Noodle Ant.1605

> @"Delofasht.4231" said:

> Major problem with relying on the clones running to the enemy is that of pathing, where shatters can never hit enemies on a wall. There is much more work involved in trying to get clones to actually reach their target than just making them invulnerable or run faster.

 

This might be something worth taking up to the devs.

 

Whilst I would classify porting away or using specific terrain (i.e. falling off elevation while clones are using stairs) to outmanoeuver shatters as counterplay, there might be a random situation where the opponent is pinging the mesmer from range atop terrain that is completely inaccessible without jumping or using portals (wvw walls blocked by gates are somewhat acceptable since it is meant to be defensible).

 

Imagine if a target stands atop a bunch of crates, across a small gap (e.g. harpies on uncategorised fractal) or on a platform above only accessible using a portal (I think a pvp map has this) - the mesmer’s effectiveness is unfairly cut by a significant amount. How should clones and phantasms reach their targets if there is no valid path?

 

Should they blink to the target? Where do they blink? Is there a mechanic that can determine where they blink?

 

Should they just turn into projectiles that fly straight towards the target? How can this be done without completely butchering the profession thematic?

 

Is it to do with where the illusions are spawned? Only certain skills spawn illusions depending on the position of the target.

 

What do the devs think?

The goal/intention is sound, but I’m not really a fan of the proposed method to achieve it. The shatter concept is fundamental to the design of the mesmer - clones *must* blow up, especially in the target’s face to fulfil the ‘I was an illusion all along’ thematic. It doesn’t matter if the enemy is not deceived since they made a decision to hang around them anyway.

 

I’m aware that for the general health of the game, balance should ideally take place before profession theme, but changing shatters to enchantment-like effects sounds like an idea for a unique espec simply because *it’s not mesmer*. Imagine if you changed guardian symbols in the same way - it just doesn’t feel thematically correct.

 

If there was alternative method that still involved the original mesmer shatter concept instead destroying the class thematic, I feel that would be more preferable.

 

Example:

- Clone generation bar as stated (only that it resets ooc only to prevent opening with 3 clone ‘x’).

- Clones that are shattering become untargetable, invuln and gain a visual effect that differentiates them from regular clones.

- When a shatter is used, existing clones shatter as per usual. The game detects whether additional clones need to be summoned according to the clone generation bar, which will be summoned from the mesmer’s location but are initially inactive for a short while.

- The shatter animation from the actual mesmer is bigger/lingers briefly/made much more obvious (than clones).

 

This basically achieves similar results to the proposed changes with different nuances, but at least keeps the original mesmer thematic intact. There is still a benefit and eminent need to cleave clones as they are summoned to avoid being caught out by clones blowing up in your face, but the mesmer does not randomly lose its resource at the same time. And of course, numbers balancing would need to applied later.

 

I’m not sure how far this will go anyway since the devs are fairly selective with changes to the professions, so I’m making an effort not to really expect anything.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > Wish chronophantasma got nerfed by 80% and all phantasms buffed so power mirage/core can at least do as much dps as drunk 1handed guard can.

> >

> > Unless you’re referring to PvP, I already made a thread about the dmg differences between mes power builds [and it turns out they’re surprisingly close](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/82828/pve-power-mes-unlisted-benchmarks

> > ). I feel as though the mirage projected bench should’ve been ~1k lower, but I still believe a benching god might be able to achieve those numbers.

> >

> > Apart from the unnecessary damage increase on Time Catches Up and the brokenness of Danger Time, the real main advantage that chrono has over core and mirage is its chronoburst (using Csplit) - without it, it would probably be benching the same as core, showing that Chronophantasma in PvE is not actually as broken as many people think it is.

> >

> > Seeing that the max performance standards are pretty close, the best solution imo for a really long time now is to outright delete Danger Time instead and buff core and a bit of mirage up as compensation, raising everything power mes related with it, and boom! - we now have 3 viable and different power builds in one profession???

> >

> > At the very least, start by making the sword ambush distinctly better than and worth using over the regular AA.

>

> after seing deadeye make over 40k dps with preety mcuh spaming couple of buttons off cd, meanwhile you have to do 20-30button combos that in reality dont work becouse chrono combo takes around 30s, so you WILL have to stop. and another thing is that you lose on the reason power is strong, its INSTA damage, meanwhile you have to wait on casttimes then phantasm casttimes, then chronophantasma stun then phantasm casttime again. end up waiting 5-15s for dmg to apply. might as well go condi

 

We can't all have nice things.

 

The only time where this really matters is when you're trying to speedclear through bosses. Even then, experienced groups sometimes wouldn't even take deadeye at all. If INSTA dmg is a concern (target dies before burst is complete), you might need to shake up your rotation to include the hard hitting things first, or switch to core because its actually better in this specific situation.

 

Atm, power mes builds only need Danger Time (especially its slow requirement) deleted and redistributed through core traitlines so that they can appear on SC's sacred dps spectrum and not under unreliable conditions. If you want a power mes build to mimic burst like the meta specs DH, weaver and power soulbeast, you'd best put your money in the next espec, or buff power mes *not chrono* since it has the better short burst potential (while pchrono distinctly shoots ahead on 10/15s+ fights).

 

For example (mostly PvE):

- Core shatters - Cry of Pain has a similar dmg distribution as Mind Wrack (higher 1/2 clone dmg scaling). 1 and 2 clone Mind Wrack buffed (taking advantage of unique core shatters, change non-core shatters to scale directly proportional to the number of clones).

- Signet of Ether - cast time reduced to 3/4s (or lower). Phantasms already have higher CD and the CD reduction is only 50% anyways in PvP already.

- Phantasmal Swordsman - cast time reduced to 3/4s or lower.

- Phantasmal Disenchanter - cast time normalised with underwater version (1/2s).

- Phantasmal Defender - cast time normalised with underwater version (1/2s).

- Mental Anguish - becomes more reliable, maybe just the straight 50% dmg increase (PvP version stays the same).

- Fencer's Finesse - outdated, needs updating.

- Cry of Pain - Cry of Frustration additionally deals 25% more damage (10% or some minor amount in PvP)

- Compounding Power - reverted to 3% dmg per stack.

- Well of Calamity - make it actually worth using over MoP and phantasms.

- Danger Time - crit chance increase somehow moved into core (preferably dueling). Afterwards, ideally merged with Lost Time or deleted to make space for a new trait that doesn't necessarily increase chrono dps, or only complements a Lost Time build.

- Clones - chrono clones now resummon themselves upon dying?

- Etc.

 

But really, this is a QoL thread, not a buffing thread.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> Wish chronophantasma got nerfed by 80% and all phantasms buffed so power mirage/core can at least do as much dps as drunk 1handed guard can.

 

Unless you’re referring to PvP, I already made a thread about the dmg differences between mes power builds [and it turns out they’re surprisingly close](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/82828/pve-power-mes-unlisted-benchmarks

). I feel as though the mirage projected bench should’ve been ~1k lower, but I still believe a benching god might be able to achieve those numbers.

 

Apart from the unnecessary damage increase on Time Catches Up and the brokenness of Danger Time, the real main advantage that chrono has over core and mirage is its chronoburst (using Csplit) - without it, it would probably be benching the same as core, showing that Chronophantasma in PvE is not actually as broken as many people think it is.

 

Seeing that the max performance standards are pretty close, the best solution imo for a really long time now is to outright delete Danger Time instead and buff core and a bit of mirage up as compensation, raising everything power mes related with it, and boom! - we now have 3 viable and different power builds in one profession???

 

At the very least, start by making the sword ambush distinctly better than and worth using over the regular AA.

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

> Maybe make Power mirage somehow viable in PvE? Maybe that quality of life is just to good to exist.

 

The problem with PvE power mirage (max dps build) atm is that it’s riddled with too much micro-management. Played like a god, it only manages to perform almost but not as well as core. PvE dmg boosts to Jaunt, Dune Cloak and Mirage Mirrors, as well as introducing new interactions such as clones also gaining full-power Dune Cloak using Illusionary Ambush when traited, and maybe somehow False Oasis > SoE, could probably push power mirage into the lowest end of the dps spectrum (scourge & no-slow illu pchrono), but it doesn’t really address how difficult it is to play in the first place (actively avoiding the trash dmg on sword ambush being the main offender).

 

My own current (small) wish list:

- PvE phantasms gain interruption immunity. Or maybe even invuln. Having to account for two cast times (own + phantasm) is unfair. If PvE mobs are too stupid to cleanse condis, why are some of them smart enough to ‘accidently’ counter phantasms?

- Stop giving iDrunkWarden alcohol. It keeps throwing axes at dead/untargetable/invulnerable/non-existent enemies or entities.

PvE-wise, the massive gap between ~20k and 31k (or at least 29k) IMO unfortunately can’t be fixed with ‘small’ fixes. Fortunately, 31k and 29k are quite low on the dps spectrum, so accidentally buffing reaper and scourge by fixing core would be seen as a bonus rather than a problem.

 

Thanks to gamemode skill splits, PvP is unaffected by boosting the coefficients on shroud skills such as core shroud #4 by a whopping 50%, which coincidentally already exists on reaper shroud #4, which btw already pumps out even more dmg without the 50% dmg increase. Additional condi stacks can be added to appropriate skills.

 

Apart from having a weak core shroud, both power and condi core necro suffer from the fact that they have complete garbage OH weapons (that even scourge switches between torch and... torch, and you can theoretically get away with running OH dagger on reaper). This should ideally be a main priority, along with ‘updating’ core shroud.

 

The Curses traitline is unnecessarily unusable by core power builds (as its replacement for the reaper traitline) and offers surprisingly little to condi builds besides 2/3 traits in the entire line. Potentially a good area to look at - e.g. could fit a necro version of Modified Ammunition in the grandmaster slot and slightly rework corruptions (so core condi actually has decent utility skills) and its respective trait.

Chase the Skittish Rabbit in the West mountainside of Thunderhead Peaks. Not sure if it correctly counts as a ‘boss’ you can fight. Seek it out at your own peril.

> @"Lexi.1398" said:

> It is a bit finicky, but i have been able to summon phantasms on the octo- and other objects- somewhat recently-ish. More than a month for sure, can't remember when i first noticed it.

 

You can definitely summon phantasms, it’s just that they won’t attack because of what seems like pathing and direct LoS issues, and because they can’t attack, they won’t despawn into clones that you can shatter that would happen even if they couldn’t reach their target.

 

They’ll literally just stand there at stare at octovine. Haven’t paid close attention to whether clones are also affected, but at the very least you can shatter them.

 

I remember the last instance of All or Nothing having similar issues.

> @"Axl.8924" said:

> > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > You asked something about this build (pchrono) roughly a year ago. Apart from a history of just random nerfs (removal of SoE CS interaction and ability to ‘dryshatter’/0 clone shatter, etc.), it’s practically the same thing from then, but noticeably weaker.

> >

> > Without an external source of slow to abuse Danger Time and now Split Second, chronos are not ideal for fractals, but still have a place in pug groups or can be taken for mostly insignificant skips.

>

> Thing is a year ago build worked differently now with the nerfs its a bit different.

>

> Im going to play around some more with the build.

 

Unless you’re being sarcastic, I can assure you that no significantly game-breaking changes have been made since then, apart from small combat nuances and the dmg output that the build now spits out.

 

You already know the build from last year.

 

Then why would you try and replace an entire traitline? The traits are still identical. The only traits that can change are Danger Time vs Improved Alacrity (and now Illusory Reversion as another contending option), but the DT/non DT distinction had already existed before the time you asked.

 

The build takes on slightly more assassin gear, though this only really matters if you’re optimising.

 

The SoE CS interaction change means you need to re-learn another variant of the CS combo, but you only use this on bosses and not much in general open world anyway.

 

Shattering at >3 clones is now much less efficient, meaning that you’d ideally only want to shatter @ 3 clones, which was mostly the case beforehand.

 

0 clone Diversion and Distortion were honestly just panic buttons. Losing them just means you can’t go Leeroy like before and expect to survive.

 

The trash mob deletion combo in open world is still 1 phantasm + blurred frenzy/mirror blade + a few AA’s now, since chrono 1 clone F1 has been shafted. The ‘spamtasm’ approach is still used for vets and higher. The only situation where you’d tack on more defense by making a drastic move such as taking Chaos is for soloing champs or HoT HPs, which then makes your build personalised to your preferences rather than *the* ‘build for openworld and maybe fracs’.

You asked something about this build (pchrono) roughly a year ago. Apart from a history of just random nerfs (removal of SoE CS interaction and ability to ‘dryshatter’/0 clone shatter, etc.), it’s practically the same thing from then, but noticeably weaker.

 

Without an external source of slow to abuse Danger Time and now Split Second, chronos are not ideal for fractals, but still have a place in pug groups or can be taken for mostly insignificant skips.

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > I thought the removal of IP was a slap-dash nerf to delete the GS burst on chrono (by literally halving the dmg on 1 clone F1), the ability to 0 clone CS and dry shattering in CS for instant extra dmg.

> >

> > Other than that, I don’t think there was any other intent behind removing IP, and for some PvE players, it was very uncalled for (and as appealing as Rewinder seems, it would have been far better to fix condi on core, which was what I thought all these ‘trade offs’ were about (and which it obviously isn’t)).

>

> I mean it is a possibility. But it seems a little too cruel to so drastically affect an entire spec for one build.

 

It’s not cruelty, it’s just standard anet logic. I mean, look at the initial legendary sigil/rune implementation and the ‘customise’ feature - they thought it was a such a great idea but in reality, it came out as a broken feature before being quick-fixed thanks to anet’s more-than-obvious priorities.

 

The same can be said the loss of IP - apart from shaking up the shatters (and leaving chrono like all the other ‘replaced-a-weaker-core-mechanic’ especs, except not stronger this time), they thought it was a great idea to implement an experimental and clearly untested bandaid to GS burst/double cast/CS dry shatter chrono as part of the ‘trade off(s)’ at the same time (can we really stop calling them trade offs, they really aren’t). Guess what, it came out broken like pretty much 50% of all the other content that anet releases, but the problem isn’t about that - it’s about anet’s evidently great priorities and ‘plans for future balance’ /s, infuriatingly long response times (QQ for 3+ months is not a joke) and refusal to ever revert bad changes or at least provide test servers/pre-week ‘test patches’ so that players themselves can gauge potential changes for them *before* they release the finalised patch (where anet can actually put their ‘metrics’ to good use by fixing, delaying or outright removing broken content).

I thought the removal of IP was a slap-dash nerf to delete the GS burst on chrono (by literally halving the dmg on 1 clone F1), the ability to 0 clone CS and dry shattering in CS for instant extra dmg.

 

Other than that, I don’t think there was any other intent behind removing IP, and for some PvE players, it was very uncalled for (and as appealing as Rewinder seems, it would have been far better to fix condi on core, which was what I thought all these ‘trade offs’ were about (and which it obviously isn’t)).

‘None’/‘no more’ or ‘no more nerfs’, if it exists, since playing power on mirage is distinctly trashier than on core in PvE. Unless you want even more PvP/condi related nerfs, that’s concerning but okay... I’m fine with that, I guess.

 

Or else it has to come with a huge compensation package, which I’m not gonna cross my fingers on.

I don’t see it as support synergies, but more about ‘does this pair of support build cover everything we want?’. From there, players can pick what support comp they choose to take, as long as one covers important aspects that the other one lacks.

 

From my observations, support ‘synergies’ are not set in stone, but revolve around covering what is required from this following list. Support builds are/should be able to do a variety of the following, with gradings ‘low-mid-high’ and only *maybe* affected by difficulty/reliability v. output:

 

- Dps

- ‘General’ boons (e.g. **fury**, vigor, swiftness)

- **Might**

- Defensive boons (e.g. prot, stab, resistance)

- **Quickness**

- **Alacrity**

- Healing

- Barrier

- Vulnerability

- **Unique buffs**

 

Since players currently place a focus on the bolded terms, ideally a support build should not be able to do them all, nor should they be able to do none (e.g. healing-only builds are largely undesired). This is important to think about in ‘synergies’ (and even support viability in general), as supports should be chosen based on what is missing and what is available, rather than having set comps (unless beating record times).

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> Power chrono in raids is very weird. It's either not taken at all or its makes up half the squad.

 

Yes, because a pchrono comp removes the need for boon chrono since it can supply perma quickness and slow by coordinating Timewarp whilst dealing higher-than-average dps. Remove one pchrono for another dps however, another pchrono has to swap for boon chrono to maintain uptimes, removing the advantage of running the other comp (because now you have 1 less dps).

 

Slow uptime needs to be maintained for Danger Time, the one trait that makes pchrono a viable dps, and now also for Split Second. Danger Time is so busted that pchrono only needs somwhere under 20% slow uptime for Danger Time to perform at or better than the other two options.

 

A [previous plea to address Danger Time](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/75199/danger-time), which would now be highly reasonable considering [the current performance of power mesmer builds](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/82828/pve-power-mes-unlisted-benchmarks) who can't make use of the trait.

And the long answer :grin:!

 

Power mirage is ‘playable’ (I guess), but currently it’s nowhere near the meta of the meta (projected ~25k vs 40k). This means it’s its a definite must-NOT-bring to any non-casual high-end PvE - other than that, it’s okay to bring to open world or with friends who don’t mind.

 

In my most updated power mirage build, it runs GS & Sw/Sw and Domi 2-2-2, Duel 1-3-1 & Mirage 1-1-3 with an excessive amount of assassin gear (all assassin’s gear besides amulet and backpack, or any combination to reach ~67% crit chance). Uses Force & Air sigils, Scholar runes, and uses Signet of Ether, Mantra of Pain, Phantasmal Disenchanter, Crystal Shards and Jaunt. A noticeably weaker but more simplistic/ranged and openworld friendly build that camps GS would use Domi 2-2-1 and Mirage 1-2-1 instead (not to be used for any kind of serious dmg).

 

NOTE: This build is fairly difficult to play effectively, and is IMO more complicated than generic ele and engi builds. I actually and personally DO NOT recommend playing power mirage.

 

To start off, there are a ridiculous amount of things to pay attention to. They include:

1. Dodge bar

2. Clone counter

3. Crystal Shards

4. Mirrors (and F4 with Desert Distortion)

5. Jaunt

6. Signet of Ether

7. Mantra of Pain

 

It’s actually a bit complicated than it seems (unless performance doesn’t matter):

1. Dodge bar - dodging does dmg. To not dodge is to lose dmg, but then it also needs to be used defensively. ON TOP of that, if gaining cloak on sword, autoattack is not recommended until it ends, because that’s also another random dmg loss.

2. Clone counter - always shatter (F1 or F2) on 3 clones, but this can fill up unpredictably. ‘Wasting’ clones by overwriting them is bad, unless shatters are on CD. Other mechanics rely on managing this resource.

3. Crystal Shards - apart from doing dmg, this creates a clone IF other clones are out AND a mirror. Ideally used with clones out.

4. Mirrors (and F4) - does dmg and gives you compulsory mirage cloak (which deals more dmg, but reminder: don’t press #1 on sword!) if you touch them, but they can expire. Distortion (w/ trait) turns your 3 clones into mirrors which you want to easily pick up to deal dmg, best done on sword w/ melee clones.

5. Jaunt - same as Crystal Shards w/o the mirror.

6. SoE - the phantasm spam combo common to all mes builds. Use sword #5 and Disenchanter, SoE and then cast them again (now while remembering to manage all the above)

7. Mantra of Pain - simply use when it has two charges. The easiest component to manage.

8. Other random basic things I’ve forgotten such as GS #2 in melee range.

 

It doesn’t get crazy until you try and play it in-game.

 

So unless playing casually, it’s best if you actively stay away from power mirage. Core mes and chrono are far better options, where I would actually recommend playing core in this case, or playing another spec such as rifle Deadeye if range dps is desired.

It’s still good in openworld due to self buffing against vets and higher, otherwise core mes for trash mobs + panic buttons (or if you don’t use Csplit burst).

 

Fractals/dungeons, it’s theoretically not very good at all, but it’s the best power mes build and manages to hold on if boss doesn’t phase and dies not too fast but not too slow (as the Csplit burst ends) to hide your pitiful sustained damage. Self buffing means that it still ‘looks good’ in pug groups even though it’s actually not meta-wise.

 

Raids, nothing really changed as long as you demand other players to apply slow for you. Otherwise, it’s now a pretty bad spec to bring for dps since you have other specs simply dishing out 30% more than you are.

This probably won’t help you survive in PvE, but if anyone’s interested I’ll just leave this here:

 

Because I don’t find performing well on already BiS/well-known builds fun, I actually went out and tried testing some hybrid (power/condi) ele builds at high-end PvE level - especially concerning the use of grieving stats and burning duration increasing gimmicks. Unfortunately, I didn’t have the money to invest in possibly non-functional builds, so I only *roughly* tested two possible options - campfire hybrid temp and FA ‘griever’ (a.k.a grieving weaver).

 

I tried to test both builds using full grieving gear, sigils of smoldering and accuracy, flame legion runes, toxic focusing crystals and bowls of fire meat chili. I could have used force/malice instead of accuracy, and tried different variations of food but didn’t want to spend gold doing so.

 

Campfire hybrid temp (fire 1-1-1, arcane 1-?-2, temp ?-3-?) is an interesting build that not only uses hybrid stats, but it also practically deletes the obligatory complexity that commonly is attached to every other ele dps build. Every skill is on the same one bar - as the name suggests, you only camp fire attunement and never switch out of it. It also has a surprising knack of generating large amounts of might (and fury) by itself. The build uses sc/f and has a priority list rather than a solid rotation, and a proper bench for the build could probably land at ~30-32k (dps reaper numbers) or potentially higher (with allies, for arcane power?). However, ~70% of the dmg is from burning, so this build may have been more optimised taking more condi options.

 

FA ‘griever’ is a [pre-existing build](

) (now fire 1-1-1, air 3-2-2, weaver 1-1-1) that integrates aspects from both pure power and condi sword weaver, but was/is ultimately inferior to both in their respective areas (burst and/or overall dmg). I still believe that griever is still completely outperformed by viper weaver (burst, overall dps, even sustain and tankiness :tongue:), trailing behind by maybe 1-2k (~36-38k, might be higher but I can’t bench properly). The dmg split is ~50% burning, so optimisation can go both ways, but may favor power more.

 

In conclusion, hybrid ele builds definitely exist and are actually in the viable realm, but are still unfortunately outperformed by pure builds and lack specific aspects of pure builds (burst/pure condi dmg) to be considered worthwhile by many.

I don’t think this new series of ‘trade offs’ had anything balance orientated in mind.

 

In reality, all anet has done is identified all the ‘addition’ type especs (especs that straightup add a mechanic/s) and attached additional nerfs to it. The ‘addition’ especs were Druid, Daredevil, Scrapper, Chrono and formerly Beserker (revenant especs not counted since core was initially badly designed with Herald in mind).

 

From a balance point of view, addition especs sound bad for the game, but it doesn’t detract from the fact how anet managed to keep them in line with the rest of the game up until this year. Especs don’t only come with mechanics; they force a players to use a predetermined traitline - a possible trade off in itself. Where ‘replacement’ especs received uber-strong traitlines on top of replaced mechanics that rivalled addition ones anyway, addition especs (with the exception of daredevil) received generally weaker traitlines that housed one or two ‘gems’ which made the traitline seem less bad overall.

 

Then something happened since the end of last year that made balance go all awry. Some of the addition especs got buffs they probably should have never gotten that triggered this ‘trade off’ craze, and anet decided to proceed in this direction under the banner of ‘giving core more of a competitive chance’ (where I’m still wondering whether people would *optionally* choose core specs even after patch, not because the espec was completely nuked out of orbit). If they were truly levelling the playing field, they are intentionally choosing an extremely convoluted way to do so, whilst making many players lose faith in their ability to manage the game at the same time.

 

Since anet is evidently incapable of backtracking and considering changes that would directly achieve intended results, the only thing we can really do now is wait and see in what other complicated ways they’ll fix up their own mess.

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > > > Well, apart from PvP and still staying within the realm of high end PvE, what people do thoroughly enjoy is ignoring the fact how those high chrono numbers you speak of are only achievable under perma slow, only really being maintained in organised raid comps.

> > > >

> > > > Once you take out the slow, and because the chrono build that deals that sort of dmg doesn’t apply much or any slow at all, that supposedly high number shoots straight down to the 29k range. *Which btw is worse than ~31k*. If there’s slow (like in raids), sure fine whatever - otherwise, no-slow chrono has been nerfed repetitively for some time for no reason, to the point where core (and to an extent power mirage) is actually hands down better at casual open world/high-end PvE.

> > > >

> > > > Don’t just glance over the numbers posted on the SC website, I’ve found that it leaves out a lot of significant build-defining details (cleave, sustained dps, trash burst, etc.) and that it’s purely raid oriented. Just because chrono looks like it’s up there, doesn’t mean it’s like that throughout all of PvE or the entire game.

> > > >

> > > > Besides, I’ve been sitting on sub 31k for a while now, so I can say that I can feel for power dps holos right now.

> > >

> > > Ooh, it almost sounds like a certain class that has its highest DPS possible with permanent Chill only! ... And then still benchmarking the lowest of all (sorry for misusing this subforum, engies, I feel for you too, but ANet at least tries to fix things for you with the latest update (yesterday)).

> > > If there's one class in PvE (endgame) that does not deserve to complain one bit, because of ALL the optimal (and mostly even compulsory) builds it has (and for a while now!), it's the mesmer!!!

> >

> > I dunno where you came from but I was responding specifically to someone who decided to introduce chrono using horribly situational numbers posted on a website that only deals with raids.

> >

> > And there’s not much similarity in your comparison as you think there is.

> >

> > And at least holos got something back. I’m still QQing on my side since prepatch and anet doesn’t seem to care.

>

> I'm talking about that same site giving us a very accurate depiction of the state of the PvE endgame in its optimal setting and actually giving ANet really sweet handles to balance to. But no, they hardly ever make use of that! Imo, ANet shouldn't balance to casual play or mediocre builds, or anything in the open world really! Always balance to your endgame and the maximum possibilities and capabilities of your classes/builds/etc. herein. Making it really frustrating if it's completely out of balance and stays like that for a long time! It's actually 101 basic gaming knowledge! ANet thinks differently about this or at least it looks like that, cause some of these godmode classes (in the PvE endgame) have been super-optimal for so incredibly long now. And therefore I was mentioning the mesmer as your prime example here. Although (frustratingly for them) now being _very slightly_ nerfed every single balance update, they're _still_ the pinnacle of optimal class picking with _several_ different builds at their disposal (Support, Power, Condi (Mirage AND [Chrono](

) now, btw!)). While there are other classes out there that are suboptimal at best or even completely non-optimal in pretty much ANY PvE endgame encounter! I was giving the Necro as prime example here (again, sorry for misusing the Engi forums, but I could as well mention the Engi for this purpose, they're somewhat similar to the Necro in that regard).

>

> So in conclusion, the Mesmer mains should not QQ about getting nerfs at all, maybe they should actually wish for a complete gutting the next update, so they are up for (small) buffs in _all_ subsequent updates thereafter.

 

Huh? Some of these points don’t make much sense (well, in what I’m trying to address at least).

 

If I need to make it any clearer, I’m actually QQing that there’s a massive 8-9k difference between what’s advertised in this ‘accurate depiction of endgame’ and what happens when you can’t fulfil this one ridiculous condition which you yourself have practically no control over (unlike reaper who can solo supply waaay more than 40% uptime without losing significant amounts of dmg or becoming cc’less. Even then, they don’t lose any near as drastic). I’ve already advocated to nuke DT chrono dps since AGES AGO, cuz ppl like you storm in using the absolute top numbers as ‘proof’ and assume we get those numbers *everywhere, everytime* and don’t deserve fixing. And then, maybe thanks to those ppl, anet continues to nerf the wrong thing TIME AFTER TIME.

 

By your methodology, it wouldn’t matter if only your class did 10k everywhere else as long as it’s >=35k ONLY IN RAIDS (**not even in CM’s**, you srsly thought I meant openworld?). **Cuz raids is totally 100% of the entire game** /s. Condi chrono was a bad example to bring up since like above, it excels in super-specific scenarios and is deadweight everywhere else.

 

IMO, anet doesn’t seem like they’re trying to balance the game, all iterations of pchrono were at 33-34k last year, then anet decided to disturb the balance by introducing the 42k DT chrono and then continually nerf the balanced one past reaper territory, whilst leaving the DT way up there. Yeah, I kinda have to QQ since anet keeps wanting to go in the completely wrong direction.

 

But hey, they managed to at least do *something right* for holo, so it’s all well and dandy now and so we should *really* stop using this thread to argue about unrelated matters.

 

Like, let’s just leave it here or go to another subforum.

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > Well, apart from PvP and still staying within the realm of high end PvE, what people do thoroughly enjoy is ignoring the fact how those high chrono numbers you speak of are only achievable under perma slow, only really being maintained in organised raid comps.

> >

> > Once you take out the slow, and because the chrono build that deals that sort of dmg doesn’t apply much or any slow at all, that supposedly high number shoots straight down to the 29k range. *Which btw is worse than ~31k*. If there’s slow (like in raids), sure fine whatever - otherwise, no-slow chrono has been nerfed repetitively for some time for no reason, to the point where core (and to an extent power mirage) is actually hands down better at casual open world/high-end PvE.

> >

> > Don’t just glance over the numbers posted on the SC website, I’ve found that it leaves out a lot of significant build-defining details (cleave, sustained dps, trash burst, etc.) and that it’s purely raid oriented. Just because chrono looks like it’s up there, doesn’t mean it’s like that throughout all of PvE or the entire game.

> >

> > Besides, I’ve been sitting on sub 31k for a while now, so I can say that I can feel for power dps holos right now.

>

> Ooh, it almost sounds like a certain class that has its highest DPS possible with permanent Chill only! ... And then still benchmarking the lowest of all (sorry for misusing this subforum, engies, I feel for you too, but ANet at least tries to fix things for you with the latest update (yesterday)).

> If there's one class in PvE (endgame) that does not deserve to complain one bit, because of ALL the optimal (and mostly even compulsory) builds it has (and for a while now!), it's the mesmer!!!

 

I dunno where you came from but I was responding specifically to someone who decided to introduce chrono using horribly situational numbers posted on a website that only deals with raids.

 

And there’s not much similarity in your comparison as you think there is.

 

And at least holos got something back. I’m still QQing on my side since prepatch and anet doesn’t seem to care.

> @"Komuszon.5890" said:

> Well, I prefer Power for sure, Condi is not my style. In build im looking for ability to solo some champions, however i would like to have good survivality without spamming tons on dodges and swaping weapons every 10seconds :P

> Also im looking for some solid Aoe for farming trash mobs and tagging in zerg farm trains.

> Can you advice some build ?:) Or you need more info ?

 

Survivability/champ solo and dmg unfortunately doesn’t go hand in hand, and since you prefer power, this becomes just slightly more complicated (condi is really easy since it’s just the same old mirage build).

 

Good survivability and champ soloing can be done on chrono w/ shield, and is conveniently covered [-> here <-](http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Chronomancer_-_Sword/x_Phantasms). Fortunately and despite being outdated, it covers a lot on open-world chrono and all the different variations of it for different situations, and saves me the trouble of explaining things myself. By all means, change up the traits, skills, weapons and gear stats to suit your preferences as the build itself isn’t entirely set in stone.

 

If you’re lazy/don’t care about being efficient, you can still farm trash on a less offensive chrono build. If playing solo, killing trash mobs can feel clunky and unintuitive, but it saves you the trouble of switching all traitlines and utility skills + gear just to deal with one aspect of PvE.

 

For tagging however (in metas for example), it is useful to keep power mirage on hand just for the GS ambush (unless you are already satisfied using GS and mashing the target change key) - traits, gear, utility and whatnot isn’t important as long as you tag which just requires the mirage traitline to be active and then dodging and autoattacking with GS.

The answer to this question requires more specifics. Do you prefer to ‘peel’ at enemies, playing tanky and chipping away their hp? Or do you prefer to be as efficient as possible and steamroll through content with something unstable as a unicycle? Does ‘solo’ include soloing champs? Do you like to intelligently run into an ambush of enemies?

 

There’s specific builds that deal with these specific situations, and it’s not entirely one-spec-rules-all.

 

For a slow paced/champ soloing playstyle, both mirage and chrono are suited in this area, whilst core is questionable.

 

Core currently holds the title of blowing up regular mobs the fastest. condi mirage despite being condi is more than okay, and is just as fast as chrono anyway.

 

AoE/tagging-wise, power mirage is the best, although it is not as good dmg-wise. Core and mirage have good cleave but severely lack the range of gs ambush. Chrono is questionable in this regard as it would require a specific build that would be likely by dwarfed by core.

 

I can suggest builds, but can only after I know what playstyle is sought.

 

[This thread](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/30394/open-world-domination-mirage) might be useful.

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> Well, what does scrapper do in comparison to that 29K then?

 

It reached 26k somehow pre-patch. If it now does less, then my condolences further extends to scrapper then. Except some ppl I discussed with didn’t believe in scrapper dps pre patch, so it I guess it didn’t hurt as much?

 

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> Though there's something Noodle Ant is neglecting to mention: You only take the damage on slow trait if you're ina comp that's going to give out slow. If you're not in such a comp, you take Improved Alacrity instead. This significantly reduces the cooldown of all skills, increasing DPS.

 

Should honestly take this to the mes forum. I’m trying to be reasonable here - without Danger Time, no slow chronos perform at ~83.33% of their DT variants (use the lowest number shown in the 20% intervals because this is actually closer to the true *average*). Drop another 1-1.5k since F1 does 33% less dmg. Improved Alacrity is a universal ~12% skill recharge (under perma alacrity) but on chrono it’s really less than a 1k increase.

 

Either way, it’s technically impossible for no slow to bench at or over 31k since it benched at 33k many patches ago (last year), add in the random nerfs here and there then you’ll see how I’m getting my projected numbers. Unless you can bench otherwise.

 

Edit: reply in this thread {https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/82828/pve-power-mes-unlisted-benchmarks#latest}

> @"Incendiaryflame.2103" said:

> Was hoping for something for dungeons / fractals. The metabattle one isn't bad, I was just curious if there was any other besides the one power build listed.

 

If you’re looking specifically for dmg, the one listed on metabattle (under dungeons/frac) is probably the best (and only) one.

 

It’s fairly outdated, but there a few variations of this build with small dps loss for extra utility. Optimally you’d take more assassin’s gear (but only if you want optimise like raids). You can take GS instead of focus for range and single target trash burst, and switch out Defender for Mirror Images if you feel like the Defender isn’t going to block much. The Defender/Mirror Images slot is free to replace with any other necessary utility skill. Traits will stay exactly the same, even with GS.