Kuma.1503 Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 In no uncertain terms, Anet is not capable of dishing out the correct nerfs. Chrono, we all know how oppressive it was. It's the prime example of what an overpowered class looks like. Arena net responded to this, not by toning it down, but by deleting it from PvP and making it clunky and unfun to play in PvE. Scourge, the 2nd horseman of the appocalypse in the dreaded FB,Scourge meta. Appropriately nerfed, but also deleted from PvP. Made clunky and unfun in PvE. It has only made a slight resergence by accident due to reverse power creep. Renegade, non existant in PvP for much of its lifespan, yet given no love. Only made a resergence recently due to the other factors shifting around it. Druid, once a viable spec, nerfed into unplayability, left in the gutter for ages, only recently making a small resergence due to the meta shifting around it. Scrapper. Supposedly, left unviable in PvE because it was made for PvP. "Not all classes must be good in all game modes". Nerfed into unviability when it got it's Vitality trade off. Double nerfed in the recent patch so it hasn't even made a resergence. Not desirable in any game mode. (Maybe WvW but I don't play it) Mirage, Anet's most recent victim. Only time will tell how long this class will remain in the garbage. Anet does not have a good history of fixing things that were overnerfed. A few recent, yet smaller offenders include Overcharge shot, Rev staff 5, Pulmonary Impact, and hammer warrior. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In short, Anet has a history of overnerfing things. Anet does not have a history of gauging how their nerfs affected a class, how they affect the feel and flow of a class, if additional changes should be made, or poorly implimented changes reverted. If it's build diversity we want then the first step is to start fixing what is fundamentally broken. Fix Chrono. Delete Chronophantasma if you have to, if it means phantasms can be properly balanced. Fix Mirage. Rework IH if you must. Change how it functions with conditions. Fix Druid. If nothing else, revert the pet nerf. It already has enough of a trade-off compared to core. It does far less damage and needs to invest into sustain to get value out of CA. Scourge is finally in a healthy place, though entirely by accident. It can be left mostly alone for now. Fix Scrapper, give it something it excells at. Some reason to bring it over the competition. Even core engi outshines it in most cases. It's about time we start addressing Year+ old bugs as well. Make sure things are working as intended. I want a well balanced PvP as much as the next guy, but not if it comes at the cost of making more classes feel as clunky and non functional as these were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revolution.5409 Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 I like this, but nerfing is easier than reworking. I don't think we will ever see most problems resolved with some professions, because it would mean reworking them from 0 and I don't think it's possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuma.1503 Posted April 18, 2020 Author Share Posted April 18, 2020 > @"Revolution.5409" said: > I like this, but nerfing is easier than reworking. > > I don't think we will ever see most problems resolved with some professions, because it would mean reworking them from 0 and I don't think it's possible. You bring up a valid point, but therein lies the problem. Will we make PvP any better if we focus only destroying what works and not fixing what is broken. We're essentially putting our faith into Anet to get things right first try. If they overshoot, and boy have they overshot by a wide margin in the past, there's a good chance whatever was destroyed will not be given a 2nd pass. It's easy to hammer down the nail that sticks up the most. Aim poorly and the nail becomes bent, and no amount of hammering will fix it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 the new balance team is better at balancing simply by having more power to do so. altho if they continue along the lines of what you just mentioned, deleting specs, none of it will matter. anet pls don't gut anymore specs or you will kill your game, and yes un gut previous specs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 i dont agree i think some nerfs will solve some of the main problems. They have already said that this initial nerf patch was mainly to get everything on a quick standard and that things will be evaluated more going forward. Meaning that somethings will be buffed on a case by case and some more things will still be nerfed on a case by case. base healing on pressing f on a downed player is a prime example where more nerfs are needed. Some cc skills getting their damage back if they have big tells or getting the cc removed entirely for big raw damage instead is a prime example where more buffs are needed One cannot simply say more nerfs wont solve anything because in many cases it actually makes more sense to nerf. Your examples of scourge, chorno, etc require reworks and thats more work than making small nerfs. Simply buffing those things is also not a solution because we already know what those professions were strong and it was unhealthy. The nerfs actually brought renegade into a spot where its doing really well so imo some times nerfs do solve problems. Mirage is kind of a rough one because it in all honestly needed a nerf that said.... im sure there were better ways to handle it that said players are still making it work unlike things like scourge and chrono so it cant be as bad as what many people are making it out to be. Again i still dont think the nerfs were applied in the best way but it cant go back to what it was before for obvious reasons much like scourge cant go back to how it was for obvious reasons. Overcharge shot imo is not that big of a deal it needs the cast time but the self knock back should prob be removed, Rev staff 5 needs the cast time there is no point to argue this instant cc with no tell/ cast time is not coming back, Pulmonary Impact is imo still decent cause ive seen it pop for decent chunks of damage even without critting, Hammer warrior might need some reworks but i still dont think most of the cc in that weapon kit should get heavy damage back. Late edit: I will be the first to tell you scourge is not in a healthy place Its just as busted mechanically as chrono is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exedore.6320 Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 The PvP team for the longest time was unable to touch the poorly designed mechanics of elite specs. The PvP team is still limited by what they can change quickly. Fixing underlying mechanical issues is slow. Unfortunately, the only way to make many elite specs healthy is to significantly redesign them. Many elite specs are an almalgum of "that sounds cool" which doesn't work in practice. The developers can either leave these elite specs overpowered or "Smiter's Boon" them until they can get a proper redesign. When they can be balanced, they don't feel fun to play. Examples: * The druid problem is fairly obvious - celestial avatar is very similar to an elite transformation skill. But druids don't lose their elite skill. It's also a strong defensive cooldown. So if CA is useable more often, DPS druid is ranger and an extra defensive cooldown, and defensive ranger becomes unkillable in small fights. The only way to stop this is to make CA extremely scarse, which cripples its intended purpose as a direct healing support. * Chronomancer's ability to reset cooldowns is extremely unhealthy for a class which already focuses on burst cooldowns. Removing the mesmer counting for shatters is a way to reduce the strength of each burst. But now you have a burst class that can't burst well except when they use a big cooldown. * Scrapper and core engineer are relatively weak, but are held back by holosmith. The problem lies in holosmith getting what is essentially a strong weapon kit in its F5 slot, replacing relatively weak abilities. This frees it to take non-kit utilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senqu.8054 Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 Some things Mesmer lost over the years: Core Mesmer: - Glamour Confusion Mesmer - Power shatter GS Staff with confusion passive dmg - Power shatter with sword/torch scepter/pistol Chrono: - Chrono itself xD - Bunker - Boonshare / Support Chrono - Power phantasm Mirage: - one dodge xD (it’s like a meme) - Power Interrupt builds - Condi Interrupt builds - Power Shatter GS Sword/torch - Power Shatter Staff Sword/Sword Anet is the god in making something viable just to delete it. Don’t get me wrong some of these builds have been op but making it not viable anymore by overnerfing it or even deleting the trait wich defined the build is beyond my understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arheundel.6451 Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 > @"Senqu.8054" said: > Some things Mesmer lost over the years: > > Core Mesmer: > - Glamour Confusion Mesmer > - Power shatter GS Staff with confusion passive dmg > - Power shatter with sword/torch scepter/pistol > > Chrono: > - Chrono itself xD > - Bunker > - Boonshare / Support Chrono > - Power phantasm > > Mirage: > - one dodge xD (it’s like a meme) > - Power Interrupt builds > - Condi Interrupt builds > - Power Shatter GS Sword/torch > - Power Shatter Staff Sword/Sword > > Anet is the god in making something viable just to delete it. Don’t get me wrong some of these builds have been op but making it not viable anymore by overnerfing it or even deleting the trait wich defined the build is beyond my understanding. Trust me..nobody knows but this is their signature move : **remove everything but the problem** itself in the name of a build diversity we end killing even more in the end" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arheundel.6451 Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 > @"Exedore.6320" said: > The PvP team for the longest time was unable to touch the poorly designed mechanics of elite specs. The PvP team is still limited by what they can change quickly. Fixing underlying mechanical issues is slow. Unfortunately, the only way to make many elite specs healthy is to significantly redesign them. Many elite specs are an almalgum of "that sounds cool" which doesn't work in practice. The developers can either leave these elite specs overpowered or "Smiter's Boon" them until they can get a proper redesign. When they can be balanced, they don't feel fun to play. > > Examples: > * The druid problem is fairly obvious - celestial avatar is very similar to an elite transformation skill. But druids don't lose their elite skill. It's also a strong defensive cooldown. So if CA is useable more often, DPS druid is ranger and an extra defensive cooldown, and defensive ranger becomes unkillable in small fights. The only way to stop this is to make CA extremely scarse, which cripples its intended purpose as a direct healing support. > * Chronomancer's ability to reset cooldowns is extremely unhealthy for a class which already focuses on burst cooldowns. Removing the mesmer counting for shatters is a way to reduce the strength of each burst. But now you have a burst class that can't burst well except when they use a big cooldown. > * Scrapper and core engineer are relatively weak, but are held back by holosmith. The problem lies in holosmith getting what is essentially a strong weapon kit in its F5 slot, replacing relatively weak abilities. This frees it to take non-kit utilities. > It's called "lack of design experience"..imagine being a car designer go the meeting room and say :" hey let's attach a couple of wings to the new car model, it will give the driver that flying sensation"...yeah you get the point Just few examples: "hey let's create a stealth sniper elite....with an elite that removes the only counterplay to stealth, I am sure nothing will go wrong...just finished playing Sniper Elite 4 cool" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoritoGod.5817 Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 > @"Senqu.8054" said: > Some things Mesmer lost over the years: > > Core Mesmer: > - Glamour Confusion Mesmer > - Power shatter GS Staff with confusion passive dmg > - Power shatter with sword/torch scepter/pistol > > Chrono: > - Chrono itself xD > - Bunker > - Boonshare / Support Chrono > - Power phantasm > > Mirage: > - one dodge xD (it’s like a meme) > - Power Interrupt builds > - Condi Interrupt builds > - Power Shatter GS Sword/torch > - Power Shatter Staff Sword/Sword > > Anet is the god in making something viable just to delete it. Don’t get me wrong some of these builds have been op but making it not viable anymore by overnerfing it or even deleting the trait wich defined the build is beyond my understanding. literally every build there was cancer and im glad theyre gone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuma.1503 Posted April 18, 2020 Author Share Posted April 18, 2020 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > i dont agree i think some nerfs will solve some of the main problems. > They have already said that this initial nerf patch was mainly to get everything on a quick standard and that things will be evaluated more going forward. Meaning that somethings will be buffed on a case by case and some more things will still be nerfed on a case by case. base healing on pressing f on a downed player is a prime example where more nerfs are needed. Some cc skills getting their damage back if they have big tells or getting the cc removed entirely for big raw damage instead is a prime example where more buffs are needed > > One cannot simply say more nerfs wont solve anything because in many cases it actually makes more sense to nerf. > Your examples of scourge, chorno, etc require reworks and thats more work than making small nerfs. Simply buffing those things is also not a solution because we already know what those professions were strong and it was unhealthy. > > The nerfs actually brought renegade into a spot where its doing really well so imo some times nerfs do solve problems. > > Mirage is kind of a rough one because it in all honestly needed a nerf that said.... im sure there were better ways to handle it that said players are still making it work unlike things like scourge and chrono so it cant be as bad as what many people are making it out to be. Again i still dont think the nerfs were applied in the best way but it cant go back to what it was before for obvious reasons much like scourge cant go back to how it was for obvious reasons. > > Overcharge shot imo is not that big of a deal it needs the cast time but the self knock back should prob be removed, > Rev staff 5 needs the cast time there is no point to argue this instant cc with no tell/ cast time is not coming back, > Pulmonary Impact is imo still decent cause ive seen it pop for decent chunks of damage even without critting, > Hammer warrior might need some reworks but i still dont think most of the cc in that weapon kit should get heavy damage back. > > Late edit: I will be the first to tell you scourge is not in a healthy place > Its just as busted mechanically as chrono is. Nerfs **are** important. I'm not refuting that. However, we have reached a point where enough things have been nerfed in the wrong ways that their fundamental mechanics are not working as intended. Looking back at Anet's history of gutting rather than nerfing intelligently, my conclusion is that simply asking for more and more outliers to get nerfed will not bring about a balanced PvP. Anet is bound to overshoot, and as classes get destroyed, fixes will take an indefinite amount of time to come. Conclusion: we shift our focus. Anet needs to determine which classes are working as intended and which have fundamental flaws. We need to fix those fundamental flaws, and then we need to balance the class around said fixes. I'll repeat a few of my suggestions: Chronomancer - Lose Chronophantasma. Losing this would, for all intents and purposes, be a nerf. However, if would free up design space to fix phantasms which were previously balanced around this trait. Mirage - Rework condi ambushes. Depending on how this is implimented, this would be a nerf to certain playstyles of condi mirage, but it would open up design space for future balance. Yes, there have been classes like Renegade which have come back due to nerfs, but this happened by accident, and based on the amount of hate it receives on the forums, more nerfs may be pending which will render this point moot. Anet needs to take a long hard look at each spec. Ask themselves which are performing as intended, which types of gameplay do they want to promote? Which builds are healthy for the game and which are not? Why? And finally, how can we fix specs which were previously gutted due to being "unhealthy" for the game so that they can exist in the meta without breaking it? It's not the easy solution by any stretch of the imagination, but it is what the game needs. It's what they're paid to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tayga.3192 Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 > @"DoritoGod.5817" said: > literally every build there was cancer and im glad theyre gone So... all mesmer builds are cancer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > i dont agree i think some nerfs will solve some of the main problems. > They have already said that this initial nerf patch was mainly to get everything on a quick standard and that things will be evaluated more going forward. Meaning that somethings will be buffed on a case by case and some more things will still be nerfed on a case by case. base healing on pressing f on a downed player is a prime example where more nerfs are needed. Some cc skills getting their damage back if they have big tells or getting the cc removed entirely for big raw damage instead is a prime example where more buffs are needed > > One cannot simply say more nerfs wont solve anything because in many cases it actually makes more sense to nerf. > Your examples of scourge, chorno, etc require reworks and thats more work than making small nerfs. Simply buffing those things is also not a solution because we already know what those professions were strong and it was unhealthy. > > The nerfs actually brought renegade into a spot where its doing really well so imo some times nerfs do solve problems. > > Mirage is kind of a rough one because it in all honestly needed a nerf that said.... im sure there were better ways to handle it that said players are still making it work unlike things like scourge and chrono so it cant be as bad as what many people are making it out to be. Again i still dont think the nerfs were applied in the best way but it cant go back to what it was before for obvious reasons much like scourge cant go back to how it was for obvious reasons. > > Overcharge shot imo is not that big of a deal it needs the cast time but the self knock back should prob be removed, > Rev staff 5 needs the cast time there is no point to argue this instant cc with no tell/ cast time is not coming back, > Pulmonary Impact is imo still decent cause ive seen it pop for decent chunks of damage even without critting, > Hammer warrior might need some reworks but i still dont think most of the cc in that weapon kit should get heavy damage back. > > Late edit: I will be the first to tell you scourge is not in a healthy place > Its just as busted mechanically as chrono is. PI is not "decent", its completely unplayable. For one, it *cant* crit. Thats its gimmick. As for the damage? Its pathetic. Youre looking at an average 200-400 damage per PI. Its so bad, no build runs it. At all. It was already bad pre-patch (only one build ran it, and Im pretty sure even on that build it was the wrong choice), but then it got nerfed by **66%**, more than twice as much as the average damaging skill. Its just unplayable. Its so bad its an outright troll pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > i dont agree i think some nerfs will solve some of the main problems. > > They have already said that this initial nerf patch was mainly to get everything on a quick standard and that things will be evaluated more going forward. Meaning that somethings will be buffed on a case by case and some more things will still be nerfed on a case by case. base healing on pressing f on a downed player is a prime example where more nerfs are needed. Some cc skills getting their damage back if they have big tells or getting the cc removed entirely for big raw damage instead is a prime example where more buffs are needed > > > > One cannot simply say more nerfs wont solve anything because in many cases it actually makes more sense to nerf. > > Your examples of scourge, chorno, etc require reworks and thats more work than making small nerfs. Simply buffing those things is also not a solution because we already know what those professions were strong and it was unhealthy. > > > > The nerfs actually brought renegade into a spot where its doing really well so imo some times nerfs do solve problems. > > > > Mirage is kind of a rough one because it in all honestly needed a nerf that said.... im sure there were better ways to handle it that said players are still making it work unlike things like scourge and chrono so it cant be as bad as what many people are making it out to be. Again i still dont think the nerfs were applied in the best way but it cant go back to what it was before for obvious reasons much like scourge cant go back to how it was for obvious reasons. > > > > Overcharge shot imo is not that big of a deal it needs the cast time but the self knock back should prob be removed, > > Rev staff 5 needs the cast time there is no point to argue this instant cc with no tell/ cast time is not coming back, > > Pulmonary Impact is imo still decent cause ive seen it pop for decent chunks of damage even without critting, > > Hammer warrior might need some reworks but i still dont think most of the cc in that weapon kit should get heavy damage back. > > > > Late edit: I will be the first to tell you scourge is not in a healthy place > > Its just as busted mechanically as chrono is. > > PI is not "decent", its completely unplayable. For one, it *cant* crit. Thats its gimmick. As for the damage? Its pathetic. Youre looking at an average 200-400 damage per PI. Its so bad, no build runs it. At all. It was already bad pre-patch (only one build ran it, and Im pretty sure even on that build it was the wrong choice), but then it got nerfed by **66%**, more than twice as much as the average damaging skill. Its just unplayable. Its so bad its an outright troll pick. It's in a fine spot tho if u don't play thief and are the one getting hit by it, in that case skills perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arheundel.6451 Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > i dont agree i think some nerfs will solve some of the main problems. > > They have already said that this initial nerf patch was mainly to get everything on a quick standard and that things will be evaluated more going forward. Meaning that somethings will be buffed on a case by case and some more things will still be nerfed on a case by case. base healing on pressing f on a downed player is a prime example where more nerfs are needed. Some cc skills getting their damage back if they have big tells or getting the cc removed entirely for big raw damage instead is a prime example where more buffs are needed > > > > One cannot simply say more nerfs wont solve anything because in many cases it actually makes more sense to nerf. > > Your examples of scourge, chorno, etc require reworks and thats more work than making small nerfs. Simply buffing those things is also not a solution because we already know what those professions were strong and it was unhealthy. > > > > The nerfs actually brought renegade into a spot where its doing really well so imo some times nerfs do solve problems. > > > > Mirage is kind of a rough one because it in all honestly needed a nerf that said.... im sure there were better ways to handle it that said players are still making it work unlike things like scourge and chrono so it cant be as bad as what many people are making it out to be. Again i still dont think the nerfs were applied in the best way but it cant go back to what it was before for obvious reasons much like scourge cant go back to how it was for obvious reasons. > > > > Overcharge shot imo is not that big of a deal it needs the cast time but the self knock back should prob be removed, > > Rev staff 5 needs the cast time there is no point to argue this instant cc with no tell/ cast time is not coming back, > > Pulmonary Impact is imo still decent cause ive seen it pop for decent chunks of damage even without critting, > > Hammer warrior might need some reworks but i still dont think most of the cc in that weapon kit should get heavy damage back. > > > > Late edit: I will be the first to tell you scourge is not in a healthy place > > Its just as busted mechanically as chrono is. > > PI is not "decent", its completely unplayable. For one, it *cant* crit. Thats its gimmick. As for the damage? Its pathetic. Youre looking at an average 200-400 damage per PI. Its so bad, no build runs it. At all. It was already bad pre-patch (only one build ran it, and Im pretty sure even on that build it was the wrong choice), but then it got nerfed by **66%**, more than twice as much as the average damaging skill. Its just unplayable. Its so bad its an outright troll pick. Headshot = 3/4s cast time, ini increased to 6..there you can have back 3/4 of the original dmg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > i dont agree i think some nerfs will solve some of the main problems. > > > They have already said that this initial nerf patch was mainly to get everything on a quick standard and that things will be evaluated more going forward. Meaning that somethings will be buffed on a case by case and some more things will still be nerfed on a case by case. base healing on pressing f on a downed player is a prime example where more nerfs are needed. Some cc skills getting their damage back if they have big tells or getting the cc removed entirely for big raw damage instead is a prime example where more buffs are needed > > > > > > One cannot simply say more nerfs wont solve anything because in many cases it actually makes more sense to nerf. > > > Your examples of scourge, chorno, etc require reworks and thats more work than making small nerfs. Simply buffing those things is also not a solution because we already know what those professions were strong and it was unhealthy. > > > > > > The nerfs actually brought renegade into a spot where its doing really well so imo some times nerfs do solve problems. > > > > > > Mirage is kind of a rough one because it in all honestly needed a nerf that said.... im sure there were better ways to handle it that said players are still making it work unlike things like scourge and chrono so it cant be as bad as what many people are making it out to be. Again i still dont think the nerfs were applied in the best way but it cant go back to what it was before for obvious reasons much like scourge cant go back to how it was for obvious reasons. > > > > > > Overcharge shot imo is not that big of a deal it needs the cast time but the self knock back should prob be removed, > > > Rev staff 5 needs the cast time there is no point to argue this instant cc with no tell/ cast time is not coming back, > > > Pulmonary Impact is imo still decent cause ive seen it pop for decent chunks of damage even without critting, > > > Hammer warrior might need some reworks but i still dont think most of the cc in that weapon kit should get heavy damage back. > > > > > > Late edit: I will be the first to tell you scourge is not in a healthy place > > > Its just as busted mechanically as chrono is. > > > > PI is not "decent", its completely unplayable. For one, it *cant* crit. Thats its gimmick. As for the damage? Its pathetic. Youre looking at an average 200-400 damage per PI. Its so bad, no build runs it. At all. It was already bad pre-patch (only one build ran it, and Im pretty sure even on that build it was the wrong choice), but then it got nerfed by **66%**, more than twice as much as the average damaging skill. Its just unplayable. Its so bad its an outright troll pick. > > Headshot = 3/4s cast time, ini increased to 6..there you can have back 3/4 of the original dmg You could just write "I want Pulmonary Impact to be completely unplayable", it wouldve saved time and space. But no, you could simply revert the PI nerf, rever the accidental overnerf it got before that, and the skill would be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arheundel.6451 Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > i dont agree i think some nerfs will solve some of the main problems. > > > > They have already said that this initial nerf patch was mainly to get everything on a quick standard and that things will be evaluated more going forward. Meaning that somethings will be buffed on a case by case and some more things will still be nerfed on a case by case. base healing on pressing f on a downed player is a prime example where more nerfs are needed. Some cc skills getting their damage back if they have big tells or getting the cc removed entirely for big raw damage instead is a prime example where more buffs are needed > > > > > > > > One cannot simply say more nerfs wont solve anything because in many cases it actually makes more sense to nerf. > > > > Your examples of scourge, chorno, etc require reworks and thats more work than making small nerfs. Simply buffing those things is also not a solution because we already know what those professions were strong and it was unhealthy. > > > > > > > > The nerfs actually brought renegade into a spot where its doing really well so imo some times nerfs do solve problems. > > > > > > > > Mirage is kind of a rough one because it in all honestly needed a nerf that said.... im sure there were better ways to handle it that said players are still making it work unlike things like scourge and chrono so it cant be as bad as what many people are making it out to be. Again i still dont think the nerfs were applied in the best way but it cant go back to what it was before for obvious reasons much like scourge cant go back to how it was for obvious reasons. > > > > > > > > Overcharge shot imo is not that big of a deal it needs the cast time but the self knock back should prob be removed, > > > > Rev staff 5 needs the cast time there is no point to argue this instant cc with no tell/ cast time is not coming back, > > > > Pulmonary Impact is imo still decent cause ive seen it pop for decent chunks of damage even without critting, > > > > Hammer warrior might need some reworks but i still dont think most of the cc in that weapon kit should get heavy damage back. > > > > > > > > Late edit: I will be the first to tell you scourge is not in a healthy place > > > > Its just as busted mechanically as chrono is. > > > > > > PI is not "decent", its completely unplayable. For one, it *cant* crit. Thats its gimmick. As for the damage? Its pathetic. Youre looking at an average 200-400 damage per PI. Its so bad, no build runs it. At all. It was already bad pre-patch (only one build ran it, and Im pretty sure even on that build it was the wrong choice), but then it got nerfed by **66%**, more than twice as much as the average damaging skill. Its just unplayable. Its so bad its an outright troll pick. > > > > Headshot = 3/4s cast time, ini increased to 6..there you can have back 3/4 of the original dmg > > You could just write "I want Pulmonary Impact to be completely unplayable", it wouldve saved time and space. But no, you could simply revert the PI nerf, rever the accidental overnerf it got before that, and the skill would be fine. You simply want PI because of the easy spammable **Head shot** which still sit at 4 ini and 0 cast time...where all other daze/stun got a clear cast time to allow some sort of counterplay when all stars align, a daze that's even faster than any common reflect....meanwhile you complain about lightning rod considering it "unhealthy"...but somehow headshot spam is not because...bias ofc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > i dont agree i think some nerfs will solve some of the main problems. > > > > > They have already said that this initial nerf patch was mainly to get everything on a quick standard and that things will be evaluated more going forward. Meaning that somethings will be buffed on a case by case and some more things will still be nerfed on a case by case. base healing on pressing f on a downed player is a prime example where more nerfs are needed. Some cc skills getting their damage back if they have big tells or getting the cc removed entirely for big raw damage instead is a prime example where more buffs are needed > > > > > > > > > > One cannot simply say more nerfs wont solve anything because in many cases it actually makes more sense to nerf. > > > > > Your examples of scourge, chorno, etc require reworks and thats more work than making small nerfs. Simply buffing those things is also not a solution because we already know what those professions were strong and it was unhealthy. > > > > > > > > > > The nerfs actually brought renegade into a spot where its doing really well so imo some times nerfs do solve problems. > > > > > > > > > > Mirage is kind of a rough one because it in all honestly needed a nerf that said.... im sure there were better ways to handle it that said players are still making it work unlike things like scourge and chrono so it cant be as bad as what many people are making it out to be. Again i still dont think the nerfs were applied in the best way but it cant go back to what it was before for obvious reasons much like scourge cant go back to how it was for obvious reasons. > > > > > > > > > > Overcharge shot imo is not that big of a deal it needs the cast time but the self knock back should prob be removed, > > > > > Rev staff 5 needs the cast time there is no point to argue this instant cc with no tell/ cast time is not coming back, > > > > > Pulmonary Impact is imo still decent cause ive seen it pop for decent chunks of damage even without critting, > > > > > Hammer warrior might need some reworks but i still dont think most of the cc in that weapon kit should get heavy damage back. > > > > > > > > > > Late edit: I will be the first to tell you scourge is not in a healthy place > > > > > Its just as busted mechanically as chrono is. > > > > > > > > PI is not "decent", its completely unplayable. For one, it *cant* crit. Thats its gimmick. As for the damage? Its pathetic. Youre looking at an average 200-400 damage per PI. Its so bad, no build runs it. At all. It was already bad pre-patch (only one build ran it, and Im pretty sure even on that build it was the wrong choice), but then it got nerfed by **66%**, more than twice as much as the average damaging skill. Its just unplayable. Its so bad its an outright troll pick. > > > > > > Headshot = 3/4s cast time, ini increased to 6..there you can have back 3/4 of the original dmg > > > > You could just write "I want Pulmonary Impact to be completely unplayable", it wouldve saved time and space. But no, you could simply revert the PI nerf, rever the accidental overnerf it got before that, and the skill would be fine. > > You simply want PI because of the easy spammable **Head shot** which still sit at 4 ini and 0 cast time...where all other daze/stun got a clear cast time to allow some sort of counterplay when all stars align, a daze that's even faster than any common reflect....meanwhile you complain about lightning rod considering it "unhealthy"...but somehow headshot spam is not because...bias ofc "Easily spammable". Spoken like someone who has never played the build. You didnt spam it. For one, thats a surefire way of getting no interrupts at all, but the damage, even if we revert both of the nerfs, *just isnt worth it*. You interrupt key skills, to get that *and* the damage. If you just want to spam a single skill for damage, you use Shadowshot. You always used Shadowshot for that. I also dont know how to tell you this, but youre wrong on *both* parts of the next sentence. First, it has a cast-time. Its a very short one, but its there. Second, there are a lot of daze/stun skills that dont have a cast time. More even that have the same short cast time Headshot has. Power Lock, Glyph of Equality, Diversion, Primal Echoes all of these are dazes without a cast time. And they dont daze for 0.25 seconds, they daze for a full second at least. Worse yet, they dont even have a travel time. Short cast times ones, youve got stuff like Concussion Shot, Katabatic wind, Chaos Storm and a couple others I cant be bothered to list. Stuns? Shocking Aura, Static shield, Slick Shoes, various ones that dont have a cast time either. Eh, that was when I was under the impression its nerf indeed didnt go through the patch. At this point its fine. But its also just far stronger than PI while being far easier to use. Thats ridiculous. 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Arheundel.6451 Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > > i dont agree i think some nerfs will solve some of the main problems. > > > > > > They have already said that this initial nerf patch was mainly to get everything on a quick standard and that things will be evaluated more going forward. Meaning that somethings will be buffed on a case by case and some more things will still be nerfed on a case by case. base healing on pressing f on a downed player is a prime example where more nerfs are needed. Some cc skills getting their damage back if they have big tells or getting the cc removed entirely for big raw damage instead is a prime example where more buffs are needed > > > > > > > > > > > > One cannot simply say more nerfs wont solve anything because in many cases it actually makes more sense to nerf. > > > > > > Your examples of scourge, chorno, etc require reworks and thats more work than making small nerfs. Simply buffing those things is also not a solution because we already know what those professions were strong and it was unhealthy. > > > > > > > > > > > > The nerfs actually brought renegade into a spot where its doing really well so imo some times nerfs do solve problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage is kind of a rough one because it in all honestly needed a nerf that said.... im sure there were better ways to handle it that said players are still making it work unlike things like scourge and chrono so it cant be as bad as what many people are making it out to be. Again i still dont think the nerfs were applied in the best way but it cant go back to what it was before for obvious reasons much like scourge cant go back to how it was for obvious reasons. > > > > > > > > > > > > Overcharge shot imo is not that big of a deal it needs the cast time but the self knock back should prob be removed, > > > > > > Rev staff 5 needs the cast time there is no point to argue this instant cc with no tell/ cast time is not coming back, > > > > > > Pulmonary Impact is imo still decent cause ive seen it pop for decent chunks of damage even without critting, > > > > > > Hammer warrior might need some reworks but i still dont think most of the cc in that weapon kit should get heavy damage back. > > > > > > > > > > > > Late edit: I will be the first to tell you scourge is not in a healthy place > > > > > > Its just as busted mechanically as chrono is. > > > > > > > > > > PI is not "decent", its completely unplayable. For one, it *cant* crit. Thats its gimmick. As for the damage? Its pathetic. Youre looking at an average 200-400 damage per PI. Its so bad, no build runs it. At all. It was already bad pre-patch (only one build ran it, and Im pretty sure even on that build it was the wrong choice), but then it got nerfed by **66%**, more than twice as much as the average damaging skill. Its just unplayable. Its so bad its an outright troll pick. > > > > > > > > Headshot = 3/4s cast time, ini increased to 6..there you can have back 3/4 of the original dmg > > > > > > You could just write "I want Pulmonary Impact to be completely unplayable", it wouldve saved time and space. But no, you could simply revert the PI nerf, rever the accidental overnerf it got before that, and the skill would be fine. > > > > You simply want PI because of the easy spammable **Head shot** which still sit at 4 ini and 0 cast time...where all other daze/stun got a clear cast time to allow some sort of counterplay when all stars align, a daze that's even faster than any common reflect....meanwhile you complain about lightning rod considering it "unhealthy"...but somehow headshot spam is not because...bias ofc > > "Easily spammable". Spoken like someone who has never played the build. You didnt spam it. For one, thats a surefire way of getting no interrupts at all, but the damage, even if we revert both of the nerfs, *just isnt worth it*. You interrupt key skills, to get that *and* the damage. If you just want to spam a single skill for damage, you use Shadowshot. You always used Shadowshot for that. > > I also dont know how to tell you this, but youre wrong on *both* parts of the next sentence. First, it has a cast-time. Its a very short one, but its there. Second, there are a lot of daze/stun skills that dont have a cast time. More even that have the same short cast time Headshot has. Power Lock, Glyph of Equality, Diversion, Primal Echoes all of these are dazes without a cast time. And they dont daze for 0.25 seconds, they daze for a full second at least. Worse yet, they dont even have a travel time. Short cast times ones, youve got stuff like Concussion Shot, Katabatic wind, Chaos Storm and a couple others I cant be bothered to list. Stuns? Shocking Aura, Static shield, Slick Shoes, various ones that dont have a cast time either. > > Eh, that was when I was under the impression its nerf indeed didnt go through the patch. At this point its fine. But its also just far stronger than PI while being far easier to use. Thats ridiculous. You play semantic try to hold your argument....then I'll use a more " precise" explanation : -Few years back they buffed AA dmg for nerfs following an "idea" from the devs across this lines : "let thieves use ini only for important skills but let's buff AA so they have pressure anyway without using ini" yeah...absurd but anyway -Thieves were doing close to Backstab levels of dmg with the AA spam...no ini..free dmg -Trickery/dd d/p build -3-4k dmg with AA spam and a 15 ini free to be used for headshot spam which **ridiculously** trigger PI even on enemy AA and it was another 3-4k dmg from the trait..-_- -Even raising an arm and the thief was like :headshot lol, headshot lol, headshot lol -AA spam, pewpew...raise an arm..headshot lol, headshot lol But hey you're still trying to compare headshot to zerker melee d/d weaver with no cleansing or water healing...as I have said..you're biased, but hey you can have your lr nerf....nothing change much, LR zerker is only played at high levels by dozen or so of exp eles..nowhere else, a nerf to LR or shocking aura or anything else you can cry about ele atm...still wouldn't change anything. I am used to play with tickling dmg, 1.2k dmg on 15s CD skills with AA doing 300-400 dmg....so? Go on ..let's nerf this whole game out of the amazon servers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > > > i dont agree i think some nerfs will solve some of the main problems. > > > > > > > They have already said that this initial nerf patch was mainly to get everything on a quick standard and that things will be evaluated more going forward. Meaning that somethings will be buffed on a case by case and some more things will still be nerfed on a case by case. base healing on pressing f on a downed player is a prime example where more nerfs are needed. Some cc skills getting their damage back if they have big tells or getting the cc removed entirely for big raw damage instead is a prime example where more buffs are needed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One cannot simply say more nerfs wont solve anything because in many cases it actually makes more sense to nerf. > > > > > > > Your examples of scourge, chorno, etc require reworks and thats more work than making small nerfs. Simply buffing those things is also not a solution because we already know what those professions were strong and it was unhealthy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The nerfs actually brought renegade into a spot where its doing really well so imo some times nerfs do solve problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage is kind of a rough one because it in all honestly needed a nerf that said.... im sure there were better ways to handle it that said players are still making it work unlike things like scourge and chrono so it cant be as bad as what many people are making it out to be. Again i still dont think the nerfs were applied in the best way but it cant go back to what it was before for obvious reasons much like scourge cant go back to how it was for obvious reasons. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Overcharge shot imo is not that big of a deal it needs the cast time but the self knock back should prob be removed, > > > > > > > Rev staff 5 needs the cast time there is no point to argue this instant cc with no tell/ cast time is not coming back, > > > > > > > Pulmonary Impact is imo still decent cause ive seen it pop for decent chunks of damage even without critting, > > > > > > > Hammer warrior might need some reworks but i still dont think most of the cc in that weapon kit should get heavy damage back. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Late edit: I will be the first to tell you scourge is not in a healthy place > > > > > > > Its just as busted mechanically as chrono is. > > > > > > > > > > > > PI is not "decent", its completely unplayable. For one, it *cant* crit. Thats its gimmick. As for the damage? Its pathetic. Youre looking at an average 200-400 damage per PI. Its so bad, no build runs it. At all. It was already bad pre-patch (only one build ran it, and Im pretty sure even on that build it was the wrong choice), but then it got nerfed by **66%**, more than twice as much as the average damaging skill. Its just unplayable. Its so bad its an outright troll pick. > > > > > > > > > > Headshot = 3/4s cast time, ini increased to 6..there you can have back 3/4 of the original dmg > > > > > > > > You could just write "I want Pulmonary Impact to be completely unplayable", it wouldve saved time and space. But no, you could simply revert the PI nerf, rever the accidental overnerf it got before that, and the skill would be fine. > > > > > > You simply want PI because of the easy spammable **Head shot** which still sit at 4 ini and 0 cast time...where all other daze/stun got a clear cast time to allow some sort of counterplay when all stars align, a daze that's even faster than any common reflect....meanwhile you complain about lightning rod considering it "unhealthy"...but somehow headshot spam is not because...bias ofc > > > > "Easily spammable". Spoken like someone who has never played the build. You didnt spam it. For one, thats a surefire way of getting no interrupts at all, but the damage, even if we revert both of the nerfs, *just isnt worth it*. You interrupt key skills, to get that *and* the damage. If you just want to spam a single skill for damage, you use Shadowshot. You always used Shadowshot for that. > > > > I also dont know how to tell you this, but youre wrong on *both* parts of the next sentence. First, it has a cast-time. Its a very short one, but its there. Second, there are a lot of daze/stun skills that dont have a cast time. More even that have the same short cast time Headshot has. Power Lock, Glyph of Equality, Diversion, Primal Echoes all of these are dazes without a cast time. And they dont daze for 0.25 seconds, they daze for a full second at least. Worse yet, they dont even have a travel time. Short cast times ones, youve got stuff like Concussion Shot, Katabatic wind, Chaos Storm and a couple others I cant be bothered to list. Stuns? Shocking Aura, Static shield, Slick Shoes, various ones that dont have a cast time either. > > > > Eh, that was when I was under the impression its nerf indeed didnt go through the patch. At this point its fine. But its also just far stronger than PI while being far easier to use. Thats ridiculous. > > You play semantic try to hold your argument....then I'll use a more " precise" explanation : > No, Im just pointing out that, under no semantical interpretation, are you not wrong. > -Few years back they buffed AA dmg for nerfs following an "idea" from the devs across this lines : "let thieves use ini only for important skills but let's buff AA so they have pressure anyway without using ini" yeah...absurd but anyway > Doesnt sound "absurd" to me. Sounds pretty sensible. Thieves cant cycle through a bunch of hardhitting skills accross 2+ weapons like, say, an Engineer could. Their auto-attacks should do a bit higher damage to make up for that handicap. Well, that is if they were supposed to 1v1, but we all know how that works out. > -Thieves were doing close to Backstab levels of dmg with the AA spam...no ini..free dmg > Now this is just blatantly wrong. Based on the patch notes, Double Strike did 0.74 damage, Wild Strike 0.8 damage and Lotus Strike 1.1 damage. The entire chain did only 0.44 more damage than a backstab. Each individual hit? Less than half. So no, not "close to backstab level daage". > -Trickery/dd d/p build > This part is right. Its the only one that is right, but its right. > -3-4k dmg with AA spam and a 15 ini free to be used for headshot spam which **ridiculously** trigger PI even on enemy AA and it was another 3-4k dmg from the trait..-_- > This part is not. How exactly do you think 0.74 scaling skill did 4k damage? That would mean the current version of double would do more than 2k damage (0.4 vs 0.74). It does 1.2k. Youre also clearly talking about the version 3 nerfs ago, not the pre-patch version. You also keep repeating "headshot spam" as if that makes it less true. As I said, spamming headshot was bad. You didnt do it. If you want to spam anything, you spam shadowshot. Once gain, it did more damage. > -Even raising an arm and the thief was like :headshot lol, headshot lol, headshot lol > You shouldve considered yourself lucky if they did that. That means those thieves are useless and a free win. Just stow weapons, watch them run out of initiative, then kill them as they have no damage and no way to run away. Easy. > -AA spam, pewpew...raise an arm..headshot lol, headshot lol > Repeating the same wrong thing doesnt make it less wrong, it just makes it clear you didnt make a mistake but legitimately believe the wrong thing. > But hey you're still trying to compare headshot to zerker melee d/d weaver with no cleansing or water healing...as I have said..you're biased, but hey you can have your lr nerf....nothing change much, LR zerker is only played at high levels by dozen or so of exp eles..nowhere else, a nerf to LR or shocking aura or anything else you can cry about ele atm...still wouldn't change anything. > What, you think the *Thief* had more cleansing or healing? Yknow, using a build that had 1 extra source of healing and only shadowstep and agility for cleanses (with the agility version that removed 1 condition)? Hell, I see youre suspiciously leaving out Weavers barriers, but I digress. Its funny that you call me biased when its clear youre the only one biased. *Hard*. I mean you keep talking about a build you clearly never played or understood given that you keep calling it "headshot spam". > I am used to play with tickling dmg, 1.2k dmg on 15s CD skills with AA doing 300-400 dmg....so? Go on ..let's nerf this whole game out of the amazon servers! I hate to break it to you, but while thieves dagger autos were faster, Rangers Greatsword *always* had higher coefficients. If your AAs did 300-400 damage, then Thieves did 250-350. Of course, that whole thing is nonsense. No build you ever played had even remotely that low damage, not even bunkers. But funny enough, PI right now is about the 1.2k damage on 15s CD part. Just even worse than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arheundel.6451 Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 Run out of ini? WTF...did you read what I have wrote?....the thief used to just spamm the AA regardless of how the dmg you think it was!! You can't keep stowing weapons while eating dmg in your face! Again you try to act smart by taking literally the words : headshot spam... you know exactly that a thief "headshotting spam" is not a thief using headshot 3 times in a row...that's exactly the situation I have described so stop , your argument is built on fallacy . Can we please stop going in circles now ? We just remove the relation dmg=CC from every class so nobody can feel "left out" , we remove LR and PI dmg remains dead, bring your dmg somewhere else , AA- backstab etc etc..whatever as long as it's not PI Done everybody happy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > Run out of ini? kitten...did you read what I have wrote?....the thief used to just spamm the AA regardless of how the dmg you think it was!! You can't keep stowing weapons while eating dmg in your face! > You said they were spamming headshot. Thats when you stow the weapon. If theyre not, you fight back. Their autoattacks do more damage than yours, but you have a ton of damaging skills, and they do not. Remember, even during HoT, thief was not a good duelist. They were still only a +1-class (and one that, for most of HoT, didnt do too hot). > Again you try to act smart by taking literally the words : headshot spam... you know exactly that a thief "headshotting spam" is not a thief using headshot 3 times in a row...that's exactly the situation I have described so stop , your argument is built on fallacy . > Uh, no thats *exactly* what headshotting spam is. What you described is also that, but lets give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you mean you only use headshot when they use an attack. That *still* is really bad play. You dont headshot on an autoattack. Again, if you want to use ini just for damage, use Shadowshot. Hell, for a lot of attacks, you still use shadowshot, because blind is better than interrupt since it doesnt refund their cooldown. If they do that, you still get a pretty free win, as they waste initiative on bad headshots, you get to use your big skills, and the thief just looks silly. > Can we please stop going in circles now ? We just remove the relation dmg=CC from every class so nobody can feel "left out" , we remove LR and PI dmg remains dead, bring your dmg somewhere else , AA- backstab etc etc..whatever as long as it's not PI > Bad idea. Theyve already confirmed that several CC skills will get their damage back (because the current situation is, simply put, really bad). PI in its current state is a wasted trait slot. Noone will ever pick it up because its beyond unplayable. There are 2 options. Either revert the nerf and accidental overnerf, and have it be a slightly weak, but at least usable trait. Or you just rework it to something completely different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 yeah old PI was garbage but its another case of over nerfing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arheundel.6451 Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > Run out of ini? kitten...did you read what I have wrote?....the thief used to just spamm the AA regardless of how the dmg you think it was!! You can't keep stowing weapons while eating dmg in your face! > > > > You said they were spamming headshot. Thats when you stow the weapon. If theyre not, you fight back. Their autoattacks do more damage than yours, but you have a ton of damaging skills, and they do not. Remember, even during HoT, thief was not a good duelist. They were still only a +1-class (and one that, for most of HoT, didnt do too hot). > > > Again you try to act smart by taking literally the words : headshot spam... you know exactly that a thief "headshotting spam" is not a thief using headshot 3 times in a row...that's exactly the situation I have described so stop , your argument is built on fallacy . > > > > Uh, no thats *exactly* what headshotting spam is. What you described is also that, but lets give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you mean you only use headshot when they use an attack. That *still* is really bad play. You dont headshot on an autoattack. Again, if you want to use ini just for damage, use Shadowshot. Hell, for a lot of attacks, you still use shadowshot, because blind is better than interrupt since it doesnt refund their cooldown. If they do that, you still get a pretty free win, as they waste initiative on bad headshots, you get to use your big skills, and the thief just looks silly. > > > Can we please stop going in circles now ? We just remove the relation dmg=CC from every class so nobody can feel "left out" , we remove LR and PI dmg remains dead, bring your dmg somewhere else , AA- backstab etc etc..whatever as long as it's not PI > > > > Bad idea. Theyve already confirmed that several CC skills will get their damage back (because the current situation is, simply put, really bad). PI in its current state is a wasted trait slot. Noone will ever pick it up because its beyond unplayable. There are 2 options. Either revert the nerf and accidental overnerf, and have it be a slightly weak, but at least usable trait. Or you just rework it to something completely different. > > > PI with **Impacting distraction** used to trigger on AA ..either a bug or a feature which doesn't make sense and btw the devs were referring to give some dmg back to war skills, specifically hammer which is terrible atm..really terrible, no mention of PI. A trait that triggers even on AA...and forgot to mention **sigil of Absorption and Draining** PvP/wvw ..finally for the last time, people should stop expecting top duelling abilities from a class that can run miles in a split second Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > Run out of ini? kitten...did you read what I have wrote?....the thief used to just spamm the AA regardless of how the dmg you think it was!! You can't keep stowing weapons while eating dmg in your face! > > > > > > > You said they were spamming headshot. Thats when you stow the weapon. If theyre not, you fight back. Their autoattacks do more damage than yours, but you have a ton of damaging skills, and they do not. Remember, even during HoT, thief was not a good duelist. They were still only a +1-class (and one that, for most of HoT, didnt do too hot). > > > > > Again you try to act smart by taking literally the words : headshot spam... you know exactly that a thief "headshotting spam" is not a thief using headshot 3 times in a row...that's exactly the situation I have described so stop , your argument is built on fallacy . > > > > > > > Uh, no thats *exactly* what headshotting spam is. What you described is also that, but lets give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you mean you only use headshot when they use an attack. That *still* is really bad play. You dont headshot on an autoattack. Again, if you want to use ini just for damage, use Shadowshot. Hell, for a lot of attacks, you still use shadowshot, because blind is better than interrupt since it doesnt refund their cooldown. If they do that, you still get a pretty free win, as they waste initiative on bad headshots, you get to use your big skills, and the thief just looks silly. > > > > > Can we please stop going in circles now ? We just remove the relation dmg=CC from every class so nobody can feel "left out" , we remove LR and PI dmg remains dead, bring your dmg somewhere else , AA- backstab etc etc..whatever as long as it's not PI > > > > > > > Bad idea. Theyve already confirmed that several CC skills will get their damage back (because the current situation is, simply put, really bad). PI in its current state is a wasted trait slot. Noone will ever pick it up because its beyond unplayable. There are 2 options. Either revert the nerf and accidental overnerf, and have it be a slightly weak, but at least usable trait. Or you just rework it to something completely different. > > > > > > > > PI with **Impacting distraction** used to trigger on AA ..either a bug or a feature which doesn't make sense and btw the devs were referring to give some dmg back to war skills, specifically hammer which is terrible atm..really terrible, no mention of PI. > Of course it used to trigger on it. It triggers on an interrupt. You can interrupt auto attacks. Of course it makes sense. That doesnt mean wasting headshot on autoattacks wasnt really bad. It was. Also, Hammer is still *miles* better than PI. Hammer is actually a usable weaponset, even if not great. PI is unusable. > A trait that triggers even on AA...and forgot to mention **sigil of Absorption and Draining** PvP/wvw ..finally for the last time, people should stop expecting top duelling abilities from a class that can run miles in a split second What about those? Draining wasnt available in PvP (and in WvW thief did use them, but still was far from the best roamer), and Absorption was mostly not used. Did they make thief broken? Nope, not the best roamer in WvW, often not even a viable class in PvP during HoT. "people should stop expecting top duelling abilities from a class that can run miles in a split second" in sPvP, you have a point (which doesnt mean I like the current situation, but the only way to fix it is to remove shortbow 5, and I dont want to take that away from people who enjoy it). In WvW? Ranger and Warrior can do that. Hell, Warrior actually *outruns* Thief on flat ground. No, in WvW the ability to move really far really fast doesnt mean you shouldnt be a good duelist. Its only thief that isnt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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