Ragnar.4257

> @"Firebeard.1746" said: > Also am I the only one who realizes most of the best classes in PVP are the ones with the highest HP pools by default (guardian being the exception, but it has auto-blocks which work as effective HP)? that's my issue with 'glass cannon' classes being built into the game. Eventually enough people with better survivability complain and then there's no point to being one. ????? The only classes with the highest HP pool are warrior and necro. Neither of them are considered top-tier currently (aside from Healbreaker build, but not as a dps/sidenoder).

Weaver on both winning and runner-up teams, on both EU and NA. But naaah..... it's not viable rite?

> @"Senteliks.2360" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > I wonder if there might be a reason why a permanently invulnerable build might be something they'd want to prevent in PvP. Hmmmm...... > > k > > The reality was a bit different but whatever, I wonder why do you think sarcastic response is good... hmmm > > > Seriously though, Mesmer always had to do 3 things to achieve something whereas about almost any profession could do it with one or one and half (exception is Elementalist/Revenant?- well the last time I bothered to play PVP that is, a lot of changes since then), but again, mad crowd is always in the right wing. > > p.s And yes I know that it could be frustrating - but it was counter-able even though it required actually some skill to do it, (people forget that Mesmers fight... well other Mesmers as well and it is duel of reflexes- I have had my share of rant moments)But that's it, just that one and now when taken away, good luck pulling anything with Mesmer now, unless you are really good (and in constant disadvantage against pretty much anything) > > If nothing else comes to mind, one thing was always painfully out there, Mesmers (expect those really skilled ones with custom builds, tailored to their unique approach) had very predicable pattern. There was no "different reality". I never suggested that Mirage "used" to be able to do this in PvP. I was explaining why it was not possible and will never be possible to do this to the same degree as you can in PvE. People are so touchy.

> @"ArthurDent.9538" said: > > @"ollbirtan.2915" said: > > A 'support' sitting alone on a node is a waste of slot. A smart 'support' will be in group fights where it can be easily focused. > > Also, a smart dps player will not be engaging in a 1v1 with a support. L2p issue here. > > A support sitting alone on node gets the same value as a dedicated side noder. Difference being if the fight scales up as players rotate in, support gains way more value by not being a selfish tank spec (aka side noder). So the point is is that supports simply have much more value than any sort of dueling focused sidenoder currently. That's only true if the 'support' already owns the node. They can hold a node they already own, but there's no way they can take a node from an enemy if its contested. Whereas a dedicated side-noder can actually take nodes. And, moreover, a dedicated duelist can pressure an opponent, force cooldowns, and leave the opponent vulnerable to a +1, whereas a support will apply zero pressure. Claiming that supports have the exact same side-noding capability as actual side-noders is absurd.

I wonder if there might be a reason why a permanently invulnerable build might be something they'd want to prevent in PvP. Hmmmm......

I mean, this right here is why PvP was always doomed to failure. The basic concept of _"don't waste time into a bunker on an owned node, and instead go and gain a 5v4 on the other 2 nodes"_ is simply too much for 90% of the people who try the game. Should've designed a game where there is 1 class with only 1 button, and you spawn directly next to an enemy where you can both press your 1 button. Fastest button pressing wins.

> @"snoow.1694" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > @"snoow.1694" said: > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > Whilst we're at it: > > > > > > > > Hmmmm, Renegade Shortbow is a bit too strong. I know! Lets nerf herald shield! > > > > > > > > Hmmmm, decap-Druid is kinda annoying. I know! Lets nerf Beastmode! > > > > > > > > Hmmmm, Scrapper is getting a bit too bunkery. I know! Lets nerf Holoforge damage! > > > > > > > > Hmmmm, Reaper damage output is a bit much. I know! Lets nerf Summon Shade! > > > > > > Actually this thread is about buffing power damage/skills and nerfing rapid burn application for Guardians > > > > We all know that that isn't how this works. Nerfs are never accompanied by buffs in other areas. There are only nerfs. > > Might be true, but a nerf is coming whether you like it or not. And honestly it is probably the best, I am myself getting tired of playing such a build and seeing also my own team mates getting wiped. That‘s why I made this thread to signal to ArenaNet „hey we Guardians will face alot of issues in doing actual damage once Burn DH is gone“. We need skills that actually hit, a rapid power damage incease and maybe some actual power damage on our F1 Virtue of Justice (around the damage range of Mace #3). ArenaNet nerfed every single mainhand weapon for Guardians with the symbol nerf and the rest of the skills on our skillbar are either support skills, hard to land for a slow class like us or do too little damage. We are basically left with our autoattack as only realiable damage source Yes, and whatever nerf is coming, should target Trapper-DH specifically, and not do just as much damage to power guardian, sagebrand, etc etc. The most obvious candidate which would only impact burn-DH is Trapper Rune.

I cannot begin to fathom the madness of people who want to nerf Power Guardian because of Burn DH. Same thing with core-Engi taking nerfs because of Holo, mesmer because of mirage, etc etc. Absolute madness. Power Guardian right now is C-tier, but yeah, lets nerf it some more because of Burn DH. Totally makes sense.

> @"Dantheman.3589" said: > I agree with the analysis of what’s wrong. But not the solution- as making it single target will just ruin the mechanic. As a solution I’d say just only touch on the damage of soj maybe nerf the power damage of that a lot and lower the burning a bit- if you think this is still too much just increase cd on utilities like traps to compensate /facepalm Burn DH does too much burning, I know, lets nerf the power damage of guardian! This forum.... unbelievable.

> @"snoow.1694" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > @"snoow.1694" said: > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > Strongly disagree. > > > > > > > > SoJ and Permeating Wrath are fine on any other build. Go try it on FB and see how effective it is (hint: it isn't). > > > > > > > > This is 100% a trapper-rune issue. > > > > > > > > > Trapper Runes can‘t put 22 stacks of burn onto you and is 100% a SoJ issue. It applies burn on each hit as well as proc‘ing Permeating Wrath every 3rd tick to add even more burn. > > > I mean I wouldn‘t care about Trapper Runes being removed, do that, but your team would still eat the same burn stacks. It wouldn‘t change anything > > > > Without traps and trapper-runes, a burn DH (running Zeal, Virtues, DH) would either be permanently in down-state, or, they'd have to give up either the Zeal or Virtues trait-lines to gain some sustain, which would mean the damage output would drop WAY off. > > > > Running Zeal, Virtues, DH as trait-lines means ZERO sustain, and a build like this will instantly die to anything that can see it coming. The ONLY thing that makes this trait setup viable is trapper runes. > > Except that we could drop DH in that case and go Valor (Meditations) + Zeal (SoJ) + Virtues (Permeating Wrath) and do the same thing, which some are already doing and it plays the same. > Also I think you are overestimating the sustain from 0.5 second stealth a trap offers before it reveals you. Again I don‘t care, nerf RoT as well, but that won‘t solve the problem And you're ignoring the superspeed, which is just as significant as the stealth. Also, dropping DH for Valor means no more Dragon's Maw, no more Procession of Blades. This means that the capability to actually kill anyone who's paying even 1% attention basically goes to zero.

> @"snoow.1694" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > Strongly disagree. > > > > SoJ and Permeating Wrath are fine on any other build. Go try it on FB and see how effective it is (hint: it isn't). > > > > This is 100% a trapper-rune issue. > > > Trapper Runes can‘t put 22 stacks of burn onto you and is 100% a SoJ issue. It applies burn on each hit as well as proc‘ing Permeating Wrath every 3rd tick to add even more burn. > I mean I wouldn‘t care about Trapper Runes being removed, do that, but your team would still eat the same burn stacks. It wouldn‘t change anything Without traps and trapper-runes, a burn DH (running Zeal, Virtues, DH) would either be permanently in down-state, or, they'd have to give up either the Zeal or Virtues trait-lines to gain some sustain, which would mean the damage output would drop WAY off. Running Zeal, Virtues, DH as trait-lines means ZERO sustain, and a build like this will instantly die to anything that can see it coming. The ONLY thing that makes this trait setup viable is trapper runes. The sooner trapper runes get removed, the better, so we can stop all this flailing around by people trying to nerf everything expect what is obviously the issue. Unfortunately, nerfing everything expect what is obviously the issue, is standard operating procedure at ANet, so, I'm pretty depressed right now about the future of guardian as a whole. It really sucks that this one build is going to get core power guard and FB nerfed even harder.

Strongly disagree. SoJ and Permeating Wrath are fine on any other build. Go try it on FB and see how effective it is (hint: it isn't). This is 100% a trapper-rune issue. Without traps and trapper-runes, a burn DH would either be permanently in down-state, or, they'd have to give up either the Zeal or Virtues trait-lines to gain some sustain, which would mean the damage output would drop WAY off.

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > > > > > If anything this video not only demonstrates how ridiculous it is for a heavy bruiser to be porting around while stealthed like a thief, but also how the burn condi is wildly strong right now. > > > > > > > > > > So uh... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thief is a **heavy bruiser** too? Because last I checked, the guardian and the thief has the same base hp. What makes the guardian so *heavy* outside of its fashion style? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't make petty arguments. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Guardians is a team fighter and can stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s without needing to leave. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Thieves get killed easily and quickly when trying to stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What part of a Trapper-DH's kit allows it to stay in a 4v4 any better than a thief? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We're talking about a build that has 0 defensive utilities, and which takes 0 sustain traits. No RF, no healing meditations, no healing symbols, no heal on aegis, no shouts, no stunbreak, no stab. There's the F3 skill on 50s cooldown........ but if one 3s block on 50s CD is enough to make a build a "heavy bruiser" then so is your GS soulbeast. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did you seriously just try to make an argument that the Guardian class is no better at staying in a 4v4 on a node than the Thief class? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Come on man. I know you want to find ways to argue with me, but have some self respect. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, not the class as a whole, we're talking about a specific build. Obviously other guardian builds are much more durable. > > > > > > > > > > > > The specific build of burn trapper-DH, is not better at staying in a 4v4 on node than thief. > > > > > > > > > > No > > > > > > > > > > Watch as much of this as you'd like. We're running an AT and 3 of our players are on Guardian, 2 of them are DHs. No one is running support, it's all DPS. In the video it is quite clear that DHs are currently the lords of the team fight. At one point in Capricorn they vie over the bell for an elongated amount of time vs. some of the better players in NA in a big 4v4. The DHs in the video, despite not having a support, are just as sustainy as any team fighter. **And might I point out that a Thief would not be able to hang in the middle of that 4v4 holding the bell without instantly exploding to all of the AoE. We both know that's true.** Enough with unreasonable argument. > > > > > > > > > > The point being is that this argument you have that "Trap DH is as squishy as a Thief" is not true. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Really? No support? What was the staff+mace/shield guard running then? And what was giving AoE stability? I also see a SpB with sword/warhorn and warbanner? Looks like it takes 2x support to keep them up. Did you even take the time to look at this vid before posting it? I'm sure the other people giving you thumbs-up didn't. But I did. You're lying. > > > > > > > > And also, yes, they stay alive by using the trapper rune to disengage when pressured. Think about how the exact same build minus trapper rune would fare? > > > > > > > > To be honest, whether or not thief is 5% more or less tanky is a fairly pointless debate. My point remains that a trapper DH is not a super-sustainy heavy bruiser. You can build other DH builds like that, but not the trapper burn build. > > > > > > > > Take a look at the final match, where basically as soon as the revs/engis push into mid, your DHs have to stealth and kite back, because there's no way they can go toe-to-toe in that environment. > > > > > > > > "It can stay alive in TF even without support" -> proceeds to link video showing TWO supports. > > > > > > Umm not arguing either way but all guard and guard specs are a hell of a lot more than 5% tankier than the tankiest thief, talking of damage taken or mitigated by other means than evades obviously. > > > > Why are you allowed to discount damage mitigated by evade? Can I discount damage blocked? > > Because guards can evade to, it's a universal damage mitigation. Regardless as I said guard is designed around less mobility and disengage potential than thief but more in fight sustain, if u cant see that I donno man. Guards can't evade as much as thief. Are you really arguing that thief and guard have the same amount of evade? And, uuuuuurrrgh, for christ's sake. Of course MOST guard builds are much better at sustaining in a fight. But not SPECIFICALLY the trapper-DH build. Because it's entire utility bar is damage, and so are all its traits. Can we please try and understand that a trapper-DH is not the same build as a core-bunker ??

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > @"ollbirtan.2915" said: > > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" I gave up playing chess with pigeons. Impossible to reason when pitchforks are out. The mob will get what it wants and move on to next target, > > > > > > > > > > > > Y'ALL!!! Shall we NERF TEEEF NEXT? IS OP! > > > > > > > > > > I dunno, ask @"Ragnar.4257" about that one. Apparently he knows of a secret Thief build that can tank like a Guardian in a team fight and hold nodes without needing to stealth or kite off. > > > > > > > > I never claimed that thief could do that. > > > > > > > > I claimed that the trapper-DH build can't. > > > > > > > > Do try to keep up. > > > > > > lol, dude you said that: > > > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > > > The specific build of burn trapper-DH, is not better at staying in a 4v4 on node than thief. > > > > > > I'd just want to point out right now that in 9 years of play and 20,000 games, I have never once seen 4 thieves stay on a node and hold in a team fight vs. 4 DHs. Clearly this is something that would never be able to happen lol. I don't know why you even went there with your argument. > > > > > > > > > > 1. Saying "it is not better at staying in a 4v4" is not the same as saying "it can totally stay in a 4v4". It means, exactly what it says. That a trapper-DH cannot stay in a 4v4 on node through its own sustain. It must either kite away and reset with stealth, like a thief, or, it must have 2x support, like a thief. > > > > 2. A made-up scenario of 4x Thief vs 4x DH is hardly relevant. 4x thief will struggle into basically anything, it's not an argument. > > So you're telling me, that when you form an MAT team, 2x Thieves are as good of a replacement for node holding team fighters as 2x DHs? > > Amazing comp. I'm sure that team will win. They will definitely be able to hold nodes against teams that have DHs and Renegades as team fighters. DH can't hold those points either. You keep trying to make it sound like I'm saying thief is good at holding nodes. I don't know how many other ways I can explain this...... but I'll say it yet again. My point is NOT that Thief is good at surviving in a 4v4 (without stealth). My point is that trapper-DH is not good at surviving in a 4v4 (without stealth) Honestly, you have to be trolling at this point. This is 3 times now I've said "DH isn't good at surviving 4v4" and you come back with "so you're saying thief is good in 4v4" ????

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > @"ollbirtan.2915" said: > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" I gave up playing chess with pigeons. Impossible to reason when pitchforks are out. The mob will get what it wants and move on to next target, > > > > > > > > Y'ALL!!! Shall we NERF TEEEF NEXT? IS OP! > > > > > > I dunno, ask @"Ragnar.4257" about that one. Apparently he knows of a secret Thief build that can tank like a Guardian in a team fight and hold nodes without needing to stealth or kite off. > > > > I never claimed that thief could do that. > > > > I claimed that the trapper-DH build can't. > > > > Do try to keep up. > > lol, dude you said that: > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > The specific build of burn trapper-DH, is not better at staying in a 4v4 on node than thief. > > I'd just want to point out right now that in 9 years of play and 20,000 games, I have never once seen 4 thieves stay on a node and hold in a team fight vs. 4 DHs. Clearly this is something that would never be able to happen lol. I don't know why you even went there with your argument. > > 1. Saying "it is not better at staying in a 4v4" is not the same as saying "it can totally stay in a 4v4". It means, exactly what it says. That a trapper-DH cannot stay in a 4v4 on node through its own sustain. It must either kite away and reset with stealth, like a thief, or, it must have 2x support, like a thief. 2. A made-up scenario of 4x Thief vs 4x DH is hardly relevant. 4x thief will struggle into basically anything, it's not an argument.

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"ollbirtan.2915" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" I gave up playing chess with pigeons. Impossible to reason when pitchforks are out. The mob will get what it wants and move on to next target, > > > > Y'ALL!!! Shall we NERF TEEEF NEXT? IS OP! > > I dunno, ask @"Ragnar.4257" about that one. Apparently he knows of a secret Thief build that can tank like a Guardian in a team fight and hold nodes without needing to stealth or kite off. I never claimed that thief could do that. I claimed that the trapper-DH build can't. Do try to keep up.

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > > > If anything this video not only demonstrates how ridiculous it is for a heavy bruiser to be porting around while stealthed like a thief, but also how the burn condi is wildly strong right now. > > > > > > > > So uh... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thief is a **heavy bruiser** too? Because last I checked, the guardian and the thief has the same base hp. What makes the guardian so *heavy* outside of its fashion style? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't make petty arguments. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Guardians is a team fighter and can stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s without needing to leave. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Thieves get killed easily and quickly when trying to stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What part of a Trapper-DH's kit allows it to stay in a 4v4 any better than a thief? > > > > > > > > > > > > We're talking about a build that has 0 defensive utilities, and which takes 0 sustain traits. No RF, no healing meditations, no healing symbols, no heal on aegis, no shouts, no stunbreak, no stab. There's the F3 skill on 50s cooldown........ but if one 3s block on 50s CD is enough to make a build a "heavy bruiser" then so is your GS soulbeast. > > > > > > > > > > Did you seriously just try to make an argument that the Guardian class is no better at staying in a 4v4 on a node than the Thief class? > > > > > > > > > > Come on man. I know you want to find ways to argue with me, but have some self respect. > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, not the class as a whole, we're talking about a specific build. Obviously other guardian builds are much more durable. > > > > > > > > The specific build of burn trapper-DH, is not better at staying in a 4v4 on node than thief. > > > > > > No > > > > > > Watch as much of this as you'd like. We're running an AT and 3 of our players are on Guardian, 2 of them are DHs. No one is running support, it's all DPS. In the video it is quite clear that DHs are currently the lords of the team fight. At one point in Capricorn they vie over the bell for an elongated amount of time vs. some of the better players in NA in a big 4v4. The DHs in the video, despite not having a support, are just as sustainy as any team fighter. **And might I point out that a Thief would not be able to hang in the middle of that 4v4 holding the bell without instantly exploding to all of the AoE. We both know that's true.** Enough with unreasonable argument. > > > > > > The point being is that this argument you have that "Trap DH is as squishy as a Thief" is not true. > > > > > > > > > > Really? No support? What was the staff+mace/shield guard running then? And what was giving AoE stability? I also see a SpB with sword/warhorn and warbanner? Looks like it takes 2x support to keep them up. Did you even take the time to look at this vid before posting it? I'm sure the other people giving you thumbs-up didn't. But I did. You're lying. > > > > And also, yes, they stay alive by using the trapper rune to disengage when pressured. Think about how the exact same build minus trapper rune would fare? > > > > To be honest, whether or not thief is 5% more or less tanky is a fairly pointless debate. My point remains that a trapper DH is not a super-sustainy heavy bruiser. You can build other DH builds like that, but not the trapper burn build. > > > > Take a look at the final match, where basically as soon as the revs/engis push into mid, your DHs have to stealth and kite back, because there's no way they can go toe-to-toe in that environment. > > > > "It can stay alive in TF even without support" -> proceeds to link video showing TWO supports. > > Umm not arguing either way but all guard and guard specs are a hell of a lot more than 5% tankier than the tankiest thief, talking of damage taken or mitigated by other means than evades obviously. Why are you allowed to discount damage mitigated by evade? Can I discount damage blocked?

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > If anything this video not only demonstrates how ridiculous it is for a heavy bruiser to be porting around while stealthed like a thief, but also how the burn condi is wildly strong right now. > > > > > > So uh... > > > > > > > > > > > > The thief is a **heavy bruiser** too? Because last I checked, the guardian and the thief has the same base hp. What makes the guardian so *heavy* outside of its fashion style? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't make petty arguments. > > > > > > > > > > As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Guardians is a team fighter and can stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s without needing to leave. > > > > > > > > > > As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Thieves get killed easily and quickly when trying to stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What part of a Trapper-DH's kit allows it to stay in a 4v4 any better than a thief? > > > > > > > > We're talking about a build that has 0 defensive utilities, and which takes 0 sustain traits. No RF, no healing meditations, no healing symbols, no heal on aegis, no shouts, no stunbreak, no stab. There's the F3 skill on 50s cooldown........ but if one 3s block on 50s CD is enough to make a build a "heavy bruiser" then so is your GS soulbeast. > > > > > > Did you seriously just try to make an argument that the Guardian class is no better at staying in a 4v4 on a node than the Thief class? > > > > > > Come on man. I know you want to find ways to argue with me, but have some self respect. > > > > > > > No, not the class as a whole, we're talking about a specific build. Obviously other guardian builds are much more durable. > > > > The specific build of burn trapper-DH, is not better at staying in a 4v4 on node than thief. > > No > > Watch as much of this as you'd like. We're running an AT and 3 of our players are on Guardian, 2 of them are DHs. No one is running support, it's all DPS. In the video it is quite clear that DHs are currently the lords of the team fight. At one point in Capricorn they vie over the bell for an elongated amount of time vs. some of the better players in NA in a big 4v4. The DHs in the video, despite not having a support, are just as sustainy as any team fighter. **And might I point out that a Thief would not be able to hang in the middle of that 4v4 holding the bell without instantly exploding to all of the AoE. We both know that's true.** Enough with unreasonable argument. > > The point being is that this argument you have that "Trap DH is as squishy as a Thief" is not true. > > Really? No support? What was the staff+mace/shield guard running then? And what was giving AoE stability? I also see a SpB with sword/warhorn and warbanner? Looks like it takes 2x support to keep them up. Did you even take the time to look at this vid before posting it? I'm sure the other people giving you thumbs-up didn't. But I did. You're lying. And also, yes, they stay alive by using the trapper rune to disengage when pressured. Think about how the exact same build minus trapper rune would fare? To be honest, whether or not thief is 5% more or less tanky is a fairly pointless debate. My point remains that a trapper DH is not a super-sustainy heavy bruiser. You can build other DH builds like that, but not the trapper burn build. Take a look at the final match, where basically as soon as the revs/engis push into mid, your DHs have to stealth and kite back, because there's no way they can go toe-to-toe in that environment. "It can stay alive in TF even without support" -> proceeds to link video showing TWO supports.

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > If anything this video not only demonstrates how ridiculous it is for a heavy bruiser to be porting around while stealthed like a thief, but also how the burn condi is wildly strong right now. > > > > So uh... > > > > > > > > The thief is a **heavy bruiser** too? Because last I checked, the guardian and the thief has the same base hp. What makes the guardian so *heavy* outside of its fashion style? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't make petty arguments. > > > > > > As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Guardians is a team fighter and can stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s without needing to leave. > > > > > > As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Thieves get killed easily and quickly when trying to stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s. > > > > > > > > > > What part of a Trapper-DH's kit allows it to stay in a 4v4 any better than a thief? > > > > We're talking about a build that has 0 defensive utilities, and which takes 0 sustain traits. No RF, no healing meditations, no healing symbols, no heal on aegis, no shouts, no stunbreak, no stab. There's the F3 skill on 50s cooldown........ but if one 3s block on 50s CD is enough to make a build a "heavy bruiser" then so is your GS soulbeast. > > Did you seriously just try to make an argument that the Guardian class is no better at staying in a 4v4 on a node than the Thief class? > > Come on man. I know you want to find ways to argue with me, but have some self respect. > No, not the class as a whole, we're talking about a specific build. Obviously other guardian builds are much more durable. The specific build of burn trapper-DH, is not better at staying in a 4v4 on node than thief. If you diagree, why don't you list some of the sustain tools that would allow a burn-trapper-DH to stay in a 4v4, that a thief could not build an equivalent for?

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > @"Brokensunday.4098" said: > > Dh is not the problem is true, trappers and permeating wrath trait are, guardian in general need buff all across the board it got its power nearly gutted but that trait and runes set needs a nerf. > > This^ trapper rune and permeating wrath trait are what is promoting the brain dead spam builds on guard, rework or hard nerf both than buff guards in other area to promote a more skill full less spammy playstyle. To be honest, Permeating Wrath and regular VoJ should probably have their proc-rates swapped. It doesn't make sense that the single-target one hits every 5 strikes, while the AoE one hits every 3.

> @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > If anything this video not only demonstrates how ridiculous it is for a heavy bruiser to be porting around while stealthed like a thief, but also how the burn condi is wildly strong right now. > > > > So uh... > > > > > > > > The thief is a **heavy bruiser** too? Because last I checked, the guardian and the thief has the same base hp. What makes the guardian so *heavy* outside of its fashion style? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't make petty arguments. > > > > > > As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Guardians is a team fighter and can stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s without needing to leave. > > > > > > As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Thieves get killed easily and quickly when trying to stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s. > > > > > > > > > > What part of a Trapper-DH's kit allows it to stay in a 4v4 any better than a thief? > > > > We're talking about a build that has 0 defensive utilities, and which takes 0 sustain traits. No RF, no healing meditations, no healing symbols, no heal on aegis, no shouts, no stunbreak, no stab. There's the F3 skill on 50s cooldown........ but if one 3s block on 50s CD is enough to make a build a "heavy bruiser" then so is your GS soulbeast. > > The part where you don't actually have to be part of the teamfight, because on demand stealth. Right. But his point was that you shouldn't be able to be a heavy-bruiser AND be able to skip around teamfights with stealth. MY point was that trapper-DH is NOT both a heavy-bruiser and a stealthy-boy. It's just a stealthy-boy that is just as vulnerable as thief if you take away stealth.

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > If anything this video not only demonstrates how ridiculous it is for a heavy bruiser to be porting around while stealthed like a thief, but also how the burn condi is wildly strong right now. > > So uh... > > > > The thief is a **heavy bruiser** too? Because last I checked, the guardian and the thief has the same base hp. What makes the guardian so *heavy* outside of its fashion style? > > > > > > Don't make petty arguments. > > As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Guardians is a team fighter and can stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s without needing to leave. > > As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Thieves get killed easily and quickly when trying to stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s. > > What part of a Trapper-DH's kit allows it to stay in a 4v4 any better than a thief? We're talking about a build that has 0 defensive utilities, and which takes 0 sustain traits. No RF, no healing meditations, no healing symbols, no heal on aegis, no shouts, no stunbreak, no stab. There's the F3 skill on 50s cooldown........ but if one 3s block on 50s CD is enough to make a build a "heavy bruiser" then so is your GS soulbeast.

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > I mean, I don' t disagree that trapper rune needs to go. > > > > But this clip, shows you able to 1-shot a guy from ranged, and then able to face-tank a full unload of a burn-DH's burst and walk out of it just fine while the DH barely escapes with 10% HP. > > 1. I didn't "Face Tank" anything, I used a block skill. In fact, I had to burn every resource I had to not die, and even then I only walked away from his stealth gank with a sliver of my health pool. > 2. I didn't "walk out of it fine" I was at like 3% health after it happened. > > Might want to reassess your evaluation of what happened there. > > > > Oh, so if you use block skills, it doesn't count as face-tanking. Nice, I'll remember that for next QQ thread about Aegis. And yet, by the end of the engagement (before OOC reset) you're basically back at full HP while the DH is still down at 10%. Again, I don't disagree with removing trapper rune, I just think it's a strange clip to try and show how OP it is.

I mean, I don' t disagree that trapper rune needs to go. But this clip, shows you able to 1-shot a guy from ranged, and then able to face-tank a full unload of a burn-DH's burst and walk out of it just fine while the DH barely escapes with 10% HP.

> @"Ovark.2514" said: > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > It's as they say. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink. > > > > We can show you all the tools you have at your disposal to counterplay guards, but it's on you to implement them. Good guardian players will know what their weaknesses are and attempt to play around them, the same as good players on any build, but no amount of skill can completely eliminate the build's weaknesses. > > > > Luckily, as you stated "most guardians are walking forward and pressing buttons" so most guards you encounter should be easy to outplay. Predictability is a death sentence, even on a meta build. > > > > -------------- > > > > In other news, I have officially joined the 4 star club! Neat :) > > Guardian is designed to succeed in sPvP over basically every other class. If you choose to take single hit burst, they have aegis to counter. If you take many multi-hit skills you will die to retal. If you do condi damage they have cleanse built into whatever spec you take. They have on-demand blind for anything they miss with aegis. They can skill stack better than pretty much any other class. The area control offered by symbols and traps is second-to-none. They have the power to instantly revive allies at range. They can port through walls. They have stunbreaks for days, or if the stunbreaks are gone they can activate the blind or aegis, shield of wrath, or retal as necessary. They have instant activation aoe CC. They have projectile block/reflect. **Counterplaying a guard is harder than doing so for any other class.** Historically people have excused guardians insane strength by calling it the slowest class or that it doesn't have tools like stealth. Turns out, Trapper runes make up for the only deficiencies guard had. Edit: Oh, completely forgot: They have the biggest get-out-of-jail-free card ever in the form of invulnerability. What is this "on demand blind" ? You mean the 1 skill on sword? OMG guardian has 1 skill on 1 weapon that can blind, that must mean it has perma insta infinite blind. And it's not like Rev, Ranger, Engi, Thief, Mes, Ele all have access to just as much blind? Right? "revive allies at range" - you're suggesting that trapper-DH is taking Signet of Mercy? What? "Stunbreaks for days" - the trapper-DH build runs ZERO stunbreaks. What? Aegis on Trapper DH? What? There's the 1 aegis from Shield 4 which has a long and obvious cast, and 1 aegis when disabled from trait, which is on 60s cd? You can't get through 2 aegis in 60s? Mesmer has more aegis than this. "biggest get out of jail free card in the form of invulnerability" - Trapper DH doesn't run RF, what are you talking about? "instant activation AoE CC" ???? If you're referring to Dragon's Maw, that isn't an instant-skill. It can't be used while disabled. You've imagined some magical guardian build that is taking 6 trait lines, 10 utilities and 5 weapons. This is the most ridiculous take I've ever seen. I can do the same with any class, be it thief, ranger, ele, engi, etc etc. I can imagine a build that is somehow using all 7 traitlines, 10+ utilities, 2 amulets simultaneously, and then list all the OP stuff this build would be able to do.