Ragnar.4257

> @"Kuma.1503" said: > > @"idontnoso.9850" said: > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > It is not a hard rule, but easy to play often comes with the trade-off of being easy to counter. > > > > > > If your gameplay flow chart is simple and one dimensional, you can expect the counterplay to be similarly one dimensional. In this instance, it's simply a matter of learning to work around the build's strengths and you should be able to neutralize it. Putting it in terms that these forums often use, you may refer to builds like these as "gimmicks". > > > > > > While gimmick builds may be frustrating to fight, especially for those inexperienced, they generally crumble once you learn "the trick" to beating them. In Burn DH's case "the trick" is to either kite/outrange them, as Sword of Justice is near-useless on a moving target, or calmly cleanse at the peak of their condition burst. > > > > > > You should never die to SoJ unless you are either immobilized or caught in Dragon's Maw. In a worst case scenario in which you're trapped in Dragon's maw with a SoJ on top of you, rather than faceplant into the wall, calmly use whichever ports, blocks, invulns, or stationary evades (e.g. twist of fate) you have available. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think the issue is that the gimmick of DH fits too well into the game mode of "Capture the Point". When players are forced to stand on a specific location to gain points, the DH excels are what they do, dealing high damage at a point. If you run into a DH in WvW, they are destroyed because the player is not forced to stand on a single point. Players can kite the DH with no demerits. Where as, in PvP, you may be forced to engage on a stack of traps or be in a prolonged fight where a DH drops traps in the middle of a fight when you're forced to defend a point; if you decide to leave they ultimately win by taking control of the point. > > > > Lets forget about the idea of engaging on a DH that's already on point. The biggest problem is when a DH engages on a fight that's already happening on a point. They simply enter the fight, drop their traps, and benefit from massive damage to multiple players; at times being able to down an entire team simply by laying down their traps. > > > > So, yes, the DH is easily countered in a duel or open world situation, but in a game mode where players are forced on to a single location, they do exceeding well. > > You have a valid point. In a game of hold the node, the weaknesses of some builds may be felt less than due to movement restricted fighting conditions. However, this does act as a double edged sword. You know with a fair degree of certainty where the DH will place his traps. Knowledge you can use to safely trigger them. > > You can run run through them while blocking, evading, or while invulnerable. You can send any AI pets you have into the line of fire, or in Herald's case, you can use DH traps as your own personal on-demand health pack. Simply turn on IL and heal to full whenever you desire. > > As the DH, you can replace these traps after they've been triggered if they've been set down for some time, but your opponent will have the benefit of knowing precicely where your traps are placed, and can plan their counterplay accordingly. > > Class specific counterplay: > > Ranger, Mesmer, and thief all have an easy method of triggering traps. DD can dash across the node. If caught they have plenty of blinks to escape maw. Ranger and Mesmer can trigger traps with AI. Other noteworthy classes are Spellbreaker, which gets guaranteed full counter off of traps, and zoo necro, who has no shortage of canon fodder and can screw the DH over with condi transfers. > Nonono, anything more complicated than walking directly to the target in a straight line and pressing 12345 in sequence is unfair to expect of anyone.

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > @"anduriell.6280" said: > > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > And do you know how that "passive" damage happens? > > > > > > > > > > > > Right, the guardian has to hit you 3 times, and that triggers 1 stack of burning which will do a total (not per-tick, total) damage of roughly 1500-2000. > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you think doing 1500-2000 for hitting an opponent 3 times is too much? > > > > > > > > > > > > How much damage will a spellbreaker, or any other class, do with 3 hits? In many cases its more than 1500-2000. > > > > > > > > > > > > Your argument basically comes down to "I think its unfair that guardians do damage when they hit me". Yikes. > > > > > > > > > > Guardian already did 10K with the 3 hits and additionally you get the burning stack for 2K which can not dodge, block or evade. > > > > > > > > LOL what condi-guard build is hitting for 10k power? > > > > > > > > Go on, link the build. > > > > > > > > The only guardian build that has any hope of doing that much power damage in that many hits is a full-glass meme-zerker hammer build. > > > > > > Did u seriously just say passive damage happens, what does that even mean? > > > Yeah passive damage happens but things like how often, for how much damage, the duration and is it aoe are all important factors no? > > > The issue is on top of high passive damage aplication it also occurs often and also in combination with the guards actual skills. > > > If I catch a war burst on someone the were caught off guard or made a mistake and didnt avoid highly telegraphed cc's or have burned their blocks or stunbreaks and ate the burst, that in no way can be compared to how burn guards or even trap spamming burn guards inflict their damage. Guard/dh need a decent rework with nerfs and buffs to delete the garbage braindead playstyle that they promote currently, and their not the only class that needs thos either. As I said games pvp population is very low for reasons and it's not cuz people are too busy, especially in times like were experiencing now. > > > > I mean, I listed how often and the exact damage that happens in the post. > > > > But since you can't read, I'll post it again. > > > > Every 3 hits = 1500-2000 damage. (And that's assuming Virtues, on other builds it is Every 5 hits) > > > > How much damage does any other class do every 3 hits? > > U are being disingenuous so no point in furthering the discussion. If u are doing 2k damage over 3 hits ur either lying or a very bad guard. If left unchecked for a very short time a burn guard can do 20k just in burn tics alone lmao, u act like no one has experienced how much damage a burn guard or trap dh can do just by spamming their skills. I refer u to the experience of a new guard player that mains mesmer who recently just posted a thread regarding the braindead spammy but highly effective playstyle of guard/ trap dh lol. I believe ur already defending guards in that new thread ad well lol And how many times does the guard have to hit you to reach 20k damage? (Here, I'll help, the answer is 30) And if another build hit you that many times, how much damage would it do? (Here, I'll help the answer is probably more than 20k)

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > @"anduriell.6280" said: > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > And do you know how that "passive" damage happens? > > > > > > > > Right, the guardian has to hit you 3 times, and that triggers 1 stack of burning which will do a total (not per-tick, total) damage of roughly 1500-2000. > > > > > > > > Do you think doing 1500-2000 for hitting an opponent 3 times is too much? > > > > > > > > How much damage will a spellbreaker, or any other class, do with 3 hits? In many cases its more than 1500-2000. > > > > > > > > Your argument basically comes down to "I think its unfair that guardians do damage when they hit me". Yikes. > > > > > > Guardian already did 10K with the 3 hits and additionally you get the burning stack for 2K which can not dodge, block or evade. > > > > LOL what condi-guard build is hitting for 10k power? > > > > Go on, link the build. > > > > The only guardian build that has any hope of doing that much power damage in that many hits is a full-glass meme-zerker hammer build. > > Did u seriously just say passive damage happens, what does that even mean? > Yeah passive damage happens but things like how often, for how much damage, the duration and is it aoe are all important factors no? > The issue is on top of high passive damage aplication it also occurs often and also in combination with the guards actual skills. > If I catch a war burst on someone the were caught off guard or made a mistake and didnt avoid highly telegraphed cc's or have burned their blocks or stunbreaks and ate the burst, that in no way can be compared to how burn guards or even trap spamming burn guards inflict their damage. Guard/dh need a decent rework with nerfs and buffs to delete the garbage braindead playstyle that they promote currently, and their not the only class that needs thos either. As I said games pvp population is very low for reasons and it's not cuz people are too busy, especially in times like were experiencing now. I mean, I listed how often and the exact damage that happens in the post. But since you can't read, I'll post it again. Every 3 hits = 1500-2000 damage. (And that's assuming Virtues, on other builds it is Every 5 hits) How much damage does any other class do every 3 hits?

> @"anduriell.6280" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > LOL what condi-guard build is hitting for 10k power? > > > > Go on, link the build. > One with Grieving my point is not if the build is playable or not for low skilled, my point is it is possible to do as much damage in power as condi. And condition damage is something you can not keep removing constantly. > > We talked about this comparing condi damage to ticks from One Wolf Pack. > > My point is Anet does not need to nerf the condi damage, just add a buff so when a condition is cleansed that specific condition can not be re-applied for short time. > > Even Grieving won't hit that hard. Because you're not able to take the Power traits in Radiance/Zeal if you're already taking the Burning traits. And if you drop the burning traits, you won't be doing that much burning damage. You're debating an imaginary build that nobody plays with an impossible trait setup.

> @"idontnoso.9850" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > I mean, whether or not Guardian is better than Mesmer, is a fairly pointless discussion, because, they aren't the only 2 classes in the game, and the game-mode is not a 1v1 deathmatch. > > I don't think that's the point of the post. The point is guards are easier to play and give a lot of wins with little effort. Mesmers are much more difficult to play and can only win if its in the hands of someone who's played it for a long time. > > This isn't just the case for guards and mesmers, its true when you compare other classes too. Core-Ele is much more difficult to play than mesmer and has much lower win-rate. Therefore mesmer needs to be nerfed. See how that sounds stupid? See how you can't just compare 2 things in a vacuum?

> @"anduriell.6280" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > And do you know how that "passive" damage happens? > > > > Right, the guardian has to hit you 3 times, and that triggers 1 stack of burning which will do a total (not per-tick, total) damage of roughly 1500-2000. > > > > Do you think doing 1500-2000 for hitting an opponent 3 times is too much? > > > > How much damage will a spellbreaker, or any other class, do with 3 hits? In many cases its more than 1500-2000. > > > > Your argument basically comes down to "I think its unfair that guardians do damage when they hit me". Yikes. > > Guardian already did 10K with the 3 hits and additionally you get the burning stack for 2K which can not dodge, block or evade. LOL what condi-guard build is hitting for 10k power? Go on, link the build. The only guardian build that has any hope of doing that much power damage in that many hits is a full-glass meme-zerker hammer build.

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > @"anduriell.6280" said: > > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > Here is an interesting look at a bit of truth beyond the psychology of these power vs. condi debacles: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine how much more it would kitten people off, if Maul & WI dealt the same exact damage that they did now, but it happened over the course of 10 seconds. So I hit a guy with Maul into WI and then he tries to run away, only to watch his health pool disappear over the course of 10s as he teleports away around a corner and completely disengages me, but still goes into downstate. There is something about "Getting away but then still dying" that really triggers people. And as much as some would not want to admit this, it is absolutely 100% true. > > > > > > Agreed some peeps think of condi like "damage already done overtime" but they would not consider the same for power damage because that would be outrageous. > > > > > > > > > > > > When the Feb balance patch happened all power damage and **sustain** was nerfed but not the condi output and damage. As such Conditions are overtuned at the moment and it should be addressed. > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't understand why that concept is that is that difficult to grasp. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ummmm, he wasn't agreeing with you. > > > > > > > > > > If Maul did the exact same total damage over 10s rather than instantly, nothing would change with regards Ranger's strength. Infact, if anything, it would become weaker, because it would give people a chance to heal through it. But it would result in a whole lot more people whinging about it. > > > > > > > > > > While we're on the subject of Ranger: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hunter%27s_Call > > > > > > > > > > Is everyone crying about how OP this is? > > > > > > > > > > And I already said I'd be fine with Power damage happening over time (as, in fact, it does already on some skills). But you seem to have ignored that. > > > > > > > > What people seem to forget when they start whining about condi doing xxx damage in total is that it's not instant, they go 'zomg 5k in one skill. Op!' because the tooltip said so. Not only can it be healed through by not being instant, but in the case of condi it can be cleansed and entirely negated after someone got hit with it. A more accurate comparison using Maul would be that it did the same damage over time but could be healed through and negated by another skill after you already got slapped. I can already picture the QQ if Maul or WI worked like that. > > > > > > Lmao 5k what? No the issue is when stacks and tick damage are so high AND reapliable with such ease that not only is the damage in the 20k-25k range (sometimes more) but it's also easily reapplied which is the problem as even if u wait for full stacks and lose 50% of ur hp before cleansing they just get reapplied so the just cleanse argument falls flat, not to mention on certain classes their availability promotes braindead spammy gameplay which is bad for the game but also on a class like guard a lot of it is passive lmao. Keep defending this gbage and whatcha everyone who doesn't play these classes simply quit as most have hence the population being nil. > > > > 5k per skill use was the example, not when everything is stacked on you. And in those cases you already ate the skills that applied or are continuing to apply them so chances are you would have died much earlier if it was a power build. The cleanse argument doesn't falls flat if you waste them, and that's not the fault of the cleanses. Learn when to cleanse as you learn when to block and dodge, not every single attack has to be avoided and you have to learn what to save your resources for. > > U do realize a lot of burns guards stack are passive right, waiting to cleanse until u have stacks on u does nothing as they will just be reapplied and cleansing as soon as u get afflicted burns ur cleanse far to early and unlike the burn stacks for guards classes don't have constant reapliable cleanses. U say block and dodge lol ya that will definitely keep the guard from reapplying stacks. That's like saying geez trapper rune DH's arnt spammy brain dead builds either as u just avoid the traps lmao cuz u kno the can't just reapply the traps on a way to low of a cd lol. The game needs huge reworks to a lot of brain dead passive spammy cheese builds and guards/dh are included in that group. U cant tell me u haven't noticed trap dh/burn guards in every match and somtimes 2 on a team. I got to plat as a power splb and thru gold 3 and plat 1 these, reaper/scourge, renegades and ele's where way way more played than any other class, and for a reason. And do you know how that "passive" damage happens? Right, the guardian has to hit you 3 times, and that triggers 1 stack of burning which will do a total (not per-tick, total) damage of roughly 1500-2000. Do you think doing 1500-2000 for hitting an opponent 3 times is too much? How much damage will a spellbreaker, or any other class, do with 3 hits? In many cases its more than 1500-2000. Your argument basically comes down to "I think its unfair that guardians do damage when they hit me". Yikes. (And I'm being quite generous there, the baseline for the Trapper-DH build is 1569 damage, to get up to 2000 requires alot of might/vuln to be in play).

I mean, whether or not Guardian is better than Mesmer, is a fairly pointless discussion, because, they aren't the only 2 classes in the game, and the game-mode is not a 1v1 deathmatch.

> @"Masteis.9720" said: > Hi fellas, > > I know there are plently of QQ reviews about Guardians but I just wanted to share mine as well and I am going to keep it really short; > > I've mained Mesmer, to be honest, I do not have any problem with dealing a Guardian. If I take right actions like dodging skills or using right skills in right time etc. I can take down any class. I believe that mastering any class and playing it is the right the key. But, the thing i want to mention is that the attention you have to pay. > For example; as a Mesmer, I have to calculate every move. I cannot use my skills randomly, I need to use them in a correct situation. To success, I have to play smart. > And about Guardian; I just started to play with Guardian a few days ago. I just checked a meta build and never watched a single PvP guide. What I do is just laying down whatever trap I, and spaming F2 F3 and Sword 5 when I am low. I don't even select a target, I just push the buttons and try to survive while laying traps around. I have more win ratio than any other class now. > I am not trying to tell that Guardian's damage should be nerfed, I just wanted to point that Guardians shouldn't be a class that is really easy to play. > I've mained Guardian, to be honest, I do not have any problem with dealing a Mesmer. If I take right actions like dodging skills or using right skills in right time etc. I can take down any class. I believe that mastering any class and playing it is the right the key. But, the thing i want to mention is that the attention you have to pay. For example; as a Guardian, I have to calculate every move. I cannot use my skills randomly, I need to use them in a correct situation. To success, I have to play smart. And about Mesmer; I just started to play with Mesmer a few days ago. I just checked a meta build and never watched a single PvP guide. What I do is just laying down whatever phantasm/shatter I, and spaming F3 F4 and teleport when I am low. I don't even select a target, I just push the buttons and try to survive while laying clones around. I have more win ratio than any other class now. I am not trying to tell that Mesmer's damage should be nerfed, I just wanted to point that Mesmer shouldn't be a class that is really easy to play.

> @"whoknocks.4935" said: > In a teamfight? > Let's say the enemy team is composed by: > Support (Core guardian, healbreaker or tempest). > Necro > Burn Dragonhunter > Ranger > Thief > > Ranger at first of the match goes home(close) node. > > Rest is mid. > > I always find confusing on who to focus first. > If you focus the support, he usually start kite around and defend tank himself not to die while the others just freecast and focus back on you. > If you focus the necro, he gets supported and become usually too tanky to get down. > > Of course I am not talking of a team with microphone communication and top pvp players, but general target focus on tournament pugs, soloQ ranked matches where most of the times target focus is pretty meh. > > Thanks. In this specific scenario, first of all, it depends on which support. Tempest is alot harder to focus than a core-guard or healbreaker, and also provides less healing, so its a much lower priority, whereas a core-guard can do bigger healing but is also easier to focus down, so would be higher priority. Second, is the necro a core-necro, scourge, or reaper? Reaper would always be at the top, or very near the top, of my target priority, but core necro would be much lower. But above both, top priority would be the Burn DH. Now, because it will keep popping in and out of stealth, you can't focus it 100% of the time, but whenever it does appear you need to retarget on to it and force it to keep disengaging. A free-casting Burn DH is an instant-loss, but with even minimal pressure the DH will be forced to run away and contribute nothing, so just pay attention to it for 2s whenever it appears, then you can happily ignore it for the next 20s while it runs away to reset.

> @"anduriell.6280" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > Here is an interesting look at a bit of truth beyond the psychology of these power vs. condi debacles: > > > > Imagine how much more it would kitten people off, if Maul & WI dealt the same exact damage that they did now, but it happened over the course of 10 seconds. So I hit a guy with Maul into WI and then he tries to run away, only to watch his health pool disappear over the course of 10s as he teleports away around a corner and completely disengages me, but still goes into downstate. There is something about "Getting away but then still dying" that really triggers people. And as much as some would not want to admit this, it is absolutely 100% true. > Agreed some peeps think of condi like "damage already done overtime" but they would not consider the same for power damage because that would be outrageous. > > When the Feb balance patch happened all power damage and **sustain** was nerfed but not the condi output and damage. As such Conditions are overtuned at the moment and it should be addressed. > > I don't understand why that concept is that is that difficult to grasp. > Ummmm, he wasn't agreeing with you. If Maul did the exact same total damage over 10s rather than instantly, nothing would change with regards Ranger's strength. Infact, if anything, it would become weaker, because it would give people a chance to heal through it. But it would result in a whole lot more people whinging about it. While we're on the subject of Ranger: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hunter%27s_Call Is everyone crying about how OP this is? And I already said I'd be fine with Power damage happening over time (as, in fact, it does already on some skills). But you seem to have ignored that.

What you're seeing is the effect of the 2v2 mini-season. Necro is incredibly strong in 2v2 deathmatch, but less strong in 5v5 conquest, because 5v5 has more space to exploit necro's weaknesses, and more opportunities to focus-fire down the necro with 3-4 players. and also Lich can't cheese a long 5v5 match as easily. So everyone who's been playing 2v2 recently thinks its super strong. Then we go back into 5v5 season and nobody cares any more.

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"Tycura.1982" said: > > That's how the cookie crumbles sometimes. You can't serious believe it doesn't happen to your opponents from time to time as well? > > Some accounts do tend to get better game than others for whatever reason that is. I don't know if it has to do with date of creation, total games played, popularity or notoriety within the community mixed with reasons to throw or not throw, or something deeper. But this does seem to be the case. I've viewed it for 9 years now. The same people excel or struggle, regardless of their actual recognized skill level & potential within the veteran community. In other words, some lower quality players are always riding higher into rating than some well known very strong players who struggle to get beyond some lower rated point. > > Example: There are these two girls who have been playing with a group of us lately. They're cool gamers, good people to hang out with, but they aren't exactly strong players. In fact they are quite inexperienced and struggle mechanically in all situations. We have gone out of our way to play a lot of unranked with them and to spar with them to try and help them. I can 1v2 these girls and win 9 out of 10 times that they try me. Yet somehow, magically, one of them is bottom plat and the other is nearing p2 margins in the leaderboards right now. Yet earlier today I was gridlocked at 1400-1430 rating, with one game after another where it did not matter if I won 1v2s and stalled 1v3s all game without ever dying because my team mates were either so bad or possibly throwing, that 2 opponents could easily deal with 4 of my team mates where I was not at. I had placed 1554 out of placements and was r13 in NA after the first 3 days but then this happened, an unbreakable streak of impossible to win games. > > So the match maker expects me to be ultra stronk at 1400 rating and carry dead weight to gain any rating at all, I'm talking win 1v2s and ultimately stall 1v3s to even begin to have a chance to win these matches, but somehow these two girls are nearing p2 margins but the match maker places them so they can be carried by stacked teams into those margins? No matter how you look at that, something is all wrong with it and it proves that some accounts for whatever reasons, are given easier or more difficult matches. > > You should dip into stream link here and watch some of these ranked games I get, especially when it's lose streaking me at 1400 rating. Honestly, lately I consider dedicating my stream into investigating what's going on there, because apparently this is not happening to everyone, at least not on the level of magnitude that it happens to me. If it did, those two girls would be in the silver division, not plat 2. I seem to remember, looking at the matchmaker code on wiki, that total number of games played is considered as a factor, which was a bit of a 'yikes' moment.

Yeah, nah, don't listen to these salty people. I'm usually in Plat-2, in Ranked matches I'm pretty much always going against other Plat players, very occasionally might see a Gold-3 player. By contrast, in Unranked I'm regularly being put on teams either with or against people who are clearly playing their first PvP match with full-signet thief builds, etc etc. and it's just a slaughter, which isn't fun for either side.

The matchmaking in Unranked is basically a lottery. There is no logic, it's pure chance. The matchmaking in Ranked is generally a lot better. Not necessarily perfect, but it is usually at least somewhat close. Most bases have more than 1 exit, so, if someone is trying to spawn-camp....... just use the other one. Leaving during a match will give you "Dishonor" which will prevent you playing PvP again for a set period. The duration increases each time you trigger it, so I think it's 2 minutes first time, but that will ramp up to hours or even days if you keep abusing it. 1-shot builds are perfectly legal, but they're really not all that common because they're also very squishy and risky to play.

> @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > I did also enjoy the comparison of a torch skill that gives stealth, blind, blast finisher and condi-cleanse as well as burning to 5 targets, to a torch skill that does nothing but burning to 1 target. > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you proposing to add stealth to guardian torch and make the throw a 5-target AoE? > > > > > > > > > > > > Given the choice, most guardians would take mesmer torch in a heartbeat. > > > > > > > > > > BLAST FINISHER ON TORCH LMFAO > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Prestige > > > > > > > > ?? > > > > > > It has 3s delay, you can't use it to blast anything 'cause by the time blast procs the field is gone. Besides (but that's another matter), as a mesmer you only have access to chaos fields whose utility is questionable at best :( it's a blast on paper only, in practice you don't ever get to blast anything with that > > > > I mean, blast finisher wasn't the only thing on that list. I listed all of the things that Prestige does. Are you denying that Prestige gives stealth, blind, blast finisher and condi-cleanse as well as burning to 5 targets? > > > > I stand by my statement that, given the choice on a guardian build, I would ALWAYS pick mesmer-torch over guard-torch if it was an option. > > The other things were cool and good and I didn't say anything about them So what was the point of saying anything at all?

> @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > I did also enjoy the comparison of a torch skill that gives stealth, blind, blast finisher and condi-cleanse as well as burning to 5 targets, to a torch skill that does nothing but burning to 1 target. > > > > > > > > Are you proposing to add stealth to guardian torch and make the throw a 5-target AoE? > > > > > > > > Given the choice, most guardians would take mesmer torch in a heartbeat. > > > > > > BLAST FINISHER ON TORCH LMFAO > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Prestige > > > > ?? > > It has 3s delay, you can't use it to blast anything 'cause by the time blast procs the field is gone. Besides (but that's another matter), as a mesmer you only have access to chaos fields whose utility is questionable at best :( it's a blast on paper only, in practice you don't ever get to blast anything with that I mean, blast finisher wasn't the only thing on that list. I listed all of the things that Prestige does. Are you denying that Prestige gives stealth, blind, blast finisher and condi-cleanse as well as burning to 5 targets? I stand by my statement that, given the choice on a guardian build, I would ALWAYS pick mesmer-torch over guard-torch if it was an option.

> @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > I did also enjoy the comparison of a torch skill that gives stealth, blind, blast finisher and condi-cleanse as well as burning to 5 targets, to a torch skill that does nothing but burning to 1 target. > > > > Are you proposing to add stealth to guardian torch and make the throw a 5-target AoE? > > > > Given the choice, most guardians would take mesmer torch in a heartbeat. > > BLAST FINISHER ON TORCH LMFAO https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Prestige ??

> @"anduriell.6280" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > Its a pretty stupid comparison to take a build doing big power damage AND "passive" condi damage, and compare it to a build that ONLY does "passive" condi damage. Like....... really? > Condi builds can use Viper or Grieving and use power weapons as well for high output damage, the guard build use power weapons . Additionally condi builds usually does not apply only one condition, Am i Correct? So if cleanses can work on OWP any cleanse only can remove 2 stacks at once of the unlimited you can have on you. > > You see how ridiculous sounds trying to defend what everybody is saying is broken in any PvP? > > **Anet can decide to keep nerfing the condi applications in all the skills in game and get the Ranger treatment (from 3s to 1s 66% duration reduction)**, power creep the cleanses in game or apply this design. > > I think my suggestion is the most sensible and efficient: > * You still can apply the bursts as needed. Just keep an eye for the cleanses. No need to rework any skill. > * Your auto attack damage will still tick as nobody will like to waste a cleanse for 1 or 2 seconds immunity. > * The design does not need a massive rework of the skills and traits in game. > * The design is future proof. It doesn't matter the future condition durations or burst, cleansing them will have the same effect. > > Indeed Anet can decide to do nothing but that will not solve this glaring issue. Yeah, and power builds can use Viper or Grieving for additional condi damage. So what? Oooooh, that's right, nobody does that because damage doesn't just come down to which amulet you equip, it also requires supporting traits, weapons, utilities, runes, etc.

> @"anduriell.6280" said: > > [One Wolf Pack ](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/One_Wolf_Pack) well the condi version would be instead ticking once it would tick for the next 4 seconds and staking with following attacks. The current 1K damage tick is well within low side of the bleeds damage you may get from almost any condi build. > > **If you don't think a passive OWP for the soulbeast is fine why should it be ticking conditions.** If the power damage of Soulbest was reduced as a trade-off, and if Cleanse could remove OWP, sure, why not? Being able to do sticky uncleansable OWP damage AND be able to drop 10k rapid-fires and 8k Mauls would be pretty stupid. Its a pretty stupid comparison to take a build doing big power damage AND "passive" condi damage, and compare it to a build that ONLY does "passive" condi damage. Like....... really?

> @"anduriell.6280" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > Sorry, but that's nonsense. > > > > You've chosen a skill that does multiple hits, and compared it to an imaginary skill that does 1 hit. Why not compare it to Mighty Blow or Eviscerate? > > > > Why not compare it to another skill that has multiple hits? Like a ranger trap, sword of justice, plaguelands, caltrops etc etc etc Those don't just hit once and dump all their damage up front, they need to hit multiple times to give the full efffect. Exactly the same as rapid-fire, you can eat the first hit of those and dodge the rest, mitigating the damage. > > In gave you the perfect example, you get hit once you get the condition ticks for long time. [Caltrops ](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Caltrops) will apply 10s bleeds, You get hit once and you will be bleeding for a long time. A [viper nest](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Viper%27s_Nest) will poison you for 8 seconds for each hit. > [igniting Burst](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chapter_2:_Igniting_Burst) will burn you for 5 seconds. [Grasping Dead](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grasping_Dead) will apply 12 seconds of bleeding. Autoattacks like [blood Curse](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blood_Curse) will stack 5s bleeds every 1/2 second. > > With such long durations is very easy to stack any amount of ticking conditions which can not keep cleansing. **So unless all classes cleanses all conditions with dodges the mechanic is OP for PvP modes and needs to be fixed**. > > As I said: **the easiest is to give a buff which blocks any new incoming conditions for short time when actively cleansed. So if you cleansed burning you will be safe from new incoming burns for some seconds** And use the stack system to make the buff longer will be positive for balance as it would reward the player for cleansing the condition bursts. The skill ceiling will be higher as condi builds currently are very forgiving with sets like Trailblazers and Dire in WvW and Rabid and Carrion in sPvP, and after this they will need to be careful when to apply the burst. Hey the same as power builds needs to keep an eye for immunities. > > **And this magically would fix the perma-stun lockdowns as after breaking stun you would get 1 second of immunity to react.** > > I would set the limit for this buff duration of 5s by condition in sPvP and 10s by condition in wvw. > The damage has already been done. If you get a 8s poison on you, you've already received the damage, it just has a delayed arrival. It's not doing any "new" damage, you've already received it. It's like saying that you can't dodge Pulmonary Impact, because it has a delayed arrival. No, you dodge the skill that applied the Pulmonary Impact. The damage per-tick is also proportionally lower than power attacks, it's the total from all ticks that adds up to being comparable. A power attack does 5k damage up front, a condi attack does 1k damage per second for 5s = 5k damage. The condition attack doesn't magically do more damage just because it happens over a period of time. Both of them do 5k.

> @"anduriell.6280" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > Condition damage is dodgeable. Condition damage is blockable. > > > > Guardian throws a torch? You can block it. Scourge throws a Shade? You can dodge it. Rev throws some mace skills? You can blind it. > > > > Oh, you mean that you can't dodge it _after_ it has already hit you? You mean...... exactly the same as power skills? > Your example is flawled i will give you the power version of the condi. > > A ranger shoot a [Rapid Fire](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rapid_Fire) agaisnt you. You get the first hit but can dodge the rest and mitigate some damage. > > **The condition version would be if the ranger hit you once shot and you get the full damage of the rapid fire overtime, unblockable and undodgeable.** > > [One Wolf Pack ](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/One_Wolf_Pack) i see a lot of crying about this skill, well the condi version would be instead ticking once it would tick for the next 4 seconds. The current 1K damage tick is well within low side of the bleeds damage you may get from almost any condi build. > > And now you say "cleanses" and i say: Ranger Longbow auto attack is now the new Rapid Fire which only needs to hit you once and you get damage overtime. As you can see an amazing mechanic which power damage would need to benefit from as well. > > > Sorry, but that's nonsense. You've chosen a skill that does multiple hits, and compared it to an imaginary skill that does 1 hit. Why not compare it to Mighty Blow or Eviscerate? Those only hit once and do all their damage, but those don't count because they're pooooower right?? Why not compare rapid-fire to another skill that has multiple hits? Like ranger fire trap, sword of justice, plaguelands, caltrops, confusing images etc etc etc Those don't just hit once and dump all their damage up front, they need to hit multiple times to give the full efffect. Exactly the same as rapid-fire, you can eat the first hit of those and dodge the rest, mitigating the damage.

> @"anduriell.6280" said: > > @"Virdo.1540" said: > > how do u wanna nerf it? Put down the damage? Then its like bleeding, just with shorter duration. > > Easy enough: **You cleanse one type of condition you get a buff which block the reapplication of the same condition for some time**. It could be based in the stacks, so status conditions (no intensity stacking) would only have the buff for 1s. > Damaging conditions with intensity stacking could get 1s by stack with a high cap of some seconds let's say 10. So if you get 12 burns and you cleanse you get a buff for the next 10s which blocks any new burnings incoming. > > This can be applied to the whole game, PvE would not be impacted. No need to fiddle with conditions in the different game modes, it would self balance itself. > 10s buff too strong? let's nerf it to 5s. The important thing is to be able to have time to restore the cleanses, unless the condi damage become dodgeage, limited by current LoS, blockable by aegis and blocks, the design is simply too oppressive with current mechanics. Condition damage is dodgeable. Condition damage is blockable. Guardian throws a torch? You can block it. Scourge throws a Shade? You can dodge it. Rev throws some mace skills? You can blind it. Oh, you mean that you can't dodge it _after_ it has already hit you? You mean...... exactly the same as power skills?

> @"Bladezephyr.5714" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > Just to prove I'm not imagining things, here is a recording of ONE unranked game, in which out of 15 attempted uses of Shield, 13 of them failed/bugged. Only 2 worked properly. > > Did you actually look at your combat log? > > 13:41 You hit Gwen Copperclaw for 355 using Shield of the Avenger > 13:41 You hit Morticia Addams for 457 using Shield of the Avenger > ... > 13:41 You hit Morticia Addams for 529 using Shield of the Avenger > 13:41 Gwen Copperclaw evaded your Sheild of the Avenger > Shield Fail Counter: 2 > Actual shield failures: zero. > ... > 13:42 You hit Gwen Copperclaw for 351 using Shield of the Avenger > 13:42 You critically hit Morticia Addams for 1,065 [i think, number not clear in vid] using Shield of the Avenger > 13:42 You hit Flesh Golem for 329 using Shield of the Avenger > Shield Fail Counter: 3 > Actual shield failures: zero > > Looks like it's working fine to me. There are also numerous logs about burning being applied at the same time, but I didn't comment about that since it's hard/impossible to identify the source of burning. But they're happening at the same time so it seems right. So it does seem like this is just a visual bug, but it's working as intended. > Did YOU actually read my post? I noted that the shield was initially spawning and applying weakness/burning, and then instantly de-spawning afterwards.

To be honest, I'd spend a few weeks in PvE first to get to grips with the mechanics, skills, traits etc. PvP is very fast and you'll find it difficult to learn anything other than how to randomly smash buttons, if you're not familiar with those buttons first. Try taking a few different classes to level 30 (because that's pretty fast, a few hours max), see which one you like, then take the one you like to level 80 in PvE. Once there, you should be familiar enough with it to have a chance of understanding PvP. I'd also recommend trying out as many different classes as possible, not just so you've got an idea of what you want to play, but also an idea of what it is other classes can do, so you know when you see an enemy doing X animation wtf it is. Being able to read animations and know what's important to dodge, and what isn't, is very important for PvP. And finally, if once you try PvP you find it intimidating, frustrating, too fast, etc. I'd recommend building up some confidence and experience in WvW. That's 80v80v80, rather than 5v5, so you can lean more on other people's experience there, and less likely to have people raging.