Azure The Heartless.3261

> @"snoow.1694" said:

> Rev OP for 6 years

You must have missed the part where revs were so weak taking one in ranked got you laughed at/hate spammed for throwing.

This Rev OP discussion started with the buff to Mallyx that was quickly whittled down, and now has resurfaced with changes to sword/shortbow. Carry on though.

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > @"Shao.7236" said:

> > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > >Confusion (scepter+staff) = [(0.0975*1200) +49.5] * average of 7 stacks = 1165.5 confusion dmg per second

> >

> > What?

>

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Confusing_Images

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chaos_Armor

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magic_Bullet

>

You might want to recheck that.

> @"Shao.7236" said:

> It's not the devs fault if everyone decides to play things that exceed at long ranges while anyone else that complains actually be playing stuff that exceeds at close range.

> Being on open terrain is just as relative and part of the gameplay like using terrain to obstruct skills.

Underrated comment. LoS shamelessly.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"GewRoo.4172" said:

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > > in my mind it was always a downside to the skill, that weights against how kitten OP the rest of it is.

> > > >

> > > > LR is no different than any other skill that functions exactly like it, of which there are many. But none of the others have a rando damage proc to ruin the skill usage.

> > > >

> > > > Also, we aren't talking a "downside" here. We are talking about complete neutralization of the skill vs. passive CCs, as if you had only brought 2 utilities into the match rather than 3. No other skill in the game has such a busted fundamental behind its mechanic.

> > >

> > > what other skills?

> > > this removes stuns with almost no cooldown, creates massive distance evades and gives vigor, no other skill comes to mind that is even close to that value

> >

> > Roll for Initiative, Riposting Shadows are similar in some way. I am with you OP. You are a lunatic tho.

>

> exactly my point?

> 30s cd vs 50s cd, massive difference

> 30s cd vs 40s cd, massive difference

> more over you always take cd reduction trait so realistically its 24s cd.

> untraited roll has more then twice the cooldown bruh

>

> edit there is also twist of fate, 75s cd vs 30s

> the CLOSEST thing I can think of is sand through glass, but that skill is just not right for use, undeveloped per say

I'm in agreement with this tbh.

Understand what you're saying Trevor, but all I can see is the 24-30 second stunbreak paired with vigor and all thoughts of buffing it go out the window.

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> WvW

I'd also like to remind people that WvW classes being boosted is a different beast entirely. Classes being boosted in WvW should not be used to push changes in sPvP. I am sure there are nightmares there the likes of which I have not experienced.

I don't buy this thread.

Granted, lich auto needs a damage shave so that it isn't an "I Win" button like old rampage was for anyone without blocks. The damage needs to be spread out among the other skills that are slower to cast and easier to dodge, and the cooldown for Lich needs to be adjusted to be quicker to compensate since Lich is necro's major access to stability right now.

Reaper **absolutely should** blend you like mincemeat if you are within range of it. Given the fact they are incredibly vulnerable to cc and most of their damage output requires you to be in hugging distance (which many classes can simply opt out of if they so desire), I don't think people should be evaluating how hard/how fast they get hit when they are in range compared to the actions they took that got them there with no escape/safeguard.

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> **Core Necro**

> The build has increasingly become and issue , **not properly addressed for the last 1.5 years** introduced during Dec 2018, around 70% of what has been introduced in that patch.....**has been nerfed to the ground**, the main problem here is that everything since that patch has been steadily declining while necro has been mostly left untouched since then.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by this? I don't think any part of this is true.

> The class has not seen any "groundbreaking nerf" for almost 2 years, mostly "slaps on the wrist" for scourge but other than that **necros get to play with all 2 elites plus core class**, most professions can't count themselves as lucky..and I wonder why......

This isn't true, in particular. Multiple times over the course of the game, Necro has seen global cooldown increases for spectrals and wells, because of attempted reworks being heavily nerfed almost immediately after they went live that had come coupled with cooldown increases since those reworks removed traits that reduced Cds. Their signet rework was also a heavy nerf. Necros just didn't whine hard about it (probably because they're used to getting what feels like bait-and-switch balancing) so nobody noticed.

Scourge was **absolutely obliterated** in pvp. Even with the shade (re)rework it's still kinda trash.

> P.S Dear devs you have proven to be more than capable of removing PvP gear to affect specific professions : **Rune of Durability, toughness amulets, concentration amulets etc etc**...it should be no issue at this point to remove **Runes of Speed** to affect Necro ever increasing mobility.

Rune of speed is one of the only things preventing players with access to superspeed, ports, long distance leaps, and in some cases stealth from bullying necromancer entirely, and other classes can benefit from that rune, so in your effort to nerf Necro you limit build variety further. I wouldn't go this route either.

If necro gets mobility/quickness shaves, they're going to need their stunbreaks and stability traits back. Making them slower and also punishing them against people who can land cc would be overkill. Lich form needs a look, sure; but outside of that they're fair. The devs are aware they need quickness to cram their damage in while in shroud, that's why they gave them more of it on landing fear.

Desync war is meta

> @"medivh.4725" said:

> You need to stop making super far respawn points for Story, stop sensitive red zone kicking players from accidentally stepping into, it freaking restart the whole story all over again. And stop squeezing like 15-18 sub missions into 1 bloody chapter, once player is struck gamer needs do these 15-17 sub mission ALL OVER, and it ain't fun.

>

> Lets not forget your story mode is bugs ridden, easily progress is struck because of a unkillable villian, or character get struck, an event that don't trigger, or something like that. Easily 45 minutes of rework for the gamer. How is that fun

>

> Stop packing 20 over mini task into 1 chapter. OMG. I think you can do a secondary buffer to warn. Instead of straight kick. Sometime a player just fell into a awkward gap and cannot get back - for that to do it all over just makes people want to delete the game all together. You feeling the frustration yet?

Well played.

> @"c u again.3267" said:

> absolutely nothing will change, good job not touching decap scrapper/core guardian lol. another patch that makes the game more braindead

They literally did both of these though.

> @"Bast.7253" said:

> NEITHER one would say what their build was

**They're learning.**

> @"Widmo.3186" said:

> 2020 and I see a video of a guy spamming HS and using HiS.

> 

Is the point wrong though? A large portion of people playing in pvp don't care about playing braindead as long as it works.

Still wish thief could sidenode/1v1 without losing point control.

> @"Broady.2358" said:

> Thief is trash, please buff.... ;)

>

>

More video like this in these forums pls.

[ **Has been playing Power Berserker this entire time with little to no issues** ]

Only thing they need to fix is headbutt doing 4.5 damage if you eat stability to use it, and probably a very slight damage increase to bursts associated with berserker.. Give it a standalone damage modifier for headbutt that consumes stability. Core and Spellbreaker are fine.

A surprising amount of people want oneshot metas back when prior to the last patch warriors had to be on here constantly defending why they could Arcing you for 11k. Ever since that patch I have gotten absolutely no whine from people getting wiped. I'd like it to stay that way. If it means I need to just play better, so be it lmao.

> @"Noah Salazar.5430" said:

> "ppl in pvp coming to "fight" not to care about points"

> silver rank player said at gold+1diamond team vs team full of diamond and 1+100rank

F in the chat

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> You know what, on a different note, here is a list of class balance commentary:

>

> * War - Should stay the same as it is now. It's in a good place balance wise/feel wise.

> * Spellbreaker - Same as War. If it weren't for OP classes, Spellbreaker feels good to play and play against.

> * Guard - Needs either a damage or sustain shave. Should stay the way it is other than that. It feels good to play right now.

> * Dragonhunter - I feel like it's balanced nowadays, but underused due to presence of broken classes. Though it isn't in a sweet spot.

> * Firebrand - It's right where it should be for once. Leave it alone.

> * Herald - Needs a decrese in its teleportation frequency and it would be balanced. Leave it as is.

> * Renegade - Feels balanced at times. Other times I feel like Kalla needs reviewing. I don't know Ren enough to really comment.

> * Engi - Only reason it's not being used is due to how strong Scrapper/Holo are right now. Wouldn't say it's in a sweet spot though.

> * Scrapper - Balanced. It would see a lot more play if it weren't for other super specs.

> * Thief - Balanced outside of Deadly Arts line as usual. Leave everything else alone.

> * Daredevil - Balanced. Leave it alone.

> * Ranger - Balanced. Leave it alone. Some would say it fell out, but that's only because of the presence of OP things. If those things were nerfed, Ranger would be sitting in a nice sweet spot. Even the way core ranger plays right now, is how it should have always felt.

> * Druid - In a bad place. See the link in my signature about Druid competitive suggestions.

> * Mes - Balanced if in a world without god tier specs. It actually feels good to play at this point. Leave it alone, nerf the out of control specs.

> * Chrono - ^ same as Mes

> * Ele - Kind of weak tbh. Tempest & Weaver provide really really powerful mechanics that Ele simply does not have access to.

> * Weaver - These are actually really strong right now and I'm not really sure why I don't see them being used more often. I suppose it's because "Why roll Weaver when you could roll Tempest Aura Share?" But Weaver is on the verge of being OP if other things were to be nerfed.

> * Tempest - Shocking Aura seriously needs to be heavily nerfed. The CC could be changed to a 1/2 daze and it would be functional. It does not need to be a 1s stun for such a ridiculously persistent passive effect.

> * Scourge - Exactly where it should be. Leave it as is.

I was about to make a thread about this but it seems we share the same opinions apart from a few. Assume I agree if I haven't touched it below:

> * Deadeye - 1/2 a step away from no longer playable. If you don't want to give it back its damage, give it some passive sustain that comes from DE trait line abilities so it's at least playable in spvp.

Generally speaking, the further away a thief is from you, the less damage it should do. If anything is done to their damage, it should scale based on their distance to the target, be in exchange for their roll on stealth passive, or otherwise require that they commit to a kill, either through an initiative increase or otherwise.

I'm fine with this being exactly where it is. Its whole premise is based around +1ing from an area that is hard to access by their targets. Allowing them to do high damage from far away and then also run when someone makes it to them is a recipe for trouble.

Maybe, instead, we can give them increased stealth duration as long as they are not in combat, so they can set up on perches/boxes without having to burn their resources as much?

> * Berserker - It's actually not bad in the absence of the current OP classes. Don't feel like it's sitting in a cherry spot though.

Not sitting in a cherry spot is an adequate description. i can't complain much now that mending is also a cleanse, but it's still a bit more arduous than just running warrior. If I had slightly more damage on Burst skills (And maybe a bit more access to adrenaline baked in to the traitline? On hit/while in combat/while under HP?) , I'd be perfectly happy playing this. It's hard to chase or go toe to toe with other close range classes without being outmatched, especially if they can pump out blind or chill.

> * Soulbeast - Balanced. Leave it alone. If the god tier specs were nerfed, Soulbeast would be sitting in a sweet spot. And aside from what many people may say, I actually agree with the no pet swap drawback.

I think there are some damage modifiers that need to be adjusted here still. They're niche and do not often see play, though.

> * Rev - Never see it in play, no idea

It's... okay. They removed a lot of the resistance on corruption line, but echo now procs Jalis properly, so you can mitigate condibombs. mallyx could use a little buffing though. It's punishing to play compared to the other specs.

> * Mirage - **Needs its 2nd dodge back** and compensation for losing expertise stat.

**No it doesn't.** I am still seeing strong mirage plays, even with the one dodge metric.. If we are going to buff mirage, we can do so in terms of damage modifiers tied to specifically that line, or by looking at how we can give them a little more defense against thieves, but this solution isn't what I'd look at.

> * Necro - Kind of fell out but you know what? It's where it should be for a core spec. Though I do have to say that Vampiric Rituals needs to be put right back where it once was. It was a bad idea to remove that trait and tinker with wells. It removed an entire category of niche builds that many people really enjoyed the feel of.

> * Reaper - Too strong right now. Though I feel like this is more of a symptom of the disease that is Tempest Shocking Aura Share. The Reaper became super OP when he's running around with Shocking Aura all of the time in team fights. That's pretty much exactly what happened. If Shock Aura was nerfed, leave Reaper as is. It's in a good place.

They also need to do the same for spectral lines AND signets. This has become a running theme for nerfing Necro. They buff skills and remove the traits, then nerf the skills to worse than they were AND leave the traits nerfed. Necro needs to be looked at to get those niche builds returned.

RE: Reaper, I'm fine with it being as strong as it is. you cant blame reaper for being op synced with shocking aura.

Lich needs to have auto toned down and a mild CD reduction as compensation though. (Also, the other elites need to be buffed. Lich is the only good core elite they have.)

> * Holo - It's packing way too much after flashbang. Imo forge needs to go to a 9s CD and flashbang needs to be removed.

No to forge, yes to flashbang. At the very least an ICD of 10 seconds needs to be added to it. Forge is fine as is.

> Just my opinions.

> ##I feel like if the actual problems were addressed next time around rather than a stir the bucket approach, we'd have a good balanced meta on our hands.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is important. For all the whine on the forums, it is important to note two things:

**Damage still exists. It is still entirely possible to melt players running glass, healing power fueled, or bruiser specs if you run a glass spec.**

**People seem to be, instead of opting for damage specs, insulating their builds as much as possible, because easily memorized combos that reduce hp from 100 to 0 without needing to account for the players responding to their burst have largely been toned down. I think that's more an issue with mentality than balance.**

I thiiink we can work with what we have at the moment. The next patches will need to be surgical though.

> @"snoow.1694" said:

> It happens surprisingly often in ranked that 2 people spend around 30 to 60 seconds of time 2v1‘ing an opponent, which results in the loss of all the other points when 1 person would have been enough to get the job done

This and the title are not the same thing, but I still agree with your point.

The difference between 10% and downstate is only a fraction of a second to a couple of seconds, but I'd leave before down if I was not **constantly plagued by getting a player in a 2v1 to 10% and thinking my teammate has it, only for them to lose both the fight and the point when I move somewhere else. **

That being said, if you're 2v1ing someone for 30-60 seconds, you're being baited while your team gets steamrolled. Don't do that. If you can't instamelt someone 2v1 under 30 seconds, chances are:

* That enemy is a bunker designed to waste time.

* Your teammate will be just fine contesting that point and not dying without your help since most bunkers have garbo damage output.

???

> @"huluobo.7036" said:

> The white capture points is only effective when encountering stupid opponents.

> As long as the old players know the rules, the white capture points will not work, which is equivalent to helping the opponent

> @"RedAvenged.5217" said:

>must be memeing.

> @"Tharan.9085" said:

> it's interesting how many ppl think this post is serious

yes

/15charrs

[Drinking a cup of serotonin while looking dispassionately at 5 pages of discussion about who wins a foot race between shadowstep/shortbow thief and anything]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

>Well more accurately its the people who enjoy moving around the map and being in the right place at the right time. And who am I to say that enjoying that isnt valid.

Fair point, but there are several classes that can build for swiftness stacking/moving fast that should also be allowed to play this way. Moving around the map/being available for +1 is not and should not be encouraged to be a "thief only" thing.

> I cant say Im happy with it, but here is my logic. If you want a thief-like duelist, you do have other options. Revenant for example. But the pure map movement playstyle? Thief is the only one that really does that. And I cant really justify removing a playstyle.

So be it. If the point of thief is __specifically__ that pure map movement playstyle and nothing else, then I guess any balancing for damage + is off the table and you should play something else that actually has the damage.

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > This whole thread is multiple flavors of "Thief should not be able to play the game because of that one shortbow skill." I'd be upset if I had any emotional investment left in this.

> >

> > Let's say Infiltrator's arrow cost 12 init and also gave swiftness for 12 seconds upon use. Would thieves be allowed to make duelist specs then, or are we going to fall back on "but stealth" ?

> >

> >

> Yes. Theyd need those probably, too. Cant imagine why anyone would pick thief otherwise, if infiltrators arrow was nerfed that hard. But then people who enjoy the current playstyle of thief would lose their playstyle. Im not sure you can really justify that.

The only people enjoying the playstyle of thief right now are the people using the condi build (paired with shortbow so they can escape) and the people who enjoy decapping.

I'm probably jaded, but if the entire balancing of a class has to suffer because one skill on one weapon out of.... six weapons and their variations merely _exists as an option_ , I'm not willing to accept that.

Either reward thief specifically for -not- taking shortbow on one of their core lines, like trickery, or nuke infiltrator's arrow and heavily buff all their weapons so they can commit to a fight and win it. I'm tired of seeing pages of pages of forums explaining to me why I can't 1v1/sidenode because I picked the wrong class to pvp on.

I'm sure some other class would like to be meta decap bot for a bit and get their dps shaved because they're good at it. Probably Holosmith. Because rocket boots or something.

This whole thread is multiple flavors of "Thief should not be able to play the game because of that one shortbow skill." I'd be upset if I had any emotional investment left in this.

Let's say, hypothetically, Infiltrator's arrow cost 12 init and also gave swiftness for 12 seconds upon use. Would thieves be allowed to make duelist specs then, or are we going to fall back on "but stealth" ?

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

>**The skills team needs to remove the evade off vault to make it a good weapon in PvP**, it'll always be trash until they do that as that skill being an evade holds the weapon back forever in PvP.

I need a cup of serotonin.

I'm almost glad the balance team doesn't pay attention to these forums as much as people think they should.

No.

> @"Henry.5713" said:

> I'd much rather get kicked from groups based on actual underperformances of mine than having it based on something as silly as my amount of AP (which happened in the good old dungeon days)

> People will judge and kick you no matter the tools avaible to them and others will continue to prefer safe runs to not waste their time even without Arc.

Being able to see a physical reflection of how much work I'm putting in is much less nebulous than "Ping Gear" "Ping Build" "AP Check" "Currency Check".

If someone wants to rate you based on the above things, what they're really saying is they don't want to waste time potentially carrying you through the content. Making it a breach of ToS to evaluate whether they want to do a run with you based on what IMO is the easiest factor to change/adjust will not suddenly make these people throw up their hands and go "Oh, guess we shouldn't evaluate based on any metric then."

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> I main thief. I think daggerstorm is unfun to fight and too simple and effective to use.'

Easy there, it's a 3 second evade, not a build or game winner.

> @"Babylon.8972" said:

> > @"zarcon.7820" said:

> > All thiefs elite skills are super bad

>

> Every other class have even 1 decent useful elite, but thief have 0. Just joke tier elites. I would pay a lot to swap my elites with engineer.

Not true. Every elite Thief has except for uppercut is good/viable, even thieves guild. Uppercut isn't even **bad**, it's just too situational as it stands to be as viable as the others.

That being said-

> @"Babylon.8972" said:

> > @"LazySummer.2568" said:

> > all these terribad thieves should just come clean and say they need a nuke button that'll auto win the game for them when pressed, usable pre-match.

>

> This post was made by

> -rev

> -holo

> -necro

This is true.

> @"Blocki.4931" said:

> I'm in tears over this.

> The spell that more often than not misses because of blinds or people either not procing it or from a distance, that deals 0 damage, is too op because it dazes for two seconds.

Expected. No matter how nerfed you make skills, there's always going to be people walking into a door that says "pull" and blaming the door for not opening when they push it.

> @"KrHome.1920" said:

> Not just that: about a spellbreaker. The easiest of the 3 warrior specs to deal with for a thief, because it deals the least amount of damage of the warrior specs.

Not true. Spellbreaker's the hardest. vs Zerker and Core they generally do better. Even so, Spellbreaker has its own weaknesses to thief, and as long as you're not eating Level 1s or getting magebane attached to you you should win that fight, especially if you have an offhand pistol.

It doesn't matter how much damage you do vs thief. Most thieves die to sneezes so getting hit by anything is equally dangerous. It's much easier to blind zerker/war and reposition vs those two though.