UNOwen.7132

I mean the nerfs, in a vacuum, make sense. Consume Plasma was stupidly busted. Essence Sap, idk, if this is just a bugfix disguised as a nerf (it did more damage than intended), then sure. Infilitrators Arrow is one skill that carries the entire class, it is too good. Signet of agility, eh, its an ok nerf I guess? It wasnt even a mandatory utility, so it feels a bit odd, but I digress. My worry is that theyre just planning to make thief worse without compensation. Because that wont work. Either thief moves faster than everyone else and is mandatory, or it doesnt, and is unplayable and worth reporting for. If you want to reduce thieves reliance on being the fastest, they have to have something else to have a reason to be picked.

I mean, I dont disagree with the change. The skill is the only reason thief is viable in PvP at all. Its carrying the entire class, while ensuring that the decap and +1 bot is the only playstyle allowed for thief. My issue is that there is a high risk they just remove thieves mobility without any compensation, at which point the nerf is pointless at best, and risks making the class entirely unplayable at worst.

Yeah, "great" patch. Just straight up kills core engineer because of Holo, instead of, yknow, hitting Holo? Man the balance just got so much worse after the february patch. At this point Id just revert every single change since and including that patch.

> @"ASP.8093" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"ASP.8093" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > I mean, you can remove the unblockable too. It uh, basically never matters, especially since Shortbow 4 is unblockable daze for some time now. > > > > > > Makes a big difference when breaking Spellbreaker Bubbles, though, doesn't it? > > > > Ignoring that you hardly ever even see a Spellbreaker ... Id rather just wait out the bubble? Against Warriors I think Id much rather interrupt their big heal, than cancel a block prematurely. Especially the spellbreaker one. > > I'm talking about playing Staff Daredevil in zerg-vs-zerg: one of your few really good "special tricks" is messing up the bubble on a melee push. Oh you mean winds of disenchantment? You can just stop that with a regular steal, you dont even need the unblockable. Since, yknow, he wont be blocking during it. And Aegis, if he somehow obtained it, would just be boonripped.

> @"subversiontwo.7501" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > * It actually is just one thing. Shortbow 5. It means they can always escape, and the rest of the class basically doesnt matter as a result. > > *And even with all of that, thief is *really* bad against most condi builds. They can handle mesmer because plasma is op, but otherwise? You run, or you die. > > *You already mentioned cleanse on dodge, which isnt very good. Stealth on dodge is Rifle Deadeye, which is really bad, and also cant be used with that "cleanse on dodge" one. > > *Also, you keep saying "you can put more stealth", but ignoring that most of them dont even put in stealth (only D/P does, and only as a stunbreak, which is not replacing the supposed free space from the cleanse utilities they pick anyway), that isnt even the issue with thief. > > *Yeah except that doesnt add up. Thief has those traits, uses a lot of cleansing utility, and *still* dies to conditions. > > > I took the liberty to cut your post into pieces I find relevant. My apologies if I pull anything out of context to where it feels misconstrued. That is not the intention. > > I think you're making a mistake assuming this a dig at Thieves duelling-, power- or general fighting strength. It is not. In fact, same as with my first post, there are certainly areas in which the Thief as a class can see improvement to its fighting ability (larger scale combat is one of those). I'm not suggesting that the Thief is a poor duelist either, it's fairly popular among above average players there too for a reason. However, it is not necessarily a problem in that context. > I mean, it depends on how you define duelist. Is it good at fighting on equal ground? No. It loses those fights unless it runs away. But run away is what it always does. > Instead, this is about the general reset ability and what that does to the game in a larger scope. How it feeds into negative behaviours in that larger score and affects content. It lets experienced players bully new players. It premiers ganking and it allows players to deny content to too high of a degree. I'd also say that is primarily what has lead to a profileration of the class in recent years (while the class has always been a popular roamer). > Sure, but again, thats just what shortbow 5 does. That should be the focus of the change, because take shortbow 5 away, and thief is not even the best class for resetting anymore (not by a long shot, even. > With that said, in a context of general roaming and clouding rather than organized roaming and duelling I rarely see players shoot away with SB5. That is at least not the primary mean to reset and re-enage over and over. While you call those traits and builds that use them bad, you do see them quite frequently. There are plenty of players trolling around using both DE and DD builds with those traits. Not necessarily because it lets them win against an equally many, good or prepared players on condition builds but because it lets them play non-commitedly and gank less experienced or roaming-prepared players regardless if they are power, condi or support heavy. > Its the only means, actually. Well, ok, you can shadowstep away as well, but you usually only burn shadowstep if you really messed up, because its your most valuable cooldown. Sure, you see thieves using stealth to try and disengage, but thats the bad thieves, and theyll only do it until they face a good play who promptly kills them for trying to disengage through stealth. And you really dont see them all that much. I mean you cant tell that well when facing them, unless you count the time on their cooldown and have the health math in head, but if you do, you realise almost none of them are using it. Just not really worth it. > It's the balance of picking the fights and re-picking the fights or all the trolling opportunities in various ways that comes with it that is my gripe with it. It isn't necessarily even an issue for me but rather an issue that I see looking at other players who get driven out the mode. I've been around this game mode for long enough to know how to adapt enough to fight most players to a draw at least. There may be times when I am on a risky build, feel like I've earnt a kill and get annoyed by the resets and content denial but I do not necessarily play that way very much and that is far less a concern for me in general than what I see it do to other players who are newer, less adaptable or more subjected to content denial and trolling. > Again, this can be solved through hitting shortbow 5, and only through that. Dunno what youd change there though, its certainly not easy. > I'm not even suggesting that Thieves shouldn't be (one of-) the best roaming, resetting and underhanded classes. It's the ridiculous balance of it, which has lead to the implementation of tower debuffs, supply debuffs etc., and rising amount of problem-related behaviour and players adding to it. It comes back to those hamfisted counters that have been implemented as well. They're not there to even out the fighting-strength of Thieves in an engagement. They are there to check the reset-ganking behaviour a bit. They are just, obviously, doing a rather poor job at it and these things should never have been balanced that way. They're only there because no one can be bothered to find a better balance between resets and keeping the Thief's gameplay engaging. > Those were done to placate players who lack knowledge and skill to punish stealth. Here is the problem: Stealth is already bad against good players even without those. What youre doing is essentially suggesting to make a skill they use bad against new players, and even more unusable against good players. While not fixing the issue, because SB5 is still there. For that matter, you will *always* have a class like that. Take away SB5, and its Rangers and Warriors who can run from and engage on everything. Take that away and its probably elementalists or Mesmers next.

> @"ASP.8093" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > I mean, you can remove the unblockable too. It uh, basically never matters, especially since Shortbow 4 is unblockable daze for some time now. > > Makes a big difference when breaking Spellbreaker Bubbles, though, doesn't it? Ignoring that you hardly ever even see a Spellbreaker ... Id rather just wait out the bubble? Against Warriors I think Id much rather interrupt their big heal, than cancel a block prematurely. Especially the spellbreaker one.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"Yasai.3549" said: > > The people finding issue with Thief isn't in group v group. > > And any thief that shows themselves in a group v group gets dumpstered, and any group having a thief need to rely on the thief not fighting to pull their worth. > > > > It's all so utterly silly. > > Crazy idea but what if we got rid of Ini system and give Thief some actual skills with bite, but placing them on a cooldown? > > And everytime they Steal, they will by default refresh one of their skills? > > > > I mean pretty sure people are tired of having spammable weak skills right? > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > > Why doesn't it, cuz u dont think it fits? Who made the rule high mobility= low burst? > > > > Lmao, Power Mesmer, Power Rev, Power Warrior, Power Soulbeast and even to some extent Power Holo literally defies the idea of "high mobility = low burst" > > > > my idea for thief was that they would have skills with cooldowns as anyone else, but once per cooldown they would be able to bypass the cooldown and pay it in initiative instead. inc ini pool to like 100, have 5 ini reg/s. and skills cost ~40-60 ini depending on impact. > that was thief has to know what their skills actually do instead of using only 2-3, maybe it would take some effort to play the class, also also. This would fix the stealth blast spamming, 6s while in combat, 12s out of combat if you switch between sets. Actually balanced. The reason thief only uses 2-3 (usually fewer) is because the other ones are *bad*. With your suggestion, youd need to buff and rework a whole lot of skills. Seriously, headshot as a cooldown skill would be even worse than it already is, and poor S/D thief would be outright disfunctional. Or P/D thief, but people particularly hate that one, so eh. Oh and P/P thief would go from "unviable" to "troll build you should be reported for".

> @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said: > Reverting it would be acceptable, increasing the range as it is would not. It's unblockable and an instant cast, remember. > I mean, you can remove the unblockable too. It uh, basically never matters, especially since Shortbow 4 is unblockable daze for some time now. > I hate to pull the victim card, but I'm still mad core Necro had Doom nerfed because it was an instant ranged CC even though it always had a tell _(an image of a Reaper appears above the Necro)._ Steal is 1200 range, instant, and can be traited to Daze... ? > Don't get me wrong though, they're different classes so it isn't totally fair to make this comparison. I just get frustrated that things like this exist when Doom had plenty of counterplay as it was pre-nerf, but other things are allowed to keep their instant ranged CC's. > Fear is a lot stronger than daze, thats the big thing. > I do agree that Swipe is a very short range though and would support a very small increase, but I think even 900 is too much. 750 should be the absolute max for an instant cast unblockable skill. People *really* overvalue the unblockable, 95% of the time it doesnt do anything.

> @"subversiontwo.7501" said: > The effort and argumentation would suggest this is just a lowball troll, but since the thread is sitting here anyway: > > The issue with Thieves is hardly their steal, in fact, when people discuss that the Thief should be nerfed that also comes with some understanding that bad things that have been put in place to limit the Thief should also be removed. The nerf to swipe over steal is a pretty nonsensical nerf that presumably was just added to give some trade-off when ArenaNet was hellbent at finding trade-offs for certain elite specs. That project, like most things WvW and balance, is seemingly half-way abandoned. I can't speak for everyone else but I also consider nerfs to the Thief so things like tower/guard reveals and supply reveals can be deleted. It is better if characters are balanced by characters. > > With that said, as has been repeated far too many times already, the issues with the Thief mostly lies in combinations of its core mechanics with the unique resource system they have relative other classes cooldowns and their stealth/escapes. It's not just one thing but a combination of creep that exist over their resources and traits that let them focus the entire build around their core mechanics a get a bunch of other things for free. > It actually is just one thing. Shortbow 5. It means they can always escape, and the rest of the class basically doesnt matter as a result. Well, there is out of combat stealth stacking for keeps, but frankly, thats such an easy fix it wouldnt take very long. > For example, having traits that remove conditions while stealthed and/or dodging means that you do not have to divert cooldown-dependent utility skills to that and can just load up your utilities with more stealth, escapes and resource-modifiers. So it gets more stealth and through more stealth also more cleanse etc., it becomes a self-inflating system where you can just load up a bunch of stealth and escapes while other classes have to make tough choices. > Lets ignore for a second how many traits like that exist. Lets also ignore for a second that theyre not very good, to the point where only one of them is even being taken right now, and only rarely. Even then .... thief picks more condition-removing utility skills than most classes do. Thief picks 1.5-2.5 on average (counting withdraw as half a removal because its only movement-impairing ones and torment). The average roamer uses *0-1*. The only other profession to use more than 1 is Warrior. And only recently, ever since healing signet was nerfed to hell. Well, some Reapers also do it, I think? So, if that was the goal, then they failed to accomplish that entirely. And even with all of that, thief is *really* bad against most condi builds. They can handle mesmer because plasma is op, but otherwise? You run, or you die. > The elite specs have added to this by providing further stealth on dodge, cleanse on dodge and so on. If ArenaNet wanted to make a trade-off there that is what they should have adressed, taking away some of the core spec's access to stealth/escape mechanics from the elites' kits. The steal was never such a thing. Furthermore this also conflates with the base resource management because, for example, if you can put more stealth in your utilities from free cleanses then you can use less resources to achieve stealth from weapons that way and reserve- or compound your stealths for longer or more stealth etc. For example, the amount of leaps a D/P setup can do in its smoke field is problematic and counter-intuitive to begin with. If smoke is produced by a utility that compounds. > You already mentioned cleanse on dodge, which isnt very good. Stealth on dodge is Rifle Deadeye, which is really bad, and also cant be used with that "cleanse on dodge" one. The good Deadeye build doesnt even use the cleanse on stealth one either, so its not even that. Also, you keep saying "you can put more stealth", but ignoring that most of them dont even put in stealth (only D/P does, and only as a stunbreak, which is not replacing the supposed free space from the cleanse utilities they pick anyway), that isnt even the issue with thief. > Thieves are not the only class that has recieved traits like these (top tier functionality added to core class-unbound mechanics) but since the root Thief class mechanics are so strong such unbound mechanics just scale away even more on Thief than on other classes for who those mechanics are also powerful. For example, Warriors have had traits that at certain times have merged into very powerful combinations with their cleanses on swaps or breaks on movement-skills but those are not added ontop of such powerful class mechanics as stealth and initiative. > Yeah except that doesnt add up. Thief has those traits, uses a lot of cleansing utility, and *still* dies to conditions. Meanwhile Guardians run 1 if any, and they can just shrug it off, because they have actually strong base mechanics. Warrior is also usually better for 1v1s, until most recent nerfs. > Those are examples of things that need a look at. And like I said, I want them looked at because I want the bad tower- and supply mechanics thrown out. Those should never have been added (or been needed to be added) in the first place if the systems (skills and balance) team had done their due dilligence before the balance splits of PvE and competetive. They can look at it, see that your story doesnt add up, and discard it, if you want that.

> @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > @"Raiden The Beast.3016" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > > @"Frodox.1283" said: > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > @"Frodox.1283" said: > > > > > > > Well, as a former Thief I can say that it's pretty bad. I mean even if u for some reason pick SA, many classes can reveal u, like warrior's shout and even if with your mobility u're almost unkillable, what's the point if u Can get killed by one combo or perma fear and just running around isn't much helpful. + In many games I'd encounter not brain-dead opponents who would camp their point so I couldn't even decap and winning 1v1 either took really long or I was obliterated by cc / 2 hits. Since I'm in a trash League I could win most of the 1v1s easily tho, but competent opponents were hard to deal with or I'd just insta die. Stealth isn't Op, it's just annoying and pistol 5 could be useful in teamfights but wait, blind can be insta condi cleaned and even if they wouldn't for some reason, it's not like u can deal solid dmg so 5(blinded)v4 isn't that much of a deal. Anyways tip for thief players: Switching class was pretty relaxing cause all other classes (tried all, currently ele+war player) are in a better state rn. So don't waste your time, enjoy the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > the reason why you cant climb out of trash league is cuz you dont even understand what you are supposed to do, there is a reason why at high ranking team without thief will lose, and people will swap to thief just to not auto lose the game. If enemies afk on a node to stop you from decaping then leave them to it and win X+1 VS X and enjoy free snowball, kill stagger and free win. > > > > > > > > > > Guess what, thief dmg isn't that good I mean I can go to the enemy point + try 1v1, but by the time I get back to mid my team will loose badly in most of the games. so I've tried healbreaker and I can just go mid cancer heal everyone to 100 almost insta and enjoy 4 kills = 20 points + enough time to rotate to remaining points. Theif is awesome in pve and decent in WvW tho so I guess u cannot have class good in every mode. My last point is, even tho thief is decent in PvP it can be outperformed in almost every field so it's not really worth, unless u really enjoy it or u're in higher ranks. > > > > > > > > I TOOK 3 DEFENSIVE TRAITLINES AND YET MY SKILLS STILL DEAL 5K DAMAGE EACH WITH DEFENSIVE ABILITIES INTEGRATED (be it blind, evade, stun or whatever)... IT'S NOT ENOUGH, I NEED DAMAGE BUFF :( :( :( SWIPE BEING INSTACAST RANGED UNBLOCKABLE CC THAT BYPASSES STABILITY IS NOT ENOUGH I NEED ANOTHER BUFF :( :( :( THIEF DEAD :( :( :( > > > > > > > > The absolute state of this class I stg > > > > > > Yeah I think youre like, 7 years out of date? In reality nowadays thief is "pick 3 *offensive* traitlines and still do less than 5k damage even with your backstab, let alone any of your other abilities". > > > > Agree, where these 5k should come from ? From a perfect condition backstep w/o any evade left, condi proc sigill and crit ? ... for sure these 5k arnt our super dooper 210crit AA's ... > > > > We r just in the meta bc of our mobility ... reach the +1 a bit faster than the real killers like rene/rev which is for sure an advantage in p2+ and mat or other tourneys but for the rest of the playerbase 95% it is garbage ? > > I get them daily. Anything a thief does hits between 4.5k and 5.5k, with perma blind and perma stealth on d\p, or perma evade if the thief feels original and runs something else > > Backstab? 4.5k from stealth, no ini cost too so it's free, good luck dodging it and even if you do, there's another one coming so who cares > Shadowshot? 4.5k + unblockable blind + range too > Cloak and dagger? 4.5k and stealth, sometimes damage is even higher, once I got hit for 8k and I'm still struggling to understand how tf dat happened. It doesn't have range but as any skill you can steal into it so it's fine > Pistol whip? Stun + evade + got hit for 6.8k after patch. Nobody runs it anymore, IDK why and I don't really care either, but the damage is there > Larcenous strike? 5k, unblockable. Yeah, range pretty poor and sadly, it's not like sword has an immobilize + 900 range teleport that ignores LOS > Cluster bomb? That one's more random, anything from 2.5k to 4.5k depending on how the RNG god blesses you. > ... how exactly do you think shadowshot, Larcenous Strike and CnD do the same amount of damage as backstab when they have at least 33% lower scaling, and often more than that? You realise the problem with your argument, right? In reality, they do around 3k, sometimes 2k. > Once any of that connects it's just a spam fiesta of heartseeker, which again, hits for at least 4k when used under the right conditions. And that's assuming the thief in question isn't even running condi, which brings a whole lot of different issues, -'cause the damage is still there-, but at least it can't chase\stealth as much so at least there's some room for some semblance of counterplay, 'cause in every other scenario the only way to deal with a thief is just to tank until the guy eventually gets bored and find something else to do. If you can't kill anyone despite having large access to unblockables, blinds, stealths, plenty of dodges, immunity to any kind of movement impeding conditions and what not it's kinda your fault 'cause the tools are there. > It hits for 4k if the enemy is really low. And condi thief isnt good, so Im not sure why youre bringing it up. And no, the tools arent there. Thief cant kill anyone in a 1v1, and its not supposed to. > All in all, everything a thief does hits 4k+, except autoattacks, you wanted grenade kit too? Can't really understand how all of these thieves can come up with all of that BS about being weak and underpowered, at this point it's either trolling or a serious fat fingers issue. Yeah except as you point out yourself (though only indirectly), only backstab does. Barely. Against squishy enemies.

> @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > @"Frodox.1283" said: > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > @"Frodox.1283" said: > > > > > > Well, as a former Thief I can say that it's pretty bad. I mean even if u for some reason pick SA, many classes can reveal u, like warrior's shout and even if with your mobility u're almost unkillable, what's the point if u Can get killed by one combo or perma fear and just running around isn't much helpful. + In many games I'd encounter not brain-dead opponents who would camp their point so I couldn't even decap and winning 1v1 either took really long or I was obliterated by cc / 2 hits. Since I'm in a trash League I could win most of the 1v1s easily tho, but competent opponents were hard to deal with or I'd just insta die. Stealth isn't Op, it's just annoying and pistol 5 could be useful in teamfights but wait, blind can be insta condi cleaned and even if they wouldn't for some reason, it's not like u can deal solid dmg so 5(blinded)v4 isn't that much of a deal. Anyways tip for thief players: Switching class was pretty relaxing cause all other classes (tried all, currently ele+war player) are in a better state rn. So don't waste your time, enjoy the game. > > > > > > > > > > the reason why you cant climb out of trash league is cuz you dont even understand what you are supposed to do, there is a reason why at high ranking team without thief will lose, and people will swap to thief just to not auto lose the game. If enemies afk on a node to stop you from decaping then leave them to it and win X+1 VS X and enjoy free snowball, kill stagger and free win. > > > > > > > > Guess what, thief dmg isn't that good I mean I can go to the enemy point + try 1v1, but by the time I get back to mid my team will loose badly in most of the games. so I've tried healbreaker and I can just go mid cancer heal everyone to 100 almost insta and enjoy 4 kills = 20 points + enough time to rotate to remaining points. Theif is awesome in pve and decent in WvW tho so I guess u cannot have class good in every mode. My last point is, even tho thief is decent in PvP it can be outperformed in almost every field so it's not really worth, unless u really enjoy it or u're in higher ranks. > > > > > > I TOOK 3 DEFENSIVE TRAITLINES AND YET MY SKILLS STILL DEAL 5K DAMAGE EACH WITH DEFENSIVE ABILITIES INTEGRATED (be it blind, evade, stun or whatever)... IT'S NOT ENOUGH, I NEED DAMAGE BUFF :( :( :( SWIPE BEING INSTACAST RANGED UNBLOCKABLE CC THAT BYPASSES STABILITY IS NOT ENOUGH I NEED ANOTHER BUFF :( :( :( THIEF DEAD :( :( :( > > > > > > The absolute state of this class I stg > > > > Yeah I think youre like, 7 years out of date? In reality nowadays thief is "pick 3 *offensive* traitlines and still do less than 5k damage even with your backstab, let alone any of your other abilities". > > Ok dagger\pistol Yes, thats the standard build. Thats the one does less than 5k damage on its backstab with 3 offensive traitlines.

> @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > @"Frodox.1283" said: > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > @"Frodox.1283" said: > > > > Well, as a former Thief I can say that it's pretty bad. I mean even if u for some reason pick SA, many classes can reveal u, like warrior's shout and even if with your mobility u're almost unkillable, what's the point if u Can get killed by one combo or perma fear and just running around isn't much helpful. + In many games I'd encounter not brain-dead opponents who would camp their point so I couldn't even decap and winning 1v1 either took really long or I was obliterated by cc / 2 hits. Since I'm in a trash League I could win most of the 1v1s easily tho, but competent opponents were hard to deal with or I'd just insta die. Stealth isn't Op, it's just annoying and pistol 5 could be useful in teamfights but wait, blind can be insta condi cleaned and even if they wouldn't for some reason, it's not like u can deal solid dmg so 5(blinded)v4 isn't that much of a deal. Anyways tip for thief players: Switching class was pretty relaxing cause all other classes (tried all, currently ele+war player) are in a better state rn. So don't waste your time, enjoy the game. > > > > > > the reason why you cant climb out of trash league is cuz you dont even understand what you are supposed to do, there is a reason why at high ranking team without thief will lose, and people will swap to thief just to not auto lose the game. If enemies afk on a node to stop you from decaping then leave them to it and win X+1 VS X and enjoy free snowball, kill stagger and free win. > > > > Guess what, thief dmg isn't that good I mean I can go to the enemy point + try 1v1, but by the time I get back to mid my team will loose badly in most of the games. so I've tried healbreaker and I can just go mid cancer heal everyone to 100 almost insta and enjoy 4 kills = 20 points + enough time to rotate to remaining points. Theif is awesome in pve and decent in WvW tho so I guess u cannot have class good in every mode. My last point is, even tho thief is decent in PvP it can be outperformed in almost every field so it's not really worth, unless u really enjoy it or u're in higher ranks. > > I TOOK 3 DEFENSIVE TRAITLINES AND YET MY SKILLS STILL DEAL 5K DAMAGE EACH WITH DEFENSIVE ABILITIES INTEGRATED (be it blind, evade, stun or whatever)... IT'S NOT ENOUGH, I NEED DAMAGE BUFF :( :( :( SWIPE BEING INSTACAST RANGED UNBLOCKABLE CC THAT BYPASSES STABILITY IS NOT ENOUGH I NEED ANOTHER BUFF :( :( :( THIEF DEAD :( :( :( > > The absolute state of this class I stg Yeah I think youre like, 7 years out of date? In reality nowadays thief is "pick 3 *offensive* traitlines and still do less than 5k damage even with your backstab, let alone any of your other abilities".