ThatOddOne.4387

"going extinct"

"still more populous than any of the other races"

does not add up

humans are the premier magical race however

No.

The only race they brought to Tyria were humans. Forgotten and Dwarves worshipped the Six or at least Dwayna and Grenth in the Dwarves' case.

So they weren't and aren't "human only".

They are still Gods. Just because you think they don't classify doesn't make it true. They are stated to be Gods by the creators of the universe, therefore, they are Gods.

What different races view them as is irrelevant, they would be wrong. Nor is what they actually are relevant, powerful Mist beings or whatever. They are most certainly Gods relative to anything else in the GW universe bar the Elder Dragons. They are unique and operate by their own rules clearly separate from other rules.

Your views are perfectly reasonable for characters *in universe* to believe, but with us as outside observers of the story we can use the multitude of evidence and hindsight available to us to categorically state that yes, they are indeed Gods.

> @"Cristalyan.5728" said:

> 1. We know nothing about the old world from where the humans originated. We don't even know if the last place from where the humans emerged was indeed their home world. Taking into account the tendency of the gods to leave the world when they are in trouble in order to populate another "safe" world, my opinion is that the humans brought by the gods in Tyria are not all the humans, and also they are not the faithful. The Tyrian humans are the descendants of the **lucky** survivors of the old world.

> 2. We have no clue why they evacuated the old world. But, no matter what happened there, the god were as skillful as they are now in dealing with the situation - I mean **complete impotent**! But I'm sure - they become better and better at evacuation maneuvers. (what I don't understand - they knew of the dragon existence for more than 10 000 years. They knew that a fight with the dragons is catastrophic to Tyria no matter who the winner is. Then, why they decided right now, when the Dragons are awake and we already started the fight, to **search for a suitable place** to evacuate the humans? Right now? They had 10 millennia to do this).

> 3. You don't need a permission to worship someone. The respective god can ignore you, he can even kill you but cannot deny you the freedom to worship it. So, although they are human gods, I think everyone can worship them. The fact that every race can choose every specialization means that they can use the different types of magics, governed by different gods.

> 4. =) I think this is pure propaganda. To obtain a true honest statement, the words **their faithful** should be replaced with **the stupids**. Because only a few lucky will survive (at least after Taimi revelation when we found the dragons are now endangered species and are protected by law). And from that small number of lucky survivors you need truly stupid persons to believe again in the "god's" story about a new and safe and prosperous world.

>

> In my opinion the "gods" as they are now (I don't speak here about the gods from the start of the game - they were credible as gods) behaves as a bunch of slavers. Very powerful, very wise and old, herding the human cattle from pasture to pasture, searching a place with no predators. Because if they find predators they are unable to protect the herd. Or they don't want? I don't know. But wandering from place to place is not something a god should do.

>

> In my opinion, this is the contradiction laying in every "god" without any godish attribute. Well, they have one attribute - the divine power :# . Useless trait - until now the only thing we know is that the divine power is able to do is to destroy the world if left free. What about a more constructive approach? Something like - the divine power is able to **create** something rather than destroying everything? I think I ask too much - for creation you need brain. And is obvious the gods are powerful, old, cowards, herders, everything you want, and **brainless**. BLEAH - at least two times in a row being unable to prevent something to destroy the world? Are they able to learn?

There's quite a lot of things wrong with this post.

True enough.

> @"Eekasqueak.7850" said:

> > @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> > I'll be giving up all hope on ArenaNet's story telling ability when it comes to writing Gods if they make Lyssa a villain after all these hints.

>

> I have doubts that the gods were ever good in the first place, they dumped humans on Tyria only to abandon them when the dragons show up, they're at the very least callous and don't even get me started on Kormir... Maybe I've just played too much pillars of eternity but I think Humanity and Tyria as a whole would be better off forgetting the gods.

I disagree intensely. There were no hints that they were callous or uncaring in intent towards humanity when the universe (As in the lore universe) was first created and this has only recently come about because ArenaNet has been infected by an "all religion is bad" attitude that should not apply to religion in a fantasy universe.

Even -Abaddon- was to a certain extent caring for the humans. The only one you could argue that was not was Dhuum and he was promptly replaced by Grenth.

They also do not fight the dragons for a damned good reason: It would -destroy- the planet. Just from them fighting, never mind if they win or lose, both of which would also destroy the planet. You cannot -possibly- blame the Gods for that.

Also, do not apply your own bias from one game onto another. They are entirely different lore universes and you should compartmentalise them.

What happens when the Humans abandon the Gods in the story? They, at best, become non-furred charr or taller asura. The Gods are such an ingrained part of the Human thematic (So much so that a God's blessing is part of the character creation, just like choosing which Legion your charr is part of) that if taken away you might as well just remove the humans and create a new race. The closest equivalent is the Norn dropping the Spirits.

I'll be giving up all hope on ArenaNet's story telling ability when it comes to writing Gods if they make Lyssa a villain after all these hints.

Being called or regarded as a god by others is not a prerequisite for being a god as per Guild Wars' iteration on the matter. There is no evidence the gods draw strength from the number of followers like D&D gods do - Given how powerful Abaddon was even whilst chained, or that Dhuum was still strong enough to cause a headache for the Reapers and Grenth during GW1 era and then break free entirely during GW2. And they both had limited numbers of worshippers.

I certainly don't get the opinion that the Gods are uncaring or otherwise incompetent when it comes to the Dragons. If they know that conflict between Gods literally turns a sea into desert. (Crystal Sea --> Crystal Desert) then they are going to be VERY wary of using their power beyond their realms on Tyria regardless of the threat. And we know their mere proximity is enough for all of this.

I like the idea that they're searching for another world in case everything on Tyria goes to hell, but I would still like to have some confirmation from the Gods themselves that is what they are doing, rather than a book written by an unreliable narrator. The human narrative needs that pay-off.

> I agree with the OP - the "gods" are magic infused beings, insanely powerful and having great knowledge about the Universe. They are mortals - as the Balthazar episode shows - and have no hesitation to lie the humans that they are Gods.

Mmn. No. The Gods -are- immortal beings, but they can still be killed. They are not immortal as in invulerable, they are immortal as in they will not die from old age/probably most diseases.

> In my opinion they are Gods in the same way a rock or the Sky or a Corrupted Ice being is a God for grawls: The rock is eternal / the sky is untouchable / the Ice Being is very strong and can kill anything.

> From this point of view all the other races proved themselves smarter than the humans:

> - the Charr needs no gods - is a statement that everything the gods can do can be achieved by the charr society (with greater efforts and slowly, but eventually achievable)

> - the Assurans have no trust in the actual "gods". They acknowledged them as powerful and wise but they consider the gods to be part of the Eternal Alchemy - turning the EA into the creator of the gods.

> - the Nords already have other beings taking care of the world - they also acknowledged the gods but considers the Great Spirits to do a better job in preserving the Universe.

> - the Sylvari - they don't even know what a God is. Remember the dialogue in the Grove: "You constructed the Golem? That means you are its mother? Or the father?" In they minds everything is related with creation. No creation, then no Mother (or Father).

>

> The only remaining race stupid enough to worship the false gods are the humans. I think they should wake up and start to hunt down the impostors. Because, to do that is enough to strip them of divinity - and we know that even a human can do this.

what. no? Humans cannot strip gods of divinity. Also, I fail to see how worshipping the Gods makes humans less intelligent than other races?

Also you got it entirely wrong.:

- The Charr can come nowhere NEAR the Gods. They called Titans (Demons) Gods, they were wrong. The Titans were not gods and if they came up against proper Gods would be crushed like an ant beneath a boot. That's the difference in power. Charr cannot come anywhere near the Gods under their own effort. Physically impossible.

- The Asura acknowledge the Gods as powerful magical beings that are part of the Eternal Alchemy but they do not consider them CULTURALLY to be Gods. Big woop. That's just a difference in culture, doesn't prove they're better or smarter. They still ultimately view the Gods as immensely powerful beings.

- The Norn actually view the Gods as greater "Spirits of Action" that are on another level of existence to their Spirits of the Wild as they govern greater portfolios, "Spirit of War" for Balthazar/his replacement, for example. They don't think the Spirits of the Wild "do a better job at preserving the universe"(???)

- The Sylvari do know what a God is and it's frankly stupid they even considered the possibility the Gods didn't exist or were just stories of the humans when EVERY other race acknowledges the Gods as existing but regard them differently. They're not much of an authority of the subject and certainly doesn't make them "smarter" than humans in that regard.

The Gods are not 'false' under any stretch of the imagination, they are clearly unique, extremely powerful (As in, Can Beat the Elder Dragons if They Didn't Care about Tyria kind of powerful) magical beings that govern their own realms. That easily qualifies them for Godhood when we're talking about their nearest equivalents: Pantheon gods from historical real life religions (Greek/Roman) or D&D Gods. They are on that same level. That makes them Gods, this cannot be argued.

Hell, when ex-Gods are still powerful enough to take on Elder Dragons with a bit of juice, or break free of the restraints placed on them by one God (Balthazar and Dhuum) that should give you some idea of just what scale a God with all their powers is at.

People need to stop projecting their dislike of real world religion onto fantasy equivalents that are proven to very much exist and provide tangible benefits in the universe. The two are not the same.

ArenaNet too - It's blatantly obvious they're projecting a "religion is bad mkay" slant onto the Gods in Guild Wars and it really grinds my gears.

Also as another note, people REALLY need to get it into their heads: Balthazar, TECHNICALLY, was not a God during Path of Fire, his divinity was taken away, thus he is no longer a God.

HOWEVER, he was still CULTURALLY viewed as a God and likely Kormir being a previous human and even the other Gods being long time comrades of Balthazar can EASILY have a slip of the tongue and continue to refer to him as such because that's just a reflex, the same is true of any living being on Tyria. They're talking about Balthazar, therefore they refer to him as a God by reflex rather than it actually being true, because that's what they know him as.

Doesn't mean he is one.

Differentiate between in universe people's VIEWS of Balthazar (Aka, Balthazar is a God), and what is actually TECHNICALLY correct (Balthazar is NOT a God).

It's not that hard.

cantha is going to be a flooded wasteland thanks to our sea dragon friend.

can't have human fatigue after all

don't worry they have the rest of the gods to call up one by one to turn into "human" villains when they think we're suffering from dragon fatigue

It's crazy but that chunk of rock we appeared on in the middle of space/mists at the end of the previous episode I kinda thought could have been a remnant of the human home world. Will never be confirmed and is probably not but it could be cool.

I'm thinking at the moment that the reason the human home world exploded was because of a similar-but-not-entirely-the-same situation to the threat to Tyria with Elder Dragons dying. Except it was older gods dying that caused that world to decay and ultimately be destroyed. Balthazar's father could have been one of these "gods" but was killed by Balthazar in the closing moments of that world's destruction, hence why he arrived on Tyria carrying his father's head.

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> > Anyone who says the Elder Dragons are more interesting antagonists than actual people aka Joko, Lazarus and even Balthazar don't know what an interesting villain is.

> >

> > An interesting villain has motivations beyond "eat magic, get fat, sleep, wake up, eat magic, get fat, sleep" repeatedly.

> >

> > Joko's speech to the Commander in an example of this, what he says is, at the end of the day, true. It -was- monumentally stupid to kill two Elder Dragons and a God (Ex-God or not). And the reason he took credit for the Commander's deeds was simply because he would never do it himself. You'll never get an Elder Dragon holding up a mirror to the Commander in such a fashion. Mordremoth came close but we all know that kind of Elder Dragon won't be used again as Mordremoth's whole 'Mind' thing was part of his sphere, we won't be outright holding a conversation with any of the other Dragons I'm pretty sure.

> >

> > Actually, scratch previous statement, there was an interesting Elder Dragon: Mordremoth because, surprise surprise, he talked. Kralkatorrik is not as interesting as Mordremoth, Joko or Balthazar, sorry.

>

> Yeah, because "rawwwwrrrr, must kill dragons to steal their power" is the pinnacle of storytelling. Also "I was dumb enough to trust a fallen god who left me to rot in the Domain of the Lost, then you didn't help me so I'm using a biological weapon of mass destruction to eradicate your kind from the face of the planet". Talk about monumental stupidity. Oh, and that little speech he gave? Which part of it came as a surprise to you?

>

> Sorry, Kralkatorrik is more interesting than either of these. For one simple reason - we can't afford to kill him.

You're correct, "steal dragon power" would be just as bad. But it's not just that, the reasoning and the background behind it is also vastly more interesting, there is nothing else to "eat magic, sleep, wake up, repeat" that the dragons do. -Nothing-. It's a natural cycle. A natural disaster. Boring. Actual characters with motivations and reasons are more interesting - And definitely ones that actually have a point to what they are saying and what they are trying to do. A justification beyond "That's just how the world works bro".

Hence why all the humanoid enemies so far have been far more interesting than the Elder Dragons.

None of Joko's speech came as a surprise (Where did I say it was a surprise?) precisely because he's the first one in game to outright say to the Commander they are messing it up by killing the dragons and even an ex-God. Which is what everyone observing the story (us) has been saying this whole time. Actually seeing it given a voice and brought up in the story is nice. And one of the few saving graces of this episode.

So yeah, nice try, but strawman'ing my argument so you can try and counter it didn't work.

Anyone who says the Elder Dragons are more interesting antagonists than actual people aka Joko, Lazarus and even Balthazar don't know what an interesting villain is.

An interesting villain has motivations beyond "eat magic, get fat, sleep, wake up, eat magic, get fat, sleep" repeatedly.

Joko's speech to the Commander in an example of this, what he says is, at the end of the day, true. It -was- monumentally stupid to kill two Elder Dragons and a God (Ex-God or not). And the reason he took credit for the Commander's deeds was simply because he would never do it himself. You'll never get an Elder Dragon holding up a mirror to the Commander in such a fashion. Mordremoth came close but we all know that kind of Elder Dragon won't be used again as Mordremoth's whole 'Mind' thing was part of his sphere, we won't be outright holding a conversation with any of the other Dragons I'm pretty sure.

Actually, scratch previous statement, there was an interesting Elder Dragon: Mordremoth because, surprise surprise, he talked. Kralkatorrik is not as interesting as Mordremoth, Joko or Balthazar, sorry.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> > Also that illusion ring just being left there, it could have been Joko, but he also never made any mention of leaving anything to 'help' the Commander. Maybe planted there by someone else?

> If you hit a laser about 10 times, Joko gets annoyed and yells at the Commander to use the magical ring he left for him.

>

> The entire illusion trap was just a game for Joko. He never intended for the Commander to be stuck or even slowed (much) by it. It was just him trolling the Commander and getting laughs before a confrontation.

Thought so. Just thought it could have been a possibility. I didn't see it because I didn't fail that many times. :P

> I was able to write most of as the usual silliness of anet, but the whole "I died once, so I'm immune to the plague" stuff?

Now THIS I'm still chalking up to a bit of a God-meddling for human characters. As I said, it's oddly specific.

"Perhaps they'll finally thank me for luring you to me." or something along those lines

brace yourselves for gods being villains everyone

-joy-

That said, I agree with what Konig has said, I will however add that the Human Commander's immunity to the Scarab Plague after returning from the Realm of the Lost is interesting, and I'm just going to chalk it up to it being an actual blessing from Grenthy boy until it is proven otherwise, because it seems oddly specific.

Also that illusion ring just being left there, it could have been Joko, but he also never made any mention of leaving anything to 'help' the Commander. Maybe planted there by someone else?

My thoughts:

>! - Technically it's all very impressive. Cutscenes are much better, big battle scenes and numbers of mobs involved makes it feel like a big battle.

>!

>! - Story I'm fine with, I was originally a bit "eh" about the whole "no humans" thing but then they flipped that around by humans going "fuck it i don't care if i'm more likely to die i'm going in". Ending a bit anti-climactic but also predictable and well done.

>!

>! - Also. GHOSTS

>!

>! - Blood Legion actually show up, no talking roles but that's interesting.

>!

>! - Human commander being immune to the scarabs because of the Domain of the Lost shenanigins I really actually quite liked. Good reason, well handled. Adds a bit of mystery. Could be intentional or an accident, prefer to think intentional. (Grenth best god)

>!

>! - It's not explicitly stated but that ring just lying where it was to be picked up was a bit "hmm" to me, I prefer to think it was planted there.

>!

>! - I dislike Gorrik intensely and want to punch him in the face, the start of the episode was the weakest of them all given Gorrik being insufferable and the general dismissive attitude to Amnoon's quite understandable reaction to his experiments

>!

>! - Joko's speech to the Commander was well done and also quite poignant. It WAS monumentally stupid to kill two dragons and a god, though of course there was no choice but to do that. Weird comment from Joko with "Maybe they'll be thankful I've finally lured you to me" or something but I'm writing it off that it's just Joko being Joko

>!

>! - Hints that eating Balthazar's magic has effected both Kralk and Aurene beyond simple power. Makes sense, even without divine energy that made him a god he was still a primal magical being beyond anything on Tyria. But they are ALSO still referring to him instead of just forgetting he existed which is good

> I could see it being justified if divine energies aren't merely elemental, but personal. That is, if the end of PoF didn't just result in Kraalkatorik chowing down on Bloodstone, Fire, and Ice magic, but also Aggressive Megalomaniac magic, or at least War/Conflict magic.

Kralkatorrik did not absorb Divine energies from Balthazar. The whole point of Balthazar absorbing Elder Dragon energy was to replace the Divine energy he lost to the other Gods, with extra.

At the moment the story is focused on Elona and to a lesser extent the Gods. So it's perfectly acceptable at the moment that humans are in the forefront. Now if they were suddenly in the forefront when it comes to the Jormag expansion I would be scratching my head, but for now I think the attention given to the humans is justified.

There needs to be a substantial (positive) narrative pay-off for the the humans and the Gods in the story, rather than that thread being left hanging. When that comes, I'll be content when the story shifts focus to other races more often.

I still think Orr would have been able to fend off the Charr if it hadn't been sunk. *Shrug*

And ghosts. And Branded. And humans in history. Also unable to take Ebonhawke after 200 years of constant siege.

Ehm. You'd still be wrong, but hey-

And by what measure do Charr dominate their lands whilst Humans do not dominate theirs? The Charr do not have absolute dominion over their territory as is abundantly clear. Neither of them do.

will ultimatly survive because they can scurry and hide in a multitude of holes until danger passes.

What? Humans haven't ever done that as a default.

The lack of concrete answers on the Gods makes me think we haven't seen the last of them.

"b-but flame legion..." Doesn't work as a counterpoint to the charr being conquerors and aggressors. The Legions kept up the assault on Ebonhawke after Flame Legion influence in their affairs was ended and they still made an attempt on Kryta and Orr both, which definitely weren't "ancient charr lands". If it had all been about reclaiming Ascalon then the """good""" (if the Flame Legion were the only reason behind their aggressive behaviour as using them as an excuse for it intends) charr would have objected, and rebelled earlier, no? But they did not.

Put bluntly, the charr did not rebel against the Flame Legion because they disagreed with invading human kingdoms, they rebelled because the Flame Legion was hurting them personally. They likely couldn't give a toss about what the Flame Legion did to humans, because they often did exactly the same thing.