Pistol thief

[bethekey.8314]

> @"fumcheg.1936" said:

> Just imagine these guys faces when they'd find out that burn guardian can apply like 14-15 stacks of burn. I'm not quite sure but following this thread maths its about like over 1 billion damage?

 

Imagine this guy's face when he realizes guardian (if I'm not mistaken, of course) only has one damaging condition.

 

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"bethekey.8314" said:

> > @"fumcheg.1936" said:

> > Just imagine these guys faces when they'd find out that burn guardian can apply like 14-15 stacks of burn. I'm not quite sure but following this thread maths its about like over 1 billion damage?

>

> Imagine this guy's face when he realizes guardian (if I'm not mistaken, of course) only has one damaging condition.

>

 

immagine his face when he realizes burn guard cant perma stealth, teleport around use shit like shadow portal and also apply bazilion cover condis over his burns ;p

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"bethekey.8314" said:

> > > @"fumcheg.1936" said:

> > > Just imagine these guys faces when they'd find out that burn guardian can apply like 14-15 stacks of burn. I'm not quite sure but following this thread maths its about like over 1 billion damage?

> >

> > Imagine this guy's face when he realizes guardian (if I'm not mistaken, of course) only has one damaging condition.

> >

>

> immagine his face when he realizes burn guard cant perma stealth, teleport around use kitten like shadow portal and also apply bazilion cover condis over his burns ;p

 

"permastealth" yeah, neither can P/D condi. Its got only 2 ways to enter stealth out of combat and theyre both less than ideal when used that way. And in-combat you can easily stop them from obtaining stealth. Also, condi thief only applies 1 cover condi, Weakness. The other condis are the condis that actually do damage. Besides, its not like burst clears care if you have 1 condi, or 3.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"bethekey.8314" said:

> > @"fumcheg.1936" said:

> > Just imagine these guys faces when they'd find out that burn guardian can apply like 14-15 stacks of burn. I'm not quite sure but following this thread maths its about like over 1 billion damage?

>

> Imagine this guy's face when he realizes guardian (if I'm not mistaken, of course) only has one damaging condition.

>

 

Imagine this guys face when he realises core necro, engineer, mesmer, Revenant and Warrior exist, who also do "billions of damage" with multiple damaging condis. Then imagine it when the same guy realises that despite that, most of these builds arent viable.

[Crab Fear.1624]

If there is a problem with p/d condi thief, is is shadow strike->repeater

 

The skill repeater needs to be a 1 time use, and then go back to shadow strike.

 

Don't let thief spam 3 without risk a few times from ranged.

 

I think you can use it 3 times after one shadow strike........that is bad.

 

The initiative doesn't need to be put at 8.

 

Just make it a one time use like the s/d chain.

 

Thieves are allowed to have a burst.

 

If it was one time use they can only auto, bolo, and try to get back in ranged; or maybe throw dancing dagger, but its not cheap and bursty.

 

Fully traited and geared for poison damage serpents touch only does 5k damage over 15 seconds.

 

To get bigger damage you need to use venoms and steal into a dual attack, so its not steal by itself.

 

 

 

[bethekey.8314]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> Imagine this guys face when he realises core necro, engineer, mesmer, Revenant and Warrior exist, who also do "billions of damage" with multiple damaging condis. Then imagine it when the same guy realises that despite that, most of these builds arent viable.

 

It's almost as if we need evidence of builds outside of a bubble, like...actual PvP gameplay videos? When are you gonna get on that for me? I think this is the 5th or so time I've asked after providing 3 myself.

 

Remember, top players only. Can't have any noobies in here.

 

[memausz.7264]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> Hopefully they don't, it's annoying but not anywhere near op. Imagine we nerfed builds cuz their annoying lmao oh that's right that's what 90% of this games pvp community does instead of trying to get gud lol.

> Man I really hope this team starts ignoring these forums or pvp just gonna keep bleeding players and be totally dead by 2021.

 

Sorry, but you're just wrong. There are so many professions and elite specs that cannot respond to this build at all, and neither can they disengage because thief has highest mobility in the game. It's busted, dude. I don't need to play it to know that it does too much on so many builds - I don't just play engi - I play necro, I play rev, I play ranger, I play ele, I play warrior, and I'm getting into thief, too.

[Leonidrex.5649]

from power mirage perspective, you get hit from stealth. If I dont have disortion im dead from 100% hp.

If I have disort I need to get 3 clones withit 2s, if I cant im dead from 100%hp.

If I get 3 clones I have to disort, and lose only about 60% of my hp, then the real fight starts, and by real fight I mean thief is stealthed, im at 40% hp with no disort, only way I can hurt them is to blindly hit the noscope gs2, and even if I do I have weakness, this is perspective of a build with no cleanse.

 

As condi mirage, I eat burst, against bad thief I press dodge and remove all the poison and shit on them because they dont understand how cleansing works,

against good thief they follow with torment,immob and vulnerability instead of more poison stacks. I disort or die from full hp, but if I disort I can wait out confusion,immob and cleanse the poison, so its fine. but any other follow through damage rips me new one.

this is perspective of a build with heavy cleanses, have long cooldown ready or die from full hp. I dont even have to mention that thief is no danger whatsoever since better mobility,plasma stealth, shadowportal etc exist.

honestly they can nerf cthief really easily without gutting it by implementing many small adjustments like removing 100% pfinisher from the shots, reducing venom on all AI to 1maximum ( so you dont share 30k poison to clones etc -> it wouldnt even affect 95% of the games but fixed some bullshit unlucky scenarios )

nerf some steal poison, reduce confusion from 6 for 3s to 4 for 4s.

nerf repeater hit torment damage and add more damage to repeater shots, basic attacks, dancing dagger and choking gas. etc.

[Crab Fear.1624]

It is funny how no one is actually able to say what is wrong with the build.

 

There is only "infinite stealth, infinite evades, infinite poison, infinite mobility".

 

All lol statements.

 

The build does have damage, and it can duel, but it is not unbeatable.

 

It can be los'd.

 

It only gets 1 port through wall (steal) with no return.

 

It has to land the first shadow strike to really start doing damage.

 

If a thief uses his elite shares his venoms with thieves guild, then the burst will be really high, but the same restrictions apply from above.

 

The thief wont have perma swiftness, and only get it from trickery for 10.

 

More damge means no lynx runes, and if they run lynx it is quite a bit less potent.

 

They can not just port in and out over and over.

 

All of deadly arts has been nerfed.

 

Shadow arts has been nerfed.

 

The problem is the spammability of repeater, and the fact that many players are not bringing enough cleanse and wasting it.

 

Rangers, necros, guards, mallyx revs, tempests, daredevils, and players who can manage cleanse and abuse terrain are not going to struggle with the build like many are making it out to be.

 

Not really seeing how it is getting to some of the mesmer/mirages I have seen playing lately either.

 

The very cheap repeater spam and poison app is what should be chopped (because of the spammability of repeater).

 

Every trait, every skill has been nerfed.

 

Press 3 to win.

 

 

 

[fumcheg.1936]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"bethekey.8314" said:

> > > @"fumcheg.1936" said:

> > > Just imagine these guys faces when they'd find out that burn guardian can apply like 14-15 stacks of burn. I'm not quite sure but following this thread maths its about like over 1 billion damage?

> >

> > Imagine this guy's face when he realizes guardian (if I'm not mistaken, of course) only has one damaging condition.

> >

>

> immagine his face when he realizes burn guard cant perma stealth, teleport around use kitten like shadow portal and also apply bazilion cover condis over his burns ;p

 

Yep, guard has like dozens of blocks instead of stealth and infinite access to burn. But I believe you will start to whine about guard later when you r fed up with thief whining. Because it's difficult to whine about several things, you need sufficient multitask skill for this. But ppl who are able to multitask whould not whine about condi thief in the first place, cos you know they can press condi cleanse while moving... Looks like we got some closed loop here.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"bethekey.8314" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > Imagine this guys face when he realises core necro, engineer, mesmer, Revenant and Warrior exist, who also do "billions of damage" with multiple damaging condis. Then imagine it when the same guy realises that despite that, most of these builds arent viable.

>

> It's almost as if we need evidence of builds outside of a bubble, like...actual PvP gameplay videos? When are you gonna get on that for me? I think this is the 5th or so time I've asked after providing 3 myself.

>

 

Are you asking for evidence that these builds ... exist? I mean of course they exist, its not like the tools were magically whisked away. But you wont find many high tier examples of these builds because "despite that, most of these builds arent viable.". But sure, [here](

) we have a guy playing condi soulbeast (Oh I forgot to mention Soulbeast. Whoops), in top 50. You will notice that when people fail to cleanse his condis, they die quickly. [Here](

) you have a condi mirage. Same situation. [Here](

) is a condi rev. [Here](

) is a condi warrior (sadly no PvP videos I could find from post-big balance update). [Here](

) is condi necro. Condi Engineer, why for that one I will just refer back to you. If Im not mistaken you played a condi engineer build yourself, havent you?

 

But, to sum it up, what we see here is a bunch builds that do considerably more damage with the conditions they apply, applying the same deluge of conditions. So then, why are most of these builds not even viable? Well, these videos also show the answer to that. People have ways to deal with condis. In the mirage video you see a spellbreaker being hit by a metric crapton of condis including around 10 confusion stacks, yet he is completely impervious. Why? Resistance. Others use burst condi clear. And the same is true for condi thief.

[bethekey.8314]

@"fumcheg.1936"

 

You can always tell someone's lost an argument when they resort to hyperbole and personal insults. Try to stay polite here :)

 

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> from power mirage perspective, you get hit from stealth. If I dont have disortion im dead from 100% hp.

> If I have disort I need to get 3 clones withit 2s, if I cant im dead from 100%hp.

> If I get 3 clones I have to disort, and lose only about 60% of my hp, then the real fight starts, and by real fight I mean thief is stealthed, im at 40% hp with no disort, only way I can hurt them is to blindly hit the noscope gs2, and even if I do I have weakness, this is perspective of a build with no cleanse.

>

 

You have also mentioned before that you run almost no condi clears. Of course you will have trouble with a condi build. Though even then, if Im not mistaken Elusive mind is the main choice for grandmasters now, isnt it? Dodge when the thief used his steal, and you will clear a couple of the condis there already. And if you dont spam skills, confusion does nothing. Simple enough.

 

> As condi mirage, I eat burst, against bad thief I press dodge and remove all the poison and kitten on them because they dont understand how cleansing works,

> against good thief they follow with torment,immob and vulnerability instead of more poison stacks. I disort or die from full hp, but if I disort I can wait out confusion,immob and cleanse the poison, so its fine. but any other follow through damage rips me new one.

 

I get the feeling youre not really aware of the build or how it works. First of all the only way for it to follow up with immob and vulnerability is Bola shot. But you can dodge that, and they will have used up a lot of initiative they cant dump into repeater. Second, if theyre already using repeater (Which is the way they stack poison on you), they have no way to apply torment other than dancing dagger, which is even less initiative efficient. But if they just stack a couple stacks of poison on you, just fight back. It will take forever for it to kill you if they dont dump initiative further.

 

> this is perspective of a build with heavy cleanses, have long cooldown ready or die from full hp. I dont even have to mention that thief is no danger whatsoever since better mobility,plasma stealth, shadowportal etc exist.

> honestly they can nerf cthief really easily without gutting it by implementing many small adjustments like removing 100% pfinisher from the shots, reducing venom on all AI to 1maximum ( so you dont share 30k poison to clones etc -> it wouldnt even affect 95% of the games but fixed some kitten unlucky scenarios )

 

Yeah I can agree with this. Thieves guild is a dumb skill, it shouldnt really be a viable choice just because of venoms. The 100% finisher is weird as well, maybe that way we can drop the pretense that cloaked in shadow is any good and just revert it.

 

> nerf some steal poison, reduce confusion from 6 for 3s to 4 for 4s.

 

I mean the only thing you can do for the steal poison is reduce its duration. Which really doesnt matter. Confusion, sure why not. Its a dumb condition that punishes misplays anyway and is less useful on good players.

 

> nerf repeater hit torment damage and add more damage to repeater shots, basic attacks, dancing dagger and choking gas. etc.

 

Repeater doesnt apply torment. Shadow Strike does, but there is no reason to nerf shadow strike. Adding more damage to autoattacks would be nice for the P/P build. Choking Gas falls under their "CC cant do damage" rule.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"bethekey.8314" said:

> @""fumcheg.1936"

>

> You can always tell someone's lost an argument when they resort to hyperbole and personal insults. Try to stay polite here :)

>

 

... says the guy who has relied on hyperbole and personal insults from the very first thread he made (that then got deleted for personal insults). The irony is palpable.

[bethekey.8314]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> ... says the guy who has relied on hyperbole and personal insults from the very first thread he made (that then got deleted for personal insults). The irony is palpable.

 

What hyperbole? And I respond in kind, many of your opinion were insulting me over suggesting their class is over-performing :astonished:

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"bethekey.8314" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > ... says the guy who has relied on hyperbole and personal insults from the very first thread he made (that then got deleted for personal insults). The irony is palpable.

>

> What hyperbole? And I respond in kind, many of your opinion were insulting me over suggesting their class is over-performing :astonished:

 

Steal oneshotting? Being asked to use condi clears against condi builds being unreasonable? The list goes on and on.

[fumcheg.1936]

> @"bethekey.8314" said:

> @""fumcheg.1936"

>

> You can always tell someone's lost an argument when they resort to hyperbole and personal insults. Try to stay polite here :)

>

 

I'm absolutelly polite here. You don't know how thief works and because of this you continue crying here. This is a fact that was revealed in previous thread. People were trying to help with advise how exactly you can become better in pvp and thereby solve your little thief-complex. People are still trying to help you but to no avail. To learn how to use condi cleanse is my personal advice for both of you. Just start from the basis you know. If you need any other advices do not hesistate to ask. Thats' why we are here after all - to help each other.

[bethekey.8314]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> Steal oneshotting? Being asked to use condi clears against condi builds being unreasonable? The list goes on and on.

 

It's so tiresome to keep correcting you :( Please quote me (full quotes please!) on these instances if they're not deleted by thief reports.

[bethekey.8314]

@"fumcheg.1936"

 

Oh my, you seem a joy to be around :( I hope in a few years you'll learn how to play nicely.

 

 

 

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"bethekey.8314" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > Steal oneshotting? Being asked to use condi clears against condi builds being unreasonable? The list goes on and on.

>

> It's so tiresome to keep correcting you :( Please quote me (full quotes please!) on these instances if they're not deleted by thief reports.

 

You find something you did once and never again tiresome? My you must be a slacker.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"bethekey.8314" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > Imagine this guys face when he realises core necro, engineer, mesmer, Revenant and Warrior exist, who also do "billions of damage" with multiple damaging condis. Then imagine it when the same guy realises that despite that, most of these builds arent viable.

> >

> > It's almost as if we need evidence of builds outside of a bubble, like...actual PvP gameplay videos? When are you gonna get on that for me? I think this is the 5th or so time I've asked after providing 3 myself.

> >

>

> Are you asking for evidence that these builds ... exist? I mean of course they exist, its not like the tools were magically whisked away. But you wont find many high tier examples of these builds because "despite that, most of these builds arent viable.". But sure, [here](

) we have a guy playing condi soulbeast (Oh I forgot to mention Soulbeast. Whoops), in top 50. You will notice that when people fail to cleanse his condis, they die quickly. [Here](

) you have a condi mirage. Same situation. [Here](

) is a condi rev. [Here](

) is a condi warrior (sadly no PvP videos I could find from post-big balance update). [Here](

) is condi necro. Condi Engineer, why for that one I will just refer back to you. If Im not mistaken you played a condi engineer build yourself, havent you?

>

> But, to sum it up, what we see here is a bunch builds that do considerably more damage with the conditions they apply, applying the same deluge of conditions. So then, why are most of these builds not even viable? Well, these videos also show the answer to that. People have ways to deal with condis. In the mirage video you see a spellbreaker being hit by a metric crapton of condis including around 10 confusion stacks, yet he is completely impervious. Why? Resistance. Others use burst condi clear. And the same is true for condi thief.

 

I watched entire mirage video, not a single "condi burst" there, but its old build not adjusted to the patch so the damage could be much bigger but still, never more then 30% of someones life.

watched beggining of rev video, it takes him 3x time to kill golem then thief to kill real players

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"bethekey.8314" said:

> > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > Imagine this guys face when he realises core necro, engineer, mesmer, Revenant and Warrior exist, who also do "billions of damage" with multiple damaging condis. Then imagine it when the same guy realises that despite that, most of these builds arent viable.

> > >

> > > It's almost as if we need evidence of builds outside of a bubble, like...actual PvP gameplay videos? When are you gonna get on that for me? I think this is the 5th or so time I've asked after providing 3 myself.

> > >

> >

> > Are you asking for evidence that these builds ... exist? I mean of course they exist, its not like the tools were magically whisked away. But you wont find many high tier examples of these builds because "despite that, most of these builds arent viable.". But sure, [here](

) we have a guy playing condi soulbeast (Oh I forgot to mention Soulbeast. Whoops), in top 50. You will notice that when people fail to cleanse his condis, they die quickly. [Here](

) you have a condi mirage. Same situation. [Here](

) is a condi rev. [Here](

) is a condi warrior (sadly no PvP videos I could find from post-big balance update). [Here](

) is condi necro. Condi Engineer, why for that one I will just refer back to you. If Im not mistaken you played a condi engineer build yourself, havent you?

> >

> > But, to sum it up, what we see here is a bunch builds that do considerably more damage with the conditions they apply, applying the same deluge of conditions. So then, why are most of these builds not even viable? Well, these videos also show the answer to that. People have ways to deal with condis. In the mirage video you see a spellbreaker being hit by a metric crapton of condis including around 10 confusion stacks, yet he is completely impervious. Why? Resistance. Others use burst condi clear. And the same is true for condi thief.

>

> I watched entire mirage video, not a single "condi burst" there, but its old build not adjusted to the patch so the damage could be much bigger but still, never more then 30% of someones life.

 

There were a couple, but most didnt kill for the reasons I explained (cleanses and Resistance). There was one though towards the later mid half.

 

> watched beggining of rev video, it takes him 3x time to kill golem then thief to kill real players

 

Watch the games, not the build section.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> Hopefully they don't, it's annoying but not anywhere near op. Imagine we nerfed builds cuz their annoying lmao oh that's right that's what 90% of this games pvp community does instead of trying to get gud lol.

> Man I really hope this team starts ignoring these forums or pvp just gonna keep bleeding players and be totally dead by 2021.

 

Yeah it's getting to be ridiculous lately. It's getting to the point where there are only about 10 forum users left that you can even hold an objective discussion with.

 

I swear it's something like 90% or greater of posts in the past 3-4 months have been almost entirely based from this mob mentality of: "If it can deal damage it shouldn't be dealing damage and it needs to be nerfed." And then they also completely block themselves mentally from any sort of rational discussion or explanation.

 

We always hear many people saying that we shouldn't balance around top tier MAT play, but what we don't hear is that we shouldn't be balancing around only bellow the bell curve either. Otherwise we end up with game balance & mechanics catered towards weird low skill cap play, and then the game loses this certain "panache" if you would, that helped better distinguish great players from good players. The game begins to feel dumbed down and limited when this begins to happen.

 

Unfortunately that is what is happening lately.

[Crab Fear.1624]

Make repeater one use per shadow strike, easy to chopped down dps really simple.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > The main thing that needs to be nerfed in the build is the pistol stealth attack.

> > By no means should all 5 shots be 100% chance of projectile finishers making it a rapid blind applicator which pretty much heavily limits any counter pressure as the smoke field the used for stealth is usually still in play when they unload the attack on you.

> >

> > No other rapid fire skills in the game have 100% projectile finisher chance anymore im not sure why it still exist on thief pistol stealth attack (its likely because anet missed it) way back when the redid the projectile finisher combo system.

> >

> > The other mild issue as why people find the build super frustrating to fight is because like any stealth build in this game stealth makes up 80% of the fight time which leaves minimal counter pressure. Condis are also the safer options right now with strike damage being reduced. Basically if you dont have high burst condi cleanse, and a reveal on the ready your odds of having a fair chance to win the build match up is very minimal imo especially if you are built offensive.

> >

> > The way stealth works in this game i consider some one who stealth's for 80% of the time it takes for one of the two players to die is basically equal to not having a target to fight which is even worse if you are locked to melee combat.

> >

> > Thief players might not agree but people are right the counter play is a bit out of line here. Between blind application and stealth access there should not be a question as to why it frustrates people to no end when they get hit with it.

> >

> > That said i get thief is in a crappy ish spot right now but yeah its certainly not an enjoyable exp to fight against. I think aside from ranger, pistol condi thief has some of the highest condi burst ive ever been hit with in the game. It melts me insanely fast.

>

> Not sure how the projectile finisher is too powerful...most of the time blind from Dancing Dagger is what I use because it cripples as well as adding blind. Blind doesn’t stack so you really have to time it for the projectile finisher % to matter.

>

> As with the counter play I mentioned...to the extent that this build isn’t in stealth it is hugely vulnerable. So as much as 80% stealth uptime is concerned that’s a “either the thief seems impossible to kill or the thief just dies” situation to me.

>

> I’d agree the burst on landing everything boosted with venoms is a lot...but that might be more about whether spider venom makes sense when it basically adds 9k poison damage without even needing to share it to another ally or summon. It’s not P/D so much as the utility in combo.

 

the projectile finisher thing is more or less just something that was likely missed back when anet reworked projectile finishers on skills that can be used frequently down to 20% from 100%. Its minimal but its kind of something imo that should be looked at just as a side note.

 

Stealth in this game is a host mess but thief in itself is in a host mess situation. If anet makes it able to sustain without stealth that wont stop people from using it which would lead to other issues. IF anet gives them more damage on their power weapons people will come out again and make sure to let anet know just how obnoxious the spam is due to the nature of how the profession currently works being able to use most of its weapon skills repeatedly in some cases with no cd between them. Its overall a iffy situation.