Noodle Ant.1605

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > If Life Transfer can hit for 3.7k non-crit, then the 4.3k crit Split Surge from the actual mesmer is fine, either they did an extremely coordinated bomb or the warr's armor/'dmg taken' calculation bugged out (in which case it is not a problem to do with mes).

> >

> > The 7.5k non-crit Split Surge appears to be an ultra-rare bug where dmg calculation for the clone casting it randomly messed up. TBH, the /wiki doesn't really have an accurate explanation of clone/illusions, so random things could possibly occur within this realm.

> Really weird things happen in WvW with the mesmers sometimes and I wonder how much with the clone generation thats broken. All those mesmers that seem to **projectile vomit** out clones... the other day we saw one that had 5 *downstate clones*. Yeah you read that correct. Counted them. I really have no idea how, it was just 1 mesmer. It would not surprise me if more things is broken.

Phantasms turn into downstate clones if the mesmer is downed (the mesmer could have used traited gs #4, staff #3 then downstate #2). The more surprising thing is whether the clone cap can be broken while downed (but downstate clones disappear when rallying anyway). This is just the extent of how little is explained about clone/illusion interaction.

Certain clones use different skills compared to the mesmer. Sword clones use 'Mind Stab' instead of Mind Spike and is actually a functionally different skill. Scepter clones use 'Bolt' instead of Ether Bolt but it does the same thing. Trident clones' Siren's Call does more dmg even on only 1 hit compared to spear clones' attacks even though its the other way around for the mesmer.

Then Split Surge is modified for clones so that it deals more dmg than normal. Instead of dealing 100 dmg total, it deals 10x times as much. How much do we actually know about illusions?

If Life Transfer can hit for 3.7k non-crit, then the 4.3k crit Split Surge from the actual mesmer is fine, either they did an extremely coordinated bomb or the warr's armor/'dmg taken' calculation bugged out (in which case it is not a problem to do with mes).

The 7.5k non-crit Split Surge appears to be an ultra-rare bug where dmg calculation for the clone casting it randomly messed up. TBH, the /wiki doesn't really have an accurate explanation of clone/illusions, so random things could possibly occur within this realm.

That 3.7k non-crit Life Transfer (1/9 hits) seems pretty fishy too.

If the skill can't be highlighted, it means that dmg was done by an illusion (a clone in this instance). Which makes things even more confusing.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Teefy.5016" said:

> > > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > > > @"Teefy.5016" said:

> > > > > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > > > > > @"Teefy.5016" said:

> > > > > > > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > > > > > > Information can be old/recycled and the section you read from could be written potentially ages before the existence of mirage.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Clones could always deal dmg. It’s just very negligible being < 100 dmg per hit, when other skills are able to hit over 4-24k.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Mirage axe clones can stack a reasonable amount of condition dmg, and is part of mirage’s apparent design where clones should be kept alive whenever possible for maximum benefit. Yes, you can have a build where you have 3 axe clones doing everything for you.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Keep in mind though that there are other professions and builds that are able to blow up enemies under 2s, so just having clones wail on the same enemy for over 10s is less than ideal.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > does this translate to: mirage is bad ?

> > > > >

> > > > > OP posed their argument in a way that made me assume they thought they could get away with using clones and afk (as it is proven they do 'reasonable' dmg). The answer is, you are able to use clones and afk, but it is suboptimal to do so.

> > > > >

> > > > > In comparison to other specs, mirage 'blows up' enemies by making the enemy blow themselves up with 12k ticks of confusion. Which you obviously can't do afk with 3 clones.

> > > >

> > > > i dunno. blowing up someone in 2 seconds sounds pretty good in comparison.

> > >

> > > I don't understand what you're trying to say. Mirage has its own way of dishing out as much dmg as possible within a limited time frame. AFKing with 3 clones is not one of them.

> > >

> > > Given the correct circumstances, Mirage is just as capable in blowing things up under 2s.

> >

> > im sorry for being unclear. i never for a moment thought being afk while 3 clones are attacking was going to be viable for blowing things up in 2 seconds.

> >

> > im bad at mesmer and mirage. that said, how would one go on about with blowing someone up in 2 seconds with mirage ?

> >

>

> you dont, the guy above is exaggerating

We're not on the same page here.

I drew context from the OP, they summoned a clone on an enemy and watched it 'do reasonable dmg'. If it were PvP, that clone would've been dead before it would have done anything meaningful. Hence, I constructed a scenario with 3 clones sitting on target for 10s *which wouldn't realistically happen in PvP*. So we're obviously talking about PvE. and if things are being destroyed in 2s, we're talking about trash mobs.

Hence why I'm using terms such as 'under 2s' (because you want that to happen). However, someone accidently(?) warped the conversation into PvP.

Hopefully we're all aware enough to remember that I could just cheat here and say 'power mirage'. It's still practically mirage. But I'm pretty sure everyone wants to know how to burst with **condi**, and I already said how - you stack so much confusion said mob ends up suiciding when it activates skills. Ofc it seems less practical than generic power dmg *but it's condi - what did you expect?*

> @"Teefy.5016" said:

> > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > > @"Teefy.5016" said:

> > > > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > > > Information can be old/recycled and the section you read from could be written potentially ages before the existence of mirage.

> > > >

> > > > Clones could always deal dmg. It’s just very negligible being < 100 dmg per hit, when other skills are able to hit over 4-24k.

> > > >

> > > > Mirage axe clones can stack a reasonable amount of condition dmg, and is part of mirage’s apparent design where clones should be kept alive whenever possible for maximum benefit. Yes, you can have a build where you have 3 axe clones doing everything for you.

> > > >

> > > > Keep in mind though that there are other professions and builds that are able to blow up enemies under 2s, so just having clones wail on the same enemy for over 10s is less than ideal.

> > >

> > > does this translate to: mirage is bad ?

> >

> > OP posed their argument in a way that made me assume they thought they could get away with using clones and afk (as it is proven they do 'reasonable' dmg). The answer is, you are able to use clones and afk, but it is suboptimal to do so.

> >

> > In comparison to other specs, mirage 'blows up' enemies by making the enemy blow themselves up with 12k ticks of confusion. Which you obviously can't do afk with 3 clones.

>

> i dunno. blowing up someone in 2 seconds sounds pretty good in comparison.

I don't understand what you're trying to say. Mirage has its own way of dishing out as much dmg as possible within a limited time frame. AFKing with 3 clones is not one of them.

Given the correct circumstances, Mirage is just as capable in blowing things up under 2s.

Spirit can be healed and exist indefinitely for a permanent +5% dmg boost. It can also be damaged and die prematurely.

The active skill does not ‘blow up’ the spirit.

The 6s only matters when you run out of the AoE/spirit dies, the buff gets reapplied (back to 6s) per interval within the AoE.

> @"Painbow.6059" said:

> But Herald has terrible burst damage which will make its DPS a lot lower than other power options irrespective of the benchmark number on multiple raid encounters, and though AP is a DPS increase for other power classes, it's not going to be that big of a difference to pugs, while high-end groups will likely require certain classes like Fbr or DH that also provide quickness.

TBH this thread doesn’t really have a good indication of what general situation we’re looking at, if you want to look at high-end where bursting actually happens, a number of other specs also become ‘not as good’ and herald being one of them would then be relatively normal.

> @"Virdo.1540" said:

> btw wouldnt forceful persistence be an dps decrease due to the lack of Facet of Nature - Shiro thats not hitting 10ppl anymore?

If 5 * the amount lifesteal per person > 2k, then yes? If we consider that though, we’d need to pump additional numbers into all of the listed dps, making herald appear even better than at first glance.

Then one could argue that as long as AP and these other interactions exist, power revenant will never be ‘good’ because for some unknown reason it needs to be weaker to account for the random dps boosts it coincidently brings.

**tl;dr: herald is only *situationally* good.**

Due to AP (Assassin's Presence), power herald can definitely be worthwhile in raids; when there is no other revenants bringing this trait, a herald can be considered as GOOD as it can bring ~1.5k additional dps per power dps role.

Boon herald has a bench of 28k. Assuming 5 other power dps, the boon herald's theoretical dps value is ~35k, while still bringing additional utility as a boonbot.

If there is no need for additional boons, the herald can run a more offensive build (Forceful Persistence instead of Draconic Echo), reaching a projected bench of ~30-31k. Again with 5 power dps, herald can potentially have a theoretical dps value of ~38k.

And if there is already a source of AP, a full dps herald can optimise for maximum personal dps to reach a projected ~32-33k, which isn't exactly 'high' but is still a solid number in comparison to other existing dps specs. However, this is possibly where it is simply outdone by condi ren.

Mesmer currently has *a number of different builds* in order to maintain effectiveness throughout a variety of different PvE situations.

Contrary to belief, the build that deletes open world trash mobs the fastest (and therefore possibly the easiest) is **core mesmer**, thanks to Mind Wrack actually having IP. The only ‘clunky bit’ would be its move speed, which is mostly counteracted by mounts anyway.

**IR Illu pChrono** is potentially the only spec in the game that can personally maintain nearly perma uptime of all offensive boons (might, fury, quickness, alacrity) on itself, making it a fairly independent spec that even brings group utility when pugging 5 man content and yet still has an acceptable max dps (~27k).

**DT pChrono** is used for obtaining the highest possible power dps (mostly only relevant in raids), although its flaws have already been pointed out earlier in this discussion (reliance on slow uptime).

**Mirage** is obviously used in condi-favoured encounters, and has been shown to be durable and still perform well when played defensively.

And then you have boon chrono and its variants, which have their own, fairly specific uses.

At this point of time, mesmer’s performance is fairly dependent on the build you bring - bring the right one to the right encounter and you will do well, bring the wrong one to the same encounter and you will suffer.

> @"Teefy.5016" said:

> > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > Information can be old/recycled and the section you read from could be written potentially ages before the existence of mirage.

> >

> > Clones could always deal dmg. It’s just very negligible being < 100 dmg per hit, when other skills are able to hit over 4-24k.

> >

> > Mirage axe clones can stack a reasonable amount of condition dmg, and is part of mirage’s apparent design where clones should be kept alive whenever possible for maximum benefit. Yes, you can have a build where you have 3 axe clones doing everything for you.

> >

> > Keep in mind though that there are other professions and builds that are able to blow up enemies under 2s, so just having clones wail on the same enemy for over 10s is less than ideal.

>

> does this translate to: mirage is bad ?

OP posed their argument in a way that made me assume they thought they could get away with using clones and afk (as it is proven they do 'reasonable' dmg). The answer is, you are able to use clones and afk, but it is suboptimal to do so.

In comparison to other specs, mirage 'blows up' enemies by making the enemy blow themselves up with 12k ticks of confusion. Which you obviously can't do afk with 3 clones.

The [power Tempest](https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/elementalist/tempest/power/). Although it's a raid build, you can pretty much use this anywhere in PvE outside of hardcore solo PvE, thanks to the random sustain by taking the water traitline and bursty water healing skills.

I'm no bench god, and power tempest isn't exactly my cup of tea (I prefer condi weaver instead) so someone else might have a better understanding/way to explain power tempest. The full rotation is listed on the link. The most basic rotation however, is simply rotating between air and fire.

In air, you want to use Lightning Orb and Overload Air (and Lightning Strike) whenever off CD. The other air skills available are generally weak, so you use conjures *after swapping back into air (use Lightning Strike and or Lightning Orb first).*

- Lightning Orb does the most dmg when cast a from a distance from the target. **Positioning is key with tempest**, it can mean the difference between complete trash and good dps.

- Lightning Strike does not interrupt your skills and should be used any time it is off CD (especially during overload).

Conjures:

- Lightning Hammer: Invoke Lighting > autoattack > drop right before Overload Air

- Fiery Greatsword: Fiery Rush > Firestorm + drop (to cancel aftercast)

- Yes, you would want to pick up conjures from the ground when returning to air if possible (it is the curse/blessing of all power ele builds).

- Conjures are generally not worth using against trash mobs.

You'd switch to water *if you leave air while casting Lighting Storm (glyph) or Lightning Orb* for a bonus 10% dmg boost (from Piercing Shards) since they are VERY BIG dmg skills. Or alternatively, when you're dying :hushed:. Cast Shatterstone and leave water immediately.

In fire, there are 3 skills you want to press in quick succession if they are off CD: Wildfire, Phoenix and Dragon's Tooth - afterwards immediately attune back to air (for fresh air bonus!)

- You want to cast Phoenix just behind target to get extra 'pass-through' hits.

- If you cast Wildfire first, you can blast it with the other 2 skills to generate might.

If you’re feeling advanced, you can switch into earth to quickly cast Dust Storm before switching back to air. Only relevant on big, static hitboxes.

You're back in air. Well done.

There is a dagger variant but I haven't seen a good guide for it. I believe it might be more ‘conjure-less’ friendly as Lightning Whip may actually be a decent dps filler.

(Might add more to this but I am sleepy right now)

Fresh Air is used for the fast air attunement recharge, especially on Tempest as Overload Air sets it to 20s. The ferocity buff is literally a bonus that was added on afterwards to make the trait more appealing.

Power Tempest dps in PvE is mostly made up by two skills - Overload Air and Lightning Orb. That being said, every other skill are technically fillers to be used in between these two. What you'd generally want to do is that after Overload Air, you quickly cycle through the attunements (mainly fire) casting all the big impact skills, then switch straight back to air for another overload > rinse & repeat.

If you don't overload, you're better off playing core since the tempest traitline revolves around overloading to gain that edge over core. If you Overload Fire however, you lock yourself out of Fire for the next 20s unless you play campfire build (no Lightning Orb however). Overload Water does no dmg. Overload Earth as power is inferior to both fire and air, and power can't make much use of earth skills regardless. Hence Overload Air + Fresh Air is the best way to maximise power tempest's dps potential as you're still overloading, but not locking yourself out of your main sources of dps.

Consequently, you will find yourself in air most of the time. This is why **power tempest builds usually do not take fire traitline**.

To maximise the effectiveness of the (free) ferocity buff, you'd want to attune to air during/after casting lingering aoes (Wildfire, Dust Storm) or big dmg skills (Burning Speed, Dragon's Tooth, Phoenix). After attuning to air, this is where you want to cast air-specific or conjure high dmg skills (Lightning Orb, Glyph of Storms, Invoke Lightning, Fiery Rush + Firestorm).

> @"Axl.8924" said:

> I am also super tempted to try out a hybrid power condi since i think this could work well and fire does a ton of burning easy.

A condi tempest build [already exists](https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/elementalist/tempest/condition/). Hybrid builds however, are generally inferior to both 'pure' power and condi variants in their intended function (dps).

Information can be old/recycled and the section you read from could be written potentially ages before the existence of mirage.

Clones could always deal dmg. It’s just very negligible being < 100 dmg per hit, when other skills are able to hit over 4-24k.

Mirage axe clones can stack a reasonable amount of condition dmg, and is part of mirage’s apparent design where clones should be kept alive whenever possible for maximum benefit. Yes, you can have a build where you have 3 axe clones doing everything for you.

Keep in mind though that there are other professions and builds that are able to blow up enemies under 2s, so just having clones wail on the same enemy for over 10s is less than ideal.

> @"Xenic.1387" said:

> > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > > @"Xenic.1387" said:

> > > Last night on a whim I decided to try Warrior (banner slave core build from metabattle) just to see what would happen. I had zero clue what I was doing, smashed buttons and just tried to stay alive, and had top DPS in every fight. I was full zerker, axe axe / GS..... I could only imagine how good it could be with someone who wasn't rolling their face on the keyboard

> >

> > And this is what I am alluding too. Zerkeris easy to deal damage with, just spam Decap, but bringing a meta build and not knowing what you are doing can be out done with a non meta build that knows what they are doing.

>

> Keep in mind, I was CORE Warrior. I had full zerker gear and weapons. This account was a free 80 that I used to farm materials and for storage... no specializations.

>

> **Every low level fractal (I'm only up to 43)**

TBH, topping dps against t1/2ists isn't all that much of an achievement, more often than not they don't even know what build they are running. Similarly, I have a f2p core mesmer topping dps here and there in t3, sometimes even against pots + food while I don't have pots and food (cuz fantastic tp restrictions and saving up for infinite pots). I don't even have an ascended weapon on that character yet, whilst I assume others have (being in t3 and 99% of the time, paid accounts with access to especs). Would this mean that core mesmer is good?

(Truth be told, core warrior doesn't seem all that strong in this current meta, but the current iteration of power zerker is *very powerful* compared to most other specs - though being a potential 'best' is up for debate.)

> @"Temeraire XIII.9816" said:

> Are mesmer especially power chrono viable for fractals or will you have problems finding a group?

With low to non-existent slow uptime in fractals, pChrono is as viable as power reaper, whatever that means to you.

When pugging generic T4 fracs (no CMs), no profession really has problems finding groups. In fact, as a self sufficient spec similar to power reaper, pChrono is one of the better dps specs to bring because you can't guarantee who/what else you're going run with. Just make sure you run the focus illu version for both the pulls and boon generation on self, for some reason I keep seeing pChronos in fracs using domi GS - it's like playing a neutered version of power reaper (similar dps, but GS pChrono can't generate its own boons to reach it; unless you really like the laser beams/zerker army, you should play another spec).

On the contrary, if you do plan to run pChrono in groups with higher expectations, it's best to learn when and where to pull and do skips, as dps isn't exactly your forte - decent players using >30k dps specs should outdps you. Your burst isn't the best either, if the fights/phases turn out to be very short. Hence it falls to your ability to find alternative ways to speed up the run, otherwise playing another dps spec would be more worthwhile.

I assume these changes are mainly intended for core mesmer and mirage. To 'fix' chrono, chrono clones probably should be virtually indestructible instead (made a previous suggestion where 'destroyed' clones freeze in place and become untargetable, but still serve as shatter fodder, reanimating themselves upon shatter). Whether inevitable shatters requires slight changes to chrono shatters, I am unsure.

BECAUSE as it currently stands, a 1 clone Mind Wrack already outdamages a 3 clone Split Second w/ no slow (what is a power build even relying on a rare condi for?)

The damage difference between a 1 clone Mind Wrack and 3 clone Mind Wrack is ~ 1 hit of Cry of Frustration.

Should core shatters should already be that impactful even when just 1 clone is shattered? Alternatively, what would be so bad about allowing chrono to freely build up 3 clones when core just only needs/wants to shatter 1?

Maybe the other core shatters should be changed so that they are equally as impactful with only just 1 clone. Then buffing clone survivability would become less necessary and ANET gets to keep their 'clones are squishy to identify the real mesmer' design (remembering npc mesmers/clone users exist too).

Shouldn't the gameplay tradeoff between core/chrono/mirage be just having a clone to shatter/constantly shattering 3 clones/keeping clones up for dmg? Or does it have be imposed restrictions like loss of IP, which destroys the spec in certain gamemodes 'just cuz'?

> @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> I have a better idea, every time 'whatever' is destroyed, have the mesmer lose 25% health.

So if the mesmer is destroyed, they only lose 25% health? :open_mouth:

IMO the context is very broad. The 'best' classes will greatly vary depending on the situation - each for pugging/soloing/speedclearing dailies/recs/fractal CMs and pugging/fast/safe/speedclearing raids/raid CMs (could also be more).

e.g. Fractals at a high level is all about burst. The 3 best (and only relevant due to other classes lacking similar burst) classes are:

- DH

- power weaver

- power Slb

- Alacgade would be the next best because of the handy alacrity and lifesteal, but it doesn't have that burst that makes bosses phase *fast* which is the ultimate goal. Note the 3 above builds are played with slight differences compared to their raid counterparts (precast + prestack knowledge & use of different traits and skills are required).

However, the above *does not work* unless the comp is specifically setup as a burst comp. Hence, when commonly pugging the generic T4 fracs, it suddenly changes into:

- HB (healbrand)

- Alacgade

- a self sustain spec that provides its own boons, in case the above two are not present (prominent examples include reaper and pchrono, although these two have low tier dps and should be outmatched by other classes with a decent HB and alacgade. Other examples such as condi firebrand and banner zerker could fit in this slot)

So then there are even more situations such as having both or no HB and alacgade present, or having one and not the other, etc. There's too much to consider in just only fractals to be set specifically on 3 best endgame classes.

However, without going too deep into raid comps and like everyone else is practically stating, there is one profession that clearly stands out compared to the rest - guardian. With all the gear (and especs) available, you rarely can ever go wrong with a guard.

> @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > @"whoeverxwins.1279" said:

> > Hybrid builds are usually a bad idea, better to go one or the other, otherwise you're weaker from the stat division. If you have the expansions, mirage is a strong Condi profession. I use Viper stats for my Mirage. Then you can go power on your ranger. Core ranger or soulbeast are both strong in open world.

> >

> > Or you can go for a Condi trapper ranger and power build in chronomancer, but chrono was needed pretty hard recently.

>

> Sure but if you look at Viper stats, its not pure condi, its what many would say is hybrid. Granted the power damage is kitten, it STILL will have higher power stat than condi stat and that power damage DOES matter when things or builds are condi resistant or maybe dont take condi damage at all. The more hybrid stats u get w viper's works better than pure condi for many builds and I would say both mesmer and ranger CAN benefit from Viper's vs pure condi.

I think there’s some misunderstanding here, *hybrid builds* was mentioned, not *hybrid stats*. Hybrid builds (in context of dps) commonly refer to builds whose damage distribution are or aims to be close to 50-50% between power and condi.

‘Pure power’ and ‘pure condi’ are are also just terms that are thrown around, pure condi doesn’t literally have mean ‘only uses condi’. It just means *the main form of dmg is from condis*. Especially with this OP, all this means is that dmg from conditions should be focused first; any additional power dmg is simply just a bonus (if you tell OP that ‘hybrid’ is okay, they will attempt to run Domination on a viper condi mirage build for *power shatter dmg*, which is extremely inefficient).

In any case, I would not consider viper’s to be a true hybrid stat combo as the large majority of builds that run viper’s will turn out to be condi builds. On the other hand, the very rare *griever* builds have turned out to make an approximate 50-50 distribution - where you truly can’t call it either power or condi.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> Did you know that core mes in pve has dead utility slots? there is NOTHING in there, if you wanna make DPS core mes, you take chukkle MASS INVISIBILITY and PORTAL.

> Becouse no other utility provides damage XD.

> In fact, when I raid in my power chrono I use kitten blink or portal, becouse i lose 1% dps for the utility slot.

> Our utilities are SO kitten BAD that they provide 1-2% dmg. When you play condi mirage you use kitten 2 signets just for passive stat boost LoL.

Just some minor corrections.

Since even in PvE mesmers don’t ‘swim in clones’, any clone generating skill has potential to be a dps increase by providing shatter fuel. This is why a dps core mes would optimally run MoP (does damage), disenchanter (does damage and *creates a clone*, refreshed by SoE) and defender/mirror images (tho imo defender is outdated, both are ultimately used to *create clones*).

Core elite slot is mostly useless, so no argument here.

Chrono basically runs the same utility set for same reasons (dmg, *but also creating clones*).

1-2% is probably too much of an exaggeration. Though it’s difficult to calculate the loss of dps by decreasing clone generation from defender/images, MoP was once considered the ‘flexible slot’/least effective utility. Providing a flat 1.2k+ dps, the ‘disposable’ utility actually granted a 3-5% (depending on DT/IA chrono/core) dps increase.

Most builds run passive signets whenever they can. Common +180 power signets equate to a passive ~6% increase in dps and are taken pretty much all the time. Would this mean all the other meta builds which use signets have trash utilities as well?

I’m not fully disagreeing with you however, mesmer DOES have trash utilities. Images is like restoring two adrenaline bars on warrior, but with a 30s CD. Non-breakbar enemies randomly become more dangerous when moa’d. All other utilities have niche uses or are intended for PvP. But then again, how many meta specs aren’t plagued by trashy/forced resource utilities?

> @"Axl.8924" said:

> > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > > @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > > > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > > > > @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > > > > Another thing to talk about is if ether feast should get a utility category and whether decoy, mirror images, phantasmal disenchanter and phantasmal defender should get a category.

> > > > They used to have its own ‘category’ in Illu in the form of Illusionist’s Celerity (-15% CD of all illusion skills), and draws benefits from the range of traits that deal with clone/phantasms anyway. Apart from appropriate CD shaves, its not too serious to address.

> > > > > phantasmal fury

> > > > Unless it’s a direct buff, don’t touch this unless you want to die. Just kidding, but this trait is literally 1/5 of phantasms’ crit chance, why in the world would we want to delete that (unless more reworks to phantasms is warranted :trollface:)?

> > >

> > > we already have 3 traits in deparate traitlines for phantasm damage: empowered illusions (domi), phantasmal fury (dueling), phantasmal force (illusions).

> > Unlike basic +dmg% traits, you’d need to resubstiute it’s functionality elsewhere since it turns phantasms from RNG dmg luck to reliable crit machines. It’s currently impossible to reach 100% crit chance on phantasms unless running full assassins Danger Time, in which I believe that trait is flawed since PvE dps chronos do like absolutely nothing to provide that slow. They’re all in appropriate spots since ez crit increasing traits can be randomly found in the ‘condi dmg’ traitline on some classes (Radiance, Firearms, Curses at the top of my head) and dmg increasing traits can be spread randomly across multiple trait lines (see Ele - Fire, Air, Arcane... even Water has one and Earth, but it’s pretty bad in comparison).

> >

> > Unless you mean to say, ‘thematically, Domi should increase dmg from the actual mesmer, and Illu should increase effectiveness of illusions,’ then I’d agree to some extent, otherwise please don’t mess around with my PvE stuff without asking nicely first :smile: it’s why this mes forum exists.

> >

> > Edit: whilst I’m still here, I can point out that the middle trait choices in Insp (sorry going back there again) currently don’t have a group supportive trait; I have sights set upon Protected Phantasms but would like to see whether people think the same first.

>

> sorry to butt in but i got a question for you, if this is true for mes does that mean for Chrono assassin's gear is more desired for PvE for that crit chance and increased crit dmg over the other choices? just curious

Is it more desired for who exactly? Is it more desired for you?

Objectively, to reach the crit cap on phantasms, you would need to reach 80% base crit chance before fury. Zerker gear gets you to ~50%. So there's a ~30% or ~630 precision gap we have to fill.

- Keep in mind straight up % increases do not apply to phantasms. Only stat increases work. (e.g. sigil of accuracy **will not** work)

- Food, banners and spotter give a total 270 precision, leaving us with ~360 (~17%) left.

- Danger Time is helpful in covering this massive gap, leaving ~2% left, but good slow uptime rarely exists outside of coordinated raids. The entire mesmer profession has no other crit chance/precision increasing trait/skill. We are stuck with either ~2% or ~17% crit chance still to cover.

- Why not use thief runes like warrior? As mentioned above, % increases do not work on phantasms. 225 ferocity (+15% crit dmg) is better than a 10% flank bonus won't even apply to 40% of your dmg in the first place (and more importantly, it doesn't apply to your burst).

- Therefore assassins gear is required either way to reach 100% crit chance on phantasms, ranging from switching maybe only ~2 pieces to assassins (slow available) to leaving only ~2 pieces as zerkers (slow unavailable).

Of course no one's forcing you to reach the crit cap. I personally run only 60% (out of the ~67% required) because I mainly do fracs and benefit from the frac pot conversion; however, druids (spotter) and banner warriors have fallen out of the fractal meta, meaning I personally may need to substitute for another 200 precision.

> @"sdt.1697" said:

> Well, I diced that I want to go down the shattered thing for power but I do love the skill set of the staff on this character too. So once aging I went back to the dawing brode on making a new [core Mesmer,](http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PixAwyZlVwOYdMF2IOWP6rUA-zRJYlR3fZkeVFSqq3A-e) though I have my dought that people play core professions anymore.

OK, how about you make a mesmer and lvl it up the good ol' way to lv 80. Or continue playing it until you learn it better. See what build you end up with in the end. Test out different weapons, gear, skills and traits - which feels more effective? Stick with it. Experiment more. Find your own build.

Just a friendly reminder that speccing an elite traitline is not necessary and that *core mesmer* (dom/duel/illu, pure power build) is also a perfectly viable option, especially in the context of ‘general’ PvE.

Due to the chrono shatter changes, chrono isn’t just core v2 anymore. Core damage is actually *shatter-centric*, whereas chrono (w/ chronophantasma) is *phantasm-centric*. With this in mind, you should choose either core (high dmg shatters) or chronophantasma (using illusions to dmg) *and then pick traits to suit the dmg style accordingly*. Choosing one and then picking traits for the other results in an inefficient build that tries to do something it simply just doesn’t (like my attempts on finding an optimal power mirage build).

This applies to where you’ve picked Mental Anguish, which is shatter-based trait which core mesmer actually uses. Honestly, I can see that you’re trying to maximise shatter damage, but since you have GS equipped, Imagined Burden is a much better choice because the additional zerker also resummons itself due to chronophantasma (doubled further using signet and Csplit). Comparatively, core easily outdamages chrono’s 3-clone Split Second with just a 1-clone Mind Wrack, so it’s a clearly stronger trait for core than it is for chrono.

You also might want to take a look at your gear stats, the possibility of using the Dueling traitline, sword/x and Shatter Storm as mentioned above, etc.

Just a word of warning, illusions (e.g. from gs4) do not proc retal on you. They do however, proc it on themselves, which is imo still kinda troll since they don’t have much hp in the first place (phantasms explode when hitting into retal meaning no follow-up phantasm/clone, and clones end up killing themselves).

I meant PvE enemies btw :lol:.

In Bjora Marches, there are certain champions who periodically gain some boons, including a lengthy retal which can hit as stupidly high as 800 per tick.

This isn’t the first time this has happened; in Dragonfall, Shadow Monks can grant retal to a whole group, and then grant a ton of barrier on top of that, making you hurt yourself for literally no gain (~400 per tick).

I’ve been mostly noticing this when I play tempest, when I shoot out a lighting orb or leave an overload air, these enemies can promptly pop retal and then I end up ripping myself to shreds and there is no way to stop it.

If it’s unstrippable and purposely a mechanic (e.g. gorse) then fine, leave it as is but PvE mobs, especially the ones in open world, should either have no or *extremely limited* access to this boon (1-2s with obvious tell, because fyi the visual fx doesn’t appear on them).

Atm, it’s passive play from the ai, it punishes you for simply existing because the only counter play (unless playing very specific classes) is waiting out 10s, while you already get pinged for 3k by other things.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> They did the change for the sake of change, to introduce " TrAdEoFf ", they failed. They will never admit it so we are stuck with the new "improved" chrono.

Basically this.

The long version is that although the loss of Distortion and the shatter split from core were already enough of a TrAdEoFf, there were a few more things they wanted to axe: 1) prestacking, although this only really applies to fracs (for assumed reasons such as promoting firebrigade) but perhaps more significantly, 2) chrono ‘burst’ in pvp - they probably wanted chrono to ‘wear down the opponent in time’, deleting a lot of burst options such as removing the ability to Csplit ooc and doubling up on the GS burst, and practically nerfing the ‘Mind Wrack’ component of this burst by 50%.

What confuses me is that anet didn’t alter the chrono-specific shatters very much from core to implement their trade off; they still have the same/weaker dmg, same CD (*maybe* besides Rewinder) same intended function... what if Split Second had its dmg scaled differently, but then gain a defensive/utility aspect so that it has use other than for dmg? Maybe lower base CDs so chrono can proc traits more frequently? You can do *anything* here, e.g. change confusion into burning, create a brief aoe with effects, make affected targets emote /dance, etc. No, instead they add a 1 clone requirement to ALL shatters, which really doesn’t make sense for chrono or its shatters at all.

So whilst a lot of players would actually give the green light to restoring the previous shatter functionality, it’s ultimately anet who chooses to refuse to revert, maybe because they don’t want to find a better way to deal with the aforementioned ‘issues’. But eventually, different issues such as clone survival will only show up at their door... in what strange ways might they fix these ones?