Noodle Ant.1605

The idea behind giving core mes something is that even if you implement some tradeoff/change to the especs, core is still *bad* and largely undesirable in comparison.

Also, some of the suggestions are a bit more convoluted than they seem, e.g.

> Csplit (F5) replaces Distortion (F4); reduce CD of Csplit

Now although considerations such as lowering the CD are being made, the CD reduction makes even more of a mess since it would mean chrono gets to double cast or *exploit* core mes more often, more accessible elites, and although it may look ‘good’ for PvP (especially for those who just have it against the mes spec as a whole), it further separates the two PvE wise besides *wowee core mes can invuln for 4s!*.

If anything, the chrono should at least be forced to use Csplit and its unique traits (alacrity, chronophantasma, etc) appropriately to gain an edge over core mes; otherwise the player should just be better off playing core mes itself, thus the proposal of simply nerfing the chrono traitline to be ‘weak’ relative to core for a tradeoff, or any other suggestions following the same line of thought.

> @"Takashiro.8701" said:

> > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > Suggestion: current core mesmer elites are said to be currently balanced around CS, being able to used twice by chrono. Buff core mes elites/nerf them when chrono is taken; either way have elites weaker when taking chrono somehow.

>

> Maybe increase the cooldown of elite skills for Chrono by ~100%-150%? You can still cast them every 105 seconds with CS, but you're heavily punished if you use them outside of CS, so you're mostly forced to wait out the 105sec CD for elite skills, even for elite skills that would normally have a lower CD. Like say the new Mass Invi (60s).

> Or just straight up make it so you can only cast elite skills in CS as Chrono. It would be a unique detriment to playing Chrono and that way you could also equalize the elite skills for Core Mes, Mirage and future Especs (if it ever happens) again, without all of them being pulled down cause of Chronos doublecast.

>

> However, like Xstein said, if their goal is to make all 3 specs equally viable, adding a detriment to Chrono is probably not the solution there. Instead give Core Mesmer something that makes it more viable.

>

>

When I was writing my last post, I was thinking of the double moa shenanigans that was taking place before mirage release. I was thinking it would have been appropriate if core mesmer was more attached to this idea (moa’ing) since other mesmers in game commonly are portrayed using transformations, but I also want core mes to have a somewhat actually *consistently* useful elites in PvE :cry:

For viability, I can’t contribute any pvp specific ideas or information since I don’t play that mode. However, for PvE, I do believe that the two specs (core and chrono, mirage not sure) can be brought closer together by Xstein’s idea of core traitline tradeoff; the metaphorical jewel of the chrono traitline for dps/damage is Chronophantasma, a trait that improves damage over a period of time, while everything else * should * be fairly insignificant/random QoL features (e.g. 25% movespeed bonus, superspeed clones, alacrity, etc) or traits more dedicated to support. Therefore it would make sense for core mes with all three damage-dedicated traitlines to hit harder than chrono on a per hit basis, being similar to pDPS warrior specs in terms of damage distribution (no real burst but does meaty hits) compared to chrono who has a ‘burst’ but has to rely on stacking smaller hits using Csplit and Chronophantasma. pChrono is inherently bad at dealing with trash mobs efficiently and short boss phasing, of which core mes can be designed to cover more effectively.

Same thing could apply for Lost Time and defensive oriented builds, chrono has a singular appealing feature (trait/access to shield) of which you’d have to drop a core traitline and slog through a number of niche traits that may or may not complement the build.

Edit: As a PvEr, I think chronophantasma is not or is as much of a problem as Danger Time, a trait that’s practically a 20%+ dmg increase due to the crit chance% bonus that should exist somewhere on core. Even worse, dps chronos who take this trait contribute nothing or very little to the slow uptime, i.e. it’s a trait that the chrono doesn’t even manage themselves. No one seems to have benched a non DT chrono, but I suspect it sits around the 30-31k mark (compared to the DT variants that sit around 35-37k) Core mes apparently sat at around 25k at some point, but I would imagine it would’ve dropped to about 24k.

Suggestion: current core mesmer elites are said to be currently balanced around CS, being able to used twice by chrono. Buff core mes elites/nerf them when chrono is taken; either way have elites weaker when taking chrono somehow.

Csplit (imo, the *only* mechanical ‘addition’ to the mes by taking chrono) has a 105s CD, uses resources (clones) to activate/empower and has a *some* (maybe not enough?) counterplay, so while I do expect some tradeoff, I would expect it be either of Situation 1, or not to have any super-significant drawbacks.

Comparatively, Chronophantasma mechanically changes the mesmer quite significantly and *would be the thing to brainstorm tradeoffs for* (i.e. clone generation or something); however it’s not a minor, and tradeoffs can’t be justified because of said trait unless anet moves it (and if they do, to replace what, and why?)

I don’t know why I’m here but-

Dodging: I can dodge the 6k fireballs from We Bleed Fire. I usually do anyway, since i pug a lot with people who don’t bring projectile hate. Is this a counter? Maybe, but now I’ve just lost a dodge for nothing in return. So no, it’s not a real counter, it’s more of a ‘thing players can do if they decide not to bring the proper counter’ or a ‘backup counter which isn’t really a real counter’ if you need to see it that way.

This is the same with Slope: I dodge, I lose an endurance bar, I get nothing advantageous in return (and additionally cuz I don’t play mirage I have to repostion from that arbitrary 300 units moved, with Slope xD). Again, same as Fire; it’s a backup fake counter for people who didn’t bring the proper counter, which we’re still discussing whether it actually exists or not.

Teleports: if this is a ‘counter’, I call it class/spec discrimintation. Not all builds have equal access to teleport skills, with some not having any at all. The Fire instab technically suffers from the same issue since core warrior lacks projectile hate, but it’s at least ONE scenario that’s at least counterable because there’s a trait that makes blocks reflect and then there’s also Defiant Stance. Comparing 20s Jaunt + Axes of Symmetry to 40s+ CD teleport skills or none at all when Slope has practically 100% uptime is simply not viable.

Backpedalling: GW2 combat is designed so that you’d always want to be ready to be on the move - Hamstrung (w/o dodging) is a representation of why you wouldn’t want movement to be restricted. It just happens that the first initial 2-3s of accelerating with Slope is practically pseudo-Hamstrung and adding ~1s trying to stop by backpedalling means potentially being ~3s in an area where you don’t want to be. It’s more advantageous to pre-calculate where the sliding will stop, and use the remaining momentum to move out if the way if necessary.

However, this backpedal feature is not really a real counter you can take to nullify the whole effect. The instab is the same as switching the keys of your skills around in specific order without you being able to change the keys from the options window. Maybe you’d eventually get used to it, others won’t, but ultimately and *especially* to them, there’s nothing *they* can do about it. So it’s not a proper counter, and it’s also why people don’t like instabs that currently just ‘exist’ but at least they’re not as game changing as 100% uptime Slope.

The current list of counters, besides teleports, which isn’t even spread out fairly across classes, is insufficient to say that they were any PROPER, REAL counters that existed for the mechanics changing, nuisance instability called Slippery Slope. Until much more impactful counters are presented, the gw2 community will continue to perceive that there is none.

> @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > > @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > > > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > > > > @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > > > > Another thing to talk about is if ether feast should get a utility category and whether decoy, mirror images, phantasmal disenchanter and phantasmal defender should get a category.

> > > > They used to have its own ‘category’ in Illu in the form of Illusionist’s Celerity (-15% CD of all illusion skills), and draws benefits from the range of traits that deal with clone/phantasms anyway. Apart from appropriate CD shaves, its not too serious to address.

> > > > > phantasmal fury

> > > > Unless it’s a direct buff, don’t touch this unless you want to die. Just kidding, but this trait is literally 1/5 of phantasms’ crit chance, why in the world would we want to delete that (unless more reworks to phantasms is warranted :trollface:)?

> > >

> > > we already have 3 traits in deparate traitlines for phantasm damage: empowered illusions (domi), phantasmal fury (dueling), phantasmal force (illusions).

> > Unlike basic +dmg% traits, you’d need to resubstiute it’s functionality elsewhere since it turns phantasms from RNG dmg luck to reliable crit machines. It’s currently impossible to reach 100% crit chance on phantasms unless running full assassins Danger Time, in which I believe that trait is flawed since PvE dps chronos do like absolutely nothing to provide that slow. They’re all in appropriate spots since ez crit increasing traits can be randomly found in the ‘condi dmg’ traitline on some classes (Radiance, Firearms, Curses at the top of my head) and dmg increasing traits can be spread randomly across multiple trait lines (see Ele - Fire, Air, Arcane... even Water has one and Earth, but it’s pretty bad in comparison).

> >

> > Unless you mean to say, ‘thematically, Domi should increase dmg from the actual mesmer, and Illu should increase effectiveness of illusions,’ then I’d agree to some extent, otherwise please don’t mess around with my PvE stuff without asking nicely first :smile: it’s why this mes forum exists.

> >

> > Edit: whilst I’m still here, I can point out that the middle trait choices in Insp (sorry going back there again) currently don’t have a group supportive trait; I have sights set upon Protected Phantasms but would like to see whether people think the same first.

>

> Inspiration already has two utility traits so I dislike that.

The old trait line and utility setup as you had described it was probably the most ideal setup before it changed. The problem is that healing using the spammable 1s CD of mantra of pain became a thing (which is really weird in my eyes) and that there was ‘some’ synergy between the distortion on signet activation and Inspiring Distortion (which got gutted heavily anyway) so the devs decided to put both traits into inspiration - the more ‘group support-ish’ trait line while the actual skills themselves had totally nothing to do with group support. On the contrary, glamours skills screamed group support all this time yet they decided to remove for what reasons? Beats me.

> @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > > @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > > Another thing to talk about is if ether feast should get a utility category and whether decoy, mirror images, phantasmal disenchanter and phantasmal defender should get a category.

> > They used to have its own ‘category’ in Illu in the form of Illusionist’s Celerity (-15% CD of all illusion skills), and draws benefits from the range of traits that deal with clone/phantasms anyway. Apart from appropriate CD shaves, its not too serious to address.

> > > phantasmal fury

> > Unless it’s a direct buff, don’t touch this unless you want to die. Just kidding, but this trait is literally 1/5 of phantasms’ crit chance, why in the world would we want to delete that (unless more reworks to phantasms is warranted :trollface:)?

>

> we already have 3 traits in deparate traitlines for phantasm damage: empowered illusions (domi), phantasmal fury (dueling), phantasmal force (illusions).

Unlike basic +dmg% traits, you’d need to resubstiute it’s functionality elsewhere since it turns phantasms from RNG dmg luck to reliable crit machines. It’s currently impossible to reach 100% crit chance on phantasms unless running full assassins Danger Time, in which I believe that trait is flawed since PvE dps chronos do like absolutely nothing to provide that slow. They’re all in appropriate spots since ez crit increasing traits can be randomly found in the ‘condi dmg’ traitline on some classes (Radiance, Firearms, Curses at the top of my head) and dmg increasing traits can be spread randomly across multiple trait lines (see Ele - Fire, Air, Arcane... even Water has one and Earth, but it’s pretty bad in comparison).

Unless you mean to say, ‘thematically, Domi should increase dmg from the actual mesmer, and Illu should increase effectiveness of illusions,’ then I’d agree to some extent, otherwise please don’t mess around with my PvE stuff without asking nicely first :smile: it’s why this mes forum exists.

Edit: whilst I’m still here, I can point out that the middle trait choices in Insp (sorry going back there again) currently don’t have a group supportive trait; I have sights set upon Protected Phantasms but would like to see whether people think the same first.

Would anyone happen to know whether player minions take the 100% hit from We Bleed Fire or reduced percentage (-95%) of it? If it’s 100%, our ‘minions’ are kinda screwed from the 6k fireballs from bosses (especially clones and phantasms as a class mechanic) but if not... it’s still kinda weird to have to AI tanking lethal balls of death for us, but if it works, then that’s fine I guess (flesh wurm on uncat is a thing so this wouldn’t be too weird).

> @"Quadox.7834" said:

> Another thing to talk about is if ether feast should get a utility category and whether decoy, mirror images, phantasmal disenchanter and phantasmal defender should get a category.

They used to have its own ‘category’ in Illu in the form of Illusionist’s Celerity (-15% CD of all illusion skills), and draws benefits from the range of traits that deal with clone/phantasms anyway. Apart from appropriate CD shaves, its not too serious to address.

> phantasmal fury

Unless it’s a direct buff, don’t touch this unless you want to die. Just kidding, but this trait is literally 1/5 of phantasms’ crit chance, why in the world would we want to delete that (unless more reworks to phantasms is warranted :trollface:)?

In all honesty, if you seek to learn/practise current endgame tactics as any role besides a support or tank, or in WvW/PvP (where you’d actually play that game mode instead), one thing that you learn quickly is that the *damage meta* overshadows a disgustingly large portion of PvE, only excluding extreme solo (solo-ing things that are not meant to be solo-ed), just due to the design of the game. The faster you accept this, the more prepared of a player you become for ‘lv 80 content’, which the levelling process is supposedly meant to do.

It really doesn’t help how necros are naturally resilient, and lacks a lot of additional defensive options outside of watching minions slowly eating away at everything. Ideally, like many other people have said, you’d want stack as much of power (main) -> precision -> ferocity + dmg% mods if playing power, or condition damage (main) -> precision -> power + condi procs if playing no expac condi/DoTs (don’t mix both), whilst ignoring all of toughness, vitality and healing power.

Edit: something I haven’t seen yet, if running power, always take Signet of Spite. Any signet that grants additional power is OP whilst levelling.

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > > I partially agree.

> > > It is true that clones are a resource such as adrenaline and the profession is crippled by that.

> > > A rework would likely kill what so many people like about mesmer, but I personally would welcome it.

> >

> > Here is hoping our next e spec is a cloneless one

>

> I hope so too, but also hope that ANet don't forget to buff skills or stats while cloneless akin to soulbeast.

If we go one step farther for the proposed espec and completely remove all ai gameplay (i.e. phantasms), the mesmer could just ‘throw away the fancy deceptive stuff to empower themselves and dominate their enemies *for real*’, inheriting all illusion and phantasm traits. I could easily see +15% from Empowered Illusions, and a hefty +25% under ideal conditions from Phantasmal Force. There’s also a condition component from Sharper Images that could be used (5-10s bleeding per crit).

However, this might cause some unbalanced synergies like generating 10s fury, 5s aegis and or 3s quickness on self everytime a ‘phantasm’ skill is used (now done by the mesmer themself) depending on traits, and some traits would have to be modified in some manner - Sympathetic Visage may be changed to just clear a condition on using a phantasm skill, and Persistence of Memory may be changed to grant boons to nearby allies after using phantasm skills (but will have to be restricted in some way, or else it would become Signet of Inspiration v.2).

The shatters and clone-reliant skills and traits would also have to be addressed. Shatters may have to be redesigned or have a set strength. We obviously can’t summon clones anymore, so Illusionary Leap, Mirror Images, Signet of Illusions passive, Deceptive Evasion and Escape Artist would need to provide some other effect (left out the other skills since they already have somewhat decent functionality w/o the clone). Skills and traits that rely on summoning illusions would also need to be changed/modified somehow.

The biggest downside to this idea that I can see is that the espec would change mesmer into basically a glassier warrior that has mesmer tools attached to it. PvE-wise this isn’t too important, besides perhaps the class being less unique or interesting to play. In PvP however (which I don’t play), instead of mirage or illusion spam QQ, there would probably be a rise of ‘OP oneshot (illusionary swordsman skill) + Mind Wrack + Mind Spike + (whatever else espec brings) from stealth while having perma aegis/quickness/whatever’ complaints.

Ideally, I’d post an espec suggestion for this, but I don’t think I have the dedication to write up and decide how all the components would interact with each other.

> @"flog.3485" said:

> Is it really a problem though with low cooldown on sword off-hand and double disenchanter with mimic ?

I think there’s a significant difference between being able to summon up to 28 phantasms (split combo + chronophantasma) compared to 8 as part as your **burst**, which is probably one of the biggest reasons you’d play power dps. Although full dps core mes has probably the most actual dmg modifiers, the fact that phantasms have such low cd (as you have stated) means that CP will usually win because it gets to be used so much, at least for PvE.

> @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> now it's one Signet less

It’s not one signet less, it’s just way more complex to pull of since it requires more clones and coordination now since all components must be off CD at the same time.

> @"Me Games Ma.8426" said:

> As I have said above we'll probably go from using (Sword, Disen, Def) in a 4 4 4 scenario to a 4 3 2 scenario. As swordsman is the highest damaging phantasm we will probably priorize this one. For GS where we did (Zerk, Disen, Def) 4 4 4 we will now probably do 4 4 2 (as we have more initial clones. Keep in mind that a 3 clone start will make it possible to still run 4 4 4 on both builds (e.g. MO Sw4 precasting).

I’m already pretending that patch already hit, so I’ve replaced mantra with mirror images. This way I get most of my entire burst back, but minus some extra dps from the periodical power spike (which could always be replaced by SoI anyway). I’ve always been playing IA focus so the DT nerf doesn’t mean much personally, and I don’t think the change isn’t completely death-of-spec drastic - maybe still be hovering around 30k, DT at 33-35k post patch, but I don’t do benchmarks. Also the highest benchmarks would likely drop a bit due to bannershave (which sadly hits pchrono harder than a lot of other specs).

This does however make the pchrono rotation somewhat more interesting because the combo is now longer (3s -> 4.5/6s) with only 1 or 2s of distort to cover because dodging breaks the combo (hello perma-blind birds, consta-rupt molten zerker, siren’s reef and now brazen gladiator, I’ve always hated you since I play this spec), and requires 2 or 3 clones as opposed to 1. The spec definitely won’t be as braindead compared to before.

Now I’m just waiting for patch to hit to see the differences between ~6 ish variants of pchrono, dom/illu (gs/focus), DT/IA and mantra/images, if people are willing to test them all...

On a random note, even if the phantasm refresh bug/feature was existent for some time, I don’t think the double heal from SoE was intended. Also for the extra crit chance on DT, I believe it would be better to place it within core mes (maybe duel) so all power mes variants, including future ones, aren’t pigeonholed into assassin gear. The dmg mod could be increased and split two-way between quickness on self and slow on foe, or three-way with quickness, alacrity and slow. And well of calamity, does it even exist anymore?

> @"kasoki.5180" said:

> I have re-read this skill change few times now and I have to admit I am not sure i understand what it exactly means.

>

> On topic of danger time. Power Chrono was strong and used even before recent changes to danger time. And if i'm not mistaken back then Improved Alacrity was taken. Danger time made it way to strong and its the change that realistically shouldn't have been introduced.

>

> Overall, I think that power chrono is far from dead with these new changes.

The common interpretation is that the signet of ether continuum split phantasm refresh *feature* that allowed you to cast 4 sets of phantasms back to back was removed, and after patch you will only be able to cast 3 sets max. This doesn’t only affect damage via phantasms, but also clone generation and related mods and skills (e.g. mind wrack and ammo for other shatters).

Power chrono is (currently) strong within certain contexts (solo play, low buff environment) but has fundamental flaws that make it somewhat unfavourable to other options, most of which arise from the the build’s burst potential. pchrono’s dmg layout can be considered condi-like despite actually being power - its burst requires build up, doesn’t really peak but is more spread out and completely flubbers when the target dies or phases. pchrono’s burst is also fairly infrequent and risky to perform, sitting at a 60-105s cd depending on traits and alacrity uptime. A bird instab (frequent blinds), interrupts or forced dodge can ruin most of the csplit combo. This change dumbs down the flawed burst even more.

The nerf to danger time was warranted, before pchrono sat at 33-34k, DT raised that to 40k+ but now players predict pchrono is going to bench at ~26k, now with an even weaker burst.

This shouldn’t be implemented until bosses/world events with oneshot skills/mechanics or combo potential are addressed. Probably the most glaring example is Chak Gerent, who can do 9k lunges which can occasionally hit twice, 12k donuts, 13k cave ins for a boss that people don’t want cc’ed so they can ‘do more dmg’ while ppl, potentially the actual heavy hitters, are being murdered, and no one bothers to res even just downs because they’re either too lazy or it’s way too dangerous to do so anyway...

These are world events, so we must to consider problems that can occur when having excess players in the vicinity - lag, invisible aoes and enemies, people disconnecting, etc. Therefore you get additional issues like not being able dodge in time and not seeing what you need to dodge. Imagine landing on Mat’s platform in the middle of the cone aoe (that hits for 4k per second or so) which is invisible. Or get oneshot by a minor wyvern you can’t see.

On top of all this, WPs are progressively increasing their distance to the events, even more with the introduction of mounts. Wp’ing is a risk - you can lose rewards if you don’t get back there on time (especially if you don’t have a mount), and sometimes loading screens or sufficient lag (because excess players) is all it takes for the effort and rewards to completely vanish.

If the scaling facts listed above are true, dead players stop scaling the event once dead and the choice of ressing is up to you. Players who died horribly cheap deaths would really appreciate it, and players who do more than just AA spam would find it touching when ppl sacrifice their 1-2k dps to restore their 10-20k dps.

In PvP (the gamemode I don’t really deal with) the skill seems to have low impact - while players prefer not to touch it, the danger of going straight through, sometimes even multiple times, with only a 0.1 dmg coefficient and minor burning, seems to be a minor risk. Without a massive overhaul, damage buffs as people have suggested would do much improvement to the skill and its intended function.

Switch over to PvE, the focus goes from being the ‘self-defensive’ option to meta for condi dps, mainly because this skill is practically Condi Font (or lava font v2) where all hits are expected to hit. The issue with the skill in this gamemode however, is not the damage (though it should be buffed to deal some noticeable power damage), it’s the fact that the skill is a hard-to-aim, line AoE that erratic enemies have trouble staying in. Adding CC would only nerf its damage role, and I don’t think granting boons works either as focus is a mostly selfish kit.

For the case of specific non-static enemies, I suggest that PvE-only flamewall should deal bonus, more damaging hits against foes upon both entering and leaving the wall, hitting both times if a mob passes through. This way, the skill has some actual use by predicting the targets’ path rather than only placing the wall directly on targets, and using the skill wouldn’t be punished randomly when the enemy decides not to sit in the wall anymore. For particularly rarer PvE cases where enemies who like to waltz in and out of the wall, this change could be somewhat broken, but random cases already happen with things like dancing back and forth on Test of Faith, sudden confusion proc spikes, etc.

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> You know what ANet is like

Meteor shower ‘fix’ (nerf) applied to mirror blade? Or maybe something weirder like making gs phantasms cast hundred blades or gravedigger instead of whirlwind attack?

A suggestion that I have in mind is that clones (but not phantasms) gain x seconds of x% dmg and condi duration reduction upon creation but is instantly lost upon shattering. Considering a cleave skill or AoE that could maybe hit for 4k, 80% reduction only reduces this to 800, which is still 1/4(?) of a clones hp. Another and additional suggestion is to make illusions scale with the amount of players being faced, similar to how PvE player number scaling works.

On another note, I’d personally also like tankier clones and invulnerable phantasms in PvE too.

Theoretically you can use birds to blind a good amount of the adds that spawn throughout the entire fractal, but for some reason the birds can fail to transfer and end up spawning more trash to deal with. Both aren’t particularly tanky, but can deal some damage to glass and require effort to kill if not caught in cleaves/aoes. This becomes more of struggle though when you lack an aoe/cleave heavy spec like guard or necro (usually DH and reaper). This fractal doesn’t support mostly-single target and maybe some DoT dps-style specs very well.

tbh and imo, if we argue about high tier meta strats, they probably nuke the boss(es) in way under a minute, making mechanics and specific build compositions kind of unimportant. However, the pug average from my experience, even if running meta, is nowhere near capable of achieving this.

Basically what @"mortrialus.3062" said.

There are few things I want to point out however, regarding mirage vs chrono, mirage is still considered more superior and easier to pickup (also less buggy) in terms of dps (not burst!) but chrono has both options in power-based dps and support. In instanced content however, people tend to assume chronos are always support/not good at dps, which can be annoying at times. If you play mirage though, you’d be more effective using condis and playing axe or scepter, and not GS.

For GS, it’s not necessarily that it’s bad (IMO it’s still the best at bursting down singular trash mobs), it’s just that double swords is vastly superior, with MH sword having the most dmg AA wise + Blurred Frenzy which is both a burst skill and evade, and OH sword with the highest dmg phantasm (which is spammed using Signet of Ether + Continuum Split if chrono). To match this, GS needs to take its specific trait, Imagined Burden, trading Illusions (better for burst dmg through illusions + self buffs) for Domination (better at sustained dps). Nevertheless, open world seems to incentivise having ranged options anyway, and having GS is never a bad choice.

> @"Dahir.4158" said:

> @"Noodle Ant.1605" I don't think you really understand what is going on.

Didn’t have enough information then and was only speaking from what the wiki said.

There’s slightly more context now, mainly that skill fails to properly rally you, even w/o poison. But that raises some new questions:

- Is this bug effective across all game modes, or mostly one of them?

- Does this bug occur in an isolated environment (where you’re literally by yourself, nothing is affecting you)?

- How often does this bug occur?

I think I do remember experiencing this same bug under the same circumstances (no poison) over a while ago, but it was *very* rare and I chalked it down to lag, where it usually occurred (I believed that I just took too much dmg between when I pressed the skill and when it actually cast). This skill requires a call for concern anyway, since an unintentional failure to rally completely removes ele’s ability to avoid being finished/stomped prematurely. It should fixed to always work at 100% functionality (speaking from all game modes).

> @"tiewan.1086" said:

> So how do you avoid the retreat? Is it directional or can it be dodged?

Retreat on the reef drake is an instant cast skill that makes the drake ‘retreat’ backwards whilst leaving a number of smallish-yet-still quite-big damaging fields behind. Because it is instant cast, there is no real way to actively mitigate the damage, besides not being within melee range at all when it decides to use this skill.

There been cases where I have had to fight 2 vet drakes at once (ember bay sloth escort), once they simultaneously timed their retreat which resulted in practically an instadown since it both crit for ~7k (base dmg was already at ~4k). There’s also been scenarios where I’ve noticed I’m fighting too many drakes at once, but then another one comes from somewhere with the pull skill while the rest proceeded to ‘retreat’... I practically skipped downstate.

This skill however is only one of many broken skills and mechanics that gw2 ‘trash mobs’ have.

> @"Dahir.4158" said:

> Nah, I'm telling you, the actual downed skill will go on cooldown and NOT work. In its place, me (the user) will get more downed health instead. Trust me, it's a bug. This thing never happened before and has only started occurring recently in the last couple of weeks.

Isn’t that what I’m saying? What I meant is that the heal portion of the skill can be reduced so much that whilst it still heals you, it’s not enough to rally and activate the vapor form part of the skill. I’ve known this to be case way before the last couple of weeks because this is how it had always been working from my experience, and I’ve experienced it myself more than a handful of times.

If it helps, search up Vapor Form in the gw2 wiki. I think you’ll might find a similar answer.

How Vapor Form works is that it heals you so you able to rally from downstate and then actually initiate the skill.

Keeping in mind that downstate health is apparently *3 times your max hp*, the heal required to get you back up is generally quite large. However, with healing reduction conditions such as poison (33%) and agony (80%), this can impact the skill so much that it isn’t able to heal enough to revive you. This is most easily reproducible using agony rather than poison, because poison alone I don’t think should be enough to stop the skill from activating properly.

Power mesmer (pchrono) is not ‘optimal’ but still insanely strong in its own way, just don’t expect to get accepted by serious groups very easily (ones that ask for ultra-specific requirements).

One thing you’ll have to deal with is that people will likely assume you’re playing sup chrono, unless you tell them directly. Even then, you’ll have to prove yourself that you are decent dps, and you may be asked to still do some mesmer specific things because... mesmer :frown: