Bast.7253

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:

> > Wait ... !?

> > Kralkatorrik's mother is alive ?

> Nothing indicates she is.

>

> > @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> >Plus, this could possibly be last expansion.

> I could very easily see this being the case.

>

> We have already killed 3 Elder Dragons, and with the way IBS is going we are likely to bring down number 4 before the expansion drops. Either the expansion itself, or the expansion + Canthan LW season will deal with Bubbles, leaving only Primordus to deal with. And that doesn't really require an expansion, that could just be done in another LW season.

>

> The vast majority of the major plot threads the game has ever set up are resolved by now. With only a few smaller ones left. And Cantha is the last major area we don't have represented in GW2 yet.

The devs have gone out of their way to say that they have plenty of story left to tell. So, I see no reason as to why there wouldn't be any room for more story/another expansion. Especially dealing with the gods.

After all, what we see on the in-game map is a tiny portion of the entire planet according to the Globe of Whispers. If it's profitable, they'll come up with something.

> @"Smoosh.2718" said:

> After thinking about the EoD trailer, this might be a stab in the dark but also might be correct, the mysterious voice we hear in the trailer talking to Kuunavang could actually be Dwayna. The magic in the air is a blue/white colour which looks like it could relate to her.

> Also being that the Tyrian gods left the world to find a new world for the faithful to live in... If this is correct then this could be the first steps of guild wars moving into a new world.

>

> "Oloko, a priest of Kormir, received a vision from Kormir in which it was revealed to him that the remaining gods left in search of a new world without threats like the Elder Dragons that they could prepare for their faithful. "

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Six_Human_Gods

>

> This however also could be far off and could actually just be a new dragon talking that we havent met yet.

If it's any of the gods it would be Lyssa. Dwayna always seemed like the leader of the group so I imagine she would have been the first to leave. I could see them reentering the picture after this expansion if the cycle of the elder dragons is resolved, but in terms of the color scheme I think it's just mean to be bright and colorful.

The purple fog is definitely Miasma, imo. Going back and looking at some of the GW1 areas there isn't any doubt it's implying that. Also, the teaser, more and more, feels like a vision looking into the past.

The new fractal will probably give a lot more to speculate on. In terms of the other floating lights or "magic in the air", especially the opening part where we're zooming through Cantha, to me it looks most like Aurene. At certain points it also has specs of multiple other colors. I think this is just us seeing through her perspective flying through at light speed.

If it is modern day it doesn't really change much. I'm assuming it's confirmed the dragon at the end is Kunavang, so this could be a vision Aurene witnesses in which Kunavang is somehow summoning Aurene in the vision and glancing up at the camera and focusing in could be more of sign of Kunavang acknowledging Aurene's presence while the mysterious voice is just off in the background somewhere, or a memory/conversation Kunavang is sharing with her letting her know that she needs our help. I really think the gods angle is going to take a break, at least for the expansion's part of the story and then potentially pick back up in the living season.

The heroes thing isn't a bad suggestion.

Of the other possibilities:

1. Given the recent wvw event, I could see them allowing "dual-spec" in the sense that you maybe get ONE trait line and it's associated utility skills. But even this is iffy.

2. A new playable race. (For all we know the idea of adding Tengu has been floating around for a long time and they may have been fitting older gear to them for awhile now but not released it so it hasn't been able to be mined.)

3. Housing - probably less likely but a possibility.

4. Scaleable difficulty in open world. Like being able to enter a specific instance of a map that's "hard-mode," though I'd imagine this isn't all that likely given that the hard-mode version would presumably be higher rewards and the majority of open world content you can just throw more bodies at to trivialize it.

5. "Sailing" in the sense that you have a personal-housing type/Sun's Refuge type feature that can be upgraded and potentially incorporate the heroes feature with npc's to assist you in the open world. Though I really think we'll be mostly inland for this expansion. The only argument for this would be if Cantha was still hesitant about letting outsiders in and we simply can only sail to an area to create our own personal base and then go to the mainland.

6. Access to other weapons across all specs, i.e. underwater weapons above land, more weapon combinations. Though they might not do this because they might want to save some for future expansions (if there continue to be more and if this expansion sells/does really well I'm sure they will.)

Honeslty, no idea though.

Plot twist:

The other voice IS the DSD, and it's a two-headed dragon with a male voice, and a female voice. It's Mother AND Father.

It's interesting that the German was is definitely two female voices though. Because I've listened to it countless times and it still seemed like it could be male to me.

Another non-binary dragon like Jormag probably makes the most sense though. So far I guess Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and Kralk were all confirmed male?

Primordus is... male as well right? Jormag is non-binary. I does seem odd that they wouldn't have a specifically female elder dragon? Unless that's another reason why Aurene is "unique." Not only in the way she can handle magic, but that she could be the only definitively female elder dragon. And as we don't really know how dragons reproduce, could she be the first elder dragon to birth more elder dragons?

I mean it would seem that Glint had to come from somewhere in order to have Aurene and the others.

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> I'm hoping for 3 VOTP updates because if they can somehow recreate Marionette and Battle for LA using strike or open instances like Forging Steel, then that would benefit from a split release, alongside instances for Southson/Canach, Nightmare Tower or some other Toxic Alliance instance and Scarlets introduction at the Jubilee

I'm hoping that it eventually becomes more than just an introduction for upcoming episodes and we get to use this as a way of discovering things we otherwise wouldn't, as they happened in history with a definitive point in time unlike Fractals which could be set in an alternate timeline or another dimension, or even another planet for that matter. They did a really good job with the last one and I feel like it's a feature, that if continued, could be great if it were expanded upon. But I see them letting the feature die the same way Fractals and Raids seemingly have. (Except probably not even getting one every year or two like fractals.)

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Bast.7253" said:

> > Also have to wonder still why Jormag and Primordus seem to be the only two with solid evidence that they directly counter each other. It can't be as simple as fire and ice.

> >

> > Why do none of the others seem to?

> Zhaitan and Mordremoth do seem to counter each other, based on Season 3.

>

> In Season 3 Episode 3 A Crack in the Ice, we have the Unstable Abomination in which we see plant and death magic creatures explode and harm the opposite upon death. In Episode 6 One Path Ends, there's dialogue in Siren's Landing that suggests that where Zhaitan was death, Mordremoth was life, making them opposites.

>

> If Anet ever decides to solidify the implication, then Kralkatorrik/Aurene and the DSD are also opposites.

>

> This would also indicate that Jormag's unique weakness is _not_ Primordus (and vice versa) and that there is another method to kill both, that may be less harmful to the world.

That makes sense. And provides a good excuse as to why Aurene wouldn't be able to be heavily involved in the upcoming expansion. I forgot about Season 3 and the unstable abomination but it did seem like Zhaitan and Mordremoth should have been conflicting forces.

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"Bast.7253" said:

> > It feels like we have so little left of this Saga and still so much lore that hasn't been touched in terms of the Norn, Spirits, or Koda.

> Well, there was a book back in episode 2 that said Jormag knows something about the Kodan, the other races of Tyria, and the Mists. I could see them expanding upon that if/when we got back into the Shiverpeaks.

>

> I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Anet pull a "Koda is actually Jormag" twist(and I use that word with heavy sarcasm). People have already pointed out how the claw/voice system the Kodan use is the same of Jormag's claw and voice. Some Kodan in Still Waters speaking speculate on the possibility. And Jormag claims to want to spare the Norn because it sees them as strong, and worthy, perhaps it did the same with the Kodan last cycle.

I'd buy it. It would be nice to get a little background on Koda either way. I wonder if Jormag was once GOOD, or if it was just much more mild in terms of using its persuasion and has gone mad over the centuries like Kralk did, corrupting its original intent then. I guess this would mean that Jormag created the spirits of the wild.

So many interesting possibilities.

Also have to wonder still why Jormag and Primordus seem to be the only two with solid evidence that they directly counter each other. It can't be as simple as fire and ice.

Why do none of the others seem to?

I find the whole Koda thing really interesting to. When it mentions the Fire Spirit growing and causing destruction in its wake. Could this fire spirit have been Primordus?

It mentions Spirits of Stone, Water, Wind, Soil, Plants, and essentially all life.

Could these spirits have manifested in the same way the Spirit of Fire did? Becoming the elder dragons we know today?

It feels like we have so little left of this Saga and still so much lore that hasn't been touched in terms of the Norn, Spirits, or Koda.

So, my original guess was that the DSD was dead, but as people have pointed out with the All, it seems as though it's still kicking.

A lot of people are speculating that the second voice we hear in the trailer is "Mother." But when Kralk said "Mother" it could have just as easily meant that he was rejoining her, not that he killed her or was calling out for her for help. This would make me think that he was joining her in death.

With the Glowing Orb in Malchor's leap looking so similar to Kralk's heart, could it be that the golden orb is what's left of Mother? The orb as commented by the inquest seems to resist Zhaitan's corruption but also corrupts the land around it, turning it into metal. What kind of artifact would have that effect? And if it were a remnant of Orr, why wouldn't there be anymore information on it?

It definitely seems like it's related to the elder dragons. It may not necessarily be "Mother" or the aftermath of her, but could be a remnant of a previous dragon rise. Odd that it seems to be in this position after the rise of Orr, because if it was there before it had to have shifted with the rising of the island. If it was there after, why wouldn't there be any information on it?

If it IS an elder dragon heart, I wonder why it's just been sitting there and Zhaitan never seemed to express interest in it. It's obviously a pretty significant source of power, you'd think Zhaitan would have done something with it. Or they did, and this is just the residual magic left in it.

Such a mystery and it's odd we haven't gotten any information on it, given how much has happened since the core game.

I may have also just lost my sanity because I converted 1000 grains of coarse sand into golden sand in the hopes that it will someday have a purpose, or I'll magically discover one. :lol:

Hmm, what about Water and Spirit?

One would have originally thought Jormag would have been Spirit given how it coaxes people, but now that we know it's persuasion it seems like a possibility. I mean really anything is a possibility at this point. Just throwing things out there.

There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of consistency with the different domains, but we have so far:

Primordus - Fire and Conflagration

Jormag - Ice and Persuasion

Zhaitan - Death and Shadow

Kralk - Crystal and Fury

Mordremoth - Plant and Mind

DSD - presumably Water and something else.

Conflagration seems as though it could mean fire or conflict/war. It would be a little odd to have Fire twice.

Without seeing a pattern it's hard to speculate as to why the domains would have been devised this way. Am I missing a correlation here?

Conflagration, Persuasion, Shadow, Fury, Mind. Seems odd that Jormag would have domain over persuasion which seems oddly specific compared to the rest.

I wonder what the intention of this design was in terms of the natural cycle of life on Tyria.

Also thinking in terms of opposites and weaknesses, why Primordus and Jormag? Is it solely fire versus ice? Is it conflict versus persuasion?

Was just trying to think of what the DSD could be but some of these just seem a little too random and like there isn't much of a point in trying to find a pattern.

> @"Teratus.2859" said:

> I haven't played the last 2 episodes so im behind on the story atm.

>

> But I hope not, While I very much enjoyed how well Kralkatorrik was done, I still believe that killing the games main and biggest antagonists during living world is a waste.

> They should be set up during living world and saved for expansions, they deserve at least that much.

>

> I think this whole End of Dragons thing is being taken a bit too literally by some.. I do not think the next expansion which takes place on another continent which has so far had absolutely no involvement with events on mainland Tyria will somehow play this big a part in the story that ends the Elder Dragons.

>

> End of Dragons could mean something totally different there, the end of the Dragon Empire?, the end of the Saltspray's?, the end of some major part of their culture?.. it's too early to tell right now and we've too little to go on.

>

> The Logo hints at 2 dragons.. could it be Sea Dragon and Jormag? one is white after all, Sea Dragon and Aurine? she is also white/clear, both Sea Dragon hinting at multiple heads like old concept art once depicted?..

> Again we don't know.

> We do know Jormag hinted at a threat on the horizon though and that we will need her help to deal with it.. Bangar also talked about creating a Charr empire that would span all the way to Cantha so maybe from that we can speculate that the expansion will come after IBS and it will feature Jormag and Sea dragon as enemies with us trapped in the middle.

> Hell maybe we'll get to Cantha by following Jormag there after she freezes a chunk of the ocean.. who knows.

>

> Either way a lot of us have speculated that Primordus maybe and probably should be the last big Dragon threat, so this certainly tends to support that might happen.

> But we still have to answer the question of what happens if DSD and Jormag die in Cantha?

>

> Kuunavang and Albax could be potential Elder Dragon candidates.. but I really hope it doesn't end up just being Aurine can handle it all.. that would really be a bad decision imo and would disappoint a good number of people.

Well the teaser also talks about the cycle being reborn.

So it's fair to assume it's referring to the elder dragons.

If I had to guess I would say Jormag and Primordus kill each other this season. If not I could see Primordus moving south since there are already dredge tunnels leading from Northern Shiverpeaks to Cantha. The logo could be potentially hinting at one dragon below, and one above. So Primordus below and DSD above. But I think that's far less likely than it being two saltspreys competing for ascension or, symbolizing the resolution of the cycle completely and having TWO elder dragons that cycle magics similar to how Glint planned. Perhaps with Aurene and Kunavang.

I wouldn't think too much on the color scheme. It could also show one dragon, with its reflection rippling in a pool of water and choosing white was their way of showing the reflection as minimalist as possible, (especially given that it's a scaleable vector graphic that probably NEEDS to be as simple as possible and will be used on the login, website, and multiple other sources.)

I could see "End of Dragons" being about the end of the Dragon Empire, but then referencing the cycle being reborn makes it seem pretty straight forward.

You also have to consider how many people have openly voiced being tired of the Elder Dragon plot. We're at the point now where we can't kill anymore and we can't seem to trust them either, so there really isn't much room for them to devise new plots outside of killing them off. They've been alive for thousands of years and responsible for the falls of countless civilizations, I don't really see us being able to coax them into behaving nicely now, even with Aurene.

And honestly, keeping the plot centered around elder dragons forever kind of limits the playable space. I'd love to eventually see distant parts of Tyria and am glad we're finally getting to see Cantha to finish out the GW1 locations. If the franchise continues, which they've implied it will, we may see the potential for much more interesting things than Elder Dragons and may also pull in a bunch of new players that weren't huge fans of the elder dragon conflict.

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"Bast.7253" said:

> > With Jormag going through the mists I'm not sure why she would stick to being up north, especially as it can create portals to summon minions pretty much wherever it wants.

> Because that is where its established power base is. Even if you can teleport troops in, going too far out just makes you vulnerable. Also, the spirirts of the wild are a massive source of magic, and thus food, for Jormag. So staying up there to try to get at them makes sense.

>

> >From that I would say we're either going far east into uncharted Charr territory and discovering a new band of humans and centaurs (isn't there some faction of Canthans that wound up leaving Cantha and could potentially be these humans that are being enslaved?), or we'll be going west of Drizzlewood closer to Bastion above Harathi.

> Why would humans and centaurs be east, in Charr territory, instead of the actual centaur territory to the west of Drizzlewood, in the area between Bastion and the Highland, where the centaurs actually are?

I mean, it doesn't really make sense to me either, but I threw out the possibility that there could be a random civilzation of humans and centaur out there. We don't really know as it's uncharted territory. Unlikely, but they did already expand the map and we still don't really know what's going to pull us to Cantha. I would think the area near Bastion is much more likely but there's just as little reason to expand in that territory either. I mean, sure, "proximity" to the spirits. But beyond sticking close to that region there's no real reason for Jormag to go there. If we do wind up there, I feel like the plot will be putting Jormag on the backburner and jumping more into Tengu/setting up our track to Cantha.

In terms of proximity to the spirits, that makes sense. But we already know that Jormag is moving through Tyria using the mists. So, why would Jormag even move to begin with? Unless it's searching for something, and that something is more enticing than the spirits. I mean we have a giant god cookie island in the middle of the ocean, numerous bloodstones still, and that's just what we know about.

Or for that matter, Jormag could assume that Primordus is still asleep and be looking to make a move. Jormag was already at their "established power base" near the spirits, and still managed to be wounded pretty bad by Primordus. So it doesn't seem like it's that much of an advantage assuming Jormag's real concern is Primordus.

But again, the key here is what is driving Jormag to move through Tyria in the first place. Doesn't really seem like exercise is the sole motivation. There has to be something else.

All I remember them saying was coming in September was the fractal, though I suppose it could come with a Vision as it would make sense to lead into the next map release. Otherwise I'd a fractal in September and MAYBE an episode in November, or maybe just a vision with the final two episodes coming in early 2021.

Was was the deal with the tomes anyway? It was 9 slots right? But were 2 slots of the tome related to the two halves of the map released in different episodes? If that's the case we would be looking at 4 maps - 8 episodes, plus the prologue.

Though they could always switch it up and decide to release a full map, which would throw everything out of whack.

But yeah, I definitely wouldn't expect the next expansion until next August at the earliest. The whole thing seems a little strange though.

They seemed pretty adamant about there NOT being an expansion during the Icebrood announcement. So either they weren't being honest, or they had a change of mind either due to new management, NCSoft, or ill-received enthusiasm for the Icebrood announcement. If they changed their mind, it's possible they could finish up the saga sooner than expected. I had fully anticipated this saga to last much longer than 2021, so the fact that they stated a solid release year for the expansion makes me think they've made a lot of headway on its development.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Bast.7253" said:

> > I don't know that it would necessarily be a "retcon" though, as much as an expansion on pre-existing knowledge/assumptions.

> >

> > I've always thought that whole thing was suspicious, personally. One man steals a remnant of Dwayna's power, just a regular mortal, and manages to somehow scream and petrify a whole sea and forest?

> >

> > Meanwhile, an ELDER DRAGON, has to fly above an area and breathe branded breath on a piece of land to make the same dent. It's always felt like there's more at play here, because Shiro really doesn't seem like he should be capable of that much devastation (even if he has some remnant of a God's power). And it seems rather odd in general that Dwayna's magic would have resulted in things petrifying. I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that it was Dwayna's magic amplified/twisted by the DSD. Because it just doesn't really make sense that a mere mortal would be able to do that, especially in comparison to some of the other comparable characters we've seen in game. Of the most powerful I'm only immediately able to think of Jenna and Xera - both were mesmers and merely created large illusions, not altering the very terrain.

> >

> > Was Balthazar, even at demi-god status, even able to perform such a feat?

>

> Shiro didn't just "somehow stole" the magic. He underwent and studied dark rituals and magic, enchanted his weapons, and prepared spells for the process - all through the subtle and unknown-to-Shiro guidance of Abaddon. And it honestly makes sense that the patron of _Preservation Magic_ would petrify - what happens if you preserve something too much? It goes into stasis - it petrifies.

>

> As to the DSD's involvement - while we know very little about it, the two key things we know about it counter any argument if its relation - first, it is the "Water Dragon", which going by all other thematics, would mean that its corruption liquefies - the opposite of the Jade Wind; second, it woke in the deepest parts of the seas, and pushed krait, karka, and quaggan out of their homelands in the Unending Ocean - which isn't the Jade Sea or even close to the southern inland shores of the Jade Sea. So why would its magic be present near Shiro's death?

>

> As to whether gods could do such a thing - they turned a sea into a desert, so it seems likely that their magic could turn a sea and forest into stone.

>

> > Either way, I don't think it would be a retcon. The people of Cantha likely thought it was all Shiro and the magic he stole of Dwayna's, but if they didn't have any experience or knowledge of something like an Elder Dragon they likely wouldn't have reason to question it. Less of a "retcon" and more of an "evolution" of the story.

> That's... what a retcon technically is. Retroactive continuity.

>

> Changing previously established lore to fit a new narrative.

Yes, full-powered gods. But demi-god Balthazar? I would think Shiro borrowing Dwayna's magic would be a step below him.

I guess it's just strange to me that a human mortal could wield god magic in that way, yet I don't recall seeing any other similar events from others. I guess Khilibron reading the scroll could count?

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > At the example of Caithe, we can also see that Aurene is capable of corrupting Sylvari, so the Sylvari's protection might be gone.

> Aurene did not corrupt Caithe. In fact Caithe explicitly mentions Aurene did not corrupt her to clarify this to the player.

>

> Draconic corruption in this sense refers to the corrupted entity being under the mental thrall of the dragon. Caithe's transformation by Aurene is like the Frost Legion, Kudu's Monster, Subject Alpha, and Subject Beta, in that they have draconic energy/power in them, but are not under the mental thrall of said dragons, and thus, are not corrupted by them.

I don't know that it would necessarily be a "retcon" though, as much as an expansion on pre-existing knowledge/assumptions.

I've always thought that whole thing was suspicious, personally. One man steals a remnant of Dwayna's power, just a regular mortal, and manages to somehow scream and petrify a whole sea and forest?

Meanwhile, an ELDER DRAGON, has to fly above an area and breathe branded breath on a piece of land to make the same dent. It's always felt like there's more at play here, because Shiro really doesn't seem like he should be capable of that much devastation (even if he has some remnant of a God's power). And it seems rather odd in general that Dwayna's magic would have resulted in things petrifying. I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that it was Dwayna's magic amplified/twisted by the DSD. Because it just doesn't really make sense that a mere mortal would be able to do that, especially in comparison to some of the other comparable characters we've seen in game. Of the most powerful I'm only immediately able to think of Jenna and Xera - both were mesmers and merely created large illusions, not altering the very terrain.

Was Balthazar, even at demi-god status, even able to perform such a feat?

Either way, I don't think it would be a retcon. The people of Cantha likely thought it was all Shiro and the magic he stole of Dwayna's, but if they didn't have any experience or knowledge of something like an Elder Dragon they likely wouldn't have reason to question it. Less of a "retcon" and more of an "evolution" of the story.

Honestly, I'm wondering if this very thing could come into play in the upcoming fractal. Perhaps we will be witnessing the elemental uproar immediately following Shiro's death wail and may see some ambient clues that there's more at play. They did say the reasoning for the elemental uproar would be "surprising." It would be pretty surprising to find out that, (while the main story focuses on the aftermath of Shiro which we presume to be the cause) we actually find out there's something else causing it.

With Jormag going through the mists I'm not sure why she would stick to being up north, especially as it can create portals to summon minions pretty much wherever it wants.

Going based off of the teaser, we haven't seen the humans/centaur or the sinking ship as others have mentioned.

From that I would say we're either going far east into uncharted Charr territory and discovering a new band of humans and centaurs (isn't there some faction of Canthans that wound up leaving Cantha and could potentially be these humans that are being enslaved?), or we'll be going west of Drizzlewood closer to Bastion above Harathi.

I'm hoping it will be the string of islands near the Isle of Janthir Northwest of Divinity's Reach and we'll have a nice mix of centaur/Bastion demons/Tengu tribe.

But I'm definitely thinking the last episode will be set near Valajar Fells east of Drizzlewood and next to Eye of the North.

While the centaur have theoretically been wiped out from Elona, it would still be pretty neat to see an expanded map in Orr/Scavenger's Causeway at some point, but that's just wishful thinking.

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > @"Bast.7253" said:

> > > Lyssa just doesn't make any sense. I think people are reading too much into the purple mist. I get that she's been hinted at for quite awhile now, but I feel like they're setting that up for after this expansion. With the revised Utopia lore and this potentially revising the cycle, it may make room for the gods to reenter the picture as a whole. Lyssa potentially being the introductory character.

> > Definitely agree there, on every bit of it.

> >

> > I'm thinking the second character is going to be some other dragon scion. The dialogue definitely implies, to me, to be two not-yet-but-could-be-elder lesser dragons talking.

> >

> > I'm still not convinced that "non-dragons can take the place of Elder Dragons" though. The Pale Tree is possible, given it's a dragon champion. But Spirits of the Wild? I'm doubtful they could take the burden either singularly or collectively.

> >

> > > Maybe even something entirely new that we discover in Cantha, especially given all the weirdness that was going on in Echovald with the Wardens and whatever magic they were using.

> >

> > The wardens are tied to Urgoz who was a forest spirit, a nature spirit of the Echovald Forest - this puts Urgoz (and Zhu Hanuku, a sea spirit) in similar - if not the same - category as the Spirits of the Wild and Nulfastu.

> >

> > > @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > > I doubt the gods as a whole are going to renter the picture. Balthazar is dead, and we have direct confirmation that Kormir, Grenth, and Melandru, have left, and have abandoned their followers and realms, with zero suggestion there is anything else at play for them. That just leaves Lyssa and Dwayna, and we know Lyssa is up to something.

> > ANet did specifically state that the gods' plot isn't over in GW2 - specifically gods, plural - and this was after Path of Fire.

> >

> > Keep in mind, that the gods left because of the Elder Dragons. No more Elder Dragon threat, no more reason for the gods to go looking for a world without Elder Dragons to - supposedly - bring Tyrians to.

> >

> > Also, we got direct confirmation that Kormir was the _last_ god to leave Tyria. So Lyssa and Dwayna left a long time ago.

> >

> > And we do not _know_ Lyssa is up to something. People _suspect_ Lyssa is.

> >

> > > All the other major and minor plot points have really been done at this point.

> > > * The human/centaur was is over, with a decisive win for humanity.

> > Technically speaking, the Icebrood Saga trailer shows that the human/centaur war is **not** over. They lost their leader, but Season 3 showed that Harathi and Modniir were still warring, and the trailer shows the centaurs are still enslaving.

> >

> > > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > > Before jumping to too many conclusions regarding Lyssa, it is worth noting that in Kormir's journal, she mentions that Lyssa was mocking Kormir for staying behind. Which implies that, whatever Lyssa's past thoughts might have been in Arah, she's now in favour of leaving. (Keeping in mind that it was also Lyssa that was the spokesperson for the "this world is yours now" speech near the end of Nightfall). It's possible that events since the gods were in Arah (particularly the destruction that happened during the war with Abaddon) has caused her to shift perspective.

> > >

> > > That said, it's also possible, particularly given that it's _Lyssa,_ that her mockery of Kormir was intended to disguise her actual feelings on the matter, and possibly to get Kormir out of the way so she could proceed with her own plans. Still, it is worth noting that there are inconsistencies with the narrative that Lyssa still holds the views she did over a thousand years ago.

> >

> > Then there's also the matter that everything that makes us doubt Lyssa ultimately comes from a) Balthazar robbing reliquaries and b) Kormir. And A is the opposite of incriminating despite common argument otherwise in this community.

>

> Well according to Kormir in PoF, the gods can be fooled by Lyssa’s illusions, so its entirely possible that she stayed behind in hiding in a human form in Cantha which given the scriptures was a common tactic that Lyssa used. Perhaps Lyssa also wanted to deal with the dragons like Balthazar, however had different methods of doing such.

>

> Lyssa is also an enigma too because of duality, where she could have many contradictions as well as illusions on her side. Given how Anet “bread crumbed” Balthazar with very subtle hints, this purple mist could be what they are doing for Lyssa.

Maybe, but I feel like the breadcrumb of a vague buff on an npc's bar is a little different than littering an entire teaser with purple. :lol:

I guess the charred marks of the white mantle at the bloodstone's pedestal could count too.

But yeah, there are other things in the teaser that could hint to Lyssa, like the illuion-looking humanoids running (but I think that's just a neat art technique) and the general duality of the logo looking like a dragon and a reflection of the dragon (though more likely two different dragons on opposing sides.)

I just think it's unlikely unless she's a character that is going to either introduce us to Cantha somehow or be introduced slowly as a character leading into the next season while we're in Cantha. In either case I'm not sure the purple mist would really be appropriate as whatever it is tends to be pretty front and center.

I'm also leaning more towards this being a vision that we witness through Aurene at the scrying pool, given the introduction being these glimmering multi-colored lights on the sides as we fly through the city. Reminds me of Aurene doing her light speed flight like she did in Grothmar during the opening ceremony before branding the devourer.

If that's the case, it could be the long distant past, or the past soon after the defeat of Shiro after they were "building their new lives." Personally I don't think the building new lives part is in reference to the Jade Wind or the Affliction because neither were really sentient things that "sought" to destroy them, so much as after effects of someone else that was manipulated.

But anyway, who knows. There's certainly no shortage of possibilities.

I'd like for it to be something crazy modern and futuristic. But in all likelihood it will be the same.

With all of the assets they already have in game like the cliffs and the numerous zephyrite towns they may opt to reuse those as much as possible, especially given how large the city was to begin with.

That is to say that something doesn't happen and a large portion of Kaening isn't destroyed by the time we get there, aka DSD attack or something else. I'm setting my expectations low in anycase and Kaening wasn't really my main reason for wanting to revisit this area.

I am interested in finding out what the Luxon territories look like now, assuming that portions of the jade sea have returned to normal. I'd imagine the Kurzicks will be fine as the trees unpetrifying wouldn't cause them to have to rebuild.

I'm honestly imagining a large luxon city on the water made on the backs of numerous turtles, the Kurzicks to still be chilling out in their nice verdant cathedrals, and Kaening to be pretty much the same with large imperial buildings and more run down shanty sections.

> @"Dante.1508" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Dante.1508" said:

> > > I'm pretty sure Kuunavang is the mother and this dragon is new, like Aurene.. Bubbles is probably the antagonist in this DLC.

> > It's the voice that talks _to_ Kuunavang that seems deeper and older.

> >

> I believe people are mistaking the dragon we see in the trailer as Kuunavang which actually i believe is the older deeper voice, the dragon we see might be her child.

> > @"hanabal lecter.2495" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"Dante.1508" said:

> > > > I'm pretty sure Kuunavang is the mother and this dragon is new, like Aurene.. Bubbles is probably the antagonist in this DLC.

> > > It's the voice that talks _to_ Kuunavang that seems deeper and older.

> > >

> >

> > It can be the other celestial beings like the turtle, Phoenix etc...

>

> Could be as well.

I agree that people are making the assumption that it's Kunavang. It could be Shiny, Albax, or some other character all together. "They need me" zooming in on the dragon we see's eyes opening could be interpreted multiple ways. Either a "Call to Arms" opens their eyes and the camera zooms in response to that phrase, or the dragon opening their eyes is the one saying that. Idk.

Given the timing, if you watch closely, it seems more like the latter imo.

I feel like getting Echovald is kind of a necessity. This teaser may not even be what Cantha looks like today. It could be a conversation set in the past and isn't even rendered in game.

If they didn't include Echovald, what zones would they release? I'm imagining Kaening to be its own zone, then the island that we'll see bits of during the upcoming fractal, then the Jade Sea and surrounding areas. Going further south would involve going through the forest. They could potentially have some outer islands that we explore setting us up for entering more of the mainland Cantha in the next living story season, but then why show the Jade Sea?

I don't think you can really read into this teaser but I feel like we may know a lot more after the upcoming fractal release.

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"Bast.7253" said:

> > You seem to be pretty stuck on this idea of Lyssa. So what's her reasoning? Why now? Why in Cantha? What would her plan have to do with Kunavang? I mean, I do like the idea of her being involved in a potentially water themed expansion given water is one of her inherited domains, but if we take the lines of dialogue that the other voice says: (Despite the voice sounding male to me and several others)

> I don't care either way. All I have done is point out why most of these arguments that it isn't her don't really add up. I've made it clear it could be anyone since the get go.

>

> To answer your questions

> 1. Whats her reasoning? Lyssa has been stated since vanilla to be the one closest to mortals. While all the other gods were off building their great holy city of Arah, it was Lyssa who walked among the people and used her powers to help them forget whatever troubled past they had before arriving on Tyria. And when construction Arah was done, the other gods had to force her to leave the mortals behind to go live there. During Path of Fire, Kormir states that "even Lyssa" was(supposedly) in favor of leaving Tyria to emphasize that, even the one who cared the most, was(supposedly) OK with leaving. Her reasoning would simply be she has always cared about mortals more then the other gods did. Something that, if it is her in the trailer, is reflected in her dialog.

> 2. Why now? Well, it isn't just now. Its been noted that Balthazar didn't curse Lyssa like he did the other gods at the end of Path of Fire. Lyssa was likely helping him even back then, and was probably the one who told Balthazar about the mirror in her reliquary that Balthazar used to masquerade as Lazarus. She's been involved since LWS3, which was several years ago now. She was just in the background.

> 3. Why Cantha? Because even back in Guild Wars 1 it was noted that Cantha had, by far, the most developed nation, and the most powerful army of any human nation. Its also the last remaining major bastion of humanity that the game hasn't covered. If you want an army, Cantha can provide the largest one.

> 4. What would her plan have to do with Kuunavang. Well Kuuavang is an incredibly ancient and powerful dragon creature similar to Glint, and likely has information about the Elder Dragons like Glint did. If Kuunavang has said information, or if shes a viable Elder Dragon replacement, she would be a great ally in fighting the Dragons, for all the same reasons Glint and Aurene were.

>

> >What ending would Lyssa be referring to?

> Read that whole section of dialog again. Her dialog is "Those who face eternity easily forget... What a lifetime means. What an ending means." The "ending" she is referring to is that of life. The voice is saying that ancient entities like the gods, and dragons, who can live forever, forget what the meaning of living and dying is.

1. Humanity, sure, but ALL mortals? I suppose there were some non-human races in Arah.

2. Why act directly now though? And again, why aid Balthazar in his journey to aid Kralk knowing that it could have resulted in the end of Tyria? So much for the mortal races... Unless there's some larger plan involved and she's having to step in now for some reason. But do you really think they're going to be able to cover that elaborate of a plot in what.. 10 hours of episodes and a few story instances?

3. We also have no idea what's happened to Cantha since isolation. They had the largest army at the time, but we have no idea what's happened since then. Even still, why wouldn't have Balthazar pursued gaining his army the same way? If he just wanted an army, why use the exalted to create the forged? The only reason I can think of would be if they had immunity to Kralk's corruption. Seems like he could have used quite a few of his human followers to further his agenda though, and despite that he still chose to hid his true identity. Why though? It's not like the humans would have been exiled from the pantheon because the other gods weren't around to say otherwise.

4. Sure, Lyssa gets insight from Kunavang on how to combat the elder dragons. But again, the gods left because of the havoc they were afraid of causing from going to battle with them. Surely, at this point, she would know that killing one would cause mass destruction/completely destroy what's left to the balance of Tyria. So if she is seeking to do this, it's certainly not out of good will or concern for the mortal races. And it's really not all that different from the exact same course Balthazar took.

After watching WP's latest video he mentioned someone else's comment about the dialogue, specifically "they."

Implying that "they" could be referencing the elder dragons, or even some other immortal entity. "They need me" could be indicating that whoever is speaking needs to correct/alter that immortality, to give them meaning. So, to the possibility that this is Lyssa, it could be understandable because she either 1. Wants to be the end of dragons and their immortality, correct their mindset and stop the cycle of destruction by forcing them to empathize with the mortal races. 2. She's not talking about the dragons and is instead talking about the gods. Perhaps she's upset with the others for leaving, or feels betrayed by them similarly to Balthazar. She feels they've been neglectful of humanity and wants to force them to empathize.

On those notes, I'd imagine it would have to be number 1, because it's not really a conversation Kunavang would have any insight into or even care.

If it's not Lyssa, "Mother" and DSD don't really seem like great fits. I suppose it could be something else entirely upset with the cycle of dragons and their immortality, but again, how does having this conversation fit with Kunavang?

It seems too soon to rule out anybody, it just feels like Lyssa would be a bit more of a stretch. I do like the idea that she could be involved though and the logo and aesthetics of the trailer, in retrospect, do feel like visual cues outside of the "purple mist" everywhere. I.e., the general color scheme, the humans running in the video look similar to mesmer illusions that just sort of shatter and disentegrate, the duality of the logo and (despite being dragons) look like it could be a reflection of the same dragon, and the general predictable water theme.

> @"JekthAvid.1408" said:

> Mostly I'm worried about aurene if it's really the "End Of Dragons." Either dragons will be ded, or metaphorically dead. Maybe THIS age of dragons will be over and they'll all return to sleep. Maybe some whack magics will happen and they'll all turn to floating consciousness or humanoids or something. Maybe someone will kill Jormag and that will be the final straw for magic. Chaos ensues with your abilities not working as they should. (During story events only, obvi) A necromancer trying to summon a flesh golem will call down a burst of flame. A revenant calling upon the echoes of Mallyx will create a clone of himself. A warrior.... umm... I think you get it. There are a lot of ways this could go, and I'm curious to see exactly where. =D

I'm also worried in relation to this current season.

For some reason I thought about glass and the effects of extreme heat and extreme gold have on it. With her getting involved with Primordus and Jormag, who happen to be each others weaknesses and seemingly conflicting natural forces, I wondered what that could mean if Aurene attempted to either get in between the both of them in a fight, or potentially absorb their domains.

Though, I suppose if she absorbed Mordremoth and Zhaitan, (though they were never specifically stated to be each others weaknesses and aren't strictly domains of life and death), this may be less of an issue.

Perhaps "End of Dragons" is just referring to the end of the way the elder dragon cycle currently acts. Periods of destruction of civilizations. Or perhaps it's referring to the end of dragons being the only vessels for the all and their domains. Perhaps we start diving into lore that allows other entities to take their place, i.e. The Pale Mother, norn spirits, etc and Aurene is just a temporary vessel to hold all of this and will be the one that decides who gets what.

The only odd thing about this theory is, we have a potential replacement for Mordremoth, she could still wind up being the replacement for Kralk, the spirits could be the placement for Jormag, we still have DSD - which could be the celestials or one of the Saltspreys, but we still have Zhaitan and Primordus.

I feel like it's implying something more substantial than them just going to sleep though.

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"Bast.7253" said:

> > You're right, the voice doesn't specifically mention the cycle of the elder dragons. Kunavang is insisting that mortal's lives don't have to be brilliant, hot, and then gone. The other voice implies that they do. That that mortality is necessary to make life meaningful.

> Neither Kuunavang or the Voice say this either. Kuunavang's line of "it doesn't have to be this way" has no direct connection to any specific thing. For all we know from the trailer Kuunavang is saying to Lyssa she doesn't have to do whatever she is doing(just an example)

>

> >Going from Path of Fire, where our main focus is on Balthazar, straight to Lyssa, seems equally unlikely.

> Well we wouldn't be going straight to Lyssa, we have had all of LWS4, and Icebrood Saga, which had jack all to do with the gods, in between.

>

> >They revised a bunch of Utopian lore in the art book and they've been pretty heavily dealing with the mists for the past two living story seasons. Plenty of opportunity for the gods to show up and for them to tie in Lyssa later on.

> I think this is wishing too much for Utopia to come back as a thing when I don't see it happening.

>

> > @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> > Whilst I also don't think the Gods are going to be involved in this expansion, this is still not accurate. ArenaNet have said we still haven't seen the last of the Gods, and there absolutely is a suggestion as to what they are doing - Looking for a new world.

> Please read the thread before responding next time, hell, read the quoted post before you respond next time. Nothing you said relates to what I said.

>

> Obviously the god story isn't done if Lyssa comes back. I said the gods wouldn't be returning as a whole, as in all of them. Also the book that claims they are looking for a new world was written by a crazed fanatic. If the gods were actually doing this one would think they would have told people instead of just leaving Tyria, their realms, and everyone who follows them, without saying a word.

>

> > @"Psientist.6437" said:

> > I think you are misinterpreting Kuunavang, she is defending mortality. The line about brilliant, hot and gone is a standard way to describe mortals favorably in fantasy.

> That line was said by the other voice, not Kuunavang though.

You seem to be pretty stuck on this idea of Lyssa. So what's her reasoning? Why now? Why in Cantha? What would her plan have to do with Kunavang? I mean, I do like the idea of her being involved in a potentially water themed expansion given water is one of her inherited domains, but if we take the lines of dialogue that the other voice says: (Despite the voice sounding male to me and several others)

Transcript:

(Kunavang):

This land...

It's a monument to mortal resillience.

They built new lives upon the very thing..

That sought to end theirs.

(Mysterious Voice):

Mortals are little flames.

Brilliant, hot, then gone.

Those who face eternity easily forget...

What a lifetime means.

What an ending means.

(Kunavang)

You know it doesn't have to be this way.

(Mysterious voice)

No, Kunavang, it does.

They need me.

1. The mysterious voice is talking about "mortals", not just "humans" but presumably all mortal races.

2. The voice is talking about eternity, but also an "ending."

What ending would Lyssa be referring to?

My interpretation, mortals is referring to all the mortal races. The cycle of the elder dragons seems most plausible as ending, to me, would imply the ending of civilizations.

Reading this, it seems pretty obvious that the mysterious voice is advocating against immortality, implying either:

"They need me to fulfill the role that I do, to remind them of their mortality and give their lives meaning."

"They need me to prevent you from allowing them immortality."

The latter seems a bit off after rewatching.

So what would her goal be? What do you think her plan could be, if it were Lyssa?

Balthazar was pretty straight forward, he felt betrayed and he wanted power. But what's Lyssa's objective here? Assuming she gifted the mirror and he didn't just snipe it from her reliquary, why would she knowingly give Balthazar her mirror and help him on his mission just to involve herself after his defeat? And then, ignoring the part about "ending" presumably show somekind of compassion for mortals even if it's talking about giving their life meaning by reminding them of their mortality?

I'm just not getting the logic behind assuming that this is Lyssa, from a story perspective, or why Kunavang would have any interest/say in their plan. I mean, Lyssa is presumably still a full-powered god, so why would she even be debating with a lesser dragon or explaining her reasoning?

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"Bast.7253" said:

> > I think the main reason why it seems HIGHLY unlikely to be Lyssa is that she doesn't really have anything to do with Kunavang. Why would she be talking about the cycle of the elder dragons or advocating for it to Kunavang when she may very well have given Balthazar her mirror in his pursuit to kill Kralk?

> Kuunavang is an incredibly ancient dragon-entity whose history stretches back into the unknown past. She is essentially the Canthan version of Glint. And much like how Glint talked to the human gods, I find it almost certain the human gods talked to Kuunavang as well. Asking what does Lyssa, or any of the gods for that matter, have to do with Kuunavang is like asking what do they have to do with Glint. They would have obviously known each other. Especially when we consider that, outside of some early transfers they brought to Orr, the human gods brought most of humanity to Cantha first. They probably had some sort of deal going on so she wouldn't attack humanity.

>

> If Kuunavang is in any way connected to the Elder Dragons, either being related to Bubbles like Glint was to Kralk, or being a viable Elder Dragon replacement entity, Lyssa wold obviously go to her for assistance for much the same reason Balthazar went after Vlast and Aurene. If you are going to combat an Elder Dragon, having something related to said Dragon is helpful. Not to mention Kuunavang is just really powerful on her own.

>

> Also, the voice doesn't advocate for the cycle of Elder Dragons in the trailer.

>

> >Lyssa just doesn't make any sense. I think people are reading too much into the purple mist. I get that she's been hinted at for quite awhile now, but I feel like they're setting that up for after this expansion. With the revised Utopia lore and this potentially revising the cycle, it may make room for the gods to reenter the picture as a whole. Lyssa potentially being the introductory character.

> I doubt the gods as a whole are going to renter the picture. Balthazar is dead, and we have direct confirmation that Kormir, Grenth, and Melandru, have left, and have abandoned their followers and realms, with zero suggestion there is anything else at play for them. That just leaves Lyssa and Dwayna, and we know Lyssa is up to something.

>

> As it stands, the Icebrood Saga is set to wrap up all the big Norn and Charr story beats, and with the Cantha expansion and LW content, that will cover the last major human kingdom on Tyria. The only thing left after Cantha is to deal with Primordus, which will probably deal with the Asura story beats, with some dwarven and skritt lore thrown in.

>

> All the other major and minor plot points have really been done at this point.

> * The human/centaur was is over, with a decisive win for humanity.

> * The White Mantle/bandit/sepratist storylines are wrapped up, with the Mantle being crushed, and Lazarus dead.

> * The Flame Legion plot is over, now that Efhram has brought the Flame Legion back into the greater Charr society.

> * The Charr civil war/Renegade plot is done now that Bangar has been defeated. all thats left is to do something about how the Charr leadership will go moving forward

> * Icebrood Saga is dealing with all the Asgeir/missing spirits/Svanir/tooth prophecy stuff for the Norn

> * The Sylvari had their big story with Heart of Thorns

> * Path of Fire and its LW content dealt with Elona, Joko, the Sunspears, and all that

>

> If they are going to do something with Lyssa its either the expansion, or the connected Canthan LW season. There just not anywhere else for it to fit in, since there's really not much left to do in the first place besides Cantha and the Primrodus/Asura stuff.

You're right, the voice doesn't specifically mention the cycle of the elder dragons. Kunavang is insisting that mortal's lives don't have to be brilliant, hot, and then gone. The other voice implies that they do. That that mortality is necessary to make life meaningful.

They could:

1. Be opposing Kunavang who is actually the "enemy" here in the sense that they want to brand humanity in an effort to make them immortal.

2. Be implying the necessity of the elder dragons and their destructive role, because it keeps them seeing the value of life.

3. Something else entirely, and it's a different kind of immortal being. But of all the "immortal" beings we have in Cantha, Lyssa seems the least likely.

Going from Path of Fire, where our main focus is on Balthazar, straight to Lyssa, seems equally unlikely.

Also, the name of the expansion is End of Dragons and talking about the rebirth of the cycle, so it's logical to assume that what they're actually talking about in the trailer is the cycle of the elder dragons.

And there's plenty to do with Lyssa outside of the expansion. I agree that it could come in the form of the living story afterwards, leading up to another expansion (if there is another expansion). They revised a bunch of Utopian lore in the art book and they've been pretty heavily dealing with the mists for the past two living story seasons. Plenty of opportunity for the gods to show up and for them to tie in Lyssa later on.

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"Psientist.6437" said:

> > I think we can believe the narrative lead when they say the Mysterious Voice belongs to a new character. It isn't Lyssa.

> Anet has used the term "new character" to refer to characters we had already heard about, but had never seen. And we have never seen Lyssa. By your argument it couldn't be Kralk's mother either because she isn't a new character, as she was mentioned back in LWS4.

>

> Not saying its either, but the phrase "new character" doesn't disqualify either of them.

I think the main reason why it seems HIGHLY unlikely to be Lyssa is that she doesn't really have anything to do with Kunavang. Why would she be talking about the cycle of the elder dragons or advocating for it to Kunavang when she may very well have given Balthazar her mirror in his pursuit to kill Kralk?

Lyssa just doesn't make any sense. I think people are reading too much into the purple mist. I get that she's been hinted at for quite awhile now, but I feel like they're setting that up for after this expansion. With the revised Utopia lore and this potentially revising the cycle, it may make room for the gods to reenter the picture as a whole. Lyssa potentially being the introductory character.

As far as the "End of Dragons, The Cycle Reborn" bit, it may not even be eluding to the elder dragons or dragons at all. It may be hinting at other things being able to take the place that the Elder Dragons are currently taking. I.e., The Pale Tree, the spirits of the wild, Aurene and perhaps some other dragons. Maybe even something entirely new that we discover in Cantha, especially given all the weirdness that was going on in Echovald with the Wardens and whatever magic they were using.

Who knows, but Lyssa doesn't really make sense, especially in terms of this trailer.

The mother thing is a lot more plausible. Saying she isn't "new" because the idea of her existence was mentioned in one line of dialogue feels like an extreme grasping of straws. But no, we haven't seen either one. Unless the above poster was going with the theory that Jenna = Lyssa, (or one part of Lyssa) which could fit I suppose but I'm sure there are a dozen reasons why that doesn't fit and this post will be picked apart sentence by sentence explaining why at some point.