Brutal Shot issue. Flip the order of the attack and the dodge and lower the cast time.

[Sobx.1758]

I think the key word here was "into you", not "get close to you". Reducing the cast time would most likely be enough to make it more responsive/reliable/easly interruptable, which in my opinion was the point of that change? Also the skill has 1200 range, it's not like you're bound to use it point-blank (which still works at that range just fine).

If the skill is bugged and it's intended to not go on cooldown in that situation (that's not the only skill that does that), then maybe instead they can **fix the kitten bug**.

 

 

Not much to say here btw, I just like the shoot into dodge order more, that's entirely the matter of personal preference. :D

[Smoosh.2718]

The main gripe i have with shoot then dodge, is that its not reactionary. It is like you've gone to do damage then had a brain fart realising you actually need to dodge.

 

Being that this bug happens on many ranged skills when the target walks into you, this suggests that this will not be an easy fix. So logically fixing a gap making skill to not be effected, would be most logical.

[cryorion.9532]

Evade then shot is more practical because it is better for reactive gameplay. Shot then evade is impractical because enemy is immobilized when you are in evade frame, and that is pretty useless. Dodge then immobilize lets you do immediately other attack while enemy is immobilized, as you just evaded their attack. This seems much more practical. The evade can be instant and the shot after can have 1/4 cast time.

 

Also, Rifle Butt needs to be pbaoe, the skill sometimes does not connect with target.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> Evade then shot is more practical because it is better for reactive gameplay. Shot then evade is impractical because enemy is immobilized when you are in evade frame, and that is pretty useless. Dodge then immobilize lets you do immediately other attack while enemy is immobilized, as you just evaded their attack. This seems much more practical. The evade can be instant and the shot after can have 1/4 cast time.

 

With that change there's no good reason to lower the cast time, the evade would be instant first, which is what counts for the reactive nature of the skill and then the cast of the shot/root might as well remain 1/2s btw.

 

> Also, Rifle Butt needs to be pbaoe, the skill sometimes does not connect with target.

 

Cone would be k

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > Evade then shot is more practical because it is better for reactive gameplay. Shot then evade is impractical because enemy is immobilized when you are in evade frame, and that is pretty useless. Dodge then immobilize lets you do immediately other attack while enemy is immobilized, as you just evaded their attack. This seems much more practical. The evade can be instant and the shot after can have 1/4 cast time.

>

> With that change there's no good reason to lower the cast time, the evade would be instant first, which is what counts for the reactive nature of the skill and then the cast of the shot/root might as well remain 1/2s btw.

>

> > Also, Rifle Butt needs to be pbaoe, the skill sometimes does not connect with target.

>

> Cone would be k

 

Anything would be better.

[Antipode.7830]

Wanted to chime in that, aesthetically, I like the animation and prefer shoot first. I just don't think it achieves the given purpose that way, nor will it even if it's faster. Maybe if it was followed by a much longer roll/evade that would be something, but as is... nah

[cryorion.9532]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > Evade then shot is more practical because it is better for reactive gameplay. Shot then evade is impractical because enemy is immobilized when you are in evade frame, and that is pretty useless. Dodge then immobilize lets you do immediately other attack while enemy is immobilized, as you just evaded their attack. This seems much more practical. The evade can be instant and the shot after can have 1/4 cast time.

>

> With that change there's no good reason to lower the cast time, the evade would be instant first, which is what counts for the reactive nature of the skill and then the cast of the shot/root might as well remain 1/2s btw.

 

I guess, also faster cast time is easier to implement than reworking whole skill animation, so I guess it is much more likely to happen.

[Smoosh.2718]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> I guess, also faster cast time is easier to implement than reworking whole skill animation, so I guess it is much more likely to happen.

 

 

This will still result in having a skill break and go into cooldown when someone walks into you. Flipping the order of the effects will work in everyones favour, you'll be able to use the skill reactionary and create distance with the target which walked into you.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Smoosh.2718" said:

> > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > I guess, also faster cast time is easier to implement than reworking whole skill animation, so I guess it is much more likely to happen.

>

>

> This will still result in having a skill break and go into cooldown when someone walks into you. Flipping the order of the effects will work in everyones favour, you'll be able to use the skill reactionary and create distance with the target which walked into you.

 

I'm convinced that if you use a 1/4 sec cast time skill while someone is "inside your character" then vast majority of the time (pretty much just outside of some "freak accidents") it's entirely your own fault though. :p

Seriously, this starts to remind me the time when people cried about berk having cast time (1/4s), because "it will be constantly interrupted".

[Smoosh.2718]

It's not though, I've had it happen when someone teleports behind you, making the skill fail to go off and go on cooldown.

 

Flipping the order of the skill will give it the function its meant to have, a reaction dodge skill.

[Sobx.1758]

So you're saying you got outplayed and that's wrong, ok :p

[Smoosh.2718]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> So you're saying you got outplayed and that's wrong, ok :p

 

It's not though really. A skill that is meant to create distance and evade should not be put on cool down due to a target going into you.

 

The skill in its current state is fundamentally flawed and will always be that way if the order of shot then dodge stays the same.

 

 

I dont know why you want to spin this from a game mechanic issue to an L2P arguement. If you can not contribute anything constructive, no longer continue.

[DemonSeed.3528]

I'm quite used to shoot then evade, it's like when casting staff fire 5 and then 4 on ele in a way. Many people also use the tactic of going into player/behind to deny the shot/skill. I also remember rifle on engi was changed not to shoot behind on one of the skills so I can't really imagine it's not some kind of counterplay. As for skills going on CD without going off, this is a problem afflicting some classes for a very long time until now (thief steal/swipe for example, even when you are in range but patching or some small grass etc stops it) but I do think if there is a change to be applied, the shot can be denied but at least make the dodge occur whether or not the shot happened. All that needs to change is that the dodge go off reliably imo, not necessarily the order.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Smoosh.2718" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > So you're saying you got outplayed and that's wrong, ok :p

>

> It's not though really. A skill that is meant to create distance and evade should not be put on cool down due to a target going into you.

>

> The skill in its current state is fundamentally flawed and will always be that way if the order of shot then dodge stays the same.

>

>

> I dont know why you want to spin this from a game mechanic issue to an L2P arguement. If you can not contribute anything constructive, no longer continue.

 

It really is though. With longer cast times it's kind of understandable, but with 1/4s cast you have no excuse for using the skill at the wrong time -outside of something like bullkitten invisible walls on flat terrain, you're the one to blame. The fact that the skill goes on cd is just equivalent to no safety net to me.

 

And stop saying "it's not constructive" just because you disagree with me. Evidently I disagree with your opinion, does that make your posts non-constructive, so you should no longer continue?

[Smoosh.2718]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> And stop saying "it's not constructive" just because you disagree with me. Evidently I disagree with your opinion, does that make your posts non-constructive, so you should no longer continue?

 

 

"So you're saying you got outplayed and that's wrong, ok :P"

 

Is not constructive at all in the slightest.

 

The skill is clunky and does not function as an evade skill. Please bear in mind they tacked on the evade skill to make it 'worth using'.

 

Lets use a PvE example here, Invisible Mushrooms, they will every 10-15s jump backwards through your character, this as a result can completly stop your skill from going off and put it on full cooldown.

 

If you can bring up a reason why it shouldn't be changed other than 'you got outplayed' please, enlighten me. Because clearly, a skill should not be put on full cooldown without even doing a single thing.

 

Evading then attacking means that the skill will always go off. This is kinda what we all want right? reliable skills.

 

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Smoosh.2718" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > And stop saying "it's not constructive" just because you disagree with me. Evidently I disagree with your opinion, does that make your posts non-constructive, so you should no longer continue?

>

>

> "So you're saying you got outplayed and that's wrong, ok :P"

>

> Is not constructive at all in the slightest.

>

> The skill is clunky and does not function as an evade skill. Please bear in mind they tacked on the evade skill to make it 'worth using'.

>

> Lets use a PvE example here, Invisible Mushrooms, they will every 10-15s jump backwards through your character, this as a result can completly stop your skill from going off and put it on full cooldown.

>

 

 

I was typing everything from the perspective of already potentially changed skill with 1/4s cast time (which I thought **was clearly mentioned in the same post?**) and you answer to that with "someone teleported behind me!". How is this a "constructive answer", when I say it's about a shorter cast time skill, AT WHICH POINT you will have noone to blame, but yourself? If someone teleports/walks into you predicting your 1/4s cast time then you got outplayed and there's not much to discuss here. It seems you don't understand what you're responding to, so you get defensive and tell me to "no longer continue". The skill might be clunky, which is why I say it could use cast time reduction, at which point it should not be "clunky". Then if you use it while positioned terribly, it. is. on. you. What about that is not clear exactly?

As I said, this really reminds me of the time when some people complained about berk having cast time, because it "could be interrupted". That's just stupid.

 

 

 

 

 

 

> If you can bring up a reason why it shouldn't be changed other than 'you got outplayed' please, enlighten me. Because clearly, a skill should not be put on full cooldown without even doing a single thing.

>

> Evading then attacking means that the skill will always go off. This is kinda what we all want right? reliable skills.

 

I didn't say the skill shouldn't be changed at all, but I said lowering cast time should be enough. I also already said why in the post above:

*It really is though. With longer cast times it's kind of understandable, but with 1/4s cast you have no excuse for using the skill at the wrong time -outside of something like bullkitten invisible walls on flat terrain, you're the one to blame. The fact that the skill goes on cd is just equivalent to no safety net to me.*"

 

It doesn't mean you have to agree with me, but sure as hell it doesn't mean it's not constructive just because you disagree. You want a safety net everywhere, I don't.

[Smoosh.2718]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

 

Skills not going off and going on full cool down, in my eyes and probably even the devs eyes is a bug. So there is no justification for that to happen.

 

A skill that has been reworked to become an evade skill, should act as an evade skill. If we look to Rangers Short Bow, namely Quick Shot this both evades and attacks at the same time. This skill even if the target passes through you still goes off. Sometimes you will notice the skill not moving you from the spot you were at, but the evade is still carried out. Which means the skill is effective in being a reactionary evade skill. This is not the same with Brutal shot, as a result the skill does not provide a reliable function.

 

 

[Lighter.5631]

evade then fire is great idea, right now even pre nerf, the immob finishes after you do the evade, making the immob pointless

[Sobx.1758]

The immob was added with evade, the duration isn't a coincidence.

[Lighter.5631]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> The immob was added with evade, the duration isn't a coincidence.

 

yes, because they are added at the same time that it makes sense, god this logic is so flawed and pointless.

why don't you just say this game is perfectly balanced because it's released LOL

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Lighter.5631" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > The immob was added with evade, the duration isn't a coincidence.

>

> yes, because they are added at the same time that it makes sense, god this logic is so flawed and pointless.

> why don't you just say this game is perfectly balanced because it's released LOL

 

That's not even close to what I've said.

[Inguz.6493]

IMO just make it instant (animation wise, shot first), and do it to Rifle Butt too. Rifle damage is lackluster, and since it's not powerful enough for PvE just make it semi-viable in lower tiers of PvP. Rifle Butt compared to Kick, which also has half a second cast time and does the same thing, cannot really be compared. Kick has utility in team fights to get people away from finishing a teammate or reviving someone, in that scenario the cast time is justified. But as a kiting tool or in general to knock people down from ledges or the like, it's just too slow.

[Tycura.1982]

Make it pretty much identical to the Charr racial skill. Ezpz.