Noodle Ant.1605

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > 1. The best way to play power mirage atm is to play like a neutered version of core power mesmer. Core and co. can’t be buffed cuz there’s a stupid >40k raid pchrono flying around while almost every other power mes build (inclu. not-raid pchrono) is <32k. You will want to buff core as well cuz -

> > 2. pMirage currently sits at ~24k. To buff just mirage to worthwhile dps means having a trait(s) that somehow increases dmg by 60%+ (note 10% of the ~24k is CONDI). Don’t think Anet will do that. Also, cannot buff cmirage.

> > 3. Sword ambush will never be worth unless it does 3x as much dmg as now, even then sigil of energy is not worth on power, so it would need to do 5x as much. Atm it’s a meme/dps loss, only useful for cc.

> > 4. Power has much less benefit for leaving clones around, clone ambush dmg needs to be OP to also compensate delaying F1 (it has no ammo on pmirage).

> >

> > tl;dr: imo pmirage is doomed to fail as it relies/plays too similarly to core pmes, which is stuck in trash tier cuz reasons.

>

> still waiting for chronophantasma nerf so anything other then chrono can be pve playable zzzZZzzzz

???

chronophantasma afaik is far away from the problem.

> every other power mes build (**inclu. not-raid pchrono**) is <32k.

so:

- raid (DT) pchrono: 40k

- not-raid pchrono: ~31k

- core pmes: ~28k

- pmirage: ~24k

step 1: do something about danger time. replace the +15% crit chance into core (dueling) under more reasonable conditions (not SLOW)

- raid (DT) pchrono: doesn't need to exist

- ~~not-raid~~ pchrono: ~34k

- core pmes: ~31k

- pmirage: ~26k

step 2: update fencers finesse, maybe reduce 1s cast times - i.e SoE, iswordsman, idisenchanter, (idefender just cuz) apparently comparatively useless in pvp so why not

- ~~not-raid~~ pchrono: ~37k

- core pmes: ~34k

- pmirage: ~29k

step 3: buff (power) mirage by 25% thru w/e combination of changes (vicious expression v.1 lol)

- ~~not-raid~~ pchrono: ~37k

- core pmes: ~34k

- pmirage: ~36k, close enough

(also put the +x power into bountiful blades so gs is worthwhile)

???

profit

but anet doesn't listen so :grimace:.

1. The best way to play power mirage atm is to play like a neutered version of core power mesmer. Core and co. can’t be buffed cuz there’s a stupid >40k raid pchrono flying around while almost every other power mes build (inclu. not-raid pchrono) is <32k. You will want to buff core as well cuz -

2. pMirage currently sits at ~24k. To buff just mirage to worthwhile dps means having a trait(s) that somehow increases dmg by 60%+ (note 10% of the ~24k is CONDI). Don’t think Anet will do that. Also, cannot buff cmirage.

3. Sword ambush will never be worth unless it does 3x as much dmg as now, even then sigil of energy is not worth on power, so it would need to do 5x as much. Atm it’s a meme/dps loss, only useful for cc.

4. Power has much less benefit for leaving clones around, clone ambush dmg needs to be OP to also compensate delaying F1 (it has no ammo on pmirage).

tl;dr: imo pmirage is doomed to fail as it relies/plays too similarly to core pmes, which is stuck in trash tier cuz reasons.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > Unless you have a dedicated casual fractal group, I wouldn't take condi mirage into fractals. Condi mirage has a slow ramp up, and has difficulty applying conditions in an AoE. If everyone else in your group is running power, you won't be able to ramp up before enemies die or bosses phase. Overall, this means that the condi mirage is only good in fractals if your group isn't that good.

>

> not true, as long as you are OK at mirage you will do as much damage as others or more.

> only place cmirage is weak in fractals is with hardcore, BiS full Meta comps.

> But if thats the case they can 4man the fractal anyways lol, and for CMs, mirage is ok too!.

> you wont top dps chart usually but you are really safe most of the time ( unless axe 3 trolls PepeHands )

>

> EDIT.

> Im not saying its the best, but I have been using Cmirage with axe through t1 all the way to t4 and CM and most of the time topped the DPS charts.

> Super safe due to ALOT of evades, and good aoe for clear.

> Best of groups would do better with power chrono but axe mirage aint bad.

tbh mesmer power doesn’t fare much better, chronoburst practically always misses breakbar, procs OWP 2/16 possible times and by the time it’s finished (if it even gets that far?) a competent cmirage would’ve stacked enough confusion to make its dps afterwards jelly.

All forms of mesmer are kinda meh in ‘that level’ of fracs so I guess it doesn’t really matter much there :confused:.

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > Tiny issue, you did not actually notate what *any* of those multipliers you wrote down are. Also, your formula comes out to 5537 damage, not 1918. Plus, if I had to guess, Id say that you included several multipliers that werent actually applying. Remember, the damage from Mug does not benefit from any of the other things Steal applies, they happen at the same time.

> > > > >

> > > > > Edit: for the sake of clarity, my assumption is 1.07 is weakening strikes, 1.06 (which he wrote as 1.02\*3) is exposed weakness, 1.15 probably is bounding dodger, the 2 1.05 ones however are a mystery. I suspect one is Scholars that he applied again despite me explaining that 1334 is *with* scholars active. 1.07, 1.06 both do not apply, as the Mug damage does not get amped by the conditions swipe applies. Though, even if it *did* apply, given that its impossible to have Mug without those active, they would be included in 1334 anyway.

> > > >

> > > > Just to tie up loose ends, if you knew what was available on thief (I intentionally left it blank so you could prove yourself) you’d eventually figure out the two mystery 1.05 is from havoc specialist (why would he run anything else), more than 1 dodge bar is missing for a reason. Maybe it would’ve been easier to solve if I left it as (1.05 ^ 2) but I would’ve made a typo anyway cuz I was sleepy (and now there is a giant gap from the relevant comments)

> > > >

> > >

> > > Thats ... not how it works. Its additive with itself. Its not 1.05\*1.05. Its 1.10.

> > >

> > > > Yes (1.02 * 3) is typo, it’s (1.02 ^ 3), where I assumed 3 because there would have been 3 guaranteed condis - poison, weakness, vuln. A number of condi applying skills apply condis first and then deal dmg, but anet doesn’t let us know what they are/if they do. Regardless, you can get rid of this and try replace it with the ??? might stacks he has (note he has 5 but at 1/3 duration when the last stack was applied). Where’d this might come from? It is viable? Don’t ask me, I don’t pvp/play thief.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Thats ... also not how it works. Its 1.06, not 1.02^3. And as I said, this doesnt apply. *If* it did, it wouldve been included in my 1334, but it doesnt anyway. The Might stacks are from the backstab. Even the Odds specifically applies 5 stacks of might when a stealth attack hits. The Swipe hit before the backstab. The might didnt apply to it. So, no.

> > >

> > > > All the mods I used (besides exposed weakness which can be replaced with might anyway) *can line up, and it looks like it did* just by looking at the dodge bar - he emptied all his dodges for 1.15 * 1.05 * 1.05, dodging applies weakness on next attack (1.07, *maybe activated by the black powder?*) and just that is already enough to bring 1334 to 1810, so maybe ‘1935’ isn’t so much of a fabrication after all.

> > > >

> > >

> > > They don't. To fix your equation real quick, it would be 1334\*1.1\*1.15=1687. Which is *far* away from 1935. Though I should give a bit of a spoiler here, I do know how he did it. Its quite simple, and while its not as insidious as stacking might/vulnerability, removing the Mesmers armour or whatever he did for the Shadowshot screenshot, it does involve creating a scenario that inaccurately represents the damage. But you seem to enjoy the math, so Ill just give you a hint. There are only 3 extra damage modifiers applied. Exposed Weakness and Weakening Strikes are not amongst them.

> >

> > There's no point anymore, I just went in-game, dodged 3 times > assassin's signet > black powder > swipe = got 1684 against light armor golem.

> >

> > 1684 * 2185 = 3679540 (light armor golem has 2185 armor)

> > 3679540 / 1920 = 1916

> >

> > Now I have, what did you call it? - *in-game evidence along with infallible math to support it*, there is no reason to further this baseless argument.

> >

> > Edit: I removed black powder, got 1619. End result = 1842.

>

> Actually, dodging 3 times is unneccessary. Its much simpler than that. He used Executioner. Which is why its a scenario that inaccurately represents the damage, because executioner requires the target to be below 50%, at which point its not a oneshot anymore. I didnt even apply Superiority complex's second part to the second half of Mesmers burst, certainly not to its entirety of it.

>

> Anyway, for completeness sake, its 1334\*1.2\*1.05\*1.15=1933. I assume the difference of 2 damage is down to rounding errors. Much closer, and Mug is in fact static now as opposed to the dual weild skills that seem to still have varying damage.

Dude I don't play thief, but even I can tell he's running improvisation. My evidence just proved that he didn't need executioner at all, only just a few more might stacks.

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > Tiny issue, you did not actually notate what *any* of those multipliers you wrote down are. Also, your formula comes out to 5537 damage, not 1918. Plus, if I had to guess, Id say that you included several multipliers that werent actually applying. Remember, the damage from Mug does not benefit from any of the other things Steal applies, they happen at the same time.

> > >

> > > Edit: for the sake of clarity, my assumption is 1.07 is weakening strikes, 1.06 (which he wrote as 1.02\*3) is exposed weakness, 1.15 probably is bounding dodger, the 2 1.05 ones however are a mystery. I suspect one is Scholars that he applied again despite me explaining that 1334 is *with* scholars active. 1.07, 1.06 both do not apply, as the Mug damage does not get amped by the conditions swipe applies. Though, even if it *did* apply, given that its impossible to have Mug without those active, they would be included in 1334 anyway.

> >

> > Just to tie up loose ends, if you knew what was available on thief (I intentionally left it blank so you could prove yourself) you’d eventually figure out the two mystery 1.05 is from havoc specialist (why would he run anything else), more than 1 dodge bar is missing for a reason. Maybe it would’ve been easier to solve if I left it as (1.05 ^ 2) but I would’ve made a typo anyway cuz I was sleepy (and now there is a giant gap from the relevant comments)

> >

>

> Thats ... not how it works. Its additive with itself. Its not 1.05\*1.05. Its 1.10.

>

> > Yes (1.02 * 3) is typo, it’s (1.02 ^ 3), where I assumed 3 because there would have been 3 guaranteed condis - poison, weakness, vuln. A number of condi applying skills apply condis first and then deal dmg, but anet doesn’t let us know what they are/if they do. Regardless, you can get rid of this and try replace it with the ??? might stacks he has (note he has 5 but at 1/3 duration when the last stack was applied). Where’d this might come from? It is viable? Don’t ask me, I don’t pvp/play thief.

> >

>

> Thats ... also not how it works. Its 1.06, not 1.02^3. And as I said, this doesnt apply. *If* it did, it wouldve been included in my 1334, but it doesnt anyway. The Might stacks are from the backstab. Even the Odds specifically applies 5 stacks of might when a stealth attack hits. The Swipe hit before the backstab. The might didnt apply to it. So, no.

>

> > All the mods I used (besides exposed weakness which can be replaced with might anyway) *can line up, and it looks like it did* just by looking at the dodge bar - he emptied all his dodges for 1.15 * 1.05 * 1.05, dodging applies weakness on next attack (1.07, *maybe activated by the black powder?*) and just that is already enough to bring 1334 to 1810, so maybe ‘1935’ isn’t so much of a fabrication after all.

> >

>

> They don't. To fix your equation real quick, it would be 1334\*1.1\*1.15=1687. Which is *far* away from 1935. Though I should give a bit of a spoiler here, I do know how he did it. Its quite simple, and while its not as insidious as stacking might/vulnerability, removing the Mesmers armour or whatever he did for the Shadowshot screenshot, it does involve creating a scenario that inaccurately represents the damage. But you seem to enjoy the math, so Ill just give you a hint. There are only 3 extra damage modifiers applied. Exposed Weakness and Weakening Strikes are not amongst them.

There's no point anymore, I just went in-game, dodged 3 times > assassin's signet > black powder > swipe = got 1684 against light armor golem.

1684 * 2185 = 3679540 (light armor golem has 2185 armor)

3679540 / 1920 = 1916

Now I have, what did you call it? - *in-game evidence along with infallible math to support it*, there is no reason to further this baseless argument.

Edit: I removed black powder, got 1619. End result = 1842.

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> Tiny issue, you did not actually notate what *any* of those multipliers you wrote down are. Also, your formula comes out to 5537 damage, not 1918. Plus, if I had to guess, Id say that you included several multipliers that werent actually applying. Remember, the damage from Mug does not benefit from any of the other things Steal applies, they happen at the same time.

>

> Edit: for the sake of clarity, my assumption is 1.07 is weakening strikes, 1.06 (which he wrote as 1.02\*3) is exposed weakness, 1.15 probably is bounding dodger, the 2 1.05 ones however are a mystery. I suspect one is Scholars that he applied again despite me explaining that 1334 is *with* scholars active. 1.07, 1.06 both do not apply, as the Mug damage does not get amped by the conditions swipe applies. Though, even if it *did* apply, given that its impossible to have Mug without those active, they would be included in 1334 anyway.

Just to tie up loose ends, if you knew what was available on thief (I intentionally left it blank so you could prove yourself) you’d eventually figure out the two mystery 1.05 is from havoc specialist (why would he run anything else), more than 1 dodge bar is missing for a reason. Maybe it would’ve been easier to solve if I left it as (1.05 ^ 2) but I would’ve made a typo anyway cuz I was sleepy (and now there is a giant gap from the relevant comments)

Yes (1.02 * 3) is typo, it’s (1.02 ^ 3), where I assumed 3 because there would have been 3 guaranteed condis - poison, weakness, ~~vuln~~ blind. A number of condi applying skills apply condis first and then deal dmg, but anet doesn’t let us know what they are/if they do. Regardless, you can get rid of this and try replace it with the ??? might stacks he has (note he has 5 but at 1/3 duration when the last stack was applied). Where’d this might come from? It is viable? Don’t ask me, I don’t pvp/play thief.

All the mods I used (besides exposed weakness which can be replaced with might anyway) *can line up, and it looks like it did* just by looking at the dodge bar - he emptied all his dodges for 1.15 * 1.05 * 1.05, dodging applies weakness on next attack (1.07, *maybe activated by the black powder?*) and just that is already enough to bring 1334 to 1810, so maybe ‘1935’ isn’t so much of a fabrication after all.

Mystery solved!

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> Mug, with Scholars active and activated Assassins Signet, does 1334 damage to a light armoured class with no extra toughness... So how did you get 1935, hm?

I applied math.

1334 * 1.15 * 1.07 * 1.05 * 1.05 * (1.02*3) = 1918 (close enough, didn’t calculate any might/vuln).

Don’t reply to me, I shouldn’t be here at all but I wanted to do math (and solve the puzzle). The evidence, apart from the 3 (an assumption), can all be found in the picture.

The main difficulty comes from the instabs, especially ones which buff the mobs. This is most applicable in T4 where there are 3 different instabs, as basically RNG is dictating how bad it wants to make your day. It doesn't help when the wind is affected by sugar rush (as well as giving all the mobs machine guns), or when the game sees if it can turn you into a potato with hamstrung + chill + cripple + slow > 2s daze every 2.5s, or when npng doesn't care if you're dealing with quartermasters/dropping lagoons correctly, or when instab lineup is completely backwards where it discourages you from touching the mobs at all because doing so just randomly makes it harder than before.

Imo, people aren't actually struggling with the encounter itself as much as they are with the instabs (which aren't as counter-able). The encounter isn't in much need of a rework and instab restrictions (or at least certain combinations such as +dmg, +dmg, +dmg) alone would do wonders.

This encounter as well as the reworked molten furnace boss could be considered a bit overblown, but only for T1/2/3 where you absolutely cannot expect players to be running a healer or even have pots to deal with all the junk these that things would trivialise.

> @"Hannelore.8153" said:

> > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > Anet's new formula for reaching the holy 38k+ grail is adding in fantastic conditions which are questionable to satisfy. Guard can reach 38k... if it manages to not get hit at all. Chrono can reach 40k... if it demands other players to supply slow for them. Slb - flanking (remembering to think outside raids). DE - standing completely still.

> >

> > If these conditions are not met, the dps of these builds drop dramatically - coincidently, somewhere only a little higher than what reaper is now.

> >

> > Using the same theory, necro already has that one magical interaction that boosts their dps closer to the holy grail - Dread: deal 33% increased dmg to foes under the effect of fear. And because someone (who was advocating for reaper) told me that we always have to judge from the most optimal conditions (because they didn't approve of me complaining about chrono and slow), this actually may be why reaper is seemingly unable to be buffed. *This* is the relevant tradeoff - just as chrono is 'slow or trash', necro being 'fear or trash' seems good enough for Anet.

>

> The problem is there's a world of difference between access to Fear and access to Slow in the game, especially by duration.

As was slow when Danger Time was changed to affect illusions as well - they increased sources of slow *after* this change. There's nothing stopping them doubling (tripling in the case for reaper) the fear duration of the related shroud fear skills for PvE only, which means necro can then reach these numbers if you simply stack ~6 of them, or 3-4 if they run Fear of Death. Lo and behold, you have your 38k dream that only really works in raids, while subjecting the rest of the class to trash dps elsewhere because otherwise this build would become 'too strong'. This is Anet's new formula.

Unless this what people want - in which they can feel free to advocate for this direction, I would personally prefer for my class(es) to be equally effective everywhere and not have to heavily rely on things way out of my control, instead of tempting other players using broken interactions and optimised benchmarks.

Anet's new formula for reaching the holy 38k+ grail is adding in fantastic conditions which are questionable to satisfy. Guard can reach 38k... if it manages to not get hit at all. Chrono can reach 40k... if it demands other players to supply slow for them. Slb - flanking (remembering to think outside raids). DE - standing completely still.

If these conditions are not met, the dps of these builds drop dramatically - coincidently, somewhere only a little higher than what reaper is now.

Using the same theory, necro already has that one magical interaction that boosts their dps closer to the holy grail - Dread: deal 33% increased dmg to foes under the effect of fear. And because someone (who was advocating for reaper) told me that we always have to judge from the most optimal conditions (because they didn't approve of me complaining about chrono and slow), this actually may be why reaper is seemingly unable to be buffed. *This* is the relevant tradeoff - just as chrono is 'slow or trash', necro being 'fear or trash' seems good enough for Anet.

Updated initial post for the February 25 2020 patch.

**DT pChrono:**

With Vicious Expression, pChrono is now able to break 40k (again). Changes to GS means that running focus is now always more optimal, and Domi should pretty much always be taken over Illu.

**IA/IR pChrono (‘no-slow chrono’):**

The no-slow Domi build got a nice boost with the recent patch, ~~but no-slow chrono in general still remains at the lower end of the dps spectrum~~.

**Core pMes:**

The change from Mental Anguish to Vicious Expression means that core mesmer got an increase to dps as well as reliability. However, the restoration of the 15% dmg bonus for 2/3 Mind Wrack means that core mesmer and mirage should not 'freeshatter' anymore, limiting the dps increase from this bonus.

**pMirage:**

I bench this as a joke.

**Edit(s):**

Someone made a IA domi (focus) bench of 34.4k, showing that the change to Domi has made it a *very* bloated traitline vs Illu.

Mesmer plays differently in PvP and PvE. I don’t PvP so I have nothing to contribute there.

IMHO, PvE power mesmer (note - not mirage) is actually really basic to play. It can very easily be dumbed down into phantasms = dmg, else: autoattack. Got clones? Hit F1 (it doesn’t really matter too much if it’s 1/2/3 clones, as long as it’s not 0).

Condi is currently pretty bad for core mesmer, so its not really an option unless looking into mirage. Hence, I find no need discuss its playstyle.

GS is a trap for core mesmer. Pre-patch it was a very trash weapon, now it’s a bit less trashy but it’s still trash. I get sad everytime it gets suggested outside of pChrono (reason: the weapon was carried by its phantasm(s) + Chronophantasma). Sw/Sw Sw/F was and still is many times better, and it even teaches good melee habits since it doesn’t allow horribly inefficient pewpewing from range (another trap for non-exp players).

Now that you know that you just want to spam phantasms > autoattack (and press F1 where applicable), we optimise this by taking SoE (Signet of Ether) to reset phantasms, Disenchanter cuz it’s a phantasm that deals big dmg, MoP (Mantra of Pain) cuz it’s free dmg that doesn’t interrupt our priorities, and Mirror Images for free insta-clones so we can happily F1 away.

Obviously it’s slightly a bit more intricate than that, but not by much (adding in sword #2 & #3 etc).

Traiting preferences vary from person to person, but I’d go for the path of most +dmg (so fights are less of a slog) which for mesmer is (1) domination 2-2-1, (2) dueling 1-3-1 and then (3) illusions 1-2-1, which coincidently lands you in the best endgame core mesmer build.

Mesmer is actually one of the better core classes to stand with current power levels of the especs in PvE, so the belief that it is hard to level is somewhat outdated (the *only* problem I find with it is that it is mind-numbingly slow at travelling).

Quick update of PvE numbers:

- DT domi pchrono (focus): someone reached 40k

- DT domi pchrono (gs): 38k-40k (less than focus but not worse than before)

- IA/IR domi pchrono: ~31k

- pCore mes: ~28k

- pMirage: ~23k

Just a heads up, I believe they restored the unlisted-unlisted 15% dmg bonus for 2/3 clone Mind Wrack/Split Second in between the patches, at the very least for PvE.

Final numbers will be listed in the thread where I'm keeping track of the performance of power mesmer builds.

> @"otto.5684" said:

> > @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > > @"Blur.3465" said:

> > > With the current changes, I am wondering how Mesmer plays now in Fractals and generally open world (bosses).

> > > I'm interested in Mirage the most, seeing that the patch nerfed the damage and cooldowns.

> > > I've grinded Astralaria just for the sole purpose of using it on my Mirage, would definitely hate to see condi Mirage go to waste and be rendered useless in PvE.

> > >

> > > What builds do you go with and what would you recommend to play, post-patch?

> > >

> > > PvP I have no intentions to touch now that Mirage lost its second dodge. I've struggled enough to pick up the fast paced PvP combat, with just one dodge I don't think I'll touch PvP for a while now.

> >

> > I would say just delete or retire your mesmer. No point in playing one. They arent good enough in fractals, or other content to compete with other classes. Core is underpowered in pvp/wvw and chrono/mirage are dead in pvp/wvw.

> >

> > THe only thing a mesmer is still good for is Open World content,if you can call that a thing worthy of being good at.

> >

> > I suggest retire, play FB, War, or other better classes with proper DPS that can play in other game modes. Why would you even ask?

> >

>

> Fyi, as of right now, power chrono is probably the highest dps output with the new domination trait. No mesmer build provides much utility, but the damage is there for both power and condi.

Not in this content (specifically fractals, dungeons and open world).

For fractals, pchrono’s burst is too slow for advanced runs, and requires good slow uptime to achieve big numbers. Bosses are also having annoying phases added to them, making this is rarely achievable. Therefore, the only time where it truly excels is when the party isn’t very experienced in the first place, which is in fact rather common, but it is still incorrect to say that pchrono is anywhere near meta for fractals.

Dungeons are comparatively the same, assuming a decent group, things die way too quickly for pchrono to have an impact, and clearing trash mobs quickly and or efficiently is not one of pchrono’s strengths.

Openworld is even worse, there is practically no point of running chrono when things die before Chronophantasma sees any real use.

- For shorter fights and clearing trash mobs, core mesmer spits out its dmg the fastest while still sporting dps just slightly lower than (domi) pchrono with no-slow.

- For situations where support is seriously lacking, IR illu pchrono will likely pull ahead despite having trash tier dps because generating your boons is superior to having none at all.

- In cases otherwise, this is where you’d bring (domi) pchrono.

Tbh, if you are able to play dps mesmer at all in PvE, that’s already enough reason to be able to play condi mirage instead. If something as inefficient as pchrono can be deemed as acceptable, I can’t see why condi mirage wouldn’t be.

> @"NICENIKESHOE.7128" said:

> > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> >

> > From what I hear (ppl posting this in discord and stuff):

> > - DT domi pchrono (gs): someone has already reached 43k

> > - DT domi pchrono (focus): someone has already reached 41k

> >

> > From what I quickly math'ed:

> > - IA domi pchrono: 33-35k

> > - pCore mes: 32-33k

> > - pMirage: ~27k

> > **where IA did not synergise well with GS, and GS is a much weaker choice without Chronophantasma. Hence these builds use(d) focus** (and were not subject to GS nerfs).

>

> New benchmark, played pretty much the same

Might just be me, or the numbers for GS seem a bit off. I can see that the vid uses bountiful blades over empowered illusions which may or may not be optimal, and apparently the old rotation(?) (you might need to look this up). Alternatively, it could be all those ppl claiming that there is a 42.5k bench somewhere (but with non-existent proof :lol:).

I'd try testing this myself, but afaik I'm incapable of doing benchmarks thanks to avg 300 ping, and I'm currently far more interested in examining what is left behind in the rise of DT - pchrono in no-slow (non-raiding) conditions and core mes with its more frequent and shorter bursts (and technically power mirage, which is currently best played exactly like a weakened version of core anyway).

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > 25% is way too broken for a trait where enemies rarely have boons in PVE, and even adds more boonstrip on cc.

> >

> > From what I’m hearing, and using quick math, numbers are going to go crazy following this patch:

> > - DT domi pchrono (gs): 43-45k

> > - DT domi pchrono (focus): 41-43k

> > - IA domi pchrono: 33-35k

> > - pCore mes: 32-33k

> > - pMirage: ~27k

> >

> > Meanwhile:

> > - DT illu pchrono: 34.4k

> > - IA/IR illu pchrono: 27-28k

> >

> > IMO, ~10% would’ve been much more appropriate. Now that Domi is so bloated, it’s questionable why Illu has weaker illusions in comparison even though it’s supposedly meant to *focus on illusions*.

>

> did you take into account that

> 1 GS4 loses boomerang on sword ( 1 less hit )

> 2 GS4 loses 33% dmg per berserker instead of 25%

> 3 GS2 loses 15% dmg per bounce ( this didnt exist )

> 25% dmg straight up is too much, it should propably be lowered to 15%, same as pvp.

From what I hear (ppl posting this in discord and stuff):

- DT domi pchrono (gs): someone has already reached 43k

- DT domi pchrono (focus): someone has already reached 41k

From what I quickly math'ed:

- IA domi pchrono: 33-35k

- pCore mes: 32-33k

- pMirage: ~27k

**where IA did not synergise well with GS, and GS is a much weaker choice without Chronophantasma. Hence these builds use(d) focus** (and were not subject to GS nerfs).

25% is way too broken for a trait where enemies rarely have boons in PVE, and even adds more boonstrip on cc.

From what I’m hearing, and using quick math, numbers are going to go crazy following this patch:

- DT domi pchrono (gs): 43-45k

- DT domi pchrono (focus): 41-43k

- IA domi pchrono: 33-35k

- pCore mes: 32-33k

- pMirage: ~27k

Meanwhile:

- DT illu pchrono: 34.4k

- IA/IR illu pchrono: 27-28k

IMO, ~10% would’ve been much more appropriate. Now that Domi is so bloated, it’s questionable why Illu has weaker illusions in comparison even though it’s supposedly meant to *focus on illusions*.

> @"Tayga.3192" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > People, warden deals alot of damage. In fact it deals as much damage as perfectly landed Gs4, including 4 ticks from berserker and double hit from the blade.

> > The reason why warden doesnt feel influential is becouse it hits targets at random. pets, illusions, other people that are at full hp anyways.

> > Making warden focus the target would be a good consistency buff.

> > Fix whats inconsistent, frustrating etc etc. worry about numbers later.

>

> As I said, I'm asking for utility buffs and keeping the scattered damage (focus is a defensive weapon, not a single target damage weapon).

Mesmer focus is more of a utility weapon than a defensive/support weapon. Healing and boonspam are not thematic to focus' weapon identity, especially for mesmer focus, which should probably have more innate and reliable projectile hate without having to trait for it.

It is allowed to have damage, since weapon phantasms are specifically designed to do damage (and how foci on other classes can do damage). Warden in particular could do with some QoL where 50% of the projectiles actually target the target and is not subject to randomly targeting useless things such as dead corpses and objects, and maybe a hefty HP buff given its fragile and longer lifetime.

> @"Genesis.5169" said:

> we need to punch back and call out terrible mistakes by the devs.

OK.

From December 11th 2018 patch:

> Following up on the previous balance release, we're continuing to update weapon traits to offer more meaningful options **when players are not using the related weapons** while also enhancing those weapons' playstyles if the player is using them.

Also devs:

> Bountiful Blades (NEW): Mirror Blades bounces 2 additional times. Phantasmal Berserker summons an additional berserker and they each deal less damage (33% instead of 25% less damage.

Looks useful on non-GS setups /s.

Compare this to [Fencer's Finesse](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fencer%27s_Finesse):

> Explosive Temper (NEW): Explosions grant +20 stacking Ferocity for 10 seconds when they hit (10 stacks max)

Or check out [Honed Axes](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Honed_Axes) (free +120 vs +150 stacking w/ correct weapon), it's even getting more effects now too (for reasons unknown).

For a while now, changes in general just seem '???'. At the very least, I wonder why mesmer weapon traits are stuck in their archaic state when they made the effort to change a lot of the other profession's weapon traits.

BTW, for those who think that GS is getting buffed - they only said they'd make it *more reliable*. Because there are occasions where it's really bad and others where it's good (e.g. no bounce mirror blade vs full 3 hit mirror blade). This is a nerf for the occasions where it's good. Nothing changed for bad.

> @"reikken.4961" said:

> > @"Tayga.3192" said:

> > > @"reikken.4961" said:

> > > you don't lose dodge distance though. mirage cloak gives you +66% move speed while active, so if you're moving you cover the same distance as a normal dodge

> >

> > Some math:

> > 1 dodge is 300 units in 0.75 seconds in any direction.

> > Mirage dodge is 349 units in 0.75 seconds, only going forward.

>

> movement speed is capped at 400 units per second

Movement speed is capped at 400 units/s.

Out of combat speed is 294 units/s; combat speed however, is 210 units/s (going forwards).

1 dodge is 300 units in 0.75s.

300/0.75 = 400 units/s = movement speed cap.

1 ooc mirage dodge going forward is the same distance, since it is not an animation and so it is capped (294/s * 1.66 > 400/s).

From the wiki:

*Movement Speed increases do not stack with each other—only the greatest value takes effect.* Hence mirage dodge will only take into account the +66% unless buffed with superspeed - in which it will cover the same distance as a normal dodge because it is capped.

1 in-combat mirage dodge is 210/s * 1.66. But it is only for 0.75s, not 1s.

So 210 * 1.66 * 0.75 = **261 units, which is less than a regular dodge**. And this is only going forwards.

Strafe dodge = ~~224 units.~~ 135 units.

Backwards dodge = ~~131 units.~~ 79 units. (whoops *sideways and backward motion cannot be increased beyond their base levels by any effect*)

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> to add to this

> mirage dodge can be slowed down by cripple/chill. normal dodge cant.

PvE-wise, this trait is meant to compensate all the GS nerfs they just pulled off (to make it more ‘consistent’), and it is likely that GS dps will stay almost the same. It does buff the the weaker variant (domi focus) however, but pChrono’s max dps bench is unlikely to change drastically.

Without a decent amount of slow uptime in fracs to benefit from Danger Time, pChrono simply deals low tier dps in this content, and would be majorly undesirable/unnecessary even if it has an abundance of boonstrip capabilities.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/82231/the-new-shatters-in-numbers

I was the one who specifically inquired on the unlisted dmg boost in that thread.

According that thread, the difference is *already* 5% and it has been for *more than half a year* now - just no one rarely ever paid attention to it.

Even I devised a different pve core mesmer rotation after personally noticing >1 clone Mind Wrack wasn’t as impactful as before (3 clone MW was only 20% better than 1 clone).

So what you’re asking for would actually count as a straight up buff, which I am not opposed to, but anet would be most likely unwilling to grant. Also considering that 3 clone MW might only be just 20% better than 1 clone, there isn’t much leeway or significance for buffing 2 clone MW in the first place.

> @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > > @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > > > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > > > The unlisted 15% dmg boost for 2/3 clones already doesn't exist anymore, as proven in another thread. Hence this was just a universal dmg nerf.

> > > >

> > > > (~~OP~~ patch notes used boosted numbers)

> > >

> > > I did think about this but doesn't matter much either way, if postpatch numbers in patchnotes are correct the 1->2 clone diff is what i outlined above and the problem remains.

> >

> > TBH it's always been somewhat like this way (1 clone shatter being most efficient) and I suppose it doesn't really matter when clone survivability isn't a thing in pvp - pulling 1 clone is enough in their eyes, shattering more is just for trait procs.

>

> Which is why it doesnt need to get worse, particularly not only a 5% difference.

That doesn’t really change anything I just said. 2 clone Mind Wrack has been this way (insignificant vs 1/3 clone) for a while now.

> Question 1: why not reward shattering with more clones?

The reason why Mind Wrack does not scale linearly (suggested from the other post) is because anet decided to avoid a balance nightmare in which either 1/0 clone MW would be too weak, or 3 clone would be too strong. Having 1/2/3 clone MW deal close to the same total dmg means that anet doesn’t have to worry about players complaining about clones being easily cleaved down and ruining the mesmer’s (power-based) offensive output.

This became a problem with chrono when it lost IP however (fyi 1 clone MW > 3 clone Split Second), hence my reason for proposing for chrono to retain its profession resource somehow.

> Problem: as a result, there will only be a 5% difference between shattering with 1 clone and 2 clones, meaning that shattering with 1 clone out will be the unequivocal best decision and spawning another clone will be a misplay (calculation assumes melee range yadayada).

You are still rewarded that 5% more dmg, and whatever on-shatter traits taken for ‘misplaying’. You also have to consider blind/aegis/ranged shatter where 2 clone MW is simply better than 1 clone.

Diversion is also similar, there is almost no point in shattering any clones at all *besides* only to proc additional traits.

If base dmg was the main concern, then it is most efficient to use 1 clone MW’s and 3 clone Cry of Frustration’s (which scales as desired?), meaning even 3 clone MW is just as irrelevant as 2 clone. Meanwhile chrono has it tough where it ideally wants to shatter w/ as much clones as possible, but is in some gamemodes questionably unable to do so?

> @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > The unlisted 15% dmg boost for 2/3 clones already doesn't exist anymore, as proven in another thread. Hence this was just a universal dmg nerf.

> >

> > (~~OP~~ patch notes used boosted numbers)

>

> I did think about this but doesn't matter much either way, if postpatch numbers in patchnotes are correct the 1->2 clone diff is what i outlined above and the problem remains.

TBH it's always been somewhat like this way (1 clone shatter being most efficient) and I suppose it doesn't really matter when clone survivability isn't a thing in pvp - pulling 1 clone is enough in their eyes, shattering more is just for trait procs.

The unlisted 15% dmg boost for 2/3 clones already doesn't exist anymore, as proven in another thread. Hence this was just a universal dmg nerf.

(~~OP~~ patch notes used boosted numbers)