UNOwen.7132

> @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > In what way did I lie about what happens in the video? can you quote the "lie"? Mhmm... > > > > Already did, but you were too busy spamming with "smoking crack". > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1399765/#Comment_1399765 > > > > >I responded to the thread to respond to Jasai's post when they said: > > > > lmao, you have some serious problems with keeping up with the context of messages you're answering to. You were not answering to Jasai(?) there (which I also already told you on this or last page). > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1396596/#Comment_1396596 > > > > Maybe you really aren't *intentionally* dodging what I write, maybe you actually don't understand what you read, who knows. > > > > > > >My video is wvw gameplay you seem to want to pretend that thief is unused in wvw and lacks reset potential. > > > > ...and when **exactly** did I write anything like that? :D > > Maybe u linked the wrong comments? cause no those links dont demonstrate what u claim as usual... > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1396689#Comment_1396689 They do actually. You say clones dont hit him, he points out that they do. You say you took significant damage, he points out you didnt. In general you posted a video showing the opposite of what you claimed it showed, got called out on it, and just doubled down on it. While being rather rude for someone who is wrong, too.

> @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"lightstalker.1498" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would like to see YOU, the one complaining about thief, show casing how thief is OP, and can we see last 10 games played on thief screenshot with at or above 50% win rate? It is a sad state of affairs when devs balance the game around streamers. Some really do nothing else, and I would hope that means they are good at the game, if you get my drift. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure here is a video I made recently. exactly 10 minutes into the video I ambushed by an high rank d/p thief. Although I did defeat the thief in both fights, I think its pretty clear that the thief lost almost by choice. What I mean is, the thief is able to reset over and over trying to get a burst. At the same time, on Mirage my clones run around and almost never actually make contact. The actual kill on the thief is very short using confusion, which is NOT easy. Most of the time these fights go to the thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly 10 minutes into the video my fight with a d/p DD starts. The clip right after is the DDs 2nd attempt which also fails. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "I can consistently win against thieves if they decide to fight me, but if they decide to fight me then it's automatically losing *by choice*. Class broken because it can run away". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Isn't this what you've just said? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Obviously not. Your statement smells like troll bait. =) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In what way what you said doesn't mean what I said? Explain what you meant then. You were supposed to show thief being op [while playing it], but all you did was link to a vid [from a different mode btw] where you win against thief twice and then claimed "thief lost by choice". Apparently that "choice" being "actually fighting". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thief for SURE lost by choice. My post talking about that is VERY clear. You are obviously looking for an agument and hoping to miss represent facts to do it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **The thief lost by choice because in the video you can literally see the thief stealth and reset out of range many many times. Each time the thief has the option to leave the fight** if it ever felt it might lose or was in a losing match-up. Therefore, as I said before the thief was arguably being lazy and assuming it would get the kill because its probably used to face-rolling over Mesmer and others. In other words, the thief CHOSE to ambush me and had multiple chances to leave the fight and live if it ever thought it was in a losing fight. So obviously it thought it was in a winning fight and was wrong. That means it was 100% the thief's choice/mistake all the way from start to finish. Its extremely clear and not even really debatable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...so you think he "lost by choice because he didn't run away". Not sure why you've tried calling me a troll and then repeated what I said (and what you said before). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You try to say "the thief thought he was in a winning fight" based on what exactly? Based on the fact that he didn't "run away for good," despite needing to disengage multiple times to not die earlier? That's hilarious. Absolutely make sure to tell me where that conclusion came from. > > > > > > > > And the fact that whenever he disengaged and re-engaged, you also had the time to heal up is somehow irrelvant here? It's almost as if he taking his time also give you time to do whatever you want to do and helped you stand your ground. > > > > > > > > You say that "he's used to face-rolling over mesmer and others", but somehow he didn't faceroll you? Why exactly? Why is the thief using stealth or running unfair, but you utilizing your mechanic and standing between your clones is perfectly fine? Running isn't winning, not even close. Even moreso in pvp gamemode btw. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You really make no sense. > > > > > > > > > > > > At which part exactly? (inb4 "all of it" which is not a valid answer, but just an effort to escape facts you don't like :( ) > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was standing still typing in chat, thief stealth attacks me and stealth again so quick that clones cannot reach thief. the thief keeps stealthing and attacking a mostly stationary target (me) who didn't instigate the attack or chase the thief. Repeatedly the clones cannot even hit the thief because it can restealth so fast after attacks that Mirage (me) almost cannot hit the thief. The thief does significant damage to my Trailblazer Mirage. The thief can reset over and over. > > > > > > > > > > > > "stealths and attack a mostly stationary target who didn't instigate the attack"? "repeatedly the clones cannot even hit the thief?" "significant dmg"? You were at 16k+ hp for vast majority of that fight. > > > > > > It's pretty funny because your description here is just a plain lie, maybe you should rewatch your own video before trying to talk back? > > > > > > > > > > > > 10:02 -start of the fight, thief deals 7k of free dmg because -just like you said- you stand in the middle of wvw and type (not sure how that's supposed to play into you trying to show thief is op, but ok :lol: ) > > > > > > 10:22 -you're already at about the same hp %. Thief stealths, but still takes some condi dmg, now he's at lower hp % (and just flat lower hp, but that was true since the start of the fight, so w/e) than you are. Good job achieving that while claiming the thief is impossible to hit I guess? > > > > > > Now you're just standing behind the clones, waiting for the thief to appear/re-engage. Which he does and so he takes more dmg going from 60%+ hp to 20%. All that not exactly by you somehow outplaying him or presenting some hightened gamesense with *exceptional mouse-skill-clicking reflexes*, but mostly by standing near your clones (which, as you claim, can't even hit the thief -must be magic). > > > > > > Thief burns heal and stealths, because he already almost died, while you're still at >16k hp. The fight resets for both of you and at this point... so much for your "he thought he'll easly win theory, when he pretty much already lost once and had to run away. > > > > > > > > > > > > Then he re-engages again, tries to burst you, he can't, you stand by the clones, yaddayaddayadda, same story as before, goes down to **11%** hp, while you're still at **13k**. At this point he disengages again, but you actually even get out of combat first to heal back to full hp when he's still at below 40%. Now YOU engage him, he barely touches you and dies because you're clearly some kind of skill-clicking condi mirage god or something xd > > > > > > > > > > > > >What kinda stuff are you smoking? I might like some too! Blather on all u like though about thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > Aww buddy -pretty clearly if anyone's "smoking something" here, it's not me. Keep making your own reality despite the video you've posted by yourself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As you said, I pointed out and then *you confirmed again*: the thief *"lost by choice"*, because he *chose* to participate in a fight while in wvw instead of running away and pveing camps I guess. > > > > > > > > > > So when I go from like 24k to 16k each attack, thats not significant damage? smoke some more crack. BTW I could really give a kitten about this thief if your problem. I just posted a video as an example of thieves high reset potential. > > > > > > > > > > You are just a bitter player looking to attack someone to make yourself feel better. As I said before. Keep it up you may just find you bring yet, MORE unwanted attention from Anet about thief balance and get yet more nerfs. (none of which I asked for or suggested) > > > > > > > > > > Go smoke a little more crack. > > > > > > > > Buddy, stop spamming with "woah you smoke crack!" when you don't have anything of value to respond with. > > > > Take a few deeper breaths, re-read what I wrote (while you're at it, maybe even re-read your own post I was answering to, just to make sure I am actually responding to what you said, which I do) and answer with something relevant. If you want to randomize insults, look somewhere else. > > > > > > > > You're the one person in this thread that keeps constantly insulting others instead of answering to the contents of their msgs in at least last few of your posts -so much for being "*a bitter player looking to attack someone to make yourself feel better*". For real, re-read last few posts and take a good look at yourself in light of what you just wrote. > > > > > > Here is a list of the reasons you are wrong in list form to make it simple. > > > > > > 1) thief is MUCH higher rank > > > 2) thief keeps resetting out of my combat range. > > > 2a if I chase I use up my only mobility which is also one of 2 stun breaks. > > > 2b At this point the thief is free to find a new target or wait for another attack opportunity. > > > 3) the thief does enough damage to kill me given the chance which is why its attacking. > > > 4) the thief instigated the fight from stealth ambush on a trailblazer Mirage which the thief's mistake if anyone's. > > > 5) My entire damage burst on the thief was from confusion which means when the thief goes down its actually from them choosing to activate skills which leads to them taking bust level damage. > > > 6) the point of my post was to respond to another post about thief having high reset potential in wvw to the point that people complain about it. > > > 7) You seem to wana nit pick my input methods for skill activation rather than talk about the actual subject. > > > > > > Im not going to explain everything to someone who I think is just looking for some kind of soft target. You no valid counter argument. > > > > > > You seem to want to counter the fact that thief has massive reset potential by saying, in effect, _No your wrong thief is so badly under powered it couldn't possibly kill a Mirage because the thief lost._ That isn't a counter argument to the fact that thieves high reset potential or that ultimately means the thief chose to fight and stay in the fight to the loss and had other options that would have let the thief escape the fight it started if it didnt wana be in that fight. PARTICULARLY, when you take into account Im running a built that is using CONFUSION for its burst meaning they had to activate skills to get hurt like they did..... > > > > > > *eye roll* > > > > > > > So, you beat a guy higher ranked then you while they were on thief, even though they reset. > > > > Case closed. > > > > Thief is garbo. > > > > > > Garbo thief is garbo, good thief still works. Its very evident to anyone who spends time north of the bridge at Scamp, near borderland entrances, stands around SMC in off hours etc. No shortage of core thiefs, DD and DE in WvW the thief class is alive and well and u know it. But your argument is that the thief was a lot better than you, and he still died. So which is it? And eh, thieves nowadays are actually fairly rare for a rogue class. I hardly ever see them, and the few that I do see fail to do anything. The class is not really alive. More undead if anything.

> @"McPero.3287" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > @"McPero.3287" said: > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > @"McPero.3287" said: > > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > > > > The devs don't use codes to give themselves items in game, that weapon and armor require a huge time sink to get...it's safe to assume that he's a guardian main..., as it has been admitted in the past by the devs, the more people play a certain class in the office...the more input it will receives during balance meetings AKA **bias at subconscious level** where a profession which should be nerfed by , for example , 40% will get instead nerfed by 20%. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I won't call out any "hidden agenda"...I am simply pointing out the truth of the matter : the more devs play a profession, the easier it will get off the hook in a way or in another, meaning that **the nerfs will be always targeted in a way that the profession will remain at its peak**, it's common sense really, if the guy making the changes , plays also the class receiving them...well nothing much will change in terms of output > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's no secret that **no dev plays ele actively**, heck "one dev" ( I won't give out names for obvious reasons ) was surprised about the elementalist low HP when he tried to showcase : Tempest prior to HoT Launch...people can find the video on youtube. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another class like guardian is **Necromancer** and by a small margin **Engineer**.....revenant is a rather..."shady business" and let's leave it at that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Am I wrong?...So what professions will I see being played during devs streams?...... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By that logic guard wouldnt have seen its builds decimated and been relegated to a b-c tier otp. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I spent close to 1k hrs on guardian, being it my 3rd main, even went as far as to craft a 3rd legendary armor for it, also I main ele on which I have 8k hrs and in the end I experienced nerfs on both classes: I "cried" for the soft removal of the hammer burst which was my first official to go build on guardian but that didn't stop me from using other different builds ...and that's the fact...**nerfs on guardian are always class tailored, so when you lose something ..you always gain something else** and that's the opposite of ele where when you get nerfed...that's it..there is nothing to cushion the fall, you lose that gameplay option forever...jump on the next viable build waiting for it to be nerfed out of existence also. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So no...I don't need nerfs on guardian and I know exactly what you mean by B-C tier talk but that cannot stop me from telling the truth of the matter : "the professions mained by the devs tend to have an easier life in this game" and I have given a clear logical explanation on why that happens. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are a dev and play that class, you know what it makes it rumbles...you know what it needs and in what quantities, so the nerfs are not as destructive as with elementalist : they merely nerf the class based on what is being cried on in the forum **without bothering to see if the class is still working after the change**; they increased the CD on Twist of Fate as people were crying....now the class has a full set of 60s+ CD stunbreaks......they nerfed **fire weaver saying too much burning dmg** while on guardian I can burn snipe people with Spear of Justice or torch or the sword spirit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem with this game and why I don't even bother with it anymore is that **the devs themselves don't play their own game and they "balance" based on forum cries** so what is not being actively used by few devs...get hacked to death with nerfs making the class virtually unusable...but all is fine as long as Timmy stop crying about it on the forum...that's what I mean with my posts > > > > > > > > > > > > CMC is balancing PvP and he plays the game so you are objectively wrong. You also have 25 second stunbreak that blinds inflicts vulnerability and gives you 25% movement speed out of combat. You have 30s stunbreak that increase damage on your 5 next attacks and they apply conditions, so don't say ele has just 60s + cd stunbreaks. Also CMC is a warrior main why is sidenode warrior not being played all the time by your logic that devs make their clases op? No true warrior main loves playing healbreaker support warrior that is best support in the game right now so don't give me that. > > > > > > > > > > The air signet doesn't synergy with any viable strategic trait composition because signets themselves suck outside a niche meme condi tempest build - the glyph is more or less in the same boat...was used for condi weaver initial burst...was as the build is useless anyway now > > > > > > > > You are wrong, air signet is best stunbreak together with twist on weaver. Best weaver players play it. Not running the trait and not having synergy doesn't matter because its just that good. Glyph is not great but I was just pointing out that there are short cooldown stunbreaks. > > > > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > @"McPero.3287" said: > > > > > > > @"Widmo.3186" said: > > > > > > > > @"McPero.3287" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > > > > > > The devs don't use codes to give themselves items in game, that weapon and armor require a huge time sink to get...it's safe to assume that he's a guardian main..., as it has been admitted in the past by the devs, the more people play a certain class in the office...the more input it will receives during balance meetings AKA **bias at subconscious level** where a profession which should be nerfed by , for example , 40% will get instead nerfed by 20%. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I won't call out any "hidden agenda"...I am simply pointing out the truth of the matter : the more devs play a profession, the easier it will get off the hook in a way or in another, meaning that **the nerfs will be always targeted in a way that the profession will remain at its peak**, it's common sense really, if the guy making the changes , plays also the class receiving them...well nothing much will change in terms of output > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's no secret that **no dev plays ele actively**, heck "one dev" ( I won't give out names for obvious reasons ) was surprised about the elementalist low HP when he tried to showcase : Tempest prior to HoT Launch...people can find the video on youtube. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another class like guardian is **Necromancer** and by a small margin **Engineer**.....revenant is a rather..."shady business" and let's leave it at that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Am I wrong?...So what professions will I see being played during devs streams?...... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By that logic guard wouldnt have seen its builds decimated and been relegated to a b-c tier otp. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I spent close to 1k hrs on guardian, being it my 3rd main, even went as far as to craft a 3rd legendary armor for it, also I main ele on which I have 8k hrs and in the end I experienced nerfs on both classes: I "cried" for the soft removal of the hammer burst which was my first official to go build on guardian but that didn't stop me from using other different builds ...and that's the fact...**nerfs on guardian are always class tailored, so when you lose something ..you always gain something else** and that's the opposite of ele where when you get nerfed...that's it..there is nothing to cushion the fall, you lose that gameplay option forever...jump on the next viable build waiting for it to be nerfed out of existence also. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So no...I don't need nerfs on guardian and I know exactly what you mean by B-C tier talk but that cannot stop me from telling the truth of the matter : "the professions mained by the devs tend to have an easier life in this game" and I have given a clear logical explanation on why that happens. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are a dev and play that class, you know what it makes it rumbles...you know what it needs and in what quantities, so the nerfs are not as destructive as with elementalist : they merely nerf the class based on what is being cried on in the forum **without bothering to see if the class is still working after the change**; they increased the CD on Twist of Fate as people were crying....now the class has a full set of 60s+ CD stunbreaks......they nerfed **fire weaver saying too much burning dmg** while on guardian I can burn snipe people with Spear of Justice or torch or the sword spirit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem with this game and why I don't even bother with it anymore is that **the devs themselves don't play their own game and they "balance" based on forum cries** so what is not being actively used by few devs...get hacked to death with nerfs making the class virtually unusable...but all is fine as long as Timmy stop crying about it on the forum...that's what I mean with my posts > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > CMC is balancing PvP and he plays the game so you are objectively wrong. You also have 25 second stunbreak that blinds inflicts vulnerability and gives you 25% movement speed out of combat. You have 30s stunbreak that increase damage on your 5 next attacks and they apply conditions, so don't say ele has just 60s + cd stunbreaks. Also CMC is a warrior main why is sidenode warrior not being played all the time by your logic that devs make their clases op? No true warrior main loves playing healbreaker support warrior that is best support in the game right now so don't give me that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > His balancing is just like his gameplay mechanical skills, I wont say if its good or bad, if you know, you know. The thing that he played ele makes it even more hillarious after seeing 'updates' on this class. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think his balancing of weaver is good and fire weaver is in a very good spot. Tempest nerfs (not bugfixes) however weren't the best. And core ele is unfixable, you buff core to be in okay spot tempest/weaver are broken. > > > > > > > > > > **good balance means that the enemy can effectively kill you without being oppressive....an enemy unable to outplay you is not good balance**. > > > > > > > > > > Weaver has good balance? .....lol......and about core ele, there are many ways to buff core ele without affecting the elite specs and having a strong core class doesn't seem to be a problem with everything else but engi possibly > > > > > > > > > > P.S you may want to cut on the pointless "personal BIAS" talk, I can effectively play 5 different professions, enough to be a threat in most situations, ofc I won't go and say "I am this and that" as right now I don't spend nearly as much time as before in GW2, but still I have playable knowledge of 5 different professions [ele-ranger-warrior-guardian and necro] shared across a 12k+ hrs experiencen from the last 8 years. The only reason why I am still here is because I can play other professions outside ele and did so for years now....if you want to point fingers looking for your common "main class Bias"...do so in another direction > > > > > > > > So how would you buff core ele but not make elite specs broken? > > > > > > > > What are you talking about? Quote me where I accused someone of main bias? You are the one accusing Anet balance team of biased balancing. You may wanna cut on saying things that are not true. > > > > > > @"McPero.3287" > > > Saying balancing has been bad is also just wrong game has been getting progressively better after PoF launch disaster and CMC has more braincells than to listen to unreasonable mains crying on forums why their class is weak and how other class is OP. " > > > > > > How to make core ele viable again? > > > -Adding a 5th attunement mechanic, they have the technical abilities as shown with Core rev , mesmer shatter, necro shroud, warrior burst mechanic etc etc etc > > > > > > That would be an example, there are many more in the 16+ pages thread in ele subforum and the only objection against buffing ele is ....**never a legitimate one** , you consider people on the forum as unreasonable for pointing out **the bias at design level**, it has been explained before already, the bias you think of it's not the one exposed here : nobody here thinks that a dev go and directly modify a profession **consciously** , the biased balance happens at **subconscious level** , despite of what idolatry you may have for Anet..at the end of the day they're still human. > > > > > > The truth is that elementalist is stuck with the **GW 2012 design ideology** which was more closely related to GW1 aka skill and efforts = Rewards ; an ideology that doesn't sit well with the "insta gratification" generation , these days people play a class that does 1-2-3 and deal massive aoe dmg ....deluding themselves in thinking to be the hottest thing around. > > > > > > > > > > It had been getting better ... until the *disastrous* february megapatch. That one immediately made everything worse than it has ever been at any point in the games history. And no, CMC isnt a good balancer, we have him to thank for delivering another deathblow with the february megapatch. > > Explain why February patch was bad? Because you cant press rampage and cc someone to death? Because half the classes don't have perma 25 might? Because firebrand autos in tome don't heal for 3k? Because firebrand is no longer only viable support that would poop stability and make cc irrelevant? Because fire weaver can't stand afk with primodial stance killing someone? > Because it introduced *major* powerdip. Its like powercreep, but the other way around and a *lot* worse. Now damage is so low that even glass cannons are being called "bunker" builds. 1v1s never end, you just wait to get +1d, and try to knock the enemy off the point until then. The game became a lot more unskilled, as timing and careful usage of skills doesnt matter, and youre instead encouraged to just spam everything off cooldown always. Because the has gotten so bad, that synchronised dancing became a valuable skill. So bad that the only exciting things happening in the big MOTA tournament were interupts on Rez Glyphs. > There were obviously bad things in the patch but the general idea and way of changes was correct. Random things that didn't need a nerf were nerfed, certain things were forgotten and stayed strong. With each balance patch things that are OP get nerfed and then some other OP kitten is found but eventually everything will be brought on the same level apart from core ele and engineer. No. The general idea and the way they changed things were *extremely* bad. The idea was "lets make damage lower than the *lowest point in the games history*", as well as "lets make most CC abilitis that has damage basically useless", "lets make the game spammy and skilless" and "lets make sure that the only thing that matters for sidenoders is knockbacks". With each balance patch, they double down on all of these, making damage even lower and the game even more skillless.

> @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > @"McPero.3287" said: > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > @"McPero.3287" said: > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > > The devs don't use codes to give themselves items in game, that weapon and armor require a huge time sink to get...it's safe to assume that he's a guardian main..., as it has been admitted in the past by the devs, the more people play a certain class in the office...the more input it will receives during balance meetings AKA **bias at subconscious level** where a profession which should be nerfed by , for example , 40% will get instead nerfed by 20%. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I won't call out any "hidden agenda"...I am simply pointing out the truth of the matter : the more devs play a profession, the easier it will get off the hook in a way or in another, meaning that **the nerfs will be always targeted in a way that the profession will remain at its peak**, it's common sense really, if the guy making the changes , plays also the class receiving them...well nothing much will change in terms of output > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's no secret that **no dev plays ele actively**, heck "one dev" ( I won't give out names for obvious reasons ) was surprised about the elementalist low HP when he tried to showcase : Tempest prior to HoT Launch...people can find the video on youtube. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another class like guardian is **Necromancer** and by a small margin **Engineer**.....revenant is a rather..."shady business" and let's leave it at that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Am I wrong?...So what professions will I see being played during devs streams?...... > > > > > > > > > > > > By that logic guard wouldnt have seen its builds decimated and been relegated to a b-c tier otp. > > > > > > > > > > I spent close to 1k hrs on guardian, being it my 3rd main, even went as far as to craft a 3rd legendary armor for it, also I main ele on which I have 8k hrs and in the end I experienced nerfs on both classes: I "cried" for the soft removal of the hammer burst which was my first official to go build on guardian but that didn't stop me from using other different builds ...and that's the fact...**nerfs on guardian are always class tailored, so when you lose something ..you always gain something else** and that's the opposite of ele where when you get nerfed...that's it..there is nothing to cushion the fall, you lose that gameplay option forever...jump on the next viable build waiting for it to be nerfed out of existence also. > > > > > > > > > > So no...I don't need nerfs on guardian and I know exactly what you mean by B-C tier talk but that cannot stop me from telling the truth of the matter : "the professions mained by the devs tend to have an easier life in this game" and I have given a clear logical explanation on why that happens. > > > > > > > > > > If you are a dev and play that class, you know what it makes it rumbles...you know what it needs and in what quantities, so the nerfs are not as destructive as with elementalist : they merely nerf the class based on what is being cried on in the forum **without bothering to see if the class is still working after the change**; they increased the CD on Twist of Fate as people were crying....now the class has a full set of 60s+ CD stunbreaks......they nerfed **fire weaver saying too much burning dmg** while on guardian I can burn snipe people with Spear of Justice or torch or the sword spirit. > > > > > > > > > > The problem with this game and why I don't even bother with it anymore is that **the devs themselves don't play their own game and they "balance" based on forum cries** so what is not being actively used by few devs...get hacked to death with nerfs making the class virtually unusable...but all is fine as long as Timmy stop crying about it on the forum...that's what I mean with my posts > > > > > > > > CMC is balancing PvP and he plays the game so you are objectively wrong. You also have 25 second stunbreak that blinds inflicts vulnerability and gives you 25% movement speed out of combat. You have 30s stunbreak that increase damage on your 5 next attacks and they apply conditions, so don't say ele has just 60s + cd stunbreaks. Also CMC is a warrior main why is sidenode warrior not being played all the time by your logic that devs make their clases op? No true warrior main loves playing healbreaker support warrior that is best support in the game right now so don't give me that. > > > > > > The air signet doesn't synergy with any viable strategic trait composition because signets themselves suck outside a niche meme condi tempest build - the glyph is more or less in the same boat...was used for condi weaver initial burst...was as the build is useless anyway now > > > > You are wrong, air signet is best stunbreak together with twist on weaver. Best weaver players play it. Not running the trait and not having synergy doesn't matter because its just that good. Glyph is not great but I was just pointing out that there are short cooldown stunbreaks. > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > @"McPero.3287" said: > > > > > @"Widmo.3186" said: > > > > > > @"McPero.3287" said: > > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > > > > The devs don't use codes to give themselves items in game, that weapon and armor require a huge time sink to get...it's safe to assume that he's a guardian main..., as it has been admitted in the past by the devs, the more people play a certain class in the office...the more input it will receives during balance meetings AKA **bias at subconscious level** where a profession which should be nerfed by , for example , 40% will get instead nerfed by 20%. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I won't call out any "hidden agenda"...I am simply pointing out the truth of the matter : the more devs play a profession, the easier it will get off the hook in a way or in another, meaning that **the nerfs will be always targeted in a way that the profession will remain at its peak**, it's common sense really, if the guy making the changes , plays also the class receiving them...well nothing much will change in terms of output > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's no secret that **no dev plays ele actively**, heck "one dev" ( I won't give out names for obvious reasons ) was surprised about the elementalist low HP when he tried to showcase : Tempest prior to HoT Launch...people can find the video on youtube. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another class like guardian is **Necromancer** and by a small margin **Engineer**.....revenant is a rather..."shady business" and let's leave it at that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Am I wrong?...So what professions will I see being played during devs streams?...... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By that logic guard wouldnt have seen its builds decimated and been relegated to a b-c tier otp. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I spent close to 1k hrs on guardian, being it my 3rd main, even went as far as to craft a 3rd legendary armor for it, also I main ele on which I have 8k hrs and in the end I experienced nerfs on both classes: I "cried" for the soft removal of the hammer burst which was my first official to go build on guardian but that didn't stop me from using other different builds ...and that's the fact...**nerfs on guardian are always class tailored, so when you lose something ..you always gain something else** and that's the opposite of ele where when you get nerfed...that's it..there is nothing to cushion the fall, you lose that gameplay option forever...jump on the next viable build waiting for it to be nerfed out of existence also. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So no...I don't need nerfs on guardian and I know exactly what you mean by B-C tier talk but that cannot stop me from telling the truth of the matter : "the professions mained by the devs tend to have an easier life in this game" and I have given a clear logical explanation on why that happens. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are a dev and play that class, you know what it makes it rumbles...you know what it needs and in what quantities, so the nerfs are not as destructive as with elementalist : they merely nerf the class based on what is being cried on in the forum **without bothering to see if the class is still working after the change**; they increased the CD on Twist of Fate as people were crying....now the class has a full set of 60s+ CD stunbreaks......they nerfed **fire weaver saying too much burning dmg** while on guardian I can burn snipe people with Spear of Justice or torch or the sword spirit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem with this game and why I don't even bother with it anymore is that **the devs themselves don't play their own game and they "balance" based on forum cries** so what is not being actively used by few devs...get hacked to death with nerfs making the class virtually unusable...but all is fine as long as Timmy stop crying about it on the forum...that's what I mean with my posts > > > > > > > > > > > > CMC is balancing PvP and he plays the game so you are objectively wrong. You also have 25 second stunbreak that blinds inflicts vulnerability and gives you 25% movement speed out of combat. You have 30s stunbreak that increase damage on your 5 next attacks and they apply conditions, so don't say ele has just 60s + cd stunbreaks. Also CMC is a warrior main why is sidenode warrior not being played all the time by your logic that devs make their clases op? No true warrior main loves playing healbreaker support warrior that is best support in the game right now so don't give me that. > > > > > > > > > > His balancing is just like his gameplay mechanical skills, I wont say if its good or bad, if you know, you know. The thing that he played ele makes it even more hillarious after seeing 'updates' on this class. > > > > > > > > I think his balancing of weaver is good and fire weaver is in a very good spot. Tempest nerfs (not bugfixes) however weren't the best. And core ele is unfixable, you buff core to be in okay spot tempest/weaver are broken. > > > > > > **good balance means that the enemy can effectively kill you without being oppressive....an enemy unable to outplay you is not good balance**. > > > > > > Weaver has good balance? .....lol......and about core ele, there are many ways to buff core ele without affecting the elite specs and having a strong core class doesn't seem to be a problem with everything else but engi possibly > > > > > > P.S you may want to cut on the pointless "personal BIAS" talk, I can effectively play 5 different professions, enough to be a threat in most situations, ofc I won't go and say "I am this and that" as right now I don't spend nearly as much time as before in GW2, but still I have playable knowledge of 5 different professions [ele-ranger-warrior-guardian and necro] shared across a 12k+ hrs experiencen from the last 8 years. The only reason why I am still here is because I can play other professions outside ele and did so for years now....if you want to point fingers looking for your common "main class Bias"...do so in another direction > > > > So how would you buff core ele but not make elite specs broken? > > > > What are you talking about? Quote me where I accused someone of main bias? You are the one accusing Anet balance team of biased balancing. You may wanna cut on saying things that are not true. > > @"McPero.3287" > Saying balancing has been bad is also just wrong game has been getting progressively better after PoF launch disaster and CMC has more braincells than to listen to unreasonable mains crying on forums why their class is weak and how other class is OP. " > > How to make core ele viable again? > -Adding a 5th attunement mechanic, they have the technical abilities as shown with Core rev , mesmer shatter, necro shroud, warrior burst mechanic etc etc etc > > That would be an example, there are many more in the 16+ pages thread in ele subforum and the only objection against buffing ele is ....**never a legitimate one** , you consider people on the forum as unreasonable for pointing out **the bias at design level**, it has been explained before already, the bias you think of it's not the one exposed here : nobody here thinks that a dev go and directly modify a profession **consciously** , the biased balance happens at **subconscious level** , despite of what idolatry you may have for Anet..at the end of the day they're still human. > > The truth is that elementalist is stuck with the **GW 2012 design ideology** which was more closely related to GW1 aka skill and efforts = Rewards ; an ideology that doesn't sit well with the "insta gratification" generation , these days people play a class that does 1-2-3 and deal massive aoe dmg ....deluding themselves in thinking to be the hottest thing around. > > It had been getting better ... until the *disastrous* february megapatch. That one immediately made everything worse than it has ever been at any point in the games history. And no, CMC isnt a good balancer, we have him to thank for delivering another deathblow with the february megapatch.

So basically make thief unplayable, and make 1v1s on nodes so entirely pointless that you can just start practicing synchronised dancing?

> @"mixxed.5862" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"mixxed.5862" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"mixxed.5862" said: > > > > > > @"Multicolorhipster.9751" said: > > > > > > I agree with your 3 major points, A, B, and slightly C. > > > > > > Fun should take priority over balance. > > > > > > Build diversity and experimentation should be encouraged. > > > > > > I think balance changes are good for keeping things sorta fresh, but actual content updates would do more I think. Balance updates usually only reengage interest for about a week(if at all) then its off to some other game. Honestly I think balance patches should be more hands-off than hands-on, and when they do require some hands-on attention, being done in more creative ways that make PvP more enjoyable and don't just shut down a way to play. > > > > > > > > > > > > That being said, I don't think sustain needs or needed big nerfs. Aside from the occasional outlier extreme example, it was perfectly fine when damage was still in the game. > > > > > > The real reason fights drag on forever now isn't because of bunkers have too much sustain, but because both types of damage took a pretty big dive. Toughness, Condi Cleanses, and Vitality all still function exactly the same in a world where damage and condi application is much lower. > > > > > > You could nerf sustain for every class into the dirt, it's not going to change much if damage is still so low. > > > > > > Or if you wanted to be even more unreasonable, you could remove even more sustainy amulets to cover up an inability to balance sustain in this low damage slogfest clown fiesta. > > > > > > > > > > > > I also agree on your ideas on fun design. > > > > > > > > > > > > Unless CMC's philosophy changes, I don't have the same faith. > > > > > > The Feb25th patch was their passion project. > > > > > > They were quoted saying: "Buffs in 2020 OMEGALUL" > > > > > > Unless that changes to: "Buffs in 2021 FeelsGoodMan" then I am terrified. Please hold me MonkaS > > > > > > > > > > I entirely agree, balance patches are not enough to keep things fresh and exciting. We need new content and new elite specs, even if they always mess up a lot. > > > > > > > > > > The way I'm seeing the whole sustain vs damage debate that sparked from the february patch is probably a bit simplistic. > > > > > 1) On the one side of the spectrum you have builds that 100 to 0 you in a second. > > > > > 2) On the other side of the spectrum there are the builds that can handily resustain every burst they eat. > > > > > Both are definitely unfun and need to be purged. > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thing is that while builds *could* 100 to 0 you, they generally didnt, because you could stop them. The average fight lasted 30 seconds to a minute, and thats a good number to aim for. The good burst was balanced out with good defense and reasonable sustain. > > > > > > > > > While we hardly see the former category of builds anymore (which is great), we see too much of the latter. Therefore mostly sustain needs a nerf, although buffing up the damage on some of the CC skills that they made an especially poor job of back in february seems like a good idea. > > > > > > > > We dont actually see *any* of the latter. Because there is no point at all. Why go full bunker if you can be unkillable while playing a glass cannon build? The problem is entirely that damage is too low, to the point where you need very little sustain to negate the damage. > > > > > > > > > Ideally we even find a good balance for the sidenode meta that way : Where every 1v1 on a side node finds a timely victor. > > > > > > > > We had that. It was called the pre-february patch meta. We should just return to it, rather than double down on the current spammer's delight. > > > > > > I think it doesn't matter what you call them. The beefy builds have too much sustain right now, they slow down the game by too much. Even if node scrapper has some decent AoE pressure, it's still very much a defense focused build. And even if shout spellbreaker is support first and foremost, it offers too much self-sustain. Nerf 'em! > > > > > > > Those "beefy" builds are glass cannon builds. The damage just isnt there to even kill glass cannons. There isnt any reason to go for a proper bunker build, you just give up damage for nothing. > > > > > I remember that pre-february the only way to bunker a node was as a water weaver spaming evades. The damage and burst being put out constantly were on another level. I don't want to go back to that. I still want fights to last for a couple of seconds longer - I believe it's more skillful and fun. Just make the fast-paced and skillful team comps the most rewarding to play again, instead of the slow and sustain-heavy ones. > > > > Depends on how you define "bunker". If you mean "able to hold it without *ever* dying no matter what the enemy does", then sure. But thats not healthy in and of itself. Being able to hold a node for a minute though? That was the norm. *Every* sidenoder could do that. As I said, the average fight lasted 30 seconds to a minute. That was more skillful and fun. Now, fights dont end at all until outnumbered. You literally cant die, even if youre a glass cannon. That is boring. So boring that in that big tournament a while back, some players started synchronised dancing instead of 1v1ing because of how pointless it was. > > Yeah, that's exactly what I understand by bunker builds: Builds that manage to sustain a node indefinitely 1v1. In my opinion such builds will always be unhealthy for conquest. If they also offer decent node pressure to peel for themselves in a 1v2 versus e.g. a squishy thief they become a real problem. They stalemate the game. That's why kalla renegade recently was meta and scrapper is right now. The problem is that once scrapper gets nerfed the next build will rise on the very same premise. I'd suspect it'll be water weaver and druid - although they don't have the same amount of node pressure, so I hope they'll be a little more manageable when outnumbered. > They also usually dont exist. And hell, by that logic *every* build right now is a "bunker" build. Even a glass thief can hold a node indefinitely. The damage just plain isnt there. > Either way, I believe we're stuck with bunker builds for a while. Even if we hope for a better side node meta already with more balanced builds such as strength spellbreaker, fire weaver, even core ranger and such. For those builds sustain is already close to where it should be, although they could do with a bit of a nerf as well. > **-> Reduce sustain comprehensively.** No. Reducing sustain is just doubling down on the poor state of the game. Damage needs to be *increased*.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > mesmer gs2 no longer has proj finisher since feb patch PepeHands Wait, was it meant to have one? I dont recall it ever saying that it was one in the description.

> @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > >You call it a cowards class, but more accurately, it a support class. > > > > > > I’ve seen it all ??? > > > > > > > > > > What, do you disagree with that definition? Because the style of thief has been considered a support class for a very long time. Thief cannot do much of anything on their own. Their goal is to empower their team, both directly through +1ing and creating outnumbered situations, but also by applying pressure around the map through rotation and the ever-present threat of decapping. Thats a support playstyle. > > Nah man go for it. I just haven’t seen anyone besides 1 other person attempt a menders shadow savior thief. Its only viable if you put in the time to learn it, is what I usually say. Support and healer are not the same thing. You can be a support without healing. Its about your role in the game. And thieves role is that of a support.

> @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > >You call it a cowards class, but more accurately, it a support class. > > I’ve seen it all ??? > > What, do you disagree with that definition? Because the style of thief has been considered a support class for a very long time. Thief cannot do much of anything on their own. Their goal is to empower their team, both directly through +1ing and creating outnumbered situations, but also by applying pressure around the map through rotation and the ever-present threat of decapping. Thats a support playstyle.

> @"Yasai.3549" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > tldr, CC no longer exist in 1v1 or 1v2. in 1v3+ you get insta stunned and insta gibbed as you cant remove stuns. > > kudos to IH mesmer for daze sword spamming, the only thing that can still CC anything. > > > > EDIT > > my enemy is casting a healing skill, I just need to daze him 6 times to prevent it! > > OMEGALUL > > I mean yu may laugh at it, but this could force players to play in a radically different way than they were previously playing. > The game would go from CCing at key moments to using Stunbreaks to "repair" yur own breakbar to prevent getting stunned, and dodging CC skills. > Oh, sure it would. No one would use CC Anymore other than teamfighters that use it to insta-gib everyone. Its a pretty rubbish idea. > Keeps people on their toes and turns Zerg stab spam into potential mass Fear which cripples the entire zerg ho ho ho ho. > It doesnt really keep anyone on their toes. Either the enemy wont even bother trying to cc them, or they will be ccd without being able to do anything. Might as well go with the flow at that point.

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > ... how did they hit someone in stealth with a shadowshot? Actually scratch that, why were they *using* shadowshot? And how did they "go into stealth for 10 seconds" when its trivially easy for one thief to prevent the other one from doing so? Also you know autos can be used to track enemies in stealth, so it wasnt as "random" as you thought? > > I don't think anyone will care about the intricacies of thief at the end of the day, and wouldn't expect someone who thinks the entirety of a thief ditto is "both stealthed for 2mins, one randomly downs" to know or care about what their skills do or why they're used when. You might be asking questions with no answers. > > Yeah that was more or less my point, the story was so ludicrous it wasnt even plausible. The standard thief mirror is just each of them lands one burst on the other one, realises neither of them will be able to kill the other one, and both of them just go elsewhere.

> @"Yasai.3549" said: > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > Someone has yet to explain in which universe stealth into backstab for 15 minutes is high skill cap, 'cause for the life of me I can't understand it. > > Yu also realise that the people who argue that "when the thief disengages, the thief lost" are usually non-thief players, or players who have played thief but isn't their main. > Thief is just, straight up, a cowards' class, except it's to the point where they either exist in a state of either running away or executing a burst. > I mean, depends on the context. In WvW? Yeah thats true. A Thief who disengages in WvW is a thief who has lost. In PvP? Thief isnt meant to be fighting anyone 1v1 anyway. You call it a cowards class, but more accurately, it a support class. One that explicitely supports by outnumbering. > I've seen a duel between two thieves recently, and it's straight up the dumbest thing I've seen. > I just see two people going into Stealth for 10s, then one guy appearing because they apparently "accidentally tapped" the other Thief with either Shadowshot or an Auto, and they proceed to randomly Auto the area for around 3 seconds, then go back into Stealth, then repeats for around 2minutes before one Thief randomly appears downed. > ... how did they hit someone in stealth with a shadowshot? Actually scratch that, why were they *using* shadowshot? And how did they "go into stealth for 10 seconds" when its trivially easy for one thief to prevent the other one from doing so? Also you know autos can be used to track enemies in stealth, so it wasnt as "random" as you thought?

> @"Math.5123" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Math.5123" said: > > > > @"darren.1064" said: > > > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"lightstalker.1498" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would like to see YOU, the one complaining about thief, show casing how thief is OP, and can we see last 10 games played on thief screenshot with at or above 50% win rate? It is a sad state of affairs when devs balance the game around streamers. Some really do nothing else, and I would hope that means they are good at the game, if you get my drift. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure here is a video I made recently. exactly 10 minutes into the video I ambushed by an high rank d/p thief. Although I did defeat the thief in both fights, I think its pretty clear that the thief lost almost by choice. What I mean is, the thief is able to reset over and over trying to get a burst. At the same time, on Mirage my clones run around and almost never actually make contact. The actual kill on the thief is very short using confusion, which is NOT easy. Most of the time these fights go to the thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly 10 minutes into the video my fight with a d/p DD starts. The clip right after is the DDs 2nd attempt which also fails. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you sure this is the video you wanted to show? It seems to me like it shows that even against Thieves best matchup by a wide margin, condi mesmer (Plasma is OP), the thief had absolutely no hope of ever killing you. The best he could do is run away and survive, and if he stayed to fight, he would always have died, as he did in the end. And thats even against a player *clicking* their skills, which is highly inefficient to the point of giving the thief a massive advantage he usually wont have in a fight. Now of course, this is in WvW, not sPvP, so thieves advantage of being the fastest decapper and +1er is non-existent, and yeah, thief isnt any good in WvW, hence why despite the inherent popularity of rogue classes, nowadays you dont see a lot of thieves in WvW. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > various thief players screaming frantically to explain how losing 3/4 times in a row but being basically unpunished 'cause of the hundred thousand save-my-butt buttons (_which they claim *DO NOT* exist_) is balanced, healthy, cool and overall requires thief to be buffed 'cause come on, being able to reset whenever you lose is not enough, you need to be able to deal a kitten ton of damage too > > > > > > > > > > > ____ > > > > > > > > > > > > Thief is a class with a high skill cap but an absolute kitten pepega took 2:30 minutes of pounding before he finally went down, making mistakes that on any other class would have been instadeath; the guy got killed by absolute chance > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wish I could play the easy mode too but I don't like thief :( > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I get the feeling you replied to the wrong thing? I mean then again, it seems youre just the newest flavour of burnfall, blind hatred of thief while simultaniously having clearly no clue about thief whatsoever. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again: played thief, left it early on 'cause it was unpunishable and I was disgusted by how deeply easy and with no depth the gameplay was. Thief players on this forum act as if stealth into backstab for 15 minutes until someone dies is high skill cap, I renew my invitation to play a real class -any real class- and see if you can get away with the kitten thief lets you do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mate I've not even been playing thief in over a year. Im an Engineer player (core engineer specifically, which I'd wager is one of the hardest builds around in general). Thief aint easy. Easier than Engineer, yes, but *anything* that isnt some ele builds is easier than Engineer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Someone has yet to explain in which universe stealth into backstab for 15 minutes is high skill cap, 'cause for the life of me I can't understand it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Because thats just one tiny thing of the many things thief does? Thats like saying "Someone has yet to explain in which universe Plasma Beam into Arcane Blast and Lightning Strike for 15 minutes is high skill cap, 'cause for the life of me I can't understand it." Or hell, Prestige into Cry of Frustration. Because its a stupid statement meant by someone who clearly fails to understand even the absolute fundamentals of thief. > > > > > > > > > > Try failing a burst with a d\p thief, then try failing a burst with a fresh air ele, come back to this forum and report to the rest of the community what happens when you fail and CAN'T reset 100 times. > > > > > > > > tRy FaiLiNg a BuRsT oN D/P tHiEF anD tHeN Go BuTtOn MaSH oN NeCRo foR 2000% MoRe DaMaGe aNd MoRe SurViVabIliTY, CoMe BacK To ThIs FoRuM aNd RePoRt To ThE ReSt oF the CoMMuNi... CoMmMuni... CoMmUniTttty WhaT HapPenS WhEn yoU faIl and CaN"T ReSet 100 TimEs > > > > > > > > how'd I do? > > > > > > Imagine thinking necro has better survivability than thief. Good times. > > > > It does. Thats not really a question either. Now of course, this is because *survivability* doesnt involve "avoiding every fight". If just not being in a fight counted for survivability, afk spawn mesmer would be the most survivable build in the game. But when it comes to staying in a fight, Necro completely blows theif out of the water. > > Anything that can disengage and re-engage at will is very survivable. A thief should never die in a game, unless they severely misplay.> @"darren.1064" said: And a Mesmer afking at spawn will *never* die in a game. Are they the most survivable build? No, survivability is how well you can stay alive *while in a fight*. For that, thief is the single worst class. Its the same reason thief is the by far worst class in 2v2 and 3v3. Because in that gamemode, avoiding fights isnt an option. You need survivability. Survivability which the thief completely lacks. > > > @"Math.5123" said: > > > > @"darren.1064" said: > > > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"lightstalker.1498" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would like to see YOU, the one complaining about thief, show casing how thief is OP, and can we see last 10 games played on thief screenshot with at or above 50% win rate? It is a sad state of affairs when devs balance the game around streamers. Some really do nothing else, and I would hope that means they are good at the game, if you get my drift. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure here is a video I made recently. exactly 10 minutes into the video I ambushed by an high rank d/p thief. Although I did defeat the thief in both fights, I think its pretty clear that the thief lost almost by choice. What I mean is, the thief is able to reset over and over trying to get a burst. At the same time, on Mirage my clones run around and almost never actually make contact. The actual kill on the thief is very short using confusion, which is NOT easy. Most of the time these fights go to the thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly 10 minutes into the video my fight with a d/p DD starts. The clip right after is the DDs 2nd attempt which also fails. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you sure this is the video you wanted to show? It seems to me like it shows that even against Thieves best matchup by a wide margin, condi mesmer (Plasma is OP), the thief had absolutely no hope of ever killing you. The best he could do is run away and survive, and if he stayed to fight, he would always have died, as he did in the end. And thats even against a player *clicking* their skills, which is highly inefficient to the point of giving the thief a massive advantage he usually wont have in a fight. Now of course, this is in WvW, not sPvP, so thieves advantage of being the fastest decapper and +1er is non-existent, and yeah, thief isnt any good in WvW, hence why despite the inherent popularity of rogue classes, nowadays you dont see a lot of thieves in WvW. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > various thief players screaming frantically to explain how losing 3/4 times in a row but being basically unpunished 'cause of the hundred thousand save-my-butt buttons (_which they claim *DO NOT* exist_) is balanced, healthy, cool and overall requires thief to be buffed 'cause come on, being able to reset whenever you lose is not enough, you need to be able to deal a kitten ton of damage too > > > > > > > > > > > ____ > > > > > > > > > > > > Thief is a class with a high skill cap but an absolute kitten pepega took 2:30 minutes of pounding before he finally went down, making mistakes that on any other class would have been instadeath; the guy got killed by absolute chance > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wish I could play the easy mode too but I don't like thief :( > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I get the feeling you replied to the wrong thing? I mean then again, it seems youre just the newest flavour of burnfall, blind hatred of thief while simultaniously having clearly no clue about thief whatsoever. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again: played thief, left it early on 'cause it was unpunishable and I was disgusted by how deeply easy and with no depth the gameplay was. Thief players on this forum act as if stealth into backstab for 15 minutes until someone dies is high skill cap, I renew my invitation to play a real class -any real class- and see if you can get away with the kitten thief lets you do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mate I've not even been playing thief in over a year. Im an Engineer player (core engineer specifically, which I'd wager is one of the hardest builds around in general). Thief aint easy. Easier than Engineer, yes, but *anything* that isnt some ele builds is easier than Engineer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Someone has yet to explain in which universe stealth into backstab for 15 minutes is high skill cap, 'cause for the life of me I can't understand it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Because thats just one tiny thing of the many things thief does? Thats like saying "Someone has yet to explain in which universe Plasma Beam into Arcane Blast and Lightning Strike for 15 minutes is high skill cap, 'cause for the life of me I can't understand it." Or hell, Prestige into Cry of Frustration. Because its a stupid statement meant by someone who clearly fails to understand even the absolute fundamentals of thief. > > > > > > > > > > Try failing a burst with a d\p thief, then try failing a burst with a fresh air ele, come back to this forum and report to the rest of the community what happens when you fail and CAN'T reset 100 times. > > > > > > > > tRy FaiLiNg a BuRsT oN D/P tHiEF anD tHeN Go BuTtOn MaSH oN NeCRo foR 2000% MoRe DaMaGe aNd MoRe SurViVabIliTY, CoMe BacK To ThIs FoRuM aNd RePoRt To ThE ReSt oF the CoMMuNi... CoMmMuni... CoMmUniTttty WhaT HapPenS WhEn yoU faIl and CaN"T ReSet 100 TimEs > > > > > > > > how'd I do? > > > > > > Imagine thinking necro has better survivability than thief. Good times. > > > > You think the class with the biggest health pool + a second health pool doesn't have the highest survivability? Please hook me up with your plug. > > Necro is basically the least survivable class in the game. It has very low mobility, even with wurm and walk. It has no blocks, no evade frames and very little in combat heal. > Ah yes, the class that has ludicrous healing and a second healthbar that they can quickly recharge, and is famous for having been a 1v2 machine in the 2v2 arenas is "the least survivable class". No theyre not. Sure, if they get ganked, theyre usually gonna be in trouble, but so is *anyone* who gets ganked. > People that think hp = sustain just makes me question why i even bother. Its not the HP actually, its the healing and shroud that make necro survive quite well. > Water weaver is omega tanky, but it has the lowest health and armor class out of every class. But it survives because of it's insane evade uptime and resustain. Necro has neither. Once again, Necro has nuts resustain. They dont have great active defenses, true, but thats not that important when you can just tank through everything.

> @"felix.2386" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Math.5123" said: > > > > @"darren.1064" said: > > > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"lightstalker.1498" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would like to see YOU, the one complaining about thief, show casing how thief is OP, and can we see last 10 games played on thief screenshot with at or above 50% win rate? It is a sad state of affairs when devs balance the game around streamers. Some really do nothing else, and I would hope that means they are good at the game, if you get my drift. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure here is a video I made recently. exactly 10 minutes into the video I ambushed by an high rank d/p thief. Although I did defeat the thief in both fights, I think its pretty clear that the thief lost almost by choice. What I mean is, the thief is able to reset over and over trying to get a burst. At the same time, on Mirage my clones run around and almost never actually make contact. The actual kill on the thief is very short using confusion, which is NOT easy. Most of the time these fights go to the thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly 10 minutes into the video my fight with a d/p DD starts. The clip right after is the DDs 2nd attempt which also fails. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you sure this is the video you wanted to show? It seems to me like it shows that even against Thieves best matchup by a wide margin, condi mesmer (Plasma is OP), the thief had absolutely no hope of ever killing you. The best he could do is run away and survive, and if he stayed to fight, he would always have died, as he did in the end. And thats even against a player *clicking* their skills, which is highly inefficient to the point of giving the thief a massive advantage he usually wont have in a fight. Now of course, this is in WvW, not sPvP, so thieves advantage of being the fastest decapper and +1er is non-existent, and yeah, thief isnt any good in WvW, hence why despite the inherent popularity of rogue classes, nowadays you dont see a lot of thieves in WvW. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > various thief players screaming frantically to explain how losing 3/4 times in a row but being basically unpunished 'cause of the hundred thousand save-my-butt buttons (_which they claim *DO NOT* exist_) is balanced, healthy, cool and overall requires thief to be buffed 'cause come on, being able to reset whenever you lose is not enough, you need to be able to deal a kitten ton of damage too > > > > > > > > > > > ____ > > > > > > > > > > > > Thief is a class with a high skill cap but an absolute kitten pepega took 2:30 minutes of pounding before he finally went down, making mistakes that on any other class would have been instadeath; the guy got killed by absolute chance > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wish I could play the easy mode too but I don't like thief :( > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I get the feeling you replied to the wrong thing? I mean then again, it seems youre just the newest flavour of burnfall, blind hatred of thief while simultaniously having clearly no clue about thief whatsoever. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again: played thief, left it early on 'cause it was unpunishable and I was disgusted by how deeply easy and with no depth the gameplay was. Thief players on this forum act as if stealth into backstab for 15 minutes until someone dies is high skill cap, I renew my invitation to play a real class -any real class- and see if you can get away with the kitten thief lets you do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mate I've not even been playing thief in over a year. Im an Engineer player (core engineer specifically, which I'd wager is one of the hardest builds around in general). Thief aint easy. Easier than Engineer, yes, but *anything* that isnt some ele builds is easier than Engineer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Someone has yet to explain in which universe stealth into backstab for 15 minutes is high skill cap, 'cause for the life of me I can't understand it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Because thats just one tiny thing of the many things thief does? Thats like saying "Someone has yet to explain in which universe Plasma Beam into Arcane Blast and Lightning Strike for 15 minutes is high skill cap, 'cause for the life of me I can't understand it." Or hell, Prestige into Cry of Frustration. Because its a stupid statement meant by someone who clearly fails to understand even the absolute fundamentals of thief. > > > > > > > > > > Try failing a burst with a d\p thief, then try failing a burst with a fresh air ele, come back to this forum and report to the rest of the community what happens when you fail and CAN'T reset 100 times. > > > > > > > > tRy FaiLiNg a BuRsT oN D/P tHiEF anD tHeN Go BuTtOn MaSH oN NeCRo foR 2000% MoRe DaMaGe aNd MoRe SurViVabIliTY, CoMe BacK To ThIs FoRuM aNd RePoRt To ThE ReSt oF the CoMMuNi... CoMmMuni... CoMmUniTttty WhaT HapPenS WhEn yoU faIl and CaN"T ReSet 100 TimEs > > > > > > > > how'd I do? > > > > > > Imagine thinking necro has better survivability than thief. Good times. > > > > It does. Thats not really a question either. Now of course, this is because *survivability* doesnt involve "avoiding every fight". If just not being in a fight counted for survivability, afk spawn mesmer would be the most survivable build in the game. But when it comes to staying in a fight, Necro completely blows theif out of the water. > > yea, except thief can be survivable while still contribute to the team/match. > by either back capping, or stay for stealth decap(completely doubles enemy cap time), or literall simply being in stealth will disturb enemy rotation as you don't know where the fifth is, and you will be able to plus fights without knowing on top of steal's easy take down while maintaining minimum risk compared to any other builds > Thats not "being survivable". Thats *avoiding the fights alltogether*. Once again, by that logic afk spawn mesmer is the most survivable build in the game. > also you win game by not dieing while getting points, as long as you did the "not dieing" party, you already won half the match. > most snowballed matches are snowballed by necro having very low mobility and get ganged and get snowballed. Not really? Its usually just someone getting outnumbered and dying somewhere, and things spiraling out of control there. Usually that someone is a sidenoder. Which Necro is not.

> @"Math.5123" said: > > @"darren.1064" said: > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"lightstalker.1498" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > I would like to see YOU, the one complaining about thief, show casing how thief is OP, and can we see last 10 games played on thief screenshot with at or above 50% win rate? It is a sad state of affairs when devs balance the game around streamers. Some really do nothing else, and I would hope that means they are good at the game, if you get my drift. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure here is a video I made recently. exactly 10 minutes into the video I ambushed by an high rank d/p thief. Although I did defeat the thief in both fights, I think its pretty clear that the thief lost almost by choice. What I mean is, the thief is able to reset over and over trying to get a burst. At the same time, on Mirage my clones run around and almost never actually make contact. The actual kill on the thief is very short using confusion, which is NOT easy. Most of the time these fights go to the thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly 10 minutes into the video my fight with a d/p DD starts. The clip right after is the DDs 2nd attempt which also fails. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you sure this is the video you wanted to show? It seems to me like it shows that even against Thieves best matchup by a wide margin, condi mesmer (Plasma is OP), the thief had absolutely no hope of ever killing you. The best he could do is run away and survive, and if he stayed to fight, he would always have died, as he did in the end. And thats even against a player *clicking* their skills, which is highly inefficient to the point of giving the thief a massive advantage he usually wont have in a fight. Now of course, this is in WvW, not sPvP, so thieves advantage of being the fastest decapper and +1er is non-existent, and yeah, thief isnt any good in WvW, hence why despite the inherent popularity of rogue classes, nowadays you dont see a lot of thieves in WvW. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > various thief players screaming frantically to explain how losing 3/4 times in a row but being basically unpunished 'cause of the hundred thousand save-my-butt buttons (_which they claim *DO NOT* exist_) is balanced, healthy, cool and overall requires thief to be buffed 'cause come on, being able to reset whenever you lose is not enough, you need to be able to deal a kitten ton of damage too > > > > > > > > > ____ > > > > > > > > > > Thief is a class with a high skill cap but an absolute kitten pepega took 2:30 minutes of pounding before he finally went down, making mistakes that on any other class would have been instadeath; the guy got killed by absolute chance > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wish I could play the easy mode too but I don't like thief :( > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I get the feeling you replied to the wrong thing? I mean then again, it seems youre just the newest flavour of burnfall, blind hatred of thief while simultaniously having clearly no clue about thief whatsoever. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again: played thief, left it early on 'cause it was unpunishable and I was disgusted by how deeply easy and with no depth the gameplay was. Thief players on this forum act as if stealth into backstab for 15 minutes until someone dies is high skill cap, I renew my invitation to play a real class -any real class- and see if you can get away with the kitten thief lets you do. > > > > > > > > > > > > Mate I've not even been playing thief in over a year. Im an Engineer player (core engineer specifically, which I'd wager is one of the hardest builds around in general). Thief aint easy. Easier than Engineer, yes, but *anything* that isnt some ele builds is easier than Engineer. > > > > > > > > > > Someone has yet to explain in which universe stealth into backstab for 15 minutes is high skill cap, 'cause for the life of me I can't understand it. > > > > > > > > Because thats just one tiny thing of the many things thief does? Thats like saying "Someone has yet to explain in which universe Plasma Beam into Arcane Blast and Lightning Strike for 15 minutes is high skill cap, 'cause for the life of me I can't understand it." Or hell, Prestige into Cry of Frustration. Because its a stupid statement meant by someone who clearly fails to understand even the absolute fundamentals of thief. > > > > > > Try failing a burst with a d\p thief, then try failing a burst with a fresh air ele, come back to this forum and report to the rest of the community what happens when you fail and CAN'T reset 100 times. > > > > tRy FaiLiNg a BuRsT oN D/P tHiEF anD tHeN Go BuTtOn MaSH oN NeCRo foR 2000% MoRe DaMaGe aNd MoRe SurViVabIliTY, CoMe BacK To ThIs FoRuM aNd RePoRt To ThE ReSt oF the CoMMuNi... CoMmMuni... CoMmUniTttty WhaT HapPenS WhEn yoU faIl and CaN"T ReSet 100 TimEs > > > > how'd I do? > > Imagine thinking necro has better survivability than thief. Good times. It does. Thats not really a question either. Now of course, this is because *survivability* doesnt involve "avoiding every fight". If just not being in a fight counted for survivability, afk spawn mesmer would be the most survivable build in the game. But when it comes to staying in a fight, Necro completely blows theif out of the water.

> @"mixxed.5862" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"mixxed.5862" said: > > > > @"Multicolorhipster.9751" said: > > > > I agree with your 3 major points, A, B, and slightly C. > > > > Fun should take priority over balance. > > > > Build diversity and experimentation should be encouraged. > > > > I think balance changes are good for keeping things sorta fresh, but actual content updates would do more I think. Balance updates usually only reengage interest for about a week(if at all) then its off to some other game. Honestly I think balance patches should be more hands-off than hands-on, and when they do require some hands-on attention, being done in more creative ways that make PvP more enjoyable and don't just shut down a way to play. > > > > > > > > That being said, I don't think sustain needs or needed big nerfs. Aside from the occasional outlier extreme example, it was perfectly fine when damage was still in the game. > > > > The real reason fights drag on forever now isn't because of bunkers have too much sustain, but because both types of damage took a pretty big dive. Toughness, Condi Cleanses, and Vitality all still function exactly the same in a world where damage and condi application is much lower. > > > > You could nerf sustain for every class into the dirt, it's not going to change much if damage is still so low. > > > > Or if you wanted to be even more unreasonable, you could remove even more sustainy amulets to cover up an inability to balance sustain in this low damage slogfest clown fiesta. > > > > > > > > I also agree on your ideas on fun design. > > > > > > > > Unless CMC's philosophy changes, I don't have the same faith. > > > > The Feb25th patch was their passion project. > > > > They were quoted saying: "Buffs in 2020 OMEGALUL" > > > > Unless that changes to: "Buffs in 2021 FeelsGoodMan" then I am terrified. Please hold me MonkaS > > > > > > I entirely agree, balance patches are not enough to keep things fresh and exciting. We need new content and new elite specs, even if they always mess up a lot. > > > > > > The way I'm seeing the whole sustain vs damage debate that sparked from the february patch is probably a bit simplistic. > > > 1) On the one side of the spectrum you have builds that 100 to 0 you in a second. > > > 2) On the other side of the spectrum there are the builds that can handily resustain every burst they eat. > > > Both are definitely unfun and need to be purged. > > > > > > > The thing is that while builds *could* 100 to 0 you, they generally didnt, because you could stop them. The average fight lasted 30 seconds to a minute, and thats a good number to aim for. The good burst was balanced out with good defense and reasonable sustain. > > > > > While we hardly see the former category of builds anymore (which is great), we see too much of the latter. Therefore mostly sustain needs a nerf, although buffing up the damage on some of the CC skills that they made an especially poor job of back in february seems like a good idea. > > > > We dont actually see *any* of the latter. Because there is no point at all. Why go full bunker if you can be unkillable while playing a glass cannon build? The problem is entirely that damage is too low, to the point where you need very little sustain to negate the damage. > > > > > Ideally we even find a good balance for the sidenode meta that way : Where every 1v1 on a side node finds a timely victor. > > > > We had that. It was called the pre-february patch meta. We should just return to it, rather than double down on the current spammer's delight. > > I think it doesn't matter what you call them. The beefy builds have too much sustain right now, they slow down the game by too much. Even if node scrapper has some decent AoE pressure, it's still very much a defense focused build. And even if shout spellbreaker is support first and foremost, it offers too much self-sustain. Nerf 'em! > Those "beefy" builds are glass cannon builds. The damage just isnt there to even kill glass cannons. There isnt any reason to go for a proper bunker build, you just give up damage for nothing. > I remember that pre-february the only way to bunker a node was as a water weaver spaming evades. The damage and burst being put out constantly were on another level. I don't want to go back to that. I still want fights to last for a couple of seconds longer - I believe it's more skillful and fun. Just make the fast-paced and skillful team comps the most rewarding to play again, instead of the slow and sustain-heavy ones. Depends on how you define "bunker". If you mean "able to hold it without *ever* dying no matter what the enemy does", then sure. But thats not healthy in and of itself. Being able to hold a node for a minute though? That was the norm. *Every* sidenoder could do that. As I said, the average fight lasted 30 seconds to a minute. That was more skillful and fun. Now, fights dont end at all until outnumbered. You literally cant die, even if youre a glass cannon. That is boring. So boring that in that big tournament a while back, some players started synchronised dancing instead of 1v1ing because of how pointless it was.

> @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"lightstalker.1498" said: > > > > > > > > > > I would like to see YOU, the one complaining about thief, show casing how thief is OP, and can we see last 10 games played on thief screenshot with at or above 50% win rate? It is a sad state of affairs when devs balance the game around streamers. Some really do nothing else, and I would hope that means they are good at the game, if you get my drift. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure here is a video I made recently. exactly 10 minutes into the video I ambushed by an high rank d/p thief. Although I did defeat the thief in both fights, I think its pretty clear that the thief lost almost by choice. What I mean is, the thief is able to reset over and over trying to get a burst. At the same time, on Mirage my clones run around and almost never actually make contact. The actual kill on the thief is very short using confusion, which is NOT easy. Most of the time these fights go to the thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly 10 minutes into the video my fight with a d/p DD starts. The clip right after is the DDs 2nd attempt which also fails. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you sure this is the video you wanted to show? It seems to me like it shows that even against Thieves best matchup by a wide margin, condi mesmer (Plasma is OP), the thief had absolutely no hope of ever killing you. The best he could do is run away and survive, and if he stayed to fight, he would always have died, as he did in the end. And thats even against a player *clicking* their skills, which is highly inefficient to the point of giving the thief a massive advantage he usually wont have in a fight. Now of course, this is in WvW, not sPvP, so thieves advantage of being the fastest decapper and +1er is non-existent, and yeah, thief isnt any good in WvW, hence why despite the inherent popularity of rogue classes, nowadays you dont see a lot of thieves in WvW. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > various thief players screaming frantically to explain how losing 3/4 times in a row but being basically unpunished 'cause of the hundred thousand save-my-butt buttons (_which they claim *DO NOT* exist_) is balanced, healthy, cool and overall requires thief to be buffed 'cause come on, being able to reset whenever you lose is not enough, you need to be able to deal a kitten ton of damage too > > > > > > > ____ > > > > > > > > Thief is a class with a high skill cap but an absolute kitten pepega took 2:30 minutes of pounding before he finally went down, making mistakes that on any other class would have been instadeath; the guy got killed by absolute chance > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wish I could play the easy mode too but I don't like thief :( > > > > > > > > > > > > I get the feeling you replied to the wrong thing? I mean then again, it seems youre just the newest flavour of burnfall, blind hatred of thief while simultaniously having clearly no clue about thief whatsoever. > > > > > > > > > > Again: played thief, left it early on 'cause it was unpunishable and I was disgusted by how deeply easy and with no depth the gameplay was. Thief players on this forum act as if stealth into backstab for 15 minutes until someone dies is high skill cap, I renew my invitation to play a real class -any real class- and see if you can get away with the kitten thief lets you do. > > > > > > > > Mate I've not even been playing thief in over a year. Im an Engineer player (core engineer specifically, which I'd wager is one of the hardest builds around in general). Thief aint easy. Easier than Engineer, yes, but *anything* that isnt some ele builds is easier than Engineer. > > > > > > Someone has yet to explain in which universe stealth into backstab for 15 minutes is high skill cap, 'cause for the life of me I can't understand it. > > > > Because thats just one tiny thing of the many things thief does? Thats like saying "Someone has yet to explain in which universe Plasma Beam into Arcane Blast and Lightning Strike for 15 minutes is high skill cap, 'cause for the life of me I can't understand it." Or hell, Prestige into Cry of Frustration. Because its a stupid statement meant by someone who clearly fails to understand even the absolute fundamentals of thief. > > Try failing a burst with a d\p thief, then try failing a burst with a fresh air ele, come back to this forum and report to the rest of the community what happens when you fail and CAN'T reset 100 times. So you concede that your original logic was in fact stupid, since you reduced an entire class down to *one* facet of it? That was the whole point.

> @"mixxed.5862" said: > > @"Multicolorhipster.9751" said: > > I agree with your 3 major points, A, B, and slightly C. > > Fun should take priority over balance. > > Build diversity and experimentation should be encouraged. > > I think balance changes are good for keeping things sorta fresh, but actual content updates would do more I think. Balance updates usually only reengage interest for about a week(if at all) then its off to some other game. Honestly I think balance patches should be more hands-off than hands-on, and when they do require some hands-on attention, being done in more creative ways that make PvP more enjoyable and don't just shut down a way to play. > > > > That being said, I don't think sustain needs or needed big nerfs. Aside from the occasional outlier extreme example, it was perfectly fine when damage was still in the game. > > The real reason fights drag on forever now isn't because of bunkers have too much sustain, but because both types of damage took a pretty big dive. Toughness, Condi Cleanses, and Vitality all still function exactly the same in a world where damage and condi application is much lower. > > You could nerf sustain for every class into the dirt, it's not going to change much if damage is still so low. > > Or if you wanted to be even more unreasonable, you could remove even more sustainy amulets to cover up an inability to balance sustain in this low damage slogfest clown fiesta. > > > > I also agree on your ideas on fun design. > > > > Unless CMC's philosophy changes, I don't have the same faith. > > The Feb25th patch was their passion project. > > They were quoted saying: "Buffs in 2020 OMEGALUL" > > Unless that changes to: "Buffs in 2021 FeelsGoodMan" then I am terrified. Please hold me MonkaS > > I entirely agree, balance patches are not enough to keep things fresh and exciting. We need new content and new elite specs, even if they always mess up a lot. > > The way I'm seeing the whole sustain vs damage debate that sparked from the february patch is probably a bit simplistic. > 1) On the one side of the spectrum you have builds that 100 to 0 you in a second. > 2) On the other side of the spectrum there are the builds that can handily resustain every burst they eat. > Both are definitely unfun and need to be purged. > The thing is that while builds *could* 100 to 0 you, they generally didnt, because you could stop them. The average fight lasted 30 seconds to a minute, and thats a good number to aim for. The good burst was balanced out with good defense and reasonable sustain. > While we hardly see the former category of builds anymore (which is great), we see too much of the latter. Therefore mostly sustain needs a nerf, although buffing up the damage on some of the CC skills that they made an especially poor job of back in february seems like a good idea. We dont actually see *any* of the latter. Because there is no point at all. Why go full bunker if you can be unkillable while playing a glass cannon build? The problem is entirely that damage is too low, to the point where you need very little sustain to negate the damage. > Ideally we even find a good balance for the sidenode meta that way : Where every 1v1 on a side node finds a timely victor. We had that. It was called the pre-february patch meta. We should just return to it, rather than double down on the current spammer's delight.

> @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said: > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > Someone has yet to explain in which universe stealth into backstab for 15 minutes is high skill cap, 'cause for the life of me I can't understand it. > > > > Maybe because it requires you to be behind a target? and you get revealed if you fail? And it costs initiative or a utility to gain stealth in the first place? And Backstab does 2k damage which is half of a Reaper auto attack? and it cane be blocked, blinded, negated in every single way like all other abilities that require absolutely no set up at all? And the incredibly short range? need i continue? > > "Behind" = 75% of the FOV. You don't get revealed if you fail. Steath costs ini, but shadow rejuvenation grants a lot of ini regeneration. Backstab doesn't deal 2k; I generically get hit for 5, which for a skill with 0 cost isn't exactly bad Oh boy. So much wrong here. Where to begin. "Behind" is just that. Behind. Its the 180 degrees on their back. Thats still something to keep in mind. "You don't get revealed if you fail", true, but you do get a 1 second cooldown which is a *big* problem. So big that it originally killed stealth attacks alltogether when it came out. "Steath costs ini, but shadow rejuvenation grants a lot of ini regeneration", no it really doesnt. It's essentially 1 initiative per attempt to stealth. It doesnt even come close to recovering the cost. And thats assuming the thief is using it. Backstab doesnt do 2k, but it also doesnt do 5k either. Usually it does 4k. Often times 3k. For a skill with *9 initiative* cost (did you forget stealth isnt free) thats very little.

> @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > > > @"lightstalker.1498" said: > > > > > > > > I would like to see YOU, the one complaining about thief, show casing how thief is OP, and can we see last 10 games played on thief screenshot with at or above 50% win rate? It is a sad state of affairs when devs balance the game around streamers. Some really do nothing else, and I would hope that means they are good at the game, if you get my drift. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure here is a video I made recently. exactly 10 minutes into the video I ambushed by an high rank d/p thief. Although I did defeat the thief in both fights, I think its pretty clear that the thief lost almost by choice. What I mean is, the thief is able to reset over and over trying to get a burst. At the same time, on Mirage my clones run around and almost never actually make contact. The actual kill on the thief is very short using confusion, which is NOT easy. Most of the time these fights go to the thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly 10 minutes into the video my fight with a d/p DD starts. The clip right after is the DDs 2nd attempt which also fails. > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you sure this is the video you wanted to show? It seems to me like it shows that even against Thieves best matchup by a wide margin, condi mesmer (Plasma is OP), the thief had absolutely no hope of ever killing you. The best he could do is run away and survive, and if he stayed to fight, he would always have died, as he did in the end. And thats even against a player *clicking* their skills, which is highly inefficient to the point of giving the thief a massive advantage he usually wont have in a fight. Now of course, this is in WvW, not sPvP, so thieves advantage of being the fastest decapper and +1er is non-existent, and yeah, thief isnt any good in WvW, hence why despite the inherent popularity of rogue classes, nowadays you dont see a lot of thieves in WvW. > > > > > > > > > > ___ > > > > > > > > > > > various thief players screaming frantically to explain how losing 3/4 times in a row but being basically unpunished 'cause of the hundred thousand save-my-butt buttons (_which they claim *DO NOT* exist_) is balanced, healthy, cool and overall requires thief to be buffed 'cause come on, being able to reset whenever you lose is not enough, you need to be able to deal a kitten ton of damage too > > > > > ____ > > > > > > Thief is a class with a high skill cap but an absolute kitten pepega took 2:30 minutes of pounding before he finally went down, making mistakes that on any other class would have been instadeath; the guy got killed by absolute chance > > > > > > > > > > I wish I could play the easy mode too but I don't like thief :( > > > > > > > > I get the feeling you replied to the wrong thing? I mean then again, it seems youre just the newest flavour of burnfall, blind hatred of thief while simultaniously having clearly no clue about thief whatsoever. > > > > > > Again: played thief, left it early on 'cause it was unpunishable and I was disgusted by how deeply easy and with no depth the gameplay was. Thief players on this forum act as if stealth into backstab for 15 minutes until someone dies is high skill cap, I renew my invitation to play a real class -any real class- and see if you can get away with the kitten thief lets you do. > > > > Mate I've not even been playing thief in over a year. Im an Engineer player (core engineer specifically, which I'd wager is one of the hardest builds around in general). Thief aint easy. Easier than Engineer, yes, but *anything* that isnt some ele builds is easier than Engineer. > > Someone has yet to explain in which universe stealth into backstab for 15 minutes is high skill cap, 'cause for the life of me I can't understand it. Because thats just one tiny thing of the many things thief does? Thats like saying "Someone has yet to explain in which universe Plasma Beam into Arcane Blast and Lightning Strike for 15 minutes is high skill cap, 'cause for the life of me I can't understand it." Or hell, Prestige into Cry of Frustration. Because its a stupid statement meant by someone who clearly fails to understand even the absolute fundamentals of thief.

> @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > @"lightstalker.1498" said: > > > > > > I would like to see YOU, the one complaining about thief, show casing how thief is OP, and can we see last 10 games played on thief screenshot with at or above 50% win rate? It is a sad state of affairs when devs balance the game around streamers. Some really do nothing else, and I would hope that means they are good at the game, if you get my drift. > > > > > > > > > > Sure here is a video I made recently. exactly 10 minutes into the video I ambushed by an high rank d/p thief. Although I did defeat the thief in both fights, I think its pretty clear that the thief lost almost by choice. What I mean is, the thief is able to reset over and over trying to get a burst. At the same time, on Mirage my clones run around and almost never actually make contact. The actual kill on the thief is very short using confusion, which is NOT easy. Most of the time these fights go to the thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly 10 minutes into the video my fight with a d/p DD starts. The clip right after is the DDs 2nd attempt which also fails. > > > > > > > > Are you sure this is the video you wanted to show? It seems to me like it shows that even against Thieves best matchup by a wide margin, condi mesmer (Plasma is OP), the thief had absolutely no hope of ever killing you. The best he could do is run away and survive, and if he stayed to fight, he would always have died, as he did in the end. And thats even against a player *clicking* their skills, which is highly inefficient to the point of giving the thief a massive advantage he usually wont have in a fight. Now of course, this is in WvW, not sPvP, so thieves advantage of being the fastest decapper and +1er is non-existent, and yeah, thief isnt any good in WvW, hence why despite the inherent popularity of rogue classes, nowadays you dont see a lot of thieves in WvW. > > > > > > ___ > > > > > > > various thief players screaming frantically to explain how losing 3/4 times in a row but being basically unpunished 'cause of the hundred thousand save-my-butt buttons (_which they claim *DO NOT* exist_) is balanced, healthy, cool and overall requires thief to be buffed 'cause come on, being able to reset whenever you lose is not enough, you need to be able to deal a kitten ton of damage too > > > ____ > > > > Thief is a class with a high skill cap but an absolute kitten pepega took 2:30 minutes of pounding before he finally went down, making mistakes that on any other class would have been instadeath; the guy got killed by absolute chance > > > > > > I wish I could play the easy mode too but I don't like thief :( > > > > I get the feeling you replied to the wrong thing? I mean then again, it seems youre just the newest flavour of burnfall, blind hatred of thief while simultaniously having clearly no clue about thief whatsoever. > > Again: played thief, left it early on 'cause it was unpunishable and I was disgusted by how deeply easy and with no depth the gameplay was. Thief players on this forum act as if stealth into backstab for 15 minutes until someone dies is high skill cap, I renew my invitation to play a real class -any real class- and see if you can get away with the kitten thief lets you do. Mate I've not even been playing thief in over a year. Im an Engineer player (core engineer specifically, which I'd wager is one of the hardest builds around in general). Thief aint easy. Easier than Engineer, yes, but *anything* that isnt some ele builds is easier than Engineer.

> @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > @"lightstalker.1498" said: > > > > I would like to see YOU, the one complaining about thief, show casing how thief is OP, and can we see last 10 games played on thief screenshot with at or above 50% win rate? It is a sad state of affairs when devs balance the game around streamers. Some really do nothing else, and I would hope that means they are good at the game, if you get my drift. > > > > > > Sure here is a video I made recently. exactly 10 minutes into the video I ambushed by an high rank d/p thief. Although I did defeat the thief in both fights, I think its pretty clear that the thief lost almost by choice. What I mean is, the thief is able to reset over and over trying to get a burst. At the same time, on Mirage my clones run around and almost never actually make contact. The actual kill on the thief is very short using confusion, which is NOT easy. Most of the time these fights go to the thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly 10 minutes into the video my fight with a d/p DD starts. The clip right after is the DDs 2nd attempt which also fails. > > > > Are you sure this is the video you wanted to show? It seems to me like it shows that even against Thieves best matchup by a wide margin, condi mesmer (Plasma is OP), the thief had absolutely no hope of ever killing you. The best he could do is run away and survive, and if he stayed to fight, he would always have died, as he did in the end. And thats even against a player *clicking* their skills, which is highly inefficient to the point of giving the thief a massive advantage he usually wont have in a fight. Now of course, this is in WvW, not sPvP, so thieves advantage of being the fastest decapper and +1er is non-existent, and yeah, thief isnt any good in WvW, hence why despite the inherent popularity of rogue classes, nowadays you dont see a lot of thieves in WvW. > > ___ > > > various thief players screaming frantically to explain how losing 3/4 times in a row but being basically unpunished 'cause of the hundred thousand save-my-butt buttons (_which they claim *DO NOT* exist_) is balanced, healthy, cool and overall requires thief to be buffed 'cause come on, being able to reset whenever you lose is not enough, you need to be able to deal a kitten ton of damage too > ____ > > Thief is a class with a high skill cap but an absolute kitten pepega took 2:30 minutes of pounding before he finally went down, making mistakes that on any other class would have been instadeath; the guy got killed by absolute chance > > I wish I could play the easy mode too but I don't like thief :( I get the feeling you replied to the wrong thing? I mean then again, it seems youre just the newest flavour of burnfall, blind hatred of thief while simultaniously having clearly no clue about thief whatsoever.

> @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > > > > > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > > > > > > > Instead of nerfing sustain again, we need to bring damage back up a tad and reduce the cooldown of #2 skills. Both of these changes were done to slow down the game, make choices more deliberate, but they went too far in their intended goal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lower weapon cooldowns, raise damage across the board. Bring damage back to heavily telegraphed CC skills like Executioner's slap, Prime light poke, drop the squeaker, big ol' fart, and backscratcher. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Each of these tweaks should have followed the feb patch. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We've need to stop trying to solve issues by nerfing what's directly in front of our face and instead ask how it got there in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both damage and sustain were so high that attrition style gameplay did not exist. You stacked vitality/thoughness (or both) to survive oneshots, not to deal with pressure. > > > > > > > > > Damage was drasticly lowered in february, and then some. Oneshots are gone from competetive PvP, they are banished to unranked meme build status. > > > > > > > > > Which was the purpose of the patch, good on A-net. However sustain bunkers are a thing now. You sit on the node(often with 1 another bunker buddy of yours), and you rotate through your defenses. It almost doesn't matter whats trying to attack you. As long as you move out of the most concentrated AoE-s and avoid getting 5v2-d, you can easily draw any fight out to eternity. > > > > > > > > > Sustain is too high, period. The gamemode is about holding/contesting nodes, if any build can just sit on it, it's bad for the game. There should be an intricate dance of jumping on/off the capture point to hold, avoiding pressure, faking out bursts, coordinating spikes... not this braindead "lets just tank everything while we spam defensive rotation and heals" that most of my matches with plat 2+ players devolve into. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd propose to shift supports from raw healing towards damage mitigation. Of course every support could still heal some, but guardians could excel at spamming protection/aegis, necromancers could be the king of condition transfers, druids could mix healing with outgoing buffs/mightstacks etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The point would be that once you land damage, it matters. Currently the initial midfight 4v4 can go on for minutes. People dipping below 50%, just to get topped off seconds later. This shouldn't be a thing. Healthbars should generally go downwards. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >snip > > > > > > > > But as I said, Anet went too far with reducing damage, increasing cooldowns, and nerfing damage on crowd control. Every time we reach a point where healthbars generally go downwards, people complain about the class(es) doing the damage. If every sustain decrease is met with an equal or greater damage decrease, the problem will never be fixed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >snip > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The meta we had before was more like an FPS, it was more about predictions and reaction times. Fun, but not really what an MMO should be. So a-net started shifting it towards a different balance, where fights last longer, and lacking superior reaction times can be made up with good tactical decisions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not really? The nature of the sidenoder fights didnt really change. What changed is that fights that lasted 30 seconds to a minute on average now last 15 minutes on average unless +1d. Or in simpler terms, no one dies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > You need way lower damage, and even lower sustain to achive fights last a while but end with someone inevitably running or dying. The current sustain is too high for that. Ever time unranked matchmaking decides im the one fill up that last spot in a match with top 50 premades, I often spend the entire match rotating from fight to fight because we cannot kill anything. Sure healthbars go down, but whoever took my burst and went down to 40%-ish, gets covered in boons and healed back up to full in 2 seconds. > > > > > > > > > > > > No. If you want fights that last a while but end with someone inevitably running or dying, you simply need to revert every non-QoL change made since and including the february megapatch. Its as easy as that. If you just keep trying to cut damage and sustain more, you get a spammy game with no skill or tactics involved, that is so unfathomably boring I cant see why anyone would put themselves through it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > You do not solve this problem by buffing damage back so I can 100-0 instead of 100-40. Neither will a partial revert achive anything, who cares if my target got healed back from 20% instead of 40%? He's back to full... same outcome. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes you do solve the problem by buffing damage back up. In fact, thats the *only* solution. > > > > > > > > > > > > > You solve it by not letting a target fully healing back after taking bursts like that. And that requires a radical cut to raw healing. One thing I liked about thief heals a few years back is how they healed almost nothing. You used Withdraw to evade something, not to actually heal yourself back up. Same with Hide in Shadows, it was mainly tool to maintain stealth... now it heals like double what it used to, just look at its version history. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What the hell are you talking about? Thief heals values *didnt really change* Hide in Shadows got a 15% raw healing buff because no one used it, but to put it in perspective, that changed the total healing from 6000 to 6806. All it got was *800 healing*. Meanwhile Mug provides 2000 healing, and thief doesnt even use it anymore. Thief healing now is *lower* than it was before. And yet thief is just as unkillable. Not because there is too much healing. But because there simply isnt nearly enough damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > So TL,DR: too much raw healing, too much CC. It would do the game good if we cut both in half. > > > > > > > > > > > > In actuality its just too little damage. > > > > > > > > > > I'm honored to be answered twice, one will suffice next time though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I missed that both posts were by you. My bad. > > > > > > > > > Nice long winded way of saying you want oneshot meta damage back. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I find it funny that people keep calling it the "oneshot meta". As if oneshots were a common occurence and not an extreme exception. > > > That was literally all I played. Most of what my friends played. Sure it needed some skill to identify your windows, or to pull off a mesmer shatter combo without using macros, but the person getting deleted within 0.5 seconds(or less, worldy impact oneshot lol) does not really care what goes into it. > > > > And those builds were not very good. Because it turns out if you put all your eggs in one basket, and the enemy then just activates an invuln or block skill, or hell, evades, youre kinda screwed. Funny thing is, you could probably still make builds like that right now. They just still wouldnt be bad. > > > > > So for me it was 100% of my matches which could skew my perception, but most of the time I had to watch out for enemies who could oneshot me, so eh... I'd say it was pretty common in plat 2/3 on EU roughly a year prior to this post. > > > > Being theoretically *able* to oneshot and it being a oneshot meta are 2 very different things. Its theoretically possible to get ToD'd in FighterZ, but that doesnt make FighterZ a ToD game, because it almost never actually happens. The threat is there, but you could avoid it just as easily. Thats why calling it a oneshot meta is silly. > > > You can try to nitpick this point all you want, I got my Ruthless Legend title playing strictly meme oneshots and nothing else. Which meant I was in the upper 10% of seriuos pvp players by doing "theoretical" oneshots and putting them on "theoretical" respawn. A build doesn't even need to be that good once it has the potential to oneshot. If you secured a kill, just being a body on the battlefield for the next 30 seconds means you're outperforming the enemy team who lost one of theirs. > I mean, you basically admitted it yourself. "Meme oneshots". They were memes. But the playerbase is so low and as a result skill ceiling relatively low, that even memes could work. But memes are not the meta. Quite the opposite, thats why theyre called memes. And the meta? Yeah it didnt oneshot very much. Watch back some MaTs from around that time. Unless someone was ganked, they never got oneshot. Even when they were ganked they often weren't. So calling it a oneshot meta is still strictly incorrect. > > > > snip > > > > > Considering that we have a _medium damage&high sustain_ meta, I'd like you to explain how a _medium damage&below medium sustain_ scenario gameplay would be braindead and spammy, compared to what we have now. Cause I'm 100% sure the opposite will happen, so whats your reasoning? > > > > > > > > Yeah except thats not what we have. What we have is a medium-low sustain and *very* low damage meta. Damage right now is below the previous lowest point in the entire games history. What youre proposing is an *extremely* low sustain and *very* low damage meta. What do you think happens when you have a meta like that? Ive played games like that before. Its exactly what I said above. Its the *worst* kind of meta you can have by a wide margin. The only skill-based thing that remains is macro, and good luck getting macro to work in solo Q. > > > > > > Way to not answer the question. Round two: We measure effective damage(only stuff that lands) and we get the value X. We do the same for sustain(this is a hard science people, take notes this will be on the test) and we measure a value above X. Lowering sustain to the extent that its comfortably below X would be an improvement over the current meta according to me. You stated it would have the opposite effect. ELABORATE ON WHY. PLEASE. > > > > I did answer the question. The answer was one that goes against what youre saying, so you ignore it. But if you want that *specific* part answered, and not "is my solution the best possible one?" (its not, its a *lot* worse than just reverting), sure, I can answer that specific part as well. So right now there is obviously *no* skill involved in doing damage. You just spam off cooldown. Now, if you reduce sustain, that doesnt change of course. Doing damage remains entirely skillless. However, right now, since sustain is still actually at least worth a kitten, instead of being essentially non-existent like you propose, there is *some* skill in interrupting key defensive and sustain skills in a situation where you outnumber (in a 1v1 theyre not dying either way). Your suggestion removes that last sliver of skill that exists. At that point all youre doing is turning PvP into little more than an auto-battler. > > So question was: how does lowering sustain below damage is bad for the game? And your answer: because then interrupting healskills is no longer considered a skilled play... What? > Okay there is clearly no strong argument I need to consider here. I was curios just in case I might missed something, but even if I did, that relevation won't be coming from you. > Oh there is. Its just an argument you have no answer to. Though you misrepresented the point. I said that interrupting key defensive and sustain skills in a situation where you outnumber, which is currently the only skilled non-macro play, *would no longer be relevant*. Of course not, if sustain is low enough that the current *pathetic* level of damage can kill them in a 1v1, what do you think that does for 2v1s? Or 3v2s? Yeah suddenly you can just ignore their key cooldowns and kill them through it. Changing it so every part of the game is just a spammers delight. > On dealing damage requiring no skill: the better the enemies are, the harder it is to land damage on them. This is not even up for debate, dealing damage requiring no skill is objectively false, and sadly everything else you derived from this idea is moot aswell. This was an insanely out of touch thing to say, not something I'd expect from someone who's been around as much as you... but hey, I'll be waiting for you in plat 2/3 next season, and you'll get see for yourself what I meant by saying landing damage actually requiring skill! In a vacuum, yes, that would be true. In praxis? Not so much. See the problem is that that part only matters *if damage is high enough*. Here is the deal. Pre-patch that was certainly true. Damage was high, but so was defense. The game was a dance of trying to bait out as many of your enemies key defensive skills to hit your key offensive skills, and maximising the impact of your key defensive skills against their key offensive skills. If you were able to properly open them up, they would take a massive beating, so maximising your DPS was completely irrelevant. You just needed the few good hits that mattered. Which meant you could hold back important skills, and wait for the right timing. Now, lets take a look at the current *super-low* damage meta. Unlike the skillful pre-patch meta, here maximising your DPS is *critical*. Killing enemies takes so long, that delaying even the tiniest bit of damage can really mess you up. And you dont really have "key offensive skills" anymore. Everything doesnt do damage. Which in turn means that there are no "key defensive skills" anymore either. No timing involved anywhere. Instead of a dance of trying to open the enemy up while avoiding being opened up, now both sides have a DPS and a Defense rotation that they use *off cooldown*. Instead of the pre-patch state, which was akin to a fighting game, you now have essentially an auto-battler. You just follow your rotations and the only thing that really ends up mattering is macro. Or you get bored of doing that, and just do a synchronised dance-off with your enemy, like the Holo and Soulbeast in that tournament a while back. Peak skilled PvP, folks. > Happy new year! > Happy new year.

> @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > You may also want to remember how many MORE nerfs Mirage got and hope thief isnt in for a bunch MORE nerfs too cause its still not total garbage. Hell Chrono, at this point, is LUCKY to have gotten self shatters back. Who knows what else Anet may have waiting for thief or any class for that matter. > > > > Do you think Mirage got more nerfs than thief? It didnt. Thief pretty much does nothing outside of being the most mobile, because they didnt touch that for the longest time. That just happens to be the only thing making thief good in PvP. In WvW thief has been trash for a while. > > I remember people thinking Mirage was kitten after they nerfed, axe damage, super speed on MC, MC duration, vigor on MC. They reduced torch damage, they removed or reduced most sources for confusion because Mirage was "too bursty" Then they reduced clones one scepter and staff, changed cooldowns on blink, decoy, and others because it "had no counter". People thought surely that is all, mirage is trash now, but no it continued. they further reduced damage pretty much across the board for mesmer in pvp/wvw, they took away chronos self shatter, Mirages 2nd dodge, and then they nerfed mesmer a little more just before giving chrono back self shatter. Yea I think Mirage has had the most nerfs. impactful nerfs too. It has very few build options now and hey all have hard counters. Sure, Mirage is worse, but it doesnt have more nerfs. No class does.

> @"Moradorin.6217" said: > You may also want to remember how many MORE nerfs Mirage got and hope thief isnt in for a bunch MORE nerfs too cause its still not total garbage. Hell Chrono, at this point, is LUCKY to have gotten self shatters back. Who knows what else Anet may have waiting for thief or any class for that matter. Do you think Mirage got more nerfs than thief? It didnt. Thief pretty much does nothing outside of being the most mobile, because they didnt touch that for the longest time. That just happens to be the only thing making thief good in PvP. In WvW thief has been trash for a while.