About counter skills

[Tayga.3192]

I think this game has quite a lot of very well designed counterpressure skills and effects like shocking aura, blocks with counterattacks, projectile reflects, retaliation and more.

 

However most of them either have high duration, high cooldown and/or are very easily accessable.

 

In my opinion, the best way these can be fixed is the philosophy of "short effect short cooldown" because this actually brings reactive gameplay.

 

In that manner, I propose these changes:

* Retaliation traits and skills should give way less duration and those skills should get CD buffs. If necessary, add short retaliation to defensive skills and remove it from offensive skills.

* Aurashare trait in elementalist should share 75% of the initial duration. Auras, especially shocking aura, are very good ways to peel for your team and they should stay like that.

* Projectile reflects should have way shorter duration (around 2s max) with shorter cooldowns. They should never be passive and invisible like that one mesmer trait.

* Skills that block one attack and do a counterattack (like mesmer scepter 2) should have at most 1s cast time, preferably 3/4s. Buff their damage for compensation.

* Similar to retaliaton, aegis and blind durations should also get nerfed while some of the skills that apply those can get CD buffs. If necessary, add those effects to other fitting skills.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

If you buff the mesmer damage, why not buff auras as well? You run into shocking aura? 1k damage. I mean, if thiefs van fault you for 10k... why not?

[Tayga.3192]

> @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> If you buff the mesmer damage, why not buff auras as well?

I actually considered adding that to the post.

Not sure though.

 

Also it's not only mesmer. It affects warrior, guardian and to a certain extend ranger and daredevil.

[Avatar.3568]

I can say, there is a Lil bit of a problem, I would find it actually if we lower the cd and the duration to be more reactive, but I use my block mostly, if I see there will come now a huge amount of attacks, for the next 2-3 seconds, where I defenetly not can dodge or los (AoE's, mesmer pistol attack, etc...)

 

If we have this, we maybe need to rework most of the skills to be on a shorter duration and to get a shorter cooldown

[Tayga.3192]

> @"Avatar.3568" said:

> If we have this, we maybe need to rework most of the skills to be on a shorter duration and to get a shorter cooldown

Yeah, small effect short cd.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Tayga.3192" said:

> > @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> > If you buff the mesmer damage, why not buff auras as well?

> I actually considered adding that to the post.

> Not sure though.

>

> Also it's not only mesmer. It affects warrior, guardian and to a certain extend ranger and daredevil.

 

Don't listen to this guy, he has a big agenda against thieves and mesmers and hates stealth entirely. He even got most of his posts deleted a week or two ago because he got so hot under the collar about people calling out his baseless vindictiveness.

 

As for the topic I thin everything you listed is actually fine as is and doesn't need adjusting tbh.

[Tayga.3192]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> As for the topic I thin everything you listed is actually fine as is and doesn't need adjusting tbh.

 

They are fine but their "counterplay" way of playing is missing.

For example, guardian has very high retaliation uptime, when do I use my multi hit skills? Instead of this, the guardian should pop his retal when he sees my multi hit attack animation.

 

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Tayga.3192" said:

> I think this game has quite a lot of very well designed counterpressure skills and effects like shocking aura, blocks with counterattacks, projectile reflects, retaliation and more.

>

> However most of them either have high duration, high cooldown and/or are very easily accessable.

>

> In my opinion, the best way these can be fixed is the philosophy of "short effect short cooldown" because this actually brings reactive gameplay.

>

> In that manner, I propose these changes:

> * Retaliation traits and skills should give way less duration and those skills should get CD buffs. If necessary, add short retaliation to defensive skills and remove it from offensive skills.

> * Aurashare trait in elementalist should share 75% of the initial duration. Auras, especially shocking aura, are very good ways to peel for your team and they should stay like that.

> * Projectile reflects should have way shorter duration (around 2s max) with shorter cooldowns. They should never be passive and invisible like that one mesmer trait.

> * Skills that block one attack and do a counterattack (like mesmer scepter 2) should have at most 1s cast time, preferably 3/4s. Buff their damage for compensation.

> * Similar to retaliaton, aegis and blind durations should also get nerfed while some of the skills that apply those can get CD buffs. If necessary, add those effects to other fitting skills.

 

I agree with mesmer reflect trait, it should be

1 more reliable, not a random proc

2 less impactfull, and if that can not be done give it bigger CD

3 more visible.

example, now if you dodge anything you reflect for 2s and then thats it, if you dodge melee hit but 5s mater dodge projectile this trait is useless and did nothing for you, but if you just hit the right CD for the trait you might just reflect every projectile... Make it proc ONLY on doding projectile, lower its duration, make it more visible and inc its cooldown.

Scepter block, I agree with this too, its should be parry not a hold stick and wait 1,5s. make all skills of this type 0,75s cast time, this includes scapter 2, sword 4, mace from warrior, fullcounter. This way you remove some of the safety from dodge/block spamming. Some of them will end up really bad skills ( mace,sword ) then change some things to make them viable, as of right now they are bad anyways, might as well put some work into place where they can be balanced at a later date.

Retal is just a stupid boon in general

 

[Tayga.3192]

@"Leonidrex.5649" I am glad we are on an agreement.

 

 

> Retal is just a stupid boon in general

It's too specific but it's fine imo, we just need to lower retal uptime.

 

[viquing.8254]

> @"Tayga.3192" said:

> I think this game has quite a lot of very well designed counterpressure skills and effects like shocking aura, blocks with counterattacks, projectile reflects, retaliation and more.

>

> However most of them either have high duration, high cooldown and/or are very easily accessable.

>

> In my opinion, the best way these can be fixed is the philosophy of "short effect short cooldown" because this actually brings reactive gameplay.

>

> In that manner, I propose these changes:

> * Retaliation traits and skills should give way less duration and those skills should get CD buffs. If necessary, add short retaliation to defensive skills and remove it from offensive skills.

> * Aurashare trait in elementalist should share 75% of the initial duration. Auras, especially shocking aura, are very good ways to peel for your team and they should stay like that.

> * Projectile reflects should have way shorter duration (around 2s max) with shorter cooldowns. They should never be passive and invisible like that one mesmer trait.

> * Skills that block one attack and do a counterattack (like mesmer scepter 2) should have at most 1s cast time, preferably 3/4s. Buff their damage for compensation.

> * Similar to retaliaton, aegis and blind durations should also get nerfed while some of the skills that apply those can get CD buffs. If necessary, add those effects to other fitting skills.

 

hmm,

Ok for full passive things like retaliation, shock aura, some proj reflects.

 

But you miss :

* Skills that evade + do damage.

* Skills that blind + do damage.

 

Mean in the case of active thinfs like block and do a counterattack, it's a weak version of the 2 behind who are more player dependant than opponent dependant because :

* The opponent can counter it by not procing it.

* The opponent can land unblocable things (and there is many.).

 

Mean you are opponent dependant most of time.

 

Whereas with attack who evade + damage or blind + damage, you lead the dance. (Note that there is class who have the 2 in their toolbar.)

[Tayga.3192]

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> But you miss :

> * Skills that evade + do damage.

> * Skills that blind + do damage.

> Whereas with attack who evade + damage or blind + damage, you lead the dance. (Note that there is class who have the 2 in their toolbar.)

 

They aren't explicitly counterplay skills, they are skills that you can use both defensively and offensively. This is kinda off topic but I'd say they should do less evade/blind and less damage than usual skills because they are very versatile.

 

 

 

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"viquing.8254"

the beef I have with skills like fullcounter/scepter 2 that not procing them is not much of a counter, since its 1,5s of NOT attacking them, meaning they regain their cds/endurance. And there is many occasion where you can hold it for 1-1,5s and then run into aoe to extend it to almost 2s. changing it to 0,75s would be much healthier while also not nerfing the skills all that much, proper use would be equally rewarding as it is now.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Tayga.3192" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > As for the topic I thin everything you listed is actually fine as is and doesn't need adjusting tbh.

>

> They are fine but their "counterplay" way of playing is missing.

> For example, guardian has very high retaliation uptime, when do I use my multi hit skills? Instead of this, the guardian should pop his retal when he sees my multi hit attack animation.

>

 

Retaliation = Remove the boon, use big attacks instead of lots of little ones.

Aura = Stability, attack from outside 600 range, unblockable or use melee, only thing needing addressing is high uptime which is a tempest issue.

Projectile reflects = Go melee or unblockable

Skills that block one attack = Auto them to trigger the counter wasting the block, generally poor numbers scaling (2v1, 3v2, teamfight etc)

Aegis and Blind duration = These only protect vs 1 attack, use an auto or less impactful skill to remove them. Constant application is the issue not durations.

[viquing.8254]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> @"viquing.8254"

> the beef I have with skills like fullcounter/scepter 2 that not procing them is not much of a counter, since its 1,5s of NOT attacking them, meaning they regain their cds/endurance. And there is many occasion where you can hold it for 1-1,5s and then run into aoe to extend it to almost 2s. changing it to 0,75s would be much healthier while also not nerfing the skills all that much, proper use would be equally rewarding as it is now.

 

Yeah but it didn't change the fact that in the case of scepter2 (fullcounter is different because the cc will disable the opponent chain, gives 75% chances to allow a free attack after, it proc some traits, it's melee range and aoe.) :

You have the time to see the block cast, you have the time to counter the counter (0.5 sec.), mean you can proc it, evade after and you are fine he waste his block. Basically when you use scepter 2 you are really opponent dependant, even if you cast it to bloc a high spike, he can react and go to the next attack + it's vulnerable to unblocable.

Whereas with blind/evade attacks, for example shadow shot, Gaz of darkness or surge of the mists, flanking strike : you lead the fight and the opponent haven't plethora of choice to counter it. He even have to sometimes burn a condi clear/breakstunt then a sustain skill to disable the chain combo. Whereas with counter blockn, only a clic is enough to counter it. In terms of opportunities it's way more efficient to have the second kind of sustain than counterblock.

 

What they really have to do is to make the active second chain of block like counterspell way more efficient to create opportunities, not just a "pseudo-passive" bloc who is mainly opponent dependant.

 

BTW it's hard to explain.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"viquing.8254"

> > the beef I have with skills like fullcounter/scepter 2 that not procing them is not much of a counter, since its 1,5s of NOT attacking them, meaning they regain their cds/endurance. And there is many occasion where you can hold it for 1-1,5s and then run into aoe to extend it to almost 2s. changing it to 0,75s would be much healthier while also not nerfing the skills all that much, proper use would be equally rewarding as it is now.

>

> Yeah but it didn't change the fact that in the case of scepter2 (fullcounter is different because the cc will disable the opponent chain, gives 75% chances to allow a free attack after, it proc some traits, it's melee range and aoe.) :

> You have the time to see the block cast, you have the time to counter the counter (0.5 sec.), mean you can proc it, evade after and you are fine he waste his block. Basically when you use scepter 2 you are really opponent dependant, even if you cast it to bloc a high spike, he can react and go to the next attack + it's vulnerable to unblocable.

> Whereas with blind/evade attacks, for example shadow shot, Gaz of darkness or surge of the mists, flanking strike : you lead the fight and the opponent haven't plethora of choice to counter it. He even have to sometimes burn a condi clear/breakstunt then a sustain skill to disable the chain combo. Whereas with counter blockn, only a clic is enough to counter it. In terms of opportunities it's way more efficient to have the second kind of sustain than counterblock.

>

> What they really have to do is to make the active second chain of block like counterspell way more efficient to create opportunities, not just a "pseudo-passive" bloc who is mainly opponent dependant.

>

> BTW it's hard to explain.

 

I understand, its part of like mesmers scepter 2 vs gs3 from warrior that you will see in every scepter vs gs duel.

you use scept 2 to block gs3, you proc it and the clone dies, counterattack misses becouse warrior is evading, you gain nothing, trade cooldowns ( now scepter is longer CD then GS3 so you actually lose on that front ) and scept is actually bugged so you sometimes even get hit during it. AH and you generate heal,endurance and might for warrior so you actually lose the trade.

Mb evade could go to 0,6s from 0,5, mb to 0,7 or 0,75, things can get adjusted, other skills being too strong is no excuse.

If thief dagger 3 spam has no counterplay becouse evade+unblockable then do something about it too.

 

I understand what you mean with the scepter, it does not create an opening unlike full counter, enemies can ignore it, just take it and keep on the offensive, and its actually dangerous becouse there is a hole in the scept block if you get him by more then 1 person it can really be felt, things can get adjusted, scept 2 deals too much dmg.

Buff scepter autos, buff scepter 3 damage, lower scepter 2 damage, and give it blind. Now you can actually make something out of it and push some momentum, at least in 1v1.

And it could be really good change, so that scepter mesmer no longer has to walk into aoe to deal any damage... and low duration blind could make it interesting, nothing.

[Tayga.3192]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> Retaliation = Remove the boon, use big attacks instead of lots of little ones.

> Aura = Stability, attack from outside 600 range, unblockable or use melee, only thing needing addressing is high uptime which is a tempest issue.

> Projectile reflects = Go melee or unblockable

> Skills that block one attack = Auto them to trigger the counter wasting the block, generally poor numbers scaling (2v1, 3v2, teamfight etc)

> Aegis and Blind duration = These only protect vs 1 attack, use an auto or less impactful skill to remove them. Constant application is the issue not durations.

 

Counterplay to them exists, I am not saying they are too strong. I just want those skills to BE the counterplay instead.

[Vancho.8750]

Wish there was something to counter idiotic AoE circle spam.

[Tayga.3192]

> @"Vancho.8750" said:

> Wish there was something to counter idiotic AoE circle spam.

 

Technically retal counters pulsing aoes and blind/aegis counters treshold aoes.

 

I get where you are coming though.

[Ovark.2514]

IMO the problem with these types of abilities is that they have no drawbacks. Why block as a warrior and lose DPS when you could reflect instead?

[Tayga.3192]

> @"Ovark.2514" said:

> IMO the problem with these types of abilities is that they have no drawbacks. Why block as a warrior and lose DPS when you could reflect instead?

 

Thing is, they are supposed to be THE counterplays. We don't need counter-counters.

[Vancho.8750]

> @"Tayga.3192" said:

> > @"Ovark.2514" said:

> > IMO the problem with these types of abilities is that they have no drawbacks. Why block as a warrior and lose DPS when you could reflect instead?

>

> Thing is, they are supposed to be THE counterplays. We don't need counter-counters.

Well they are not counters they are just visual spam that is way too effective in the damage and the cc department. If you spam your skills you should be punished. Now it is fire and forget and spam those circles. Too many lingering shit in this game.

Do you know what it they counter the fucking fun of the game.

 

[apharma.3741]

> @"Tayga.3192" said:

> > @"Ovark.2514" said:

> > IMO the problem with these types of abilities is that they have no drawbacks. Why block as a warrior and lose DPS when you could reflect instead?

>

> Thing is, they are supposed to be THE counterplays. We don't need counter-counters.

 

Rock, Paper, Scissors.

 

Just because they have a counter doesn't mean they are not a counter to something else which might counter what counters the abilities. Think of it like a circle that isn't an arms race unlike revealed to stealth and then reveal removal to stealth.

[Tayga.3192]

> @"Vancho.8750" said:

> Well they are not counters they are just visual spam that is way too effective in the damage and the cc department. If you spam your skills you should be punished. Now it is fire and forget and spam those circles. Too many lingering kitten in this game.

> Do you know what it they counter the kitten fun of the game.

 

Yeah this post is about those "lingering" on stuff like 20s retaliation, 2s block, 5s blind, 7s reflect etc.

AoE skills except reflects etc, however, are not in this post's range.

[Tayga.3192]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> Rock, Paper, Scissors.

>

> Just because they have a counter doesn't mean they are not a counter to something else which might counter what counters the abilities. Think of it like a circle that isn't an arms race unlike revealed to stealth and then reveal removal to stealth.

 

Reveal removal is also bad though, I can't remember one game where counter counters are healthy.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Tayga.3192" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > Rock, Paper, Scissors.

> >

> > Just because they have a counter doesn't mean they are not a counter to something else which might counter what counters the abilities. Think of it like a circle that isn't an arms race unlike revealed to stealth and then reveal removal to stealth.

>

> Reveal removal is also bad though, I can't remember one game where counter counters are healthy.

 

I was using reveal removal as an example of arms race style counter the counter but it's just better.