Leo G.4501

I like it =)

It's a nice mix of content, I wish we were actually getting something like this in another year plus some change.

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"Rikimaru.7890" said:

> > Ok let's assume we get a new race like Tengu, so how are we going to introduce them to the story now?

>

> Add them to the Expansion. Simple Enough, and just put a Trade NPC that awards them all the LW stuff till the most recent chapter, and closes it off to the new race. It's not that hard really.

>

> > Assuming a new race is intoduced after LW4 with EXPAC3 how is a Tengu character suppose to correlate with the story from that point?

> > I mean how are they suppose to be the **Pact Commander** without ever taking part in the war with Zhaitan?

> > Or how are they suppose to have the **special bond with Aurene** without taking part in LW2 or HoT storylines?

> > Not to mention **how would this new character know any of the past events that effect the current story or have same relations with all the characters we met?**

> > Even if this was somehow made possible then what about doing all those previous part of the story?

> > Like you decide to do the war with Zhaitan? **You would be literally time traveling into the past then.**

>

>

> Umm the same way my Asura that has not done a single Personal Story episode beyond the Newb Starter Event, the ONLY HoT they have done is Unlocking the Maps to the Expansion, and now just magically fits into the PoF story, when I needed to unlock those maps as well.

>

> With all the memories and whatever.. linked to them.

>

> _Poof_ **Magic** Happens.

>

> Again.. this is not hard.

>

> > **But even if somehow we could solve all those continuity problems there would still be other problems.** Like the new race would require their own starter areas i.e. a new city and a 1-15 level area of their own **which would have to become part of current central tyria map.** Also all armour sets would need a redesign to accomodate the new race.

>

> You mean like how my Asura Warrior talks about being a pact commander and killing, not one.. but two.. dragons.. and.. yet.. they never did any of those things?

>

> Somehow I went from Zojia as a mentor to Timi as a sidekick.. and all these people I know nothing about.. but.. hey.. it's the story, even if I didn't do any of it, I'll just roll with it.

>

> This is not really an issue, and is going on all the time in the game itself.

>

> > So get over it, no new race, it's not happening, not now, not with 3rd expac, not ever, got it?

>

> That is not for you to say.

>

> But it would pretty easy to do.

You know, I never thought of it that way...

I mean, I have but never considered it in the logical perspective. As is, I only have 3 characters who completed the entire original personal story while all the others either stuck in the prior to orders era or just before Clawr Island then skipped right into HoT or PoF or current LW. In fact, out of all my characters, only 1 is *ACTUALLY* the Pact Commander and all the others are just other members of the pact who helped in some fashion. They know the rest of Destiny's Edge and Dragon Watch by proxy of each other being friends or acquaintances. But all of that is basically my own headcanon. In reality, there are all these characters with mixed involvement in the story, some areas locked and so forth...it's a mess of a timeline.

So yeah, all the devs really have to do is write a personal story that is present time that then transitions over to the plot at hand and let the player iron out the details.

To keep things in perspective of someone overseeing possible improvements to the game, this thread is extremely contradictory thus most of the feedback from this is likely going to be brushed off. You have some saying this or that is dumb while another says it's fine, or this and that is too hard while another says its easy. It's taking personal opinion multiple steps out of bounds that it's difficult to distill any semblance of direction from what should be discussed (and coming from a poster who often times plays devil's advocate in topics, it's pretty split to the extreme).

This all just seems like spinning wheels in mud if neither end of the conversation is either willing to put down the hyperbole stick or give some metric to gauge their perspective from.

> @"Rikimaru.7890" said:

> Ok let's assume we get a new race like Tengu, so how are we going to introduce them to the story now?

>Assuming a new race is intoduced after LW4 with EXPAC3 how is a Tengu character suppose to correlate with the story from that point?

>I mean how are they suppose to be the **Pact Commander** without ever taking part in the war with Zhaitan?

>Or how are they suppose to have the **special bond with Aurene** without taking part in LW2 or HoT storylines?

>Not to mention **how would this new character know any of the past events that effect the current story or have same relations with all the characters we met?**

>Even if this was somehow made possible then what about doing all those previous part of the story?

>Like you decide to do the war with Zhaitan? **You would be literally time traveling into the past then.**

Well, for one, the main character is kind of not the Pact Commander. Mainly just in title, the main character just does their own thing. Even if the title was so ingrained in the dialog that it would cause issue, there is more than one commander within an army. Since no one refers to the main character specifically as "Pact Commander", the title can be bestowed to anyone who holds an officer position over a subset of soldiers.

In which case, if a new race's personal story works in some plot facing dragon minions (can be specific to the race) and thus is given enough leadership time to be bestowed the rank of a Battalion Commander or Brigade Commander, they will be a commander.

If that were to occur, we'd likely get more intimate knowledge of precedence of rank and file of the Pact, maybe learn about other prominent figures or their deeds and why they are relevent and enrich the characters and world the story takes place in. None of that requires backtracking to HoT or Zhaitan, btw.

As for the special bond with Aurene: is it important? AFAICS, it's not that relevent of a plot point. Not only that, but I don't believe Aurene has to be tethered to a specific character to fulfill her role in the plot, but rather a group of people, which she is. Once she matures enough that she can tap into anyone's mind, the link between the Pact Commander and Aurene won't be as necessary of a plot point.

As for knowing past events, which are relevent to the plot? And at the same time, which are used to deduce plans going forward by the main character specifically? AFAICS, the main character is more a backboard for the other cast of characters to shoot and bounce off of that is then guided to the hoop. You could almost change just the main character's dialog to ignorance and still get the same voice acting from the other cast explaining the situation to your knowledgable or unknowledgable main character.

As for relations, what relations? Beyond knowing your face but never saying your name, the only one I can think of is Braham who is being uppity with you for not being a ball of tears when his mommy died.

As for deciding to do the Zhaitan arc with a new race: you can't. Simple as that. To make sure you didn't miss that plot point though, I'd probably put the new race behind an achievement for completing the Personal Story up to the end of Zhaitan. If you'd want to play the new race on that older content, party with a friend and join their instances.

> @"Rikimaru.7890" said:

> **But even if somehow we could solve all those continuity problems there would still be other problems.** Like the new race would require their own starter areas i.e. a new city and a 1-15 level area of their own **which would have to become part of current central tyria map.** Also all armour sets would need a redesign to accomodate the new race.

> **Not to mention all the voice acting that would have to be done and redone just for it to work.**

> You are basically asking ANET to flip the whole game upside down just because you want a new look, despite the fact all 5 races have only a cosmetic difference really.

> **So a new one would be the same and you expect ANET to go through all those problems just for that.**

>

Anet makes new zones nearly every LW update, making 1 little city zone isn't that daunting but frankly it isn't even necessary if it is. Don't want to open up Dominion of Winds for Tengu? Make an embassy in Lion's Arch (only requires editing an existing area). You don't need to make a new starting area if, for example, the new race is automatically bumped to lvl 50 or 80 or whatever. If that is too much, using older zones is not a sin.

Already outlined how re-voicing the old stuff won't be needed. The main point of contention is what would be done with the Armor and how robust the individual content will be.

> @"Rikimaru.7890" said:

> So get over it, no new race, it's not happening, not now, not with 3rd expac, not ever, got it?

>

> There's absolutely no reason why ArenaNet should adapt all old armor skins for new races. That's not going to happen, they'll just adapt the important ones, and leave the rest out, locked like cultural armor. Just like GW1.

>

Please reply to my rebuttal. I'm curious what your response would be.

Sounds like a bad team, to me.

Granted, I don't think a team needs to bend over backward to help newbies but they should have told you what you were getting into before starting...at the very least, asked if you needed help.

Just going to tell you that many players that run dungeons have ran them many times over. That's not to intimidate you but just inform you that if you got into a group that just jumps in and you don't know what to do, just that you need to tell them you've never ran the dungeon before. Some are willing to help and teach and others are not. If you run into the latter, it's best you drop the team and look for another.

Overall, the dungeons are a spike in difficulty but they aren't that tough and just require a little persistence. Once you've learned a bit about the encounters, they can be quite fun, just don't be too quick to judge them.

Thinking back to City of Heroes, it was an amazing time when they introduced the ability to scale the instanced content. With this feature you had nearly full control of the enemies you'd face: you could make the enemies +/- your current level up to, I want to say -3 and upwards to +5(?), you could scale the spawn sizes from 1-person team spawns (the smallest) to max-team size (would spawn a certain amount of mobs per team member), you could make it so Lieutenants or Bosses spawned or not (I'd equate them to Vets and Elites from GW2) and if you wanted to downscale final Archvillains/Heroes (rather than max HP/regen and mez resistance, you could limit them to downgraded AV/Hero which were more suceptible to mez or in some cases, downgrade them to bosses).

One thing I'm not fond of in the story missions are all the achievements that require you to do really specific tasks that might require many resets. Not saying all of them are bad, just the ones that specifically require you to replay things over and over. But what if some of those repetative achievements were exchanged for running the mission scaled to a higher team size/difficulty? You know, give a bit more weight to them as team content? On the other hand, open up scaling so you can downgrade certain mobs/mechanics to make them easier to traverse for newer players?

It's all about accessibility and variety. Of course, scaling those other instanced story content would require more than just swapping in Elites or some such. Scaling them to add more party aspects to them would be required.

> @"Torolan.5816" said:

> I won´t even argue about the arguments against a new race, they are all true. Anet backed themselves right in the corner from the get go in that question with their custom face to face talk videos instead of just having all happening in the instance itself.

>

> To avoid exploding costs for such stuff in general, I personally would have just hired a common voice actor not the supposed stars people here like so much. Just one person for the male voice, and one person for the female voice. Pick a celebrity imitator if you so direly insist on having the norn female differ in talking style from the asura, these people can modulate thier voices high and low.

>

> To avoid story issues, just block the new race from any stories.

>

> To avoid continuity problems, that ship has long ago sailed anway with frozen maps and the introduction of revenants.

Agreed. I think there are other factors that get in the way as well. Considering that a lot of AAA MMOs that limit the amount of voiced lines of your player character should be another indicator of the box they put themselves in (I don't even think FFXIV has a voiced character and I don't think it detracts from the story at all) or that Blade and Soul has zero player voiced character BUT also has voice selection so your character can have a bit of extra variety from another character of your race/class besides just how they look.

Then there's the armor. GW2 uses 7 anchor points for custom armor. This can seem like a good thing (it's not inherently bad), but when creating armor sets, making them fit together in around the same places as other armor sets becomes an issue and even moreso when you vary the body types as wildly as GW2 does. In a straight-up armor design contest with FFXIV, I don't think it's much of a contest that FFXIV beats GW2 hands down likely because they have only 3 main body structures to make armor for (male, female and potato sack) and with 6 anchor points (head, body, hands, waist, legs and feet...technically some jewelry can be seen on some armor too) . It's good because they kept it simple. Blade and Soul went a different route, despite only really have 4 body structures (male, thick male, female and loli) they still introduce lots of variety through their character sliders and race/sex-specific armor and they kept the quality of their gear by simply keeping the armor mechanics simple (they only really have outfits with some expensive custom outfit support). While I won't say GW2's armor looks bad, it has fewer examples of versatility or impulse purchase material (it's hard to buy something on impulse when it looks very similar to another set of armor but with different glowie bits on it). The outfits are a different story tho, IMO.

I think the point of all of that was, rather than looking at adding races as just an insurmountable goal that won't ever happen, we could alternatively be looking at aspects from the feature that would be most desired and how those things can be achieved. Some have mentioned battle tonics, and while I think this is the most unfavorable avenue for new races, it *IS* still an option and do-able...similarly, if they went further and made them similar to other races but limited them to outfits, that is also an option.

> @"Endless Soul.5178" said:

> Was I the only one to leave that Caudecus fight fully clothed? Yes, it was a bit difficult, but somehow my old, fumbly fingers managed to handle it.

>

> _~shrugs~_

I remember when I first fought him on my Daredevil and for all intents and purposes, it should have been an easy fight but I kept getting knocked around and wittled down, I just kept getting downed until I paid more attention to patterns. Going back into the fight but with a Deadeye instead, the fight should have been so much harder but it was actually easier to control as my DE build has more stealth than my DD.

Fighting all those White Mantle missions with my Soulbeast, Spellbreaker, Guardian and Firebrand, once you now what the enemy will throw at you, you can swap skills to counter them. Some professions are easier than others but it's only difficult if you're being stubborn.

My advice to those players that are fed up, take a break. GW2 will still be here when you get back. It's not as bad as you think it is lol

> @"Endless Soul.5178" said:

> > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:

> > Here’s what O’Brien said

> >

> > >[GW2 meet and greet](:https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/6vuuzx/gw2_community_meetgreet_event_report_and_news/)

> >

> > >I asked whether they have even considered adding a new race for PoF. Mike said that no and then added that new races in GW2 are "not impossible but very unlikely" to appear in the future. Implementing them would require a lot of resources that can be spent better on creating new content relevant for all players.

> >

> > So, not impossible but a new race is very unlikely as the resources are better spent elsewhere.

>

> Thank you JAFW, I remember this statement floating around somewhere. Of course, there will be those that analyze every letter in that statement and argue that that wasn't what Mike meant.

>

> Case closed as far as I'm concerned.

You say it's analyzing every letter, and I'm saying it's just context. The quote asked about new races *for PoF*. Of course we already knew that they were using resources toward the content relevent to PoF so none of that quote is particularly surprising.

If you're of the perspective that alterations to facilitate more custom options for player characters as non-relevent for all players, then yes, case closed. I'm not of that opinion, however, and feel that it can certainly be relevent to all players....or are the devs still chasing after e-sports? If so, then yeah, new races/content would be irrelevent to e-sports lol.

Remember the playerbase's reaction when SAB, the live-action ad and the whole retro-game trend of that year rolled out onto GW2 the 1st time?

It was truly a sight to behold.

> @"Yamazuki.6073" said:

> > @"Samnang.1879" said:

> > thats what yall said about mounts, and here they are

>

> Mounts were introduced to be monetized, not only were they a main part of the expansion (which you have to pay for), but they also sell skins for it (which is also paid for). This means the cost put into developing the mounts could be paid for overtime and become profitable, profit is the whole point of business, it isn't a charity. On the other hand, a new race comes with significantly higher cost, with no real way of monetizing for it beyond people changing their appearance. The amount of people who would play said new race(s) are rather low if you look at race popularity among not just GW2 but every single MMORPG that has human archetypes and non-humans. Then finally, a new race not being added, or added, isn't a large determining factor in whether people play the game, quit, or stay, nor is it standard practice to add more when there's already a few options; meanwhile just about every single game has mounts and a million skins for them, and mounts are a clear way to earn income that aligns with ArenaNet's vision of "non pay to win monetization".

>

> If people want more customization, it makes more sense to just ask for improvements on the current system, which would appeal to a much larger group than those who want a new race only to drop it later and ask for another one when it becomes "old".

The caveat to your point about the amount of human characters vs the amount of another non-human character across this and other MMOs is it can be a misleading statistic to base an argument on. It is a fact that there are more human characters than there are Charr characters, but that's only telling half the story. There are reasons why people choose to play a human character just like there are reasons people choose to not play a human character, which is the actual purpose of race choice when customizing a character...those players want something *other* than human...which is why they will play a Charr OR an Asura OR a Sylvari...(or a Norn, I suppose). The target audience of a new race isn't the individuals who want birbs and only birbs (Tengu), it's aimed at the majority of players that want to play something other than human-looking characters.

And don't get it twisted. I doubt many players are opposed to more races. Most just argue that it would require a lot (too many) resources, which is far and away from saying that it has less appeal than adding a handful of skins to the pool of conflicting skin options.

> @"TheQuickFox.3826" said:

> I would appreciate some more revealing armor choices for males indeed. The sunspear outfit is a good step in the right direction but only for pay.

> 

>

> And for the rest it would be nice to have some more revealing armors that do not have bones hanging from it. A few stylish choices would be very welcome as light armor.

I do like the *concept* of the sunspear outfit, I just don't like the skirt. I know the concept includes a similar aspect but it poofs out too far from the body. In reality, the leather straps that make up such a costume would have weight and touch the body and shift with your movement.

This game has made me appreciate being able to see my character's legs, hips and waist because so many of the skins cover up the area in some fashion.

As for the topic, I don't think its about showing skin, just showing the body. More costumes that follow the contours of the body...

> @"Martimus.6027" said:

> These are virtual items.

>

> Their production cost only has to be paid, really, once as the artists create them.

>

> What many games with in-game shops fail to realize, is that if they lower their prices, they will make far more sales. It's the entire reason Wal-Mart became a thing. They lowered prices on just about everything, and now when people go into the store, they buy more than just that one item they came to get.

Difference there is Wal-mart is selling tangible goods. Food, clothes, shoes, hardware, electronics....you cannot compare that to Gem Store goods, all items that are not only intangible, but purely optional and provide no welfare attributes to them, i.e. you *want* people to buy more food and clothes because it improves the welfare of those that buy them....buying more skins or bank slots really is only funneling money away from people.

You might be right and people would purchase more goods from the gem store because its cheap, but many of those people would have bought stuff anyway. And, to be frank, if you're simple enough to buy more and more just because its cheap, you're being preyed upon when likely you should be saving your money anyway. So coming from my humanitarian side and not my industry consideration side, you're advocating for Anet to take advantage of the poorer individuals that play the game.

> @"Martimus.6027" said:

> Game devs aren't really very good economists (and I seriously doubt they have a hired economic theorist on staff to suggest the prices of these items).

>

> If they would reduce the price of literally everything on their store by HALF, the amount of money made would just explode, especially considering that these are virtual items that don't run out and have a one time production cost.

I always assumed that at least Anet are self aware that cosmetics have a diminishing return. If you have a billion different skins, adding a few hundred more will not net you as much money as if you had only 500 different skins and you added 5 more. That isn't to say adding more skins is bad, just that selling them like gum on the street corner is going to lower their inherent value as you add more in the future. They can't just lower prices by half because that's lowering all prices in the future by half while also saturating options. Saturated options is less incentive to buy more things thus you end up with releasing boat loads of cosmetics for pennies that only a few handful of individuals care about.

> @"crepuscular.9047" said:

> > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > @"crepuscular.9047" said:

> > > > @"ProtoGunner.4953" said:

> > > > > @"crepuscular.9047" said:

> > > > > > @"ProtoGunner.4953" said:

> > > > > > I often read they have 'too few resources', 'too many skins to re-do'. People should think outside of the box. There are numerous ways to circumvent this. Either you just don't give them a vast amount of old skins and/or you give them some race specific skins only for this race. Problem solved.

> > > > >

> > > > > that is precisely the point, if anet only do a few, it will open up pandora's box, people will whine about not enough skins, after all it's Fashion Wars 2

> > > >

> > > > Sure, there are always people who will complain, but ultimately you have to go a way which results in the least complaining. I am not sure whether this is the right way, but at least it's an effort.

> > >

> > > the right way would be not creating new race, spend those time creating new skins for gem store so we can fund them for the next expansion ;)

> >

> > I'd call that complacency. Expecting to just pile on more flashy skins to unlock and expecting people to just keep buying into it.

> >

> > Saying that that is the right way would be like saying the devs should have just kept releasing unlimited gathering tools and keep raking in money. No, that's complacency. Instead, they looked at ways to enhance the wardrobe system and add functionality to it to facilitate players buying more of the tools.

> >

> > I'm not going to say making new races is the "right" way, but just pushing out more and more skins without any other considerations to expand features isn't the right way.

>

> a new race isn't a feature, it's cosmetic, just like new skins, but with no monetary attach to it; it will have additional maintenance cost attached to it.

> say it takes 1 day to create and tweak a skin to make it pretty for a race's male + female variation, it will take 5 days for the current 5 races, throwing in extra race mean for every new skin they release in the future it will cost them 1 extra day

>

1. A new race doesn't have to be just cosmetic. In fact, I'd prefer it weren't.

2. It can be monetized.

3. Argue against it all you like.

Threatening the devs by saying I'm not going to buy more of their skins is pointless. I'd rather speak with my wallet by suggesting to them what I *will* spend money on. Far more constructive.

> @"crepuscular.9047" said:

> > @"ProtoGunner.4953" said:

> > > @"crepuscular.9047" said:

> > > > @"ProtoGunner.4953" said:

> > > > I often read they have 'too few resources', 'too many skins to re-do'. People should think outside of the box. There are numerous ways to circumvent this. Either you just don't give them a vast amount of old skins and/or you give them some race specific skins only for this race. Problem solved.

> > >

> > > that is precisely the point, if anet only do a few, it will open up pandora's box, people will whine about not enough skins, after all it's Fashion Wars 2

> >

> > Sure, there are always people who will complain, but ultimately you have to go a way which results in the least complaining. I am not sure whether this is the right way, but at least it's an effort.

>

> the right way would be not creating new race, spend those time creating new skins for gem store so we can fund them for the next expansion ;)

I'd call that complacency. Expecting to just pile on more flashy skins to unlock and expecting people to just keep buying into it.

Saying that that is the right way would be like saying the devs should have just kept releasing unlimited gathering tools and keep raking in money. No, that's complacency. Instead, they looked at ways to enhance the wardrobe system and add functionality to it to facilitate players buying more of the tools.

I'm not going to say making new races is the "right" way, but just pushing out more and more skins without any other considerations to expand features isn't the right way.

> @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > > > @"Lancaeron.1524" said:

> > > > To all of you saying NO to Centaurs...look at the long-since-dead MMO, Shadowbane.... It had Centaurs as a playable race!!!

> > >

> > > If you want to use another game's example to justify the addition....probably a good idea to NOT use one that can be described as, "long-since-dead."

> >

> > It's not justification, it's proof that it can be done.

> >

> >

>

> Yes, and when your only listed proof is a failure it does not do a good job of proving anything.

>

> I am not opposed, would be willing to spend money on additional race options in fact, but that particular attempt was a bit off.

That the game died doesn't disprove that it was done.

4+4= 8 was on my math test. Just because I failed my math test doesn't mean that 4+4 doesn't equal 8.

EDIT: FYI, the argument against a centaur race is that various cosmetic and animation limitations means it can't be done. If all you have to prove is that it can be done...

> @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > @"Lancaeron.1524" said:

> > To all of you saying NO to Centaurs...look at the long-since-dead MMO, Shadowbane.... It had Centaurs as a playable race!!!

>

> If you want to use another game's example to justify the addition....probably a good idea to NOT use one that can be described as, "long-since-dead."

It's not justification, it's proof that it can be done.

> @"infrequentia.3465" said:

> > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > @"infrequentia.3465" said:

> > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > Yah Druid 1 with staff, Mesmer 1 with GS, Necro 1 with scepter or axe, those are the most that make no sense to me and then you see classes like Dragonhunter LB where every skill except for 5 is a projectile or thief with pistol/rifle all projectiles. I don't get it... Its like they decided, hey these classes for ranged should have insane handicaps for no reason.

> > > >

> > > > Also yah Coalescence of ruin on Revenant Hammer, compare that to Dragonhunter True shot on Longbow, less damage, less hits. TS is a projectile you have to stand still for 1 sec to use, while CoR is almost invisible to the eye in a zerg, and can't be reflected/absorbed by ranged projectile blockers and can be used while moving.

> > >

> > > it seems to me you have not a single clue what a projectile is

> > >

> > > a freaking earth shattering skill is not a projectile.

> > >

> > > a arrow shot from a bow is a projectile

> > >

> > >

> > > a beam from a sword is not a projectile its a BEAM

> > > a beam from a staff is not a projectile its a BEAM

> > >

> > > meteor showers are not projectiles there freaking meteors

> > >

> > > but all these skill can be blocked or dodged

> >

> > yah but not reflected, or absorbed, why not?

>

> because there not projectiles how hard is that to grasp.

>

> you can't reflect a sword slash either

I think the argument is, if you're arguing from a logical standpoint of bouncing something back, a beam can also be bounced back in a logical world.

All things considered, I don't think it'd be bad to introduce other mechanics or emphasize current mechanics to create a sense of parity. For example, the concept of "counters" exists with some skills which punish melee skills but also work on ranged type of attacks so what if there were better stronger skills that were aimed specifically to disable and/or create a strong effect if you time a "counter" against a melee-ranged skill that isn't a projectile?

Perhaps a PvE open-world skill split specifically for the racial skills? I.e. greatly improve the skills but not for WvW/fractals/dungeons/raids. At the very least, make the skills decent for mundane activities.

> @"Ardid.7203" said:

> Honestly, I only see downsides for projectile skills.

> Projectiles can be dodged, protected, blocked, invulnerability-dismissed, retaliated, reflected, destroyed, etc. They also have a traveling time that makes easier to dodge or kite them. So the pros of projectiles are? Finishers you rarely control? That is the only thing I can think projectiles are "better" for. Not impressive at all.

For some professions and skills, another advantage of traveling projectiles was the ability to be hard modified to pierce, bounce, return, explode etc. The problem is, many times this aspect is nerfed because it's seen as "too strong" despite their various disadvantages.

These plot lines might have been intentionally left open, perhaps to facilitate players that enjoy developing backstories and side-plots for their characters that coincide to certain plot threads.

Granted, players who do such things likely could weave their bios and such even with the plots resolved.

> @"Brother.1504" said:

> By growing too fast do you mean her physical size? Because the elder dragons are freakin humongous.

Going to agree with this. Considering that she's practically an infant, babies do grow pretty quick. She's not quite Vlast yet and even he likely was only an adolescent.

Rate of maturity is a completely different factor.

> @"Zedek.8932" said:

> > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > The Tengu would have the colorfulness of a Sylvari (possibly moreso), lack the size, posture and 4-legged run of the Charr, and present a varied demenor from the other races currently sort of like the Asura does. And some people like birds and in the realm of MMOs, where you can play cat people, lolis, lizards, orcs/goblins/elves, werewolves, etc, it's pretty rare to get the opportunity to design a bird character.

>

> Don't you think the latter is for a reason?

> I mean, as you just listed, in realm of MMOs (100% fictional), any designer could squeeze in bird characters into because, as you mentioned, they are fantasy realms. What stops them from doing so then? Any developer has opportunity to design bird characters for MMORPGs. But there are none. The last bird people I saw is in League of Legends, but they bring their own attacks and skills. Could not imagine a Thief Tengu or such thing.

>

> It's most likely other reasons why developers refrain from bird-like characters: Maybe because they can not talk (no lips), or they are just ridiculous (I could not take them serious), or that it's not convincing to hand them all the available weapons in a game, at least with the current design or even their lore would disallow to use regular weapons or lore problems in general. Not to mention they are not quite humanoid. How would shoes work on them?! Or headgear?

>

>

Birds have no problem mimicing human speech without lips.

That part isn't ridiculous.

As for shoes and headgear, you'd have to be particularly uncreative to allow such a thing to become a substantial obstacle.

> @"Linken.6345" said:

> > @"MetalAssault.7906" said:

> > > @"Linken.6345" said:

> > > > @"MetalAssault.7906" said:

> > > > WoW geting ''new races'' like crazy for what? They have no idea how to write a proper story now, they will abandon the new races once the expansion and hype is over to get almost 0 development or protagonism like they have been doing for years. Hype doesn't make a good MMO, quality gameplay, community and story does. Quality over quantity.

> > > > The only race that GW2 should get (and it's wroth) are Tengus because they can bring a breath of fresh air, with one is enough for a long time. All of the others are pretty generic and don't bring nothing really new to the game to make them playable.

> > >

> > > Tengu are like all the others tho, pretty generic and dont bring anything really new to the game.

> >

> > They are compared to what other people propose, like it or not.

>

> Say what now?

> Can you elaborate abit more on how you think Tengu are any diffrent than any other race when it comes to the spirit of worth and bringing anything new to the game?

Spirit of worth? As in concept?

One of the great things about Sylvari are their colorfulness and bioluminescence although the last part could certainly be emphasized more. Their planty-ness, from personal experience on the forums, is often times a turn-off for players. I'm merely indifferent in that regards.

I feel the Asura's appeal comes with their animations as well as their size and demenor. I personally like their ears and teeth but others might enjoy them less.

Charr are infamous for their armor clipping, their hunched posture, their size and their 4-legged run. I personally enjoy all those aspects of Charr and don't think the clipping is that detrimental if you just avoid certain skins.

The Tengu would have the colorfulness of a Sylvari (possibly moreso), lack the size, posture and 4-legged run of the Charr, and present a varied demenor from the other races currently sort of like the Asura does. And some people like birds and in the realm of MMOs, where you can play cat people, lolis, lizards, orcs/goblins/elves, werewolves, etc, it's pretty rare to get the opportunity to design a bird character.

> @"DeTechTive.9251" said:

> > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > @"DeTechTive.9251" said:

> > > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > > > > > > Anyone else remember the era of gaming where game devs pushed the envelope and had to think creatively when they had hard limitations to work around?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 2018, yeah. it's not an era, it's a hard requirement for success of any bit of software as complex as modern or old school games.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Mobile games prove you wrong.

> > > > >

> > > > > Unless you're providing specific games that have never required creative approaches to deal with hard limitations, I don't think you can call it proof.

> > > >

> > > > Considering the post you're initially responding to is tongue in cheek, I can certainly name mobile games that didn't require creative approaches and achieved major success just as I can name non-mobile games that seethed creativity and great gameplay/story despite their limitation yet did not achieve success. The mobile games reply was an easy jab that is plain to see contradict your argument, I'm surprised you're even taking the exchange seriously.

> > > >

> > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > > > Mobile games are often a lot like old school games, dealing with similar limitations of computing power, display real estate, color depth. They can make good use of existing approaches, which were creative responses to the original problems. Plus, they aren't nearly as complex as a lot of console or desktop games, which itself is a creative approach to dealing with such limitations.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > While those are hard limitations, they don't require creativity to overcome to achieve success if success is determined by the profit they make and exposure they see.

> > > >

> > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > > > Regardless, the point is moot: ANet has been extremely creative about a lot of issues, which is partly why so many people love the game as much as they do. The fact that they haven't solved specific issues to everyone's satisfaction doesn't mean that they haven't tried to think outside the box (or inside it); it's because some problems are just really hard to address, without making too many compromises.

> > > > >

> > > > > A sixth race is a good example of that: there have been some interesting suggestions for how to lessen the costs. The problem is all of them also lessen the value of having a new race: skip the personal story and/or new city? Then we lose a huge chunk of what makes new races interesting for veteran players in the first place. Make the race more humanoid so we can re-use Norn or Human or even Sylvari armor? We lose another huge chunk.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Luckily, I don't think the devs need you telling them what creative approaches to use to accomplish certain game features to their standard of quality. You can share your opinion, sure, but the context of our exchange is that creative devs work great when they have defined limits to work within and have to do more with less. I feel, expressing the desire for more races is supporting that mentality: pushing them to do more with what they have.

> > > >

> > > > As for my opinion, I don't think a new race would need a home city. A new city? They introduce new cities/zones enough that it wouldn't be unheard of if a new race were stationed in the new zone area but it is certainly not a requirement (add a section to Lion's Arch or, for example, adding a Skritt race could add a section to Rata Sum for these new Skritt). Personal story is pivotal to adding the new race but it'd be far easier to add their story to the current (when one is introduced) living story timeline rather than backtrack. That's quite a bit of voice acting that wouldn't be required right there. I'd be willing to sacrifice armor for some in-game and gem store outfits, in exchange for better quality skins and an added diverse race and if necessary, a staggered release of wardrobe armor skins.

> > > >

> > > And I'd prefer a few new weapon types, new core traitlines, new e-specs, unlocking espec weapons restrictions, new professions and tons of armors and/or gemstore armors instead of outfits and a new race. Thats just my opinion on dev resource allocation, but I'm sure it's shared by many others.

> >

> > And I'm not the only player to profess a desire for new races, what does that or your post have to do with dev resource allocation?

>

> Not sure how you wouldn't understand that it has everything to do with it. I'm freely voicing my opinion on where I'd prefer them to focus their efforts. This is a forum, ideas will have opposition and debate, but as I have already said, I'm not fully opposed to it. A new race would need more incentive for alot of long time players who already have everything at 80 and sometimes twice over or more. It's a hard sell to say, "do all the same stuff again, unlocking all the traits abilities and e-specs and map completion and so on", simply because you now look like a bear or have inverted bird knees. Because if that's it, then I would prefer those resources be put to better (My opinion) use.

Not sure how you wouldn't understand that what *WE* want doesn't dictate how the devs decide how their efforts and resources are allocated.

At this point, you're arguing with yourself about dev resource allocation and how it should reflect your posts.