UNOwen.7132

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > @"Endorphin.9147" said: > > > > gut shadow arts to the ground, its boring AF to play. > > > > > > then dont play it, its not like other traits are unplayable, in fact if enemy team doesnt have thief I think other traits are better then SA > > > > Theyre not. DA used to be fine but its bad now, and acrobatics and critical strikes are in fact unplayable, though for different reasons. Granted, not like DA plays any different to SA. > > im speaking about good thiefs, that can survive without stealthing for 20s+ at a time Yes. For those too SA is superior to DA, and Acrobatics and Critical strikes are unplayable, and their playstyle doesnt change if they were to pick DA. Not entirely sure what point you were making here tbh.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"Endorphin.9147" said: > > gut shadow arts to the ground, its boring AF to play. > > then dont play it, its not like other traits are unplayable, in fact if enemy team doesnt have thief I think other traits are better then SA Theyre not. DA used to be fine but its bad now, and acrobatics and critical strikes are in fact unplayable, though for different reasons. Granted, not like DA plays any different to SA.

> @"comarusprimus.9461" said: > As long as all builds are as close as possible to common level, it does not matter how high or low the bar is. > Why does it matter if Anet nerfs (or buffs) ? What matters is that there are no outliers from the general standard. It is applicable both too to strong and too weak builds. That is why they nerf busted things. Because the environment is the issue, not individual builds. Imagine if every build could never die under any circumstances, and the game devolved entirely into using knockbacks to obtain points. If every class had knockbacks of equal value, there would be no outliers. It would also be the worst MMO PvP to have ever been created.

> @"Yasai.3549" said: > All Engi needs is a mainhand for core that isn't bad. > LITERALLY ALL ENGI NEEDS. > > Cmon Anet, it ain't hard. Yeah, now that rifle is kinda bad, having a way to use shield as a power build would be a godsent. Something like Mace would probably be the best option.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"TeqkOneStylez.8047" said: > > Apparently shortbow 5 needs another nerf > > ini system needs a rework but that aint happening :/ > @"UNOwen.7132" nobody argues with you since there is no point, you make statements, instantly take them as absolute and utter truth, and despite being proven wrong refuse to accept it, sooner or later @"Dantheman.3589" will realize this and stop responding, or if he has already he will get bored off it as I did and interact with people worth having conversations with, just a food for thought for you You're projecting Im afraid, mister "I fell for an obvious fabrication and tripled down on it even after being proven wrong repeatedly". Youre the one who makes statements, instantly takes them as absolute and utter truth, and despite being proven wrong refuse to accept it. Dan is similar, except he just outright lies sometimes. God knows why, given how easy it is to figure out that he is lying usually, but yknow. Something he does, I guess.

> @"Dantheman.3589" said: > This reminds me of when a silver lfg team thought a 5- X team was a try hard team. The silver rated players have more knowledge than the community I’m sure of it now. You know, your tactic of just trying to ignore every time you get called out is getting rather tiresome, as is your attempt at faux elitism. Maybe learn to just take the L?

> @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A team of 5 thieves would be a nightmare for a team of 5 guardians to face, IF the 5 thieves are co-ordinating on voice-comms. If it was just a pug group with no voice-comms then yeah, guards would win easily, but voice-comm level co-ordination is a game-changer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it wouldnt be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unless the 5 guards all sit together on 1 node, there's plenty of opportunity for thieves to out-rotate and zerg down 1 after the other. 4 thieves spiking out of stealth, stealing stability and spamming unblockable interrupts will very quickly end a guardian which is outnumbered. Once the snowball is started it'd be difficult to stop. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah actually that wouldnt happen. Here is what the guardians do. 3 mid, 2 close, one of the ones going close being a bunker. Lets say DH bunker. The Guardians take mid and close, because thieves lose those fights, then hold them ad infinitum as the thieves are powerless to stop any of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simple example: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both teams split 1-3-1 at start. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would they guardian send any far? They just go 3-2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On each node, into 1v1 or 3v3, the guardian is favoured against the thief. So guardian wins right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually even if its a 3v5 mid, guardian wins. They take mid and close, and just sit on them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The 3 thieves on mid just leave, 2 go to far, 1 to close. They'll be able to get there a good 15-20 seconds before the slow guards from mid will be able to follow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, lets say all 5 thieves go close. 2 guardians from mid move. One takes far, the other goes close. The ones on close will be able to survive of course until the third one arrives (remember, one is a bunker), and once the third one arrives, its a teamfight they win once more. The thieves lose a point, and fail to pick up anything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They pick up the kills on close and far, so now they have a 5v3 situation on the map and both side-nodes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh they wont get any kills. The situation will remain a 5v5 on paper, but a 2v5 in practice, because most of the thieves are useless. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Obviously it requires a degree of co-ordination that is not available to pugs, but it is in no way a foregone conclusion. It also kinda depends on the map, somewhere with lots of no-ports close to the node like skyhammer of colosseum would be tougher for thieves to snowball on. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh it absolutely is a foregone conclusion. The fact that thieves cant kill guardians unless they *really* outnumber them (And even then only slowly) makes it impossible for them to win. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hmm ? losing 2v5 to 2 guardians maybe you should’ve spent those months of practice to try and finally win a daily on thief instead of guardian > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3v5. 2v5 the thieves might win, but not fast enough to do so before reinforcements arrive and turn the fight around. And if you cant win a 3v5 against 5 thieves as guardians, maybe you should try learning guardian. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are u seriously gonna argue that. As Ragnar, a top 25 guard main, pointed out 5 thief’s on 1 guard is an insta kill. It doesn’t matter if it’s 2,3 or 4. You get 1 insta kill and u don’t have to 3v5, though I’ll admit in a team fight burn stacks could meme a thief and if the guards are good enough they could just rev them, but a good thief team would see 1 death or a Rez and all rotate while the guards would show up 10 secs too late. It would just take 1 fight on sides to snowball to start a massive snowball and on a map like coliseum where thief is insanely good and guard is only so-so then this would be a no brained for a team on comma to accomplish > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ill take "what is a bunker" and "what is ressing" and "what is invulnerability" each for 500. You maybe down one guy, then he gets ressed immediately and youre back to square one. And thats assuming you even down the one guy. After all, backstab thieves burst is already pretty poor, and you only get the one. The others are going to have to play different builds. With worse and more telegraphed burst. The guardian can just use his defenses and remain completely fine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would take 1 *successful* fight. Unfortunately for the thieves, they will not get a succesful fight. Here is whats going to happen. The guardians will send 3 mid, and 2 close. They will take both points. The thieves will obviously have no chance of ever taking mid. They lose the fight 5v3 100% of the time. So, lets say the thieves then go 5 close, to try and get that point. While they do win the 5v2 eventually, since the ones on close are a bunker and one at least reasonably tanky guardian ,they will do so much too slowly. The guardians at mid will dispatch 2. One goes far, and takes the now undefended thief point literally for free. The other goes close as reinforcement, turning the fight into a 3v5 that the guardians win again. The thieves lose one point for free, and gain nothing. Thieves only advantage is that they rotate faster. An advantage that is meaningless when no matter where you go on the map, you lose. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now if it was 5 thieves including repeating builds they ... still would lose obviously, but they'd have more of a chance. But non-repeating builds? Yeah no thats a loss 100% of the time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok so you think the 1 “support firebrand” will have precast signet of mercy on his 1 player that got insta downed ? It’s laughable- 5 fully stealthed thief’s will have 1 shot him/her out of stealth and guess what they will try to rez and not get it unless against bots and a support firebrand would be so squish that he will die and have no chance to get the rez, maybe you have a burn or 1 shot dh down someone but they will probably rally if they got that lucky. this miraclous 3v5 comp of mostly underperforming specs would insta die too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh I completely forgot that guardian had a res signet. Its not even neccessary. 5 fully stealthed thieves? What, are you going to assume that theyre just going to ignore that obvious smokefield, and not, yknow, place traps down to inhibit the thieves? Plus, were talking non-repeating builds. Good luck one-shotting when you only have 1 backstab build, and the remaining builds either have telegraphed and avoidable/blockable burst, or no burst at all. And why do you think the support firebrand would be on far, I'd have placed it mid. And no, the 3v5 comp of mostly good builds would completely destroy the 5 thieves of which 0 have builds that are even remotely useful for teamfighting. What are the thieves gonna do? Try and fail to burst down on target, while eating enough damage to down every single one of them? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > News flash. The only spec that can actually get to the others teams side at same time as them on almost every map is thief and that’s assuming regular movement speed + maybe swiftness. This thief team could get to the other side about a fast as most teams could get to mid. The dh could at best get to the other teams side only against regular teams, on kyhlo and with a target for teleports. They wouldn’t be able to get to the thief’s stealth area and wouldn’t know where they are on the map- maybe they are pushing far, which u said only has 2(that’s a bronze teir strat that only works against bots btw) or maybe they are mid being picky with a target. If the guard wants to rotate they wil just 1 shot him and if they just sit where they are with your unviable split than they are even more of sitting ducks. > > > > > > > > > > > > Correct, theyre faster. As I said. "Thieves only advantage is that they rotate faster. An advantage that is meaningless when no matter where you go on the map, you lose". Yes, the reinforcements from mid arrive later, but thats fine, thieves cant kill fast enough, and by the time they do arrive, its game over for the thieves. And no, it works against thieves brilliantly, since it abuses thieves *complete* lack of teamfighting and killing potential. As I said, the guardians can just sit mid and close, and they win by default. If the thieves try to push close (literally their *only* option, so its 100% predictable), the guardians will get a free point. There is *no* situation in which the thieves can win. Because 5 thieves is an unviable comp that fails against *all* half-way functional comps (decap and +1 bots are only good as a 1 of in your team, not if you have 5), whereas 5 Guardians is a functional comp, albeit a weak one. > > > > > > > > > > Good job making an argument entirely around semantics about how much better guard is than thief. Too bad I know you’ve never tried a 5 thief comp before as you said “no ones won an at as 5 thief before” or even attempted it. 2 days ago when my at asked to do 5 thief for the at, and won against somewhat competent teams, I mentioned a person or 2 said thief couldn’t win and they all laughed and said that thief is amazing in conquest so ofc thief could win. > > > > > > > > > > > > > And you havent tried playing 5 *distinct* thief builds against 5 *distinct* guardian builds with players of similar skill level either. In fact, lemme go ahead and guess that your 5 thief team had a lot of overlap, and you only won against poor teams. Correct? Yes? Well thats not surprising. Turns out this is something that you can only do by analysing each teams merits, and average power. And well, you have not made a *single* argument for why thief would totally win other than "theyre faster and they can totally oneshot a guardian and win off of that". Ignoring that the second part isnt even true. > > > > > > > > > If you have never tested it than you know zilch and in this case you are very wrong. There’s a reason high rated players have pointed this out to you because they already have played the game and well, which you made clear that you have never played and don’t know anything about. > > > > > > > > In case you havent noticed (not terribly surprising given how utterly **self-absorbed** you are), *youre literally the only person arguing that 5 thieves would win*. Multiple people have already said that thief would lose, and several have even called you out on trying to argue that thief totally would win. So Im sorry, but those made up "high rated players" dont exist. In fact, if youre willing to lie about that, I wouldn't be surprised if you didnt even try a 5 thief AT at all, and lied about that too. > > > > > > Here he goes again. I already said against decent teams ie. plat+ lfg groups and one plat team had a god of pvp + best of best title. Guess what 5 guard is most likely worse than their meta comp so why wouldn’t it be able to beat 5 guard but than again that’s not your argument your argument you are making baseless and incorrect claims about how 5 thief cannot win an at and no ones even tried to. > > > > Because against an evenly skilled team, 5 thieves would lose embarassingly 100% of the time? Its a *lot* worse than a meta team. And I said that no one tried bringing 5 thieves to an AT. That was true. Now youre claiming you totally brought 5 thieves to an AT, but as I said. If youre willing to lie about other high rated players *totally* agreeing with you, why wouldnt you be willing to lie about that too? > > Good job at cementing your place as that forum guy. Ragnar already told you you were wrong and I know for a fact he’s “much much higher rated than you. Everything else didn’t happen also I guess like probably the hundreds of ats that have been so thief comps. > Also btw for the past idk 5 months triple thief comps have been banned from in-houses for being very strong and incredibly toxic. You mean the same Ragnar that ranked thief *last* and guardian *third* for this challenge? And the one who assumed the guardians would not be on comms and make drastic misplay for that specific comment? Man youre not very good at making it seem like youre not alone, are you? And yes, it didnt happen, else you would've shown proof by now. Guess I was spot on with you lying once more. And *sure* they have, thats why MATs dont see triple thief comps ever.

> @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > A team of 5 thieves would be a nightmare for a team of 5 guardians to face, IF the 5 thieves are co-ordinating on voice-comms. If it was just a pug group with no voice-comms then yeah, guards would win easily, but voice-comm level co-ordination is a game-changer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it wouldnt be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unless the 5 guards all sit together on 1 node, there's plenty of opportunity for thieves to out-rotate and zerg down 1 after the other. 4 thieves spiking out of stealth, stealing stability and spamming unblockable interrupts will very quickly end a guardian which is outnumbered. Once the snowball is started it'd be difficult to stop. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah actually that wouldnt happen. Here is what the guardians do. 3 mid, 2 close, one of the ones going close being a bunker. Lets say DH bunker. The Guardians take mid and close, because thieves lose those fights, then hold them ad infinitum as the thieves are powerless to stop any of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simple example: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both teams split 1-3-1 at start. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would they guardian send any far? They just go 3-2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On each node, into 1v1 or 3v3, the guardian is favoured against the thief. So guardian wins right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually even if its a 3v5 mid, guardian wins. They take mid and close, and just sit on them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The 3 thieves on mid just leave, 2 go to far, 1 to close. They'll be able to get there a good 15-20 seconds before the slow guards from mid will be able to follow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, lets say all 5 thieves go close. 2 guardians from mid move. One takes far, the other goes close. The ones on close will be able to survive of course until the third one arrives (remember, one is a bunker), and once the third one arrives, its a teamfight they win once more. The thieves lose a point, and fail to pick up anything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They pick up the kills on close and far, so now they have a 5v3 situation on the map and both side-nodes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh they wont get any kills. The situation will remain a 5v5 on paper, but a 2v5 in practice, because most of the thieves are useless. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Obviously it requires a degree of co-ordination that is not available to pugs, but it is in no way a foregone conclusion. It also kinda depends on the map, somewhere with lots of no-ports close to the node like skyhammer of colosseum would be tougher for thieves to snowball on. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh it absolutely is a foregone conclusion. The fact that thieves cant kill guardians unless they *really* outnumber them (And even then only slowly) makes it impossible for them to win. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hmm ? losing 2v5 to 2 guardians maybe you should’ve spent those months of practice to try and finally win a daily on thief instead of guardian > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3v5. 2v5 the thieves might win, but not fast enough to do so before reinforcements arrive and turn the fight around. And if you cant win a 3v5 against 5 thieves as guardians, maybe you should try learning guardian. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are u seriously gonna argue that. As Ragnar, a top 25 guard main, pointed out 5 thief’s on 1 guard is an insta kill. It doesn’t matter if it’s 2,3 or 4. You get 1 insta kill and u don’t have to 3v5, though I’ll admit in a team fight burn stacks could meme a thief and if the guards are good enough they could just rev them, but a good thief team would see 1 death or a Rez and all rotate while the guards would show up 10 secs too late. It would just take 1 fight on sides to snowball to start a massive snowball and on a map like coliseum where thief is insanely good and guard is only so-so then this would be a no brained for a team on comma to accomplish > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ill take "what is a bunker" and "what is ressing" and "what is invulnerability" each for 500. You maybe down one guy, then he gets ressed immediately and youre back to square one. And thats assuming you even down the one guy. After all, backstab thieves burst is already pretty poor, and you only get the one. The others are going to have to play different builds. With worse and more telegraphed burst. The guardian can just use his defenses and remain completely fine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would take 1 *successful* fight. Unfortunately for the thieves, they will not get a succesful fight. Here is whats going to happen. The guardians will send 3 mid, and 2 close. They will take both points. The thieves will obviously have no chance of ever taking mid. They lose the fight 5v3 100% of the time. So, lets say the thieves then go 5 close, to try and get that point. While they do win the 5v2 eventually, since the ones on close are a bunker and one at least reasonably tanky guardian ,they will do so much too slowly. The guardians at mid will dispatch 2. One goes far, and takes the now undefended thief point literally for free. The other goes close as reinforcement, turning the fight into a 3v5 that the guardians win again. The thieves lose one point for free, and gain nothing. Thieves only advantage is that they rotate faster. An advantage that is meaningless when no matter where you go on the map, you lose. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now if it was 5 thieves including repeating builds they ... still would lose obviously, but they'd have more of a chance. But non-repeating builds? Yeah no thats a loss 100% of the time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok so you think the 1 “support firebrand” will have precast signet of mercy on his 1 player that got insta downed ? It’s laughable- 5 fully stealthed thief’s will have 1 shot him/her out of stealth and guess what they will try to rez and not get it unless against bots and a support firebrand would be so squish that he will die and have no chance to get the rez, maybe you have a burn or 1 shot dh down someone but they will probably rally if they got that lucky. this miraclous 3v5 comp of mostly underperforming specs would insta die too. > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh I completely forgot that guardian had a res signet. Its not even neccessary. 5 fully stealthed thieves? What, are you going to assume that theyre just going to ignore that obvious smokefield, and not, yknow, place traps down to inhibit the thieves? Plus, were talking non-repeating builds. Good luck one-shotting when you only have 1 backstab build, and the remaining builds either have telegraphed and avoidable/blockable burst, or no burst at all. And why do you think the support firebrand would be on far, I'd have placed it mid. And no, the 3v5 comp of mostly good builds would completely destroy the 5 thieves of which 0 have builds that are even remotely useful for teamfighting. What are the thieves gonna do? Try and fail to burst down on target, while eating enough damage to down every single one of them? > > > > > > > > > > News flash. The only spec that can actually get to the others teams side at same time as them on almost every map is thief and that’s assuming regular movement speed + maybe swiftness. This thief team could get to the other side about a fast as most teams could get to mid. The dh could at best get to the other teams side only against regular teams, on kyhlo and with a target for teleports. They wouldn’t be able to get to the thief’s stealth area and wouldn’t know where they are on the map- maybe they are pushing far, which u said only has 2(that’s a bronze teir strat that only works against bots btw) or maybe they are mid being picky with a target. If the guard wants to rotate they wil just 1 shot him and if they just sit where they are with your unviable split than they are even more of sitting ducks. > > > > > > > > Correct, theyre faster. As I said. "Thieves only advantage is that they rotate faster. An advantage that is meaningless when no matter where you go on the map, you lose". Yes, the reinforcements from mid arrive later, but thats fine, thieves cant kill fast enough, and by the time they do arrive, its game over for the thieves. And no, it works against thieves brilliantly, since it abuses thieves *complete* lack of teamfighting and killing potential. As I said, the guardians can just sit mid and close, and they win by default. If the thieves try to push close (literally their *only* option, so its 100% predictable), the guardians will get a free point. There is *no* situation in which the thieves can win. Because 5 thieves is an unviable comp that fails against *all* half-way functional comps (decap and +1 bots are only good as a 1 of in your team, not if you have 5), whereas 5 Guardians is a functional comp, albeit a weak one. > > > > > > Good job making an argument entirely around semantics about how much better guard is than thief. Too bad I know you’ve never tried a 5 thief comp before as you said “no ones won an at as 5 thief before” or even attempted it. 2 days ago when my at asked to do 5 thief for the at, and won against somewhat competent teams, I mentioned a person or 2 said thief couldn’t win and they all laughed and said that thief is amazing in conquest so ofc thief could win. > > > > > > > And you havent tried playing 5 *distinct* thief builds against 5 *distinct* guardian builds with players of similar skill level either. In fact, lemme go ahead and guess that your 5 thief team had a lot of overlap, and you only won against poor teams. Correct? Yes? Well thats not surprising. Turns out this is something that you can only do by analysing each teams merits, and average power. And well, you have not made a *single* argument for why thief would totally win other than "theyre faster and they can totally oneshot a guardian and win off of that". Ignoring that the second part isnt even true. > > > > > If you have never tested it than you know zilch and in this case you are very wrong. There’s a reason high rated players have pointed this out to you because they already have played the game and well, which you made clear that you have never played and don’t know anything about. > > > > In case you havent noticed (not terribly surprising given how utterly **self-absorbed** you are), *youre literally the only person arguing that 5 thieves would win*. Multiple people have already said that thief would lose, and several have even called you out on trying to argue that thief totally would win. So Im sorry, but those made up "high rated players" dont exist. In fact, if youre willing to lie about that, I wouldn't be surprised if you didnt even try a 5 thief AT at all, and lied about that too. > > Here he goes again. I already said against decent teams ie. plat+ lfg groups and one plat team had a god of pvp + best of best title. Guess what 5 guard is most likely worse than their meta comp so why wouldn’t it be able to beat 5 guard but than again that’s not your argument your argument you are making baseless and incorrect claims about how 5 thief cannot win an at and no ones even tried to. Because against an evenly skilled team, 5 thieves would lose embarassingly 100% of the time? Its a *lot* worse than a meta team. And I said that no one tried bringing 5 thieves to an AT. That was true. Now youre claiming you totally brought 5 thieves to an AT, but as I said. If youre willing to lie about other high rated players *totally* agreeing with you, why wouldnt you be willing to lie about that too?

> @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > > > > > > A team of 5 thieves would be a nightmare for a team of 5 guardians to face, IF the 5 thieves are co-ordinating on voice-comms. If it was just a pug group with no voice-comms then yeah, guards would win easily, but voice-comm level co-ordination is a game-changer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it wouldnt be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unless the 5 guards all sit together on 1 node, there's plenty of opportunity for thieves to out-rotate and zerg down 1 after the other. 4 thieves spiking out of stealth, stealing stability and spamming unblockable interrupts will very quickly end a guardian which is outnumbered. Once the snowball is started it'd be difficult to stop. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah actually that wouldnt happen. Here is what the guardians do. 3 mid, 2 close, one of the ones going close being a bunker. Lets say DH bunker. The Guardians take mid and close, because thieves lose those fights, then hold them ad infinitum as the thieves are powerless to stop any of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simple example: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both teams split 1-3-1 at start. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would they guardian send any far? They just go 3-2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On each node, into 1v1 or 3v3, the guardian is favoured against the thief. So guardian wins right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually even if its a 3v5 mid, guardian wins. They take mid and close, and just sit on them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The 3 thieves on mid just leave, 2 go to far, 1 to close. They'll be able to get there a good 15-20 seconds before the slow guards from mid will be able to follow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, lets say all 5 thieves go close. 2 guardians from mid move. One takes far, the other goes close. The ones on close will be able to survive of course until the third one arrives (remember, one is a bunker), and once the third one arrives, its a teamfight they win once more. The thieves lose a point, and fail to pick up anything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They pick up the kills on close and far, so now they have a 5v3 situation on the map and both side-nodes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh they wont get any kills. The situation will remain a 5v5 on paper, but a 2v5 in practice, because most of the thieves are useless. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Obviously it requires a degree of co-ordination that is not available to pugs, but it is in no way a foregone conclusion. It also kinda depends on the map, somewhere with lots of no-ports close to the node like skyhammer of colosseum would be tougher for thieves to snowball on. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh it absolutely is a foregone conclusion. The fact that thieves cant kill guardians unless they *really* outnumber them (And even then only slowly) makes it impossible for them to win. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hmm ? losing 2v5 to 2 guardians maybe you should’ve spent those months of practice to try and finally win a daily on thief instead of guardian > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3v5. 2v5 the thieves might win, but not fast enough to do so before reinforcements arrive and turn the fight around. And if you cant win a 3v5 against 5 thieves as guardians, maybe you should try learning guardian. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are u seriously gonna argue that. As Ragnar, a top 25 guard main, pointed out 5 thief’s on 1 guard is an insta kill. It doesn’t matter if it’s 2,3 or 4. You get 1 insta kill and u don’t have to 3v5, though I’ll admit in a team fight burn stacks could meme a thief and if the guards are good enough they could just rev them, but a good thief team would see 1 death or a Rez and all rotate while the guards would show up 10 secs too late. It would just take 1 fight on sides to snowball to start a massive snowball and on a map like coliseum where thief is insanely good and guard is only so-so then this would be a no brained for a team on comma to accomplish > > > > > > > > > > > > Ill take "what is a bunker" and "what is ressing" and "what is invulnerability" each for 500. You maybe down one guy, then he gets ressed immediately and youre back to square one. And thats assuming you even down the one guy. After all, backstab thieves burst is already pretty poor, and you only get the one. The others are going to have to play different builds. With worse and more telegraphed burst. The guardian can just use his defenses and remain completely fine. > > > > > > > > > > > > It would take 1 *successful* fight. Unfortunately for the thieves, they will not get a succesful fight. Here is whats going to happen. The guardians will send 3 mid, and 2 close. They will take both points. The thieves will obviously have no chance of ever taking mid. They lose the fight 5v3 100% of the time. So, lets say the thieves then go 5 close, to try and get that point. While they do win the 5v2 eventually, since the ones on close are a bunker and one at least reasonably tanky guardian ,they will do so much too slowly. The guardians at mid will dispatch 2. One goes far, and takes the now undefended thief point literally for free. The other goes close as reinforcement, turning the fight into a 3v5 that the guardians win again. The thieves lose one point for free, and gain nothing. Thieves only advantage is that they rotate faster. An advantage that is meaningless when no matter where you go on the map, you lose. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now if it was 5 thieves including repeating builds they ... still would lose obviously, but they'd have more of a chance. But non-repeating builds? Yeah no thats a loss 100% of the time. > > > > > > > > > > Ok so you think the 1 “support firebrand” will have precast signet of mercy on his 1 player that got insta downed ? It’s laughable- 5 fully stealthed thief’s will have 1 shot him/her out of stealth and guess what they will try to rez and not get it unless against bots and a support firebrand would be so squish that he will die and have no chance to get the rez, maybe you have a burn or 1 shot dh down someone but they will probably rally if they got that lucky. this miraclous 3v5 comp of mostly underperforming specs would insta die too. > > > > > > > > Oh I completely forgot that guardian had a res signet. Its not even neccessary. 5 fully stealthed thieves? What, are you going to assume that theyre just going to ignore that obvious smokefield, and not, yknow, place traps down to inhibit the thieves? Plus, were talking non-repeating builds. Good luck one-shotting when you only have 1 backstab build, and the remaining builds either have telegraphed and avoidable/blockable burst, or no burst at all. And why do you think the support firebrand would be on far, I'd have placed it mid. And no, the 3v5 comp of mostly good builds would completely destroy the 5 thieves of which 0 have builds that are even remotely useful for teamfighting. What are the thieves gonna do? Try and fail to burst down on target, while eating enough damage to down every single one of them? > > > > > > News flash. The only spec that can actually get to the others teams side at same time as them on almost every map is thief and that’s assuming regular movement speed + maybe swiftness. This thief team could get to the other side about a fast as most teams could get to mid. The dh could at best get to the other teams side only against regular teams, on kyhlo and with a target for teleports. They wouldn’t be able to get to the thief’s stealth area and wouldn’t know where they are on the map- maybe they are pushing far, which u said only has 2(that’s a bronze teir strat that only works against bots btw) or maybe they are mid being picky with a target. If the guard wants to rotate they wil just 1 shot him and if they just sit where they are with your unviable split than they are even more of sitting ducks. > > > > Correct, theyre faster. As I said. "Thieves only advantage is that they rotate faster. An advantage that is meaningless when no matter where you go on the map, you lose". Yes, the reinforcements from mid arrive later, but thats fine, thieves cant kill fast enough, and by the time they do arrive, its game over for the thieves. And no, it works against thieves brilliantly, since it abuses thieves *complete* lack of teamfighting and killing potential. As I said, the guardians can just sit mid and close, and they win by default. If the thieves try to push close (literally their *only* option, so its 100% predictable), the guardians will get a free point. There is *no* situation in which the thieves can win. Because 5 thieves is an unviable comp that fails against *all* half-way functional comps (decap and +1 bots are only good as a 1 of in your team, not if you have 5), whereas 5 Guardians is a functional comp, albeit a weak one. > > Good job making an argument entirely around semantics about how much better guard is than thief. Too bad I know you’ve never tried a 5 thief comp before as you said “no ones won an at as 5 thief before” or even attempted it. 2 days ago when my at asked to do 5 thief for the at, and won against somewhat competent teams, I mentioned a person or 2 said thief couldn’t win and they all laughed and said that thief is amazing in conquest so ofc thief could win. > And you havent tried playing 5 *distinct* thief builds against 5 *distinct* guardian builds with players of similar skill level either. In fact, lemme go ahead and guess that your 5 thief team had a lot of overlap, and you only won against poor teams. Correct? Yes? Well thats not surprising. Turns out this is something that you can only do by analysing each teams merits, and average power. And well, you have not made a *single* argument for why thief would totally win other than "theyre faster and they can totally oneshot a guardian and win off of that". Ignoring that the second part isnt even true. > If you have never tested it than you know zilch and in this case you are very wrong. There’s a reason high rated players have pointed this out to you because they already have played the game and well, which you made clear that you have never played and don’t know anything about. In case you havent noticed (not terribly surprising given how utterly **self-absorbed** you are), *youre literally the only person arguing that 5 thieves would win*. Multiple people have already said that thief would lose, and several have even called you out on trying to argue that thief totally would win. So Im sorry, but those made up "high rated players" dont exist. In fact, if youre willing to lie about that, I wouldn't be surprised if you didnt even try a 5 thief AT at all, and lied about that too.

> @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > > > > A team of 5 thieves would be a nightmare for a team of 5 guardians to face, IF the 5 thieves are co-ordinating on voice-comms. If it was just a pug group with no voice-comms then yeah, guards would win easily, but voice-comm level co-ordination is a game-changer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it wouldnt be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unless the 5 guards all sit together on 1 node, there's plenty of opportunity for thieves to out-rotate and zerg down 1 after the other. 4 thieves spiking out of stealth, stealing stability and spamming unblockable interrupts will very quickly end a guardian which is outnumbered. Once the snowball is started it'd be difficult to stop. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah actually that wouldnt happen. Here is what the guardians do. 3 mid, 2 close, one of the ones going close being a bunker. Lets say DH bunker. The Guardians take mid and close, because thieves lose those fights, then hold them ad infinitum as the thieves are powerless to stop any of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simple example: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both teams split 1-3-1 at start. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would they guardian send any far? They just go 3-2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On each node, into 1v1 or 3v3, the guardian is favoured against the thief. So guardian wins right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually even if its a 3v5 mid, guardian wins. They take mid and close, and just sit on them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The 3 thieves on mid just leave, 2 go to far, 1 to close. They'll be able to get there a good 15-20 seconds before the slow guards from mid will be able to follow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, lets say all 5 thieves go close. 2 guardians from mid move. One takes far, the other goes close. The ones on close will be able to survive of course until the third one arrives (remember, one is a bunker), and once the third one arrives, its a teamfight they win once more. The thieves lose a point, and fail to pick up anything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They pick up the kills on close and far, so now they have a 5v3 situation on the map and both side-nodes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh they wont get any kills. The situation will remain a 5v5 on paper, but a 2v5 in practice, because most of the thieves are useless. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Obviously it requires a degree of co-ordination that is not available to pugs, but it is in no way a foregone conclusion. It also kinda depends on the map, somewhere with lots of no-ports close to the node like skyhammer of colosseum would be tougher for thieves to snowball on. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh it absolutely is a foregone conclusion. The fact that thieves cant kill guardians unless they *really* outnumber them (And even then only slowly) makes it impossible for them to win. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hmm ? losing 2v5 to 2 guardians maybe you should’ve spent those months of practice to try and finally win a daily on thief instead of guardian > > > > > > > > > > > > 3v5. 2v5 the thieves might win, but not fast enough to do so before reinforcements arrive and turn the fight around. And if you cant win a 3v5 against 5 thieves as guardians, maybe you should try learning guardian. > > > > > > > > > > Are u seriously gonna argue that. As Ragnar, a top 25 guard main, pointed out 5 thief’s on 1 guard is an insta kill. It doesn’t matter if it’s 2,3 or 4. You get 1 insta kill and u don’t have to 3v5, though I’ll admit in a team fight burn stacks could meme a thief and if the guards are good enough they could just rev them, but a good thief team would see 1 death or a Rez and all rotate while the guards would show up 10 secs too late. It would just take 1 fight on sides to snowball to start a massive snowball and on a map like coliseum where thief is insanely good and guard is only so-so then this would be a no brained for a team on comma to accomplish > > > > > > > > Ill take "what is a bunker" and "what is ressing" and "what is invulnerability" each for 500. You maybe down one guy, then he gets ressed immediately and youre back to square one. And thats assuming you even down the one guy. After all, backstab thieves burst is already pretty poor, and you only get the one. The others are going to have to play different builds. With worse and more telegraphed burst. The guardian can just use his defenses and remain completely fine. > > > > > > > > It would take 1 *successful* fight. Unfortunately for the thieves, they will not get a succesful fight. Here is whats going to happen. The guardians will send 3 mid, and 2 close. They will take both points. The thieves will obviously have no chance of ever taking mid. They lose the fight 5v3 100% of the time. So, lets say the thieves then go 5 close, to try and get that point. While they do win the 5v2 eventually, since the ones on close are a bunker and one at least reasonably tanky guardian ,they will do so much too slowly. The guardians at mid will dispatch 2. One goes far, and takes the now undefended thief point literally for free. The other goes close as reinforcement, turning the fight into a 3v5 that the guardians win again. The thieves lose one point for free, and gain nothing. Thieves only advantage is that they rotate faster. An advantage that is meaningless when no matter where you go on the map, you lose. > > > > > > > > Now if it was 5 thieves including repeating builds they ... still would lose obviously, but they'd have more of a chance. But non-repeating builds? Yeah no thats a loss 100% of the time. > > > > > > Ok so you think the 1 “support firebrand” will have precast signet of mercy on his 1 player that got insta downed ? It’s laughable- 5 fully stealthed thief’s will have 1 shot him/her out of stealth and guess what they will try to rez and not get it unless against bots and a support firebrand would be so squish that he will die and have no chance to get the rez, maybe you have a burn or 1 shot dh down someone but they will probably rally if they got that lucky. this miraclous 3v5 comp of mostly underperforming specs would insta die too. > > > > Oh I completely forgot that guardian had a res signet. Its not even neccessary. 5 fully stealthed thieves? What, are you going to assume that theyre just going to ignore that obvious smokefield, and not, yknow, place traps down to inhibit the thieves? Plus, were talking non-repeating builds. Good luck one-shotting when you only have 1 backstab build, and the remaining builds either have telegraphed and avoidable/blockable burst, or no burst at all. And why do you think the support firebrand would be on far, I'd have placed it mid. And no, the 3v5 comp of mostly good builds would completely destroy the 5 thieves of which 0 have builds that are even remotely useful for teamfighting. What are the thieves gonna do? Try and fail to burst down on target, while eating enough damage to down every single one of them? > > News flash. The only spec that can actually get to the others teams side at same time as them on almost every map is thief and that’s assuming regular movement speed + maybe swiftness. This thief team could get to the other side about a fast as most teams could get to mid. The dh could at best get to the other teams side only against regular teams, on kyhlo and with a target for teleports. They wouldn’t be able to get to the thief’s stealth area and wouldn’t know where they are on the map- maybe they are pushing far, which u said only has 2(that’s a bronze teir strat that only works against bots btw) or maybe they are mid being picky with a target. If the guard wants to rotate they wil just 1 shot him and if they just sit where they are with your unviable split than they are even more of sitting ducks. Correct, theyre faster. As I said. "Thieves only advantage is that they rotate faster. An advantage that is meaningless when no matter where you go on the map, you lose". Yes, the reinforcements from mid arrive later, but thats fine, thieves cant kill fast enough, and by the time they do arrive, its game over for the thieves. And no, it works against thieves brilliantly, since it abuses thieves *complete* lack of teamfighting and killing potential. As I said, the guardians can just sit mid and close, and they win by default. If the thieves try to push close (literally their *only* option, so its 100% predictable), the guardians will get a free point. There is *no* situation in which the thieves can win. Because 5 thieves is an unviable comp that fails against *all* half-way functional comps (decap and +1 bots are only good as a 1 of in your team, not if you have 5), whereas 5 Guardians is a functional comp, albeit a weak one.

> @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > > A team of 5 thieves would be a nightmare for a team of 5 guardians to face, IF the 5 thieves are co-ordinating on voice-comms. If it was just a pug group with no voice-comms then yeah, guards would win easily, but voice-comm level co-ordination is a game-changer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it wouldnt be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unless the 5 guards all sit together on 1 node, there's plenty of opportunity for thieves to out-rotate and zerg down 1 after the other. 4 thieves spiking out of stealth, stealing stability and spamming unblockable interrupts will very quickly end a guardian which is outnumbered. Once the snowball is started it'd be difficult to stop. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah actually that wouldnt happen. Here is what the guardians do. 3 mid, 2 close, one of the ones going close being a bunker. Lets say DH bunker. The Guardians take mid and close, because thieves lose those fights, then hold them ad infinitum as the thieves are powerless to stop any of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simple example: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both teams split 1-3-1 at start. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would they guardian send any far? They just go 3-2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > On each node, into 1v1 or 3v3, the guardian is favoured against the thief. So guardian wins right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually even if its a 3v5 mid, guardian wins. They take mid and close, and just sit on them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > But. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The 3 thieves on mid just leave, 2 go to far, 1 to close. They'll be able to get there a good 15-20 seconds before the slow guards from mid will be able to follow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, lets say all 5 thieves go close. 2 guardians from mid move. One takes far, the other goes close. The ones on close will be able to survive of course until the third one arrives (remember, one is a bunker), and once the third one arrives, its a teamfight they win once more. The thieves lose a point, and fail to pick up anything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > They pick up the kills on close and far, so now they have a 5v3 situation on the map and both side-nodes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh they wont get any kills. The situation will remain a 5v5 on paper, but a 2v5 in practice, because most of the thieves are useless. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Obviously it requires a degree of co-ordination that is not available to pugs, but it is in no way a foregone conclusion. It also kinda depends on the map, somewhere with lots of no-ports close to the node like skyhammer of colosseum would be tougher for thieves to snowball on. > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh it absolutely is a foregone conclusion. The fact that thieves cant kill guardians unless they *really* outnumber them (And even then only slowly) makes it impossible for them to win. > > > > > > > > > > Hmm ? losing 2v5 to 2 guardians maybe you should’ve spent those months of practice to try and finally win a daily on thief instead of guardian > > > > > > > > 3v5. 2v5 the thieves might win, but not fast enough to do so before reinforcements arrive and turn the fight around. And if you cant win a 3v5 against 5 thieves as guardians, maybe you should try learning guardian. > > > > > > Are u seriously gonna argue that. As Ragnar, a top 25 guard main, pointed out 5 thief’s on 1 guard is an insta kill. It doesn’t matter if it’s 2,3 or 4. You get 1 insta kill and u don’t have to 3v5, though I’ll admit in a team fight burn stacks could meme a thief and if the guards are good enough they could just rev them, but a good thief team would see 1 death or a Rez and all rotate while the guards would show up 10 secs too late. It would just take 1 fight on sides to snowball to start a massive snowball and on a map like coliseum where thief is insanely good and guard is only so-so then this would be a no brained for a team on comma to accomplish > > > > Ill take "what is a bunker" and "what is ressing" and "what is invulnerability" each for 500. You maybe down one guy, then he gets ressed immediately and youre back to square one. And thats assuming you even down the one guy. After all, backstab thieves burst is already pretty poor, and you only get the one. The others are going to have to play different builds. With worse and more telegraphed burst. The guardian can just use his defenses and remain completely fine. > > > > It would take 1 *successful* fight. Unfortunately for the thieves, they will not get a succesful fight. Here is whats going to happen. The guardians will send 3 mid, and 2 close. They will take both points. The thieves will obviously have no chance of ever taking mid. They lose the fight 5v3 100% of the time. So, lets say the thieves then go 5 close, to try and get that point. While they do win the 5v2 eventually, since the ones on close are a bunker and one at least reasonably tanky guardian ,they will do so much too slowly. The guardians at mid will dispatch 2. One goes far, and takes the now undefended thief point literally for free. The other goes close as reinforcement, turning the fight into a 3v5 that the guardians win again. The thieves lose one point for free, and gain nothing. Thieves only advantage is that they rotate faster. An advantage that is meaningless when no matter where you go on the map, you lose. > > > > Now if it was 5 thieves including repeating builds they ... still would lose obviously, but they'd have more of a chance. But non-repeating builds? Yeah no thats a loss 100% of the time. > > Ok so you think the 1 “support firebrand” will have precast signet of mercy on his 1 player that got insta downed ? It’s laughable- 5 fully stealthed thief’s will have 1 shot him/her out of stealth and guess what they will try to rez and not get it unless against bots and a support firebrand would be so squish that he will die and have no chance to get the rez, maybe you have a burn or 1 shot dh down someone but they will probably rally if they got that lucky. this miraclous 3v5 comp of mostly underperforming specs would insta die too. Oh I completely forgot that guardian had a res signet. Its not even neccessary. 5 fully stealthed thieves? What, are you going to assume that theyre just going to ignore that obvious smokefield, and not, yknow, place traps down to inhibit the thieves? Plus, were talking non-repeating builds. Good luck one-shotting when you only have 1 backstab build, and the remaining builds either have telegraphed and avoidable/blockable burst, or no burst at all. And why do you think the support firebrand would be on far, I'd have placed it mid. And no, the 3v5 comp of mostly good builds would completely destroy the 5 thieves of which 0 have builds that are even remotely useful for teamfighting. What are the thieves gonna do? Try and fail to burst down on target, while eating enough damage to down every single one of them?

> @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > A team of 5 thieves would be a nightmare for a team of 5 guardians to face, IF the 5 thieves are co-ordinating on voice-comms. If it was just a pug group with no voice-comms then yeah, guards would win easily, but voice-comm level co-ordination is a game-changer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it wouldnt be. > > > > > > > > > Unless the 5 guards all sit together on 1 node, there's plenty of opportunity for thieves to out-rotate and zerg down 1 after the other. 4 thieves spiking out of stealth, stealing stability and spamming unblockable interrupts will very quickly end a guardian which is outnumbered. Once the snowball is started it'd be difficult to stop. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah actually that wouldnt happen. Here is what the guardians do. 3 mid, 2 close, one of the ones going close being a bunker. Lets say DH bunker. The Guardians take mid and close, because thieves lose those fights, then hold them ad infinitum as the thieves are powerless to stop any of it. > > > > > > > > > Simple example: > > > > > > > > > > Both teams split 1-3-1 at start. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would they guardian send any far? They just go 3-2. > > > > > > > > > On each node, into 1v1 or 3v3, the guardian is favoured against the thief. So guardian wins right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually even if its a 3v5 mid, guardian wins. They take mid and close, and just sit on them. > > > > > > > > > But. > > > > > > > > > > The 3 thieves on mid just leave, 2 go to far, 1 to close. They'll be able to get there a good 15-20 seconds before the slow guards from mid will be able to follow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, lets say all 5 thieves go close. 2 guardians from mid move. One takes far, the other goes close. The ones on close will be able to survive of course until the third one arrives (remember, one is a bunker), and once the third one arrives, its a teamfight they win once more. The thieves lose a point, and fail to pick up anything. > > > > > > > > > They pick up the kills on close and far, so now they have a 5v3 situation on the map and both side-nodes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh they wont get any kills. The situation will remain a 5v5 on paper, but a 2v5 in practice, because most of the thieves are useless. > > > > > > > > > Obviously it requires a degree of co-ordination that is not available to pugs, but it is in no way a foregone conclusion. It also kinda depends on the map, somewhere with lots of no-ports close to the node like skyhammer of colosseum would be tougher for thieves to snowball on. > > > > > > > > Oh it absolutely is a foregone conclusion. The fact that thieves cant kill guardians unless they *really* outnumber them (And even then only slowly) makes it impossible for them to win. > > > > > > Hmm ? losing 2v5 to 2 guardians maybe you should’ve spent those months of practice to try and finally win a daily on thief instead of guardian > > > > 3v5. 2v5 the thieves might win, but not fast enough to do so before reinforcements arrive and turn the fight around. And if you cant win a 3v5 against 5 thieves as guardians, maybe you should try learning guardian. > > Are u seriously gonna argue that. As Ragnar, a top 25 guard main, pointed out 5 thief’s on 1 guard is an insta kill. It doesn’t matter if it’s 2,3 or 4. You get 1 insta kill and u don’t have to 3v5, though I’ll admit in a team fight burn stacks could meme a thief and if the guards are good enough they could just rev them, but a good thief team would see 1 death or a Rez and all rotate while the guards would show up 10 secs too late. It would just take 1 fight on sides to snowball to start a massive snowball and on a map like coliseum where thief is insanely good and guard is only so-so then this would be a no brained for a team on comma to accomplish Ill take "what is a bunker" and "what is ressing" and "what is invulnerability" each for 500. You maybe down one guy, then he gets ressed immediately and youre back to square one. And thats assuming you even down the one guy. After all, backstab thieves burst is already pretty poor, and you only get the one. The others are going to have to play different builds. With worse and more telegraphed burst. The guardian can just use his defenses and remain completely fine. It would take 1 *successful* fight. Unfortunately for the thieves, they will not get a succesful fight. Here is whats going to happen. The guardians will send 3 mid, and 2 close. They will take both points. The thieves will obviously have no chance of ever taking mid. They lose the fight 5v3 100% of the time. So, lets say the thieves then go 5 close, to try and get that point. While they do win the 5v2 eventually, since the ones on close are a bunker and one at least reasonably tanky guardian ,they will do so much too slowly. The guardians at mid will dispatch 2. One goes far, and takes the now undefended thief point literally for free. The other goes close as reinforcement, turning the fight into a 3v5 that the guardians win again. The thieves lose one point for free, and gain nothing. Thieves only advantage is that they rotate faster. An advantage that is meaningless when no matter where you go on the map, you lose. Now if it was 5 thieves including repeating builds they ... still would lose obviously, but they'd have more of a chance. But non-repeating builds? Yeah no thats a loss 100% of the time.

> @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > A team of 5 thieves would be a nightmare for a team of 5 guardians to face, IF the 5 thieves are co-ordinating on voice-comms. If it was just a pug group with no voice-comms then yeah, guards would win easily, but voice-comm level co-ordination is a game-changer. > > > > > > > No it wouldnt be. > > > > > Unless the 5 guards all sit together on 1 node, there's plenty of opportunity for thieves to out-rotate and zerg down 1 after the other. 4 thieves spiking out of stealth, stealing stability and spamming unblockable interrupts will very quickly end a guardian which is outnumbered. Once the snowball is started it'd be difficult to stop. > > > > > > > Yeah actually that wouldnt happen. Here is what the guardians do. 3 mid, 2 close, one of the ones going close being a bunker. Lets say DH bunker. The Guardians take mid and close, because thieves lose those fights, then hold them ad infinitum as the thieves are powerless to stop any of it. > > > > > Simple example: > > > > > > Both teams split 1-3-1 at start. > > > > > > > Why would they guardian send any far? They just go 3-2. > > > > > On each node, into 1v1 or 3v3, the guardian is favoured against the thief. So guardian wins right? > > > > > > > Actually even if its a 3v5 mid, guardian wins. They take mid and close, and just sit on them. > > > > > But. > > > > > > The 3 thieves on mid just leave, 2 go to far, 1 to close. They'll be able to get there a good 15-20 seconds before the slow guards from mid will be able to follow. > > > > > > > Ok, lets say all 5 thieves go close. 2 guardians from mid move. One takes far, the other goes close. The ones on close will be able to survive of course until the third one arrives (remember, one is a bunker), and once the third one arrives, its a teamfight they win once more. The thieves lose a point, and fail to pick up anything. > > > > > They pick up the kills on close and far, so now they have a 5v3 situation on the map and both side-nodes. > > > > > > > Oh they wont get any kills. The situation will remain a 5v5 on paper, but a 2v5 in practice, because most of the thieves are useless. > > > > > Obviously it requires a degree of co-ordination that is not available to pugs, but it is in no way a foregone conclusion. It also kinda depends on the map, somewhere with lots of no-ports close to the node like skyhammer of colosseum would be tougher for thieves to snowball on. > > > > Oh it absolutely is a foregone conclusion. The fact that thieves cant kill guardians unless they *really* outnumber them (And even then only slowly) makes it impossible for them to win. > > Hmm ? losing 2v5 to 2 guardians maybe you should’ve spent those months of practice to try and finally win a daily on thief instead of guardian 3v5. 2v5 the thieves might win, but not fast enough to do so before reinforcements arrive and turn the fight around. And if you cant win a 3v5 against 5 thieves as guardians, maybe you should try learning guardian.

> @"Ragnar.4257" said: > A team of 5 thieves would be a nightmare for a team of 5 guardians to face, IF the 5 thieves are co-ordinating on voice-comms. If it was just a pug group with no voice-comms then yeah, guards would win easily, but voice-comm level co-ordination is a game-changer. > No it wouldnt be. > Unless the 5 guards all sit together on 1 node, there's plenty of opportunity for thieves to out-rotate and zerg down 1 after the other. 4 thieves spiking out of stealth, stealing stability and spamming unblockable interrupts will very quickly end a guardian which is outnumbered. Once the snowball is started it'd be difficult to stop. > Yeah actually that wouldnt happen. Here is what the guardians do. 3 mid, 2 close, one of the ones going close being a bunker. Lets say DH bunker. The Guardians take mid and close, because thieves lose those fights, then hold them ad infinitum as the thieves are powerless to stop any of it. > Simple example: > > Both teams split 1-3-1 at start. > Why would they guardian send any far? They just go 3-2. > On each node, into 1v1 or 3v3, the guardian is favoured against the thief. So guardian wins right? > Actually even if its a 3v5 mid, guardian wins. They take mid and close, and just sit on them. > But. > > The 3 thieves on mid just leave, 2 go to far, 1 to close. They'll be able to get there a good 15-20 seconds before the slow guards from mid will be able to follow. > Ok, lets say all 5 thieves go close. 2 guardians from mid move. One takes far, the other goes close. The ones on close will be able to survive of course until the third one arrives (remember, one is a bunker), and once the third one arrives, its a teamfight they win once more. The thieves lose a point, and fail to pick up anything. > They pick up the kills on close and far, so now they have a 5v3 situation on the map and both side-nodes. > Oh they wont get any kills. The situation will remain a 5v5 on paper, but a 2v5 in practice, because most of the thieves are useless. > Obviously it requires a degree of co-ordination that is not available to pugs, but it is in no way a foregone conclusion. It also kinda depends on the map, somewhere with lots of no-ports close to the node like skyhammer of colosseum would be tougher for thieves to snowball on. Oh it absolutely is a foregone conclusion. The fact that thieves cant kill guardians unless they *really* outnumber them (And even then only slowly) makes it impossible for them to win.

> @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"DoomNexus.5324" said: > > > > > > > > > > I think every class with strong dps AND strong support would definitely win in a "every player has to play another build"-setup. > > > > > > > > > > Guard, Rev and Necro would be my top bets. > > > > > > > > > > Ele, Ranger, Engi and Warrior would probably be also pretty serious contenders but I doubt there are enough viable builds atm to keep a full team on-par with the ones mentioned earlier. I'm not saying they don't have strong builds but in specifically the setup OP established, I think there's just not enough viable variety with the current balance. > > > > > > > > > > Mesmer and thief would probably fail pretty bad since I don't think their support would be nowhere good enough to contend with the others and especially thief would lack pretty much everything in this kind of setup. Mesmer maaaaybe if they'd run different variations of burst builds and manage to end the fight before it even starts but I don't think so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > If u cannot win an at on 5 thief than u bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are u serious?. What great builds do thieves offer? Keep in mind, everyone has to play a different build.. > > > > > > > > > > 5 thieves against 5 guards? I doubt there would be any chance for the thieves if the guards are just camping close and mid, there's just nowhere near enough damage nor sustain to do anything. Again.. what great builds have thieves available? p/d condi? Is pretty much useless against guards, especially with a support.. d/p? Nowhere near enough damage to spike through aegis, shields, ... > > > > > > > > > > Same for Rev, Necro, probably even Ranger. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine thinking thief can do nothing about aegis and blocks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean, sure, you can use shortbow 4 to interrupt blocks, but how exactly do you intend for the thieves to kill the guardians? The guardian can literally just sit on the points and the thieves are powerless to do anything. 5 thieves in general is atrociously bad, 5 thieves and you cant share builds? Yeesh. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok get a team of 5 guards and I’ll gladly beat u with a 5 thief team. > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you wont. There is a reason people have done well with 5 guard teams in AT before (yes, they were memeing, but still), but no one has even tried to bring a 5 thief team to an AT before. Because they would get clapped and lose in round 1. If I were to put in the effort, what would happen is that your team of 5 thieves would lose embarassingly, and you will ignore it ever happened. But thats not worth the effort. > > > > > > > > > > I’m sure u can train for months in preparation for a Daily at. Omegalul your embarrassing your self on the forums. > > > > > > > > Why would I? If we did it tomorrow, the result would still be the guardian team completely clapping the thief team, because 5 guardians is a bad, but functional, team. Even with non-repeating builds. 5 Thieves is not even functional *with* repeating builds. Without repeating builds? Youre basically playing 2v5. > > > > > > Than start doing lfgs on NA(as my hours aren’t great for Eu ats) for 5 guard teams and I promise if I see that I’ll make my team go 5 thief....?.... > > > > Why? Too much effort for you to in the end just go "ok that didnt count because [insert stupid excuse here]", or just straight up ignore it and pretend it never happened. > > > > But just to make it clear to you, what team would you bring? Remember, 5 non-repeating builds. Guardian is easy. Burn Guardian, Support Firebrand, Longbow Trapper DH, Radiant Greatsword, and idk, bunker DH. Outside of the last one, these are legit powerful builds, that fulfill every role you need, and are completely functional as a teamcomp. Thief on the other hand? Well, you have D/P thief, a decap and +1 bot that cant 1v1 or teamfight. S/D thief, a decap and +1 bot that cant 1v1 or teamfight. DE, a decap and +1 bot that cant 1v1 or teamfight *and* isnt good at being a decap and +1 bot. Core condi thief a ... you get the gist. And then, what, P/P thief, which is also that? Thats 5 builds all fulfilling the same role (which you want only *1* of). Only 2 of them are arguably good. Maybe 3. And none of them can 1v1 a guardian, or even come close to hoping to win a teamfight. So, again, how does that team win? > > You honestly think comp matters when a say plat3+ team goes against an all bronze team in a simple daily at? U mentioned rev as a working comp, but I’ve literally played an at with 5 all power shiro revs, who have never even played rev before. That’s all the same role and us just plussing and guess what it was 500-0... Yeah, except the question is "what if *two evenly matched teams* use the same profession with non-repeating builds". So imagine you have a plat3+ team of thieves, and a plat3+ team of guardians. Do you think thieves have even the *slightest* chance of winning it? Because they dont. > That’s just an example of how simple it would be, now imagine all these ppl have played thief and put together a diverse comp say d/p + s/d roamers, staff aoe, p/p condi side node and p/d thief’s guild ganker/ even match fighter ez. I’ve also seen a legend teir thief bring a staff/staff side build that solidly meme former pro league players in ranked so ez. But then again who even cares if u try to make it balanced comp, no plat3+ team tries to make a balanced comp and just play a build they’ve never played before in ats and 500-0 bronze teir teams and I never mentioned making a diverse comp in the first place so it is literally irrelevant and if you wanna argue that than you are totally degenerate... No, its really not. Its just you saying "if the enemies are bad enough, even a completely non-functional team can win". Your hypothetical team loses to guardians. They cant win teamfights. They cant win sidenode skirmishes. They simply lose. The guardians hold mid and close, and just sit on them ad infinitum, winning by points, as the theives fruitlessly try and fail to kill a single one.

> @"Quadox.7834" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"DoomNexus.5324" said: > > > > > > > > > > I think every class with strong dps AND strong support would definitely win in a "every player has to play another build"-setup. > > > > > > > > > > Guard, Rev and Necro would be my top bets. > > > > > > > > > > Ele, Ranger, Engi and Warrior would probably be also pretty serious contenders but I doubt there are enough viable builds atm to keep a full team on-par with the ones mentioned earlier. I'm not saying they don't have strong builds but in specifically the setup OP established, I think there's just not enough viable variety with the current balance. > > > > > > > > > > Mesmer and thief would probably fail pretty bad since I don't think their support would be nowhere good enough to contend with the others and especially thief would lack pretty much everything in this kind of setup. Mesmer maaaaybe if they'd run different variations of burst builds and manage to end the fight before it even starts but I don't think so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > If u cannot win an at on 5 thief than u bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are u serious?. What great builds do thieves offer? Keep in mind, everyone has to play a different build.. > > > > > > > > > > 5 thieves against 5 guards? I doubt there would be any chance for the thieves if the guards are just camping close and mid, there's just nowhere near enough damage nor sustain to do anything. Again.. what great builds have thieves available? p/d condi? Is pretty much useless against guards, especially with a support.. d/p? Nowhere near enough damage to spike through aegis, shields, ... > > > > > > > > > > Same for Rev, Necro, probably even Ranger. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine thinking thief can do nothing about aegis and blocks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean, sure, you can use shortbow 4 to interrupt blocks, but how exactly do you intend for the thieves to kill the guardians? The guardian can literally just sit on the points and the thieves are powerless to do anything. 5 thieves in general is atrociously bad, 5 thieves and you cant share builds? Yeesh. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok get a team of 5 guards and I’ll gladly beat u with a 5 thief team. > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you wont. There is a reason people have done well with 5 guard teams in AT before (yes, they were memeing, but still), but no one has even tried to bring a 5 thief team to an AT before. Because they would get clapped and lose in round 1. If I were to put in the effort, what would happen is that your team of 5 thieves would lose embarassingly, and you will ignore it ever happened. But thats not worth the effort. > > > > > > > > > > I’m sure u can train for months in preparation for a Daily at. Omegalul your embarrassing your self on the forums. > > > > > > > > Why would I? If we did it tomorrow, the result would still be the guardian team completely clapping the thief team, because 5 guardians is a bad, but functional, team. Even with non-repeating builds. 5 Thieves is not even functional *with* repeating builds. Without repeating builds? Youre basically playing 2v5. > > > > > > Than start doing lfgs on NA(as my hours aren’t great for Eu ats) for 5 guard teams and I promise if I see that I’ll make my team go 5 thief....?.... > > > > Why? Too much effort for you to in the end just go "ok that didnt count because [insert stupid excuse here]", or just straight up ignore it and pretend it never happened. > > > > But just to make it clear to you, what team would you bring? Remember, 5 non-repeating builds. Guardian is easy. Burn Guardian, Support Firebrand, Longbow Trapper DH, Radiant Greatsword, and idk, bunker DH. Outside of the last one, these are legit powerful builds, that fulfill every role you need, and are completely functional as a teamcomp. Thief on the other hand? Well, you have D/P thief, a decap and +1 bot that cant 1v1 or teamfight. S/D thief, a decap and +1 bot that cant 1v1 or teamfight. DE, a decap and +1 bot that cant 1v1 or teamfight *and* isnt good at being a decap and +1 bot. Core condi thief a ... you get the gist. And then, what, P/P thief, which is also that? Thats 5 builds all fulfilling the same role (which you want only *1* of). Only 2 of them are arguably good. Maybe 3. And none of them can 1v1 a guardian, or even come close to hoping to win a teamfight. So, again, how does that team win? > > core support guard might be better than support fb right now Plausible, but I assume the conditions, as they are, would mandate at least one FB, and support FB is probably the best version of FB. Really thats the whole logic.

> @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > @"DoomNexus.5324" said: > > > > > > > > I think every class with strong dps AND strong support would definitely win in a "every player has to play another build"-setup. > > > > > > > > Guard, Rev and Necro would be my top bets. > > > > > > > > Ele, Ranger, Engi and Warrior would probably be also pretty serious contenders but I doubt there are enough viable builds atm to keep a full team on-par with the ones mentioned earlier. I'm not saying they don't have strong builds but in specifically the setup OP established, I think there's just not enough viable variety with the current balance. > > > > > > > > Mesmer and thief would probably fail pretty bad since I don't think their support would be nowhere good enough to contend with the others and especially thief would lack pretty much everything in this kind of setup. Mesmer maaaaybe if they'd run different variations of burst builds and manage to end the fight before it even starts but I don't think so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > If u cannot win an at on 5 thief than u bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are u serious?. What great builds do thieves offer? Keep in mind, everyone has to play a different build.. > > > > > > > > 5 thieves against 5 guards? I doubt there would be any chance for the thieves if the guards are just camping close and mid, there's just nowhere near enough damage nor sustain to do anything. Again.. what great builds have thieves available? p/d condi? Is pretty much useless against guards, especially with a support.. d/p? Nowhere near enough damage to spike through aegis, shields, ... > > > > > > > > Same for Rev, Necro, probably even Ranger. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine thinking thief can do nothing about aegis and blocks > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean, sure, you can use shortbow 4 to interrupt blocks, but how exactly do you intend for the thieves to kill the guardians? The guardian can literally just sit on the points and the thieves are powerless to do anything. 5 thieves in general is atrociously bad, 5 thieves and you cant share builds? Yeesh. > > > > > > > > > > Ok get a team of 5 guards and I’ll gladly beat u with a 5 thief team. > > > > > > > > No, you wont. There is a reason people have done well with 5 guard teams in AT before (yes, they were memeing, but still), but no one has even tried to bring a 5 thief team to an AT before. Because they would get clapped and lose in round 1. If I were to put in the effort, what would happen is that your team of 5 thieves would lose embarassingly, and you will ignore it ever happened. But thats not worth the effort. > > > > > > I’m sure u can train for months in preparation for a Daily at. Omegalul your embarrassing your self on the forums. > > > > Why would I? If we did it tomorrow, the result would still be the guardian team completely clapping the thief team, because 5 guardians is a bad, but functional, team. Even with non-repeating builds. 5 Thieves is not even functional *with* repeating builds. Without repeating builds? Youre basically playing 2v5. > > Than start doing lfgs on NA(as my hours aren’t great for Eu ats) for 5 guard teams and I promise if I see that I’ll make my team go 5 thief....?.... Why? Too much effort for you to in the end just go "ok that didnt count because [insert stupid excuse here]", or just straight up ignore it and pretend it never happened. But just to make it clear to you, what team would you bring? Remember, 5 non-repeating builds. Guardian is easy. Burn Guardian, Support Firebrand, Longbow Trapper DH, Radiant Greatsword, and idk, bunker DH. Outside of the last one, these are legit powerful builds, that fulfill every role you need, and are completely functional as a teamcomp. Thief on the other hand? Well, you have D/P thief, a decap and +1 bot that cant 1v1 or teamfight. S/D thief, a decap and +1 bot that cant 1v1 or teamfight. DE, a decap and +1 bot that cant 1v1 or teamfight *and* isnt good at being a decap and +1 bot. Core condi thief a ... you get the gist. And then, what, P/P thief, which is also that? Thats 5 builds all fulfilling the same role (which you want only *1* of). Only 2 of them are arguably good. Maybe 3. And none of them can 1v1 a guardian, or even come close to hoping to win a teamfight. So, again, how does that team win?

> @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > @"DoomNexus.5324" said: > > > > > > > > I think every class with strong dps AND strong support would definitely win in a "every player has to play another build"-setup. > > > > > > > > Guard, Rev and Necro would be my top bets. > > > > > > > > Ele, Ranger, Engi and Warrior would probably be also pretty serious contenders but I doubt there are enough viable builds atm to keep a full team on-par with the ones mentioned earlier. I'm not saying they don't have strong builds but in specifically the setup OP established, I think there's just not enough viable variety with the current balance. > > > > > > > > Mesmer and thief would probably fail pretty bad since I don't think their support would be nowhere good enough to contend with the others and especially thief would lack pretty much everything in this kind of setup. Mesmer maaaaybe if they'd run different variations of burst builds and manage to end the fight before it even starts but I don't think so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > If u cannot win an at on 5 thief than u bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are u serious?. What great builds do thieves offer? Keep in mind, everyone has to play a different build.. > > > > > > > > 5 thieves against 5 guards? I doubt there would be any chance for the thieves if the guards are just camping close and mid, there's just nowhere near enough damage nor sustain to do anything. Again.. what great builds have thieves available? p/d condi? Is pretty much useless against guards, especially with a support.. d/p? Nowhere near enough damage to spike through aegis, shields, ... > > > > > > > > Same for Rev, Necro, probably even Ranger. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine thinking thief can do nothing about aegis and blocks > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean, sure, you can use shortbow 4 to interrupt blocks, but how exactly do you intend for the thieves to kill the guardians? The guardian can literally just sit on the points and the thieves are powerless to do anything. 5 thieves in general is atrociously bad, 5 thieves and you cant share builds? Yeesh. > > > > > > > > > > Ok get a team of 5 guards and I’ll gladly beat u with a 5 thief team. > > > > > > > > No, you wont. There is a reason people have done well with 5 guard teams in AT before (yes, they were memeing, but still), but no one has even tried to bring a 5 thief team to an AT before. Because they would get clapped and lose in round 1. If I were to put in the effort, what would happen is that your team of 5 thieves would lose embarassingly, and you will ignore it ever happened. But thats not worth the effort. > > > > > > NoOnEhaSeVRbroUghTa5tEeFteamToanAtbeFore > > > > I dont know why you just repeated the truth while completely bastardising the spelling and capitalisation. Is this meant to make a mockery of yourself? > > The fact you think winning an at as 5 thief is impossible is just so absolutely hilarious. I cannot tell u the amount of times I’ve played an at with 5- plat3-legend, best of best and/or former pro league player team literally against bronze/silver maybe 1 gold player teams all the way up to the finals. You think we would lose to ppl with even worse builds, about 1/10th the mechanical knowledge and rotational knowledge(note a rough estimation, but for this case hopefully practical)? And yet, no one has tried it. Not even as a meme. People have done 5 engineer, 5 guardian, 5 ele, 5 warrior, even 5 ranger I believe. Oh and 5 revenants obviously. But never 5 thieves. I wonder *why*. Hell, people have brought most of those to MATs too.

> @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > @"DoomNexus.5324" said: > > > > > > I think every class with strong dps AND strong support would definitely win in a "every player has to play another build"-setup. > > > > > > Guard, Rev and Necro would be my top bets. > > > > > > Ele, Ranger, Engi and Warrior would probably be also pretty serious contenders but I doubt there are enough viable builds atm to keep a full team on-par with the ones mentioned earlier. I'm not saying they don't have strong builds but in specifically the setup OP established, I think there's just not enough viable variety with the current balance. > > > > > > Mesmer and thief would probably fail pretty bad since I don't think their support would be nowhere good enough to contend with the others and especially thief would lack pretty much everything in this kind of setup. Mesmer maaaaybe if they'd run different variations of burst builds and manage to end the fight before it even starts but I don't think so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > If u cannot win an at on 5 thief than u bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > Are u serious?. What great builds do thieves offer? Keep in mind, everyone has to play a different build.. > > > > > > 5 thieves against 5 guards? I doubt there would be any chance for the thieves if the guards are just camping close and mid, there's just nowhere near enough damage nor sustain to do anything. Again.. what great builds have thieves available? p/d condi? Is pretty much useless against guards, especially with a support.. d/p? Nowhere near enough damage to spike through aegis, shields, ... > > > > > > Same for Rev, Necro, probably even Ranger. > > > > > > > > > > Imagine thinking thief can do nothing about aegis and blocks > > > > > > > > I mean, sure, you can use shortbow 4 to interrupt blocks, but how exactly do you intend for the thieves to kill the guardians? The guardian can literally just sit on the points and the thieves are powerless to do anything. 5 thieves in general is atrociously bad, 5 thieves and you cant share builds? Yeesh. > > > > > > Ok get a team of 5 guards and I’ll gladly beat u with a 5 thief team. > > > > No, you wont. There is a reason people have done well with 5 guard teams in AT before (yes, they were memeing, but still), but no one has even tried to bring a 5 thief team to an AT before. Because they would get clapped and lose in round 1. If I were to put in the effort, what would happen is that your team of 5 thieves would lose embarassingly, and you will ignore it ever happened. But thats not worth the effort. > > I’m sure u can train for months in preparation for a Daily at. Omegalul your embarrassing your self on the forums. Why would I? If we did it tomorrow, the result would still be the guardian team completely clapping the thief team, because 5 guardians is a bad, but functional, team. Even with non-repeating builds. 5 Thieves is not even functional *with* repeating builds. Without repeating builds? Youre basically playing 2v5.

> @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > @"DoomNexus.5324" said: > > > > > > I think every class with strong dps AND strong support would definitely win in a "every player has to play another build"-setup. > > > > > > Guard, Rev and Necro would be my top bets. > > > > > > Ele, Ranger, Engi and Warrior would probably be also pretty serious contenders but I doubt there are enough viable builds atm to keep a full team on-par with the ones mentioned earlier. I'm not saying they don't have strong builds but in specifically the setup OP established, I think there's just not enough viable variety with the current balance. > > > > > > Mesmer and thief would probably fail pretty bad since I don't think their support would be nowhere good enough to contend with the others and especially thief would lack pretty much everything in this kind of setup. Mesmer maaaaybe if they'd run different variations of burst builds and manage to end the fight before it even starts but I don't think so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > If u cannot win an at on 5 thief than u bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > Are u serious?. What great builds do thieves offer? Keep in mind, everyone has to play a different build.. > > > > > > 5 thieves against 5 guards? I doubt there would be any chance for the thieves if the guards are just camping close and mid, there's just nowhere near enough damage nor sustain to do anything. Again.. what great builds have thieves available? p/d condi? Is pretty much useless against guards, especially with a support.. d/p? Nowhere near enough damage to spike through aegis, shields, ... > > > > > > Same for Rev, Necro, probably even Ranger. > > > > > > > > > > Imagine thinking thief can do nothing about aegis and blocks > > > > > > > > I mean, sure, you can use shortbow 4 to interrupt blocks, but how exactly do you intend for the thieves to kill the guardians? The guardian can literally just sit on the points and the thieves are powerless to do anything. 5 thieves in general is atrociously bad, 5 thieves and you cant share builds? Yeesh. > > > > > > Ok get a team of 5 guards and I’ll gladly beat u with a 5 thief team. > > > > No, you wont. There is a reason people have done well with 5 guard teams in AT before (yes, they were memeing, but still), but no one has even tried to bring a 5 thief team to an AT before. Because they would get clapped and lose in round 1. If I were to put in the effort, what would happen is that your team of 5 thieves would lose embarassingly, and you will ignore it ever happened. But thats not worth the effort. > > NoOnEhaSeVRbroUghTa5tEeFteamToanAtbeFore I dont know why you just repeated the truth while completely bastardising the spelling and capitalisation. Is this meant to make a mockery of yourself?

> @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > @"DoomNexus.5324" said: > > > > I think every class with strong dps AND strong support would definitely win in a "every player has to play another build"-setup. > > > > Guard, Rev and Necro would be my top bets. > > > > Ele, Ranger, Engi and Warrior would probably be also pretty serious contenders but I doubt there are enough viable builds atm to keep a full team on-par with the ones mentioned earlier. I'm not saying they don't have strong builds but in specifically the setup OP established, I think there's just not enough viable variety with the current balance. > > > > Mesmer and thief would probably fail pretty bad since I don't think their support would be nowhere good enough to contend with the others and especially thief would lack pretty much everything in this kind of setup. Mesmer maaaaybe if they'd run different variations of burst builds and manage to end the fight before it even starts but I don't think so. > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > If u cannot win an at on 5 thief than u bad. > > > > > > > > Are u serious?. What great builds do thieves offer? Keep in mind, everyone has to play a different build.. > > > > 5 thieves against 5 guards? I doubt there would be any chance for the thieves if the guards are just camping close and mid, there's just nowhere near enough damage nor sustain to do anything. Again.. what great builds have thieves available? p/d condi? Is pretty much useless against guards, especially with a support.. d/p? Nowhere near enough damage to spike through aegis, shields, ... > > > > Same for Rev, Necro, probably even Ranger. > > > > > > Imagine thinking thief can do nothing about aegis and blocks > > > > I mean, sure, you can use shortbow 4 to interrupt blocks, but how exactly do you intend for the thieves to kill the guardians? The guardian can literally just sit on the points and the thieves are powerless to do anything. 5 thieves in general is atrociously bad, 5 thieves and you cant share builds? Yeesh. > > Ok get a team of 5 guards and I’ll gladly beat u with a 5 thief team. No, you wont. There is a reason people have done well with 5 guard teams in AT before (yes, they were memeing, but still), but no one has even tried to bring a 5 thief team to an AT before. Because they would get clapped and lose in round 1. If I were to put in the effort, what would happen is that your team of 5 thieves would lose embarassingly, and you will ignore it ever happened. But thats not worth the effort.

> @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > @"DoomNexus.5324" said: > > I think every class with strong dps AND strong support would definitely win in a "every player has to play another build"-setup. > > Guard, Rev and Necro would be my top bets. > > Ele, Ranger, Engi and Warrior would probably be also pretty serious contenders but I doubt there are enough viable builds atm to keep a full team on-par with the ones mentioned earlier. I'm not saying they don't have strong builds but in specifically the setup OP established, I think there's just not enough viable variety with the current balance. > > Mesmer and thief would probably fail pretty bad since I don't think their support would be nowhere good enough to contend with the others and especially thief would lack pretty much everything in this kind of setup. Mesmer maaaaybe if they'd run different variations of burst builds and manage to end the fight before it even starts but I don't think so. > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > If u cannot win an at on 5 thief than u bad. > > > > Are u serious?. What great builds do thieves offer? Keep in mind, everyone has to play a different build.. > > 5 thieves against 5 guards? I doubt there would be any chance for the thieves if the guards are just camping close and mid, there's just nowhere near enough damage nor sustain to do anything. Again.. what great builds have thieves available? p/d condi? Is pretty much useless against guards, especially with a support.. d/p? Nowhere near enough damage to spike through aegis, shields, ... > > Same for Rev, Necro, probably even Ranger. > > Imagine thinking thief can do nothing about aegis and blocks I mean, sure, you can use shortbow 4 to interrupt blocks, but how exactly do you intend for the thieves to kill the guardians? The guardian can literally just sit on the points and the thieves are powerless to do anything. 5 thieves in general is atrociously bad, 5 thieves and you cant share builds? Yeesh.

The issue is were already in major powerdip. Everything is too weak. We need buffs right now, not more nerfs.

> @"schloumou.3982" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Yasai.3549" said: > > > > @"Fueki.4753" said: > > > > > @"Yasai.3549" said: > > > > > Even with Grenade nerfs, Holo still vastly outperforms a good majority of builds. > > > > How about Arenanet tackles the actual problem, which is Holosmith, **not Core Engineer,** instead? > > > > After all, the over-performance comes out of that one traitline. > > > > > > Yea I get that people don't want Core touched, but Explosives is literally carrying the entire Engi Profession right now : it's just too good. > > > Scrapper is also just as bad as Holo when it comes to abusing Nades. > > > > > > If people really want Core Engi to be better, then start asking for Tools buffs or rework. > > > One thing which Core Engi has which isn't kitten like Holo and Scrapper is having a fully unrestricted Toolbelt, counting its Toolbelt Elite. > > > > > > Tools could use a significant rework to its traits so that it has more uses than just the passive traits. > > > For one, Static Discharge is still a load of hot garbage when it comes to its targeting. > > > Power Wrench is too specific to only Tool-Kit which is useless in general besides like 3 skills. > > > > > > Streamlined Kit effects are too weak compared to how strong Lock On is, because Engis can benefit way more from the Vuln application than any of the other effects from Streamlined Kit. > > > Takedown Round makes no sense existing on Tools tbh, it feels more like an Explosives Trait, and again, its usefulness is extremely limited being a damage only skill which only procs when the target is above 50% hp. > > > > > > Adrenal Implant : I have no idea why this thing is a GM Major. This is basically the same as Rev/Ranger's trait Minor but it's taking up a Major slot, on the GM tier. > > > Sure, it's 2x stronger, but it shouldn't really take a GM Major slot. > > > > > > Wanting Core to be strong is fine, but if Core, and by extension the entire Engi family is being carried by Explosives in their performance, it's obvious then that Explosives is way too strong. > > > > > > > > > The problem is that that wouldnt actually make Core Engineer playable. Core Engineer has an inherent flaw where its weapons are *garbage*. By design, theyre meant to be utility. Youre meant to use your utilities, i.e. primarily kits, for damage. If you nerf every half-way playable kit into oblivion, like Grenade Kit just was, then core engineer has no good weapon to use. Buffing Tools is not going to change that. And no, Explosives isnt the issue. Every thief is "carried" by Trickery. Every guardian is "carried" by virtues. There is usually one amazing traitline that every version of the class plays. Explosives is that traitline for engineer. Kinda always has been. > > I would maybe argue that it's actually alchemy. For all the years I play Engi, I can't recall a single viable build without it. And in combination with Holo it's providing stupid amounts of boons. Yeah, you could make a case for Alchemy.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Lurana.7506" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Lurana.7506" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stealth thief builds didn’t specifically get nerfed, but I think it’s more likely for sw/d build to take thief place- ie deadeye and s/d daredevil. These builds can sometimes win 1v1s and can snowball team fights where things like dhs and power revs might be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would you play a poor duelist who performs even worse in teamfights? Thiefs purpose hasnt changed, its still a decap and +1 bot. And there is nothing that made D/P specifically worse at that than other builds (And Deadeye is not going to work as long as projectile destruction and reflect is as abundant as it is, and DJ is as unhittable as it is). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You wouldn’t play a poor duelist- you would be playing a build that hard counters dh and power revs that has much improved mobility from d/p builds that can not only 1v1 better than other s/d builds but do more damage- just how Sa dp would do at least as much damage as Da dp, but with much improved sustain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Youre playing thief. That means youre playing a poor duelist at best. How exactly do you intend to counter DH, who still has better damage, defense, CC and sustain? Youd still be a pure decap and +1 bot that avoids 1v1s like the plague, so there is no real advantage to D/P. Its not like you get more mobility because IA is still the best movement you have. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dh can 1v1 at least in ranked, but it’s not a 1v1 build. Keep in mind s/d daredevil is and has been possibly the best counter to these dh builds for multiple seasons at least according to multiple plat-legend guards and thief players. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean of course DH is not a 1v1 build. But Thief is not a 1v1 *class*. And when it comes to 1v1ing, DH still does a lot better. Thief is a counter in +1 scenarios, not 1v1 scenarios. And its good at that because it can rip crucial boons from DH, interrupt their high cast time valuable skills with ease, and mess them up with blinds. But, in a 1v1 scenario that doesnt save the thief. He still loses. There is a reason DH was fine in the 2v2 seasons (though not top tier) and thief was either the only, or one of the only two classes that were unplayable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well I play Daredevil and even though I'm not asking for 1v1 situations, I sometimes find myself in a duel. So I try and if it's obvious I'll loose, I go. But I very successfully duel Mesmers, Engi and Necros all the time. The other classes are more difficult to play against for me. But I can duel these three pretty well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean, I can win 1v1s as Deadeye against Guardians. That doesnt mean DE can 1v1 Guardians, it most definitely cannot, it just means that sometimes your level of play is significantly higher over your opponents skill level to the point where you win even a matchup you shouldnt win. Of the 3 you mention, thief can actually duel condi mesmer well because plasma is stupid. Engineer is basically a loss every time if the Engineer knows their way around their class (seriously I play Core Engineer, which is just a weaker Holo a lot of the time, and I dont lose to thieves), Necro depends on their build, but any Necro that you would encounter in a 1v1 is a Necro that is going to clap thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right, it depends a lot on the skill of the player. When a necro player and a thief player (current meta builds) with equal skill on their class fight a 1v1, the necro will win. But in reality, it's not that easy and e.g. roamer classes win against duelists all the time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you have trouble 1v1ing a necro as deadeye, than this equal match would be in his mmr which is like 500 less than any good players > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If its a necro that actually wants to 1v1? Yeah no, its going to absolutely clap deadeye. The necro would have to be *really* awful to lose that one. Just dodge the Death's Judgment and the Deadeye straight up wont have the damage to kill you. Meanwhile you can just crush them from afar, especially since Ghastly Claws tracks through stealth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah in silver teir I’m sure that’s the case because it’s an ez class. Duel an actually relevant De player on necro . A plat3+ De shouldn’t have trouble 1v1ing any necro in the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its the case anywhere, but I guess if you dont have an argument, false elitism is all you can go for, huh? But please, do explain how a class that cant kill the other one because their damage is literally too low, but can be killed pretty easily because their health is also too low *totally* wins the 1v1. Remember, one of these classes was arguably top tier in 2v2, due to its power in fighting even in a 1v2, the other class was literally unplayable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok I guess if u think u can 1v1 good Des like faeleth hitzer etc on necro good luck since I’ve never seen even the best necros in the game do it. Maybe it’s just fake elitism but I also remember A decent De named faeleth finishing the first 2v2 season with only 1 or 2 losses which is definitely near legend, so can I ask what rank u were in 2s on your op meta build while a De main could play it like a meta build. Geez what is up with ppl on forums as if I’m lying that the ppl who actually put their time into learning a class and play it at the highest level in pvp actually do good on it, what audacity > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And how many of those necros were 1v1 builds like, idk, reaper? I imagine none, if they actually managed to lose 1v1s to DE somehow. It most certainly is fake elitism. And while I cant say I remember Faeleth, if what you say is true, I have a guess as to who his duo partner was playing. Was it Necro? Of course it was. Guess even a bad build could be carried by Necro in the first season. But ask yourself why thief as a whole was considered unplayable in 2v2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh its not that youre lying, its just your track record is ... bad. You have made a lot of predictions and claims. In the entire 2 years since Ive seen you on this forum, Ive not seen you be right about those *once*. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You say I am wrong, but you are wrong on many fronts in this argument. Faeleth streamed his games and he duo qd with a Mesmer. Doing good in 2s is not an indicator of a strong 1v1 build, but then again necro was not doing what u claimed in 2s, I played necro in legend on Na and Eu and this never happened- the best build was a scourge bunker build that could occasionally meme ppl during map mechanic , not win 1v2s and that build while it is not bad in some 1v1s can do literally nothing against a De- it’ll do no damage since deadeye can stand off node and it cannot kite or out sustain a deadeye forever. It’s literally a 100-0 losing match up to deadeye, so your proof of an op 1v1 necro is an even worse match up into deadeye than core which is like in low skill match ups 50-50 and high skill ones a losing 75-25 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You said in the *first* season. I dont know if you forgot, or more likely, made this up on the fly and didnt make sure your made-up story was realistic, but the meta in the first 2v2 season was Core Necro (sometimes reaper, but it was weaker) with no scourge in sight, firebrand, and condi revenant. Core Necro in particular was infamous for its ability to 1v2, Firebrand was usually the support to go along with it. Condi Revenant had some other application, though I honestly dont remember what it was. If you cant even get that part of the story straight, Im pretty sure we can completely disregard the rest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "It'll do no damage", what the hell are you on about? If the DE doesnt 1v1 them, then the DE also wont be doing damage to them either. Were talking about an actual 1v1. Now lets ignore that DE shouldn't kneel in the first place because its bad and youre better off spamming 2 when unkneeled, even if the DE *did* kneel, the Necro would just have to step forward slightly, and theyre already in range. Or step back slightly and be out of range. There is no way for the thief to do any damage without taking a lot *more* damage in return. Now sure, when the DE is about to lose the 1v1 (not if, its a certainty), they will run, but not losing is not winning either. In reality, whenever the DE tries to hit the necro, he will barely scratch the necro while taking massive damage themself. They cannot outsustain the necro, nor can they realistically kite them. Its literally a 0% win rate match for the DE. At most they can achieve a draw. If they dont run away, they lose 100% of the time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again it’s literally the same deal even if your only talking about the first season, there was a bunker core necro yeah your right but it also didn’t do damage and wouldn’t 1v2. It was good for being very tanky as well as having a strong rez tool just like scourge and it was also completely irrelevant in the 1v1 scene and would never be able to kill a deadeye 1v1- the best it would do would not die since it was stacking a whole lot more power damage mitigation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "It also didn't do damage". Yknow if you were gonna talk about a period of the game you were clearly unfamiliar with, it would've done you well to research at least a little bit. It would've helped you avoid making a statement so wrong. And thats just for core necro, whereas reaper just completely demolished. A deadeye could never, under *any* circumstances win a 1v1 against Necro. The best it could do is not die. But thats by running away. If confined into a small arena (like the 2v2 gamemode did), Deadeye couldn't run away, and as a result would always die. Thats a large part of why it was even worse than the already unplayable thief in 2v2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean lets ignore precedent, and just talk about merits. How exactly do you think Deadeye would win? It cant outrange necro. It has worse sustain, worse survivability and worse damage. It has worse CC, worse utility, worse conditions (obviously) and much more avoidable damage. Its better at running away, but again, not losing is not winning either. Where is the magical method the theif uses to win? > > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine talking about “period of the game I’m unfamiliar with” when literally you are referencing a thing from another period of the game that is also a completely different build and meta as to the one you are talking about. Also you were clearly out skilled by a player who achieved a higher rank(than you’ve probably ever been) on a build you think is a meme. > > > > > > > > > > Youre the one who, inexplicably, referenced that period of the game. Despite not knowing that period of the game at all. Im just baffled you keep talking about things you dont know despite having a successful prediction rate of 0%, and pretty poor rate of correctly identifying what is, and isnt strong. And no, but I guess if you have no argument (because you know you're wrong), you have to resort to ad hominem. I only saw DE as enemies in those 2v2 seasons. They were free wins. I did not lose a single one, not even the one time my ally DCd for half the match. > > > > > > > > > > > But considering all that you still think I’m unfamiliar with the game how about you try to 1v1 me on anything- I am pretty confident in my 1v1 skills and my mutilclass skills and would gladly take even the “best player” on the “best build” on anytime during ats with the win on the line. > > > > > > > > > > Considering *what*? You havent said a single thing of substance. > > > > > > > > And I quote- “ there is a reason necro is well known for winning 1v2”. While you are over there laughing to yourself I’m here in front of everyone on the forums saying I’ll gladly take you in a 1v1 on any class or build and dumpster it over and over again until I am more “familiar” with the game. > > > > > > You ... quote a sentence that doesnt exist. What? But yeah at this point its pretty clear you have no argument, so there is no point in me humouring your attempt at distracting from the fact that you have no argument. And even when I beat you, its not like you will say "oh Im sorry, I was wrong". Youll just ignore it. So, pass. > > > > Ok we can collect some quotes so everyone can laugh- “how many of those necros where 1v1 builds like idk reaper” “core necro in particular was infamous for its ability to 1v2” “meanwhile you can just crush them from afar” “a deadeye could never under *any circumstances could beat a necro 1v1” > > > > “I OnLy SaW dE As eNeMiEs DuRing tHoSe 2v2 sEaSoNs” > > > > “I dId NoT LoSe a SinGle One” > > > > Quiet a research job u did here > > you still arguing with mathematician? Seriously? Are you *still* hung up about being completely duped by a fabrication and doubling down when it was shown to be a fabrication? Come on mate, you gotta let it go already.