UNOwen.7132

> @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Lurana.7506" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Lurana.7506" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stealth thief builds didn’t specifically get nerfed, but I think it’s more likely for sw/d build to take thief place- ie deadeye and s/d daredevil. These builds can sometimes win 1v1s and can snowball team fights where things like dhs and power revs might be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would you play a poor duelist who performs even worse in teamfights? Thiefs purpose hasnt changed, its still a decap and +1 bot. And there is nothing that made D/P specifically worse at that than other builds (And Deadeye is not going to work as long as projectile destruction and reflect is as abundant as it is, and DJ is as unhittable as it is). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You wouldn’t play a poor duelist- you would be playing a build that hard counters dh and power revs that has much improved mobility from d/p builds that can not only 1v1 better than other s/d builds but do more damage- just how Sa dp would do at least as much damage as Da dp, but with much improved sustain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Youre playing thief. That means youre playing a poor duelist at best. How exactly do you intend to counter DH, who still has better damage, defense, CC and sustain? Youd still be a pure decap and +1 bot that avoids 1v1s like the plague, so there is no real advantage to D/P. Its not like you get more mobility because IA is still the best movement you have. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dh can 1v1 at least in ranked, but it’s not a 1v1 build. Keep in mind s/d daredevil is and has been possibly the best counter to these dh builds for multiple seasons at least according to multiple plat-legend guards and thief players. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean of course DH is not a 1v1 build. But Thief is not a 1v1 *class*. And when it comes to 1v1ing, DH still does a lot better. Thief is a counter in +1 scenarios, not 1v1 scenarios. And its good at that because it can rip crucial boons from DH, interrupt their high cast time valuable skills with ease, and mess them up with blinds. But, in a 1v1 scenario that doesnt save the thief. He still loses. There is a reason DH was fine in the 2v2 seasons (though not top tier) and thief was either the only, or one of the only two classes that were unplayable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well I play Daredevil and even though I'm not asking for 1v1 situations, I sometimes find myself in a duel. So I try and if it's obvious I'll loose, I go. But I very successfully duel Mesmers, Engi and Necros all the time. The other classes are more difficult to play against for me. But I can duel these three pretty well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean, I can win 1v1s as Deadeye against Guardians. That doesnt mean DE can 1v1 Guardians, it most definitely cannot, it just means that sometimes your level of play is significantly higher over your opponents skill level to the point where you win even a matchup you shouldnt win. Of the 3 you mention, thief can actually duel condi mesmer well because plasma is stupid. Engineer is basically a loss every time if the Engineer knows their way around their class (seriously I play Core Engineer, which is just a weaker Holo a lot of the time, and I dont lose to thieves), Necro depends on their build, but any Necro that you would encounter in a 1v1 is a Necro that is going to clap thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right, it depends a lot on the skill of the player. When a necro player and a thief player (current meta builds) with equal skill on their class fight a 1v1, the necro will win. But in reality, it's not that easy and e.g. roamer classes win against duelists all the time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you have trouble 1v1ing a necro as deadeye, than this equal match would be in his mmr which is like 500 less than any good players > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If its a necro that actually wants to 1v1? Yeah no, its going to absolutely clap deadeye. The necro would have to be *really* awful to lose that one. Just dodge the Death's Judgment and the Deadeye straight up wont have the damage to kill you. Meanwhile you can just crush them from afar, especially since Ghastly Claws tracks through stealth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah in silver teir I’m sure that’s the case because it’s an ez class. Duel an actually relevant De player on necro . A plat3+ De shouldn’t have trouble 1v1ing any necro in the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its the case anywhere, but I guess if you dont have an argument, false elitism is all you can go for, huh? But please, do explain how a class that cant kill the other one because their damage is literally too low, but can be killed pretty easily because their health is also too low *totally* wins the 1v1. Remember, one of these classes was arguably top tier in 2v2, due to its power in fighting even in a 1v2, the other class was literally unplayable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok I guess if u think u can 1v1 good Des like faeleth hitzer etc on necro good luck since I’ve never seen even the best necros in the game do it. Maybe it’s just fake elitism but I also remember A decent De named faeleth finishing the first 2v2 season with only 1 or 2 losses which is definitely near legend, so can I ask what rank u were in 2s on your op meta build while a De main could play it like a meta build. Geez what is up with ppl on forums as if I’m lying that the ppl who actually put their time into learning a class and play it at the highest level in pvp actually do good on it, what audacity > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And how many of those necros were 1v1 builds like, idk, reaper? I imagine none, if they actually managed to lose 1v1s to DE somehow. It most certainly is fake elitism. And while I cant say I remember Faeleth, if what you say is true, I have a guess as to who his duo partner was playing. Was it Necro? Of course it was. Guess even a bad build could be carried by Necro in the first season. But ask yourself why thief as a whole was considered unplayable in 2v2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh its not that youre lying, its just your track record is ... bad. You have made a lot of predictions and claims. In the entire 2 years since Ive seen you on this forum, Ive not seen you be right about those *once*. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You say I am wrong, but you are wrong on many fronts in this argument. Faeleth streamed his games and he duo qd with a Mesmer. Doing good in 2s is not an indicator of a strong 1v1 build, but then again necro was not doing what u claimed in 2s, I played necro in legend on Na and Eu and this never happened- the best build was a scourge bunker build that could occasionally meme ppl during map mechanic , not win 1v2s and that build while it is not bad in some 1v1s can do literally nothing against a De- it’ll do no damage since deadeye can stand off node and it cannot kite or out sustain a deadeye forever. It’s literally a 100-0 losing match up to deadeye, so your proof of an op 1v1 necro is an even worse match up into deadeye than core which is like in low skill match ups 50-50 and high skill ones a losing 75-25 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You said in the *first* season. I dont know if you forgot, or more likely, made this up on the fly and didnt make sure your made-up story was realistic, but the meta in the first 2v2 season was Core Necro (sometimes reaper, but it was weaker) with no scourge in sight, firebrand, and condi revenant. Core Necro in particular was infamous for its ability to 1v2, Firebrand was usually the support to go along with it. Condi Revenant had some other application, though I honestly dont remember what it was. If you cant even get that part of the story straight, Im pretty sure we can completely disregard the rest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "It'll do no damage", what the hell are you on about? If the DE doesnt 1v1 them, then the DE also wont be doing damage to them either. Were talking about an actual 1v1. Now lets ignore that DE shouldn't kneel in the first place because its bad and youre better off spamming 2 when unkneeled, even if the DE *did* kneel, the Necro would just have to step forward slightly, and theyre already in range. Or step back slightly and be out of range. There is no way for the thief to do any damage without taking a lot *more* damage in return. Now sure, when the DE is about to lose the 1v1 (not if, its a certainty), they will run, but not losing is not winning either. In reality, whenever the DE tries to hit the necro, he will barely scratch the necro while taking massive damage themself. They cannot outsustain the necro, nor can they realistically kite them. Its literally a 0% win rate match for the DE. At most they can achieve a draw. If they dont run away, they lose 100% of the time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again it’s literally the same deal even if your only talking about the first season, there was a bunker core necro yeah your right but it also didn’t do damage and wouldn’t 1v2. It was good for being very tanky as well as having a strong rez tool just like scourge and it was also completely irrelevant in the 1v1 scene and would never be able to kill a deadeye 1v1- the best it would do would not die since it was stacking a whole lot more power damage mitigation. > > > > > > > > > > > > "It also didn't do damage". Yknow if you were gonna talk about a period of the game you were clearly unfamiliar with, it would've done you well to research at least a little bit. It would've helped you avoid making a statement so wrong. And thats just for core necro, whereas reaper just completely demolished. A deadeye could never, under *any* circumstances win a 1v1 against Necro. The best it could do is not die. But thats by running away. If confined into a small arena (like the 2v2 gamemode did), Deadeye couldn't run away, and as a result would always die. Thats a large part of why it was even worse than the already unplayable thief in 2v2. > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean lets ignore precedent, and just talk about merits. How exactly do you think Deadeye would win? It cant outrange necro. It has worse sustain, worse survivability and worse damage. It has worse CC, worse utility, worse conditions (obviously) and much more avoidable damage. Its better at running away, but again, not losing is not winning either. Where is the magical method the theif uses to win? > > > > > > > > > > Imagine talking about “period of the game I’m unfamiliar with” when literally you are referencing a thing from another period of the game that is also a completely different build and meta as to the one you are talking about. Also you were clearly out skilled by a player who achieved a higher rank(than you’ve probably ever been) on a build you think is a meme. > > > > > > > > Youre the one who, inexplicably, referenced that period of the game. Despite not knowing that period of the game at all. Im just baffled you keep talking about things you dont know despite having a successful prediction rate of 0%, and pretty poor rate of correctly identifying what is, and isnt strong. And no, but I guess if you have no argument (because you know you're wrong), you have to resort to ad hominem. I only saw DE as enemies in those 2v2 seasons. They were free wins. I did not lose a single one, not even the one time my ally DCd for half the match. > > > > > > > > > But considering all that you still think I’m unfamiliar with the game how about you try to 1v1 me on anything- I am pretty confident in my 1v1 skills and my mutilclass skills and would gladly take even the “best player” on the “best build” on anytime during ats with the win on the line. > > > > > > > > Considering *what*? You havent said a single thing of substance. > > > > > > And I quote- “ there is a reason necro is well known for winning 1v2”. While you are over there laughing to yourself I’m here in front of everyone on the forums saying I’ll gladly take you in a 1v1 on any class or build and dumpster it over and over again until I am more “familiar” with the game. > > > > You ... quote a sentence that doesnt exist. What? But yeah at this point its pretty clear you have no argument, so there is no point in me humouring your attempt at distracting from the fact that you have no argument. And even when I beat you, its not like you will say "oh Im sorry, I was wrong". Youll just ignore it. So, pass. > > Ok we can collect some quotes so everyone can laugh- “how many of those necros where 1v1 builds like idk reaper” “core necro in particular was infamous for its ability to 1v2” “meanwhile you can just crush them from afar” “a deadeye could never under *any circumstances could beat a necro 1v1” > > “I OnLy SaW dE As eNeMiEs DuRing tHoSe 2v2 sEaSoNs” > > “I dId NoT LoSe a SinGle One” > > Quiet a research job u did here I mean, if you can find it in you to laugh at objective truth, more power to you. Though Im going to say, its *exceptionally* weird. Quite possibly the weirdest reaction to truth I have ever seen. Then again, you dont seem to be very fond of truth to begin with. But yes, unfortunately your lack of knowledge about 2v2 really hurt you. You got Core Necros state completely wrong, DEs power completely wrong, and nothing right.

> @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Lurana.7506" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Lurana.7506" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stealth thief builds didn’t specifically get nerfed, but I think it’s more likely for sw/d build to take thief place- ie deadeye and s/d daredevil. These builds can sometimes win 1v1s and can snowball team fights where things like dhs and power revs might be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would you play a poor duelist who performs even worse in teamfights? Thiefs purpose hasnt changed, its still a decap and +1 bot. And there is nothing that made D/P specifically worse at that than other builds (And Deadeye is not going to work as long as projectile destruction and reflect is as abundant as it is, and DJ is as unhittable as it is). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You wouldn’t play a poor duelist- you would be playing a build that hard counters dh and power revs that has much improved mobility from d/p builds that can not only 1v1 better than other s/d builds but do more damage- just how Sa dp would do at least as much damage as Da dp, but with much improved sustain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Youre playing thief. That means youre playing a poor duelist at best. How exactly do you intend to counter DH, who still has better damage, defense, CC and sustain? Youd still be a pure decap and +1 bot that avoids 1v1s like the plague, so there is no real advantage to D/P. Its not like you get more mobility because IA is still the best movement you have. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dh can 1v1 at least in ranked, but it’s not a 1v1 build. Keep in mind s/d daredevil is and has been possibly the best counter to these dh builds for multiple seasons at least according to multiple plat-legend guards and thief players. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean of course DH is not a 1v1 build. But Thief is not a 1v1 *class*. And when it comes to 1v1ing, DH still does a lot better. Thief is a counter in +1 scenarios, not 1v1 scenarios. And its good at that because it can rip crucial boons from DH, interrupt their high cast time valuable skills with ease, and mess them up with blinds. But, in a 1v1 scenario that doesnt save the thief. He still loses. There is a reason DH was fine in the 2v2 seasons (though not top tier) and thief was either the only, or one of the only two classes that were unplayable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well I play Daredevil and even though I'm not asking for 1v1 situations, I sometimes find myself in a duel. So I try and if it's obvious I'll loose, I go. But I very successfully duel Mesmers, Engi and Necros all the time. The other classes are more difficult to play against for me. But I can duel these three pretty well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean, I can win 1v1s as Deadeye against Guardians. That doesnt mean DE can 1v1 Guardians, it most definitely cannot, it just means that sometimes your level of play is significantly higher over your opponents skill level to the point where you win even a matchup you shouldnt win. Of the 3 you mention, thief can actually duel condi mesmer well because plasma is stupid. Engineer is basically a loss every time if the Engineer knows their way around their class (seriously I play Core Engineer, which is just a weaker Holo a lot of the time, and I dont lose to thieves), Necro depends on their build, but any Necro that you would encounter in a 1v1 is a Necro that is going to clap thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right, it depends a lot on the skill of the player. When a necro player and a thief player (current meta builds) with equal skill on their class fight a 1v1, the necro will win. But in reality, it's not that easy and e.g. roamer classes win against duelists all the time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you have trouble 1v1ing a necro as deadeye, than this equal match would be in his mmr which is like 500 less than any good players > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If its a necro that actually wants to 1v1? Yeah no, its going to absolutely clap deadeye. The necro would have to be *really* awful to lose that one. Just dodge the Death's Judgment and the Deadeye straight up wont have the damage to kill you. Meanwhile you can just crush them from afar, especially since Ghastly Claws tracks through stealth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah in silver teir I’m sure that’s the case because it’s an ez class. Duel an actually relevant De player on necro . A plat3+ De shouldn’t have trouble 1v1ing any necro in the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its the case anywhere, but I guess if you dont have an argument, false elitism is all you can go for, huh? But please, do explain how a class that cant kill the other one because their damage is literally too low, but can be killed pretty easily because their health is also too low *totally* wins the 1v1. Remember, one of these classes was arguably top tier in 2v2, due to its power in fighting even in a 1v2, the other class was literally unplayable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok I guess if u think u can 1v1 good Des like faeleth hitzer etc on necro good luck since I’ve never seen even the best necros in the game do it. Maybe it’s just fake elitism but I also remember A decent De named faeleth finishing the first 2v2 season with only 1 or 2 losses which is definitely near legend, so can I ask what rank u were in 2s on your op meta build while a De main could play it like a meta build. Geez what is up with ppl on forums as if I’m lying that the ppl who actually put their time into learning a class and play it at the highest level in pvp actually do good on it, what audacity > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And how many of those necros were 1v1 builds like, idk, reaper? I imagine none, if they actually managed to lose 1v1s to DE somehow. It most certainly is fake elitism. And while I cant say I remember Faeleth, if what you say is true, I have a guess as to who his duo partner was playing. Was it Necro? Of course it was. Guess even a bad build could be carried by Necro in the first season. But ask yourself why thief as a whole was considered unplayable in 2v2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh its not that youre lying, its just your track record is ... bad. You have made a lot of predictions and claims. In the entire 2 years since Ive seen you on this forum, Ive not seen you be right about those *once*. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You say I am wrong, but you are wrong on many fronts in this argument. Faeleth streamed his games and he duo qd with a Mesmer. Doing good in 2s is not an indicator of a strong 1v1 build, but then again necro was not doing what u claimed in 2s, I played necro in legend on Na and Eu and this never happened- the best build was a scourge bunker build that could occasionally meme ppl during map mechanic , not win 1v2s and that build while it is not bad in some 1v1s can do literally nothing against a De- it’ll do no damage since deadeye can stand off node and it cannot kite or out sustain a deadeye forever. It’s literally a 100-0 losing match up to deadeye, so your proof of an op 1v1 necro is an even worse match up into deadeye than core which is like in low skill match ups 50-50 and high skill ones a losing 75-25 > > > > > > > > > > > > You said in the *first* season. I dont know if you forgot, or more likely, made this up on the fly and didnt make sure your made-up story was realistic, but the meta in the first 2v2 season was Core Necro (sometimes reaper, but it was weaker) with no scourge in sight, firebrand, and condi revenant. Core Necro in particular was infamous for its ability to 1v2, Firebrand was usually the support to go along with it. Condi Revenant had some other application, though I honestly dont remember what it was. If you cant even get that part of the story straight, Im pretty sure we can completely disregard the rest. > > > > > > > > > > > > "It'll do no damage", what the hell are you on about? If the DE doesnt 1v1 them, then the DE also wont be doing damage to them either. Were talking about an actual 1v1. Now lets ignore that DE shouldn't kneel in the first place because its bad and youre better off spamming 2 when unkneeled, even if the DE *did* kneel, the Necro would just have to step forward slightly, and theyre already in range. Or step back slightly and be out of range. There is no way for the thief to do any damage without taking a lot *more* damage in return. Now sure, when the DE is about to lose the 1v1 (not if, its a certainty), they will run, but not losing is not winning either. In reality, whenever the DE tries to hit the necro, he will barely scratch the necro while taking massive damage themself. They cannot outsustain the necro, nor can they realistically kite them. Its literally a 0% win rate match for the DE. At most they can achieve a draw. If they dont run away, they lose 100% of the time. > > > > > > > > > > Again it’s literally the same deal even if your only talking about the first season, there was a bunker core necro yeah your right but it also didn’t do damage and wouldn’t 1v2. It was good for being very tanky as well as having a strong rez tool just like scourge and it was also completely irrelevant in the 1v1 scene and would never be able to kill a deadeye 1v1- the best it would do would not die since it was stacking a whole lot more power damage mitigation. > > > > > > > > "It also didn't do damage". Yknow if you were gonna talk about a period of the game you were clearly unfamiliar with, it would've done you well to research at least a little bit. It would've helped you avoid making a statement so wrong. And thats just for core necro, whereas reaper just completely demolished. A deadeye could never, under *any* circumstances win a 1v1 against Necro. The best it could do is not die. But thats by running away. If confined into a small arena (like the 2v2 gamemode did), Deadeye couldn't run away, and as a result would always die. Thats a large part of why it was even worse than the already unplayable thief in 2v2. > > > > > > > > I mean lets ignore precedent, and just talk about merits. How exactly do you think Deadeye would win? It cant outrange necro. It has worse sustain, worse survivability and worse damage. It has worse CC, worse utility, worse conditions (obviously) and much more avoidable damage. Its better at running away, but again, not losing is not winning either. Where is the magical method the theif uses to win? > > > > > > Imagine talking about “period of the game I’m unfamiliar with” when literally you are referencing a thing from another period of the game that is also a completely different build and meta as to the one you are talking about. Also you were clearly out skilled by a player who achieved a higher rank(than you’ve probably ever been) on a build you think is a meme. > > > > Youre the one who, inexplicably, referenced that period of the game. Despite not knowing that period of the game at all. Im just baffled you keep talking about things you dont know despite having a successful prediction rate of 0%, and pretty poor rate of correctly identifying what is, and isnt strong. And no, but I guess if you have no argument (because you know you're wrong), you have to resort to ad hominem. I only saw DE as enemies in those 2v2 seasons. They were free wins. I did not lose a single one, not even the one time my ally DCd for half the match. > > > > > But considering all that you still think I’m unfamiliar with the game how about you try to 1v1 me on anything- I am pretty confident in my 1v1 skills and my mutilclass skills and would gladly take even the “best player” on the “best build” on anytime during ats with the win on the line. > > > > Considering *what*? You havent said a single thing of substance. > > And I quote- “ there is a reason necro is well known for winning 1v2”. While you are over there laughing to yourself I’m here in front of everyone on the forums saying I’ll gladly take you in a 1v1 on any class or build and dumpster it over and over again until I am more “familiar” with the game. You ... quote a sentence that doesnt exist. What? But yeah at this point its pretty clear you have no argument, so there is no point in me humouring your attempt at distracting from the fact that you have no argument. And even when I beat you, its not like you will say "oh Im sorry, I was wrong". Youll just ignore it. So, pass.

> @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Lurana.7506" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Lurana.7506" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stealth thief builds didn’t specifically get nerfed, but I think it’s more likely for sw/d build to take thief place- ie deadeye and s/d daredevil. These builds can sometimes win 1v1s and can snowball team fights where things like dhs and power revs might be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would you play a poor duelist who performs even worse in teamfights? Thiefs purpose hasnt changed, its still a decap and +1 bot. And there is nothing that made D/P specifically worse at that than other builds (And Deadeye is not going to work as long as projectile destruction and reflect is as abundant as it is, and DJ is as unhittable as it is). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You wouldn’t play a poor duelist- you would be playing a build that hard counters dh and power revs that has much improved mobility from d/p builds that can not only 1v1 better than other s/d builds but do more damage- just how Sa dp would do at least as much damage as Da dp, but with much improved sustain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Youre playing thief. That means youre playing a poor duelist at best. How exactly do you intend to counter DH, who still has better damage, defense, CC and sustain? Youd still be a pure decap and +1 bot that avoids 1v1s like the plague, so there is no real advantage to D/P. Its not like you get more mobility because IA is still the best movement you have. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dh can 1v1 at least in ranked, but it’s not a 1v1 build. Keep in mind s/d daredevil is and has been possibly the best counter to these dh builds for multiple seasons at least according to multiple plat-legend guards and thief players. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean of course DH is not a 1v1 build. But Thief is not a 1v1 *class*. And when it comes to 1v1ing, DH still does a lot better. Thief is a counter in +1 scenarios, not 1v1 scenarios. And its good at that because it can rip crucial boons from DH, interrupt their high cast time valuable skills with ease, and mess them up with blinds. But, in a 1v1 scenario that doesnt save the thief. He still loses. There is a reason DH was fine in the 2v2 seasons (though not top tier) and thief was either the only, or one of the only two classes that were unplayable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well I play Daredevil and even though I'm not asking for 1v1 situations, I sometimes find myself in a duel. So I try and if it's obvious I'll loose, I go. But I very successfully duel Mesmers, Engi and Necros all the time. The other classes are more difficult to play against for me. But I can duel these three pretty well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean, I can win 1v1s as Deadeye against Guardians. That doesnt mean DE can 1v1 Guardians, it most definitely cannot, it just means that sometimes your level of play is significantly higher over your opponents skill level to the point where you win even a matchup you shouldnt win. Of the 3 you mention, thief can actually duel condi mesmer well because plasma is stupid. Engineer is basically a loss every time if the Engineer knows their way around their class (seriously I play Core Engineer, which is just a weaker Holo a lot of the time, and I dont lose to thieves), Necro depends on their build, but any Necro that you would encounter in a 1v1 is a Necro that is going to clap thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right, it depends a lot on the skill of the player. When a necro player and a thief player (current meta builds) with equal skill on their class fight a 1v1, the necro will win. But in reality, it's not that easy and e.g. roamer classes win against duelists all the time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you have trouble 1v1ing a necro as deadeye, than this equal match would be in his mmr which is like 500 less than any good players > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If its a necro that actually wants to 1v1? Yeah no, its going to absolutely clap deadeye. The necro would have to be *really* awful to lose that one. Just dodge the Death's Judgment and the Deadeye straight up wont have the damage to kill you. Meanwhile you can just crush them from afar, especially since Ghastly Claws tracks through stealth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah in silver teir I’m sure that’s the case because it’s an ez class. Duel an actually relevant De player on necro . A plat3+ De shouldn’t have trouble 1v1ing any necro in the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its the case anywhere, but I guess if you dont have an argument, false elitism is all you can go for, huh? But please, do explain how a class that cant kill the other one because their damage is literally too low, but can be killed pretty easily because their health is also too low *totally* wins the 1v1. Remember, one of these classes was arguably top tier in 2v2, due to its power in fighting even in a 1v2, the other class was literally unplayable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok I guess if u think u can 1v1 good Des like faeleth hitzer etc on necro good luck since I’ve never seen even the best necros in the game do it. Maybe it’s just fake elitism but I also remember A decent De named faeleth finishing the first 2v2 season with only 1 or 2 losses which is definitely near legend, so can I ask what rank u were in 2s on your op meta build while a De main could play it like a meta build. Geez what is up with ppl on forums as if I’m lying that the ppl who actually put their time into learning a class and play it at the highest level in pvp actually do good on it, what audacity > > > > > > > > > > > > And how many of those necros were 1v1 builds like, idk, reaper? I imagine none, if they actually managed to lose 1v1s to DE somehow. It most certainly is fake elitism. And while I cant say I remember Faeleth, if what you say is true, I have a guess as to who his duo partner was playing. Was it Necro? Of course it was. Guess even a bad build could be carried by Necro in the first season. But ask yourself why thief as a whole was considered unplayable in 2v2. > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh its not that youre lying, its just your track record is ... bad. You have made a lot of predictions and claims. In the entire 2 years since Ive seen you on this forum, Ive not seen you be right about those *once*. > > > > > > > > > > You say I am wrong, but you are wrong on many fronts in this argument. Faeleth streamed his games and he duo qd with a Mesmer. Doing good in 2s is not an indicator of a strong 1v1 build, but then again necro was not doing what u claimed in 2s, I played necro in legend on Na and Eu and this never happened- the best build was a scourge bunker build that could occasionally meme ppl during map mechanic , not win 1v2s and that build while it is not bad in some 1v1s can do literally nothing against a De- it’ll do no damage since deadeye can stand off node and it cannot kite or out sustain a deadeye forever. It’s literally a 100-0 losing match up to deadeye, so your proof of an op 1v1 necro is an even worse match up into deadeye than core which is like in low skill match ups 50-50 and high skill ones a losing 75-25 > > > > > > > > You said in the *first* season. I dont know if you forgot, or more likely, made this up on the fly and didnt make sure your made-up story was realistic, but the meta in the first 2v2 season was Core Necro (sometimes reaper, but it was weaker) with no scourge in sight, firebrand, and condi revenant. Core Necro in particular was infamous for its ability to 1v2, Firebrand was usually the support to go along with it. Condi Revenant had some other application, though I honestly dont remember what it was. If you cant even get that part of the story straight, Im pretty sure we can completely disregard the rest. > > > > > > > > "It'll do no damage", what the hell are you on about? If the DE doesnt 1v1 them, then the DE also wont be doing damage to them either. Were talking about an actual 1v1. Now lets ignore that DE shouldn't kneel in the first place because its bad and youre better off spamming 2 when unkneeled, even if the DE *did* kneel, the Necro would just have to step forward slightly, and theyre already in range. Or step back slightly and be out of range. There is no way for the thief to do any damage without taking a lot *more* damage in return. Now sure, when the DE is about to lose the 1v1 (not if, its a certainty), they will run, but not losing is not winning either. In reality, whenever the DE tries to hit the necro, he will barely scratch the necro while taking massive damage themself. They cannot outsustain the necro, nor can they realistically kite them. Its literally a 0% win rate match for the DE. At most they can achieve a draw. If they dont run away, they lose 100% of the time. > > > > > > Again it’s literally the same deal even if your only talking about the first season, there was a bunker core necro yeah your right but it also didn’t do damage and wouldn’t 1v2. It was good for being very tanky as well as having a strong rez tool just like scourge and it was also completely irrelevant in the 1v1 scene and would never be able to kill a deadeye 1v1- the best it would do would not die since it was stacking a whole lot more power damage mitigation. > > > > "It also didn't do damage". Yknow if you were gonna talk about a period of the game you were clearly unfamiliar with, it would've done you well to research at least a little bit. It would've helped you avoid making a statement so wrong. And thats just for core necro, whereas reaper just completely demolished. A deadeye could never, under *any* circumstances win a 1v1 against Necro. The best it could do is not die. But thats by running away. If confined into a small arena (like the 2v2 gamemode did), Deadeye couldn't run away, and as a result would always die. Thats a large part of why it was even worse than the already unplayable thief in 2v2. > > > > I mean lets ignore precedent, and just talk about merits. How exactly do you think Deadeye would win? It cant outrange necro. It has worse sustain, worse survivability and worse damage. It has worse CC, worse utility, worse conditions (obviously) and much more avoidable damage. Its better at running away, but again, not losing is not winning either. Where is the magical method the theif uses to win? > > Imagine talking about “period of the game I’m unfamiliar with” when literally you are referencing a thing from another period of the game that is also a completely different build and meta as to the one you are talking about. Also you were clearly out skilled by a player who achieved a higher rank(than you’ve probably ever been) on a build you think is a meme. Youre the one who, inexplicably, referenced that period of the game. Despite not knowing that period of the game at all. Im just baffled you keep talking about things you dont know despite having a successful prediction rate of 0%, and pretty poor rate of correctly identifying what is, and isnt strong. And no, but I guess if you have no argument (because you know you're wrong), you have to resort to ad hominem. I only saw DE as enemies in those 2v2 seasons. They were free wins. I did not lose a single one, not even the one time my ally DCd for half the match. > But considering all that you still think I’m unfamiliar with the game how about you try to 1v1 me on anything- I am pretty confident in my 1v1 skills and my mutilclass skills and would gladly take even the “best player” on the “best build” on anytime during ats with the win on the line. Considering *what*? You havent said a single thing of substance.

> @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Lurana.7506" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Lurana.7506" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stealth thief builds didn’t specifically get nerfed, but I think it’s more likely for sw/d build to take thief place- ie deadeye and s/d daredevil. These builds can sometimes win 1v1s and can snowball team fights where things like dhs and power revs might be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would you play a poor duelist who performs even worse in teamfights? Thiefs purpose hasnt changed, its still a decap and +1 bot. And there is nothing that made D/P specifically worse at that than other builds (And Deadeye is not going to work as long as projectile destruction and reflect is as abundant as it is, and DJ is as unhittable as it is). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You wouldn’t play a poor duelist- you would be playing a build that hard counters dh and power revs that has much improved mobility from d/p builds that can not only 1v1 better than other s/d builds but do more damage- just how Sa dp would do at least as much damage as Da dp, but with much improved sustain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Youre playing thief. That means youre playing a poor duelist at best. How exactly do you intend to counter DH, who still has better damage, defense, CC and sustain? Youd still be a pure decap and +1 bot that avoids 1v1s like the plague, so there is no real advantage to D/P. Its not like you get more mobility because IA is still the best movement you have. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dh can 1v1 at least in ranked, but it’s not a 1v1 build. Keep in mind s/d daredevil is and has been possibly the best counter to these dh builds for multiple seasons at least according to multiple plat-legend guards and thief players. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean of course DH is not a 1v1 build. But Thief is not a 1v1 *class*. And when it comes to 1v1ing, DH still does a lot better. Thief is a counter in +1 scenarios, not 1v1 scenarios. And its good at that because it can rip crucial boons from DH, interrupt their high cast time valuable skills with ease, and mess them up with blinds. But, in a 1v1 scenario that doesnt save the thief. He still loses. There is a reason DH was fine in the 2v2 seasons (though not top tier) and thief was either the only, or one of the only two classes that were unplayable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well I play Daredevil and even though I'm not asking for 1v1 situations, I sometimes find myself in a duel. So I try and if it's obvious I'll loose, I go. But I very successfully duel Mesmers, Engi and Necros all the time. The other classes are more difficult to play against for me. But I can duel these three pretty well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean, I can win 1v1s as Deadeye against Guardians. That doesnt mean DE can 1v1 Guardians, it most definitely cannot, it just means that sometimes your level of play is significantly higher over your opponents skill level to the point where you win even a matchup you shouldnt win. Of the 3 you mention, thief can actually duel condi mesmer well because plasma is stupid. Engineer is basically a loss every time if the Engineer knows their way around their class (seriously I play Core Engineer, which is just a weaker Holo a lot of the time, and I dont lose to thieves), Necro depends on their build, but any Necro that you would encounter in a 1v1 is a Necro that is going to clap thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right, it depends a lot on the skill of the player. When a necro player and a thief player (current meta builds) with equal skill on their class fight a 1v1, the necro will win. But in reality, it's not that easy and e.g. roamer classes win against duelists all the time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you have trouble 1v1ing a necro as deadeye, than this equal match would be in his mmr which is like 500 less than any good players > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If its a necro that actually wants to 1v1? Yeah no, its going to absolutely clap deadeye. The necro would have to be *really* awful to lose that one. Just dodge the Death's Judgment and the Deadeye straight up wont have the damage to kill you. Meanwhile you can just crush them from afar, especially since Ghastly Claws tracks through stealth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah in silver teir I’m sure that’s the case because it’s an ez class. Duel an actually relevant De player on necro . A plat3+ De shouldn’t have trouble 1v1ing any necro in the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > Its the case anywhere, but I guess if you dont have an argument, false elitism is all you can go for, huh? But please, do explain how a class that cant kill the other one because their damage is literally too low, but can be killed pretty easily because their health is also too low *totally* wins the 1v1. Remember, one of these classes was arguably top tier in 2v2, due to its power in fighting even in a 1v2, the other class was literally unplayable. > > > > > > > > > > Ok I guess if u think u can 1v1 good Des like faeleth hitzer etc on necro good luck since I’ve never seen even the best necros in the game do it. Maybe it’s just fake elitism but I also remember A decent De named faeleth finishing the first 2v2 season with only 1 or 2 losses which is definitely near legend, so can I ask what rank u were in 2s on your op meta build while a De main could play it like a meta build. Geez what is up with ppl on forums as if I’m lying that the ppl who actually put their time into learning a class and play it at the highest level in pvp actually do good on it, what audacity > > > > > > > > And how many of those necros were 1v1 builds like, idk, reaper? I imagine none, if they actually managed to lose 1v1s to DE somehow. It most certainly is fake elitism. And while I cant say I remember Faeleth, if what you say is true, I have a guess as to who his duo partner was playing. Was it Necro? Of course it was. Guess even a bad build could be carried by Necro in the first season. But ask yourself why thief as a whole was considered unplayable in 2v2. > > > > > > > > Oh its not that youre lying, its just your track record is ... bad. You have made a lot of predictions and claims. In the entire 2 years since Ive seen you on this forum, Ive not seen you be right about those *once*. > > > > > > You say I am wrong, but you are wrong on many fronts in this argument. Faeleth streamed his games and he duo qd with a Mesmer. Doing good in 2s is not an indicator of a strong 1v1 build, but then again necro was not doing what u claimed in 2s, I played necro in legend on Na and Eu and this never happened- the best build was a scourge bunker build that could occasionally meme ppl during map mechanic , not win 1v2s and that build while it is not bad in some 1v1s can do literally nothing against a De- it’ll do no damage since deadeye can stand off node and it cannot kite or out sustain a deadeye forever. It’s literally a 100-0 losing match up to deadeye, so your proof of an op 1v1 necro is an even worse match up into deadeye than core which is like in low skill match ups 50-50 and high skill ones a losing 75-25 > > > > You said in the *first* season. I dont know if you forgot, or more likely, made this up on the fly and didnt make sure your made-up story was realistic, but the meta in the first 2v2 season was Core Necro (sometimes reaper, but it was weaker) with no scourge in sight, firebrand, and condi revenant. Core Necro in particular was infamous for its ability to 1v2, Firebrand was usually the support to go along with it. Condi Revenant had some other application, though I honestly dont remember what it was. If you cant even get that part of the story straight, Im pretty sure we can completely disregard the rest. > > > > "It'll do no damage", what the hell are you on about? If the DE doesnt 1v1 them, then the DE also wont be doing damage to them either. Were talking about an actual 1v1. Now lets ignore that DE shouldn't kneel in the first place because its bad and youre better off spamming 2 when unkneeled, even if the DE *did* kneel, the Necro would just have to step forward slightly, and theyre already in range. Or step back slightly and be out of range. There is no way for the thief to do any damage without taking a lot *more* damage in return. Now sure, when the DE is about to lose the 1v1 (not if, its a certainty), they will run, but not losing is not winning either. In reality, whenever the DE tries to hit the necro, he will barely scratch the necro while taking massive damage themself. They cannot outsustain the necro, nor can they realistically kite them. Its literally a 0% win rate match for the DE. At most they can achieve a draw. If they dont run away, they lose 100% of the time. > > Again it’s literally the same deal even if your only talking about the first season, there was a bunker core necro yeah your right but it also didn’t do damage and wouldn’t 1v2. It was good for being very tanky as well as having a strong rez tool just like scourge and it was also completely irrelevant in the 1v1 scene and would never be able to kill a deadeye 1v1- the best it would do would not die since it was stacking a whole lot more power damage mitigation. "It also didn't do damage". Yknow if you were gonna talk about a period of the game you were clearly unfamiliar with, it would've done you well to research at least a little bit. It would've helped you avoid making a statement so wrong. And thats just for core necro, whereas reaper just completely demolished. A deadeye could never, under *any* circumstances win a 1v1 against Necro. The best it could do is not die. But thats by running away. If confined into a small arena (like the 2v2 gamemode did), Deadeye couldn't run away, and as a result would always die. Thats a large part of why it was even worse than the already unplayable thief in 2v2. I mean lets ignore precedent, and just talk about merits. How exactly do you think Deadeye would win? It cant outrange necro. It has worse sustain, worse survivability and worse damage. It has worse CC, worse utility, worse conditions (obviously) and much more avoidable damage. Its better at running away, but again, not losing is not winning either. Where is the magical method the theif uses to win?

> @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > @"Lurana.7506" said: > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Lurana.7506" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stealth thief builds didn’t specifically get nerfed, but I think it’s more likely for sw/d build to take thief place- ie deadeye and s/d daredevil. These builds can sometimes win 1v1s and can snowball team fights where things like dhs and power revs might be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would you play a poor duelist who performs even worse in teamfights? Thiefs purpose hasnt changed, its still a decap and +1 bot. And there is nothing that made D/P specifically worse at that than other builds (And Deadeye is not going to work as long as projectile destruction and reflect is as abundant as it is, and DJ is as unhittable as it is). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You wouldn’t play a poor duelist- you would be playing a build that hard counters dh and power revs that has much improved mobility from d/p builds that can not only 1v1 better than other s/d builds but do more damage- just how Sa dp would do at least as much damage as Da dp, but with much improved sustain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Youre playing thief. That means youre playing a poor duelist at best. How exactly do you intend to counter DH, who still has better damage, defense, CC and sustain? Youd still be a pure decap and +1 bot that avoids 1v1s like the plague, so there is no real advantage to D/P. Its not like you get more mobility because IA is still the best movement you have. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dh can 1v1 at least in ranked, but it’s not a 1v1 build. Keep in mind s/d daredevil is and has been possibly the best counter to these dh builds for multiple seasons at least according to multiple plat-legend guards and thief players. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean of course DH is not a 1v1 build. But Thief is not a 1v1 *class*. And when it comes to 1v1ing, DH still does a lot better. Thief is a counter in +1 scenarios, not 1v1 scenarios. And its good at that because it can rip crucial boons from DH, interrupt their high cast time valuable skills with ease, and mess them up with blinds. But, in a 1v1 scenario that doesnt save the thief. He still loses. There is a reason DH was fine in the 2v2 seasons (though not top tier) and thief was either the only, or one of the only two classes that were unplayable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well I play Daredevil and even though I'm not asking for 1v1 situations, I sometimes find myself in a duel. So I try and if it's obvious I'll loose, I go. But I very successfully duel Mesmers, Engi and Necros all the time. The other classes are more difficult to play against for me. But I can duel these three pretty well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean, I can win 1v1s as Deadeye against Guardians. That doesnt mean DE can 1v1 Guardians, it most definitely cannot, it just means that sometimes your level of play is significantly higher over your opponents skill level to the point where you win even a matchup you shouldnt win. Of the 3 you mention, thief can actually duel condi mesmer well because plasma is stupid. Engineer is basically a loss every time if the Engineer knows their way around their class (seriously I play Core Engineer, which is just a weaker Holo a lot of the time, and I dont lose to thieves), Necro depends on their build, but any Necro that you would encounter in a 1v1 is a Necro that is going to clap thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right, it depends a lot on the skill of the player. When a necro player and a thief player (current meta builds) with equal skill on their class fight a 1v1, the necro will win. But in reality, it's not that easy and e.g. roamer classes win against duelists all the time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you have trouble 1v1ing a necro as deadeye, than this equal match would be in his mmr which is like 500 less than any good players > > > > > > > > > > > > If its a necro that actually wants to 1v1? Yeah no, its going to absolutely clap deadeye. The necro would have to be *really* awful to lose that one. Just dodge the Death's Judgment and the Deadeye straight up wont have the damage to kill you. Meanwhile you can just crush them from afar, especially since Ghastly Claws tracks through stealth. > > > > > > > > > > Yeah in silver teir I’m sure that’s the case because it’s an ez class. Duel an actually relevant De player on necro . A plat3+ De shouldn’t have trouble 1v1ing any necro in the game. > > > > > > > > Its the case anywhere, but I guess if you dont have an argument, false elitism is all you can go for, huh? But please, do explain how a class that cant kill the other one because their damage is literally too low, but can be killed pretty easily because their health is also too low *totally* wins the 1v1. Remember, one of these classes was arguably top tier in 2v2, due to its power in fighting even in a 1v2, the other class was literally unplayable. > > > > > > Ok I guess if u think u can 1v1 good Des like faeleth hitzer etc on necro good luck since I’ve never seen even the best necros in the game do it. Maybe it’s just fake elitism but I also remember A decent De named faeleth finishing the first 2v2 season with only 1 or 2 losses which is definitely near legend, so can I ask what rank u were in 2s on your op meta build while a De main could play it like a meta build. Geez what is up with ppl on forums as if I’m lying that the ppl who actually put their time into learning a class and play it at the highest level in pvp actually do good on it, what audacity > > > > And how many of those necros were 1v1 builds like, idk, reaper? I imagine none, if they actually managed to lose 1v1s to DE somehow. It most certainly is fake elitism. And while I cant say I remember Faeleth, if what you say is true, I have a guess as to who his duo partner was playing. Was it Necro? Of course it was. Guess even a bad build could be carried by Necro in the first season. But ask yourself why thief as a whole was considered unplayable in 2v2. > > > > Oh its not that youre lying, its just your track record is ... bad. You have made a lot of predictions and claims. In the entire 2 years since Ive seen you on this forum, Ive not seen you be right about those *once*. > > You say I am wrong, but you are wrong on many fronts in this argument. Faeleth streamed his games and he duo qd with a Mesmer. Doing good in 2s is not an indicator of a strong 1v1 build, but then again necro was not doing what u claimed in 2s, I played necro in legend on Na and Eu and this never happened- the best build was a scourge bunker build that could occasionally meme ppl during map mechanic , not win 1v2s and that build while it is not bad in some 1v1s can do literally nothing against a De- it’ll do no damage since deadeye can stand off node and it cannot kite or out sustain a deadeye forever. It’s literally a 100-0 losing match up to deadeye, so your proof of an op 1v1 necro is an even worse match up into deadeye than core which is like in low skill match ups 50-50 and high skill ones a losing 75-25 You said in the *first* season. I dont know if you forgot, or more likely, made this up on the fly and didnt make sure your made-up story was realistic, but the meta in the first 2v2 season was Core Necro (sometimes reaper, but it was weaker) with no scourge in sight, firebrand, and condi revenant. Core Necro in particular was infamous for its ability to 1v2, Firebrand was usually the support to go along with it. Condi Revenant had some other application, though I honestly dont remember what it was. If you cant even get that part of the story straight, Im pretty sure we can completely disregard the rest. "It'll do no damage", what the hell are you on about? If the DE doesnt 1v1 them, then the DE also wont be doing damage to them either. Were talking about an actual 1v1. Now lets ignore that DE shouldn't kneel in the first place because its bad and youre better off spamming 2 when unkneeled, even if the DE *did* kneel, the Necro would just have to step forward slightly, and theyre already in range. Or step back slightly and be out of range. There is no way for the thief to do any damage without taking a lot *more* damage in return. Now sure, when the DE is about to lose the 1v1 (not if, its a certainty), they will run, but not losing is not winning either. In reality, whenever the DE tries to hit the necro, he will barely scratch the necro while taking massive damage themself. They cannot outsustain the necro, nor can they realistically kite them. Its literally a 0% win rate match for the DE. At most they can achieve a draw. If they dont run away, they lose 100% of the time.

> @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > @"Lurana.7506" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Lurana.7506" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Stealth thief builds didn’t specifically get nerfed, but I think it’s more likely for sw/d build to take thief place- ie deadeye and s/d daredevil. These builds can sometimes win 1v1s and can snowball team fights where things like dhs and power revs might be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would you play a poor duelist who performs even worse in teamfights? Thiefs purpose hasnt changed, its still a decap and +1 bot. And there is nothing that made D/P specifically worse at that than other builds (And Deadeye is not going to work as long as projectile destruction and reflect is as abundant as it is, and DJ is as unhittable as it is). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You wouldn’t play a poor duelist- you would be playing a build that hard counters dh and power revs that has much improved mobility from d/p builds that can not only 1v1 better than other s/d builds but do more damage- just how Sa dp would do at least as much damage as Da dp, but with much improved sustain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Youre playing thief. That means youre playing a poor duelist at best. How exactly do you intend to counter DH, who still has better damage, defense, CC and sustain? Youd still be a pure decap and +1 bot that avoids 1v1s like the plague, so there is no real advantage to D/P. Its not like you get more mobility because IA is still the best movement you have. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dh can 1v1 at least in ranked, but it’s not a 1v1 build. Keep in mind s/d daredevil is and has been possibly the best counter to these dh builds for multiple seasons at least according to multiple plat-legend guards and thief players. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean of course DH is not a 1v1 build. But Thief is not a 1v1 *class*. And when it comes to 1v1ing, DH still does a lot better. Thief is a counter in +1 scenarios, not 1v1 scenarios. And its good at that because it can rip crucial boons from DH, interrupt their high cast time valuable skills with ease, and mess them up with blinds. But, in a 1v1 scenario that doesnt save the thief. He still loses. There is a reason DH was fine in the 2v2 seasons (though not top tier) and thief was either the only, or one of the only two classes that were unplayable. > > > > > > > > > > > > Well I play Daredevil and even though I'm not asking for 1v1 situations, I sometimes find myself in a duel. So I try and if it's obvious I'll loose, I go. But I very successfully duel Mesmers, Engi and Necros all the time. The other classes are more difficult to play against for me. But I can duel these three pretty well. > > > > > > > > > > I mean, I can win 1v1s as Deadeye against Guardians. That doesnt mean DE can 1v1 Guardians, it most definitely cannot, it just means that sometimes your level of play is significantly higher over your opponents skill level to the point where you win even a matchup you shouldnt win. Of the 3 you mention, thief can actually duel condi mesmer well because plasma is stupid. Engineer is basically a loss every time if the Engineer knows their way around their class (seriously I play Core Engineer, which is just a weaker Holo a lot of the time, and I dont lose to thieves), Necro depends on their build, but any Necro that you would encounter in a 1v1 is a Necro that is going to clap thief. > > > > > > > > You're right, it depends a lot on the skill of the player. When a necro player and a thief player (current meta builds) with equal skill on their class fight a 1v1, the necro will win. But in reality, it's not that easy and e.g. roamer classes win against duelists all the time. > > > > > > If you have trouble 1v1ing a necro as deadeye, than this equal match would be in his mmr which is like 500 less than any good players > > > > If its a necro that actually wants to 1v1? Yeah no, its going to absolutely clap deadeye. The necro would have to be *really* awful to lose that one. Just dodge the Death's Judgment and the Deadeye straight up wont have the damage to kill you. Meanwhile you can just crush them from afar, especially since Ghastly Claws tracks through stealth. > > Yeah in silver teir I’m sure that’s the case because it’s an ez class. Duel an actually relevant De player on necro . A plat3+ De shouldn’t have trouble 1v1ing any necro in the game. Its the case anywhere, but I guess if you dont have an argument, false elitism is all you can go for, huh? But please, do explain how a class that cant kill the other one because their damage is literally too low, but can be killed pretty easily because their health is also too low *totally* wins the 1v1. Remember, one of these classes was arguably top tier in 2v2, due to its power in fighting even in a 1v2, the other class was literally unplayable.

> @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > @"Lurana.7506" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Lurana.7506" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > Stealth thief builds didn’t specifically get nerfed, but I think it’s more likely for sw/d build to take thief place- ie deadeye and s/d daredevil. These builds can sometimes win 1v1s and can snowball team fights where things like dhs and power revs might be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would you play a poor duelist who performs even worse in teamfights? Thiefs purpose hasnt changed, its still a decap and +1 bot. And there is nothing that made D/P specifically worse at that than other builds (And Deadeye is not going to work as long as projectile destruction and reflect is as abundant as it is, and DJ is as unhittable as it is). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You wouldn’t play a poor duelist- you would be playing a build that hard counters dh and power revs that has much improved mobility from d/p builds that can not only 1v1 better than other s/d builds but do more damage- just how Sa dp would do at least as much damage as Da dp, but with much improved sustain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Youre playing thief. That means youre playing a poor duelist at best. How exactly do you intend to counter DH, who still has better damage, defense, CC and sustain? Youd still be a pure decap and +1 bot that avoids 1v1s like the plague, so there is no real advantage to D/P. Its not like you get more mobility because IA is still the best movement you have. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dh can 1v1 at least in ranked, but it’s not a 1v1 build. Keep in mind s/d daredevil is and has been possibly the best counter to these dh builds for multiple seasons at least according to multiple plat-legend guards and thief players. > > > > > > > > > > I mean of course DH is not a 1v1 build. But Thief is not a 1v1 *class*. And when it comes to 1v1ing, DH still does a lot better. Thief is a counter in +1 scenarios, not 1v1 scenarios. And its good at that because it can rip crucial boons from DH, interrupt their high cast time valuable skills with ease, and mess them up with blinds. But, in a 1v1 scenario that doesnt save the thief. He still loses. There is a reason DH was fine in the 2v2 seasons (though not top tier) and thief was either the only, or one of the only two classes that were unplayable. > > > > > > > > Well I play Daredevil and even though I'm not asking for 1v1 situations, I sometimes find myself in a duel. So I try and if it's obvious I'll loose, I go. But I very successfully duel Mesmers, Engi and Necros all the time. The other classes are more difficult to play against for me. But I can duel these three pretty well. > > > > > > I mean, I can win 1v1s as Deadeye against Guardians. That doesnt mean DE can 1v1 Guardians, it most definitely cannot, it just means that sometimes your level of play is significantly higher over your opponents skill level to the point where you win even a matchup you shouldnt win. Of the 3 you mention, thief can actually duel condi mesmer well because plasma is stupid. Engineer is basically a loss every time if the Engineer knows their way around their class (seriously I play Core Engineer, which is just a weaker Holo a lot of the time, and I dont lose to thieves), Necro depends on their build, but any Necro that you would encounter in a 1v1 is a Necro that is going to clap thief. > > > > You're right, it depends a lot on the skill of the player. When a necro player and a thief player (current meta builds) with equal skill on their class fight a 1v1, the necro will win. But in reality, it's not that easy and e.g. roamer classes win against duelists all the time. > > If you have trouble 1v1ing a necro as deadeye, than this equal match would be in his mmr which is like 500 less than any good players If its a necro that actually wants to 1v1? Yeah no, its going to absolutely clap deadeye. The necro would have to be *really* awful to lose that one. Just dodge the Death's Judgment and the Deadeye straight up wont have the damage to kill you. Meanwhile you can just crush them from afar, especially since Ghastly Claws tracks through stealth.

> @"Jekkt.6045" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Jekkt.6045" said: > > > just because core engi is bad and scrapper mediocre doesn't mean nades were fine on those specs. obviously core engi with rifle sucked when i played it and the defense was horrible, but i could still basically oneshot people with a 10k nade barrage.. (this was before nerfs) > > > > > > > Except, *by definition*, if the specs arent broken with it, it is fine on them. I would argue Spellbreakers CC is kinda ludicrous compared to other classes. But Spellbreaker isnt broken with them, so theyre fine. > > > > > nades were problematic no matter which spec ran it. just because engi sucks doesn't mean you don't have to nerf unhealthy skills. sooner or later nade kit would have been nerfed anyway. > > > > > > > They werent. And no, it wouldn't have. Remember, the kit wasnt even so much as played before the february patch. Or even after, for a while. Nerf Holo, and Grenade Kit would've been left untouched until powerdip reached low enough for core engineer to be an issue. But then again, powerdip is the biggest issue the game is facing anyway, so. > > it is absolutely possible for single skills or components of a class to be busted without making all builds of that class broken because they are very weak in other aspects. this was the case for engi and scrapper. engi has a very poor weapon choice and is quite vulnerable in melee range if you don't play tool kit. scrapper is kinda slow in applying damage and has longish defensive cooldowns on hammer. > Skills dont exist in a vacuum. If its only broken in combination with a broken spec, that spec is broken. Not the thing youre talking about. > nade kit allowed all but condi specs to burst real hard. yes, the builds per se were not broken because they were weak, doesn't mean nade kit wasn't unhealthy for the game. > Well, it allowed them to burst hard by power-dip standards, but those are really low to begin with. And no, that doesnt neccessarily mean that nade kit wasnt unhealthy. The fact that it wasnt unhealthy meant that it wasnt unhealthy. This is a kit that has been doing that for *years*. It only became a "problem" thanks to Holo after massive powerdip. And the issue there is powerdip. Not grenades. > it wasn't even nade kit alone but rather explosive traitline + might + the way you could apply your burst. > > in comes holo which handles engi's/scrapper's weaknesses way better and can slot the same burst. voila, you have yourself a broken spec. > Which means you hit Holo. Not Grenades. > what you say isn't wrong at all. engi and scrapper weren't broken with nades because they had a weakness you could exploit. this is more of a philosophical question about what's more healthy for the game. > > this is kinda like the old example of a build that kills everything in 1 hit but dies from 1 hit. is it balanced? maybe. is it healthy? no. > Yeah except that wasnt core grenade at all, was it? > now let's talk about the spellbreaker cc you mention. i assume your main problem with its cc is full counter, not dagger 3 or shield 4. it would be quite easy to increase the skill cap a bit on full counter by making the counter window shorter so you have to time it better on warrior. I would've said bull rush actually.

> @"Jekkt.6045" said: > just because core engi is bad and scrapper mediocre doesn't mean nades were fine on those specs. obviously core engi with rifle sucked when i played it and the defense was horrible, but i could still basically oneshot people with a 10k nade barrage.. (this was before nerfs) > Except, *by definition*, if the specs arent broken with it, it is fine on them. I would argue Spellbreakers CC is kinda ludicrous compared to other classes. But Spellbreaker isnt broken with them, so theyre fine. > nades were problematic no matter which spec ran it. just because engi sucks doesn't mean you don't have to nerf unhealthy skills. sooner or later nade kit would have been nerfed anyway. > They werent. And no, it wouldn't have. Remember, the kit wasnt even so much as played before the february patch. Or even after, for a while. Nerf Holo, and Grenade Kit would've been left untouched until powerdip reached low enough for core engineer to be an issue. But then again, powerdip is the biggest issue the game is facing anyway, so.

As their balancing got worse and worse, defending it became harder. So they just decided to not communicate.

> @"Yasai.3549" said: > > @"Fueki.4753" said: > > > @"Yasai.3549" said: > > > Even with Grenade nerfs, Holo still vastly outperforms a good majority of builds. > > How about Arenanet tackles the actual problem, which is Holosmith, **not Core Engineer,** instead? > > After all, the over-performance comes out of that one traitline. > > Yea I get that people don't want Core touched, but Explosives is literally carrying the entire Engi Profession right now : it's just too good. > Scrapper is also just as bad as Holo when it comes to abusing Nades. > > If people really want Core Engi to be better, then start asking for Tools buffs or rework. > One thing which Core Engi has which isn't kitten like Holo and Scrapper is having a fully unrestricted Toolbelt, counting its Toolbelt Elite. > > Tools could use a significant rework to its traits so that it has more uses than just the passive traits. > For one, Static Discharge is still a load of hot garbage when it comes to its targeting. > Power Wrench is too specific to only Tool-Kit which is useless in general besides like 3 skills. > > Streamlined Kit effects are too weak compared to how strong Lock On is, because Engis can benefit way more from the Vuln application than any of the other effects from Streamlined Kit. > Takedown Round makes no sense existing on Tools tbh, it feels more like an Explosives Trait, and again, its usefulness is extremely limited being a damage only skill which only procs when the target is above 50% hp. > > Adrenal Implant : I have no idea why this thing is a GM Major. This is basically the same as Rev/Ranger's trait Minor but it's taking up a Major slot, on the GM tier. > Sure, it's 2x stronger, but it shouldn't really take a GM Major slot. > > Wanting Core to be strong is fine, but if Core, and by extension the entire Engi family is being carried by Explosives in their performance, it's obvious then that Explosives is way too strong. > The problem is that that wouldnt actually make Core Engineer playable. Core Engineer has an inherent flaw where its weapons are *garbage*. By design, theyre meant to be utility. Youre meant to use your utilities, i.e. primarily kits, for damage. If you nerf every half-way playable kit into oblivion, like Grenade Kit just was, then core engineer has no good weapon to use. Buffing Tools is not going to change that. And no, Explosives isnt the issue. Every thief is "carried" by Trickery. Every guardian is "carried" by virtues. There is usually one amazing traitline that every version of the class plays. Explosives is that traitline for engineer. Kinda always has been.

> @"Lurana.7506" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > Stealth thief builds didn’t specifically get nerfed, but I think it’s more likely for sw/d build to take thief place- ie deadeye and s/d daredevil. These builds can sometimes win 1v1s and can snowball team fights where things like dhs and power revs might be. > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would you play a poor duelist who performs even worse in teamfights? Thiefs purpose hasnt changed, its still a decap and +1 bot. And there is nothing that made D/P specifically worse at that than other builds (And Deadeye is not going to work as long as projectile destruction and reflect is as abundant as it is, and DJ is as unhittable as it is). > > > > > > > > > > You wouldn’t play a poor duelist- you would be playing a build that hard counters dh and power revs that has much improved mobility from d/p builds that can not only 1v1 better than other s/d builds but do more damage- just how Sa dp would do at least as much damage as Da dp, but with much improved sustain > > > > > > > > Youre playing thief. That means youre playing a poor duelist at best. How exactly do you intend to counter DH, who still has better damage, defense, CC and sustain? Youd still be a pure decap and +1 bot that avoids 1v1s like the plague, so there is no real advantage to D/P. Its not like you get more mobility because IA is still the best movement you have. > > > > > > Dh can 1v1 at least in ranked, but it’s not a 1v1 build. Keep in mind s/d daredevil is and has been possibly the best counter to these dh builds for multiple seasons at least according to multiple plat-legend guards and thief players. > > > > I mean of course DH is not a 1v1 build. But Thief is not a 1v1 *class*. And when it comes to 1v1ing, DH still does a lot better. Thief is a counter in +1 scenarios, not 1v1 scenarios. And its good at that because it can rip crucial boons from DH, interrupt their high cast time valuable skills with ease, and mess them up with blinds. But, in a 1v1 scenario that doesnt save the thief. He still loses. There is a reason DH was fine in the 2v2 seasons (though not top tier) and thief was either the only, or one of the only two classes that were unplayable. > > Well I play Daredevil and even though I'm not asking for 1v1 situations, I sometimes find myself in a duel. So I try and if it's obvious I'll loose, I go. But I very successfully duel Mesmers, Engi and Necros all the time. The other classes are more difficult to play against for me. But I can duel these three pretty well. I mean, I can win 1v1s as Deadeye against Guardians. That doesnt mean DE can 1v1 Guardians, it most definitely cannot, it just means that sometimes your level of play is significantly higher over your opponents skill level to the point where you win even a matchup you shouldnt win. Of the 3 you mention, thief can actually duel condi mesmer well because plasma is stupid. Engineer is basically a loss every time if the Engineer knows their way around their class (seriously I play Core Engineer, which is just a weaker Holo a lot of the time, and I dont lose to thieves), Necro depends on their build, but any Necro that you would encounter in a 1v1 is a Necro that is going to clap thief.

> @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > > I literally don't get the baby rage with thief rn. There literally get stopped at every point no matter if it is their condi build or power build. Hell, I was even stomping them with dumb decap druid and that build isn't supposed to have much killing potential 1v1 ever. > > > > > > > Not surprising, thief has no 1v1 potential. Thats kinda the norm. > > > > > What is really the issue here with this class???? > > > > They move around the map faster than anyone else. So they can decap and +1 faster, and can dictate the pace of the game if their team is good. > > But I can do that on ranger. I basically have perma swiftness on ranger and can sprint after thieves that can +1, or try to rotate to other nodes to backcap. In fact, if I see a thief in the enemy team and I notice we have no roamer I often swap to core/druid just to make sure I make a thief's life a living nightmare for the whole match. > You can, but youre a lot slower, thanks to shortbow 5 and PvP maps being vertical. Though, at this point there is a non-0 chance that ranger is faster, which would just mean that thief is bad. But I think its unlikely. > So tell me again why thief is a problem? I'm not advocating for thief in any manner but, we can't say they are the best at something when Ranger has/had/ did take thief's job away from them when they have their ridiculously overpowered moments. Because theyre still just that much faster. Though, I dont neccessarily agree that theyre a problem.

> @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > I literally don't get the baby rage with thief rn. There literally get stopped at every point no matter if it is their condi build or power build. Hell, I was even stomping them with dumb decap druid and that build isn't supposed to have much killing potential 1v1 ever. > Not surprising, thief has no 1v1 potential. Thats kinda the norm. > What is really the issue here with this class???? They move around the map faster than anyone else. So they can decap and +1 faster, and can dictate the pace of the game if their team is good.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > @"Chris.2183" said: > > > > > > > > i mean cmon... > > > > > > > > 8 ini is just to much, just the fact that many, many points of ini disappear into nothing, because of "no vaild path", before u kinda had a chance of getting away, u would steal, dodge and could inf shot again. I have been playing thief in platin for years now, so i now a thing or two, i do realize that i have a major handycap in playing with action cam compared to the avarage player, so "nvp" is much more of a problem for me, but still if u are in a fight just putting a reflex inf shot to the side as a last way of getting out and nothing happens "nvp", your ini is gone and u are dead.... its just a great feeling and now you are telling me those events are going to multiply and be even more finite. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem here is that this fix is aimed at the meta dodge devil, but now it will be the only thing that can cope with the cost, because he does not depend as much on the sb as others. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DONT NERF THE WEAPONS, NERF THE TRAITS !!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because now u are even further forced to play meta, which i dont and never will, meaning now im playing something that is even more inferior to meta than it was before, which is great for diversity and even greater for gameplay.... not... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BTW: easy fix for the problem, take away the energie on signet of agility, because now u have to think and can not go full kitten in fights knowing u always have a extra dodge when u need it, changes the whole gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the fact that thief could kitten up their get away tool and still get away is the reason this nerf is in place, if I kitten up my blink I die as it should be, and hopefully thief will die on kitten ups one day > > > > > > > > > > > > After all this time ur still hating on thief lol too funny. > > > > > > > > > > had no reason to stop, there should never be a class that automatically loses you the game if you dont have it on a team > > > > > > > > Again......lol I kno the standard rogue archetype is hard to eccept for some and learning to fight them is difficult, in time u and noiwk will learn to fight them like the rest of us have :) gl on ur thief removal ventures though as I agree its definitely easier to complain and cry OP on forums constantly compared to leaning to face things, dont worry though u guys arnt alone as most of the gw2 player community agrees :) > > > > > > keep thinking that, yet thief will still be mandatory, maybe its you who should learn to play thief and know its potential huh ? > > > the fight that you think people get to "fight" thief already means you miss the point so there is no point in even talking about it > > > > I do well enough on thief and don't think it's a weak class at all, did I say that cuz don't remember doing so. I just think u guys dislike the class and are way exaggerating its "op'ness". Why is it I and a lot of players who don't play thief much or at all don't have these issues u guys have and don't view thief as some op god as u guys do? > > Thief is strong at what it does and that's decap +1 and reply's on a cheap and gimmicky playstyle that actually does require skill but cheap and gimmicky all the same and once u learn them they arnt this huge problem like u guys make them out to be. Honestly at this point in the game this really is a l2p or get gud situation. Just cuz u have troubles with a class or find its methods annoying or unfun does not make it automatically OP. > > Leo u play mesmer thee other class that uses cheap gimmick playstyle and skills and also happens to be countered by thief so... I see why'd be frustrated with the class but again it's normal for classes to have a couple counter within the roster. Noiwk I could be way off but u come off as a newer player who hasn't really played long enough to have learned all the ins and outs yet of each class. U also sound like warrior is ur preferred class and u having issues with thief on warrior probably has more to do with u not learning how to fight thief yet and the fact warrior is in a bad state right now wouldnt help ur situation either but still doesn't mean thief is OP. > > Im used to getting countered by thief and. I wouldnt mind if it took some effort. > but what pisses me off the most, when you get high ranked game, and the enemy has a thief and you dont, you lose. > Not only due to thief being super kitten good and needed in a team, but also due to the fact that the ONLY thing that can punish thief is another kitten thief. > Should have watched when helseth streamed inhouses, after a while they realized that whenever they make a team without thief, that team stands no chance and spoke about having thief main in each team and then building teams. I personally find that wrong, give thief another roles for all I care, as long as its not mandatory, and I will preech it no matter the class. EVERY class should be a choice, and not a must. > similar how warrior vs tempest as support is, both are good, warrior is slightly better now but you CAN switch it for tempest, there is no such thing with thief. Well, thats the hope with this change then. Maybe theyll nerf thieves mobility enough for other mobile classes (like warrior and ranger) to compete in PvPs vertical maps, in exchange for making thief an actually competent duelist again.

> @"DoomNexus.5324" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Armen.1483" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Armen.1483" said: > > > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > > > @"Armen.1483" said: > > > > > > > > @"Anomaly.7612" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Vavume.8065" said: > > > > > > > > > Escape/reset potential needed a nerf, I approve of the change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You realize this is the entire playstyle of Thief, right? Thief isn't a bruiser meant to stand there in a fight for long. They get in, do damage and get out. Now that's even harder. Basically just dunked on the basic Thief playstyle. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet has zero clue what they want to do with Thief. I'm sick of this kitten. I was already taking a break from the game and now I'm done. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All while Necro lich form saw no changes at all. What a joke. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean it's broken right ? When you play any non-support class you want to do the same. Get in do damage and get out. But other classes can't do that unpunished. If they get in, do their kill, it's nice. But if you get in and screw up and still get away with it ? Does it really sound fair to you ? It is not about the thief it is about any other class. If you are a guardian and you want to +1 some fight, do you want to get in there, do damage and stay forever ? Apart from some specific bunker classes, everyone class wantsto be able to do that, they don't because they can't. > > > > > > > I don't agree with you that cheesing the hell out of the blink mechanic is the "thief's basic playstyle". It is toxic for the game and it makes playing thief also kinda boring. Thief is just so much more than that. Now you actually gotta play thief how it is supposed to be played. You calculate your chances before engaging in a fight. It is how it should be, just deal with it. > > > > > > > I agree about the necro tho. It needs some nerfs too. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes when other classes can shake of 3x the dmg a thief can take. > > > > > > > > > > When a fight is happening just 4k damage from a +1 on a good moment can be enough to decide a fight, so having 10 times more damage won't help much either. And btw I can assure you as a mediocre thief player I can demolish 1vs1s with a thief, thief doesn't lack damage at all, especially if you go for a damage build :) It's been showcased so many times by actually good thief players. Because truth is people just don't know how to play thief, because without his broken mobility, it is actually a hard class to play. But with so much overtune it doesn't feel that way. Playing different thief builds after the last patch I still think that thief is in a good spot. I can feel the difference, but not as much as I thought. My experience might vary from yours, but it is what it is. > > > > > > > > Yes, you dont need much damage in a +1. Thats why thief is still good. And no, you cannot win *any* 1v1s as thief other than maybe Condi Mesmer (Plasma is op). Thieves are already using a max reliable damage build. Thief absolutely lacks damage. Whats been showcased is that if you set up scenarios where the damage doesnt matter, you can do a lot of damage. > > > > > > Dude you've been trolling those forums for too long. I ask you kindly get out of your box and think. If you have ever used offensive traits and utilities, you would notice that thief can actually have 100-0 oneshot builds. Thing is those builds use utilities and traitlines that are not META. As I have said earlier thief has better things to do than 1vs1 people randomly. If you still absolutely want to 1vs1 easily with thief you just gotta use those offmeta builds that are easily capable of doing that. Most of those builds are not always very known or played because they are strong in 1vs1ing, they are not as strong as meta ones in general. Take for example deadeye. Yes it is way worse than a core thief as a whole, but it is a simple solution to your problem. Easy to play and is designed to win 1vs1s if it is what you want. Necros causing you trouble ? Go deadeye. > > > > Oh I have done that for fun before. I noticed that thief, under no circumstances, can even get *close* to 100-0 oneshot builds. The most you could is do barely enough damage to 50% a squishy if you go all-in on damage. Of course, then you immediately lose all your damage and die. Let me let you in on a little secret: If such a build existed, it *would* be meta. But of course, it doesnt exist. There is no thief build that can 1v1. > > Dude what are you talking about? Have you even played thief aside from one match prior to writing this... I mean.. You really don't know all those secret off-meta builds that easily one-shot EVERY other class? > Let me tell you this secret then. It's actually a mechanic everyone in the game can use, however nobody benefits from it like thief does.. It's completely relies on some form of Preparation skill, however it's not labeled as such because you have to do it before joining a match! The mechanic in question is called "Character Select" and it allows you to reroll to an actually useful class that enables your true one-combo potential such as DH or Mesmer.. It's like a disguise you know, everybody knows thief can use stealth but it's a rare secret that we can also use mimicry to use other classes builds. You had me in the first half, ngl.

> @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > > > > > I don't know bout the rest of the stuff but I can assure u thief did far more damage in the past. Ur crazy 8k backstab was basically my low BS's and only required eagle and mauraders in conquest and in wvw a build built for power and just cs could do 14k on squishies. As we speak a cs/da/trick build with zerk and scholars now gets 8k or slightly more if u crit and opponent is squishy and meets hp criteria for executioner on top of might stolen. Couple yrs back that same build would give my 18k crits against squishies in conquest and 20k in wvw. > > > > That said I'm definitely not saying thiefs damage is low by any means in today's version of gw2 but to say it does same damage as in the past is wrong. > > > > > > You did not get those numbers pre trait rework. After HoT yes, 14k backstabs were a thing and after PoF 20k+, but that's not what i'm talking about. > > > > Haha oh I assure u post pof I certainly did. > > Core da/tric/cs with hidden data 213, tric 312 and cs 322 with scholars and zerk great in wvw often produced 20k crit backstabs when hitting squishies at half or lower hp and 16-18k at full hp :) 14k was doable with dd if u ran cs/zerk/scholar. Then damage nerfs kept coming in every patch, some where easily called like assassin sig, thief was still good at bursting. > > This feb patch was a complete disaster for all classes, even more so for some. Not suprising population in pvp is trash compared to yrs ago. > > This type of build you are talking about didn't exist pre trait rework. You probably didn't play back then, otherwise you would know what i'm talking about. No, but [this]( ) type of build did exist. And this was when stats were lower and damage was relatively stronger, so thats equivalent to *more* than that in todays terms. Still going to say that thief totally didnt do more damage before? Seriously, if you have 2 seperate people who actually played the class back then telling you that youre wrong, about a class you admitted yourself you dont really know, maybe consider the option that youre just wrong.

> @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > The thief and the other players arent very good. Of course he is able to enter and exit stealth more often than normal. But even with 4 might, thats a lot less damage. > > > > He is stealthing less than what most thieves would do. Could very easily get up to 10+ might. > No, he stealths more. Most thieves dont stealth in-combat if they can avoid it. And no, he couldnt, he is pretty limited by initiative. > > > > At 15%, not always, but 10+%? Usually. That with Flanking Strikes is 15%. It wasnt the reason Trickery was mandatory, no. But it was a lot of damage. Damage the thief was missing out on. > > > > > > Players were usually not running flanking strikes, because you'd have to give up more important stuff. > > > > > > > Quite a few were. Thrill of the crime wasnt as important back then, especially with the rune choices. > > Yea right, who needs fury and swiftness anyway ... Certainly not someone who wants to deal dmg and be mobile. Didnt you just show that crit strikes was played, which granted fury? Plus, I did say rune choices. There was a certain rune thieves used that gave fury and swiftness. > > > > > > > > > > Oh yeah, lesser haste used to be in CS not Trickery. You could be right. But then he is still missing DA, and all the damge from it. > But if he had DA he would be missing CS and all the dmg from it. So what then? Well, he couldve dropped SA and had both, for example. > > > > > Today you could run DA (with exe) + CS for more dmg, poison and immob, and a much better SA line as well as better base steal (45s cd, just lol). Or either DA or CS for similar dmg, a much better SA line and well, "mandatory" TR. Or drop SA as that wasn't really meta back then anyway and run DA,CS and TR. Lots of dmg. Or just go with the meta build which is much better than all of those - and takes a traitline that didn't even exist back then. > > > > You cant run CS. Its *bad*. It turns off way too easily. But even if you could, itd be *less* damage, *less* poison (more on this later) and *less* immob for no actual benefit. Also, Trickery was mandatory. Steal was never 45 second cd. And sure, you could run DA/CS/TR. It would still be a lot less damage. > > > > > > > > > > > Also you basically do get one additional traitline, because you get 4 more traits and many traits got merged or made baseline, so one current trait is worth more than a single trait back then, eg. you wouldn't get stealth on steal, cd reduction on deception skills, movement speed increase in stealth, initiative regen in stealth all in one build, let alone in addition to stealth on heal, the life steal, poison application and boonrip you can get now. Similar applies to other stuff, eg steal cd reduction or baseline range increase (on core) or unblockable steal (on daredevil). > > > > > > > > > > > > > On other classes? Maybe. For thief, the only skills that were combined were the ones noone ever used. Trickery is basically the same (moved the steal reduction from the stats you got, which is baseline, to a minor trait, which is baseline), DA was basically the same, and Daredevil isnt any of them. So no, not really. You get about half a trait. > > > > > > > DA had less dmg modifiers (max 15% ?), it was mainly run for panic strike. Now you can get exe, and still ~6-10% from exposed weakness (potentially more, especially in a +1 situation) on top of that juicy immob. Crit dmg from CS is more or less baseline now, you get more fury and additional modifiers/crit now. SA buffed/traits merged. Acro idk - guess it kinda got replaced by DD which offeres similar defense and more dmg. TR was always strong so not much reasons to buff it further. Still got some minor indirect buffs with steal cd reduction and range increase. > > > > > > > *WRONG*. DA had a lot more damage modifiers. It had 10% from exposed weakness, 5% from dagger training, 300 power from picking the traitline and if you really wanted more damage, vuln on crit. Plus of course mug. Now you get at most 4-6% from exposed weakness, dont get dagger training, and executioner, well, there is a reason improv was always picked over executioner. It only adds damage when it no longer matters. Crit strikes adds a lot less damage now. SA is the only one that improved. Acrobatics and TR got nerfed *hard*. > > Stats are baseline now. You can still get vuln (and might) from DA if you drop panic strike. Well, there is a reason executioner was a meta trait back then despite being in an - according to you - much worse traitline. So if the trait was worth picking back then and now there is another trait which is even better - how can both be worse than what you had back then? Logic nowhere to be found. No, some of them were partially baked into amulets, but still not 100%. If you used those stats well, you lost them. You can get vuln, yes, but its *after* your backstab, so no way to really capitalise it. Executioner was meta because in crit strikes (Which back then was fine) there wasnt much of a better grandmaster. It still wasnt great. Nowadays? There is a good grandmaster to pick instead. > TR did not get nerfed. It was nerfed hard. I dont know why you repeat a falsehood as if you expect it to magically become true. > > > > > > > DA/SA/TR can backstab the light golem for 6,8k, that's not counting the lifesteal dmg which would put it above 7k. DE can achive numbers above 10k. And that's when only looking at backstab. Other skills, eg. shadow shot, cluster bomb, heartseeker tend to hit harder compared to old times, because their dmg hasn't been nerfed so they get full benefits from stronger traits. Dmg is there if build for it and hitting squishy targets. > > > > > > > > > > > > > It cannot. I tried, but even on berserker scholar DA/SA/TR with a steal backstab 5.2k was the highest I could get. Hell, even pre-stacking Lead Attacks and steal backstabbing (completely unrealistic) I could only reach 6k. So I'll have to call bull on that one. DE is extremely unrealistic and can be disregarded. Also Shadow Shot got nerfed in its initiative cost. And its funny that you say "they get full benefits from stronger traits" even though thief traits are *weaker* now. Lead attacks? Nerfed. Mug? Nerfed. Thrill of the crime? Nerfed. Exposed Weakness? Nerfed in most situations. Oh and the second trait you can pick in DA is worse, because you cant pick a 5% damage up on daggers anymore. The damage isnt there. Because everything is a lot weaker. People already build for damage, and its just not much. Granted thief is still good, but thats not the point. > > > > > > > It can with executioner. And how did Lead attacks get nerfed? You are more likely to get 10%+ dmg out of it now. Mug only hits for slightly less - and can be used a little bit more often. You can now get both panic strike and executioner in one build as well as more modifiers overall. Thrill of crime did get buffed. SA buffed (a lot of "merged traits"). Steal and everything steal related indirectly buffed. DD is also an upgrade over core in many cases. > > > > > > > As stated above, there is a reason executioner wasnt being run. So that damage is basically not relevant. > > As stated there is a reason why executioner was used back then. Youself brought up a video showcasing executioner dmg against low health targets and pretending it would be the dmg thief were hitting regulary. The trait is exactly the same now as is was back then, there just happens to be even better stuff now that didn't exist back then, that's why it isn't taken anymore. Because there was no alternative. Which is no longer relevant. And yeah, the video did use executioner, though his damage was still higher without executioner. And as I said, the thief was still far below actual damage. The trait is the same as it was before, now it just has an actual alternative. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "There is nothing that thief could do back then that it can't do now better. Nothing. It was just not possible with the old trait system." This is completely opposite from the truth. In reality there is nothing thief can do now that it couldn't do better. Thief did more damage, was more survivable, had more utility, more CC, and even more sustain for the hell of it. So yeah, youre wrong. Sorry. > > > > > > > > > > > Then tell me where all those things came from? Where did the dmg, survivability, the utility, the cc and sustain come from and why does the vid you posted show nothing of it. I'm not a thief player, so please show me this infamous build that would mop the floor with current meta specs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean damage should be obvious. A suboptimal build using 30 points in SA does more damage than the optimal damage build right now with 3 offensive traitlines *despite* stats overall being lower. Survivability, well, you used to have better evades, more vigor uptime, a better feline grace, better mug, better utilities, better healing, I can go on. Utility, well, better utility skills and trickery traits. CC, Basilisk Venom used to be ridiculously much better. Sustain is the same as defense. The video shows *everything*. It shows a thief doing a lot more damage, while having more defenses (passive armour from SA) a lot more healing (Again, SA, you can see it tick for 300 per second), better CC (Even uses the tripwire, for some reason), better utility, etc. And again. Thats not a good thief. > > > > > > A suboptimal build taking SA and executioner deals about the same dmg then and now - but now you can also take TR in addition and SA is overall better. When building for maximum dmg (no SA neither then nor now) backstab and mug hit for about the same and overall dmg is higher. > > > > Completely incorrect. A suboptimal build taking SA before dealt a lot more damage than the optimal max damage build right now. When comparing the max damage builds between then and now, even if we ignore that CS is bad because it fails in realistic scenarios, right now the most you can get on backstab is like, 7k in the best scenario. In the old days? 10k+, easily. You did *way* more damage. Mug even moreso. Overall damage is a ***LOT*** lower now. > > > The highest i have ever been hit back then (in WvW!) was a 12k backstab and that was a one-time "all stars aligned" type of thing. 10k+ was extremely rare and only ever achieved by some signet meme builds. And that type of build can still get to those numbers. Considering backstab dmg itself got nerfed, there has to be more dmg from elsewhere. Hint: Don't look at SA. > Then you have not been playing at that point at all. 12k wasnt even particularly high. 10k+ was *common*, not extremely rare, and was achieved by the standard builds. That type of build *cannot* achieve that anymore. Also, Hint: SA is the best damage traitline you can pick. > > > Better evades how? Dash > Core dodge. DD also offers more evasion that core d/p had back then. Can take daggerstorm for evade now, not an option back then. Feline grace? Not used by d/p afaik. Ofc s/d has more evade than d/p. Don't mix up builds. > > > > For evasion Dash is worse. Because if you get crippled and try to dodge, you can kiss your endurance regeneration goodbye. DD doesnt offer any additional evasion to D/P. Daggerstorm, sure, but then you have no CC. But Withdraw had a much lower cooldown, Signet of agility was much better. > If you get immobilized and you try to dodge without dash - gl ... The mobility it offers also lets you get out of range of more skills with a single dodge, that's also some kind of "evasion". If it was bad it wouldn't be used. "What is withdraw" for 500. Immobilise wasnt an issue back then either. The mobility it offers is miniscule. Its good because it lets you move around the map and gain easy swiftness, but its *worse* for evasion. > > > > > Better utilities? Which? Shadow Step buffed, Blinding Powder buffed, Agility Signet removes more condis (at the cost of some endurance - but DD makes up for that), so overall better i guess as it wasn't used back then. Deceptions overall better, because now you can run cd reduction trait. Trickery was basically the same. Basi wasn't unblockable and didn't apply to allies, no life steal. > > > > Utility, not utility skills. Theyre different things. Basilisk Venom was unstunbreakable, and immobilised as well. It also stunned for longer. And otherwise, in terms of utility, thief now provides more of everything. > Unbreakability was removed shortly after release. Immob is long gone too. It never stunned for longer, there was just a time when you got 2 charges for 1s each, so technically you could get 2s of stun but most of the time the 2nd stun would just override the first one. Now you can get even longer cc chain with allies arround. But yes, thief now provides more of everything, finally we can agree. > It was, then it was returned, and then removed again in Q4 of 2013. Immob was removed in 2013 or 2014. It stunned for longer before, i.e. 1.5 seconds. You could use a trait to get 2 charges to stun for 3. You can cc chain *less* with allies around. And sorry, that was a typo. Theif now provides *less* of everything. > > > > > Passive armor got partially moved to gear. No dmg mitigation from DD traits. 45s cd on mug (now it would be 20s = double healing from that trait), less stealth = less healing from shadowy rejuvenation, despite higher heal per tick. No healing from life stealing. Garbage cc (tripwire was never worth a slot). Better utility? More like zero utility. No boonrip, no aoe basi venom, no unblockable cc, no aoe condi cleanse, less (aoe) stealth, less mobility. > > > > To gear thief doesnt use. So thats not there. Not sure what the second means. Trickery was still mandatory, so thats the wrong cooldown. Just as much stealth, not less. And ... wait are you comparing to *that* thief specifically? Yeah he was bad, and so was his build. You should compare it to a thief with an actually good build. He would have everything you mention, and better. > > Base armor is a bit higher now, doesn't need to run toughness gear. Or do you play naked? Would explain some stuff ... A *bit*. But not enough to make up for it. > And you brought up **that** thief and literally said "This thief would completely wipe the floor with a current thief". You keep talking about dmg modifiers from DA and CS, healing/stealth from SA and TR while completely ignoring that you couldn't get all those things in one build back then. Now you actually can. Oh he would, thats still true. But an even better thief would too. You could get everything you wanted back then. *Nothing* has changed there. > > > > > Indeed, that's not a good thief. A good thief back then would had a bit more dmg, but it would also have less survivability and still less utility (no daredevil and SA - both add a lot of survivability). If more dmg would be worth giving up SA and DD - thieves would do that now. Do they? > > > > > > > "A bit more damage"? Try "more than twice as much". More utility too. Survivability is the only thing you could argue it might have less (except the fact that old thief had more sustain, evade and blind probably means even that isnt true). Also, you *cant* get more damage by giving up SA and DD. Theyre the max damage traitlines. In fact ironically here you shoot yourself in the foot, because in terms of actual defense, DA is better than SA, because Mugs healing is still really good, as is the extra instant weakness and improv. But SA does more damage, so its being picked. So yeah, they do. > > > More than twice as much? Ok, please show me those 20+ backstabs with the old trait system. I'm waiting ... Or wait, i just linked a video above, showcasing an actually good thief build from back then, so how about you take this and point out all those big numbers? Because for some reasons i couldn't find those moments. > Why 20k+? Backstab hits for 4k-4.5k now, not 10k. So all the backstabs would need to hit for is 8-9k. Also, that video shows exactly *2* backstabs in total, and theyre both frontstabs. And uh, well [this]( ) speaks for itself, doesnt it? 8.7k backstab. No assassin's signet used. In general if you look at the video, you see damage that thieves nowadays can only *dream* of. 3k autoattacks. 5k 50% hp heartseekers. Yeah. > > > > > > > Defensive stats weren't really lower, especially when it comes to vitality, because you still had all those tanky amulets that got removed now. Overall survivability is still higher nowadays, because of boons, traits and skills. So those 6k in the vid would have been less vs todays meta builds (if you'd have even lived long enough to land any dmg). > > > > > > > > > > > > You had tanky amulets which werent used, yes. Thats not really relevant. Overall survivability is *lower* nowadays, but damage is too, so it seems like it might be higher. The 6k in that video would've been *more* vs todays meta builds (because offensive stats increased), and you wouldve had a much easier time living long enough to land damage. Like, if you put old thief in todays meta, it would probably win most 1v1s and crush current thief, full stop. > > > > > > > > > > Nobody was using amulets without defensive stats (as even zerk would provide vitality) and soldier, cele, cleric were pretty common too. That thief who got backstabbed for 6k had ~ 1,9k armor and no additional dmg mitigation, and that 6k backstab was an outlier in your video, not the norm. Todays thief has 10-30% dmg reduction, weakness, more cleanses, more boon rip, same or more boons, more poison, more stunbreaks, more mobility, more evasion, about as much blind, same or more cc, similar or more healing, ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > It was an outlier because he kept getting facestabs instead of backstabs. The lowest his backstab hit was 4.7k on a Cele Engineer though. You hit a lot less than 4.7k on a celestial build right now. If you look at the fronstabs though, a lot of them wouldve hit for 6.3k or even higher. So it wasnt an outlier at all. It was the norm. > > > > > > Defensive amulets were frowned upon in dueling so i doubt he was fighting many if any cele builds in that vid. Chances are high that most of his opponents were running zerk. Also he is backstabbing the warrior for 3,9k, frontstabbing the engi for 2k, that would be a 4k backstab. Most of the time he is just autoattacking because he does not have enough initiative to do much else and it only works because his opponents are absolute garbage. The only time he is getting noticeable higher dmg is against sub 50% health because of executioner. Take exe now and you get the same results - with an overall much better package. > > > > Engineer and Thief have the same defense. The damage however was far apart. The engineer was 100% picking Celestial, or some other toughness amulet. He was frontstabbing the warrior for 3.9k, and we saw the backstab on the engineer later (Also crit is more than 100%). And yes, the thief plays badly, but even so, he *always* gets noticably higher damage. Take executioner now ,and you get *worse* results with an overall much *worse* package. > > > 3,9k vs warrior are clearly from the back. There is no way he would backstab for 8k without exe modifier when you look at his overall dmg. And since exe is irrelevant anyway (your words), so should be his numbers against sub 50% hp. And then he caps out at slightly above 5k backstabs. With a proper build (that had way less survivability) that would have been arround 6k maybe. Totally "more than twice as much dmg" yes. > Oh, yeah, I guess youre right. Though, warrior likely uses armour as well. However, "With a proper build (that had way less survivability) that would have been arround 6k maybe." is the most stupid thing you have said so far. Yes, by increasing his damage by at least 40+%, he would only get ... 20% damage. Yeah that makes no sense. > I'll stop here now because you are just repeating the same delusional nonsense while ignoring facts and these walls of text are getting out of hand. No, youre stopping because youre quickly realising you have no ground to stand on. Youre the one ignoring facts.

> @"Armen.1483" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Armen.1483" said: > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > @"Armen.1483" said: > > > > > > @"Anomaly.7612" said: > > > > > > > @"Vavume.8065" said: > > > > > > > Escape/reset potential needed a nerf, I approve of the change. > > > > > > > > > > > > You realize this is the entire playstyle of Thief, right? Thief isn't a bruiser meant to stand there in a fight for long. They get in, do damage and get out. Now that's even harder. Basically just dunked on the basic Thief playstyle. > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet has zero clue what they want to do with Thief. I'm sick of this kitten. I was already taking a break from the game and now I'm done. > > > > > > > > > > > > All while Necro lich form saw no changes at all. What a joke. > > > > > > > > > > I mean it's broken right ? When you play any non-support class you want to do the same. Get in do damage and get out. But other classes can't do that unpunished. If they get in, do their kill, it's nice. But if you get in and screw up and still get away with it ? Does it really sound fair to you ? It is not about the thief it is about any other class. If you are a guardian and you want to +1 some fight, do you want to get in there, do damage and stay forever ? Apart from some specific bunker classes, everyone class wantsto be able to do that, they don't because they can't. > > > > > I don't agree with you that cheesing the hell out of the blink mechanic is the "thief's basic playstyle". It is toxic for the game and it makes playing thief also kinda boring. Thief is just so much more than that. Now you actually gotta play thief how it is supposed to be played. You calculate your chances before engaging in a fight. It is how it should be, just deal with it. > > > > > I agree about the necro tho. It needs some nerfs too. > > > > > > > > Yes when other classes can shake of 3x the dmg a thief can take. > > > > > > When a fight is happening just 4k damage from a +1 on a good moment can be enough to decide a fight, so having 10 times more damage won't help much either. And btw I can assure you as a mediocre thief player I can demolish 1vs1s with a thief, thief doesn't lack damage at all, especially if you go for a damage build :) It's been showcased so many times by actually good thief players. Because truth is people just don't know how to play thief, because without his broken mobility, it is actually a hard class to play. But with so much overtune it doesn't feel that way. Playing different thief builds after the last patch I still think that thief is in a good spot. I can feel the difference, but not as much as I thought. My experience might vary from yours, but it is what it is. > > > > Yes, you dont need much damage in a +1. Thats why thief is still good. And no, you cannot win *any* 1v1s as thief other than maybe Condi Mesmer (Plasma is op). Thieves are already using a max reliable damage build. Thief absolutely lacks damage. Whats been showcased is that if you set up scenarios where the damage doesnt matter, you can do a lot of damage. > > Dude you've been trolling those forums for too long. I ask you kindly get out of your box and think. If you have ever used offensive traits and utilities, you would notice that thief can actually have 100-0 oneshot builds. Thing is those builds use utilities and traitlines that are not META. As I have said earlier thief has better things to do than 1vs1 people randomly. If you still absolutely want to 1vs1 easily with thief you just gotta use those offmeta builds that are easily capable of doing that. Most of those builds are not always very known or played because they are strong in 1vs1ing, they are not as strong as meta ones in general. Take for example deadeye. Yes it is way worse than a core thief as a whole, but it is a simple solution to your problem. Easy to play and is designed to win 1vs1s if it is what you want. Necros causing you trouble ? Go deadeye. Oh I have done that for fun before. I noticed that thief, under no circumstances, can even get *close* to 100-0 oneshot builds. The most you could is do barely enough damage to 50% a squishy if you go all-in on damage. Of course, then you immediately lose all your damage and die. Let me let you in on a little secret: If such a build existed, it *would* be meta. But of course, it doesnt exist. There is no thief build that can 1v1. They arent known or played because they dont exist. Deadeye does not win *any* 1v1s, have you ever actually played deadeye? Its at best a teamfighting build to pick people off (which its bad at). > Btw if mesmer is the only class you can beat with a thief, you are just lacking experience on other classes if you play only thief. Countering mesmer as a thief is straightforeward, but for beating other classes you might need some minimal knowledge. Go play other classes to find out their weeknesses then come back to thief and use that in your advantage. Inaccurate. More accurately, Mesmer is the only class that, if I play it, I dont 100% of the time beat a thief of equal skill level on. If Im playing any other class? Yeah I win, no matter what. Thief is terrible. > I mostly play power core and I would engage and win 1vs1 fights with rangers, guardians, damage eles, condi renes, mesmers and ofc enemy thieves. I avoid fighting alone with necros, engis, warriors and the bunker builds in general. Remember still that there is no class that destroys all others. Everyone has his counters. Avoid ones that you are not supposed to beat with your class. In any match I always have at least 2 classes I can 1vs1 and win as a thief. That is what makes the builds like rifle deadeyes unviable, you don't actually need that with meta thief builds, you can still win some 1vs1s and have the good map control. But for weak thief players like you, that might be a solution. There is however a class that gets destroyed by all others. A class that cannot win any 1v1s by design. A class that is supposed to suck at anything but decapping and +1ing. Thief.

> @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stealth thief builds didn’t specifically get nerfed, but I think it’s more likely for sw/d build to take thief place- ie deadeye and s/d daredevil. These builds can sometimes win 1v1s and can snowball team fights where things like dhs and power revs might be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would you play a poor duelist who performs even worse in teamfights? Thiefs purpose hasnt changed, its still a decap and +1 bot. And there is nothing that made D/P specifically worse at that than other builds (And Deadeye is not going to work as long as projectile destruction and reflect is as abundant as it is, and DJ is as unhittable as it is). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You wouldn’t play a poor duelist- you would be playing a build that hard counters dh and power revs that has much improved mobility from d/p builds that can not only 1v1 better than other s/d builds but do more damage- just how Sa dp would do at least as much damage as Da dp, but with much improved sustain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Youre playing thief. That means youre playing a poor duelist at best. How exactly do you intend to counter DH, who still has better damage, defense, CC and sustain? Youd still be a pure decap and +1 bot that avoids 1v1s like the plague, so there is no real advantage to D/P. Its not like you get more mobility because IA is still the best movement you have. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dh can 1v1 at least in ranked, but it’s not a 1v1 build. Keep in mind s/d daredevil is and has been possibly the best counter to these dh builds for multiple seasons at least according to multiple plat-legend guards and thief players. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean of course DH is not a 1v1 build. But Thief is not a 1v1 *class*. And when it comes to 1v1ing, DH still does a lot better. Thief is a counter in +1 scenarios, not 1v1 scenarios. And its good at that because it can rip crucial boons from DH, interrupt their high cast time valuable skills with ease, and mess them up with blinds. But, in a 1v1 scenario that doesnt save the thief. He still loses. There is a reason DH was fine in the 2v2 seasons (though not top tier) and thief was either the only, or one of the only two classes that were unplayable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are you even talking about. It has nothing to do with what’ll be meta or played in ranked > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean if Im understanding your argument, youre saying that you want to play thief as a duelist, since +1-wise nothings actually changed for them. But thief is a poor duelist who doesnt win fights. So Im not sure why you think the builds would change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wow. Responding to the post with delusions- s/d thief is a roamer mostly. If you want a duelist rn on thief you’d be pretty out of lucky with anything but staff/staff or p/p condi which probably work op to plat or at least the best player I’ve seen on these type of builds gets plat2 on a good day with a good duo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then, why do you think thief would change his build from one roamer to another, without any of them getting better relative to the other? You are confusing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not that I’m gonna argue about it- but the endurance/mobility loss is very significant, dp thief’s could try to make up for it by changing to build to say the daredevil heal, but then they will severely lack in the stealth they need. Stealth builds are pigeonholed by this change meanwhile sd isn’t and makes up for the loses, so we will see a surge of s/d thief’s. Also deadeyes will see a huge rating inflation or at least for the few who main it, though based off our meta it will be unplayable in ats, where as an s/d thief can be played in that meta and you as an s/d thief will be a very nice pick up against the dh and rev surge we are gonna see making it a not bad choose at all meaningwhile dp at best will just completely fall- so I recommend thief mains who wanna be viable play s/d DrD over deadeye over d/p > > > > > > > > > > > > The endurance/mobility is just as significant for S/D though. Thats the thing. The nerf hits equally. Thats why neither of them is getting better compared to the other. So your suggestion doesnt really make any sense. Neither of them will increase their mobility because there isnt really much of a way, or reason, to do it. Theyll be the same as before, so youll use the same as before. And that means no DE, because DE is garbage, AT or regular queue. > > > > > > > > > > Wrong s/d has more shadow steps and more dodges, potentially much more and high vigor or in some cases trickster can all be put forward towards increasing mobility. S/d is not only good in this incoming meta but less impacted which I already explained clearly. Deadeye is already a monster in the right hands- which has been clearly demonstrated recently in ranked and even on stream by deadeyes literally spamming matches solo q and maintaining a rating well into top 10 consistently throughout the season and this will skyrocket after the changes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > It has more shadow steps and dodges in a combat situation. Not when actually moving around the map. Which is what is the actually important part. So its not less impacted by any sstretch of the imagination. And nah, Deadeye only works so long as it catches people off-guard, because its trivially easy to shut down. > > > > > > Dang more and more delusions. If your never in combat than you are bad at pvp- I’m done talking to you, it will never do anyone any good. > > > > Is this like your standard response to being called out for being wrong? Like, you made the same response when you seriously tried to argue thief would start switching to Acro S/D thief a while back (which didnt happen). Or S/P somewhere in, I wanna say April? (which didnt happen). Or Staff thief at some point (which, you guessed it, *didnt happen*). Oh and just to make it clear, the increased amount of shadowsteps dont help with mobility, which was your argument. > > Imagine claiming that I’m called out for being wrong. When everyone was clung onto s/p being meta I said that a x2 Da thief build would oust it and that miraculously became meta at the same time. When everyone was cling onto s/d and De being the meta after the February patch I said- no d/p is still good as a DrD. When ppl stopped playing as much s/d I said s/p and staff would be good memes for ranked and guess what that become an accepted “meme” in ranked and the ffa arena. Youve said that story a lot, but then I went back and check it, and you didnt. You only said that DA thief would oust it *after it had already happened*. Before that you were actually arguing *against* it. And before that, you were arguing against S/P thief. You've been wrong over and over and over. > If ppl don’t wanna swap off stealth builds rn that’s fine but I don’t see a reason to play myself as after the new patch it is underperforming and the second a new comp is found ppl will wanna stop playing it in mats and so far all the plat3-legend players I’ve talked to about the new meta haven’t included thief in their idea for comp, not to say it’s impossible though That just means thief might be weak (in which case this change was bad). It doesnt mean "oh just switch to S/D".

> @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > > > > > SA, trickery and dd aren't really dmg traitlines just because there is a little bit of dmg baked into them. DA and crit strikes are the main dmg traitlines. > > > > > > > > Theyre damage traitlines (well, more accurately SA and DD. Trickery is just mandatory) because you pick them for damage. You dont pick DA, because DD gives more damage. You dont pick Crit Strikes, because SA gives more reliable damage (seriously its so easy to lose all crit strikes modifiers). Those are the reasons crit strikes was *never* picked, and DA became replaced by DD respectively. > > > > > > How are those traitlines picked for dmg when you hit harder with other traitlines? Defense and utility is what those traitlines provide more than others, not dmg. > > > > Because you dont. DA actually does less damgage (thats why it was dropped), and CS only does more damage in theory. In praxis its damage modifiers are usually turned off, so you just do less damage in realistic scenarios going with CS. Why do you think SA was only picked once it *stopped* being a defense traitline, and why do you think DA was dropped for DD after its damage was lowered. > DA was never dropped for DD, d/p thieves were typically using both. It was dropped for SA and SA is probably taken now because it offers utility and defense even without having to camp stealth 24/7. But there is no way it offers more dmg than DA. ~600 dmg on a single strike from stealth does not make up for the loss of mug and modifiers from DA (executioner). Or CS for that matter, even if you don't always get the full value out of those. > > > > > Also CS definitely had some occurence in competitive play back then, not to mention various "oneshot" meme builds. "Never" is simply not true. > > > > It didnt. DA had mug and damage, so it was mandatory. Trickery was still Trickery, so it was mandatory. The most CS mightve gotten is used as the 10 point one. But thats not a full traitline use. > > > There was a time when 10/30/0/0/30 (known as "executioner build") was meta alongside of 30/0/10/0/30 ("panic strike build"). You can see an example [here]( ). Oh yeah, I kinda forgot about that part. Back when CS was like DA lite. Huh. Well, its not the CS as we know it now though. > > > > > > > > > Also ... > > > > > "_old Shadow Arts. A traitline that provided 0 damage_" It provided might and might = dmg. > > > > > > > > Oh yeah, it gave *1* stack of might when you enter stealth. Thats huge. Well, no, its practically nothing, but go ahead. > > > > > > > It would usually result in ~4 stacks which back then wasn't as irrelevant as it would be now. Ofc it is not much, but neither is the dmg you gain from SA now. > > > > > > > No it wouldnt? You wouldve had to enter and exit stealth 4 times for that to happen. The fight was *long* over by that point. And no, the damage you gain from SA is a lot for thief. Its a flat 600 damage or so, which on a class where backstab does 4000-4500 damage on its own is a whole lot. You get less from DA. > > I said 4 stacks, because that's what the thief in your video has almost all the time - and he doesn't even use stealth that much. It was 2 stacks for 15 seconds, so you could actually stack up quite some more. > The thief and the other players arent very good. Of course he is able to enter and exit stealth more often than normal. But even with 4 might, thats a lot less damage. > > At 15%, not always, but 10+%? Usually. That with Flanking Strikes is 15%. It wasnt the reason Trickery was mandatory, no. But it was a lot of damage. Damage the thief was missing out on. > > Players were usually not running flanking strikes, because you'd have to give up more important stuff. > Quite a few were. Thrill of the crime wasnt as important back then, especially with the rune choices. > > > > > > > > > "_just build crit strikes now" doesnt work, because that thief didnt use crit strikes either_" 1. you can take an additional traitline now that you couldn't back then. so you could take whatever you were running back then + crit strikes in addition, 2. Take DA instead of CS and you can still get 6k+ backstabs as of now on SA core thief. There is nothing that thief could do back then that it can't do now better. Nothing. It was just not possible with the old trait system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Uh, no. You can get a full traitline from what you used to pick as a 10 point one, but you dont get a full extra one. Or you did a 20/20/30 split. That one was popular too. Anyway, no, you dont just "get to add CS now". So thats off. "Take DA instead of CS" ... you dont use CS, A, and B, no you cant get 6k+ backstabs with DA. Youre lucky to get 5k ones with DA. And what exactly are you gonna replace? DD? Then you do *less* damage. Trickery? Its *mandatory*. SA? Well then you do slightly more damage against squishies, less against those who have armour, and lose utility. Yeah doesnt work. > > > > > > Where did the thief in the vid get fury from if not from CS? > > > > Good question, not a clue. We know he is 30 in Shadow Arts because he was using a Shadow Arts Grandmaster. He is 30 in DA as well. Maybe he is using 10 points of CS? I dont remember if the crit on hit one was a minor in CS. Probably was. Thats still not full CS. > > Pretty sure the thief in your video is actually running 30 in crit strikes. Furious Retaliation (that's where the fury is from)/Furious Haste (quickness)/Executioner. He can't run more than 10 in DA, because he does not apply weakness (2nd minor trait) and he obviously does not run acro or trickery. Oh yeah, lesser haste used to be in CS not Trickery. You could be right. But then he is still missing DA, and all the damge from it. > Today you could run DA (with exe) + CS for more dmg, poison and immob, and a much better SA line as well as better base steal (45s cd, just lol). Or either DA or CS for similar dmg, a much better SA line and well, "mandatory" TR. Or drop SA as that wasn't really meta back then anyway and run DA,CS and TR. Lots of dmg. Or just go with the meta build which is much better than all of those - and takes a traitline that didn't even exist back then. You cant run CS. Its *bad*. It turns off way too easily. But even if you could, itd be *less* damage, *less* poison (more on this later) and *less* immob for no actual benefit. Also, Trickery was mandatory. Steal was never 45 second cd. And sure, you could run DA/CS/TR. It would still be a lot less damage. > > > > > Also you basically do get one additional traitline, because you get 4 more traits and many traits got merged or made baseline, so one current trait is worth more than a single trait back then, eg. you wouldn't get stealth on steal, cd reduction on deception skills, movement speed increase in stealth, initiative regen in stealth all in one build, let alone in addition to stealth on heal, the life steal, poison application and boonrip you can get now. Similar applies to other stuff, eg steal cd reduction or baseline range increase (on core) or unblockable steal (on daredevil). > > > > > > > On other classes? Maybe. For thief, the only skills that were combined were the ones noone ever used. Trickery is basically the same (moved the steal reduction from the stats you got, which is baseline, to a minor trait, which is baseline), DA was basically the same, and Daredevil isnt any of them. So no, not really. You get about half a trait. > > > DA had less dmg modifiers (max 15% ?), it was mainly run for panic strike. Now you can get exe, and still ~6-10% from exposed weakness (potentially more, especially in a +1 situation) on top of that juicy immob. Crit dmg from CS is more or less baseline now, you get more fury and additional modifiers/crit now. SA buffed/traits merged. Acro idk - guess it kinda got replaced by DD which offeres similar defense and more dmg. TR was always strong so not much reasons to buff it further. Still got some minor indirect buffs with steal cd reduction and range increase. > *WRONG*. DA had a lot more damage modifiers. It had 10% from exposed weakness, 5% from dagger training, 300 power from picking the traitline and if you really wanted more damage, vuln on crit. Plus of course mug. Now you get at most 4-6% from exposed weakness, dont get dagger training, and executioner, well, there is a reason improv was always picked over executioner. It only adds damage when it no longer matters. Crit strikes adds a lot less damage now. SA is the only one that improved. Acrobatics and TR got nerfed *hard*. > > > DA/SA/TR can backstab the light golem for 6,8k, that's not counting the lifesteal dmg which would put it above 7k. DE can achive numbers above 10k. And that's when only looking at backstab. Other skills, eg. shadow shot, cluster bomb, heartseeker tend to hit harder compared to old times, because their dmg hasn't been nerfed so they get full benefits from stronger traits. Dmg is there if build for it and hitting squishy targets. > > > > > > > It cannot. I tried, but even on berserker scholar DA/SA/TR with a steal backstab 5.2k was the highest I could get. Hell, even pre-stacking Lead Attacks and steal backstabbing (completely unrealistic) I could only reach 6k. So I'll have to call bull on that one. DE is extremely unrealistic and can be disregarded. Also Shadow Shot got nerfed in its initiative cost. And its funny that you say "they get full benefits from stronger traits" even though thief traits are *weaker* now. Lead attacks? Nerfed. Mug? Nerfed. Thrill of the crime? Nerfed. Exposed Weakness? Nerfed in most situations. Oh and the second trait you can pick in DA is worse, because you cant pick a 5% damage up on daggers anymore. The damage isnt there. Because everything is a lot weaker. People already build for damage, and its just not much. Granted thief is still good, but thats not the point. > > > It can with executioner. And how did Lead attacks get nerfed? You are more likely to get 10%+ dmg out of it now. Mug only hits for slightly less - and can be used a little bit more often. You can now get both panic strike and executioner in one build as well as more modifiers overall. Thrill of crime did get buffed. SA buffed (a lot of "merged traits"). Steal and everything steal related indirectly buffed. DD is also an upgrade over core in many cases. > As stated above, there is a reason executioner wasnt being run. So that damage is basically not relevant. Plus even then it doesnt work without pre-stacking lead attacks, which is highly unrealistic. As for how lead attack got nerfed, simple. Initially it was an easy and free 10-15% damage boost. Then it was changed to be based on initiative spent. Now you had to choose between increasing your initial backstab burst, or having initiative to follow up after it. It was worse, but not *that* much worse. Then it was changed to only work in-combat. Now you get 0% on your burst, and only get the damage by the point at which ti doesnt matter. Mug hits for *half* as much. Thats not "slightly less". It also cant really be used more often. Executioner still isnt being run. You get *fewer* modifiers. Not more. **FEWER**. Thrill of the crime was buffed slightly, but TR as a whole got nerfed hard. SA is the only one that got actually buffed, and it was an unused traitline before. > > > > > > > > "There is nothing that thief could do back then that it can't do now better. Nothing. It was just not possible with the old trait system." This is completely opposite from the truth. In reality there is nothing thief can do now that it couldn't do better. Thief did more damage, was more survivable, had more utility, more CC, and even more sustain for the hell of it. So yeah, youre wrong. Sorry. > > > > > > > Then tell me where all those things came from? Where did the dmg, survivability, the utility, the cc and sustain come from and why does the vid you posted show nothing of it. I'm not a thief player, so please show me this infamous build that would mop the floor with current meta specs. > > > > > > > I mean damage should be obvious. A suboptimal build using 30 points in SA does more damage than the optimal damage build right now with 3 offensive traitlines *despite* stats overall being lower. Survivability, well, you used to have better evades, more vigor uptime, a better feline grace, better mug, better utilities, better healing, I can go on. Utility, well, better utility skills and trickery traits. CC, Basilisk Venom used to be ridiculously much better. Sustain is the same as defense. The video shows *everything*. It shows a thief doing a lot more damage, while having more defenses (passive armour from SA) a lot more healing (Again, SA, you can see it tick for 300 per second), better CC (Even uses the tripwire, for some reason), better utility, etc. And again. Thats not a good thief. > > A suboptimal build taking SA and executioner deals about the same dmg then and now - but now you can also take TR in addition and SA is overall better. When building for maximum dmg (no SA neither then nor now) backstab and mug hit for about the same and overall dmg is higher. Completely incorrect. A suboptimal build taking SA before dealt a lot more damage than the optimal max damage build right now. When comparing the max damage builds between then and now, even if we ignore that CS is bad because it fails in realistic scenarios, right now the most you can get on backstab is like, 7k in the best scenario. In the old days? 10k+, easily. You did *way* more damage. Mug even moreso. Overall damage is a ***LOT*** lower now. > Better evades how? Dash > Core dodge. DD also offers more evasion that core d/p had back then. Can take daggerstorm for evade now, not an option back then. Feline grace? Not used by d/p afaik. Ofc s/d has more evade than d/p. Don't mix up builds. For evasion Dash is worse. Because if you get crippled and try to dodge, you can kiss your endurance regeneration goodbye. DD doesnt offer any additional evasion to D/P. Daggerstorm, sure, but then you have no CC. But Withdraw had a much lower cooldown, Signet of agility was much better. > Better utilities? Which? Shadow Step buffed, Blinding Powder buffed, Agility Signet removes more condis (at the cost of some endurance - but DD makes up for that), so overall better i guess as it wasn't used back then. Deceptions overall better, because now you can run cd reduction trait. Trickery was basically the same. Basi wasn't unblockable and didn't apply to allies, no life steal. Utility, not utility skills. Theyre different things. Basilisk Venom was unstunbreakable, and immobilised as well. It also stunned for longer. And otherwise, in terms of utility, thief now provides more of everything. > Passive armor got partially moved to gear. No dmg mitigation from DD traits. 45s cd on mug (now it would be 20s = double healing from that trait), less stealth = less healing from shadowy rejuvenation, despite higher heal per tick. No healing from life stealing. Garbage cc (tripwire was never worth a slot). Better utility? More like zero utility. No boonrip, no aoe basi venom, no unblockable cc, no aoe condi cleanse, less (aoe) stealth, less mobility. To gear thief doesnt use. So thats not there. Not sure what the second means. Trickery was still mandatory, so thats the wrong cooldown. Just as much stealth, not less. And ... wait are you comparing to *that* thief specifically? Yeah he was bad, and so was his build. You should compare it to a thief with an actually good build. He would have everything you mention, and better. > Indeed, that's not a good thief. A good thief back then would had a bit more dmg, but it would also have less survivability and still less utility (no daredevil and SA - both add a lot of survivability). If more dmg would be worth giving up SA and DD - thieves would do that now. Do they? > "A bit more damage"? Try "more than twice as much". More utility too. Survivability is the only thing you could argue it might have less (except the fact that old thief had more sustain, evade and blind probably means even that isnt true). Also, you *cant* get more damage by giving up SA and DD. Theyre the max damage traitlines. In fact ironically here you shoot yourself in the foot, because in terms of actual defense, DA is better than SA, because Mugs healing is still really good, as is the extra instant weakness and improv. But SA does more damage, so its being picked. So yeah, they do. > > > > > Defensive stats weren't really lower, especially when it comes to vitality, because you still had all those tanky amulets that got removed now. Overall survivability is still higher nowadays, because of boons, traits and skills. So those 6k in the vid would have been less vs todays meta builds (if you'd have even lived long enough to land any dmg). > > > > > > > > You had tanky amulets which werent used, yes. Thats not really relevant. Overall survivability is *lower* nowadays, but damage is too, so it seems like it might be higher. The 6k in that video would've been *more* vs todays meta builds (because offensive stats increased), and you wouldve had a much easier time living long enough to land damage. Like, if you put old thief in todays meta, it would probably win most 1v1s and crush current thief, full stop. > > > > > > Nobody was using amulets without defensive stats (as even zerk would provide vitality) and soldier, cele, cleric were pretty common too. That thief who got backstabbed for 6k had ~ 1,9k armor and no additional dmg mitigation, and that 6k backstab was an outlier in your video, not the norm. Todays thief has 10-30% dmg reduction, weakness, more cleanses, more boon rip, same or more boons, more poison, more stunbreaks, more mobility, more evasion, about as much blind, same or more cc, similar or more healing, ... > > > > > > > It was an outlier because he kept getting facestabs instead of backstabs. The lowest his backstab hit was 4.7k on a Cele Engineer though. You hit a lot less than 4.7k on a celestial build right now. If you look at the fronstabs though, a lot of them wouldve hit for 6.3k or even higher. So it wasnt an outlier at all. It was the norm. > > Defensive amulets were frowned upon in dueling so i doubt he was fighting many if any cele builds in that vid. Chances are high that most of his opponents were running zerk. Also he is backstabbing the warrior for 3,9k, frontstabbing the engi for 2k, that would be a 4k backstab. Most of the time he is just autoattacking because he does not have enough initiative to do much else and it only works because his opponents are absolute garbage. The only time he is getting noticeable higher dmg is against sub 50% health because of executioner. Take exe now and you get the same results - with an overall much better package. Engineer and Thief have the same defense. The damage however was far apart. The engineer was 100% picking Celestial, or some other toughness amulet. He was frontstabbing the warrior for 3.9k, and we saw the backstab on the engineer later (Also crit is more than 100%). And yes, the thief plays badly, but even so, he *always* gets noticably higher damage. Take executioner now ,and you get *worse* results with an overall much *worse* package. > > > > Anyway, as for the rest, lets see. "10-30% damage reduction" yeah remember how I kept pointing out he had *30 points in SA*? Yeah that gave him 300 toughness, which is equivalent to a flat, unconditional 14% damage reduction. Oh but it gets worse. It *also* gave him 25% less damage taken in stealth. So yeah, he had more damage reduction. Couldve even had crit immunity if he went for a different grandmaster. "weakness", actually, that was nerfed. Used to be every time you applied poison, you applied weakness, with no cooldown. Now it has a 10 second cooldown. So less there as well. "More cleanses" yeah, I guess. Signet of Agility cleanses 2 more conditions. Thats the only change there is between them. "More boon rip", actually, *less*. Larcenous Strike got a lot worse in terms of boonripping. From a 4 initiative skill that rips two, at least 6 initiative to rip two. "more poison" a *lot* less actually. Choking gas used to apply 5 seconds of poison per tick. Now its 3. Also if you wanted to go full condi, dagger training. > > > Less dmg taken in stealth was a gm trait - couldn't take it in addition to the healing. Armor is partially baseline now, the rest does not compare to dmg reduction from DD. Weakness on poison got a 20s cd pretty early on. Also couldn't take it with full SA because you had to give up TR then. Crit immunity got added later (2017), don't think it existed before. d/p does not use larc. 2s more on choking does not make up for poison whenever attacking from stealth on a build with a ton of stealth. Application > duration, due to overabundance of cleanses. > Oh yeah, it was moved later. Which also means it was the 33% version. So if he took that, thatd be a lot better. Armour was baseline on defensive amulets, so not really. The rest *eclipses* damage reduction from DD. Weakness got a cd much later than you think (second half of 2013). And were comparing thief as a whole, not just D/P thief (because S/D thief is just better in every single way than current D/P thief, and was still the secondary build to D/P thief back then). 2s on choking gas *per tick* more than makes up for it. It *eclipses* it. > > "More stunbreaks" oh this one is funny. Once again, its a *lot* less stunbreaks. But the reason its a "lot" less rather than just less is stupid. Get this. Infiltrator's return *used to stunbreak*. Thats right, you could have a stunbreak ready for 2 initiative with sword pretty much always. Dumb isnt it? Anyway besides that its just that most of the stunbreaks used to have lower cooldown. "More mobility" once again its actually less. Another case of return nerfs, but also cooldown increases. Oh and IA now, but that one is too recent. "more evasion" oh boy. This one is *ludicrously* less. Feline Grace got obliterated, the initiative cost on flanking strike massively increased, cooldown on withdraw massively increased, Signet of agility doesnt restore nearly as much, yeesh Thief used to evade so much more. "about as much blind" yeah you may guess it. Its a lot less. Black Powder pulses less often, shadow shot costs more initiative, all that stuff. "same or more cc" less, actually. Basilisk used to stun for up to 3 seconds. Immobilise was way better. Etc.. "Similar or more healing" a *lot* less. Healing cooldown is up, effectiveness is down, passive healing is down, its so much worse. > > > Stunbreak on sword 2 got removed pretty early on. Also does not apply to d/p which you were talking about. The only stun break with lower cd was infiltrator signet,which was used offensively often anyway and lower cd on pretty much every other stunbreak and especially shadow step make more than up for this. A lot later than you would think. Also 2013. Were still talking about thief as a whole. And other stunbreaks did not get cd reduction. > And again you keep bringing up s/d even tho you were talking about d/p. 2 completely different builds. Dash adds a lot of mobility to d/p which it didn't had previously. Maybe s/d had better survivablity and mobility, but it also had lower dmg and were heavily relying on sigil procs. I know it was pretty op at some point, but most nerfs to it happened long ago. Hardly a good example for the overall power level back then. Also with acro + DD you probably still get similar defense with better offense. Because as said above, were comparing thief as a whole. S/D had better survivability, better mobility and *especially* higher damage. With acro + DD you get *way* worse defense with *way* worse offense. Dash barely adds mobility. > Pulsing blind from black powder was more relevant in PvE. Higher initiative cost on SS can be made up by initiative regen in stealth as well as shorter cd on blinding powder, as well as the higher dmg which makes it worth using. Don't remember basi stunning for 3s and wiki doesn't say anything about that either. I call bs on that one. Immob was way better ... against thief. Players - and especially thieves - were just weaker against it. The only heal cd that went up is withdraw, but it also used to heal for less and couldn't be traited. Only more passive healing when camping stealth 24/7. Current thief will most likely outsustain in actual combat because it has more/better access to stealth as well as life steal and heal on evade. > No, it was nerfed for PvP. Its basically irrelevant in PvE. Higher initiative cost *cant* be made up with that because, besides the fact that stealth pulses very slowly, *getting* stealth is costly to begin with. Blinding powder has the same cd. Damage is still lower. It was a build using double charges on basi when it had 1.5 seconds. It was surprisingly funny. Immob was better against everyone, though thief still had withdraw. Withdraws cd went up *40%*, even with traiting cdr and the extra healing ,its not nearly as good. Both versions dont have passive healing without stealth. Current thief will be *completely* outsustained thanks to withdraws lower cooldown. Also, old thief didnt have worse access to stealth. If anything it had better since initiative costs in general were lower. > Now i'm not a thief players, so i might not always be 100% accurate on every detail (still, most should be true), but when i look at my own class it is even clearer that old builds wouldn't stand the slightest chance against what is run today. Both defensively as well as offensively. Yeah, it shows. Because youre wrong on just about everything. Old thief would wipe the floor with new thief. Just to really illustrate it, a trash super-max damage build on thief, in an extremely unrealistic scenario where everything goes his way, would at most get 7k backstabs right now. An old actually meta build, in a realistic scenario, would easily get over 10k. Damage back then was so much higher it wasnt funny. And its not just thief. Cele ele from back then would crush Holo. Cele Burnbow would crush spellbreaker. Damage was just higher.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Armen.1483" said: > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > @"Armen.1483" said: > > > > > > @"Anomaly.7612" said: > > > > > > > @"Vavume.8065" said: > > > > > > > Escape/reset potential needed a nerf, I approve of the change. > > > > > > > > > > > > You realize this is the entire playstyle of Thief, right? Thief isn't a bruiser meant to stand there in a fight for long. They get in, do damage and get out. Now that's even harder. Basically just dunked on the basic Thief playstyle. > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet has zero clue what they want to do with Thief. I'm sick of this kitten. I was already taking a break from the game and now I'm done. > > > > > > > > > > > > All while Necro lich form saw no changes at all. What a joke. > > > > > > > > > > I mean it's broken right ? When you play any non-support class you want to do the same. Get in do damage and get out. But other classes can't do that unpunished. If they get in, do their kill, it's nice. But if you get in and screw up and still get away with it ? Does it really sound fair to you ? It is not about the thief it is about any other class. If you are a guardian and you want to +1 some fight, do you want to get in there, do damage and stay forever ? Apart from some specific bunker classes, everyone class wantsto be able to do that, they don't because they can't. > > > > > I don't agree with you that cheesing the hell out of the blink mechanic is the "thief's basic playstyle". It is toxic for the game and it makes playing thief also kinda boring. Thief is just so much more than that. Now you actually gotta play thief how it is supposed to be played. You calculate your chances before engaging in a fight. It is how it should be, just deal with it. > > > > > I agree about the necro tho. It needs some nerfs too. > > > > > > > > Yes when other classes can shake of 3x the dmg a thief can take. > > > > > > When a fight is happening just 4k damage from a +1 on a good moment can be enough to decide a fight, so having 10 times more damage won't help much either. And btw I can assure you as a mediocre thief player I can demolish 1vs1s with a thief, thief doesn't lack damage at all, especially if you go for a damage build :) It's been showcased so many times by actually good thief players. Because truth is people just don't know how to play thief, because without his broken mobility, it is actually a hard class to play. But with so much overtune it doesn't feel that way. Playing different thief builds after the last patch I still think that thief is in a good spot. I can feel the difference, but not as much as I thought. My experience might vary from yours, but it is what it is. > > > > Yes, you dont need much damage in a +1. Thats why thief is still good. And no, you cannot win *any* 1v1s as thief other than maybe Condi Mesmer (Plasma is op). Thieves are already using a max reliable damage build. Thief absolutely lacks damage. Whats been showcased is that if you set up scenarios where the damage doesnt matter, you can do a lot of damage. > > you had me untill " Thieves are already using a max reliable damage build " > not gonna lie, I laughed to that, have a thumbs up! > I have talked about this, but your ability to laugh at the simple, mundane truth is rather odd. Do you also laugh at the weather report?

> @"Armen.1483" said: > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > @"Armen.1483" said: > > > > @"Anomaly.7612" said: > > > > > @"Vavume.8065" said: > > > > > Escape/reset potential needed a nerf, I approve of the change. > > > > > > > > You realize this is the entire playstyle of Thief, right? Thief isn't a bruiser meant to stand there in a fight for long. They get in, do damage and get out. Now that's even harder. Basically just dunked on the basic Thief playstyle. > > > > > > > > Anet has zero clue what they want to do with Thief. I'm sick of this kitten. I was already taking a break from the game and now I'm done. > > > > > > > > All while Necro lich form saw no changes at all. What a joke. > > > > > > I mean it's broken right ? When you play any non-support class you want to do the same. Get in do damage and get out. But other classes can't do that unpunished. If they get in, do their kill, it's nice. But if you get in and screw up and still get away with it ? Does it really sound fair to you ? It is not about the thief it is about any other class. If you are a guardian and you want to +1 some fight, do you want to get in there, do damage and stay forever ? Apart from some specific bunker classes, everyone class wantsto be able to do that, they don't because they can't. > > > I don't agree with you that cheesing the hell out of the blink mechanic is the "thief's basic playstyle". It is toxic for the game and it makes playing thief also kinda boring. Thief is just so much more than that. Now you actually gotta play thief how it is supposed to be played. You calculate your chances before engaging in a fight. It is how it should be, just deal with it. > > > I agree about the necro tho. It needs some nerfs too. > > > > Yes when other classes can shake of 3x the dmg a thief can take. > > When a fight is happening just 4k damage from a +1 on a good moment can be enough to decide a fight, so having 10 times more damage won't help much either. And btw I can assure you as a mediocre thief player I can demolish 1vs1s with a thief, thief doesn't lack damage at all, especially if you go for a damage build :) It's been showcased so many times by actually good thief players. Because truth is people just don't know how to play thief, because without his broken mobility, it is actually a hard class to play. But with so much overtune it doesn't feel that way. Playing different thief builds after the last patch I still think that thief is in a good spot. I can feel the difference, but not as much as I thought. My experience might vary from yours, but it is what it is. Yes, you dont need much damage in a +1. Thats why thief is still good. And no, you cannot win *any* 1v1s as thief other than maybe Condi Mesmer (Plasma is op). Thieves are already using a max reliable damage build. Thief absolutely lacks damage. Whats been showcased is that if you set up scenarios where the damage doesnt matter, you can do a lot of damage.

> @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > > > SA, trickery and dd aren't really dmg traitlines just because there is a little bit of dmg baked into them. DA and crit strikes are the main dmg traitlines. > > > > Theyre damage traitlines (well, more accurately SA and DD. Trickery is just mandatory) because you pick them for damage. You dont pick DA, because DD gives more damage. You dont pick Crit Strikes, because SA gives more reliable damage (seriously its so easy to lose all crit strikes modifiers). Those are the reasons crit strikes was *never* picked, and DA became replaced by DD respectively. > > How are those traitlines picked for dmg when you hit harder with other traitlines? Defense and utility is what those traitlines provide more than others, not dmg. Because you dont. DA actually does less damgage (thats why it was dropped), and CS only does more damage in theory. In praxis its damage modifiers are usually turned off, so you just do less damage in realistic scenarios going with CS. Why do you think SA was only picked once it *stopped* being a defense traitline, and why do you think DA was dropped for DD after its damage was lowered. > Also CS definitely had some occurence in competitive play back then, not to mention various "oneshot" meme builds. "Never" is simply not true. It didnt. DA had mug and damage, so it was mandatory. Trickery was still Trickery, so it was mandatory. The most CS mightve gotten is used as the 10 point one. But thats not a full traitline use. > > > > > Also ... > > > "_old Shadow Arts. A traitline that provided 0 damage_" It provided might and might = dmg. > > > > Oh yeah, it gave *1* stack of might when you enter stealth. Thats huge. Well, no, its practically nothing, but go ahead. > > > It would usually result in ~4 stacks which back then wasn't as irrelevant as it would be now. Ofc it is not much, but neither is the dmg you gain from SA now. > No it wouldnt? You wouldve had to enter and exit stealth 4 times for that to happen. The fight was *long* over by that point. And no, the damage you gain from SA is a lot for thief. Its a flat 600 damage or so, which on a class where backstab does 4000-4500 damage on its own is a whole lot. You get less from DA. > > > "_Trickery for that sweet 15%_" Trickery didn't not had a dmg modifier back then > > > > *??????* Lead Attacks was a Trickery Minor Trait since day 1 of the game. It used to increase damage by 1% per initiative you had rather than spent, but it was still there. Also Flanking Strikes used to be Trickery, so its up to 20% actually. Seriously, I dont get how you could get *this one* wrong. > That's why i wrote "didn't not" > jk,i stand corrected on that one. Still how often would you be at full initiative to get the 15% bonus? Dmg was and is not the reason why TR is used. At 15%, not always, but 10+%? Usually. That with Flanking Strikes is 15%. It wasnt the reason Trickery was mandatory, no. But it was a lot of damage. Damage the thief was missing out on. > > > > > "_just build crit strikes now" doesnt work, because that thief didnt use crit strikes either_" 1. you can take an additional traitline now that you couldn't back then. so you could take whatever you were running back then + crit strikes in addition, 2. Take DA instead of CS and you can still get 6k+ backstabs as of now on SA core thief. There is nothing that thief could do back then that it can't do now better. Nothing. It was just not possible with the old trait system. > > > > > > > Uh, no. You can get a full traitline from what you used to pick as a 10 point one, but you dont get a full extra one. Or you did a 20/20/30 split. That one was popular too. Anyway, no, you dont just "get to add CS now". So thats off. "Take DA instead of CS" ... you dont use CS, A, and B, no you cant get 6k+ backstabs with DA. Youre lucky to get 5k ones with DA. And what exactly are you gonna replace? DD? Then you do *less* damage. Trickery? Its *mandatory*. SA? Well then you do slightly more damage against squishies, less against those who have armour, and lose utility. Yeah doesnt work. > > Where did the thief in the vid get fury from if not from CS? Good question, not a clue. We know he is 30 in Shadow Arts because he was using a Shadow Arts Grandmaster. He is 30 in DA as well. Maybe he is using 10 points of CS? I dont remember if the crit on hit one was a minor in CS. Probably was. Thats still not full CS. > Also you basically do get one additional traitline, because you get 4 more traits and many traits got merged or made baseline, so one current trait is worth more than a single trait back then, eg. you wouldn't get stealth on steal, cd reduction on deception skills, movement speed increase in stealth, initiative regen in stealth all in one build, let alone in addition to stealth on heal, the life steal, poison application and boonrip you can get now. Similar applies to other stuff, eg steal cd reduction or baseline range increase (on core) or unblockable steal (on daredevil). > On other classes? Maybe. For thief, the only skills that were combined were the ones noone ever used. Trickery is basically the same (moved the steal reduction from the stats you got, which is baseline, to a minor trait, which is baseline), DA was basically the same, and Daredevil isnt any of them. So no, not really. You get about half a trait. > DA/SA/TR can backstab the light golem for 6,8k, that's not counting the lifesteal dmg which would put it above 7k. DE can achive numbers above 10k. And that's when only looking at backstab. Other skills, eg. shadow shot, cluster bomb, heartseeker tend to hit harder compared to old times, because their dmg hasn't been nerfed so they get full benefits from stronger traits. Dmg is there if build for it and hitting squishy targets. > It cannot. I tried, but even on berserker scholar DA/SA/TR with a steal backstab 5.2k was the highest I could get. Hell, even pre-stacking Lead Attacks and steal backstabbing (completely unrealistic) I could only reach 6k. So I'll have to call bull on that one. DE is extremely unrealistic and can be disregarded. Also Shadow Shot got nerfed in its initiative cost. And its funny that you say "they get full benefits from stronger traits" even though thief traits are *weaker* now. Lead attacks? Nerfed. Mug? Nerfed. Thrill of the crime? Nerfed. Exposed Weakness? Nerfed in most situations. Oh and the second trait you can pick in DA is worse, because you cant pick a 5% damage up on daggers anymore. The damage isnt there. Because everything is a lot weaker. People already build for damage, and its just not much. Granted thief is still good, but thats not the point. > > > > "There is nothing that thief could do back then that it can't do now better. Nothing. It was just not possible with the old trait system." This is completely opposite from the truth. In reality there is nothing thief can do now that it couldn't do better. Thief did more damage, was more survivable, had more utility, more CC, and even more sustain for the hell of it. So yeah, youre wrong. Sorry. > > > Then tell me where all those things came from? Where did the dmg, survivability, the utility, the cc and sustain come from and why does the vid you posted show nothing of it. I'm not a thief player, so please show me this infamous build that would mop the floor with current meta specs. > I mean damage should be obvious. A suboptimal build using 30 points in SA does more damage than the optimal damage build right now with 3 offensive traitlines *despite* stats overall being lower. Survivability, well, you used to have better evades, more vigor uptime, a better feline grace, better mug, better utilities, better healing, I can go on. Utility, well, better utility skills and trickery traits. CC, Basilisk Venom used to be ridiculously much better. Sustain is the same as defense. The video shows *everything*. It shows a thief doing a lot more damage, while having more defenses (passive armour from SA) a lot more healing (Again, SA, you can see it tick for 300 per second), better CC (Even uses the tripwire, for some reason), better utility, etc. And again. Thats not a good thief. > > > Defensive stats weren't really lower, especially when it comes to vitality, because you still had all those tanky amulets that got removed now. Overall survivability is still higher nowadays, because of boons, traits and skills. So those 6k in the vid would have been less vs todays meta builds (if you'd have even lived long enough to land any dmg). > > > > You had tanky amulets which werent used, yes. Thats not really relevant. Overall survivability is *lower* nowadays, but damage is too, so it seems like it might be higher. The 6k in that video would've been *more* vs todays meta builds (because offensive stats increased), and you wouldve had a much easier time living long enough to land damage. Like, if you put old thief in todays meta, it would probably win most 1v1s and crush current thief, full stop. > > Nobody was using amulets without defensive stats (as even zerk would provide vitality) and soldier, cele, cleric were pretty common too. That thief who got backstabbed for 6k had ~ 1,9k armor and no additional dmg mitigation, and that 6k backstab was an outlier in your video, not the norm. Todays thief has 10-30% dmg reduction, weakness, more cleanses, more boon rip, same or more boons, more poison, more stunbreaks, more mobility, more evasion, about as much blind, same or more cc, similar or more healing, ... > It was an outlier because he kept getting facestabs instead of backstabs. The lowest his backstab hit was 4.7k on a Cele Engineer though. You hit a lot less than 4.7k on a celestial build right now. If you look at the fronstabs though, a lot of them wouldve hit for 6.3k or even higher. So it wasnt an outlier at all. It was the norm. Anyway, as for the rest, lets see. "10-30% damage reduction" yeah remember how I kept pointing out he had *30 points in SA*? Yeah that gave him 300 toughness, which is equivalent to a flat, unconditional 14% damage reduction. Oh but it gets worse. It *also* gave him 25% less damage taken in stealth. So yeah, he had more damage reduction. Couldve even had crit immunity if he went for a different grandmaster. "weakness", actually, that was nerfed. Used to be every time you applied poison, you applied weakness, with no cooldown. Now it has a 10 second cooldown. So less there as well. "More cleanses" yeah, I guess. Signet of Agility cleanses 2 more conditions. Thats the only change there is between them. "More boon rip", actually, *less*. Larcenous Strike got a lot worse in terms of boonripping. From a 4 initiative skill that rips two, at least 6 initiative to rip two. "more poison" a *lot* less actually. Choking gas used to apply 5 seconds of poison per tick. Now its 3. Also if you wanted to go full condi, dagger training. "More stunbreaks" oh this one is funny. Once again, its a *lot* less stunbreaks. But the reason its a "lot" less rather than just less is stupid. Get this. Infiltrator's return *used to stunbreak*. Thats right, you could have a stunbreak ready for 2 initiative with sword pretty much always. Dumb isnt it? Anyway besides that its just that most of the stunbreaks used to have lower cooldown. "More mobility" once again its actually less. Another case of return nerfs, but also cooldown increases. Oh and IA now, but that one is too recent. "more evasion" oh boy. This one is *ludicrously* less. Feline Grace got obliterated, the initiative cost on flanking strike massively increased, cooldown on withdraw massively increased, Signet of agility doesnt restore nearly as much, yeesh Thief used to evade so much more. "about as much blind" yeah you may guess it. Its a lot less. Black Powder pulses less often, shadow shot costs more initiative, all that stuff. "same or more cc" less, actually. Basilisk used to stun for up to 3 seconds. Immobilise was way better. Etc.. "Similar or more healing" a *lot* less. Healing cooldown is up, effectiveness is down, passive healing is down, its so much worse. So yeah, there you have it. Thief is a shadow of its former self. > Similar is true for every other class. Yes, though not what you said, but what I said.

> @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > SA, trickery and dd aren't really dmg traitlines just because there is a little bit of dmg baked into them. DA and crit strikes are the main dmg traitlines. Theyre damage traitlines (well, more accurately SA and DD. Trickery is just mandatory) because you pick them for damage. You dont pick DA, because DD gives more damage. You dont pick Crit Strikes, because SA gives more reliable damage (seriously its so easy to lose all crit strikes modifiers). Those are the reasons crit strikes was *never* picked, and DA became replaced by DD respectively. > Also ... > "_old Shadow Arts. A traitline that provided 0 damage_" It provided might and might = dmg. Oh yeah, it gave *1* stack of might when you enter stealth. Thats huge. Well, no, its practically nothing, but go ahead. > "_Trickery for that sweet 15%_" Trickery didn't not had a dmg modifier back then *??????* Lead Attacks was a Trickery Minor Trait since day 1 of the game. It used to increase damage by 1% per initiative you had rather than spent, but it was still there. Also Flanking Strikes used to be Trickery, so its up to 20% actually. Seriously, I dont get how you could get *this one* wrong. > "_just build crit strikes now" doesnt work, because that thief didnt use crit strikes either_" 1. you can take an additional traitline now that you couldn't back then. so you could take whatever you were running back then + crit strikes in addition, 2. Take DA instead of CS and you can still get 6k+ backstabs as of now on SA core thief. There is nothing that thief could do back then that it can't do now better. Nothing. It was just not possible with the old trait system. > Uh, no. You can get a full traitline from what you used to pick as a 10 point one, but you dont get a full extra one. Or you did a 20/20/30 split. That one was popular too. Anyway, no, you dont just "get to add CS now". So thats off. "Take DA instead of CS" ... you dont use CS, A, and B, no you cant get 6k+ backstabs with DA. Youre lucky to get 5k ones with DA. And what exactly are you gonna replace? DD? Then you do *less* damage. Trickery? Its *mandatory*. SA? Well then you do slightly more damage against squishies, less against those who have armour, and lose utility. Yeah doesnt work. "There is nothing that thief could do back then that it can't do now better. Nothing. It was just not possible with the old trait system." This is completely opposite from the truth. In reality there is nothing thief can do now that it couldn't do better. Thief did more damage, was more survivable, had more utility, more CC, and even more sustain for the hell of it. So yeah, youre wrong. Sorry. > Defensive stats weren't really lower, especially when it comes to vitality, because you still had all those tanky amulets that got removed now. Overall survivability is still higher nowadays, because of boons, traits and skills. So those 6k in the vid would have been less vs todays meta builds (if you'd have even lived long enough to land any dmg). You had tanky amulets which werent used, yes. Thats not really relevant. Overall survivability is *lower* nowadays, but damage is too, so it seems like it might be higher. The 6k in that video would've been *more* vs todays meta builds (because offensive stats increased), and you wouldve had a much easier time living long enough to land damage. Like, if you put old thief in todays meta, it would probably win most 1v1s and crush current thief, full stop.