outfits avalaible in-game... Not to mention the Largos wings avalaible at the Gem store ! But then, when looking at the wiki, it is unclear if said wings are part of their anatomy or not... Anyway : cultural armor at least would be useful, along with some basic common pieces of armor, even if it means that some wouldn't be avalaible right off the bat.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > **4)** And of course : this would need to be added in an expansion, not as free to play content. All of the above merged is a lot of work, and would totally deserve to be paid enough ! I know I won't make friends with saying this : but I would be happier to help support the game and the team with buying such an expansion instead of the special mount skins.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Now, if you allow me, I'll take cover in case I offended anyone since it seems to be quite a sensitive topic ^^'...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Tengu got a huge model upgrade in HoT and were intended to be playable but the playerbase as well the Dev's did not want a bunch of Tengu rev's, So the dev's decided to hold off and add them at a later date. Tengu are Done and they even have customization shown in the Videos By That_Shaman on youtube from the days HoT was being Datamined. So The tengu are logical choices if ever they were to add a new race due to their new models, new animations and new depths that have been added to them as well their voice actor recently just finished his role as Illidan in WoW for the time being (Males had Illidans voice.) So all we need now is a female tengu to appear and be voiced and we would have a stronger case than we already do.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > With all of Joko's shenanigans Id be surprised if the Tengu did not join in to help us since he has declared War on the world.

> > > > >

> > > > > the tengu were supposed to be playable at launch (but was cut because of time constraints fairly early) but never in hot. anet didn't want them in hot because adding rev was already a huge undertaking. tengu aren't done or anet would've released them already. they don't have customization they just have some extra models added for enemies and a guild hall NPC which is what we saw in that_shaman's video..

> > > >

> > > > Yes but they are fairly close, alot closer than any of the other races who are not playable. They are the most requested and yes with Joko willing to attack everywhere and Anywhere I doubt they couldn't work them into the story at the moment. Joko has an Army and we don't the living world will build him up and the expansion coming will finish him like they did with balthazar... in that expansion id be surprised if the Tengu did not get involved Joko is a huge threat even to them, mainly because he does not care who has to die as long as he can achieve is goals.

> > >

> > > the problem of adding a new race was never the story. it was always and still is, the amount of work to have them live up to expectations (all armor skins need to fit, they need personal story, dialog, animations, starter maps, etc. etc.) and while it's true that the tengu has the most work done, when compared to the races that are already playable, it's still like saying "between these piles of sand this one is the closest to a mansion."

> >

> > No the personal story can be skipped as it means nothing at this point, make an instance the poops them out into the current expansion for example. "I was there when the commander fell, Their last words were for me to lead their guild to victory for they can no longer do so. " And there you go, you start at level 80 and just load into the new maps. You can clear the others but that's you're choice, you can't do anything before that with this character when it comes to vanilla and of course you can redo the old expansions and LW, but you wont get any specific speech or anything. Tengu can get their city, but the starting zones are moot as they will just be there with the current expansion, So no its not that much and its worth the investment as it could be a huge selling point.

>

> The personal story is a major chunk of content. It's not nothing. It may be nothing to you because you've played it, but it's not nothing to new players that haven't. To rob them of the experience of playing the personal story would be wrong.

>

>

> The entire argument on how to bring in a new race seems to center around the argument that second class development is ok. No, second class development is not ok. if you want crappy second rate development go play a game from EA.

I'd say it's easy to dismiss an option hypothetically, but in reality, if given the option of something vs nothing, it's not so easily dismissed then.

I'm not suggesting so called "second class races" but rather shortcuts can still bring a quality result.

My personal opinion, my background in MMOs comes from the older more tactical type of team play and cooperation (started in FFXI and CoH).

I see "active gameplay" as an inevitable goal until MMORPG mechanics are completely replaced with action combat gameplay. This has an effect on variety when one considered that, limitations are what create opportunity for varying play. Not saying action has no variety, it's just the shift changes from the variety of skills themselves to more standard high, mid, low and staying out of red circles.

I feel, the devs want to present a style of play that captures the players of your standard RPGs but keep the market for the action oriented player. The action oriented player wants a focus on the variety of challenges and the difficulty of the encounter while the standard RPGer wants variety in skills, effects and visuals. These things can be at odds (such as the over abundance of visuals obstructing the encounters). They are trying to balance something some players don't even realize is being balanced. But they end up just burning both bridges on the extreme ends (the hard core competitive pvper and the loyalist longtime pveer).

Personally speaking, I think those that feel there is a deep chasm between the players and the devs are those extremists on the ends because overall, the game and balance is rather smooth with only a few outliers. Either that, or maybe this era of games has a microscopic grade critical lens held to them than in the past since it's easier to find confirmation bias among the vocal minority that wish to complain but continue to play regardless.

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > > > There's a presumption in the thread that ANet has not considered the idea of "budget races," i.e. ones that have limited access to skins, dialogue, stories, or other aspects that interest players. In fact, ANet has explicitly said they won't do it this way: if there's going to be a new race or a new profession, it will be done to their high standards, not some sort of minimalist effort that pays lip service to the concept.

> > > > >

> > > > > Regardless of how the OP or others phrase it, a new race is an enormous amount of work. At best, we're discussing a reduction from "enormous" to "almost enormous." There's a huge list of mechanics that make up a new race and dropping a few of them won't reduce the cost enough to make up for the lost benefits. Drop too many and now we're not even looking at a new race in any sort of meaningful way.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Well, for one, Anet never indicated to what extent or quality standard. AFAIK, the way they described it was doing it "right". Even if we're to assume right means all qualities that the current races have, that isn't indicative of the quanity. So your argument against a presumption is a presumption of what Anet consided their standard of quality while making a presumption of what "budget races" means.

> > > >

> > > I'm pointing out that ANet has already considered the ideas at different levels and they have explicitly said they plan on not working on a new race or new profession any time soon. You're welcome to ignore what they said or to look for a loophole in their phrasing so you can hold on to the hope that we might see a new race before 2020.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > And I don't see anything wrong with having hope for something to be added that is desired. Considering such a feature is a staple to add to an MMO in its lifespan, it's not an unprecidented desire. So why try to attack hope? It's a rather bizarre stance to take on the topic, IMO.

>

> Misconstruing rhetoric isn't going to change the situation. The devs have said they aren't planning on adding a new race anytime soon, that's not a presumption. They haven't completely ruled it out, because they never rule anything out, not completely. They have, however, said, it doesn't fit into their plans because the cost of doing it well, by their standards (whatever they are) is at least comparable to the cost of continuing with expansions and living world in the current format. (And it adds to future maintenance costs in a number of ways.)

>

> As I have said many times, I'd love to have the chance to play another race. But I'm not expecting it to happen this decade.

>

> There's nothing wrong with hoping it could be otherwise, if that's what you want to do.

>

>

My problem with your response is how you misconstrue quality and quantity to try to counter what is being said. You still haven't actually addressed the points I made, just reiterate past comments by the devs.

And the only reason I commented about hope is because it was a more outlier response that I hadn't addressed. That is more of a targeted question for you than anyone else. You say you'd love a new race but you don't expect one any time soon. Congratulate! You share a common talking point of the OP and myself. It's kind of the point of the discussion. Now you could Segway to more discussion or double down on a non sequitur.

...granted, at this point, the discussion (or those that wished to discuss) have likely already said their piece and the ones who choose to argue them down have had their say. The question is, who convinced whom? The only thing I'm convinced of is posters on this forum get so defensive, they put themselves in a position to refuse discussion.

I never understood why Silver Doubloons were so scarce when silver is so abundant. Just make a mystic forge recipe with a chance of getting one.

> @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:

> Is Taken Three already taken?

> Perhaps, you could use Taken I I I, or Taken Ill (Capital I (eye), lowercase ll (ell, ell).

>

> Good luck.

Could say "capital i, lowercase L" for clarity.

Now hold up, guys! It's fine to have your own opinion but there's no reason to throw others under the "the world cup blows" bus!

C'mon, guys1

/sarcasm

> @"Ardid.7203" said:

> Obviously these are two wholly different ideas/themes. I was responding to it as an alternative to a new race altogether, but no thinking about it as a "budget" alternative.

That is the context I was replying to it in. I was making a point that such an idea might require reductions to certain aspects to it to make it more widely viable (yes, in the context of it being its own idea, not linked to any other suggested aspect of this thread).

> @"Ardid.7203" said:

> > @"Dantert.1803" said:

> > Do you guys think that for arenanet to focus on expanding on the already existing races would be better than having a new race?

> > Like for example adding more content and more racial armor sets to each race and a rework and expansion of the racial skills to make them actually useful would be interesting enough?

>

> I would actually love this. IMO it shouldn't prevent a new playable race from happening... but given the scenario of choosing between the two for the next expansion, I would indeed prefer to have more racial specific stories, emotes, customization alternatives, dialogs and couple of new cultural armor sets for each species. A rework to the racial skills to make them useful (like making 5 visually distinct cultural versions for the same skill mechanics we already have in game, so everyone get the same possible builds) would also be amazing for me.

It really is a whole other discussion, but if this thread is any indication, it's a discussion that won't go beyond "they need to do it exactly like the rest and not deviate whatsoever". Like, for instance, more racial specific stories (I personally would prefer profession specific stories, to also emphasize that your character is a(n)[insert profession] as well as an [insert race]...kind of to give a racial depiction of what the races feel about those professions...like we were told toward the beginning that Charr are weary of magic users...but it's never touched upon later). To make such a thing a reality, it might be better to look at what is desired from such a feature and what limitations come with it. Keeping with this example, a desire for such story additions might be dialog options with some branching results but voice acting and cutscenes might limit the feature. So why not discuss about losing spoken dialog for that? You'd hit a wall because no consideration is paid to that and dismissed because the rest of the story has spoken dialog and so should this.

> @"Diescream.8053" said:

> > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> >Well, the way I would prefer it, it wouldn't just be 1 race made available but 2-3.

>

> I think that would be a great idea. For example, the next xpac could be set in a new area with 3 new races to choose from. And their personal story would get you up to speed with the current events going on in the rest if the world.

>

> Only gem store items would need to be reworked to fit them. And instead of new weapons, we would get new skins: so a greataxe would actually just be a elite skin for a greatsword. Perhaps make it so equiping the skin changes only the name of the abilites, and their icons?

>

> They could even hold a contest where the community helps design the new armors for the new races, so more people are satified and fewer armors need to be created for the new races.

>

> - So same weapons, just elite skins that can also be used in the rest of the game.

> - New racial armors that the community helps design. Maybe add gem store items for the base races that want to wear them. And have another contest to see which base armor skins should be added to the gem store for the new races.

> - I don't really think the new races need to have access to previous LW events. Just hop on an alt for that.

>

> As for the base races:

> - Norn transformations should be their passive ability. No bonus stats or skills, just transform whenever they're in combat long enough. Same with asura, give them mech suits. And you can turn it off in the options menu.

> - The other racial skills should be rebalanced and made available to every race. That way there's no racial bias. Just more option for building your skill bar.

These are some interesting ideas I hadn't considered. The separate weapon skins would likely need to be accessible to every race though...the backlash of releasing a 2-handed axe for the new race and not everyone would be tremenous...but one aspect you could tailor for a new race would be animations for specific skins...like the scythe skins for staff, you can tailor the animations to favor scythe skin models.

Designing armors I could see not because it would aleviate any work, but because if old armor was the bottleneck for allowing players to submit designs, just create a *new* armor system for the new races that doesn't make the same mistakes as the old. What those mistakes and considerations are I am unsure but the current armor system might be too expanded to just patch it...so maybe a separate unique armor system could be a possible solution.

...I mean, the other option is just keep the system the same and make the devs work harder and pump out armor faster.

And if they made Norn transformation a passive transformation that turns on during combat while keeping your armor look and the ability to choose to turn it off temporarily or permanatly(or turn it on permanantly, for that matter), I might actually play Norn more.

> @"Dantert.1803" said:

> Do you guys think that for arenanet to focus on expanding on the already existing races would be better than having a new race?

> Like for example adding more content and more racial armor sets to each race and a rework and expansion of the racial skills to make them actually useful would be interesting enough?

Personally, I think it's better to expand races because it's not an either or game. You can do both. You do both and you open more avenues for monitization.

An idea I considered as a means to cover the cost of adding a single new race: have an account upgrade bundle that you can purchase that unlocks the new race. You might say many people might not buy it, so why not bundle the option with a specific "new character" upgrade, i.e. it unlocks all customization options in the total makeover kit at character creation + the new race as well. And so long as people choose not to delete their old characters (birthday gifts), and Anet keeps releasing new hair/face/etc options, people will still buy and use the total makeover kits. You literally didn't have to lose anything but get people to buy the new race anyway.

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> There's a presumption in the thread that ANet has not considered the idea of "budget races," i.e. ones that have limited access to skins, dialogue, stories, or other aspects that interest players. In fact, ANet has explicitly said they won't do it this way: if there's going to be a new race or a new profession, it will be done to their high standards, not some sort of minimalist effort that pays lip service to the concept.

>

> Regardless of how the OP or others phrase it, a new race is an enormous amount of work. At best, we're discussing a reduction from "enormous" to "almost enormous." There's a huge list of mechanics that make up a new race and dropping a few of them won't reduce the cost enough to make up for the lost benefits. Drop too many and now we're not even looking at a new race in any sort of meaningful way.

>

>

Well, for one, Anet never indicated to what extent or quality standard. AFAIK, the way they described it was doing it "right". Even if we're to assume right means all qualities that the current races have, that isn't indicative of the quanity. So your argument against a presumption is a presumption of what Anet consided their standard of quality while making a presumption of what "budget races" means.

I'm sure you're a decent communicator but if your goal is to sway those you're discussing with you should probably use an offensive argument against the suggestion rather than a defensive one. The ones that need to be making defensive arguments are those defending their investment or interests. Unless you're a shareholder in the company and have a vested interest in the return capital you get on your investment, what ground of the debate do you secure by cementing the portion of work and manhours involved at all? I mean, if your goal is to shift the dialog away from attacking the core idea toward your own presumptious argument, then sure, but why would you want to give up an offensive stance to take a defensive one?

> @"Rasimir.6239" said:

> Even if I don't play it myself I'll end up being "treated" to characters of the new race everywhere I play with or alongside other players, and would have to live with seeing minimum skin variety, hearingborrowed voices or whatever other suggested cut would come into play.

Meh, not all that different from currently having your screen and graphics card assaulted by the layers upon layers of brightly colored glowie particle FX, auras, flashy wings/mounts, etc. Unless that is your thing, a race that might be missing some of that is no more an affont on anyone than a subset of people that choose to only wear basic armor or only use battle tonics.

> @"Rasimir.6239" said:

> Now if ANet on the other hand would pour the resources needed for a new, restricted race into greater variety to choose from with existing races (new, radically different faces, hairstyles, bodytypes, colours, possibly even voices), that would be right up my alley. That way I could create new characters that look and feel different from the ones I already have without being restricted in areas I've come to enjoy as strong points of this game.

Even if they were to do that, as above, so much of the game's aesthetic covers up a lot of the options that are distinct and customizable that can be noticed at a fairly close distance.

> @"Rasimir.6239" said:

> One thing I don't understand: why would you want a new race if you restrict its visuals, story, or any of the other cuts suggested? What is it that will give you the feeling of getting something new and worthwhile?

Personally? Because I think about 40% of the armor is gaudy garbage. If they were to cut most of the available armor for a new race to only specific distinct pieces (or just all together) and keep outfits (which I think about 20% is gaudy garbage, 40% is great looking and the other 40% is kinda meh but distinct enough to have a purpose to wear on certain occasions) I would be perfectly fine limiting the layered clothing for any new races because the game has nowhere to go but introduce more clothing options down the line anyway. To me, pouting that a new race wouldn't have everything all at once is like pouting that a restaurant doesn't bring your whole meal + dessert to your table at the same time they bring you your appetizers and free chips/salsa.

As for everything else, this thread isn't about restricting anything but visuals connected directly to customizability. Not voice. Not story. Just customizability.

> @"Dante.1763" said:

> > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > So looking at the poll results, we should have *fewer* race choices?

>

> Looks like a fair split to me, with the exception of norn.

It was a tongue in cheek response. Most people that consider the statistics of higher human player characters is a sticking point against adding new player race options.

So looking at the poll results, we should have *fewer* race choices?

Haven't read the thread but judging from the title, have you played many MMOs at launch? I'd say all of them end up hitting some roadblock or issue that "ruins" the game. Just give it time.

No reason to blame (or credit) a game for the appeal to another. If Bless Online (lol when will they stop putting "online" behind their titles? so 2009...) is like any other newly launched MMO, they will fix some of their issues and add new appeal to their launch and those that flocked away in disgust will migrate back.

> @"Turin.6921" said:

> > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > Anyone joining their venture are likely pro-capitalist by principal they are trying to make more money and compete in open market. But just like you probably wouldn't want GW2 to come out supporting white nationalists in the US,

>

> I would not like them to support white nationalism cause I consider it a destructive ideology. And i would have reacted accordingly. But it would becuase of my disagreement with that specific idea. Not cause I disagree with the general idea of political expression of a private organization. They would not be disrespecting anyone's individuality by expressing that.

>

> They are free to express this as a company and i have the right to support or criticize accordingly.

>

> >no one wants unrelated politics pressured on them from other bands and companies.

>

> As long as there are humans involved there will be politics involved. The human being is a political animal by its social nature. Only as a hermit (maybe) you can be apolitical.

And only in today's environment would people support bringing everyone's politics to the foreground so every aspect of their choices, products or services can be judged by the aggregate opinion that flows through the fickle platform of social media.

You may see keeping your political views to applicable circumstances as being a hermit, but on the opposite end of the spectrum, taking pics of your food and constantly updating every aspect of your life online is the embodiment of narcissism. There is literally no reason everything has to be political unless you just want to aggregate your view on everything.

> @"Edelweiss.4261" said:

> The idea of "keeping politics out of the game" is simply silly. Everything is political. If something doesn't seem political to you, then that's because you agree with its politics.

I disagree. I feel there is a difference between political motifs portrayed for the sake of a narrative and reflecting actual political views. Just because a game portrays, for example, conservative highlights like in the newest Farcry game, doesn't mean the makers support the same views or that it's a commentary on current day or any other jazz gaming journalists want to conjure to make a subject political. At that point, it's not the game or the company being political, it's the individuals interpreting the media.

Everything is political when you want to see everything as political. It really isn't, tho.

> @"Turin.6921" said:

> > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> >A company or non-political collaborative venture should be apolitical and pro-capitalistic so as to respect the views of its employees and customers as well as maximize the market pool.

>

> But being pro-capitalist is being political. It is a socio-economic and political viewpoint. Making money is also an agenda.

>

> A company being pro-capitalist would not infringe and would not be disrespectful to an employee that might have socialist values, as long as these values are clear beforehand. They same way a code of conduct is not infringing on the view of any employee as long as it is honestly expressed before hand.

>

Okay. Then they should be apolitical to viewpoints not pertaining directly to their venture.

Anyone joining their venture are likely pro-capitalist by principal they are trying to make more money and compete in open market. But just like you probably wouldn't want GW2 to come out supporting white nationalists in the US, no one wants unrelated politics pressured on them from other bands and companies. It just makes them subject to bans, boycotts, slander and socio-political dissonance.

> @"Turin.6921" said:

> A company and any collaborative venture can have a code of conduct and common values in which they operate. Thus they can take a political stance collectively without necessarily infringing on the individuality of the members.

And it does more harm than good. A company or non-political collaborative venture should be apolitical and pro-capitalistic so as to respect the views of its employees and customers as well as maximize the market pool. Individuals more interested in pushing an agenda likely aren't as interested in making money, improving their company and attracting more customers.

> @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > > > @"Aodlop.1907" said:

> > > > I don't mind gay and trans people as individuals.

> > > > I do despise the LGBT movement though.

> > > >

> > > > I'm pretty sure people who used to like or at least tolerate gay people started disliking them because of the LGBT movement. So sick if this propaganda. As if the whole "help refugees" thing in PoF wasn't enough.

> > >

> > > I'm curious, what is it about the movement that you despise?

> >

> > Likely that people with tolerance are constantly tested and pressured because LGBT(and all its additional letters and symbols) is constantly lumped in with any and all other groups of "marginalized" peoples to form a collective of cognative dissonant outcry over what mostly amounts to nothing. We don't need a pride month in western civilized countries just like we don't need a black history month in the US.

>

> I actually can't say that I wholly disagree with this assessment, and, being gay, I very frequently get annoyed by the degree to which other gay people operate from an assumption of victimhood all the time, which is also true of pretty much every other minority group, because it's the version of reality they're constantly bombarded with from left-wing media and not because it's actual objective reality in most case.

>

> That said, I would not discount that marginalization is still a thing in the US, though - many gays grow up in families and social environments where they have their psychology warped and scarred through internalization of homophobia by religious nutjobs and outdated ideas of masculinity and femininity. This is why it became an identity and organically transformed into a social movement in the mid 20th century. It's just that it's starting to become oudated for where we are now.

>

> As someone who is liberal, I still think there's a strong argument to be made that identity politics is corrosive and causing more problems than it's solving. This is especially noteworthy since most of the problems that actually need solving at this point are economic in nature and not social, so it can start acting as a barrier to actual progress.

As a centrist, I wouldn't discount marginalized groups either, but in the perspective of society as a whole, any marginalization that takes place can be overcome by the individual. And any marginalization that occurs that an individual cannot overcome, the majority sees as an infringement of freedom and oppressive and will collectively quash it. As a black man, it was more destructive to me overall to consume that my "group" was being marginalized or oppressed or attacked and until I took in more perspectives understood that it's the individual who must take responsibility for their lives and how they react to those around them. I'm sure it's tough for homosexuals growing up in strict religious or homophobic communities but everyone has their individual hardships that they must overcome. I suppose it depends on individual ego to judge whose hardship is harder to overcome which is likely the root of my distaste for most identity politics.

> @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > @"Aodlop.1907" said:

> > I don't mind gay and trans people as individuals.

> > I do despise the LGBT movement though.

> >

> > I'm pretty sure people who used to like or at least tolerate gay people started disliking them because of the LGBT movement. So sick if this propaganda. As if the whole "help refugees" thing in PoF wasn't enough.

>

> I'm curious, what is it about the movement that you despise?

Likely that people with tolerance are constantly tested and pressured because LGBT(and all its additional letters and symbols) is constantly lumped in with any and all other groups of "marginalized" peoples to form a collective of cognative dissonant outcry over what mostly amounts to nothing. We don't need a pride month in western civilized countries just like we don't need a black history month in the US.