Noodle Ant.1605

Anet doesn’t like IP on chrono through (0 clone OOC Csplit + free dry shatters, and the idea of ‘espec trade offs’... ugh) and despite restoring IP fixing a multitude of problems, they’d probably rather keep it the way it is.

Though if they do this, it would only be fair for chronos are allowed to petition for clones to be invulnerable or persist somehow (maybe they just continually resummon themselves or stop/freeze when ‘destroyed’, etc.).

Making chrono reliant on slow is like forcing a square brick in to a round hole, it won’t work unless slow is as abundant as on the end of every auto chain, F1, phantasm cast etc. (note that the mesmer would do these things *naturally*). The only problem is that it would be broken in pretty all game modes.

It just doesn’t work because the condition is meant to be both rare and powerful, and because of that it *appropiately* comes in a few skills and short durations - short durations which are all stacked on one target and fails to be transferred to the next, and can otherwise be easily cleansed given that power builds, not condi ones, rely on it the most.

So when we discuss Danger Time and Split Second (basically F1 with in-built DT), the only things that interact with slow (so no, chrono does not actually ‘focus on slow’), as the names suggest these were supposedly meant to capitalise on short slow durations. As such, I don’t believe they were ever truly designed for perma/high uptimes of slow (DT would be *obscenely* strong for Master tier). Nevertheless, these ‘opportunities’ were best achieved with the previous iteration of Lost Time - slow on CC, **no ICD**, and where the opponent was correctly positioned to be in a moment of *‘danger’*.

Hence, whilst I’d rather advocate for chrono’s reliance on slow to be significantly devalued (so that the spec can work at least 99% without it), should chrono ever need more slow output, only the previous Lost Time functionality should be returned - meaning that Delayed Reactions completely loses its ICD. Having even more slow thrown around would only leave chrono in a more disastrous state than it is now.

Maybe instead of completely disagreeing with radical changes, I’ll provide feedback for once. Thus, from a PvEr’s perspective (who mains pChrono):

> @"AzureInvidiaOnline.6789" said:

> **My goal for Chronomancer :**

>

> * Wells: Making them more useful per pulses.

Think this is something everyone can agree on.

> * Shatters: Revert the illusion requirements for the shatter skills, make the illusions shatter right away instead of finding a target(illusions whos not been shattered will still try to approach the target). Shatter skills and illusions shattered(only if inside the affected area) also apply damaging effects to the user. This opens up new ways to play Chronomancer without butchering Shatter Skills.

Okay... when you say ‘apply damaging effects to the user’, do you mean the shatter effect or the actual dmg component? If it’s the latter, this implies that chrono shatters should be changed to holoforge levels.

> **Chronomancer:**

>

> * Minor Adept: Time Bomb - (reworked)Removed Continuum Split. Gain access to Continuum Shift, reverting back to the previous timeline. Your health, endurance and cooldowns are reverted to their previous states, number of illusions affects how much time will revert the user from its previous timeline(1 illusion= 3 secs ago, 2 illusions = 4 secs ago, 3 illusions = 5 secs ago)Cannot be used if there is no illusion to shatter. Reverting will remove active phantasms as well. Chronomancer shatter skills and shattering illusions also affect the user.

A different way to Csplit I guess? Removing phantasms is a huge hit to PvE chrono players though.

> * Major Adept: (Removed Delayed Reactions) Out of time - Shatter skills give 1 sec of superspeed in a 240 radius(5 targets)around you. Next phantasm skill inflicts 1 sec of slow and applies 2 secs superspeed to the phantasm created.

> * Major Adept: Time Catches Up(reworked) - Gain 3 sec of regeneration,swiftness and quickness when you get alacrity. Regeneration and Swiftness effectiveness increased by 20%. (15 secs cd.)

> * Major Adept: All's Well That Ends Well - Increased number of pulses and duration by 1.

Superspeed was given to shattering clones so that shatters became harder to avoid. Phantasms probably need superspeed the least because they don’t move very much. Other changes are kinda meh or seem PvP oriented and I can’t say much about.

> * Minor Master: Flow of Time(moved) - Gain alacrity for each clone you shatter.

> * Major Master: (Removed Danger Time) Time Heist - Interrupting a foe slows them and grants you 1 sec quickness and alacrity.(5 sec interval/cd)

> * Major Master: (Removed Illusionary Reversion)Time Relativity - Applying slow or chill to a foe gives 3 seconds of superspeed to nearby allies(5 targets) around you.(10 secs cd, 20 secs cd wvw)

> * Major Master: Time Marches On(reworked)(moved) - Gain damage reduction while having each boon effects(alacrity, quickness,superspeed or swiftness).(5% each, 3% wvw/pvp)

Only 1s quickness + alacrity? With an added ICD? On interrupt?

There’s a lot of superspeed being thrown around in here, doesn’t mean much for PvE but you might want to be careful of how it interacts in PvP.

More bunker for a supposedly already bunker-ish spec. I don’t PvP so I can’t comment. :confused:

> * Minor Grandmaster: Improved Alacrity - Alacrity applied to you is stronger but has a reduced duration. (moved)

> * Major Grandmaster: Time Lock(reworked) - Gain a charge each time you disable a foe. At max charge your next disable inflicts twice the duration and deals a non-critical damage. Charges 3(wvw/pvp 5)(charge duration 20 secs/ 10 secs wvw/pvp, triggering another charge resets the duration)

> * Major Grandmaster: (Removed Seize the Moment) Time Dilation - Enemies you inflicted with slow and chill receive twice the effect with lesser duration.

> * Major Grandmaster: Chronophantasma - Summon additional phantasm. The additional phantasm does not turn into illusion. (50% less dmg on wvw/pvp)

Discount Lost Time (a whole lot weaker), effect wasted against stability. WIP idea?

‘Twice the effect’ - chill basically stops CDs and becomes another immob and slow practically stops the opponent from doing anything with a cast time at all. Seems a bit broken unless it’s like -80% duration.

So more nerfs to Chronophantasma and another hit to PvE chronos. (What does this even address?)

> **Skills**

>

> Utility:

> * Well of Action: (Reworked) - Now gives allies 3 secs of superspeed per pulse(duration resets on same target each pulse). Break stuns and receive 2 secs stability on initial cast. Removed damaging effects.

Drop this well to run away?

> * Well of Calamity:(Reworked) - Now applies damage each pulses and one of each conditions randomly for 1 sec: cripple, weakening, immobile, slow and chill. Replaced increased damage at final pulse for 1 sec daze.

New RNG well. I think this will see less use than it already does. Unless the player is a heavy gambler and tries to use this with the new Time Dilation.

> * Well of Precognition: (Reworked) - Now blocks projectiles for the duration of the well. Each pulse gives 1 sec stability. Receive 10% damage reduction buff for 3 secs at final pulse. Removed break stun capability.

Sounds appropriate... maybe?

> * Well of Recall:(Rework) - Now applies 2 secs quickness per pulse. Removed damaging effects and applies 5 secs alacrity at final pulse.

So StM was removed in favour for this and the ‘effect once unique to chrono’ - alacrity, still eats it with the ‘stand in this place for 3s’.

> Elite:

> * Well of Time(removed Gravity Well): - Creates a well that removes stability to foes each pulse and converting movement-impairing conditions to foes into daze(1 sec) per pulse. Enemies float for 1 sec at final pulse and additionally applies 1 sec knockdown only at affected enemies whos been affected by float. Replaced damaging effects per pulse into increased damage at final pulse, targets affected by float/knockdown with this skill receives additional damage. Increased skill cooldown from 90 to 120.

Only applies second CC if CC’ed by the first. Only applies extra dmg if CC’ed by the second CC, which only happens when CC’ed by the first. Otherwise removes stability but does nothing else. (What does this even address?)

> Shield:

> * Echo of Memory:(Reworked) - Block incoming attacks for a short duration. If this skill fully channels, summon a phantasm that slows enemies and grants protection to allies. If an attack is blocked, apply 5 secs quickness to nearby allies while also making Deja Vu usable for a short time.

> * -Deja Vu: Block incoming attacks for a short duration. If this skill fully channels, summon a phantasm that slows enemies and grants protection to allies. If an attack is blocked, apply 5 secs alacrity to nearby allies.

Randomly buffing bunker capabilities, ok cool.

> * Tides of Time: (Reworked) Launch a wave of temporal energy that damages and stops enemies it passes through while also making your illusions pushing away from you. When the wave returns it also drags your illusion towards you. Reduce recharge by 5 secs for each illusions shattered for the duration.

I don’t know of any situation where you’d actively want to move your phantasms with this skill. Recharge thing is weird because I assume the ‘touch returning wave to reduce CD’ is removed, and apparently getting illusions shattered in PvP/WvW is ‘difficult’ (What does this even address?)

> **Mirage fix attempt idea(any):**

>

> 1. Remove the ability to use Mirage Cloak if affected by crowd control effects. (Unless Elusive Mind is traited)

This is ok.

> 2. Receive increased incoming damage debuff for 1 sec after using Mirage Cloak.(duration and effect stacks)

Mirage - Dodge to die edition.

> 3. Decrease Vitality and Toughness by 100.

I’m pretty sure people have suggested many really good fixes to mirage right now, this isn’t necessary.

> **Core & Elite Spec Mesmer change:**

>

> * When affected by Distortion reduce all outgoing damage to 0% for the duration.(includes illusions/phantasms damage).

Big troll to any mesmer who ‘accidentally’ uses a 3 clone Distort to save their bacon, suddenly they’re non-existent for the next 4s. Weren’t shatters meant to be more effective the more clones shattered?

> **Signets**

>

> * Signet of Inspiration: Moved to Elite slot. Signet Passive: Grant swiftness to nearby allies and an additional random boon every ten seconds.

> Signet Active: Move all your current boons to allies.(2 secs each boons, affected by boon duration)(stacked boons like stability only applies half)(mesmer will lose all its current boons). Increased recharge to 60 secs.

> * Signet of Humility: Moved to utility slot. Signet Passive: Reduces duration of incoming stuns, dazes, fears, and taunts by 10%.

> Signet Active: Transforms your foe into a moa bird for 2 secs. (Defiant foes will have their defiant bar reduced instead.). Reduced recharge to 40 secs.

You can do this (the 60s CD for a better SoI) without the position switch. Also, moa signet becomes domination signet v2. (What does this even address?)

Was this meant to be a PvP oriented change? Did you actually address your listed goals? Was a entire rework necessary to achieve these goals? Because you’ve axed a lot of things that probably didn’t need to be axed, and buffed some things that really didn’t need buffing.

> @"ThomasC.1056" said:

> the devs are aiming at "putting everything back in line", which means "nerf everything"

> As for the damage values, keep in mind that it's a context where every damage should be toned down for everyone.

Balance is achieved through numerical changes (dmg, condi intensity and dura, CD...), not mechanical. You can dramatically ‘shake up’ balance by changing mechanics, but the effectiveness changing of mechanics always vary since the numerical values can be set from 0 to infinity (e.g. -50% nerfs).

Which makes more sense - changing mechanics to balance, or balancing around (fixed) mechanics?

If it’s inherently broken or makes balance easier, then sure, make mechanical changes. But as soon as you’re talking about ‘damage’ or ‘pressure’, this is the no-go zone. You are doing what they love doing and making balance unnecessarily more broken and harder to fix (i.e. no IP chrono, when they already made chrono-specific shatters with their own dmg/condi/dura/CD + actually interesting gameplay effects like Rewinder to play with).

> The other option is to accept your doom, and suggest something.

>

> Being said that infinite horizon and mirage cloak will probably get something unpleasant in the near future, I just made that suggestion.

Being as far as a *suggestion* goes, how about *suggesting* less drastic changes? How about, ‘IH - clones only ambush when you ambush’? Remove evade while stunned? Maybe *suggest* shatters to be split from core so they can be balanced separately, but not suggest the janky ‘command’ system just yet?

> @"Quadox.7834" said:

> 1. Remove chronophantasma, it simply clutters the screen, makes clone gen even slower and clunkier, and interacts too much with other phantasm traits (doubling their effectiveness) which throws core mesmer balance out of whack.

>

> This makes no sense because:

> a) the problem is that chronophntasma doubles the effectiveness of traits like phantasmal force which is kitten and should never happen because it necessecitates those traits being completely useless without chronophantasma, which should be obvious.

I know a comment made with a PvP bias when I see one, and I generally don’t respond to them for obvious reasons, but when you bold the words, ‘remove Chronophantasma’ without adding additional details like ‘PvP-only’ or ‘compensate by adding this’, a large amount of people are not going to agree unless you hit all the right buttons. Which you haven’t yet.

In your initial post and your reply, you stated, ‘the problem is that chronophantasma doubles the effectiveness of traits’. If this is the main problem, then let me suggest an alternative that isn’t as destructive as completely axing the whole thing:

*Related traits proc on successful phantasm skill use, NOT on phantasm creation.*

PvErs like me might actually be able to agree with this. Also, Phantasmal Force is a horrible example as the second phantasm doesn’t even do anything to make the trait any more effective than if used on core (it might actually be potentially weaker w/ chronophantasma).

Another point you raised up is screen clutter. When fellow mesmer players are complaining that the 50% dmg reduction means you can largely ignore the second phantasm, ‘clutter’ isn’t really a strong reason to delete the whole trait from the entire game. However, if you do really need to address this point, maybe instead allow the opponent to determine whether the second phantasm is produced - e.g. the second phantasm is produced only if the original one successfully lands a hit on the target (note how this suggestion has more of an effect in PvP compared to PvE).

Third point, it slow clone generation. Seeing how this a minus for the chrono, this completely fails to be a viable reason to remove the trait, when there’s still the choice of not taking the trait at all. This was why people who were paying attention were reacting to the Lost Time change not so long ago. Turns out it was a trait that they shouldn’t really have touched without considering the consequences.

Apart from Chronophantasma, all the other points are fine as they currently stand.

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> Edit: Dps chrono benches 33.7k when going improved alacrity over DT. Dps firebrand benches 33.1k when it has no allies to give ashes to. There is no way a solo heal firebrand is ever going to beat a dps chrono unless you are intentionally nerfing yourself.

Do you have an actual bench for this (the IA pchrono)? IMO, it seems a bit off and the number looks suspiciously the same as a bench done in Nov 2018... (before a fair amount of nerfs happened btw)

The absolute highest bench I believed it would ever reach atm would be 30-31k, but probably realistically hover around 30k or less.

> IP

If they wanna keep the ‘shatters require clones to activate’ then chrono definitely needs *a* way to retain their profession resource (either clones or clone shatter level).

Otherwise, IP or riot.

> Chrono shatters

Currently inferior copies of core shatters with slapped-on effects to make them seem more powerful. Where is the chrono theme? What makes these worth losing IP and Distortion?

- There is no ‘split second’ in Split Second.

- Rewinder makes sense.

- Time Sink should focus on making the opponent waste time, rather than just only making them slower (which can be passively/easily cleansed anyway).

- Csplit also fits but still needs some serious QoL, for both the chrono and the opponent.

There’s definitely other areas for complaint, but IMO these two strike as the most obvious when discussing chrono + trade offs.

When someone offers a semi-decent idea which is actually somewhat agreed upon, but then when the devs try to implement it they only remember <10% of the entire suggestion, accidently breaking the spec instead.

A change probably needs to happen at some point, but the feedback will undoubtedly be... unpredictable.

I * can’t * do benchmarks, but by using my favourite method of dps ‘projection’, I can provide rough numbers for certain power builds. If all that is changed from a duel/illu chrono dps build is cPhantasma -> StM:

- If slow can be maintained for DT, this would bench close to ~27k. Changing utilities to SoI + mimic (+ TW) while also ditching the opening burst would lower this to approximately ~25k, but it basically vomits out excess quickness (at least for a subgroup) at this point.

- If slow cannot be maintained, it would bench closer to ~21k (with SoI etc.). Because DT is replaced with either IA or IR, which both results in more shatters, this build vomits out *even more* quickness than the above.

Discussion of StM is still taking place, but it has been suggested that the quickness ‘vomit’ chrono (power or condi) is placed in its own subgroup, since the boons are already likely to overflow.

If you wanna tack on alacrity and or the insp line however, that’s when figures can get a bit inaccurate.

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> Chrono can too sacrifice utility slot for more slow but it is true that its much bigger loss. Not as much in dps but in burst which is why chrono is powerful. Slightly incresing no slow damage would be great but that doesnt mean that power chrono is bad by any means.

Well, since my inquiry about the topic of chrono and it’s reliance on slow has come to some conclusion, I can only hope this shows that further changes to this specific aspect is still desired, rather than accepting and leaving it in its gimmicky state. While the interaction could and maybe perhaps should exist, it is currently not in an ideal state since one thing is still being indiscriminately nerfed/in an indiscriminately nerfed state for the sake of another.

> And I ment 10k dps. The reason is this. Standard composition is support chrono, alacrity renegade, druid, warrior, quickbrand and rest dps. If you take enough DHs, you can replace quickbrand by another DH since feel my wrath from dragonhunters will be enough to cover all quickness that quicknrand was there for. That is one of the reasons why DH is extremly strong right now. Because you can have 1 more DPS in squad.

Careful about elaborating on DH, you’re still addressing the OP’s question as well. This just makes DH sound flat out better than chrono, maybe except when slow’s thrown in... :wink:.

I do consider stacking DH’s or chronos to remove the need of a quickness support as a well-thought decision in group composition, but until the slow issue is addressed, I wouldn’t really consider this an actual feature for personally choosing to play chrono atm.

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > > > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > > > > And relying on specific condition is a good thing since it leaves options for theory and optimalization.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I just find this point extremely hard to agree with.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > When there’s a massively powerful trait that hinges heavily on the presence of a condition, and you don’t even build around it (instead forcing others to build around you), what does that say about playing chrono? That you’re more of a selfish dps hog than other dps specs? You’re sacrificing others’ dps/utility to trait for slow so that you can do more dps while you’re epically failing to trait for it yourself? What kind of counterintuitive design is this?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Was it fair that the no-slow version of chrono, who was ‘average’ and decent beforehand, was nerfed in favour of balancing an obviously unstable build whose viability is dependant on the viability of other specs?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > As I mentioned in another thread, all that this reliance is doing is pigeonholing chrono into a position where it will need to rely on slow to do anything anywhere. Supporting its existence doesn’t help change the problem. OW pve, wvw, pvp... what’s a power build when it can simply be countered by condi cleanse?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Would a viable no-slow build and another build that has a only small advantage (5-7%) using slow been more acceptable than the ‘slow or trash’ scenario we have today?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Since you mentioned ‘options’, would it be acceptable to have the reliance of slow as an option in itself (for ‘theory and optimisation’, as you said), whilst having another perfectly viable, slightly weaker option that isn’t so bogged down by this slow or trash issue? Wouldn’t that theoretically ‘leave *more* options for theory and optimisation’?

> > > > >

> > > > > No slo power chrono (with IA) or just solo chrononwith DT is still good. Not best option but close. Just DT pulls the class to first position on certain fights.

> > > >

> > > > What do you mean by ‘close’? One’s way above reaper (a.k.a the spec that ppl call ‘low dps’ for some reason) whilst the other is below it.

> > > >

> > > > > And you look at squad as 10 times solo player. Then yes. It is selfish trait.

> > > > > But squad is 1 team. Its like saying that dps counting on 25 might from other source is bad design

> > > >

> > > > 25 might is different story. It is general utility that is applied to and is helpful for the whole group. Other boons are similar. At the very least, these conditions are already catered for in the first place.

> > > >

> > > > Slow pretty much does nothing other than ignorable breakbar dmg, and is mainly applied only when DT chrono players exist (not even for +dmg% traits per condi such as on thief or engi).

> > > >

> > > > And it’s also a boring free dmg% increase, because it isn’t forcing the chrono to do anything.

> > >

> > > If your squad is only chronos then slow benefits whole squad.

> > > Yea, it is not optimal at all to run IA but it is still decent (if you count scourge decent for example)

> > >

> > > Chrono provides some slow alone. Even without other power chronos, usualy you have decent uptime on danger time. Far from ideal but it is there.

> > >

> > > Edit: and reaper doesnt have low dps. Problem is that it has very bad burst for power dps

> >

> > Which leads back to the problem and all the comments made by others about chrono only working best when 7 of them are present.

> >

> > Still, is the huge dps discrepancy between slow and no-slow really that acceptable? Or alternatively, what is your opinion on the ‘slow or trash’ issue?

> >

> > No one’s also seemed to have mentioned that the spec already relies on AI which can make or break the spec depending on the situation.

> >

> > The overall answer to the OP’s question from all these responses so far would still be: not in competitive gamemodes, and only compared to low tier specs in pve (because it is one) or in hardcore solo OW, unless slow is very conveniently supplied by others (applicable in raids and world bosses only). So basically - no, unless you specifically like the theme or want to be special.

>

> In my opinion this kind of balance (at least in raids) is bad. If all classes are on same number everywhere then one is best because it has unique mechanic others dont. Then there is no reason to take the others.

> Take ele for example. It used to be that skills dealt more damage based on size of the hitbox. This was great because on big bosses it shined but on smaler one it wasnt as good because others were more flexible with sama damage. After change it is either top dps by alot everywhere or it is usless everywhere because it provides nothing else then damage unlike others.

> Because of those nieche situations like boss atack speed, boss movement, duration of phases, diferent toughness, detonate plasma and damage per boon traits, flanikng, cleave there are diferent there are more options. Take it away and there will be only 1.

Think you might have mistook me for someone else/forgot to quote some other person. My line of argument is ‘slow chrono vs no-slow chrono’, not ‘all builds should be able to do the same dmg’.

For context, I intended for the no-slow variant to be raised back to 5-10% *below* the slow variant which kept intact as it currently is. Would you be inclined to disagree, and if so, why?

> Also dragonhunters share the same "problem". They are stronger, the more you have.

> They work with specific boon, retal in this case, but they cannot get 100% uptime alone. Guess who provide more retal? You guessed it, other dragonhunters.

> Also if you take enough of them you get up to 10k dps because of Feel my wrath stacking. Is this problem too?

DH is still different in that it’s meta build already gets 65% uptime by itself (or *at the very least* 40%, not including alacrity or fractal potion conversion), compared to chrono’s measly 13.33%. If the DH player really wants, they can technically sacrifice <5% dps for one utility that will grant them the remaining ~7% dps from retal. Meanwhile, chrono doesn’t have much tools to budge that low uptime without sacrificing questionable amounts of dps.

You also only theoretically need 2 DHs to reach 100% efficacy, compared to 7 chronos. Boons also stick on you, so if target switching is ever required, DH isn’t quite as destroyed. And you raised up Detonate Plasma..

‘10k dps’? Did you mean something else?

No ones (or at least I’m not) arguing about stacking chronos to obtain perma quickness uptime, just only the slow component and it’s relative rarity.

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > > And relying on specific condition is a good thing since it leaves options for theory and optimalization.

> > > >

> > > > I just find this point extremely hard to agree with.

> > > >

> > > > When there’s a massively powerful trait that hinges heavily on the presence of a condition, and you don’t even build around it (instead forcing others to build around you), what does that say about playing chrono? That you’re more of a selfish dps hog than other dps specs? You’re sacrificing others’ dps/utility to trait for slow so that you can do more dps while you’re epically failing to trait for it yourself? What kind of counterintuitive design is this?

> > > >

> > > > Was it fair that the no-slow version of chrono, who was ‘average’ and decent beforehand, was nerfed in favour of balancing an obviously unstable build whose viability is dependant on the viability of other specs?

> > > >

> > > > As I mentioned in another thread, all that this reliance is doing is pigeonholing chrono into a position where it will need to rely on slow to do anything anywhere. Supporting its existence doesn’t help change the problem. OW pve, wvw, pvp... what’s a power build when it can simply be countered by condi cleanse?

> > > >

> > > > Would a viable no-slow build and another build that has a only small advantage (5-7%) using slow been more acceptable than the ‘slow or trash’ scenario we have today?

> > > >

> > > > Since you mentioned ‘options’, would it be acceptable to have the reliance of slow as an option in itself (for ‘theory and optimisation’, as you said), whilst having another perfectly viable, slightly weaker option that isn’t so bogged down by this slow or trash issue? Wouldn’t that theoretically ‘leave *more* options for theory and optimisation’?

> > >

> > > No slo power chrono (with IA) or just solo chrononwith DT is still good. Not best option but close. Just DT pulls the class to first position on certain fights.

> >

> > What do you mean by ‘close’? One’s way above reaper (a.k.a the spec that ppl call ‘low dps’ for some reason) whilst the other is below it.

> >

> > > And you look at squad as 10 times solo player. Then yes. It is selfish trait.

> > > But squad is 1 team. Its like saying that dps counting on 25 might from other source is bad design

> >

> > 25 might is different story. It is general utility that is applied to and is helpful for the whole group. Other boons are similar. At the very least, these conditions are already catered for in the first place.

> >

> > Slow pretty much does nothing other than ignorable breakbar dmg, and is mainly applied only when DT chrono players exist (not even for +dmg% traits per condi such as on thief or engi).

> >

> > And it’s also a boring free dmg% increase, because it isn’t forcing the chrono to do anything.

>

> If your squad is only chronos then slow benefits whole squad.

> Yea, it is not optimal at all to run IA but it is still decent (if you count scourge decent for example)

>

> Chrono provides some slow alone. Even without other power chronos, usualy you have decent uptime on danger time. Far from ideal but it is there.

>

> Edit: and reaper doesnt have low dps. Problem is that it has very bad burst for power dps

Which leads back to the problem and all the comments made by others about chrono only working best when 7 of them are present.

Still, is the huge dps discrepancy between slow and no-slow really that acceptable? Or alternatively, what is your opinion on the ‘slow or trash’ issue?

No one’s also seemed to have mentioned that the spec already relies on AI which can make or break the spec depending on the situation.

The overall answer to the OP’s question from all these responses so far would still be: not in competitive gamemodes, and only compared to low tier specs in pve (because it is one) or in hardcore solo OW, unless slow is very conveniently supplied by others (applicable in raids and world bosses only). So basically - no, unless you specifically like the theme or want to be special.

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > And relying on specific condition is a good thing since it leaves options for theory and optimalization.

> >

> > I just find this point extremely hard to agree with.

> >

> > When there’s a massively powerful trait that hinges heavily on the presence of a condition, and you don’t even build around it (instead forcing others to build around you), what does that say about playing chrono? That you’re more of a selfish dps hog than other dps specs? You’re sacrificing others’ dps/utility to trait for slow so that you can do more dps while you’re epically failing to trait for it yourself? What kind of counterintuitive design is this?

> >

> > Was it fair that the no-slow version of chrono, who was ‘average’ and decent beforehand, was nerfed in favour of balancing an obviously unstable build whose viability is dependant on the viability of other specs?

> >

> > As I mentioned in another thread, all that this reliance is doing is pigeonholing chrono into a position where it will need to rely on slow to do anything anywhere. Supporting its existence doesn’t help change the problem. OW pve, wvw, pvp... what’s a power build when it can simply be countered by condi cleanse?

> >

> > Would a viable no-slow build and another build that has a only small advantage (5-7%) using slow been more acceptable than the ‘slow or trash’ scenario we have today?

> >

> > Since you mentioned ‘options’, would it be acceptable to have the reliance of slow as an option in itself (for ‘theory and optimisation’, as you said), whilst having another perfectly viable, slightly weaker option that isn’t so bogged down by this slow or trash issue? Wouldn’t that theoretically ‘leave *more* options for theory and optimisation’?

>

> No slo power chrono (with IA) or just solo chrononwith DT is still good. Not best option but close. Just DT pulls the class to first position on certain fights.

What do you mean by ‘close’? One’s way above reaper (a.k.a the spec that ppl call ‘low dps’ for some reason) whilst the other is below it.

> And you look at squad as 10 times solo player. Then yes. It is selfish trait.

> But squad is 1 team. Its like saying that dps counting on 25 might from other source is bad design

25 might is different story. It is general utility that is applied to and is helpful for the whole group. Other boons are similar. At the very least, these conditions are already catered for in the first place.

Slow pretty much does nothing other than ignorable breakbar dmg, and is mainly applied only when DT chrono players exist (not even for +dmg% traits per condi such as on thief or engi).

And it’s also a boring free dmg% increase, because it isn’t forcing the chrono to do anything.

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> And relying on specific condition is a good thing since it leaves options for theory and optimalization.

I just find this point extremely hard to agree with.

When there’s a massively powerful trait that hinges heavily on the presence of a condition, and you don’t even build around it (instead forcing others to build around you), what does that say about playing chrono? That you’re more of a selfish dps hog than other dps specs? You’re sacrificing others’ dps/utility to trait for slow so that you can do more dps while you’re epically failing to trait for it yourself? What kind of counterintuitive design is this?

Was it fair that the no-slow version of chrono, who was ‘average’ and decent beforehand, was nerfed in favour of balancing an obviously unstable build whose viability is dependant on the viability of other specs?

As I mentioned in another thread, all that this reliance is doing is pigeonholing chrono into a position where it will need to rely on slow to do anything anywhere. Supporting its existence doesn’t help change the problem. OW pve, wvw, pvp... what’s a power build when it can simply be countered by condi cleanse?

Would a viable no-slow build and another build that has a only small advantage (5-7%) using slow been more acceptable than the ‘slow or trash’ scenario we have today?

Since you mentioned ‘options’, would it be acceptable to have the reliance of slow as an option in itself (for ‘theory and optimisation’, as you said), whilst having another perfectly viable, slightly weaker option that isn’t so bogged down by this slow or trash issue? Wouldn’t that theoretically ‘leave *more* options for theory and optimisation’?

Updated initial post for the October 1 2019 patch.

Same thing but colourless.

Maybe just a tiny bit of green.

Barrier is also the same (same visual but colourless).

> @"Nepster.4275" said:

> DT should not be changed, and should not even be moved, it only gives 15% crit chance and 10% damage, there are traits on other classes that are the same if not better, and they are not grandmaster line either.

It’s a straight up ~20% dps boost, not sure of other non-grandmaster traits that do the same, but the main gripe is that the chrono using it does literally nothing to contribute to the slow uptime. Or alternatively, it just doesn’t exist at all :smile:

Also, it’s the DT + Chronophantasma (~20% & ~25%) put together which makes chrono comparatively busted to core (which means future especs will need to be blown up similarly to compete). A change I’ve been asking for some time now is for a simple crit chance boost for core mes, which can be ripped off from/at least devalues DT, with the current intention of preventing chrono from being trash given low uptime on such a rare condition.

> And since you were building your opinion on SC site, and said its doing way above avg dps, it isnt, if you take the top 10 dps classes and their DPS, the avg number is 36949, chrono is 36474(if we take the grinded numbers, with avg numbers maybe it would get higher than avg but its still not way above it, not even talking about the slow depency)

This isn’t me personally speaking, but all power specs beneath pchrono’s number would like to have a word, despite being better in different ways. We are often portrayed as delusional whenever discussing the unpromising state of chrono, since that number exists.

> My overal opinion about pChrono is that its fine, just like mirage, its used on some bosses for abusing it, doesnt really work on others.

Not sure what to think. pChrono is heavily dependant on both boss AND comp. Given that the spec already doesn’t perform the same across different bosses/encounters (sometimes horribly so), I would at least like to reduce the dependency on having slow just to simply do ‘viable’ dps.

If mirage is capable of doing almost the same amount of dps as no-slow pchrono on a stationary golem that doesn’t move or attack (no confusion and torment dmg bonus and also ideal conditions for the pchrono), I would treat this issue as something worth considering. Moving DT with LT was just a one of many possible suggestions to address the bigger picture.

> @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> They actually forgot to disable that elite spec

They still need something for players to put in upcoming build templates :grimace:.

Not sure if this is intentional, but there’s an alternate route upon encountering the third frog.

Instead of going the obvious ‘planned’ route, you can jump across to the frog (when it’s not spewing water) where you’ll eventually see some stairs. You can jump from these stairs to the archway where one of the *ancient grothmar coins* is/was placed (may need to jump through bushes, just jump alongside the wall). Continuing on from these route, you can skip to the lily pads near the vista and backtrack to the 3rd checkpoint.

May be helpful to explore the route first before trying it out for real.

If Illusionary Inspiration was more decent, that would technically fit the bill. Although an excuse for why it isn’t is probably because Restorative Mantras and All’s Well That Ends Well exists. And Restorative Illusions is basically what you’ve described, but only on the mesmer.

But ScEpTeR hEaLeR cHrOnO amirite?

...Next patch, it might actually exist though. Perma quickness scepter healer chrono with the new Seize the Moment :astonished:

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > > > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > > > > > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > > > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > > > > > > @"Noodle Ant.1605"

> > > > > > > Why would they make any of the changes you suggested? An "abomination" must be an oddity before its reined in.

> > > > > > > https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > DT pchrono is stacked about equally to DH in raids. And much less when you count fractals.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > And if you are just using benchmarks, condi scourge has less dps than soulbeast, and warrior, both of which can bring important effects with no boon duration.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Your post reads more like a complaint about general power creep leaving necromancer behind than anything specific to mesmer.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It is understandable but maybe suggest a buff in the necromancer sub forum instead of singling out one of the many, many, many builds that out perform that spec.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It’s just a number. Did you know that pchrono without DT is also trash tier dps spec? Do you want me to replace that scourge with pchrono, because it basically proves the same point?

> > > > >

> > > > > Did you know that cmirage without IH is also not optimal? Its almost like builds take traits that favour them.

> > > >

> > > > Why are you comparing DT to IH? One procs every time he mirage dodges, whereas the other only *exists* for like what, maybe 5% of the game

> > > >

> > > > > There are variants of the pchrono dps builds, so why should I care if they all use DT. And pchrono without DT doesn't have to be dps. I hear pchrono support is top tier.

> > > >

> > > > DT pchrono was a mistake. Dps pchrono without DT is considered trash tier and unviable, because they nerfed it from viability for no reason.

> > > >

> > > > Why don’t you play another spec since they are definitely not returning IP anytime soon? Why should I care about your IP if what I play isn’t affected by it? /s.

> > > >

> > > > > > It also seems like you missed these two points:

> > > > > > > - You promised to update some of weapon traits, especially the ones that give bonus stats. Well, Fencer's Finesse screams HELLO, since other similar traits give +120 ferocity PASSIVELY and another easy +120 for just equipping it. What's this measly +150 that can only be obtained by stacking hits beforehand only using the appropriate weapon?

> > > > > > > - Core mesmer is the only core profession with absolutely NO way to increase its crit chance, especially given that you've butchered external sources of precision. The amount of assassin's gear needed to reach the crit cap is plain stupid.

> > > > >

> > > > > I know of no such promise. And they can worry about core after they spend the development time fixing chrono in WvW and spvp.

> > > >

> > > > [Wow, I found it.](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/62731/game-update-notes-december-11-2018)

> > > >

> > > > > we're continuing to update weapon traits to offer more meaningful options when players are not using the related weapons while also enhancing those weapons' playstyles if the player is using them

> > > >

> > > > Seem like they just forgot about it. Totally unexpected /s.

> > > >

> > > > Development time is not a currency. If so, they are definitely not spending it efficiently. They are intentionally choosing to leave chrono as is.

> > > >

> > > > Besides, if DT was moved to grandmaster, it has all the reason in the world to be as broken as it needs to be, to fix chrono in competitive gamemodes even without the need to pointlessly plead for IP to be restored (cuz it really doesn’t look like it will).

> > > >

> > > > > > ANY power mes build CANNOT be buffed and until DT is addressed first. This includes future especs. It is an uninteractive dmg increase that is actually literally as strong as Chronophantasma. Why it sits in the master tier while it provides grandmaster tier effects is very highly questionable.

> > > > >

> > > > > That is your opinion and has no bearing on other especs, current or future.

> > > >

> > > > Core mesmer cannot be buffed because DT chrono will be buffed. Every espec stems from core mesmer which, if left in its current state, will only create broken especs and more QQ. It is ridiculously close to reaching a balanced state where all especs will be much easier to manage, and the denial of this path of least resistance is disappointing.

> > > >

> > > > > My opinion is your priorities are off. Stop asking for nerfs when we can't get basic stuff sorted.

> > > >

> > > > DT is an infection that has just been left to worsen and kitten the development of chrono. It needs to be addressed. Tbh, this actual, proper nerf wouldn’t affect anyone unless they plan to or are already abusing the brokenness of DT, and desperately holding on it is only dooming chrono to die.

> > >

> > > So this is all about core, not "future especs". Are you free to play or something?

> > >

> > > There is no brokenness. Pchrono is stacked less than DH. And slightly more than Deadeye.

> > >

> > > You don't care about mesmer being viable in multiple game modes. You care about not having to buy Heart of Thorns. Saying things like "future especs" is nonsense.

> > >

> > > This isn't a deceptive evasion situation where the class mechanic is being limited. All professions pick as many modifiers as they can for dps builds. To diverge from that is a choice.

> > >

> > > Mesmer's viability in each game mode is more important than whether a dps chrono can take improved alacrity.

> >

> > *Are you actually kidding me?*

> >

> > I main dps pchrono, I KNOW how it works. And I just happen to have observed that ever since Danger Time got changed to its abominable state (42k bench when it was first released, mind you) chrono has just eaten nerf after nerf *because hey look that trait is sooooo viable* (P.S don’t take it outside of raids, it’s *useless*).

> >

> > Damage modifiers are one thing. When they take effect is another. When people are rebutting with Snowcrow’s DT pchrono (‘It’s higher than many other power specs, blah blah w/e’) in anything but organised raids, I cringe - because if you take that build anywhere else, you do as much dps as core mes, wow. Both IA and IR are 95% more useful than DT in terms of dps simply because of the slow requirement.

> >

> > You know why DT chronos aren’t stacked? It’s because it *doesn’t work*. How about we get rid of it and work with the things that *do work?* That’s why it’s an infection - 42-38-37k looks REAL BIG, but what happens if the chrono can’t demand perma slow from its group? It doesn’t exist. Trash tier dps.

> >

> > If DT worked really well in PvP (which it doesn’t really) then maybe I’d reconsider, but then slow on CC (pre-patch Lost Time) was just shafted and... oh wait, why aren’t you calling reverts on that too? And if DT was moved to grandmaster... you have all the flexibility in the world to make a PvP spec viable.

> >

> > Maybe stop throwing out ridiculous assumptions and actually find ways to fix your precious spec *outside of futilely begging for IP to be restored?* To me, you sound like someone’s whose still bawling their eyes out after the chrono trade off and really, the best solution is for you to stop playing it. But how in the world does me insulting you help the state of chrono at all?

> >

> > *And why are you even so against this specific change even though it actually fixes the spec in some way?*

>

> What fix? They are incompetent at buffing things following a nerf. All that will happen is dps chrono instead of being meta in raids will be meta in nothing. The trait would simply be gone and there would be no recourse.

>

> For this reason, I don't care if DT doesn't work very well in PvP and people are forced to use Mirage. At least Mesmer is viable in that game mode.

>

> You see buffing Seize the Moment as an affront to dps scourge. I see it as a a step towards fixing well dependency.

>

> Why must we lose more things? At this point only lateral trades or buffs are tolerable.

Have you accidentally become dangerously attached to the trait now? If so, I can’t say I feel sorry because either you saw that change and didn’t think ‘this won’t last forever’ or that you’re foolishly wanting to hold onto the trait so that chrono can continue dying.

‘No recourse’ - that’s what you think. I think it’s because they see a big fat viable trait that doesn’t need any compensation. Maybe we should stop thinking and having opinions thanks /s.

Where did I say that I didn’t approve of the Seize the Moment buff? Did you not see the ‘Danger Time’ attached to it? Without DT, it would deal closer to 23-24k and that’s a lot more acceptable in my eyes.

Big edit:

I forgot to quote :sweat_smile:.

DT is part of the recourse. Or are these continuous string of nerfs the recourse of DT?

Moving DT isn’t all about PvE dps. It stops them from thinking that chrono offense *needs* to be slow-centric, which is absurd. Split Second’s bonus and Time Sink come into mind.

Many of us can agree the trade offs are incomplete, compensation-wise (without DT), especially the really uninteresting shatters. How about planning from there instead of denying the fixing something else that’s destroying the spec, since it’s half obvious any change won’t be rolled out until the next 3 months?

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > > > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > > > > @"Noodle Ant.1605"

> > > > > Why would they make any of the changes you suggested? An "abomination" must be an oddity before its reined in.

> > > > > https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

> > > > >

> > > > > DT pchrono is stacked about equally to DH in raids. And much less when you count fractals.

> > > > >

> > > > > And if you are just using benchmarks, condi scourge has less dps than soulbeast, and warrior, both of which can bring important effects with no boon duration.

> > > > >

> > > > > Your post reads more like a complaint about general power creep leaving necromancer behind than anything specific to mesmer.

> > > > >

> > > > > It is understandable but maybe suggest a buff in the necromancer sub forum instead of singling out one of the many, many, many builds that out perform that spec.

> > > >

> > > > It’s just a number. Did you know that pchrono without DT is also trash tier dps spec? Do you want me to replace that scourge with pchrono, because it basically proves the same point?

> > >

> > > Did you know that cmirage without IH is also not optimal? Its almost like builds take traits that favour them.

> >

> > Why are you comparing DT to IH? One procs every time he mirage dodges, whereas the other only *exists* for like what, maybe 5% of the game

> >

> > > There are variants of the pchrono dps builds, so why should I care if they all use DT. And pchrono without DT doesn't have to be dps. I hear pchrono support is top tier.

> >

> > DT pchrono was a mistake. Dps pchrono without DT is considered trash tier and unviable, because they nerfed it from viability for no reason.

> >

> > Why don’t you play another spec since they are definitely not returning IP anytime soon? Why should I care about your IP if what I play isn’t affected by it? /s.

> >

> > > > It also seems like you missed these two points:

> > > > > - You promised to update some of weapon traits, especially the ones that give bonus stats. Well, Fencer's Finesse screams HELLO, since other similar traits give +120 ferocity PASSIVELY and another easy +120 for just equipping it. What's this measly +150 that can only be obtained by stacking hits beforehand only using the appropriate weapon?

> > > > > - Core mesmer is the only core profession with absolutely NO way to increase its crit chance, especially given that you've butchered external sources of precision. The amount of assassin's gear needed to reach the crit cap is plain stupid.

> > >

> > > I know of no such promise. And they can worry about core after they spend the development time fixing chrono in WvW and spvp.

> >

> > [Wow, I found it.](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/62731/game-update-notes-december-11-2018)

> >

> > > we're continuing to update weapon traits to offer more meaningful options when players are not using the related weapons while also enhancing those weapons' playstyles if the player is using them

> >

> > Seem like they just forgot about it. Totally unexpected /s.

> >

> > Development time is not a currency. If so, they are definitely not spending it efficiently. They are intentionally choosing to leave chrono as is.

> >

> > Besides, if DT was moved to grandmaster, it has all the reason in the world to be as broken as it needs to be, to fix chrono in competitive gamemodes even without the need to pointlessly plead for IP to be restored (cuz it really doesn’t look like it will).

> >

> > > > ANY power mes build CANNOT be buffed and until DT is addressed first. This includes future especs. It is an uninteractive dmg increase that is actually literally as strong as Chronophantasma. Why it sits in the master tier while it provides grandmaster tier effects is very highly questionable.

> > >

> > > That is your opinion and has no bearing on other especs, current or future.

> >

> > Core mesmer cannot be buffed because DT chrono will be buffed. Every espec stems from core mesmer which, if left in its current state, will only create broken especs and more QQ. It is ridiculously close to reaching a balanced state where all especs will be much easier to manage, and the denial of this path of least resistance is disappointing.

> >

> > > My opinion is your priorities are off. Stop asking for nerfs when we can't get basic stuff sorted.

> >

> > DT is an infection that has just been left to worsen and kitten the development of chrono. It needs to be addressed. Tbh, this actual, proper nerf wouldn’t affect anyone unless they plan to or are already abusing the brokenness of DT, and desperately holding on it is only dooming chrono to die.

>

> So this is all about core, not "future especs". Are you free to play or something?

>

> There is no brokenness. Pchrono is stacked less than DH. And slightly more than Deadeye.

>

> You don't care about mesmer being viable in multiple game modes. You care about not having to buy Heart of Thorns. Saying things like "future especs" is nonsense.

>

> This isn't a deceptive evasion situation where the class mechanic is being limited. All professions pick as many modifiers as they can for dps builds. To diverge from that is a choice.

>

> Mesmer's viability in each game mode is more important than whether a dps chrono can take improved alacrity.

*Are you actually kidding me?*

I main dps pchrono, I KNOW how it works. And I just happen to have observed that ever since Danger Time got changed to its abominable state (42k bench when it was first released, mind you) chrono has just eaten nerf after nerf *because hey look that trait is sooooo viable* (P.S don’t take it outside of raids, it’s *useless*).

Damage modifiers are one thing. When they take effect is another. When people are rebutting with Snowcrow’s DT pchrono (‘It’s higher than many other power specs, blah blah w/e’) in anything but organised raids, I cringe - because if you take that build anywhere else, you do as much dps as core mes, wow. Both IA and IR are 95% more useful than DT in terms of dps simply because of the slow requirement.

You know why DT chronos aren’t stacked? It’s because it *doesn’t work*. How about we get rid of it and work with the things that *do work?* That’s why it’s an infection - 42-38-37k looks REAL BIG, but what happens if the chrono can’t demand perma slow from its group? It doesn’t exist. Trash tier dps.

If DT worked really well in PvP (which it doesn’t really) then maybe I’d reconsider, but then slow on CC (pre-patch Lost Time) was just shafted and... oh wait, why aren’t you calling reverts on that too? And if DT was moved to grandmaster... you have all the flexibility in the world to make a PvP spec viable.

Maybe stop throwing out ridiculous assumptions and actually find ways to fix your precious spec *outside of futilely begging for IP to be restored?* To me, you sound like someone’s whose still bawling their eyes out after the chrono trade off and really, the best solution is for you to stop playing it. But how in the world does me insulting you help the state of chrono at all?

*And why are you even so against this specific change even though it actually fixes the spec in some way?*

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > > @"Noodle Ant.1605"

> > > Why would they make any of the changes you suggested? An "abomination" must be an oddity before its reined in.

> > > https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

> > >

> > > DT pchrono is stacked about equally to DH in raids. And much less when you count fractals.

> > >

> > > And if you are just using benchmarks, condi scourge has less dps than soulbeast, and warrior, both of which can bring important effects with no boon duration.

> > >

> > > Your post reads more like a complaint about general power creep leaving necromancer behind than anything specific to mesmer.

> > >

> > > It is understandable but maybe suggest a buff in the necromancer sub forum instead of singling out one of the many, many, many builds that out perform that spec.

> >

> > It’s just a number. Did you know that pchrono without DT is also trash tier dps spec? Do you want me to replace that scourge with pchrono, because it basically proves the same point?

>

> Did you know that cmirage without IH is also not optimal? Its almost like builds take traits that favour them.

Why are you comparing DT to IH? One procs every time he mirage dodges, whereas the other only *exists* for like what, maybe 5% of the game?

> There are variants of the pchrono dps builds, so why should I care if they all use DT. And pchrono without DT doesn't have to be dps. I hear pchrono support is top tier.

DT pchrono was a mistake. Dps pchrono without DT is considered trash tier and unviable, because they nerfed it from viability for no reason.

Why don’t you play another spec since they are definitely not returning IP anytime soon? Why should I care about your IP if what I play isn’t affected by it? /s.

> > It also seems like you missed these two points:

> > > - You promised to update some of weapon traits, especially the ones that give bonus stats. Well, Fencer's Finesse screams HELLO, since other similar traits give +120 ferocity PASSIVELY and another easy +120 for just equipping it. What's this measly +150 that can only be obtained by stacking hits beforehand only using the appropriate weapon?

> > > - Core mesmer is the only core profession with absolutely NO way to increase its crit chance, especially given that you've butchered external sources of precision. The amount of assassin's gear needed to reach the crit cap is plain stupid.

>

> I know of no such promise. And they can worry about core after they spend the development time fixing chrono in WvW and spvp.

[Wow, I found it.](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/62731/game-update-notes-december-11-2018)

> we're continuing to update weapon traits to offer more meaningful options when players are not using the related weapons while also enhancing those weapons' playstyles if the player is using them

Seem like they just forgot about it. Totally unexpected /s.

Development time is not a currency. If so, they are definitely not spending it efficiently. They are intentionally choosing to leave chrono as is.

Besides, if DT was moved to grandmaster, it has all the reason in the world to be as broken as it needs to be, to fix chrono in competitive gamemodes even without the need to pointlessly plead for IP to be restored (cuz it really doesn’t look like it will).

> > ANY power mes build CANNOT be buffed and until DT is addressed first. This includes future especs. It is an uninteractive dmg increase that is actually literally as strong as Chronophantasma. Why it sits in the master tier while it provides grandmaster tier effects is very highly questionable.

>

> That is your opinion and has no bearing on other especs, current or future.

Core mesmer cannot be buffed because DT chrono will be buffed. Every espec stems from core mesmer which, if left in its current state, will only create broken especs and more QQ. It is ridiculously close to reaching a balanced state where all especs will be much easier to manage, and the denial of this path of least resistance is disappointing.

> My opinion is your priorities are off. Stop asking for nerfs when we can't get basic stuff sorted.

DT is an infection that has just been left to worsen and gimp the development of chrono. It needs to be addressed. Tbh, this actual, proper nerf wouldn’t affect anyone unless they plan to or are already abusing the brokenness of DT, and desperately holding on it is only dooming chrono to die.

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> @"Noodle Ant.1605"

> Why would they make any of the changes you suggested? An "abomination" must be an oddity before its reined in.

> https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

>

> DT pchrono is stacked about equally to DH in raids. And much less when you count fractals.

>

> And if you are just using benchmarks, condi scourge has less dps than soulbeast, and warrior, both of which can bring important effects with no boon duration.

>

> Your post reads more like a complaint about general power creep leaving necromancer behind than anything specific to mesmer.

>

> It is understandable but maybe suggest a buff in the necromancer sub forum instead of singling out one of the many, many, many builds that out perform that spec.

It’s just a number. Did you know that pchrono without DT is also trash tier dps spec? Do you want me to replace that scourge with pchrono, because it basically proves the same point?

It also seems like you missed these two points:

> - You promised to update some of weapon traits, especially the ones that give bonus stats. Well, Fencer's Finesse screams HELLO, since other similar traits give +120 ferocity PASSIVELY and another easy +120 for just equipping it. What's this measly +150 that can only be obtained by stacking hits beforehand only using the appropriate weapon?

> - Core mesmer is the only core profession with absolutely NO way to increase its crit chance, especially given that you've butchered external sources of precision. The amount of assassin's gear needed to reach the crit cap is plain stupid.

ANY power mes build CANNOT be buffed and until DT is addressed first. This includes future especs. It is an uninteractive dmg increase that is actually literally as strong as Chronophantasma. Why it sits in the master tier while it provides grandmaster tier effects is very highly questionable.

Thanks for the heads up on the next patch, but it looks like you forgot a small change since you left us with these *abominations* for the next 3 months:

- **DT pchrono** still exists, doing way above average dps (37k) just because it relies on slow uptime *which it contributes 0% of*. Alternatively, you can stack 7 of these higher-than-average dps roles to maintain both perma-slow and perma-quickness for a whole raid squad without any boon duration investment, eliminating the need of a quickness support and achieving *unprecedented levels of dps*. pChrono shouldn't be doing ridiculous amounts of damage considering how easily it can generate its own boons, and its reliance on a condition it doesn't even apply seriously needs to be reviewed.

- **Danger Time + Seize the Moment** allows hybrid chronos to do almost as much damage as a dps condi scourge (28k) whilst providing almost perma-quickness for a subgroup/party with *no boon duration investment* (whilst under the same conditions for DT pchrono). Why play trash tier dps specs when you can do the same damage AND supply one the most important boons in the game at the same time???

- **Lost Time** doesn't deserve to exist in the grandmaster trait slot anymore, *especially with the 3s ICD*. It's now a complete garbage trait that doesn't even stand a chance against the other two, WAY more useful traits. I literally cannot see where it would be taken over Chronophantasma or the new Seize the Moment in a practical sense, EVER.

Doing this might also remind you that:

- You promised to update some of weapon traits, especially the ones that give bonus stats. Well, Fencer's Finesse screams HELLO, since other similar traits give +120 ferocity PASSIVELY and another easy +120 for *just equipping it*. What's this measly +150 that can only be obtained by stacking hits beforehand only using the appropriate weapon?

- Core mesmer is the only core profession with absolutely NO way to increase its crit chance, especially given that you've butchered external sources of precision. The amount of assassin's gear needed to reach the crit cap is plain *stupid*.

- Danger Time could be a lot more dangerous if it was placed a grandmaster slot. Lost Time is lost... it needs help.

- PvP chrono is still kinda dead from when you accidentally killed it, since this change won't even seem to matter.

- The changes that keep being released is only making mesmer more and more unbalanced and unnecessarily complicated. If changes were reverted back a year, mesmer would probably be A LOT more balanced than it is now and easier to change according to the meta. Changes don't need to be made for the sake of making new problems.

Leaving us with these only tells us that you *actually don't care about balance at all* and that all these repeated balance changes are meant to be treated as literal jokes. Having to wait in 3 month intervals, whilst pointing various valid areas of improvement and QoL, only to get meh changes like this simply feels depressing.

Was hoping that we’d get to provide some feedback about some of the changes like they *tried to* with WvW, especially considering the state that chrono is in, but that seems like a big nope now.