ThatOddOne.4387

The Gods do, however, know about the Elder Dragons and what they can do. But it is like you say that they might just be too far away to notice what's going on. If they're found then travelling to the disturbance shouldn't take long at all though.

Fleebag asked how big "the sea" was and I linked the article to the Crystal Desert for explanation, I thought that was obvious but maybe not to someone so keen to jump on a post and say what it needs to "become an argument". (Hint: It wasn't being used as an argument)

That is not a Deus ex Machina solution, especially when it's already been established as an element of the story.

Yes, it does tread old water, and in this case that's a good thing, because like I said it's using previously established story elements. The very basic of it being "Using Divine Magic against Dragons = Good idea". It also removes that little thing you got hung on about the Gods helping against Kralkatorrik "removing player agency" as if that's a bad thing. The player shouldn't be able to win every fight without help.

Unless the player is using the divine power of Balthazar. Temporarily.

That's the way I'd like to see this go. The player gets Balthazar's divine power in order to fight Kralkatorrik alongside the other Gods in the Mists, then at the end of the fight it can be removed and used to either ascend a new God of War or even returned to a Balthazar that is seeing sense again, if his old-man-imprisoned guise gets spat out of Kralkatorrik as it dies.

What do you mean "so what"?

"It was formed alongside the Desolation, also formerly a part of the Crystal Sea, when the Five Gods defeated Abaddon."

The Gods have also been fairly tame in terms of what we know of their power, given they can apparently raise continents and the mere unleashing of their power in battle turns seas to deserts.

> @"Tails.9372" said:

> Just because something is strong doesn't mean that it's malevolent (and/or cares about lesser beings living on a random "isle"), the "gods" themselves were just some beings wandering through the mists and who knows what else is out there. We don't even know if the Six are particularry strong for what they are, we've already seen some other beings who are at least comparable so I guess not.

Umh. I don't really get how you can take away that we don't know if the Gods are particularly strong when we very much do know how strong they are.

The magic of a single god escaping (Abaddon) is enough to destroy Tyria whilst it takes at least 3 Elder Dragon deaths to start to result in the same. The mere clash of Abaddon versus the other Gods caused a sea to turn into a desert from the fallout, something no Elder Dragon has managed.

It's really quite funny how people are so desperate to deny a foundation of the franchise some screentime before they go away for good (Because lets be honest there's no chance of them appearing again after this expansion so they need a proper send off) that they're willing to accept some random massively powerful Mists being just showing up to do the narrative job the Gods could do.

I mean, like Konig said there's bound to be massively powerful Mists beings out there, but *narratively* one or several of them showing up to fight Kralkatorrik is just nonsensical.

> @"Yilia.7509" said:

> > @"ugrakarma.9416" said:

> >

> > And this create the inevitable conclusion that the gods will return here to clean up the mess.

> >

> From what I know about lore, the gods went to another universe to let the humans settle there because they thought the humans could never thrive like they want them to with the elder dragons around. I might be wrong but this makes it not as likely that the gods would come back. They left the mists for some other universe, remember?

They're deeper in the Mists/on another world which will be connected to the Mists, not a different universe. It's not outside the realm of possibility they'll notice an Elder Dragon is now romping about where it shouldn't be.

It would frankly be nonsensical for them not to intervene. Though them not being aware if they're busy on an actual world shaping it or preparing it as a back-up plan or whatever would make sense, and in which case it would be like has been suggested: An episode or two where we go and FIND the Gods and tell them what's going on, which will spur their intervention in some manner, whether it's to contain the damage whilst we fight Kralkatorrik, empower us or combat him directly alongside us. Again, the major reason why they did not intervene with the Elder Dragons is because of the damage that will be done to Tyria if the Gods and Elder Dragons go ham on each other. With the battle taking place in the Mists, that removes the risk.

And no, all of the above is still not a deus ex machina especially if we spend the appropriate amount of time finding the Gods.

Like has been said, at this point, with Kralkatorrik as powerful as he is, with no possible combination of factors available to us enabling us to win, as seen via Aurene's visions, really the Gods are the only sensible answer to this story conumdrum, otherwise what would be the narrative point of making him so powerful in the first place if we can still just defeat him via something we come up with ourselves?

> @"Genesis.8572" said:

> > That's one way to use it, but more broadly the term references that everything introduced in a story needs to have a purpose.

> Which would make your use of Chekhov's Gun even more egregious in the context of Guild Wars 2.

> @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> It's also a story telling guide to prevent the writer from adding too many details that seem more important than they are, and I would struggle to believe ArenaNet is going to make the Gods and all the information about where they are and their magic details that are not important.

Simply put there's more to it than your definition as well.

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> > And what beings have been capable of siphoning specific types of magic into vessels that are not themselves before?

> Everyone from Asura to gods.

Exactly.

And specifically for Dragon Magic it's limited to Chak and the Gods.

And what beings have been capable of siphoning specific types of magic into vessels that are not themselves before?

> @"Genesis.8572" said:

> > @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> > But it would not be out of nowhere or contrived due to the repeated, continued references to them, their abilities and their magic and especially if there is an episode or two dedicated to finding them. It's a Chekhov's Gun in action, not a Deus Ex Machina.

> >

> > It does not fit into the definition in the way you're thinking at all.

> I don't think that "Chekhov's Gun" means what you think it means. It's about creating a tighter story by reducing extraneous elements that serve no narrative purpose. It's a general principle for writing that if you make the effort to introduce even an innocuous element in your story that you should use it later. I don't think that the gods in Guild Wars are that innocuous given just how heavily they dominated the story and lore. Furthermore, Chekhov's own focus was short stories and not episodic fantasy video game epics. And one of the pitfalls of people attempting to analyze complex narratives in-progress is that everyone finds "guns" lying around the narrative that they are convinced will shoot later.

>

> One of the best uses, IMHO, is also in a classic movie where the trope gets inverted. The protagonist mentions how they bought a gun to commit suicide. It resurfaces as a prop in several scenes around his apartment too. Then at a New Year party at work with their boss, the female character realizes that the protagonist, and not her work boss, is the man who truly loves her. So she goes back to his apartment, and at the door she hears a gun shot. Frightful that he attempted suicide with the gun established previously, she bangs on the door only to discover that the protagonist had simply opened up a bottle of champagne. That is how you use Chekhov's Gun.

That's one way to use it, but more broadly the term references that everything introduced in a story needs to have a purpose. So far, despite a few hiccups, that is what Path of Fire is doing, even returning to Balthazar in the latest one.

It's also a story telling guide to prevent the writer from adding too many details that seem more important than they are, and I would struggle to believe ArenaNet is going to make the Gods and all the information about where they are and their magic details that are not important.

> @"derd.6413" said:

> > @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> > But it would not be out of nowhere or contrived due to the repeated, continued references to them, their abilities and their magic and especially if there is an episode or two dedicated to finding them. It's a Chekhov's Gun in action, not a Deus Ex Machina.

> >

> > It does not fit into the definition in the way you're thinking at all.

>

> besides all the refrences that they *left* as in *are gone* as in *not here* and lyssa being shady with the balth situation: what refrences?

The latter alone is enough to qualify. But alright: Kormir literally appearing, the Underworld, Desmina and Dhuum, literally whatever Balthazar says in the story regarding his ex-fellows, the Garden of the Gods collection, Taimi's as of yet unfinished statement about the Exalted and the Gods, whether it's "The Exalted say the Gods-" or not, that's still information that's yet to be explained.

Whether you like it or not, the Gods as a story element are still very much there and active and by most narrative laws they are expected to do something.

But it would not be out of nowhere or contrived due to the repeated, continued references to them, their abilities and their magic and especially if there is an episode or two dedicated to finding them. It's a Chekhov's Gun in action, not a Deus Ex Machina.

It does not fit into the definition in the way you're thinking at all.

You're not quite understanding what a deus ex machina is, are you? You're repeating the term because you think it's an argument when it's not.

EDIT: Yes, I know that, thank you. But that still requires Kralkatorrik to be beaten which as we have literally JUST seen is IMPOSSIBLE from all of Aurene's visions. Another factor is required that wasn't present in those visions and that was the Gods. It could be anything else that can be newly created for that purpose, yes, but the Gods make the most sense for the story as it is currently being told. People's dislike of the Gods, no matter how justified they think they are, does not effect this simple storytelling fact.

... Yes, umh, you know that whole replacing thing? That requires Kralkatorrik gone and his power transferred. This just about shows the amount of creative thought you're giving to this: The Gods -are- the method by which replacement can happen, by transferring magic they have been shown to be able to handle (Via Balthazar) to Aurene. What I am suggesting and hoping for is not them directly fighting Kralkatorrik, but directly helping and being a direct factor to his defeat, but of course you lack reading comprehension to understand that. There is nothing deus ex machina about this as it's making use of ingame information that we already know and combining it for a result, and especially if there's an episode or two dedicated to finding the Gods it doesn't come out of nowhere like any other possible solution to Kralkatorrik would at this point.

And one of the primary reasons for the Gods not being involved in fighting the Elder Dragons is the damage it'll do to Tyria, if Kralkatorrik is in the Mists, that removes the primary limitation to the Gods' involvement. There is no "Hand-waving" involved, all those previous reasons are perfectly legitimate because of one constant factor: Tyria. All the scenarios that the Gods might have been a big help were taking place on Tyria where they can't use their powers in a noticeably offensive manner without causing a second Crystal Desert. They neither weasel out of responsibility or hand-wave at any point in the story if you actually apply some critical thought to their actions.

"most boring characters in guild wars" I'm not even gonna respond to that.

And what would you prefer? Something entirely new being created for the specific purpose of winning against Kralkatorrik with little explanation or build-up or would you like something previously established to be the major factor for winning instead? Here's your answer: The better option in terms of storytelling is the second one and the Gods are it.

Sorry but the Gods aren’t just GW1 nostalgia, they’re an intrinsic part of the universe and not just exclusive to one game in the franchise. And also one of the most interesting parts of said universe.

The Gods have been out of the story for a while, from the start of GW2 infact. And now they’ve been increasingly involved and referenced since the start of Path of Fire, for obvious reasons.

Or did you miss Kormir, Lyssa references and the Underworld raid?

It's just easier to refer to them that way.

I don't think being able to create portals and rifts is a Divine magic thing. It's likely just an innate ability of the base Mist beings the Gods are before you add Divine magic on top of that.

Though it does pose an interesting question as to what can and can't Elder Dragons absorb. We know Divine magic repels dragon minions and likely cannot be consumed by the Elder Dragons.

We have Balthazar's sword still holding it's magic and remaining uncorrupted by the Brand, for example. And Kormir's fire keeping the Sanctum safe from Branded.

As I said I'm excited to see what happens next primarily because Kormir said the Gods could not fight the Elder Dragons because of the destruction caused to Tyria in the event of a fight.

If Kralkatorrik is the Mists, however...

SCREEEEEEE

> @"cptaylor.2670" said:

> Well I imagine this deadeye is going to take Balth's place. Else what would the point of her introduction? What kind of role would she serve that some rando npc deadeye couldn't?

poor grenth, he'll be the only boy

I was pleasantly surprised by the introduction of a priestess of Balthazar character and that she'll be sticking around. A lot of what she said really resonated. Relighting his sword and that doing so still activates his magic, and that the sword CANNOT be corrupted by the Brand is very exciting for me too in it's implications. Kormir's Fire keeping the Refuge safe from the Brand as well.

Kralkatorrik in the Mists is very exciting. Let's see what they do from here. Fingers crossed the Gods still have a role to play now there's an Elder Dragon romping about in the Mists.

But also, SCREEE CLIFFHANGER.

I'd like for Balthazar's replacement to be a "Nameless" God that people can choose to assume is (one of) the human PCs from GW1. Emphasise the "good" part of Balthazar's profile, such as honour, fighting to protect, etcetera.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/-wEsR2hHyJQ/maxresdefault.jpg

Looking like this. Blue fire. Guardian motifs, stuff like that.

Failing that, just bring Balthazar back and have him learn his lesson and do something to help redeem himself.

But who am I kidding, it's never going to be touched on again, and if it is it'll be negative.

Fingers crossed that people realise Balthazar was capable of absorbing dragon magic without noticeable corruption unlike other Tyria-bound creatures and the Gods have a history of sharing magic...

Seems to me like they would be good conduits for transferring the magic to properly "raised" dragons like Aurene.

how utterly boring

umh sweety to say the humans have no aptitude for magic or even science is false

watchknights and every major character that's cast impressive magic without the help of magitech or an artifact being human for a start