ThatOddOne.4387

The Gods are more than powerful enough to fight an Elder Dragon. Balthazar was exceedingly weak compared to how he was because the other Gods specifically drained him. Even after he absorbed all he could from the Bloodstone, Jormag and Primordus he was nowhere near the level Gods are. The reason they avoided fighting the Elder Dragons is not because they couldn't win, but because the damage inflicted whether they won or lost through collateral would be too great, and they knew killing the Elder Dragons outright without replacing them was bad and that solution wasn't ready yet.

And there should already be a replacement for Balthazar if ArenaNet are keeping to their own lore, as people have said several times on these forums.

From a story standpoint the reason I say the Gods contain Kralkatorrik or keep him busy is so that the characters we're more familiar with still have agency, I'm not saying the Gods should have all the answers to the current predicament, but they should give an opportunity for all the characters involved to get those answers. (And if they're busy fighting a super-powered Elder Dragon, trying to stop him eating more of the Mists, they probably won't be able to just casually chat about how to fix the problem but hey)

Because the simple fact of the matter is that, from a story and in universe perspective both, if Kralkatorrik is left to just sit in the Mists he'll be even more powerful and pretty much unstoppable. So either he's suddenly beaten in the next episode, or he is contained/put to sleep/distracted in the finale going into the next Season. The Gods (Or another Elder Dragon) are really the only beings left we've seen continual references to with the ability to intervene against Kralkatorrik at this stage.

Everything even vaguely technological that doesn't have glowing lights on it is charr technology, donchaknow?

I do think your final theory is what's going to happen. The Gods aren't going to provide a solution, they're going to provide a stay of execution so we can get another solution in place. The main reason they avoided fighting the Elder Dragons was the collateral of doing so. So long as they fight and contain Kralkatorrik in the Mists but not kill him, the balance is still unthreatened and the collateral of their clash does not effect Tyria. They just need to perform some sort of holding action so Tyria can get its act together.

As ArenaNet said, Kralkatorrik is more than just a Tyria-level threat now, he's a threat to all of reality, and I think that will change the Gods calculations on the matter - Before their decision was only predicated on the fact that the Dragons were bound to Tyria, now Kralkatorrik is not, an ability likely gained from Balthazar, that may well be the gamechanger the Gods either require or, in fact, have been waiting for this whole time, to allow their involvement.

They've had some plan RE the Elder Dragons. They were involved with the Forgotten and Glint's solution, but Glint said that the plans of the Gods are beyond her knowing. So there is clearly something up there.

The Roman Empire was not a society focused on warfare. What made it so good at warfare was it's grasp of other elements apart from "having people who like to/are good at fighting".

So, yeah, I do know my history, thanks.

The southern Shiverpeaks were not the norn's territory during the charr's attempted invasion of Kryta. They were further north at the time.

I don't know. The humans of Ascalon did pretty fine without any help from the Gods or anyone else. It took the charr resorting to the Searing to bring them to their knees - Nothing to do with this apparently legendary charr prowess in battle.

How would the humans not have similar experience in battle after literal centuries of conflict? How does any race in Tyria not also 'live and breath war'?

(Also, you know, cultures entirely based on warfare have not fared well in real world history)

I still think people are massively underestimating Kryta and Ebonhawke here. Let's have some context:

Ascalon, Kryta and Orr were far from their glory days when the charr began their war against humanity. They had been riven by literal_ centuries_ of infighting and wars thus drained of manpower and funds.

It took the Searing to bring Ascalon to its knees after decades of conflict - by itself, with all the handicaps mentioned above - and even then it still took the full united might of the charr time to overcome the Ascalonians, and then after two centuries of sieging a singular city, cut off from aid and supplies, they could not manage to take that.

Kryta was suffering from poor morale after their king fled, and even if the mursaat offered help the charr simply could not counter, the majority of the fighting in throwing back the charr was performed by a, most critically, devoted, fanatical and motivated force of _humans_. Kryta was also, at the time, far less developed and populated than it is in modern GW2. Divinity's Reach is essentially Ebonhawke on steroids in terms of defensibility if the charr even got that far through forts, havens and hostile territory the humans know far better than they do.

Orr was not even fully conquered by the charr when it was sunk by Khilbron. Orr was a decaying kingdom far passed it's prime, hit even worse by the Guild Wars than either of the other two, and likely significantly depopulated.

More to the point, no kingdom aided any of the others at any point. The charr took Ascalon and Orr (thanks to Khilbron, mostly) out piecemeal. And then when they went up against Kryta to do the same, they failed.

The charr didn't attack humanity when they were at their apex, they attacked them after humanity had knocked itself down far from it's pinnacle.

It is quite clear that Kryta is well positioned to fight the charr to a standstill without the aid of any of the other races. They are united, consolidated and motivated, with a far more stable position in the world. On the offence I very much concur that they would not make much headway against the charr - But they don't need to. They just need to hold on to what they have, the charr need to take land to fuel their war machine, whilst the humans can subsist on what they have. That's what they have adapted to do, whilst the Legions need to expand to justify their existence, especially during wartime. For every day, month or year Kryta denies the charr their expansion, the more unstable the Legions become.

(Gonna shill the Templin Institute here, their video is great

Because the magic comes from an actual, living being and is intrinsic to their make-up as a species, not an inanimate object imparted some magic from that being that the being promptly replaced. Gods did not become weaker when creating magical artifacts, thus that magic is not as important, because it just happily regenerated, whilst, again, the ability to Mist Walk is not just a fancy magical ability, _it is part of their make-up/genes/construction as a race_. Just like humans having a heart is. It is as Konig says: An Elder Dragon eating the minion of another Elder Dragon does not give it a tiny sliver of their Elder Dragons magic because that comes from the others Sphere of Influence which does not budge until that dragon actually dies. The same is true with the Gods, evidently.

The point is even if artifacts had magic directly from the Gods, they did not have magic intrinsic to the Gods themselves as beings (The power to enter, traverse and exit the Mists at will being the most visible one), thus the Dragons could not replicate that magic because it is just magic to them that is consumed and turned into their respective signature magics.

They wouldn't. Unlike the charr, the humans, culturally, have very much by-in-large moved on from the loss of Ascalon and Orr, they have very little drive or inclination to attack the charr, whilst the opposite is true for the charr.

I disagree that norn culture favours charr. One is extremely regimented and controlled, the other isn't. Along with a multitude of other differences.

I'm thinking Charr Homeland. The death of Kralkatorrik should dramatically alter the Charr's foreign policy as the threat of the Brand is one, if not the primary, reason they sought peace with humanity.

Oh also I think Cantha will have been destroyed by the Deep Sea Dragon, because Oooh Big Threat!

Which is false.

I'm of the opinion Kralkatorrik being in the Mists and being a threat to all reality is going to be a crucial plotpoint for what happens next, and that he is indeed going to be disabled/imprisoned/delayed long enough in the Mists for people on Tyria to get a solution in place and ready.

The map release will likely be related to that. Not Mists based because ArenaNet have said they're not doing that because of the world space stuff, but it will be connected to either the solution OR calling in/using what's going to keep Kralkatorrik busy.

Not anymore, and even if they were that's still not an excuse to make war on them.

Why exactly would the norn join the charr? Just because "they're strong"? That's not how the norn work.

I'm assuming nearly everyone would support if not side with the humans to maintain the status quo as established with the treaty, as they would recognize that the charr are reneging on said treaty just because they have the opportunity to.

Perspective is important as well. Ebonhawke would be the first target in a charr/human war, it would be the main point of the conflict, the flashpoint, and crucially the humans would be on the defensive and that is far more likely to breed sympathy especially given Ebonhawke's been through all that before.

The most likely outcome is a bloody stalemate unless Ebonhawke is taken by storm with the charr taking advantage of the treaty suddenly ending and moving in before the humans have a chance to react, and that would DEFINITELY mean others would be more inclined to take humanity's side given the atrocity that would have just been committed.

This is how international relations work. The aggressor will nearly always be seen in a worse light, whether they have 'justifications' or not. And who is more likely to be the aggressor? The charr.

The humans are more than capable of fighting the charr to a stand still even without the aid of other races.

Yes, they are evil. Not due to what they are (Elder Dragons) but their own individual personalities.

Still wanting Taimi to remember what she was trying to tell the Commander through white noise about the Exalted and the Gods.

Clarification: He got into the Domain of the Lost only, which isn't the whole Underworld.

> @"Cristalyan.5728" said:

> > @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> > The Fallen Gods do not have the blinding aura which is specifically connected with the magic that the Gods hold (Aka, 'Divine' magic) because they do not have that Divine magic. The two are one in the same. Blinding aura = Has Divine magic. (Unless constrained via God-forged bindings like Abaddon, apparently)

>

> The blinding effect is something ANet invented to make the Six more goddish. Is on the same level of credibility as the "divine magic" concept.

> Speaking of Auras with blinding effects, I remember that until recently the Mesmers had the **blind** as an effect of their Chaos Armor. Is this a proof that all the mesmers had divine magic ?

Do not be obtuse, you know exactly what I mean, we've even seen the effect in game and the status effect inflicted by conditions is no where near the same significance or level. In the lore we have the evidence of Malchor attesting to the power of the blinding effect and it's significance, and it's tie to the divine magic the Gods wield.

You are wrong on this.

Starting to hope the new God of War is a resurrected Rurik, to be honest.

Which could tie in very nicely with Sohothin and Ruinbringer being continued players in the story, and help tie into a Charr-focused expansion. Bangar hates humans and suddenly the last prince of Ascalon is now returned as a God of War, the previous one of which encouraged humanity to kick the charr out of Ascalon in the first place. Kralkatorrik will be theoretically gone so the danger of the Brand is reduced and that was one of the reasons for the High Legions seeking peace with the humans.

Cue Bangar using this as justification for renewing the war with humanity, and of course Rytlock will lead Blood Legion loyal to him against Bangar whilst the Iron and Ash Legions elect to keep their treaty with Ebonhawke/humanity. Perfect breeding ground for a more grounded expansion story.

Wild theory but hey, I can dream.

I'm partly on your wavelength here Konig but on the other hand it is a pretty interesting twist. Not sure about the mechanics of it, but maybe then the magic is simply removed from Tyria as you suggested and thus the overall amount of magic needed to balance on the planet itself is reduced?

This doesn't solve the question, maybe the magic will continue to build on it's own accord or return back to Tyria much more slowly and thus threaten the balance again, but it's not a sudden happening.

It's less a solution in this case and more a stay of execution - Gives people time to figure out another solution or return Aurene or find another replacement.

Incidently, that's what I believe the Gods can be used for as a narrative force - As a stay of execution to give Tyria time to find a solution and/or breathing space. I'm not expecting them to have the solution and solve everything as I agree that is poor storytelling, but they can certainly give the characters time that they're continually short of to come up with that solution. That's a rather... Godly/Parental thing to do, in my mind.

> @"derd.6413" said:

> > @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> > > @"derd.6413" said:

> > > > @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> > > > > @"derd.6413" said:

> > > > > > @"ugrakarma.9416" said:

> > > > > >> @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> > > > > > > Also confirmation that Kralkatorrik is back in the Mists now instead of elsewhere on Tyria - People thought he would head to another part of Elona or to the Charr Lands where he awoke, but it seems that's not the case - And giving more grounds to the theory that he could just consume the entirety of the Mists which definitely classifies him as more than a Tyria-level threat.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > its seems to me a prepared ground for Gods come back in next episode.

> > > > >

> > > > > i think that's just your headcanon bias talking

> > > > >

> > > > > i mean serious, everytime the mists get mentioned ppl go "humen gawds retern?!?" , there's more in the mists then the human gods, ya know

> > > >

> > > > Correct but in the context of the current story they are the story elements most connected to the Mists and the most mentioned, so it stands to reason if they are used it will be connected to the Mists rather than something new coming out of left field. Something new with the power to make a difference against Kralkatorrik at that, which would be even worse from the storytelling perspective (Why have we only just learned of this power now etcetc), sure they could introduce something new and Mists based as a response to Kralkatorrik sitting and eating up the Mists incessantly, but from a narrative point of view that would be strange when there is an already previously established force that could fulfill the same narrative requirement.

> > >

> > > Perhaps but even then it doesn't mean their return. Could be the spirits they abbandoned or their angels, or it could be the spirits of the wild.

> > >

> > > Honestly why would anet write the gods out of the story just to bring thzm back next season

> >

> > The Gods have evidently not been written out of the story however. What makes you think so?

> >

> > If they had truly been written out, there wouldn't be continued references to them throughout the entire expansion even after Balthazar's death. I don't know how you define writing something out but having continual references to something that has been supposedly written out of the story definitely doesn't classify amongst most definitions.

>

> because there was more to the gods then just the gods, there's still things the gods left behind when they went away. there's still their realms and all its inhabitants, their followers, their rtifacts and who knows what else. also ppl say there's loads of god references but i haven't seen that much of it since pof.

I don't think you're fully grasping what "writing out" means.

Everything you listed is still related to the Gods and for as long as they continue to be the Gods themselves are not written out of the story and so are just as liable to be relevant to the story as their artifacts and anything related to them is.

That's how writing works, and it's not bias to want to see a narrative thread that continues to exist be tied off or revisited.

> @"derd.6413" said:

> > @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> > > @"derd.6413" said:

> > > > @"ugrakarma.9416" said:

> > > >> @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> > > > > Also confirmation that Kralkatorrik is back in the Mists now instead of elsewhere on Tyria - People thought he would head to another part of Elona or to the Charr Lands where he awoke, but it seems that's not the case - And giving more grounds to the theory that he could just consume the entirety of the Mists which definitely classifies him as more than a Tyria-level threat.

> > > >

> > > > its seems to me a prepared ground for Gods come back in next episode.

> > >

> > > i think that's just your headcanon bias talking

> > >

> > > i mean serious, everytime the mists get mentioned ppl go "humen gawds retern?!?" , there's more in the mists then the human gods, ya know

> >

> > Correct but in the context of the current story they are the story elements most connected to the Mists and the most mentioned, so it stands to reason if they are used it will be connected to the Mists rather than something new coming out of left field. Something new with the power to make a difference against Kralkatorrik at that, which would be even worse from the storytelling perspective (Why have we only just learned of this power now etcetc), sure they could introduce something new and Mists based as a response to Kralkatorrik sitting and eating up the Mists incessantly, but from a narrative point of view that would be strange when there is an already previously established force that could fulfill the same narrative requirement.

>

> Perhaps but even then it doesn't mean their return. Could be the spirits they abbandoned or their angels, or it could be the spirits of the wild.

>

> Honestly why would anet write the gods out of the story just to bring thzm back next season

The Gods have evidently not been written out of the story however. What makes you think so?

If they had truly been written out, there wouldn't be continued references to them throughout the entire expansion even after Balthazar's death. I don't know how you define writing something out but having continual references to something that has been supposedly written out of the story definitely doesn't classify amongst most definitions.

> @"derd.6413" said:

> > @"ugrakarma.9416" said:

> >> @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> > > Also confirmation that Kralkatorrik is back in the Mists now instead of elsewhere on Tyria - People thought he would head to another part of Elona or to the Charr Lands where he awoke, but it seems that's not the case - And giving more grounds to the theory that he could just consume the entirety of the Mists which definitely classifies him as more than a Tyria-level threat.

> >

> > its seems to me a prepared ground for Gods come back in next episode.

>

> i think that's just your headcanon bias talking

>

> i mean serious, everytime the mists get mentioned ppl go "humen gawds retern?!?" , there's more in the mists then the human gods, ya know

Correct but in the context of the current story they are the story elements most connected to the Mists and the most mentioned, so it stands to reason if they are used it will be connected to the Mists rather than something new coming out of left field. Something new with the power to make a difference against Kralkatorrik at that, which would be even worse from the storytelling perspective (Why have we only just learned of this power now etcetc), sure they could introduce something new and Mists based as a response to Kralkatorrik sitting and eating up the Mists incessantly, but from a narrative point of view that would be strange when there is an already previously established force that could fulfill the same narrative requirement.