Soulbeast 2.0 Rework! You'll love it too!

[Swagger.1459]

Edit- Some musical inspiration to listen to while working on the new Soulbeast!!! Enjoy!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here is the Condition Dagger Soulbeast 2.0 build that would be super nice of the devs to consider working on! And I’m asking for this stuff because Soulbeast was designed to be a Condition Melee spec (see these? https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_the_Soulbeast, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Soulbeast_Pads, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Soulbeast%27s_Dagger, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fang_of_Mokèlé), and it would be really awesome to have a decent, working, AND FUN Condition Melee spec to use in WvW and Spvp!

 

**STUFF WE NEED TO ACCOMPANY THE SOULBEAST REWORK**

- We need improvements to our condition builds https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/102109/can-we-please-have-some-qol-improvements

 

- ALL pets need standard buffs of https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Swiftness AND https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Quickness. Later the team can fix the skills that miss targets completely, as mentioned in one of my other posts... https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/102254/psa-on-major-pet-issues

 

- Nerf the very few pet skills that pvpers shed tears over.

 

- Soulbeast get 2 pets back.

 

- We don’t need the extra https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Attribute bonuses when merged, because we keep getting our profession screwed over because of it.

 

**MECHANICS**

 

- https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Beastmode - Same

 

- https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Leave_Beastmode – Same

 

**DAGGERS**

 

- 1 https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Groundwork_Gouge - 3 targets. 600 range leap attack.

 

- 1.2 https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Leading_Swipe - 3 targets

 

- REMOVE https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Serpent_Stab

 

- 1.3 https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deadly_Delivery – 3 targets

 

- 2 https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Double_Arc – 3 targets. ADD AMMO Mechanics… “This skill has a maximum count of 2.”

 

- 3 https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Instinctive_Engage – 3 targets. 600 range leap attack (This skill has a maximum count of 2.)

 

- 4 https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stalker%27s_Strike – 3 targets. 600 range CHARGE attack that ends with a “Pounces on Foes” attack. Same 1¼s evade. ADD IN "removes movement impairing conditions" cleanse. REMOVE… “This attack deals increased damage and poison against movement-impaired foes.”

 

- 5 https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crippling_Talon RENAMED to “Silent Predator”. 3 targets. This skill is a 1,200 range PORT attack that STEALTHS the user AND also https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stun_break (THE PORT CAN PASS THOUGH WALLS AND MOVE THE PLAYER ON CLIFFS JUST LIKE OTHER PORT SKILLS). The Stealth skills is special, just like the https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Juvenile_Jaguar Stealth skill https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stalk with a 6s duration. See this too… https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stalking “Stalking is provided by the Juvenile Jaguar's activated skill, Stalk. It renders the jaguar invisible, like stealth, but does not end early upon hitting a foe.”

 

**TRAIT**

- https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Leader_of_the_Pack - ADD IN- "STANCE SKILLS GAIN REDUCED RECHARGE" PLEASE. The stance skills are so ungodly long that I don’t even want to touch them. It doesn’t make sense to me that we’d have a fast paced game design, where you can STILL get killed super fast, but with ultra long skill recharges… AWEFUL. NOT FUN.

 

 

 

[Abyssisis.3971]

MH Dagger still needs to be able to disable a foe in order to proc twice as vicious, rather than having to rely on being merged with a pet that has an ability to proc it.

[Kodama.6453]

They won't give soulbeast 2 pets back, accept it. Elite specs are supposed to have trade offs, a permanent disadvantage compared to the core class to warrant them getting new mechanics added to the table.

 

If you want the second pet back so badly, then suggest a new trade off for the soulbeast that makes sense both gameplaywise and thematically (removing the second pet achieves both of these points). And no, not getting the stats from your pet in the merged form does not count as a trade off.

[Swagger.1459]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> They won't give soulbeast 2 pets back, accept it. Elite specs are supposed to have trade offs, a permanent disadvantage compared to the core class to warrant them getting new mechanics added to the table.

>

> If you want the second pet back so badly, then suggest a new trade off for the soulbeast that makes sense both gameplaywise and thematically (removing the second pet achieves both of these points). And no, not getting the stats from your pet in the merged form does not count as a trade off.

 

What is the trade off for Deadeye? What is the trade off for FB? What is the trade off for the supertank regen and barrier weaver? What is the trade off for the renegade condi build, with 2 weapons, 2 heals, 2 sets of slot skills... that pumps out more condi damage in pvp modes? Hmmm?

 

And we have a ton of trade offs already. Most of everything on Ranger stinks and our forced mechanic has had the same issues since alpha... You need me to find the interview with the devs about pet issues from 10 years ago? Want me to list all the junk stuff and skills and traits and builds for pvp modes?

[Kodama.6453]

> @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > They won't give soulbeast 2 pets back, accept it. Elite specs are supposed to have trade offs, a permanent disadvantage compared to the core class to warrant them getting new mechanics added to the table.

> >

> > If you want the second pet back so badly, then suggest a new trade off for the soulbeast that makes sense both gameplaywise and thematically (removing the second pet achieves both of these points). And no, not getting the stats from your pet in the merged form does not count as a trade off.

>

> What is the trade off for Deadeye? What is the trade off for FB? What is the trade off for the supertank regen and barrier weaver? What is the trade off for the renegade condi build, with 2 weapons, 2 heals, 2 sets of slot skills... that pumps out more condi damage in pvp modes? Hmmm?

>

> And we have a ton of trade offs already. Most of everything on Ranger stinks and our forced mechanic has had the same issues since alpha... You need me to find the interview with the devs about pet issues from 10 years ago? Want me to list all the junk stuff and skills and traits and builds for pvp modes?

 

**Deadeye**: Replacing the core F1 ability (Steal) with the Deadeye's Mark, losing access to a gap closer this way as well as it's unique stolen skills.

 

**Firebrand**: Replacing all their instant cast core virtues (F1-F3) with the tomes.

 

**Weaver**: Replacing all of their mainhand #3 weapon skills and losing immediate access to their offhand attunements (need to cycle through 2 attunements to get access to the offhand weapon skills instead of just 1).

 

**Renegade**: Losing access to the core F2 ability (Ancient Echo) and replacing it with Citadel Order skills.

 

Replacing core mechanic skills is actually the most common trade off installed by Anet. Engineers are replacing their F5 abilities for both elite specs. Necromancers are replacing their Death Shroud for both elite specs.

 

There is only 1 elite spec left without any real trade off by Anet's definition: Tempest

Tempest doesn't lose anything compared to the core elementalist as long as they choose not to use their overload mechanic. All other elite specs are trading something from their core mechanics permanently, they don't get this choice. I hope they will introduce a real trade off for the tempests soon, too.

 

And trying to sell flaws of your core class as the trade off doesn't make sense.... Accept it, the design philosophy is that you give up something from the core class permanently. Before the removal of in combat pet swap from the soulbeast, you didn't trade anything for the new mechanic. You just got a button added to merge with your pet, you got another choice to your skill tablet and still had everything available that the core ranger could use, too.

[Cyric.7813]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > > They won't give soulbeast 2 pets back, accept it. Elite specs are supposed to have trade offs, a permanent disadvantage compared to the core class to warrant them getting new mechanics added to the table.

> > >

> > > If you want the second pet back so badly, then suggest a new trade off for the soulbeast that makes sense both gameplaywise and thematically (removing the second pet achieves both of these points). And no, not getting the stats from your pet in the merged form does not count as a trade off.

> >

> > What is the trade off for Deadeye? What is the trade off for FB? What is the trade off for the supertank regen and barrier weaver? What is the trade off for the renegade condi build, with 2 weapons, 2 heals, 2 sets of slot skills... that pumps out more condi damage in pvp modes? Hmmm?

> >

> > And we have a ton of trade offs already. Most of everything on Ranger stinks and our forced mechanic has had the same issues since alpha... You need me to find the interview with the devs about pet issues from 10 years ago? Want me to list all the junk stuff and skills and traits and builds for pvp modes?

>

> **Deadeye**: Replacing the core F1 ability (Steal) with the Deadeye's Mark, losing access to a gap closer this way as well as it's unique stolen skills.

>

> **Firebrand**: Replacing all their instant cast core virtues (F1-F3) with the tomes.

>

> **Weaver**: Replacing all of their mainhand #3 weapon skills and losing immediate access to their offhand attunements (need to cycle through 2 attunements to get access to the offhand weapon skills instead of just 1).

>

> **Renegade**: Losing access to the core F2 ability (Ancient Echo) and replacing it with Citadel Order skills.

>

 

rifleman - gap closer)

fb -15 skills instead 3

renegade - 3 skills instead 1

 

 

[Kodama.6453]

> @"Cyric.7813" said:

> > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > > @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > > > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > > > They won't give soulbeast 2 pets back, accept it. Elite specs are supposed to have trade offs, a permanent disadvantage compared to the core class to warrant them getting new mechanics added to the table.

> > > >

> > > > If you want the second pet back so badly, then suggest a new trade off for the soulbeast that makes sense both gameplaywise and thematically (removing the second pet achieves both of these points). And no, not getting the stats from your pet in the merged form does not count as a trade off.

> > >

> > > What is the trade off for Deadeye? What is the trade off for FB? What is the trade off for the supertank regen and barrier weaver? What is the trade off for the renegade condi build, with 2 weapons, 2 heals, 2 sets of slot skills... that pumps out more condi damage in pvp modes? Hmmm?

> > >

> > > And we have a ton of trade offs already. Most of everything on Ranger stinks and our forced mechanic has had the same issues since alpha... You need me to find the interview with the devs about pet issues from 10 years ago? Want me to list all the junk stuff and skills and traits and builds for pvp modes?

> >

> > **Deadeye**: Replacing the core F1 ability (Steal) with the Deadeye's Mark, losing access to a gap closer this way as well as it's unique stolen skills.

> >

> > **Firebrand**: Replacing all their instant cast core virtues (F1-F3) with the tomes.

> >

> > **Weaver**: Replacing all of their mainhand #3 weapon skills and losing immediate access to their offhand attunements (need to cycle through 2 attunements to get access to the offhand weapon skills instead of just 1).

> >

> > **Renegade**: Losing access to the core F2 ability (Ancient Echo) and replacing it with Citadel Order skills.

> >

>

> rifleman - gap closer)

> fb -15 skills instead 3

> renegade - 3 skills instead 1

>

>

 

Yes, firebrand and renegade gain more skills than they give up. And?

They still give up a skill permanently, it is no longer available for them. That is Anet's definition of a trade off, it is quite obvious.

Holosmith is also considered having a trade off by Anet, even if they just trade the F5 skill for 5 new skills with the holoforge. That's how it is, even if you personally disagree with it.

 

Also not entirely sure what you mean with "rifleman", can you please elaborate?

[shadowpass.4236]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > @"Cyric.7813" said:

> > > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > > > @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > > > > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > > > > They won't give soulbeast 2 pets back, accept it. Elite specs are supposed to have trade offs, a permanent disadvantage compared to the core class to warrant them getting new mechanics added to the table.

> > > > >

> > > > > If you want the second pet back so badly, then suggest a new trade off for the soulbeast that makes sense both gameplaywise and thematically (removing the second pet achieves both of these points). And no, not getting the stats from your pet in the merged form does not count as a trade off.

> > > >

> > > > What is the trade off for Deadeye? What is the trade off for FB? What is the trade off for the supertank regen and barrier weaver? What is the trade off for the renegade condi build, with 2 weapons, 2 heals, 2 sets of slot skills... that pumps out more condi damage in pvp modes? Hmmm?

> > > >

> > > > And we have a ton of trade offs already. Most of everything on Ranger stinks and our forced mechanic has had the same issues since alpha... You need me to find the interview with the devs about pet issues from 10 years ago? Want me to list all the junk stuff and skills and traits and builds for pvp modes?

> > >

> > > **Deadeye**: Replacing the core F1 ability (Steal) with the Deadeye's Mark, losing access to a gap closer this way as well as it's unique stolen skills.

> > >

> > > **Firebrand**: Replacing all their instant cast core virtues (F1-F3) with the tomes.

> > >

> > > **Weaver**: Replacing all of their mainhand #3 weapon skills and losing immediate access to their offhand attunements (need to cycle through 2 attunements to get access to the offhand weapon skills instead of just 1).

> > >

> > > **Renegade**: Losing access to the core F2 ability (Ancient Echo) and replacing it with Citadel Order skills.

> > >

> >

> > rifleman - gap closer)

> > fb -15 skills instead 3

> > renegade - 3 skills instead 1

> >

> >

>

> Yes, firebrand and renegade gain more skills than they give up. And?

> They still give up a skill permanently, it is no longer available for them. That is Anet's definition of a trade off, it is quite obvious.

> Holosmith is also considered having a trade off by Anet, even if they just trade the F5 skill for 5 new skills with the holoforge. That's how it is, even if you personally disagree with it.

>

> Also not entirely sure what you mean with "rifleman", can you please elaborate?

 

Those specs gain those benefits permanently.

 

Soulbeast only gains merge skills when we give up our pet for it. And we gain 3 skills in exchange for 4. In other words, we give up pet skills 50% of the time to gain our merge skills the other 50% of the time compared to FB which gives up virtues permanently in exchange for tomes permanently.

 

And the tradeoff for Holosmith is the overheat mechanic. Which, funnily enough, will never effect them as long as they manage their heat properly (which isn't even hard to do).

[LughLongArm.5460]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > > They won't give soulbeast 2 pets back, accept it. Elite specs are supposed to have trade offs, a permanent disadvantage compared to the core class to warrant them getting new mechanics added to the table.

> > >

> > > If you want the second pet back so badly, then suggest a new trade off for the soulbeast that makes sense both gameplaywise and thematically (removing the second pet achieves both of these points). And no, not getting the stats from your pet in the merged form does not count as a trade off.

> >

> > What is the trade off for Deadeye? What is the trade off for FB? What is the trade off for the supertank regen and barrier weaver? What is the trade off for the renegade condi build, with 2 weapons, 2 heals, 2 sets of slot skills... that pumps out more condi damage in pvp modes? Hmmm?

> >

> > And we have a ton of trade offs already. Most of everything on Ranger stinks and our forced mechanic has had the same issues since alpha... You need me to find the interview with the devs about pet issues from 10 years ago? Want me to list all the junk stuff and skills and traits and builds for pvp modes?

>

> **Deadeye**: Replacing the core F1 ability (Steal) with the Deadeye's Mark, losing access to a gap closer this way as well as it's unique stolen skills.

>

> **Firebrand**: Replacing all their instant cast core virtues (F1-F3) with the tomes.

>

> **Weaver**: Replacing all of their mainhand #3 weapon skills and losing immediate access to their offhand attunements (need to cycle through 2 attunements to get access to the offhand weapon skills instead of just 1).

>

> **Renegade**: Losing access to the core F2 ability (Ancient Echo) and replacing it with Citadel Order skills.

>

> Replacing core mechanic skills is actually the most common trade off installed by Anet. Engineers are replacing their F5 abilities for both elite specs. Necromancers are replacing their Death Shroud for both elite specs.

>

> There is only 1 elite spec left without any real trade off by Anet's definition: Tempest

> Tempest doesn't lose anything compared to the core elementalist as long as they choose not to use their overload mechanic. All other elite specs are trading something from their core mechanics permanently, they don't get this choice. I hope they will introduce a real trade off for the tempests soon, too.

>

> And trying to sell flaws of your core class as the trade off doesn't make sense.... Accept it, the design philosophy is that you give up something from the core class permanently. Before the removal of in combat pet swap from the soulbeast, you didn't trade anything for the new mechanic. You just got a button added to merge with your pet, you got another choice to your skill tablet and still had everything available that the core ranger could use, too.

 

There are levels to what you would call "replacements" to be considered as a legit trade off.

 

For example, "Firebrand". when you maintain your passive virtue power while getting much much stronger active virtue effect, you can't call it a real trade-off. Soul-beasts always used arguments like that their trad-off is losing the pets while in Beast-mode from, and I always told thme that this is not a real trade-off. Same for druid losing weapons skills while in CA form, not a real trade-off. Losing one pet or having weakened pets regardless , is a real-trade off. Like that, many examples you gave are not a real trade-ff. Firebrand/Tempset are obviously shining examples. Firebrand should lose the passive virtue effect or at-least have a weakened version of it.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Put me in the camp of people who don't think FBs have a true tradeoff... Way too much is gained from those tomes. They need a stat penalty in there somewhere.

 

As to the OP. You aren't getting a second pet back, however you are right in that SB is supposed to be a melee condi spec, but no plays that. MH dagger does need to be updated, mostly with better built in gap closing and CC. They halved the attribute gain from Beastmastery, which was the right thing to do.

 

The traits in Soulbeast need changing as well to better support the melee condi style, and less boonbeast. Fresh Reinforcement is part of the problem and should be replaced with something that better supports the melee condi playstyle as there is nothing other than boon support in that tier right now. This would also curb Boonbeast.

[Kodama.6453]

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > > @"Cyric.7813" said:

> > > > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > > > > > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > > > > > They won't give soulbeast 2 pets back, accept it. Elite specs are supposed to have trade offs, a permanent disadvantage compared to the core class to warrant them getting new mechanics added to the table.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If you want the second pet back so badly, then suggest a new trade off for the soulbeast that makes sense both gameplaywise and thematically (removing the second pet achieves both of these points). And no, not getting the stats from your pet in the merged form does not count as a trade off.

> > > > >

> > > > > What is the trade off for Deadeye? What is the trade off for FB? What is the trade off for the supertank regen and barrier weaver? What is the trade off for the renegade condi build, with 2 weapons, 2 heals, 2 sets of slot skills... that pumps out more condi damage in pvp modes? Hmmm?

> > > > >

> > > > > And we have a ton of trade offs already. Most of everything on Ranger stinks and our forced mechanic has had the same issues since alpha... You need me to find the interview with the devs about pet issues from 10 years ago? Want me to list all the junk stuff and skills and traits and builds for pvp modes?

> > > >

> > > > **Deadeye**: Replacing the core F1 ability (Steal) with the Deadeye's Mark, losing access to a gap closer this way as well as it's unique stolen skills.

> > > >

> > > > **Firebrand**: Replacing all their instant cast core virtues (F1-F3) with the tomes.

> > > >

> > > > **Weaver**: Replacing all of their mainhand #3 weapon skills and losing immediate access to their offhand attunements (need to cycle through 2 attunements to get access to the offhand weapon skills instead of just 1).

> > > >

> > > > **Renegade**: Losing access to the core F2 ability (Ancient Echo) and replacing it with Citadel Order skills.

> > > >

> > >

> > > rifleman - gap closer)

> > > fb -15 skills instead 3

> > > renegade - 3 skills instead 1

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Yes, firebrand and renegade gain more skills than they give up. And?

> > They still give up a skill permanently, it is no longer available for them. That is Anet's definition of a trade off, it is quite obvious.

> > Holosmith is also considered having a trade off by Anet, even if they just trade the F5 skill for 5 new skills with the holoforge. That's how it is, even if you personally disagree with it.

> >

> > Also not entirely sure what you mean with "rifleman", can you please elaborate?

>

> Those specs gain those benefits permanently.

>

> Soulbeast only gains merge skills when we give up our pet for it. And we gain 3 skills in exchange for 4. In other words, we give up pet skills 50% of the time to gain our merge skills the other 50% of the time compared to FB which gives up virtues permanently in exchange for tomes permanently.

>

> And the tradeoff for Holosmith is the overheat mechanic. Which, funnily enough, will never effect them as long as they manage their heat properly (which isn't even hard to do).

 

The overheat mechanic obviously is **not** the trade off mechanic for holosmith, considering that even 2 of 3 grandmaster traits give you more room to avoid the overheat (either by increasing your maximum heat level or being able to vent heat through dodges).

 

If they would truly think that the overheat mechanic is the trade off for the holosmith, then there would be no reason for them to replace the elite toolbelt skill with the holoforge and they could have given holoforge on a new F6 skill instead.

 

Also, if giving up your pet temporarily would be considered a trade off by Anet, then they wouldn't have made that change. And they also wouldn't need to install trade offs for druid or holosmith, since these also "give up" their weapon skills as long as they are in celestial avatar form or holoforge. Firebrand also wouldn't have to give up their virtues, since they "give up" their weapon skills as long as they are using a tome.

 

That's not how their trade off system works, sorry.

[Kodama.6453]

> @"LughLongArm.5460" said:

> > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > > @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > > > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > > > They won't give soulbeast 2 pets back, accept it. Elite specs are supposed to have trade offs, a permanent disadvantage compared to the core class to warrant them getting new mechanics added to the table.

> > > >

> > > > If you want the second pet back so badly, then suggest a new trade off for the soulbeast that makes sense both gameplaywise and thematically (removing the second pet achieves both of these points). And no, not getting the stats from your pet in the merged form does not count as a trade off.

> > >

> > > What is the trade off for Deadeye? What is the trade off for FB? What is the trade off for the supertank regen and barrier weaver? What is the trade off for the renegade condi build, with 2 weapons, 2 heals, 2 sets of slot skills... that pumps out more condi damage in pvp modes? Hmmm?

> > >

> > > And we have a ton of trade offs already. Most of everything on Ranger stinks and our forced mechanic has had the same issues since alpha... You need me to find the interview with the devs about pet issues from 10 years ago? Want me to list all the junk stuff and skills and traits and builds for pvp modes?

> >

> > **Deadeye**: Replacing the core F1 ability (Steal) with the Deadeye's Mark, losing access to a gap closer this way as well as it's unique stolen skills.

> >

> > **Firebrand**: Replacing all their instant cast core virtues (F1-F3) with the tomes.

> >

> > **Weaver**: Replacing all of their mainhand #3 weapon skills and losing immediate access to their offhand attunements (need to cycle through 2 attunements to get access to the offhand weapon skills instead of just 1).

> >

> > **Renegade**: Losing access to the core F2 ability (Ancient Echo) and replacing it with Citadel Order skills.

> >

> > Replacing core mechanic skills is actually the most common trade off installed by Anet. Engineers are replacing their F5 abilities for both elite specs. Necromancers are replacing their Death Shroud for both elite specs.

> >

> > There is only 1 elite spec left without any real trade off by Anet's definition: Tempest

> > Tempest doesn't lose anything compared to the core elementalist as long as they choose not to use their overload mechanic. All other elite specs are trading something from their core mechanics permanently, they don't get this choice. I hope they will introduce a real trade off for the tempests soon, too.

> >

> > And trying to sell flaws of your core class as the trade off doesn't make sense.... Accept it, the design philosophy is that you give up something from the core class permanently. Before the removal of in combat pet swap from the soulbeast, you didn't trade anything for the new mechanic. You just got a button added to merge with your pet, you got another choice to your skill tablet and still had everything available that the core ranger could use, too.

>

> There are levels to what you would call "replacements" to be considered as a legit trade off.

>

> For example, "Firebrand". when you maintain your passive virtue power while getting much much stronger active virtue effect, you can't call it a real trade-off. Soul-beasts always used arguments like that their trad-off is losing the pets while in Beast-mode from, and I always told thme that this is not a real trade-off. Same for druid losing weapons skills while in CA form, not a real trade-off. Losing one pet or having weakened pets regardless , is a real-trade off. Like that, many examples you gave are not a real trade-ff. Firebrand/Tempset are obviously shining examples. Firebrand should lose the passive virtue effect or at-least have a weakened version of it.

 

You can disagree with Anet's definition here, but it seems pretty obvious that these replacements are considered "real trade offs" for them. It is true that the soulbeast didn't have a real trade off, since they just gave up something temporarily (the pet in beast mode), same for druid, they just gave up their weapon skills temporarily in celestial avatar mode.

 

Real trade offs by Anet meaning abandoning something completely, that the core class has something that straight up can't get used by the elite spec. Holosmith, for example, didn't need another trade off for their additional holoforge form, unlike druid, since they already had a replacement. They lost their F5 skill for holoforge. Druid didn't have to make any sacrifices for their new celestial avatar. Hence why they got their pet stats reduced.

 

This is how their trade off system works, how they have defined it. You can disagree with it and call these "not real trade offs". But in Anet's sense, they are.

[LughLongArm.5460]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > @"LughLongArm.5460" said:

> > > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > > > @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > > > > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > > > > They won't give soulbeast 2 pets back, accept it. Elite specs are supposed to have trade offs, a permanent disadvantage compared to the core class to warrant them getting new mechanics added to the table.

> > > > >

> > > > > If you want the second pet back so badly, then suggest a new trade off for the soulbeast that makes sense both gameplaywise and thematically (removing the second pet achieves both of these points). And no, not getting the stats from your pet in the merged form does not count as a trade off.

> > > >

> > > > What is the trade off for Deadeye? What is the trade off for FB? What is the trade off for the supertank regen and barrier weaver? What is the trade off for the renegade condi build, with 2 weapons, 2 heals, 2 sets of slot skills... that pumps out more condi damage in pvp modes? Hmmm?

> > > >

> > > > And we have a ton of trade offs already. Most of everything on Ranger stinks and our forced mechanic has had the same issues since alpha... You need me to find the interview with the devs about pet issues from 10 years ago? Want me to list all the junk stuff and skills and traits and builds for pvp modes?

> > >

> > > **Deadeye**: Replacing the core F1 ability (Steal) with the Deadeye's Mark, losing access to a gap closer this way as well as it's unique stolen skills.

> > >

> > > **Firebrand**: Replacing all their instant cast core virtues (F1-F3) with the tomes.

> > >

> > > **Weaver**: Replacing all of their mainhand #3 weapon skills and losing immediate access to their offhand attunements (need to cycle through 2 attunements to get access to the offhand weapon skills instead of just 1).

> > >

> > > **Renegade**: Losing access to the core F2 ability (Ancient Echo) and replacing it with Citadel Order skills.

> > >

> > > Replacing core mechanic skills is actually the most common trade off installed by Anet. Engineers are replacing their F5 abilities for both elite specs. Necromancers are replacing their Death Shroud for both elite specs.

> > >

> > > There is only 1 elite spec left without any real trade off by Anet's definition: Tempest

> > > Tempest doesn't lose anything compared to the core elementalist as long as they choose not to use their overload mechanic. All other elite specs are trading something from their core mechanics permanently, they don't get this choice. I hope they will introduce a real trade off for the tempests soon, too.

> > >

> > > And trying to sell flaws of your core class as the trade off doesn't make sense.... Accept it, the design philosophy is that you give up something from the core class permanently. Before the removal of in combat pet swap from the soulbeast, you didn't trade anything for the new mechanic. You just got a button added to merge with your pet, you got another choice to your skill tablet and still had everything available that the core ranger could use, too.

> >

> > There are levels to what you would call "replacements" to be considered as a legit trade off.

> >

> > For example, "Firebrand". when you maintain your passive virtue power while getting much much stronger active virtue effect, you can't call it a real trade-off. Soul-beasts always used arguments like that their trad-off is losing the pets while in Beast-mode from, and I always told thme that this is not a real trade-off. Same for druid losing weapons skills while in CA form, not a real trade-off. Losing one pet or having weakened pets regardless , is a real-trade off. Like that, many examples you gave are not a real trade-ff. Firebrand/Tempset are obviously shining examples. Firebrand should lose the passive virtue effect or at-least have a weakened version of it.

>

> You can disagree with Anet's definition here, but it seems pretty obvious that these replacements are considered "real trade offs" for them. It is true that the soulbeast didn't have a real trade off, since they just gave up something temporarily (the pet in beast mode), same for druid, they just gave up their weapon skills temporarily in celestial avatar mode.

>

> Real trade offs by Anet meaning abandoning something completely, that the core class has something that straight up can't get used by the elite spec. Holosmith, for example, didn't need another trade off for their additional holoforge form, unlike druid, since they already had a replacement. They lost their F5 skill for holoforge. Druid didn't have to make any sacrifices for their new celestial avatar. Hence why they got their pet stats reduced.

>

> This is how their trade off system works, how they have defined it. You can disagree with it and call these "not real trade offs". But in Anet's sense, they are.

 

I Agree.

[wasss.1208]

> @"Swagger.1459" said:

 

> **DAGGERS**

>

> - 1 https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Groundwork_Gouge - 3 targets. 600 range leap attack.

 

One handed sword used to have a leap on the second part of the AA chain, and it was considered horrible, because it locked you in an animation for the leaps duration. Most streamers I was watching at that time had AA disabled on sword. Just buff the real leap skill, as you suggested, and add a short cripple on it. Or don't, to drive people to using D/D.

[Swagger.1459]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > > They won't give soulbeast 2 pets back, accept it. Elite specs are supposed to have trade offs, a permanent disadvantage compared to the core class to warrant them getting new mechanics added to the table.

> > >

> > > If you want the second pet back so badly, then suggest a new trade off for the soulbeast that makes sense both gameplaywise and thematically (removing the second pet achieves both of these points). And no, not getting the stats from your pet in the merged form does not count as a trade off.

> >

> > What is the trade off for Deadeye? What is the trade off for FB? What is the trade off for the supertank regen and barrier weaver? What is the trade off for the renegade condi build, with 2 weapons, 2 heals, 2 sets of slot skills... that pumps out more condi damage in pvp modes? Hmmm?

> >

> > And we have a ton of trade offs already. Most of everything on Ranger stinks and our forced mechanic has had the same issues since alpha... You need me to find the interview with the devs about pet issues from 10 years ago? Want me to list all the junk stuff and skills and traits and builds for pvp modes?

>

> **Deadeye**: Replacing the core F1 ability (Steal) with the Deadeye's Mark, losing access to a gap closer this way as well as it's unique stolen skills.

>

> **Firebrand**: Replacing all their instant cast core virtues (F1-F3) with the tomes.

>

> **Weaver**: Replacing all of their mainhand #3 weapon skills and losing immediate access to their offhand attunements (need to cycle through 2 attunements to get access to the offhand weapon skills instead of just 1).

>

> **Renegade**: Losing access to the core F2 ability (Ancient Echo) and replacing it with Citadel Order skills.

>

> Replacing core mechanic skills is actually the most common trade off installed by Anet. Engineers are replacing their F5 abilities for both elite specs. Necromancers are replacing their Death Shroud for both elite specs.

>

> There is only 1 elite spec left without any real trade off by Anet's definition: Tempest

> Tempest doesn't lose anything compared to the core elementalist as long as they choose not to use their overload mechanic. All other elite specs are trading something from their core mechanics permanently, they don't get this choice. I hope they will introduce a real trade off for the tempests soon, too.

>

> And trying to sell flaws of your core class as the trade off doesn't make sense.... Accept it, the design philosophy is that you give up something from the core class permanently. Before the removal of in combat pet swap from the soulbeast, you didn't trade anything for the new mechanic. You just got a button added to merge with your pet, you got another choice to your skill tablet and still had everything available that the core ranger could use, too.

 

Like how you downplay with the description of professions.

 

"losing access to a gap closer"... do you want me to go over the list of movement and positioning skills on deadeye? and permastealth capabilities with reveal removal? https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deadeye

 

"Replacing all their instant cast core virtues (F1-F3) with the tomes"... You mean lose 3 virtues to gain access to 15 tome skills, along with DOUBLE the amount of slot skills? https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Firebrand

 

"Replacing all of their mainhand #3 weapon skills and losing immediate access to their offhand attunements"... Don't ya mean still having access to a whopping 50 weapon skills, which doesn't even include all the off-hand skills?... https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Weaver

 

"Losing access to the core F2 ability (Ancient Echo) and replacing it with Citadel Order skills.".. while still having 2 weapons, 2 heals, 2 sets of slot skills AND destroys condi ranger build designs in wvw and spvp… You know how easy it is to stack might with a press of a button?.. yeah, huge tradeoff... https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Renegade

 

Go run around in wvw and get in fights while using daggers, then come back to tell me how it went. And keep an eye on how crappy most pets are too... Then we can discuss tradeoffs some more. SB kit sucks comparatively for a melee and condi build, and that was the original design of it so that's a big enough trade off as is.

 

[Kodama.6453]

> @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> Put me in the camp of people who don't think FBs have a true tradeoff... Way too much is gained from those tomes. They need a stat penalty in there somewhere.

>

> As to the OP. You aren't getting a second pet back, however you are right in that SB is supposed to be a melee condi spec, but no plays that. MH dagger does need to be updated, mostly with better built in gap closing and CC. They halved the attribute gain from Beastmastery, which was the right thing to do.

>

> The traits in Soulbeast need changing as well to better support the melee condi style, and less boonbeast. Fresh Reinforcement is part of the problem and should be replaced with something that better supports the melee condi playstyle as there is nothing other than boon support in that tier right now. This would also curb Boonbeast.

 

I know, this might just be about semantics, but firebrands have a trade off in Anets definition.

If this trade off is hard enough to warrant access to tomes is a different question and I actually agree with you, tomes add too much power to the firebrand. Giving up the core virtues doesn't make up for that.

 

So they probably could use getting another one added.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > Put me in the camp of people who don't think FBs have a true tradeoff... Way too much is gained from those tomes. They need a stat penalty in there somewhere.

> >

> > As to the OP. You aren't getting a second pet back, however you are right in that SB is supposed to be a melee condi spec, but no plays that. MH dagger does need to be updated, mostly with better built in gap closing and CC. They halved the attribute gain from Beastmastery, which was the right thing to do.

> >

> > The traits in Soulbeast need changing as well to better support the melee condi style, and less boonbeast. Fresh Reinforcement is part of the problem and should be replaced with something that better supports the melee condi playstyle as there is nothing other than boon support in that tier right now. This would also curb Boonbeast.

>

> I know, this might just be about semantics, but firebrands have a trade off in Anets definition.

> If this trade off is hard enough to warrant access to tomes is a different question and I actually agree with you, tomes add too much power to the firebrand. Giving up the core virtues doesn't make up for that.

>

> So they probably could use getting another one added.

 

Like I said, a stat penalty. It would probably curb some of FB's power as well.

[SkyCakeLight.3750]

I'm pretty much pro-any change to daggers. Probably one of the least "elite" feeling weapons. I would have thought they would have been more feral and/or cat-like. You ideas make it seem more like a predator!

[Taril.8619]

Most pets should get a 50% recharge reduction on their Beast abilities and some should also get a 50% cast time reduction too. 40+ second recharges for mediocre skills with 1-3 (Yes, 3) second cast times is insane. (Meanwhile, on a Tools Engine, spamming out 6-10s CD instant cast additional skills hitting for tons of damage and applying additional effects...) this should be baseline for Core Ranger. Most pets just outright suck because of how trash most abilities are.

 

I could see 1 pet Soulbeast being more comfortable, if merged F1 and F2 skills where "Beast" skills, meaning they could proc Beast Ability traits (Live Fast, Go for the Eyes, Wilting Strike, Beastly Warden, Invigorating Bond and Poison Master) - You'd need to add a CD to Live Fast though. Also, Live Fast should proc when you use F2 while unmerged.

 

Definitely remove the stupid extra stats from merging that artificially limits you to 1/5th of the pet pool because you want a pet that has useful stats when merged...

 

Fix "Protect Me". Literally it states "Gain protection and barrier" as the first 4 words in its description. Yet when merged, no Barrier.

[Dadnir.5038]

I don't think a specialization is meant to be "condi" or "power" exclusively. Soulbeast offer condi options that may not be on par to expectation but that's all. In fact I believe that the poison on MH dagger is more here to support the siphon when you poison a foe from _predator's cunning_ than anything.

 

On the topic of the main mechanics of the e-specs, I believe that in general ANet do a poor job with the trade off. These trade off are neither consitent nor especially practical. Some time they care to shuffle abilities which is an interesting thing to do despite hurting a bit the gameplay and other time it just feel like random nerf.

 

That said, If we have to consider the ranger only, I don't think that Soulbeast have a bad tradeoff. The main reason players complain about it is because ANet didn't care to implement this tradeoff at PoF release and they've grown accustomed to an extended range of freedom that have been taken away from them.

 

Honestly, there is worse tradeoff than the soulbeast's where you trade the utility of having a 2nd pet in combat for the utility of being able to merge with your pet.

 

If you were to compare with mirage for example, it's like you'd have a ranger e-spec that tradeoff it's second pet for an F4 that spawn temporary pets (a bit like hyena's F2 as the basis for F4) without the liberty of choice to have F4 change your pet while out of combat.

[Kodama.6453]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> I don't think a specialization is meant to be "condi" or "power" exclusively.

 

I think the scrapper rework has proven that Anet wants elite spec to use either power or condi playstyles. The barrier generation works exclusively with power damage, so you are pretty much required to always play power while using scrapper.

 

 

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > I don't think a specialization is meant to be "condi" or "power" exclusively.

>

> I think the scrapper rework has proven that Anet wants elite spec to use either power or condi playstyles. The barrier generation works exclusively with power damage, so you are pretty much required to always play power while using scrapper.

>

>

 

I believe this peculiar example is more due to ANet's poor ability to design traits than a will to dedicate damage means to e-specs.

[Swagger.1459]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> I don't think a specialization is meant to be "condi" or "power" exclusively. Soulbeast offer condi options that may not be on par to expectation but that's all. In fact I believe that the poison on MH dagger is more here to support the siphon when you poison a foe from _predator's cunning_ than anything.

>

> On the topic of the main mechanics of the e-specs, I believe that in general ANet do a poor job with the trade off. These trade off are neither consitent nor especially practical. Some time they care to shuffle abilities which is an interesting thing to do despite hurting a bit the gameplay and other time it just feel like random nerf.

>

> That said, If we have to consider the ranger only, I don't think that Soulbeast have a bad tradeoff. The main reason players complain about it is because ANet didn't care to implement this tradeoff at PoF release and they've grown accustomed to an extended range of freedom that have been taken away from them.

>

> Honestly, there is worse tradeoff than the soulbeast's where you trade the utility of having a 2nd pet in combat for the utility of being able to merge with your pet.

>

> If you were to compare with mirage for example, it's like you'd have a ranger e-spec that tradeoff it's second pet for an F4 that spawn temporary pets (a bit like hyena's F2 as the basis for F4) without the liberty of choice to have F4 change your pet while out of combat.

 

I understand players can make different builds, but the idea was for Soulbeast to fall more on the condition melee spec side, with the extras of pet merging stuff. Soulbeast needs a better, and more usable, condition design.

[Kulcan.8932]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> Most pets should get a 50% recharge reduction on their Beast abilities and some should also get a 50% cast time reduction too. 40+ second recharges for mediocre skills with 1-3 (Yes, 3) second cast times is insane. (Meanwhile, on a Tools Engine, spamming out 6-10s CD instant cast additional skills hitting for tons of damage and applying additional effects...) this should be baseline for Core Ranger. Most pets just outright suck because of how trash most abilities are.

>

> I could see 1 pet Soulbeast being more comfortable, if merged F1 and F2 skills where "Beast" skills, meaning they could proc Beast Ability traits (Live Fast, Go for the Eyes, Wilting Strike, Beastly Warden, Invigorating Bond and Poison Master) - You'd need to add a CD to Live Fast though. Also, Live Fast should proc when you use F2 while unmerged.

>

> Definitely remove the stupid extra stats from merging that artificially limits you to 1/5th of the pet pool because you want a pet that has useful stats when merged...

>

> Fix "Protect Me". Literally it states "Gain protection and barrier" as the first 4 words in its description. Yet when merged, no Barrier.

 

Agreed. Beast traits are useless on Soulbeast once you merged with the pet AND since you can't swap two pets other traits were affected also.

 

We need to have an adjustments for these somehow.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > I don't think a specialization is meant to be "condi" or "power" exclusively. Soulbeast offer condi options that may not be on par to expectation but that's all. In fact I believe that the poison on MH dagger is more here to support the siphon when you poison a foe from _predator's cunning_ than anything.

> >

> > On the topic of the main mechanics of the e-specs, I believe that in general ANet do a poor job with the trade off. These trade off are neither consitent nor especially practical. Some time they care to shuffle abilities which is an interesting thing to do despite hurting a bit the gameplay and other time it just feel like random nerf.

> >

> > That said, If we have to consider the ranger only, I don't think that Soulbeast have a bad tradeoff. The main reason players complain about it is because ANet didn't care to implement this tradeoff at PoF release and they've grown accustomed to an extended range of freedom that have been taken away from them.

> >

> > Honestly, there is worse tradeoff than the soulbeast's where you trade the utility of having a 2nd pet in combat for the utility of being able to merge with your pet.

> >

> > If you were to compare with mirage for example, it's like you'd have a ranger e-spec that tradeoff it's second pet for an F4 that spawn temporary pets (a bit like hyena's F2 as the basis for F4) without the liberty of choice to have F4 change your pet while out of combat.

>

> I understand players can make different builds, but the idea was for Soulbeast to fall more on the condition melee spec side, with the extras of pet merging stuff. Soulbeast needs a better, and more usable, condition design.

 

The issue with conditions is that from the beginning ANet made the mistake to put some on AA. More accurately having "skills" as autoattack instead of a bland attack was the mistake. This led condi builds to be heavily reliant on auto attack which make conditions to easily applied in the game.

 

As for whether or not soulbeast is a condition melee spec or not, I believe that you are misled. E-specs' weapons add flavor, they ain't the "drive" of the e-spec. You are looking at e-spec like the weapon associated is important, it is not. Fondamentally whatever e-spec you use you are still able to use any of the core weapons which mean the espec weapon is an accessory token and as such it cannot define the gameplay of the e-spec. Something that define the gameplay of an e-spec is something that cannot be separated from it's gameplay. For the soulbeast it's simply the beastmode and nothing in the beastmode especially lead anyone to think that it's designed for a condi melee gameplay.

 

What you have some beef with is the dagger's ability to apply condition damage. I won't lie to you, necromancer's scepter isn't much better at applying conditions on a single target than ranger's main hand dagger, yet it's a stapple of the necromancer's condi kit. The only thing lacking for the SB dagger compared to the necromancer's scepter is the necromancer's scepter trait increasing it's conditions duration. But to compensate this you have a pet to supply yourself with additionnal sources of conditions.

 

So, why is it harder on the SB to have a working condi build you'll ask. It's simply harder because the ranger's utility don't provide him with long lasting conditions but instead short condi burst which in itself is a better way to take down low health players than impossibly high health mobs. Yet, to take down player it's easier to simply rely on power damage.

 

Now I know that the necromancer isn't especially good at dealing damage but condition wise I don't believe that dagger soulbeast output in any way inferior to the necromancer. So if anything the melee condi soulbeast is balanced.