Noodle Ant.1605

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> Yes, all great noble ideas but there is only so much which is possible with a balance and developer team of a specific size.

Yes, I’m aware that 80% of my suggestions on this forum are ‘noble’ (so you say) long term goals that anet has to decide whether they want to gradually implement in their future patches or not. Because that’s just how this game rolls.

> What you completetly omit though is that elite specs, even the ones you mentioned, differentiate themselves not by trinity or role but by game play. Furthermore you are looking at this from only a pve perspective. WvW and Spvp see a lot of different gameplay. Last I checked, Scrapper is the top tier WvW support spec currently right after Firebrand. Both Scrapper and Holosmith see play in WvW in romaing for example.

Don’t tell me that I’ve omitted when you’re capable of doing the same. And congrats, you’ve correctly identified that I mainly focus on pve (please keep this in mind).

> @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> giving scrapper a viable **PvE** dps role.

So you say scrapper shouldn’t exist in endgame pve unless playing only as a (inefficient) support role? I actually never planned to suggest more dmg or *anything really* to wvw/pvp scrapper.

> No what you are complaining about is that druid and scrapper do not have meta viable dps specs for pve.

Not complaining (I am personally unaffected by any changes made to engi or ranger, I only play the three light armor proffessions), I’m just the fool who claims to have ‘noble’ ideas. And I never said meta, the meta is simply too hard to beat - something more aligned with herald dps (which is currently very trash, who would be complaining against giving scrapper higher but still low tier dps?)

> That is a very niche role and aspect to the game to look at. Especially from two of the most powerful support specs in the game.

I thought we weren’t talking about *roles* and trying to avoid trinity pigeonholing. I would have admittedly omitted this out of spite.

There’s a unique variety of tools, additional features and flaws that each different dps builds on different professions bring, it’s never niche unless every skill on the bar does nothing but a dmg number and the rotation is ‘press everything off cd’. Fortunately, scrapper already has function gyro, and its superspeed + stab on its expanse access to cc could find a use somewhere.

> Yes, and meanwhile Support Scrapper is the second best support spec in WvW and a node tank in spvp. Where was druid in WvW again?

Suggesting 0 changes to wvw/pvp scrapper here. Druid, I’ve highlighted but have formulated no plans to move against (or else I would be spouting said nonsense in the ranger forums).

> Obviously in an ideal world we would see as many viable builds for each class as possible. This would require near perfect balance. Suffice to say, that is very unlikely to happen. The next best thing in my opinion is at least make every core class viable for as many roles as possible.

Agreed, perfect balance is very unlikely to happen. It is possible that anet keeps things unbalanced to constantly refresh the game. But then again, this isn’t even balance. It’s basically trying to get scrapper a *sustained* role/s in high-end pve.

I agree that a lot of problems would be fixed if the core classes were viable by themselves. Especs should ideally be an alternative ‘utility’ line (discipline, virtues, invocations, beastmastery, etc.) that provides options/traits for 3 distinct pathways (pve power/condi dps, selfish sustain, group support, wvw/pvp utility, etc.).

Having trinity locked especs is unappealing for players who don’t bother with that sort of thing. Gamemode oriented especs are the same for pve/wvw/pvp specific players, thus why I see giving scrapper ‘the other option’ can increase its popularity in the long run, unaffected by whether or not the support/wvw/pvp options fail, since those areas way more volatile and subject to meta shifts (because previously as a pvp-oriented espec, I believe it practically fell out of the entire game at a certain point?).

> @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > There’s also the other option of doing the unthinkable: giving scrapper a viable PvE dps role.

> >

> > Now I’m aware that Holosmith already exists, but I’m getting tired of the oh, *only this* spec is the ‘dps spec’ - I don’t like the apparent need to pigeonhole specs into specific roles. How I’m approaching this, is the same way of how DD/DE and tempest/weaver co-exist - there’s somehow viable power dps builds for both options. I think it might help to look at DE and tempest in detail, since the pigeonhole society have categorised these two into ‘support’ somewhere down the line (which they obviously have the choice not to be).

> >

> > Dps scrapper IMO should be what kitless holo is currently - potentially a slightly inferior but viable dps spec (although it doesn’t have to be inferior overall), maybe with an easier rotation (purely uses hammer, doesn’t need to switch into kits/manage heat and photon forge) and unique features (like high amounts of cc and stab uptime). Basically, a dps *option* with a different flavour; does the same thing but in a different way, perhaps with additional useful features, but with a clearly different aesthetic/theme.

>

> why?

>

> again, abolish all classes but scrapper? How about not-every-class-is-awesome-at-everything?

Where did I say that I wanted to abolish all classes?

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > There’s also the other option of doing the unthinkable: giving scrapper a viable PvE dps role.

> >

> > Now I’m aware that Holosmith already exists, but I’m getting tired of the oh, *only this* spec is the ‘dps spec’ - I don’t like the apparent need to pigeonhole specs into specific roles. How I’m approaching this, is the same way of how DD/DE and tempest/weaver co-exist - there’s somehow viable power dps builds for both options. I think it might help to look at DE and tempest in detail, since the pigeonhole society have categorised these two into ‘support’ somewhere down the line (which they obviously have the choice not to be).

> >

> > Dps scrapper IMO should be what kitless holo is currently - potentially a slightly inferior but viable dps spec (although it doesn’t have to be inferior overall), maybe with an easier rotation (purely uses hammer, doesn’t need to switch into kits/manage heat and photon forge) and unique features (like high amounts of cc and stab uptime). Basically, a dps *option* with a different flavour; does the same thing but in a different way, perhaps with additional useful features, but with a clearly different aesthetic/theme.

>

> You do realize that most classes have elite specs for different game modes and roles.

>

> Why should engineers need multiple PvE power dps builds? Holosmith is great at PvE power damage. Why would you intentionally stiffle the design possibilties of Scrapper by forcing more damage onto the specialization and make balance potentially even worse/hard?

>

> DD/DE are nearly identical in how they play: autoattack to win and press a utility skill every 20-30 seconds. The main reason being thiefs initiative design. You want Arenanet to copy this simplicity to engineer?

>

> Tempest and Weaver again share a vast majority of the elementalists core abilities and utilities.

>

> Let's look at which classes do not have multiple builds fullfilling the same role on different elite specializations:

> - mesmer

> - necromancer

> - engineer

> - guardian

> - revenant

> - ranger

>

> The last outlier is warrior who once again achieves his power damage via his core weapons mostly with variations what his elite specializations provide. Now why do you believe engineer deserves a different treatment than 2/3s of all classes?

Hmm, I never said to get rid of the supportive capabilities of scrapper.

If all professions according to the instinctive need to pigeonhole are not allowed to have two similar roles or designed to have one specific role (i.e. dps, although raids created the differentiation of power/condi) then I would have to say the possibilities and popularity of future especs looks pretty bleak. Some professions are technically ‘done’ - guardian, it has its power & condi dps and also support options. What’s its next espec gonna be? *Tanky pvp oriented, useless in pve wall that does does nothing but tank?* Theorhetically:

- Guard is done

- Rev is done (although its power option is really weak because *it’s support* /sigh. Even then, herald support is still very weak)

- Ranger is done (druid is kinda sad however with its support only option)

- Thief is done (could use a more effective support build, but how many would play thief to heal/support like a druid/fb? DD could use condi buffs or alternatively, a specifically condi oriented espec could be made)

- Necro is done

- Ele is done

- Mes is done

We (or least I) can look at this in multiple ways to try and argue w/e point we’re trying to make. Why is it that every espec can do some sort of dps except druid/scrapper? Are those two the problem, or has everything else been done completely wrong? Should we get rid of/rework ‘two role’ especs? Because without doing so, we’re going to run into the same problem (no two especs should do the same thing) *anyway*:

- Beserker - power/condi

- FB - support/condi

- Herald - power/support

- Renegade - condi/support

- SlB - power/condi

- DD - power/condi

- Chrono - support/power

- Temp - power/support

- Scourge - condi/support

Throwing a very unproven assumption here, but I suspect more players play dmg roles than support, and if especs are locked out of such option, it has less of a population - especially in high-end pve when it’s support capabilities are or become overshadowed by the meta (druid *is dying*, albeit very slowly).

I don’t even own an engi anymore (I deleted it because I dislike alts), I’m not looking to make scrapper ‘special’ - this more of a consistency review, or another fool claiming to have great ideas for the unrealistic dream of *build diversity*. You can take or leave my opinion, as this thread is more oriented on making engi support more prominent, but it still stands if you find the need to refer back to it.

tl;dr: good luck trying to make scrapper be able to compete with the meta support options and have some place in high-end pve, no /sarcasm, I genuinely want to see different specs that are able support other than the usual ~4.

There’s also the other option of doing the unthinkable: giving scrapper a viable PvE dps role.

Now I’m aware that Holosmith already exists, but I’m getting tired of the oh, *only this* spec is the ‘dps spec’ - I don’t like the apparent need to pigeonhole specs into specific roles. How I’m approaching this, is the same way of how DD/DE and tempest/weaver co-exist - there’s somehow viable power dps builds for both options. I think it might help to look at DE and tempest in detail, since the pigeonhole society have categorised these two into ‘support’ somewhere down the line (which they obviously have the choice not to be).

Dps scrapper IMO should be what kitless holo is currently - potentially a slightly inferior but viable dps spec (although it doesn’t have to be inferior overall), maybe with an easier rotation (purely uses hammer, doesn’t need to switch into kits/manage heat and photon forge) and unique features (like high amounts of cc and stab uptime). Basically, a dps *option* with a different flavour; does the same thing but in a different way, perhaps with additional useful features, but with a clearly different aesthetic/theme.

I am inclined to believe that it is actually a mechanical issue.

Power dmg is easy to scale down since clones appear to use separate skills from the mesmer, which all appear to have abysmal power scaling (e.g. 0.005 compared to 0.5). This is how i make sense of how anet managed to get clones who use split surge (gs ambush + infinite horizon) to actually do ‘okay’ dmg while every other power dmg the clone does is negligible.

Condi would appear to be harder, since condies @ lv 80 deal a fixed amount of dmg. 1 unbuffed, +0 condi dmg stack of bleeding will always do 22 dmg/s. Without condi dmg reduction traits/buffs/runes there is no possible way to reduce this number lower than 22.

I’m sure anet has the means to implement some sort of *similarity* between the two, but I’m just pointing out that such means do not currently exist, and also that mesmer has evolved through the ages with this, um... *feature* since the game’s inception.

It’s the one you use the springer to jump on floating blocks of a broken wall. Requires some degree of precision springer skillz from memory.

Edit: because you use a mount, I don’t the necro tactic works as well, and the 5000 range of portal might be breached if you can’t make the first few jumps/fall down too far.

It’s part of the Skyscale of Fear collection.

PChrono is a bit different when it comes to gearing. If you expect to take it raiding a lot/you know your comp will slow things for you, sure, go full zerkers. Otherwise, it might be better to tack on some missing crit chance% using assassin gear (and if you cant use Danger Time at all, expect to be putting on A LOT of it).

Back to the main question, your phantasms (the main attraction of OH sword) are completely unaffected by weapon strength since they use their own. That being said, getting ascended doesn’t even really matter, but the exotic zerkers completely would trump the ascended viper.

> @"steki.1478" said:

> > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > From a PvE perspective, a single target weapon sounds horrible to use, unless it’s inherently broken in terms of putting down mobs w/ minimal might, fury & quickness (which might probably mean it would be broken in PvP too), otherwise it’ll become the next DH or ranger LB. Besides, I feel like tempest sc/w is single target enough since a chunk of its dmg comes from lightning orb and lightning strike, and upon removing tempest + warhorn, the scepter looks fairly single target itself in terms of garbage AA. Weaver reinforces this idea by supplying additional single target #3 skills.

> >

> > Tempest’s supposed mechanic - overloads, never had to be melee, but anet’s push to make the spec focus on auras unfortunately meant that either the spec was destined to be melee since auras only work ‘on hit’, the traitline ran out of space for overload-modifying traits, or the overload mechanic was so last-minute they just went with whatever they had on release day and never looked back to change it ever again. A rehaul of the traitline could be used, and one trait that could make the whole difference is one that makes overloads ranged, centering itself on the target for half the cast time and locking itself in place until the end of cast (similar to two-layered telegraph bomb mechanic already found in fracs and raids). Mechanical tradeoffs can be introduced using LoS, and being intelligently placed to compete with the trait that gives overloads stability.

> >

> > So hypothetically, the ranged single target weapon and a espec to compliment it that is so desired could born from an outdated weapon we already have, after a well-thought and probably much needed rework. Otherwise, we’re gonna get a weapon that suffers from the traditional issue of being useless in PvE, or completely overshadows the rest of the ele’s weapon choices (i.e. sword).

>

> Ele doesnt even need pve specs anymore, it needs something reliable for pvp/wvw.

>

> Tempest used to be top dmg class but got nerfed because weaver also fulfills that role. Single targt spec will only have high burst, but its dps would be mediocre so it doesnt compete with dps weaver builds at all. Support shouldnt even need to be discussed, and there's no other play style that ele lacks.

I’m not arguing against the need for a new, fresh (and maybe PvP/WvW-reliable) espec; I’m just pointing out from my perspective that the push for a new single target ranged weapon seems largely unnecessary while scepter exists. I believe the weapon is held back by the ‘outdatedness’ that seems to plague the entirety of core ele, and could be refined further to fulfil the defined role single target burst (which it kinda tries to do already on FA burst builds), without restricting it to an espec. For a new weapon, long range I can agree on, but why restrict it to single target (even more so when discussing WvW)? The AAs could look like piercing/exploding Scorchrazors while AoEs just need to be ‘one-hit’ and ‘on-cast’ like Grasping Dead or Mind Spike, not lingering or delayed like the ones we have now.

My reference to tempest was purely a suggestion to shift it from being a ‘melee’ oriented espec mechanic to something more in line with ele’s profession description of being ‘ranged’. I didn’t make any suggestions to try to increase its PvE dps, and even then I don’t really believe in the singular ‘dps espec’ philosophy anyway (cuz imo weaver is the ‘condi espec’, which sounds just as far fetched).

If ele needs especs to carry its behind through PvP, we might need to address core problems first, rather than pretending that they don’t exist by covering it with a shiny new espec that hides all those flaws. This doesn’t apply only to ele; many future especs could be easily made provided that the core class is fairly strong by itself, but anet apparently intends to deal with this in a possibly more convoluted way (see ‘tradeoffs’ for druid and daredevil).

From a PvE perspective, a single target weapon sounds horrible to use, unless it’s inherently broken in terms of putting down mobs w/ minimal might, fury & quickness (which might probably mean it would be broken in PvP too), otherwise it’ll become the next DH or ranger LB. Besides, I feel like tempest sc/w is single target enough since a chunk of its dmg comes from lightning orb and lightning strike, and upon removing tempest + warhorn, the scepter looks fairly single target itself in terms of garbage AA. Weaver reinforces this idea by supplying additional single target #3 skills.

Tempest’s supposed mechanic - overloads, never had to be melee, but anet’s push to make the spec focus on auras unfortunately meant that either the spec was destined to be melee since auras only work ‘on hit’, the traitline ran out of space for overload-modifying traits, or the overload mechanic was so last-minute they just went with whatever they had on release day and never looked back to change it ever again. A rehaul of the traitline could be used, and one trait that could make the whole difference is one that makes overloads ranged, centering itself on the target for half the cast time and locking itself in place until the end of cast (similar to two-layered telegraph bomb mechanic already found in fracs and raids). Mechanical tradeoffs can be introduced using LoS, and being intelligently placed to compete with the trait that gives overloads stability.

So hypothetically, the ranged single target weapon and a espec to compliment it that is so desired could born from an outdated weapon we already have, after a well-thought and probably much needed rework. Otherwise, we’re gonna get a weapon that suffers from the traditional issue of being useless in PvE, or completely overshadows the rest of the ele’s weapon choices (i.e. sword).

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> For example, so many people complain that weaver doesn't have good CC, while I'm over here going Gale Strike -> Polaric Leap -> Earthquake -> Updraft in quick succession, on demand.

Indeed, in PvE the ‘ele is bad at cc’ is mostly a stigma that originated from staff weaver builds which rotations (fire/earth only) did not incorporate much hard cc (‘sides Unsteady Ground, if you can even count that). Alternatively, there’s BttH and then two of those skills disappear if you don’t wanna nuke on dps (cuz then might as well play another class), while also leaving the other two only usable in ‘windows’, rather on demand.

- If we examine FA sc/w temp, they only have cyclone and tidal wave, and *may* supply dazing strikes via lightning field combo.

- If we examine core staff, they only have gust, static field and unsteady ground, which the last two I don’t even know whether you can count. Ice bow if taken has deep freeze, I guess.

I just think by now, players just assume that eles are not gonna be breaking bars when there’s more reliable people around to do it.

It might depend on what you’re using it for - e.g. in open world, most trash mobs have on average ~20k hp, which the ‘aoe stacking’ nature of staff (2+4+2+4+6+2) is surpassed by the more ‘sequential’ sword + dagger which deals meatier packets of dmg (8+8+6). This is further exaggerated on warhorn tempest which deals a bunch of 1.5-2.5k crits, but at least does it significantly faster than staff.

Most core weapons are weak in comparison to espec weapons, and the PvE dmg the class brings itself is mostly carried by conjures or the espec mechanic - tempest is a better option than core, not only because warhorn, but the fresh air + overload interaction. Weaver removes the need to attune into ‘useless’ elements whilst also reducing the drawback of reattuning with its 4s global cd. The new weapons make attuning into air actually desirable and is a significant dps increase opposed to camping fire, making fresh air builds a thing (a core trait that’s largely useless for core builds).

All the weapons appear to have finally received actual updates with weaver in the form of dual skills, but sadly this is completely inaccessible by core builds. Weaver staff is undeniably better dmg-wise than core staff, who would gladly trade their some of their #3’s for dual skills since attunement dancing to use high dmg skills means jacksquat when you’re still locked out fire by the end of it. Tempest ignores most of this since it has the fresh air + overload interaction, but the period of time it spends before overloading is painful w/o conjures since air skills are sad to use.

Reusing one of my ideas, it would interesting if (weaver) staff and sword dealt close dmg, with staff being slightly under but with a noticeably burstier dps. Otherwise, core staff could get some buffs to some of their non-fire 3-5 skills, because currently they are 9/20 of staff skills a dps build will *rarely* touch.

It’s PvE, and it’s ele. Theres two options:

- All out, or

- Not at all.

All out assumes that you go full-offensive, focusing every ounce of energy into blowing up the enemy before it blows you up. Full offensive gear (power - precision - ferocity) and a 100% offensive rotation/combo utility bar. The only fallback is heal glyph because doing anything else is only just delaying the inevitable.

Not at all. No - you don’t feel like you’re going outlast the enemy. You’re gonna have to take healing power, healing traits and all the things that keep you healthy. Water is your friend. It doesn’t matter that they’re not dying very fast as long as you’re alive.

/s

Sadly, core ele feels really outdated and the only usable weapon imo for levelling is double daggers since the ranged weapons lose their range bonus since so many of their skills only work in melee (where the enemy stops moving). Additionally, there is really no reason to swap out of fire since the other attunements don’t offer as much dmg.

For general leveling tips, I’m a fan of the all-out mentality (possibly because I know the game fairly well). In my experience, ele is easiest levelled up using double daggers in fire attunement since most of the skills deal easy dmg and are highly spammable - swapping to other attunements are a waste of time other than hard cc (but you usually want to kill the enemy faster, not disable them). The 6-0 skills would likely look like Glyph of Elemental Harmony, Arcane Blast, Glyph of Storms, Signet of Fire (for passive, don’t ever activate) and Glyph of Elementals (use to aggro vets and bosses, don’t bother with normal mobs).

The first traitline to unlock in my levelling method is usually the one that makes you flat-out do more dmg. In this case, it’s Fire (wow much surprise), and select the top-top-middle traits (1-1-2). Now your offensive capabilities are boosted by ~30% and things should much die faster than before. The second traitline would probably be Air (3-1-1) and the third Arcane (?-3-3) or Water (?-3-?) but by lv 71, you should probably boost yourself to 80 if possible. At this point, you can read up on the sites suggested by Cyninja and learn the deeper intricacies of ele such as the attunement dance and conjures.

There’s also other universal things a to pay attention to, such as maintaining appropriate levelled gear, dealing with a small number of mobs at a time etc. or else you’ll naturally fail regardless of build or playstyle. Otherwise, ele may not be a class for you, since it doesn’t really get much different at higher levels...

> @"Delofasht.4231" said:

> Dune Cloak is nearly exclusively for condition damage builds, but for all the usual builds seems to be a less good option than Infinite Horizon (which is why making it minor would be such a good choice).

Might be IMO and irrelevant but Dune Cloak I think provides PvE power mirage the highest dps out of the other choices - paired with Desert Distortion (because all the other master traits are similarly useless), Distortion amusingly becomes a dmg skill since you can shatter 3 separate mirrors (which deals fair power dmg btw) and proc dune cloak 3 times. A Dune Cloak build would likely focus on mirage mirror mechanics, except that mechanic I feel anet has decided not to expand on that much.

Besides, I think power mirage is on par with core mes (~26k) but it’s unnecessarily more *confusing* to play :sunglasses:, so maybe it could be addressed if such changes are made.

For chrono, as a large percentage of dmg comes from your phantasms which don’t benefit from much of your sigils, so it doesn’t matter too much which sigils you take. According to a benchmarker, even agony sigils (increases bleed duration, much wow) is a competitive choice.

However, I would recommend at least a force sigil for the first slot and as for the other:

- Impact is part of the meta, makes you (and only you) do more dmg, especially to disabled foes or when their breakbar is broken.

- Air is good for single target and trash burst.

- Agony for lols (is only decent on Illu + focus builds I think).

- Strength for open world where you can’t reach 25 might.

- I actually think bloodlust is the most potent choice for chrono, since the power increase actually affects your illusions as well. It’s roughly a ~7% overall dmg increase even when fully buffed, but of course requires you to have killed 25 things beforehand.

> @"pdmxd.4375" said:

> So use the open world build for difficult content and the power build for going around, gotcha.

>

> The build you linked have full zerk on, the one on the metabattle has almost every piece of gear assasin like the sword/sword/shield one. The rotation is almost the same but doest the stats make a huge difference?

>

> Do you have any personal tips btw? Don't know if there's some class secret I don't know yet haha.

>

> Sorry if this is a lot of questions, I'm not as familiar with the game as I once was.

Noooooooo my secrets! xD

The stat difference exists since the the build I linked is for raids, which assumes good slow uptime so you can run Danger Time for the 15% extra crit chance (the website should really state this). The trait is fairly useless when you play solo however, since you lose more dmg than you gain if you try to build around it. I run Improved Alacrity with all the assassin gear myself, because I run much more open world than I do raids, although I take a bit less precision so I don’t overcap crit so much in fracs.

There’s really no secret behind mashing the phantasm buttons and then Signet of Ether (heal skill) and then going back to mash the phantasms again. Before, there was a Continuum Split secret feature involving aftercast timing, but sadly it’s been ‘bugfixed’ by anet.

I guess there’s clone and shatter management as well - basically try to shatter (Mind Wrack) @ 3 clones so you don’t waste further clones. Cry of Fustration is mostly useless, only use for extra dmg right after another shatter when you have 0 clones. Use Diversion to interrupt hard hitting or cc skills and Distort as either cover for casting skills or as a panic button, trading clones for defense rather than offense (though 0 clones works just as well). When you solo champs, breaking the blue bar with cc (if it exists) is actually important, I’d advise saving up for a 3 clone Diversion over a 3 clone Mind Wrack, and then unload all your dmg when the bar is broken as it takes more dmg.

Edit: If you have the PoF expansion and want real deep secrets, I’d suggest asking the mirage masters, since they apparently make open world a cakewalk while still being meta/ very viable for high end PvE content. It’s a radically different play style, but like most people, I would recommend playing the one you prefer most.

> @"pdmxd.4375" said:

> Thanks a lot! I mostly want to do open world stuff (HoT and PoF) untill I get the grip of the game again then I'm going to do fractals/dungeons . I want to solo champs but I need to get down the mechanics and what each skill do exactly.

> Do chrono lack AoE?

> I was a little confused because the open world build uses wells and the fractal doesn't. So I leave the wells for open world meta events and switch for the fractal one for harder fights like bosses/champions?

Chrono has a level of *cleave*, but AoE wise - yeah, it’s sad. I usually take sword/sword, x/focus practically everywhere for the group pull on focus #4, it just makes my life (and others) easier.

The ‘meta’ (frac/raid) build is what you’d use against non champs and instanced content with others, and the one with the Wells + shield is made for the intention of soloing champs. Chrono isn’t put in a lot of danger using its rotation (the phantasm casts are ranged and blurred frenzy evades) so you’d run the ‘meta’ setup for the most part, switching to the build you’ve linked for evidently stronger opponents, or ones which you don’t know the skills of. It’s mostly a matter of switching weapons and few utilities to suit your needs, so the build is actually quite flexible in what you want to achieve (e.g. I remembered solo’ing the mastery boss in verdant brink that constantly vomits a bunch of adds because I knew I had to take ranged + feedback)

It’s an open world build so I assume it’s for open world stuff? Rotations aren’t too important there, it’s just a matter of knowing offensive/defensive skills and when you can go leeroy or not.

Otherwise, if you go full offensive, a phantasm + blurred frenzy + 1 clone mind wrack is enough to significantly blow up any trash mob; for vets you’d spam phants starting from the non-sword -> sword -> disenchanter -> siggy of Ether for recharge -> sword -> disenchanter -> non-sword -> blurred frenzy etc. and they should be near dead anyway.

For soloing champs, that’s where you’d need to pay attention to using defensive skills, while kinda pressing all the offensive ones off CD (since you don’t take SoE it the ‘rotation’ doesn’t exist anymore). However if you’re not soloing or an leeroy enthusiast like me, you can go all out and do the [raid/frac opening rotation](https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/mesmer/chronomancer/power/) in entirety, and make up for the rest of remaining health while trying to survive at the same time :smiley:

85% crit chance is fine, raid-wise, the missing % is from food, banners and spotter, which give ~4.7% each. There might be missing a 2% for optimisation, though I don’t think it’s that necessary.

When it comes to druid-y shenanigans, what I like doing is taking a trip to the Domain of Kourna and then getting Solar Beamed for 4k by Awakened Olmakhan Lifebinders. Although I do play glass and rightfully deserve to get hit that hard, I just have to think, ‘hawt dam, what would I kill to have this?’ :sunglasses:

Sometimes I cry when pve mobs get blatantly stronger skills than us players. At least name it something different, like ‘Greater Solar Beam’ :cry:

Ahh yes... the raiding scene where players are usually blessed with a duo chrono setup. I must apologise since I initially wasn’t aiming to look very far into raids. This was from my original post :lol: :

> where dps chronos in non-raid conditions

I don’t think it needs to made any clearer that the more offensive version of boon chrono falls flat outside of this environment since it kinda has to supply the two important boons solo. However, it exists and has to be considered.

I was gonna discuss boon chrono dps before, but after scrounging around in the forum earlier, I ended up finding what I was gonna say in some thread about [‘chronos running 1551 toughness’](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/72972/full-minstrels-meta-on-chrono-needs-to-stop#latest) (forgot how to link sry :smile:). It is outlined that boon chrono currently has the worst dps out of the dps support options, who sit at ~22k-26k. Although, I’m not sure whether 26k quickbrand and 22k alacrigade can 100% uptime their respective boons, tacking on 10% to 18-20k (numbers given) puts IA boon chrono in that range, which seems fine IMO. Considering how much offensive gear it runs, this really isn’t unreasonable; it’d also be unusual for anet to explode over 22-23k since they consciously decided to add diviner/offensive support gear stats themselves.

Of course boon chronos would still want to run DT where possible in optimal situations to achieve higher dps, but this is still stuck at 27k (as given) where, coming back to my original post, requires raid-like conditions @ 100% slow uptime (which by design of a duo chrono comp is annoyingly already met). I hope these numbers aren’t defective by things like dropping alacrity or WoR for Disenchanter, because by then we’re considering a more offensive chrono build where it *should* get to do higher dps, and golem bosses shouldn’t really change that fact.

If you still disagree with the DT dmg transfer, there’s still another main point I raised in this thread that requires addressing. The first point I made, as you know was:

> Danger Time is too strong for a single trait (especially as a master tier trait that can then be paired with Chronophantasma). This was addressed by proposing a potency split, transferring the much needed crit chance to a much more accessible and universal core traitline.

The other one was:

> Danger Time works best when the chrono themselves do not contribute any slow since it loses dps when building for slow. **This requires 2 other players playing specific builds** (unless already a boon chrono going for highest dps). I have not pushed for any solutions for this yet.

I can see why the trade off might look cool and all, but I personally really don’t like having a massive chunk of my dps potential dictated by whether I have enough allies that can spare themselves to run slow just for *me*. The change in its current form just makes that chunk smaller, whilst also bringing core (and consequently power mirage too) up as a side bonus. Yes, IA boon chrono will see a ~2k golem dps increase and the trade off for taking DT smaller; apart from PvP, this is probably the only PvE issue that would arise. Regardless, both parties will still take DT when aiming for the highest numbers, which currently is fairly restricted to raids anyway, where specialised situations and somewhat guaranteed comps exist.

It would also appear that the firebrigade is slowly surpassing the chrono duo comp, which *will* hurt DT builds since slow can’t be guaranteed, so maintaining boon chrono’s status quo might actually work both ways :tongue:.

> @"tim.4596" said:

> > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > This is actually my main point I * should * be really dancing around.

> > > My biggest gripe about the trait isn’t [only] about the overall power of trait, but more about how the chrono contributes effectively nothing or very little (at a cost of CC) to the slow uptime required for such a massive dmg increase (at least in high end PvE).

> > IMO, chronophantasma isn’t actually all that bad; it’s the combination of Csplit + Chronophantasma that creates the main distinction between core and chrono, since it provides burst for a class that doesn’t already have noticeable one. The chrono gets to do its ‘superburst’ twice in its meta benchmark, which inflates its dps in a way; what we don’t see is that core mes has actually a similar sustained dps vs IA chrono via a higher dmg per hit basis, since it is able to use flat dmg% mods from Domi/Illu. Chronophantasma is not the same as a generic dmg% mod - the damage is spread out, which makes chrono quite inefficient at dealing with enemies that go down quickly and or switching targets, due to how more reliant chrono is at building up dps through phantasms. Chronophantasma w/o any other dmg trait doesn’t make it much more stronger than core aside from the ‘burst’ (which actually comes from Csplit), thus my prior suggestion to allow chrono for ONE dmg trait only (located all at grandmaster tier).

> >

> > Danger Time adds a massive insult to injury since I’ve explained it’s practically a flat out ~20% increase in dps, *completely* defeating the advantage of having the third core traitline. **This means the replacement traitline that core drops for chrono has to have an equal overall +20% dmg increase simply because of this trait**. In fact, all three traitlines that that core takes would actually have to give ~20% dmg just to compete with the current version Danger Time.

> >

> > The main change I am looking at is transferring some of the potency of Danger Time into a core traitline that dps power builds are most likely to use, but also to alleviate the amount of additional precision any power mesmer has to gear since core does not have any access to additional crit chance% enhancing traits or skills (where every other profession has at least one). The precision famine is becoming so bad that mes has to take nearly *full* assassin gear, or assassin gear *on top of* thief runes. I don’t mean to completely delete Danger Time as of yet, but I would say that it absolutely cannot coexist with chronophantasma, and I would personally give Danger Time the boot since it increases dmg almost the same way every other traitline does, making chrono ‘a mesmer that deals the same dmg, now with Csplit.’

> >

> > Although I guess I could be okay with **DPS Chrono(with slow) > DPS Mesmer > DPS Chrono (without slow)**, I proposed in another thread that I’d rather prefer **DPS Chrono (uses Csplit effectively) > DPS Mesmer > DPS Chrono (who stuffs up or ignores Csplit)**, while also giving mes specific scenarios where it just trumps the chrono (practically any fight that isn’t a golem boss fight). *Chrono gives you the tools to be a better mesmer, but if you don’t/can’t use it properly, you’re better off using core.*

> >

> > If you want to keep Danger Time:

> > > This trait will always suffer from the fact how slow uptime is either not very acessible, or possibly too accessible (e.g. in a raid scenario). In order to address this, chrono needs natural access to slow, or the conditions needs to be more lenient, e.g. apply boon/condition or deal x% increased dmg when you are ‘faster’ than your opponent (quickness > normal > slow); but its effectiveness needs to decrease to compensate for the increased accessibility.

> > Basically, it can’t be broken stupid at max potential (where you don’t even provide any slow), and it can’t be total garbage at minimal potential. It needs to have more of a middle line, in other words.

>

> I disagree, DT damage modifier is well where it is currently at. You are forgetting a core factor in your analysis which is the current choice which boon Chronomancer have to take. DT or IA (Improved Aalacrity) if such a massive damage modifier becomes accessible in the chrono core specialisation, boon Chronomancer damage will be too busted, and they will end up nerfing something else.

>

> While I would love for boon chrono to do more damage i still like the trade off which you have to choose from in order to run a more damage oriented builds.

Whilst I do understand the point which you are coming from, I would appreciate some performance numbers (even if they are super-rough) to gauge the impact of the change I am proposing. Whilst anyone could say, 'boon chrono will be buffed so it might not work,' I'd rather *see* if the buff does actually bring it overboard, and then identify and maybe propose solutions to problems highlighted.

I don't play boon/support chrono, so I can't really gauge the dmg output of the build myself. If rough figures are needed, I would consider 'bustedness' as the current boon chrono surpassing 25k while doing their support rotation with all of SoI, WoA and WoR/mimic and maintaining ~60%+ boon uptime, if a 8-10% dmg increase were added. The dmg increase also varies depending on how much assassin pieces you replace, otherwise it becomes a reliability thing since increasing crit chance doesn't theoretically increase max dps; it just becomes more reliable.

If the dmg does become too problematic, then I could list reasons why this might be happening and suggest further ideas for changes, but I'll leave that until later.

> @"Me Games Ma.8426" said:

> Stacking fullzerk quickness chronos for maximum dps and quickness uptime could become a thing as all of them could take WoAction and TW for dps there could once again be a raid meta completely dominated by Power Chronomancers now with quickness for everyone.

In practice guard and ren are theoretically capable of something similar, organise 5 fb’s with Potent Haste, or 6 guards to run FMW! and there’s perma quickness (if only we had the PvP variant, then we’d only need 4 :cry:) or 4+ renegades to spam Orders from Above off CD for perma alacrity, so 5 DT chronos for perma quickness shouldn’t be that different. Even then, if the DT dps chronos are playing their spec right (according to suggested changes) their WoAs and TWs should theoretically align with each other, wasting some uptime since you can only stack 5 durations of quickness at a time. Additionally, with consideration that the alteration to DT should place pchrono back at 32-34k max, there’s really no need for concern since the pchrono raid team meme only existed since DT chrono previously had 40-42k dps, which got cut back to 35-37k; a number that is still higher than majority of other dps options. As soon as it drops below ~34k, it shouldn’t really be an issue anymore.

The issue that I’m encountering the most with this new DT approach however, is that w/o fairly significant buffs to the ‘hit’ on slow or slow application, DT chrono is still very similar to core/chronophantasma with the SoE/MoP/disenchanter/x setup, with WoA instead of defender or Mirror Images in the ‘x’ slot. Even Gravity Well is *still* a better pick than TW. Of course, it would be very simple to buff the numbers of the ‘hit’ component, but the current skills with slow/CC would still have trouble competing with MoP or the SoE/disenchanter combo.

Another suggestion from my bizarre bank of ideas:

> One of the traits is changed to make ethereal fields inflict 1s slow per second on opponents standing in them. However, paired with DT/LT, this may result in range of uncalculated consequences, e.g.

> - TW becomes a killer, proc’ing that ‘hit’ *15* times

> - The ‘other’ wells (excluding heal) become possible replacements for dps utilities. *WoA becomes even more dangerous*

> - Ethereal fields from other skills become dps skills - i.e Null Field, Feedback (that PvP CD split again...), Chaos Storm... Tides deals even more dmg now with even more slow

> - So basically I’ve created a WvW bomb and or area denial spec for chrono (a.k.a Scourge Mk II) by accident... nerfs are most likely required at this point

This ^ is probably why I shouldn’t be allowed to brainstorm possible ideas.

> @"Lunateric.3708" said:

> Whatever they (devs) do to eventually address power Chrono better not be an instinctive, knee-jerk reaction towards the current benchmarks. It's true it's a high number but it's also true the peak of its burst takes so disgustingly long to wind up for a power class that things like DH, soulbeast and Weaver still have the upper hand for shorter phase fights.

>

> I think your approach on giving the crit chance portion of the trait to core Mesmer is on point, I also think danger time as a whole should emulate what retal traits on the radiance traitline for DH do: benefit for a boon that you are able to readily apply, in this case slow for Chrono should be more readily available in PvE is what I mean.

>

> I sincerely want them to sensibly balance here, would hate it if they completely gut power Chrono.

Before I was quite distracted by the Danger Time changes that @"Me Games Ma.8426" proposed, I was intending to leave chrono at a very decent 33k, and to somehow make core mesmer more suitable in shorter phase fights since it doesn’t have to spend as much time casting phantasms, and isn’t as reliant of them. Alternatively, this new DT chrono may be the answer that we may be seeking for, although it wasn’t really part of my original idea.

> My biggest gripe about the trait isn’t [only] about the overall power of trait, but more about how the chrono contributes effectively nothing or very little (at a cost of CC) to the slow uptime required for such a massive dmg increase in PvE.

>

> The main change I am looking at is transferring some of the potency of Danger Time into a core traitline that dps power builds are most likely to use, but also to alleviate the amount of additional precision [that] any power mesmer has to gear...

EDIT: Markdown wasn’t being nice to me...

> @"Me Games Ma.8426" said:

> I think there is a way to address this topic.

> What would you say if we got these changes:

> * Danger Time: Decrease Crit and put more crit into Dueling. Add an effect to slow itself (e.g. slow is more potent, lasts longer, etc.) slightly increase critical damage boost (possibly from 15% to 20%).

> * Swap Lost Time and Danger Time

>

> What would happen is a coexistence of two kinds of Chrono builds, one that ideally runs Lost Time and Danger Time and focuses on slow uptime and dps and one thst focuses on phantasm spam via Chronophantasma.

> Depending on adjustable numbers they'd be able to balance like this:

> 1. Chronophantasma (uses CS effectively)

> 2. Danger Time (uses CS effectively)

> 3. Core Mesmer

> 4. Danger Time (ignores CS)

> 5. Chronophantasma (ignores CS)

>

> What do you think?

The points are mostly good, except that:

- Danger Time still seems to have that interaction where it’s best used where others apply the all of the slow so the chrono can take all the dmg utilities (the generic SoE/MoP/disenchanter/x setup); however, dps chronos would not be as hindered since they could just take the other option (chronophantasma) so I’m not overly fussed about this approach. On the other hand, I would actually like to see DT chronos being most effective when they bring their own slow, and have a different rotation and key skills compared to core and chronophantasma (which is practically core anyway with more buttons to press).

- The Lost Time and Danger Time swap seems like an interesting idea since they appear to go hand-in-hand (could potentially count Delayed Reactions as well since it’s fairly similar). That being said, it would probably be easy to assign traits in the adept/master tier to increase access to/effectiveness of slow, but load all the damage into the the grandmaster tier because w/o further changes, we now have a chrono who has access to both Lost Time and chronophantasma, which might be okay in PvE, but probably isn’t in PvP :astonished:

- One thing I would further suggest is to remove the dmg from Lost Time and somehow implement it into Danger Time - possibly by dealing dmg for each application of slow rather than each disable. On top of this, there could still be some dmg% increase on slowed enemies, but the main focus of this trait should be attempting to apply slow itself and not have to piggyback on other players (gamemode splits may be required).

This is actually my main point I * should * be really dancing around.

> My biggest gripe about the trait isn’t [only] about the overall power of trait, but more about how the chrono contributes effectively nothing or very little (at a cost of CC) to the slow uptime required for such a massive dmg increase (at least in high end PvE).

IMO, chronophantasma isn’t actually all that bad; it’s the combination of Csplit + Chronophantasma that creates the main distinction between core and chrono, since it provides burst for a class that doesn’t already have noticeable one. The chrono gets to do its ‘superburst’ twice in its meta benchmark, which inflates its dps in a way; what we don’t see is that core mes has actually a similar sustained dps vs IA chrono via a higher dmg per hit basis, since it is able to use flat dmg% mods from Domi/Illu. Chronophantasma is not the same as a generic dmg% mod - the damage is spread out, which makes chrono quite inefficient at dealing with enemies that go down quickly and or switching targets, due to how more reliant chrono is at building up dps through phantasms. Chronophantasma w/o any other dmg trait doesn’t make it much more stronger than core aside from the ‘burst’ (which actually comes from Csplit), thus my prior suggestion to allow chrono for ONE dmg trait only (located all at grandmaster tier).

Danger Time adds a massive insult to injury since I’ve explained it’s practically a flat out ~20% increase in dps, *completely* defeating the advantage of having the third core traitline. **This means the replacement traitline that core drops for chrono has to have an equal overall +20% dmg increase simply because of this trait**. In fact, all three traitlines that that core takes would actually have to give ~20% dmg just to compete with the current version Danger Time.

The main change I am looking at is transferring some of the potency of Danger Time into a core traitline that dps power builds are most likely to use, but also to alleviate the amount of additional precision any power mesmer has to gear since core does not have any access to additional crit chance% enhancing traits or skills (where every other profession has at least one). The precision famine is becoming so bad that mes has to take nearly *full* assassin gear, or assassin gear *on top of* thief runes. I don’t mean to completely delete Danger Time as of yet, but I would say that it absolutely cannot coexist with chronophantasma, and I would personally give Danger Time the boot since it increases dmg almost the same way every other traitline does, making chrono ‘a mesmer that deals the same dmg, now with Csplit.’

Although I guess I could be okay with **DPS Chrono(with slow) > DPS Mesmer > DPS Chrono (without slow)**, I proposed in another thread that I’d rather prefer **DPS Chrono (uses Csplit effectively) > DPS Mesmer > DPS Chrono (who stuffs up or ignores Csplit)**, while also giving mes specific scenarios where it just trumps the chrono (practically any fight that isn’t a golem boss fight). *Chrono gives you the tools to be a better mesmer, but if you don’t/can’t use it properly, you’re better off using core.*

If you want to keep Danger Time:

> This trait will always suffer from the fact how slow uptime is either not very acessible, or possibly too accessible (e.g. in a raid scenario). In order to address this, chrono needs natural access to slow, or the conditions needs to be more lenient, e.g. apply boon/condition or deal x% increased dmg when you are ‘faster’ than your opponent (quickness > normal > slow); but its effectiveness needs to decrease to compensate for the increased accessibility.

Basically, it can’t be broken stupid at max potential (where you don’t even provide any slow), and it can’t be total garbage at minimal potential. It needs to have more of a middle line, in other words.

If anything comes close, you’d probably start building from a core mes power dps setup, which is domi (2-2-2) duel (1-3-1) illu (1-2-1) and runs sw/sw and sw/f. Because it’s less reliant on illusions (phantasms) than chrono, replacing illu with mirage seems like the most logical choice, but at the cost of more frequent shatters.

For (power) mirage, you’d probably take 1-1-3, and for slot skills: SoE, MoP, disenchanter, defender and jaunt. Rotation is pretty similar to core mes - opening is spam all phantasms and SoE to spam them again, and then wail on your target with every other dmg skill you have while remembering to shatter @ 3 clones. Distortion amusingly becomes an offensive skill since you shatter three mirrors (provided you remember to pick all of them up) and proc dune cloak 4 times. Spam Jaunt whenever for extra dmg and clones, or replace with moa for cc or time warp for a depressing ~10% quickness uptime. Although you take dune cloak, don’t bother using dodges offensively since the sword ambush is garbage for dps.

Provided you do things ‘right’, you become a core mes v2.0. Your key strengths are being able to rip trash mobs apart using a burst combo (sword phantasm + illusionary leap + blurred frenzy + jaunt + power spike + mind wrack), mobility from mirage thrust, all the mes related skips if you know and bother to do them, but you ultimately fail at maintaining competitive dps on the boss unless your group is pretty bad since your at like a 5-7k benchmark disadvantage.

Contrary to belief, it may actually be better than pchrono at lower level fracs since the enemies don’t last as long, particularly for t2 and t1 recs. I actually do run core mes to deal with trash mobs at higher tiers sometimes so it definitely is still usable *somewhere*, just not everywhere.

Tell us how it goes :smile:.

Once a fairly useless trait, Danger time is now a inconsistently powerful trait that can grant up to a ~20% dmg increase depending on how much slow uptime **your allies** can maintain in PvE. This has resulted in fairly bloated raid benchmarks (35-37k), where dps chronos in non-raid conditions/with poor slow uptime (due to a lack of *specific allies*) and non-DT builds suffer from a similar ~20% dps gap, wallowing in the dumps along with the seemingly non-existent power herald (=< ~30k dps, even worse than reaper and the new power zerker).

**20% dmg increase?**

At first glance anyone could see the 10% dmg modifier under slow; however, the 15% increase in crit chance (previously 30%) allows the chrono to take 315 additional power, a ~9% increase in power under raid conditions (boons, banners, food effects etc.). This is of course, assumes near 100% uptime on slow (supplied by **2** support chronos and or condi renegades, and not the pchrono themselves).

My biggest gripe about the trait isn’t about the overall power of trait, but more about how the chrono contributes effectively nothing or very little (at a cost of CC) to the slow uptime required for such a massive dmg increase (at least in high end PvE).

**Recap:**

- DT pchrono @ 35-37k

- Non-DT pchrono @ =< ~30k

- Core mes hovering somewhere @ ~25k.

At the dawn of this new tradeoff era (if it even exists?), it would sensible to lessen the gap between core and chrono (25k v 37k) to make core mes somewhat more of a competive choice in PvE, and not just PvP. This comes with the proposal to rip the crit chance increase from DT and place it back into core, allowing all current and future power dps builds to not take as much assassins gear, especially with the decline of external precision granted by allies (spotter and banner nerfs). A few examples of ways to implement this:

- Thematically speaking, a crit chance increase belongs in the condi/crit traitline, which would appear to be Duelling.

- The increase is slapped on to Master Fencer. Alternatively, the effectiveness of fury is doubled on the Mesmer and their illusions (Rolling Mists v2). The fury is then moved to Phantasmal Fury to work like the skill Phantasmal Haste.

- ~315 precision somehow replaces the ferocity in Fencer’s Finesse in its current or another reworked form.

- Any other reasonable suggestions.

**What happens to Danger Time?**

This trait will always suffer from the fact how slow uptime is either not very acessible, or possibly *too* accessible (e.g. in a raid scenario). In order to address this, chrono needs natural access to slow, or the conditions needs to be more lenient, e.g. apply boon/condition or deal x% increased dmg when you are ‘faster’ than your opponent (quickness > normal > slow); but its effectiveness needs to decrease to compensate for the increased accessibility. IMO, dps chrono doesn’t require anymore dmg buffs outside of Chronophantasma and Lost Time (and maybe another competing trait to replace Seize the Moment) if core mes is to stay anywhere near competitive - the removal of such dmg traits would likely place the balance between core and chrono closer to 27k vs 32-33k, which appears much more manageable, while still leaving pchrono at a fairly decent spot.

**WHAT ABOUT PVP???**

Now I am completely aware that PvP builds such as power mirage and oneshot builds etc. that stem from core probably don’t deserve anymore dmg buffs from this proposed change, but I am not very well-versed in that gamemode since I don’t play it (the closest I’ve been is WvW). I do feel as though it’s a design problem with mesmer with its access to instacasts and other skills in order to build up dmg very quickly, but I’ll have to leave the necessary counter-nerfs to the PvPers to decide, preferably in the form of gamemode skill splits.

Even though certain especs are theoretically yet to get tradeoffs, IMO, they shouldn’t be dished out simply for the sake of having ‘tradeoffs’ (like what druid and DD ‘tradeoffs’ seem to many ppl), unless they are very well thought out. In other specific cases, tradeoffs don’t even appear to be completely necessary; the espec mechanic in question could actually be fairly balanced due to being subject to a few years’ worth of patches. Alternatively, a few additional proper changes/nerfs/buffs to certain traits or skills can create tradeoff required between specs.

However, if ‘good’ tradeoffs are to be implemented, whole espec mechanics and or traitlines may have to be reworked to ensure the tradeoff is obvious and can be felt in any situation, not just instinctive PvP nerfs. e.g:

- Instead of a just 600 range unblockable Steal, the items obtained by using Swipe and how the skill works could bring out the brawler nature the devs had intended by picking DD. Daredevils will not ‘just shadowstep’ and find items such as Throw Junk or Blinding Tuft; instead they could quickly dash *through* their opponent, obtaining skills that actually assists the DD in staying toe-to-toe and in melee range against their opponent, rather than having to rely on stealth and or disengage. Core stolen skills appear outdated however and probably require buffs (perhaps changes to make them more hit-and-run compared DD’s)

- If the issue with druid was that the pet was essentially doing the stuff for the druid while the druid just sustained both of them, they could’ve ‘celestialtised’ the pet(s) to be like a tanky perma clone that can still inflict condis and cc (cases like attack of opportunity could allow pet to do normal damage). That way, the dmg output needs to be transferred back onto the druid themselves, where they can’t attack while healing/supporting vice versa and a combination of interesting changes could arise from this approach, while a tradeoff is still present in all situations and builds.

The above are just random suggestions. In the end however, I believe the devs should probably drop or slow down this tradeoff act, no matter how good or logical it may sound, until or unless they are actually ready to make rework level or universally impactful changes.