Israel.7056

> @"Acyk.9671" said:

> They can go melee because they chain WoD, otherwise they would pirate ship. If you have two opponents with same level, they will play mind games at range for so long that you get bored until one of the two can take advantage of a good bubble on top of enemy even if nerfs have made meta more melee than it used to be on PoF release.

Meh I dunno. Personally I think Kek is pretty much the only guild doing the range game well enough to actually worry about pushing without WoD ready.

On the other hand WoD is just so strong it's like it spoils everyone because it makes everything so much easier.

> @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said:

> We now have to predict what a zerg is going to do because it's now 2.5 seconds until it's even effective, allot can happen in those 2.5 seconds.

You just need to call it out now it's just like everything else. If you wait for the call out and then count it down it will help everyone else to know when and where to drop their ccs and damage and if the enemy moves you cancel it.

> @"Miko.4158" said:

> its quite clear you dont play sb.

> first its your server , now its the guild and l2p.

> this about why the nerf is over the top.

> whose next santa?

You are clearly very biased because you main SB and it doesn't seem to me like you can look at this issue with anything approaching objectivity.

I don't main it but I've played it a fair bit and imo WoD was broken af pre nerfs and I think it's still incredibly powerful even after all the nerfs. The skill has just been so impactful since PoF release that it was actually worth the risk to just run in ahead of everyone else and get the skill off no matter what even if it meant dying. That's how broken WoD was. There is no other skill in this game that's so powerful that it's actually worth yoloing into people in a zerg fight just to use that one skill before dying or running away with no CDs left and there is no other class in the game that can actually have a chance of surviving while playing that way.

You may actually have to learn how to coordinate your skill usage and positioning with your guild now but I promise you that both are entirely doable and that bubble bombs still work great when executed properly, they just take a bit more teamwork now because the window for their effective use is smaller than it used to be.

> @"Miko.4158" said:

> same is true for everything if you co-ordinate veil.

> or portal.

> or jump down.

> however any of these with bubble is wrong, the cast time means its not on impact.

> most of the time its not even on the zerg which has moved round.

>

> you have to get in front. most of the bulid is stab/stab related

> you wouldn't do an individual sb veil, even if you did its to not going to last to make any sort of impact.

Those are guild l2p issues imo anything can go wrong where team coordination is involved. You should not have to blow a bunch of stances and/or overextend yourself to get a good bubbled bomb off with your guild even after the nerf.

> @"Miko.4158" said:

> veiling bubbles isn't exactly pro play its just strategy.

> also makes a noob a bubble bomber.

> its all in the timings and angles.

>

> there's alot of issues with veil and stealth.......

> separate issue.

Whether you consider it pro or not is irrelevant the point is that spellbreakers don't have to pop every defensive CD and charge into the enemy by themselves just to get a good winds off like so many have tried to claim in defense of WoD.

> @"LetoII.3782" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > The monkey push with stances thing isn't the pro approach but it can still work because stances are still kinda crazy. the pro approach is chain veil in drop bubbles right on their face so they're dead before they even know what's up.

>

> Top end gameplay discussion feels out of place here

> When we talk about Www application in average it's the allah-hu-ahkbar warrior running in to bubble and trading it's life to do so... And how weird it is that the warriors themselves would want this as their role. <,<

I think they're either being intellectually dishonest and acting like they don't know how the skill is actually used by the better organized groups or they're genuinely clueless about how this skill is being used because they don't play with or against a good organized group.

I mean there's a lot of people who are still currently complaining on these forums about "pirate shipping" when the only good NA guild I've played against that's full committed to range bombs and only range bombs and actually making it work is Kek and they still use bubble bombs with grav wells and pulls. Literally every other decent guild I've played against has been melee heavy chain veiling bubble bombers. Nothing has changed since the nerf either.

The monkey push with stances thing isn't the pro approach but it can still work because stances are still kinda crazy. the pro approach is chain veil in drop bubbles right on their face so they're dead before they even know what's up.

> @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> This is just a case of, "I WANT TO FACEROLL OBJECTIVES AND YOU SHOULD STOP STOPPING ME!!!". I don't see siege disablers used so frequently as to warrant this kind of a reaction. Most of the time I see them being used is as a way to stall out the taking of an objective to try to see if they can get more people to defend. After enough people show up it then becomes an all out war with the players instead. Which is funny because I thought that that was what more people wanted anyways. You always see people complaining when it comes to defending a tower they want the players to come out and fight instead.

>

> So now we are starting to see the real crux of the problem. It's not that people want more people to come out from a tower and fight, but that they want to take that tower before anybody can do anything to try to defend it by stalling so that more people CAN go out and fight. Change my mind.

What are you on about? He just said the cost to use them is too low not that they should be removed from the game.

Btw there are offensive ppt players too not everyone who ppts gets to have the luxury of sitting inside upgraded structures all day. There's no reason why ppt should favor defensive play over offensive play.

I'm not sure I understand how either suggestion would alleviate the problem of coverage.

> @"Lahmia.2193" said:

> > @"Miko.4158" said:

> > well if they do play , they will notice there arent any sb's left so goodness knows how they will evaluate the changes.

>

>

> Well that's just a straight up lie. Spellbreakers are still in use and well placed bubbles are still keystone to winning fights.

Yup still running into guilds running 5+ spellbreakers not much has changed from what I can see.

Maybe just increase the supply cost to 25 and put a limit on how often one piece of siege can be disabled.

Or put it back to 10 seconds duration and get rid of the projectile hate and the boon denial and just make it a big aoe boon strip.

I think we could use a few more no downed state event weeks, perhaps one every month or two, so that people could get a better feel for it and then we can see where people stand on it.

> @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said:

> And why does WoD need nerfed first?

I think it was the most broken single skill in the game. I think boon denial is still broken but the decreased duration does make the skill a lot less oppressive so I'll take it.

>The most OP things should be nerfed first, then you know where you stand.

I think WoD was the single most OP thing in the game since PoF launched. Scourge and FB are not OP because of any one skill it's a combination of things and the synergy they have with one another that makes them OP.

>As for organized zergs I'll usually see around 2-3 in a group of 25 with a FB in each sub party and scourges making up the bulk of the zerg.

The meta comp was Guard, Rev, Scourge, Spellbreaker, whatever. People might start dropping Spellbreakers in favor of something else now I think it depends on what they're trying to do, my guild is still running them though.

>I'm not sure who you're running with if you're seeing 5+ in a squad of 20+, most commanders I've been seeing have been asking for more FB's and Scourges.

Even before the nerf?

>As for the last part simple logic tells me that having no boons is safer than having them turned against me and into conditions which adds more damage hitting me

Well the logic here is sound but I believe your assumptions are incorrect. Incorrect Assumption 1 is that scourges are running condi which hasn't been true since the dhuumfire nerf. Meta scourge is power now. Incorrect Assumption 2 is that converted condis can't either be cleared or resisted faster than they can be applied outside of a bubble, they easily can. Incorrect Assumption 3 is that boons cannot be reapplied faster than they can be stripped or corrupted outside of a bubble, which they can be.

>and if you're arguing that you need stability to get out of issues a simple stun break usually does the trick (even ones without stability).

Single stun breaks by themselves were usually insufficient to survive a good bubble bomb in my experience. Usually it would take me multiple stun breaks and condi clears, at least one dodge sometimes two and possibly a mobile evade like Surge of the Mists to get out of even one good bubbled bomb.

> @"LaGranse.8652" said:

> Because the whole point about keeps and castles were that a smaller force of defenders could face off against a larger force without being instantly trampled, thus the defenders had a more favorable position. Historically when wars were though the offensive army had numbers much larger then the defenders, and the defenders would not beat them, however they did delay the attackers quite a bit which is just what the siege disabler does.

Ok but this is a video game and a very unrealistic one in general to boot.

Take siege blueprints and supply for instance. Total video game mechanic contrivance. Siege weapons weren't constructed on the spot on top of little blueprint squares in seconds with wood and nails being carried around by soldiers in full plate armor. Siege equipment took lots of time and resources to make and they were being built by carpenters and blacksmiths not just soldiers.

Arrow carts in this game have an unlimited amount of arrows, ballistas and catapults and trebuchets reload themselves in seconds and never run out of ammo either. All of this stuff is totally unrealistic.

Also there's magic. Tons of magic.

So why should anyone care about anything in this game being "historically accurate" when the game is complete high fantasy and video game contrivance in pretty much every other way?

> @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said:

> If what scourge and firebrand have are a little too good it can be nerfed...if it can be built it can be nerfed, and at this point they should be nerfed..

I don't disagree I think they need to be nerfed but I think WoD needed to get nerfed first.

>You just have to take 1 look at a zerg to see what the OP classes are and what commanders are usually asking for.

Well I don't know who you play with or who you have been following since PoF release but in my experience spellbreakers have been in very high demand in both the guild raids and the public squads I've been a part of since PoF release. I've personally run into many organized groups since PoF release running 5+ spellbreakers in squads of 20+ and some running as many as 15 out of 20. I don't think it would be an exaggeration to say that 90 percent of the fights I've been in since PoF release (thousands no doubt) have been decided by bubble usage either offensively or defensively.

>While WoD "can be chained or carpet bombed" over an area you don't see that, you see Scourges carpet bombing and chaining their AoE's.

Again I don't know what guild you play with or what server you play on etc but I have been seeing just those sorts of WoD tactics used by every organized guild and indeed most of the public tag zergs I've faced on both EU and NA since PoF release so I don't know what to tell you.

>As I've said before I'd rather go without my boons than to be punished for them which is what scourge does while SB just stops the boons, it actually probably helps you because it's not getting corrupted into a condition and killing you that way.

Ofcourse you're entitled to have your preferences as are we all but I happen to think you're horribly misguided on this one.

> @"LaGranse.8652" said:

> It is a siege, the defenders are suposed to have an advantage

Why?

> @"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > Tend to agree. Probably should have an icd.

>

> Did something change? Because they already have/had a ICD.

>

I phrased that poorly. I meant to say there should be an icd on how often siege can be disabled. Like once per minute per piece of siege or something like that.

> @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said:

> It's not OP it's 4 seconds of no boons (except those that you already have, and you'll only lose 4 of them through those 4 seconds IF you stay in the bubble). And they've now pretty much made SB pretty useless and meh compared to those other 2 professions, the other 2 should have been fixed WELL before they even looked at our 1 skill. WoD isn't the problem it's 1 AoE that used to last 10 seconds in a world of AoE spam that is a heck of allot more than WoD. As I've said SB isn't boon hate it's boon dislike the boon denial far better than being punished like a scourge can do for boons. You can make a scourge that literally corrupts boons into conditions with pretty much every skill it does while making itself stronger and stealing your boons that my friend is boon hate. It also plays very well off it's core traits for the boon hatred that they have.

4 seconds now was 10. Can be chained by multiple spellbreakers one after another completely shutting down one particular area. Can alternatively be carpet bombed over a large area to force people to completely evacuate the zone or risk getting completely demolished by AoEs. By comparison Scourge's Breach is 5s and I think it's still considered to be one of the stronger elites in the game because it can be stacked or chained in the same way as WoD and synergizes extremely well with WoD. WoD was and still is insanely strong in organized play because even 4s without support against a good group can mean death. Again the boon strip isn't the issue, if that's all it did I would say keep it at 10s, boon strip is annoying but it's pretty easy to deal with in an organized group, the boon denial stuff is the real threat and it has no counterplay except to gtfo the bubble because it's a "player state" which cannot be cleansed.

As I said before Scourge and Firebrand are harder to fix because it's like everything they've got is a little too good for group play and all their stuff scales really well into medium and large scale fights whereas Spellbreaker is good for small scale and mostly terrible for medium to large scale except for the Elite which is insanely strong at all scales of play.

Tend to agree. Probably should have an icd.

> @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said:

> > > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > > > @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said:

> > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > > > > > @"Miko.4158" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Miko.4158" said:

> > > > > > > > > the area denial stuff is nonsense aswell, people engage with bubbles, it helps cancel out pirate shipping.

> > > > > > > > > its available to everyone so there is no 'advantage' simply scourages crying 'foul' presuambly on reddit. what a joke.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The old winds was a textbook example of area denial; total no man's land wherever a bubble was up, top priority was to gtfo the bubble asap or risk getting ccd where supports couldn't help much.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > It still serves as solid area denial it just doesn't last as long and there's now a 1s grace period to gtfo.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > a million red rings is area denial.

> > > > > > > because its not balanced in the game, multi tagging loot from afar no-risk strategy.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hyperbolic but yes ranged ground targeted sustained aoes are also a form of area denial and they are what makes scourge so good for wvw. So what?

> > > > >

> > > > > Don't even get me started on whats wrong with Scourge if you're wanting to talk AOE denial, when the enemy zerg can walk freely on a carpet of their own AOE rings and you can't get anywhere near them before they shift those AOE's all on top of you and you just insta-melt. Plus the scourge does actual boon hate because it converts boons into conditions (you know...more damage) while their skills still do additional damage, meanwhile warrior's is more of a boon dislike and just strips boons for next to no damage.

> > > > >

> > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > > > > > @"Miko.4158" said:

> > > > > > > so how many scourges are there to sb's.

> > > > > > > assuming wvwers choose the strongest strategy, and scourge is over represented

> > > > > > > which needs balance.

> > > > > > > if bubble counters scourge as it allows melee.....

> > > > > > > come on people.

> > > > > > > its not rocket science.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > False dilemma.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Also WoD doesn't counter scourge it counters boons and boon reliant specs like firebrand.

> > > > >

> > > > > Another overly represented class in WvW.

> > > >

> > > > I think scourge area denial is a harder thing to change satisfactorily because the entire spec is designed around area denial. Firebrand has a similar problem; the entire spec is designed to be the best support in pretty much every way. Can't change just one thing. The funny thing about spellbreaker is that all of its role as the ultimate boon hate spec is concentrated in one skill so it's easier to work on from a design standpoint.

> > > >

> > > > As I've said before the boon strip by itself isn't what makes WoD so strong, it's the boon denial. If WoD were just a big null field I don't think it would be an issue.

> > >

> > > Lol SB is ultimate boon hate spec? As I said it's just boon dislike, Scourge is ultimate boon hate because most of it's boon strips don't strip boons it converts them to conditions so it actually punishes you for your boons and sometimes gives the boons to themselves, SB just says I'd rather you not have those boons. Scourge gets to do most of that from range, while warrior has to be on top of you to do any of it. Also one of Warrior's larger areas for boon dislike are now from hard CC's which if the enemy has stability lol nothing happens you just removed a stack of stability, Scourge doesn't care about stability for it's boon hate. If that doesn't say that Scourge is ultimate boon hate idk what does. Also I'd much much rather fight in an enemy SB bubble for 1 minute than fight in Scourge AoE for 20 seconds.

> >

> > Yeah I'd say spellbreakers unique mechanic is the ultimate form of boon hate.

> >

> > I'll take fighting inside scourge aoe over fighting inside a bubble any day.

>

> Which mechanic are you talking about is the ultimate form of boon hate? If you're talking about WoD's disenchantment debuff it's now only 4 seconds, on a 90 second CD, with a 2.5 second warning...such an "ultimate form of boon hate." I would much rather not have any boons than have my boons converted into conditions. While the scourges get to maintain their boon hate through a fight a warrior doesn't have anything they can maintain for boon dislike as much as a Scourge.

Yeah the boon denial debuff. My point was that that debuff is the ultimate form of boon hate but spellbreakers only got it on their elite while pretty much everything else about spellbreaker is meh. Whereas everything problematic about firebrands and scourges is spread out amongst their class mechanic utilities elites and traits which is what makes them hard to tone down properly compared to spellbreakers.

I think that if someone stealths in combat they should not immediately go invisible and drop target but instead fade from view over a second or two and stay targetable during that time so that stealth could not be used as a spammable detarget.

> @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said:

> > > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > > > @"Miko.4158" said:

> > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > > > > > @"Miko.4158" said:

> > > > > > > the area denial stuff is nonsense aswell, people engage with bubbles, it helps cancel out pirate shipping.

> > > > > > > its available to everyone so there is no 'advantage' simply scourages crying 'foul' presuambly on reddit. what a joke.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The old winds was a textbook example of area denial; total no man's land wherever a bubble was up, top priority was to gtfo the bubble asap or risk getting ccd where supports couldn't help much.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It still serves as solid area denial it just doesn't last as long and there's now a 1s grace period to gtfo.

> > > > >

> > > > > a million red rings is area denial.

> > > > > because its not balanced in the game, multi tagging loot from afar no-risk strategy.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Hyperbolic but yes ranged ground targeted sustained aoes are also a form of area denial and they are what makes scourge so good for wvw. So what?

> > >

> > > Don't even get me started on whats wrong with Scourge if you're wanting to talk AOE denial, when the enemy zerg can walk freely on a carpet of their own AOE rings and you can't get anywhere near them before they shift those AOE's all on top of you and you just insta-melt. Plus the scourge does actual boon hate because it converts boons into conditions (you know...more damage) while their skills still do additional damage, meanwhile warrior's is more of a boon dislike and just strips boons for next to no damage.

> > >

> > > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > > > @"Miko.4158" said:

> > > > > so how many scourges are there to sb's.

> > > > > assuming wvwers choose the strongest strategy, and scourge is over represented

> > > > > which needs balance.

> > > > > if bubble counters scourge as it allows melee.....

> > > > > come on people.

> > > > > its not rocket science.

> > > >

> > > > False dilemma.

> > > >

> > > > Also WoD doesn't counter scourge it counters boons and boon reliant specs like firebrand.

> > >

> > > Another overly represented class in WvW.

> >

> > I think scourge area denial is a harder thing to change satisfactorily because the entire spec is designed around area denial. Firebrand has a similar problem; the entire spec is designed to be the best support in pretty much every way. Can't change just one thing. The funny thing about spellbreaker is that all of its role as the ultimate boon hate spec is concentrated in one skill so it's easier to work on from a design standpoint.

> >

> > As I've said before the boon strip by itself isn't what makes WoD so strong, it's the boon denial. If WoD were just a big null field I don't think it would be an issue.

>

> Lol SB is ultimate boon hate spec? As I said it's just boon dislike, Scourge is ultimate boon hate because most of it's boon strips don't strip boons it converts them to conditions so it actually punishes you for your boons and sometimes gives the boons to themselves, SB just says I'd rather you not have those boons. Scourge gets to do most of that from range, while warrior has to be on top of you to do any of it. Also one of Warrior's larger areas for boon dislike are now from hard CC's which if the enemy has stability lol nothing happens you just removed a stack of stability, Scourge doesn't care about stability for it's boon hate. If that doesn't say that Scourge is ultimate boon hate idk what does. Also I'd much much rather fight in an enemy SB bubble for 1 minute than fight in Scourge AoE for 20 seconds.

Yeah I'd say spellbreakers unique mechanic is the ultimate form of boon hate.

I'll take fighting inside scourge aoe over fighting inside a bubble any day.

> @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > @"Miko.4158" said:

> > > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > > > @"Miko.4158" said:

> > > > > the area denial stuff is nonsense aswell, people engage with bubbles, it helps cancel out pirate shipping.

> > > > > its available to everyone so there is no 'advantage' simply scourages crying 'foul' presuambly on reddit. what a joke.

> > > >

> > > > The old winds was a textbook example of area denial; total no man's land wherever a bubble was up, top priority was to gtfo the bubble asap or risk getting ccd where supports couldn't help much.

> > > >

> > > > It still serves as solid area denial it just doesn't last as long and there's now a 1s grace period to gtfo.

> > >

> > > a million red rings is area denial.

> > > because its not balanced in the game, multi tagging loot from afar no-risk strategy.

> > >

> >

> > Hyperbolic but yes ranged ground targeted sustained aoes are also a form of area denial and they are what makes scourge so good for wvw. So what?

>

> Don't even get me started on whats wrong with Scourge if you're wanting to talk AOE denial, when the enemy zerg can walk freely on a carpet of their own AOE rings and you can't get anywhere near them before they shift those AOE's all on top of you and you just insta-melt. Plus the scourge does actual boon hate because it converts boons into conditions (you know...more damage) while their skills still do additional damage, meanwhile warrior's is more of a boon dislike and just strips boons for next to no damage.

>

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > @"Miko.4158" said:

> > > so how many scourges are there to sb's.

> > > assuming wvwers choose the strongest strategy, and scourge is over represented

> > > which needs balance.

> > > if bubble counters scourge as it allows melee.....

> > > come on people.

> > > its not rocket science.

> >

> > False dilemma.

> >

> > Also WoD doesn't counter scourge it counters boons and boon reliant specs like firebrand.

>

> Another overly represented class in WvW.

I think scourge area denial is a harder thing to change satisfactorily because the entire spec is designed around area denial. Firebrand has a similar problem; the entire spec is designed to be the best support in pretty much every way. Can't change just one thing. The funny thing about spellbreaker is that all of its role as the ultimate boon hate spec is concentrated in one skill so it's easier to work on from a design standpoint.

As I've said before the boon strip by itself isn't what makes WoD so strong, it's the boon denial. If WoD were just a big null field I don't think it would be an issue.

> @"Miko.4158" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > @"Miko.4158" said:

> > > so how many scourges are there to sb's.

> > > assuming wvwers choose the strongest strategy, and scourge is over represented

> > > which needs balance.

> > > if bubble counters scourge as it allows melee.....

> > > come on people.

> > > its not rocket science.

> >

> > False dilemma.

> >

> > Also WoD doesn't counter scourge it counters boons and boon reliant specs like firebrand.

>

> scourge = pirate ship,

> wod = melee

> you've conveniently left out the projectile bit.

> bubble goes up melee/everyone charges pirateship.

> there are def bubbles etc , but the main is to get into the enemy zerg rather than stand off .

> if you bubble and they retreat open backs.

> if they charge stand off broken.

> if they stand still, all in.

> alot of scourge in wvw have an interst in keeping it pirate heavy and are vocal

> If you are on balance needs to be taken with a pinch of salt.

I understand how offensive bubbles work they don't counter scourges they counter the stab and resi cds of the enemy groups supports. The whole point of the offensive bubble is to prevent the support from being able to do their job long enough to kill them all in one big melee bomb. WoD doesn't counter scourges it counters firebrands. The projectile hate is irrelevant when talking about scourges as most of their damage isn't projectile based.