ThatOddOne.4387

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Founding

The Final Onslaught, quote: "But for every human that fell, a dozen charr lay dead before them."

Hmmmmmm.

Right, which brings me into my next point that if our victory over Kralkatorrik does not involve us at least stripping his non-native magic from him (Zhaitan, Mordremoth, Balthazar) then it will not be a satisfying finale.

Is there though?

Divine magic cannot be corrupted, and we know Balthazar’s sword still has divine magic whilst he did not.

Also where did I say we would use it? All I am thinking is that it will be a factor.

> @"castlemanic.3198" said:

> > @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> > Balthazar - His sword is still about, and given it wasn't corrupted by the Brand after lying in it for several Living World episodes after Balthazar exploded, and was implied to still have some of his essence within it, well, maybe I'm just being overly hopeful.

>

> We used the sword at the end of episode 4 to place a tracker on Kralkatorrik. We no longer have access to it since Kralkatorrik seemingly swallowed it.

I’m aware of what it was used for, and that’s what I’m talking about.

Thinking about it some more, it comes down to two options to me:

Fractal time loop as suggested by Konig, or something to do with Balthazar - His sword is still about, and given it wasn't corrupted by the Brand after lying in it for several Living World episodes after Balthazar exploded, and was implied to still have some of his essence within it, well, maybe I'm just being overly hopeful.

I'd be more satisfied with the latter, but so long as the former is properly set-up and explained, I'd be fine with it. That's one of the drawbacks of making the Fractals and interaction with the Mists so... Scientific, it means you can't just wave your hands and go "magic did it", it has to be properly explained.

Hopefully it's not just a random asura device pulled out of nowhere.

Going to this suddenly revealed dragon land would be a bit too out of the blue for me, there's been absolutely no prior reference to anything like it existing.

ArenaNet have said before that WvW and the Story wouldn't intersect so "War Eternal" has nothing to do with the battle in the Mists, I think. And I hope it doesn't.

Nor do I think "trapping Kralkatorrik in a constant Fractal loop" is a satisfying way to conclude the Season, which ArenaNet have said, and I quote "Would end with a bang".

I think that "dragon" we're seeing is just a new griffon skin.

Whilst the fractal loop theory is interesting, I question the naming of it. Eternal War seems a bit grand for what would essentially just be a constant battle to keep Kralkatorrik occupied. With who? What?

Why do I get the feeling someone's not going to stay dead, and it's not Aurene?

People "hate" humans because that's the cool thing to do and for some reason they're bitter that humans are the most popular race to play, which smacks of "you like what I don't like so you must be wrong" school of thought to me, which I abhor.

You come off as a bit unhinged on this subject.

A cross between a dragon and a kraken is my bet.

The mind boggles at how you seriously come to that conclusion.

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > @"Narcemus.1348" said:

> > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > > @"Narcemus.1348" said:

> > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Narcemus.1348" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> > > > > > > > > > Why is it so hard to accept that humans (and any other race) have the capacity to learn and advance?

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Just like charr have the capacity to advance and learn in regards to the use of magic (As evidenced by Guardians in the Iron Legion, and Necromancers in Ash), humans have the capacity to advance and learn in regards to the use of engineering which eventually birthed the Watchknight.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Why is it also so hard to understand that in game locations are in actuality much bigger in the lore? Divinity's Reach is made to hold "hundreds of thousands", it's in game representation certainly cannot. So why is it so hard to imagine that there are indeed the facilities required to completely construct Watchknights in house?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > That is because of lack of evidence in game and in the lore. The only evidence we can find is that humans are faith-based society that focused on magic instead of engineering. By contrast, the Charrs distrust magic so they focused on engineering. The evidence to support those are all over the game and in the lore. Yes some Charr uses magic but not at the level of the Flame Legion or humans, and yes humans have engineers but not at the level to rival the Charrs'. The only real evidence is that human can build stuff, but the only human that actually focused on engineering is a crazy person who built a mechanical band and a golem based on a stole design to abduct the queen. That's not really a convincing argument. Even though humans have the capacity to learn and advance, it doesn't necessarily means that they are willing to use those knowledge. It's the difference between knowing and doing. While the Charrs are building tanks, the humans are praying in their shrines.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Now the humans supposedly have designed and built the Watchknights. Why now? Why not 250 years ago? According to the arguments written in this discussion, humans are capable of doing so seeing how advanced the Luxons were and how the Istani made mechanical toys. Yet, for the last 250 years, Kryta only managed to built Divinity's Reach and places shrines of the gods all over the city. Take note the name of the city, Divinity's Reach, it's appropriate to the kind of society the Krytans have become. My point is, the Watchknight came out of nowhere and was only created to setup the Living Story that, to be honest, ruined the lore for the sake of an ambitious goal of releasing content every 2 weeks. They made a Living Story with no regards to the established lore which gives me plenty of reason to be skeptic.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Maybe they didn't build them 250 years ago because the steam creatures were a recent creation, and they were what prompted the idea in the first place? Perhaps it was a lack of inspiration, not a lack of capability?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > That is more the reason that humans are incapable of creating them themselves prior to the existence of the steam creature. However, I doubt that.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > They simply have no way to fabricate the parts or how to convert a clock works mechanism into a combat-ready automaton.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > For 250 years, humans are still using ballista and catapults while Charr are using cannons and tanks. You're basically looking at a showdown between the Roman Empire and the 1914 German Empire.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Plus all you have to do it look at the Upper City in Divinity' reach to know that humanity has the ability to make grand mechanical contraptions.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > For the last 250 years, they just now realize that the citizens of Divinity's Reach needs the Watchknight for protection. Protection against what exactly? The war is over. However the timing of it is suspect. It is plausible that the only reason that the humans were able to build the Watchknight is due to the human-Charr peace treaty allowing the humans access to the Black Citadel's Imperial Smelter. I mean they are at war with the Charr for that long and they never thought about building weapons of war that can rival the Charrs? Even suspending my disbelief that narrative simple makes no sense. What makes sense is that, as an act of good faith, humans are purchasing Charr goods, ordering ironwork parts, and even collaborating in the Watchknight design. If I am wrong, then I am wrong. I'm sure ArenaNet can come up with a better narrative like attacking Mord in the heart of Maguuma with the whole Pact fleet with zero intelligence information because nobody bother to send out a recon team ahead of the fleet. Yup that makes total sense, the commander is incompetent in commanding an army.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Maybe what you need to remember is that what is shown in the game isn't necessarily everything that exists in Tyria. You act like humans can't use or create advanced machinery when based on the ghosts we can see at Grendich in ascalon, we can see that humans had access to cannons before the Foefire even, that's not even including the differing war weapons found by other human kingdoms. We also have evidence of humans working with clockwork technology through the Upper City and the Band and humans have also been seen infusing magic into items since early in the game through many, many experiences in GW1, with the miniatures being the example of their magic giving a semblance of life to the items they imbue. It is far easier, from what we have experienced in both games, to believe that humans were able to create the Watchknights from some forge that we just don't see in game than it was to believe that the barbaric Charr that we met in Guild Wars 1 were able to create the massive industrial society that we see today. You can't accept one hard to believe situation without a doubt and refuse to believe the other.

> > > > >

> > > > > I never said that they can't create advance machinery, since it's fairly obvious that they can create a siege engine. However, the cannons in Ascalon are stolen Charr weapons.

> > > > >

> > > > > What I've been saying is that they didn't focused on it because they focused instead on their faith, which means they never made a facility to produce the parts to make any modern weapon for war.

> > > > >

> > > > > To build a single Watchknight, they have to mass produce the gears and other parts that goes in it...where did they mass produced those parts? Divinity's Reach only have local blacksmiths. The only plausible source of mass produced parts is the Black Citadel's Imperial Smelter. So seeing that there are many Watchknights that we can beat up to scraps for fun shows that mass producing the parts are very important, otherwise it would be very expensive and if it is expensive, we would not be allowed to beat them up for fun. Not only mass producing the parts, but also mass producing the Watchknights. Where are all these things coming from?

> > > >

> > > > I love that you ignore the point that I made that we obviously don't see everything that exists in Tyria in the game. I mean could you really call Kryta a kingdom if it controlled such small landmass? Only like 5-10 villages with nowhere near enough farming and agriculture to support what exists? Charr are capable of surviving as a mostly meat only society with only the few ranches we find in the world? Really? And do you honestly think only one smelter located in the middle of a city would be capable of creating all of the massive charr vehicles we see? Plus, let's be honest, do the Watchknights look anything close to charr technology? Their work is far more brutish and crude, not to say it doesn't work, but the **human Watchknights look to require more finesse, more intricacy** than the general charr engineer could provide, especially at mass produced levels. But this doesn't matter. You have no interest in what others have to say on the matter or what valid points they bring up. I'm done with responding to you.

> > >

> > > Really? If that is true, then the production of each Wathknight is very expensive. If that is the case, then Kryta is super rich since we're just bashing those watchnights to scraps during the jubilee. Yes, you don't have to respond.

> >

> > I mean... you saw the Pavillion, right? _Everything_ about the Jubilee speaks to obscene amounts of money being thrown around. If you're already spending enough to turn a several hundred foot sinkhole into an elaborate, artistic arena, and the surrounding residential neighborhood into gardens, and then only use any of it for a couple festivals a year... the expense of hand-crafted automatons isn't going to slow you down any.

>

> The "artistic arena" is nothing original nor something unheard of before, but it is nothing but a Krytan version of the X-men's Danger Room. If you read the description about it, they are mesmer illusions, no different than the Danger Room's holographic projections to make the encounters and the danger look and feel real. That "artistic arena" is but an empty room with watchknight automatons. The only thing that is real is what's on top, not what's inside the hole. So I really doubt that they've thrown an "obscene amount of money" to it. Everything is run on illusion magic.

Wow, you completely missed the point.

The engineering knowledge required to build the arena is what is being referenced.

... stolen charr weapons? what?

the charr during that period of time didn't even USE cannons. they were still your stereotypical savage horde

and again, the very existence of the watchknight proves that the humans DO have those facilities, because as you say they are needed to build the watchknights, and the watchknights exist, thus the facilities to build them exist

also nothing about the watchknights says they are mass produced, mass production is not even something the modern charr can do

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> > Only it was the plan for the long term.

>

> There was never a long term plan. Every episode, every expansion, are all short term plans.

It was the Forgotten's and Glint's long term plan, since I apparently need to be laser-focused specific.

Only it was the plan for the long term.

What Aurene did was Branding, no question about it. She doesn't exercise any control she might have because of that Branding because she's a "good dragon". But the possibility of Aurene being able to do so is what caused consternation in Rytlock and Canach. I think that's a perfectly reasonable reaction. What happens if she doesn't stay good?

Replacing dragons with other dragons was a flawed concept from the beginning because it relies on those dragons staying incorruptible and moral throughout millennia of existence. Something I consider to be unlikely.

Vlast likely made himself explode to try and hurt or otherwise drive Balthazar away from the Commander, which succeeded. It didn't happen just because he died, he chose to do it.

Also, bit of a different situation. He had been fatally wounded and was dying, Aurene was blasted at point blank range by an Elder Dragon.

I would kind of like to see, regardless of what happens with Kralkatorrik, the Commander being comparatively disgraced regardless due to their handling of Balthazar, Joko and then even Kralkatorrik himself. That would be an interesting way to take the story in my opinion.

Because let's be honest, for people who don't have all the knowledge we have looking at what the Commander's done, it's not exactly been very well handled, now has it? From their perspective the Commander's been stumbling from crisis to crisis and only really solving it through sheer blind luck and fortune.

I think that's going to be the ultimate "from hells heart I stab at thee" from Joko - Being proven right about the Commander to others in the universe, even if we the players know the Commander really had very little choice.

What a load of nonsense.

Why is it so hard to accept that humans (and any other race) have the capacity to learn and advance?

Just like charr have the capacity to advance and learn in regards to the use of magic (As evidenced by Guardians in the Iron Legion, and Necromancers in Ash), humans have the capacity to advance and learn in regards to the use of engineering which eventually birthed the Watchknight.

Why is it also so hard to understand that in game locations are in actuality much bigger in the lore? Divinity's Reach is made to hold "hundreds of thousands", it's in game representation certainly cannot. So why is it so hard to imagine that there are indeed the facilities required to completely construct Watchknights in house?

I think we'll only be going to the Charr Homelands as part of Season 5, which will, I think, be clean-up and recovery from the finale that will be Episode 6 and setting up a potential new expansion.

For the Episode itself, I now believe we will be going somewhere with another portal to the Mists. The map will not be the Mists itself because ArenaNet have said that isn't going to happen, it needs to be somewhere in the world. The portal in the Primeval Tomb we know leads to Kormir's Sanctum which is now abandoned, so it will be functionally useless to go there again, and also, you know, there needs to be a new map.

It could be somewhere in Elona, but with Thunderhead Peaks that throws it into the air somewhat, it doesn't necessarily have to be in Elona.

I've got a sneaking suspicion, and hope, that it might be somewhere in Orr, possibly the southern portion that is connected to Elona. An "Artesian Valley" or similar locale if you will.

Either that, or as has been said Kralkatorrik's mesa where he was hanging out after the main Path of Fire story finished, or somewhere further out into the Crystal Desert.

I'm definitely getting a bit twitchy waiting on the next story! And the next episode, even.

There is no inkling of a connection between Kralkatorrik and the Searing, and a Searing-esque solution to Kralkatorrik coming out of left field with no prior set-up would just be bizarre.

what on earth makes you think divinity's reach doesn't have the facilities to forge watchknights?

i mean, besides the fact that it obviously DOES, because the watchknights exist.