No more open world 'raid-hard' content ala TriWurm?

[Noobix.3958]

One of the things that has made me pretty sad as a veteran player of the game is the apparent abandonment of what I call '_Open world raid-hard content_'. Im talking about TT wurm and Tequatl Rising revamp at its release. These were open world events requiring large player counts (150+), strong communication and coordination amongst the leaders of the event and often days of trial and error to find a workable strategy.

Entire communities and guilds formed around this content in the EU region that went strong for years in the hope that more of this style of content would come into GW2 but sadly they have definitely begun to die off.

I think ANET is missing a trick here. Im pretty sure a large segment of veteran players would come back to GW2 with a new 'raid-hard' open world boss event. The bragging rights of 'world first' was a massive draw to the crowds and personalities that led these events.

I dont describe them as 'raid-hard' in the sense of maximizing dps outputs and precision mechanics fulfillment. But rather in the logistical, coordination and communication challenge in itself which some masochistic commanders and players do enjoy and can be extremely challenging.

To an extent, the Chak Gerent was somewhat a return to this style of content but they nerfed the HP and the players got comfortable with the mechanics to the point that a sufficient map population is almost a guarantee of a kill.

 

Most of the new maps that have come into GW2 with the LW episodes has had some form or large scale meta event with a big boss baddie to kill. Drakkar. Branded Shatterer. But they are all just 'player count' problems. Throw enough players at it...and it dies. Boring. Lazy. Promotes afk leeching of the event.

 

I just wonder if Anet will ever consider actually challenging its open world PvE player base. The players are capable of completing it. TT wurm is still killed by dedicated communities and pug commanders to this day. 5 years after its release. There is a hunger for this kind of content.

[lare.5129]

go try raids .. after few trying you will skip that toxic content, and forget about "changeling"

[Dante.1763]

TBH TT gets killed maybe once a day by dedicated guilds to killing it. Most of the players who go to it outside of that guild do so for the achievements. They sure dont go there to listen and help the commanders who try and organize the runs.

 

Even Drakkar struggles still outside of the once a day kill to be finished.

[Voltekka.2375]

Try Serpent's Ire.

[Noobix.3958]

> @"Dante.1763" said:

> TBH TT gets killed maybe once a day by dedicated guilds to killing it. Most of the players who go to it outside of that guild do so for the achievements. They sure dont go there to listen and help the commanders who try and organize the runs.

>

> Even Drakkar struggles still outside of the once a day kill to be finished.

 

I dont think the contention that the only reason players do it is for achievements and rewards is entirely true. I think alot of players enjoy the sense of challenge in and of itself. I organise a few pug runs of TT every other day or so. Im not part of a guild or anything. I just do it by myself and try to pull together a few more commanders and enough players to run the event. With effort and explanation its entirely possible to fully pug this content. But that doesnt take away from its innate challenge. Players constantly thank me and seem genuinely impressed they were part of a massive event that needed so many players. They are getting that same feeling of 'awe' that i got when I first downed the wurm. Its a special feeling in MMOs and only replicated when the content is hard and the player investment in its success is high. These players do the metas for Shatterer, Tequatl, Drakkar and the rest every day and they are just part of the DPS blob. TT is different. and Tequatl back when it was still hard was different too.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

The strength and weakness of GW2 is that their content remains relevant, which also means you have to pick and choose what you do in game, since there are only so many hours you can play, and many of these events have timers that may or may not fit your schedule.

 

I do the Casino Pinata daily because it takes very little time, has guaranteed rewards (Amal gemstone + elegies) and has the chance of a very expensive drop. I'll do Auric Basin, if I have time, for the very same reasons: quick event, guaranteed rewards (Amal gemstone + ecto + T5/T6) and the RNG chance of a valuable drop.

 

By contrast, the last time I did TT was when I was still trying to grind out Core Mastery points.

 

I did Drakkar early on and got all the achievements, and back then, it usually ended up being a 30 minute waste of time with no rewards, but even if the boss was killed, the rewards were still laughable to the point that it didn't justify spending 30 minutes of playtime.

 

Some players only play things that are fun.

Some players only play things that are rewarding.

 

I would imagine the majority of players fall somewhere in the middle of that: they want to do something that is fun AND rewarding.

 

PoF metas were ignored for the longest time until ANET finally realized they needed to add a worthwhile reward. After updating them to also drop Amal gemstones, all of a sudden you saw PoF meta trains become commonplace.

 

Teq, Shatterer, Jormag, Mega, TT, Behemoth (etc), and now Drakkar, while arguably 'fun', don't reward the player commensurate to the time required to complete them.

 

So before we start talking about 'lack of difficulty' being the reason these events are ignored by a segment of the playerbase, I would rather we talk about the lack of meaningful rewards for most of these events. The Boss Blitz event was proof that even veteran players will happily go and wait for Fire Elemental or Taidha to spawn, but only when there were worthwhile rewards to be had.

 

[Dante.1763]

> @"Noobix.3958" said:

> > @"Dante.1763" said:

> > TBH TT gets killed maybe once a day by dedicated guilds to killing it. Most of the players who go to it outside of that guild do so for the achievements. They sure dont go there to listen and help the commanders who try and organize the runs.

> >

> > Even Drakkar struggles still outside of the once a day kill to be finished.

>

> I dont think the contention that the only reason players do it is for achievements and rewards is entirely true. I think alot of players enjoy the sense of challenge in and of itself. I organise a few pug runs of TT every other day or so. Im not part of a guild or anything. I just do it by myself and try to pull together a few more commanders and enough players to run the event. With effort and explanation its entirely possible to fully pug this content. But that doesnt take away from its innate challenge. Players constantly thank me and seem genuinely impressed they were part of a massive event that needed so many players. They are getting that same feeling of 'awe' that i got when I first downed the wurm. Its a special feeling in MMOs and only replicated when the content is hard and the player investment in its success is high. These players do the metas for Shatterer, Tequatl, Drakkar and the rest every day and they are just part of the DPS blob. TT is different. and Tequatl back when it was still hard was different too.

 

I dont do them anymore as i have nothing to gain from them. The rewards obtainable does not = the time spent for me to continue going to those events. Tequatl daily is worth it. Drakkar, TT are not. The chance very slim chance at an unique ascended drop isnt enough to get me to do them.

 

Give me tokens or something unique to that boss and when i can get enough i can buy the rewards, they drop and id probably do them again. I got burned out trying to obtain the TT armor. Rewards in this game especially account bound ones, being tied to RNG is a huge turn off for harder content to me. The rewards for hard content never = the effort or more importantly, time put in.

 

That sense of awe, and challenge fades quickly, and can very easily turn into toxicity and salt over time which i have seen while doing those events.

 

Turkeyspit is correct in that when they did the boss blitz it was far more rewarding to do those bosses, and it showed in how many players did them.

[Noobix.3958]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

 

> So before we start talking about 'lack of difficulty' being the reason these events are ignored by a segment of the playerbase, I would rather we talk about the lack of meaningful rewards for most of these events. The Boss Blitz event was proof that even veteran players will happily go and wait for Fire Elemental or Taidha to spawn, but only when there were worthwhile rewards to be had.

>

 

I totally agree there is a lack of _consistent_ meaningful rewards for these events. Tequatl has an entire unique weapon skin set that hardly any player ever gets to see. Even players that kill the bloody thing 100 times are not guaranteed to get anything worthwhile. The TriWurm has unique ascended armor pieces with the Regurgitated Armour set. Again, you can kill it 100 times and not ever get a Regurgitated Armour selection chest, and its technically the hardest open world event in the game!

I much prefer the style of content where you can get lucky with a good drop early, but if you repeat it enough times, you can earn tokens or something that can be traded in for one of the goodies over time. Im not saying everybody should get everything. But c'mon, the dedicated players should be rewarded for their efforts surely?

 

Anet is NOT rewarding players time.

 

I'd do the dragonfall meta more because those weapon skins are kick ass. But the chance of actually getting one is so vanishingly small id rather just not bother.

[Randulf.7614]

Drakkar was their chance to do it, but they went for the easy World Boss instead. Maybe it was right, maybe it was wrong, but I'm not sensing that adding such a boss would bring in an influx of lapsed players.

 

I've never seen Drakkar even fail yet (it obviously does happen, but not on any map I've done - and I've even been to ones in the early morning).

 

I'm not sure whether we need TT difficulty, but playable yet fail-possible mechanics for sure. Marionette did it, Gerent does it, Tequatl even does it despite it being on faceroll mode now we are so used to it.

 

Plus Anet have never understood how to reward player time, so why would people even bother?

[Ayrilana.1396]

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> Try Serpent's Ire.

 

Not anymore since players complained and complained enough that Anet caves and nerfed it. Funny though since all it required was for players to use their CC skills. I guess that was asking too much.

 

I’m sure if just as many players complained about TT, Anet would surely nerf it as well.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > Try Serpent's Ire.

>

> Not anymore since players complained and complained enough that Anet caves and nerfed it. Funny though since all it required was for players to use their CC skills. I guess that was asking too much.

>

> I’m sure if just as many players complained about TT, Anet would surely nerf it as well.

 

The current season's masteries is evidence that ANET has given up that players will ever learn what CC is. Now you don't need to worry about that for Strike Missions, just get enough of the right color crystals.

[Dante.1763]

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > Try Serpent's Ire.

>

> Not anymore since players complained and complained enough that Anet caves and nerfed it. Funny though since all it required was for players to use their CC skills. I guess that was asking too much.

>

> I’m sure if just as many players complained about TT, Anet would surely nerf it as well.

 

The issue with serpents ire was at least when i tried to do it, how badly the CC bar scaled and honestly thats always been the case when it comes to breaking that bar. They could have avoided nerfing the boss if they would have fixed the CC bar, but even then eventually i think it would have been nerfed. Lack of population requiring that meta and all that as time went on.

[Randulf.7614]

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > Try Serpent's Ire.

>

> Not anymore since players complained and complained enough that Anet caves and nerfed it. Funny though since all it required was for players to use their CC skills. I guess that was asking too much.

>

> I’m sure if just as many players complained about TT, Anet would surely nerf it as well.

 

The problem was that even when players spammed cc, it still wasn't always guaranteed to succeed. It was just an overtuned breakbar for what wasn't even the main part of the fight. Just a mid phase. If the balance had been better on that breakbar, the Zealot phase shorter and the actual boss battle better designed with approproriate rewards from the beginning, I don't think it would have been changed.

 

I think it has always been very easy to blame players for not using cc, when it's also clear the scaling hasn't been set right.

 

TT was been complained about a lot. Anet have stood firm on it. Now I think players have accepted it

[Ayrilana.1396]

> @"Dante.1763" said:

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > > Try Serpent's Ire.

> >

> > Not anymore since players complained and complained enough that Anet caves and nerfed it. Funny though since all it required was for players to use their CC skills. I guess that was asking too much.

> >

> > I’m sure if just as many players complained about TT, Anet would surely nerf it as well.

>

> The issue with serpents ire was at least when i tried to do it, how badly the CC bar scaled and honestly thats always been the case when it comes to breaking that bar. They could have avoided nerfing the boss if they would have fixed the CC bar, but even then eventually i think it would have been nerfed. Lack of population requiring that meta and all that as time went on.

 

It only took a few players to break the bar whenever I did it before the nerf. This was under the zerg strategy where you had several players at each boss and a zerg that moved from one to the next as they killed them.

[Ayrilana.1396]

> @"Jayden Reese.9542" said:

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > > Try Serpent's Ire.

> >

> > Not anymore since players complained and complained enough that Anet caves and nerfed it. Funny though since all it required was for players to use their CC skills. I guess that was asking too much.

> >

> > I’m sure if just as many players complained about TT, Anet would surely nerf it as well.

>

> It was more then that. You needed a full map and split up with like 5 dedicated players for each boss stacking all cc on their bars not just lol everyone cc what was on their bars naturally. I got it done multiple times prior the nerf but it was over the top for the majority of the player base that has difficulty breaking bars in general.

 

You didn’t need a full map. You didn’t need five for each boss. Also, due to the mechanics, you technically didn’t need every boss to be covered although players did it anyway.

[BunjiKugashira.9754]

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > Try Serpent's Ire.

>

> Not anymore since players complained and complained enough that Anet caves and nerfed it. Funny though since all it required was for players to use their CC skills. I guess that was asking too much.

>

> I’m sure if just as many players complained about TT, Anet would surely nerf it as well.

 

Imo the biggest problem with Serpent's Ire was that it is required for other content instead of being its own thing. TT can be as difficult as it is because you don't need to win that event in order to progress with any other achievement or collection. The complaints about SI really started to pick up when the event was required for the Redeeming IG-6417 Collection.

 

Difficult content should stay encapsuled as its own thing and only be required for its own specific rewards. Imagine the outcry if there was a new mount and the 3rd collection required a specific raid boss...

[ParadoX.3124]

That would be great if 75 % of players in meta event would not spam 1 without moving or thinking.

Sadly, if they make hard open world group content, we would be complaining on forum.

[Deihnyx.6318]

> @"Noobix.3958" said:

> > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

>

> > So before we start talking about 'lack of difficulty' being the reason these events are ignored by a segment of the playerbase, I would rather we talk about the lack of meaningful rewards for most of these events. The Boss Blitz event was proof that even veteran players will happily go and wait for Fire Elemental or Taidha to spawn, but only when there were worthwhile rewards to be had.

> >

>

> I totally agree there is a lack of _consistent_ meaningful rewards for these events. Tequatl has an entire unique weapon skin set that hardly any player ever gets to see. Even players that kill the bloody thing 100 times are not guaranteed to get anything worthwhile. The TriWurm has unique ascended armor pieces with the Regurgitated Armour set. Again, you can kill it 100 times and not ever get a Regurgitated Armour selection chest, and its technically the hardest open world event in the game!

> I much prefer the style of content where you can get lucky with a good drop early, but if you repeat it enough times, you can earn tokens or something that can be traded in for one of the goodies over time. Im not saying everybody should get everything. But c'mon, the dedicated players should be rewarded for their efforts surely?

>

> Anet is NOT rewarding players time.

>

> I'd do the dragonfall meta more because those weapon skins are kick kitten. But the chance of actually getting one is so vanishingly small id rather just not bother.

 

Just gonna add a +1 here. Teq/TT and similar events in general should have token to slowly work your way towards the unique stuff rather than relying purely on RNG.

These two specifically are insane. There is 0 way to buy it off TP, it's timegated to 1/day, and the RNG is ridiculously low.

 

At least for infusion, you can buy them off TP if you're forever unlucky.

 

That alone does not make me want to touch it past the achievements.

 

> @"BunjiKugashira.9754" said:

> Difficult content should stay encapsuled as its own thing and only be required for its own specific rewards. Imagine the outcry if there was a new mount and the 3rd collection required a specific raid boss...

People complained because legendary armors were for a time limited to raids... they'll complain about anything they can't or don't want to play.

And specific mount or mount skin would actually be great to be locked under certain content. It doesn't have to be 150 raid bosses, but there should be some incentive to improve at the game to get the cool stuff.

[Kulvar.1239]

The issue with open world hard content is that it's on a timer.

If people (notorious players, big guilds, ...) could organize Tri-Wurm freely and start the encounter when ready with everyone on the same map, it would work much better.

Without the timer, there would be less people trying to join existing squads, preventing some members from joining the map.

[Ayrilana.1396]

> @"BunjiKugashira.9754" said:

> Imo the biggest problem with Serpent's Ire was that it is required for other content instead of being its own thing. TT can be as difficult as it is because you don't need to win that event in order to progress with any other achievement or collection. The complaints about SI really started to pick up when the event was required for the Redeeming IG-6417 Collection.

>

 

A collection that yields an ascended back item except I never ever see anyone using that skin. It was only really an issue for completionists.

 

> @"Jayden Reese.9542" said:

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > @"Jayden Reese.9542" said:

> > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > > > > Try Serpent's Ire.

> > > >

> > > > Not anymore since players complained and complained enough that Anet caves and nerfed it. Funny though since all it required was for players to use their CC skills. I guess that was asking too much.

> > > >

> > > > I’m sure if just as many players complained about TT, Anet would surely nerf it as well.

> > >

> > > It was more then that. You needed a full map and split up with like 5 dedicated players for each boss stacking all cc on their bars not just lol everyone cc what was on their bars naturally. I got it done multiple times prior the nerf but it was over the top for the majority of the player base that has difficulty breaking bars in general.

> >

> > You didn’t need a full map. You didn’t need five for each boss. Also, due to the mechanics, you technically didn’t need every boss to be covered although players did it anyway.

>

> Ya, ok. That's why 100's of complaints about it. Never got done unless a guild was there running it . Couldn't do it w/o those 5 dedicated cc ers per boss. It was just a cc issue like dude there's what you normally do and everything is easy to you it's everyone else then there this is only a meta not a wb that was way too scaled for 50 random's to just show up with no organization and beat it

 

It got done if there was a commander there leading it and explained how to do it. A guild leading it wasn’t necessary. Also, just in case you bring them up, TTS is nothing more than a bunch of random players with the same varying skill level that you’d find by using the LFG to bring players onto a map instance.

 

You only needed a minimum of two bosses covered not including the one with the zerg providing its own CC. More is better of course in order to increase the DPS and slow the bar but it was far from a requirement.

[Cuks.8241]

I love TT and do it regularly, don't care about the rewards it is usually fun because there are many people, lot's of chatter.

And the event is always excepted really well. People often comment it's the best meta ever. Also they do listen from my experience. There are always 2 or 3 that will just not wait and try to start the burn phase or smth like that but that is 2 or 3 out of 50.

On EU a few guilds run it regularly usually weekends afternoon. The map is usually full 20 mins or more before start so be early otherwise you won't even see it in LFG.

 

Serpent Ire is just annoying. The Zealot phase is just not fun. Running around the annoying brand.

 

Drakkar I like but it is not close to TT scale and fun. And usually 2 or 3 maps fill for Drakkar in prime times EU.

 

[kharmin.7683]

> @"Deihnyx.6318" said:

> but there should be some incentive to improve at the game to get the cool stuff.

Why?

 

How does it impact you if players decide to simply play and not focus on continual improvement? And who is to decide what "cool stuff" is gated behind these incentives when it is completely subjective?

 

[Randulf.7614]

> @"BunjiKugashira.9754" said:

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > > Try Serpent's Ire.

> >

> > Not anymore since players complained and complained enough that Anet caves and nerfed it. Funny though since all it required was for players to use their CC skills. I guess that was asking too much.

> >

> > I’m sure if just as many players complained about TT, Anet would surely nerf it as well.

>

> Imo the biggest problem with Serpent's Ire was that it is required for other content instead of being its own thing. TT can be as difficult as it is because you don't need to win that event in order to progress with any other achievement or collection. The complaints about SI really started to pick up when the event was required for the Redeeming IG-6417 Collection.

>

> Difficult content should stay encapsuled as its own thing and only be required for its own specific rewards. Imagine the outcry if there was a new mount and the 3rd collection required a specific raid boss...

 

It started as its own thing and was completely ignored by players. They added more and more collections to it in order to herd players to the event. So difficult for the sake of difficult already failed as a concept here

[Noobix.3958]

> @"BunjiKugashira.9754" said:

>

> Difficult content should stay encapsuled as its own thing and only be required for its own specific rewards. Imagine the outcry if there was a new mount and the 3rd collection required a specific raid boss...

 

Totally agree with this. If you start tagging requirements for other pieces of content onto a hard and occasionally completed world boss, you are going to piss off alot of players. If im going for a collection and just systematically working through it, then all of a sudden need to find a way to get a full TT kill, im gonna be annoyed.

 

The open world hard content should be totally self-sufficient and have no other dependencies on it whtether thats being tagged into other collections or story progression. It should have its own reward structure with a tokenised reward system. i.e RNG lets you get things early but with time you can get what you want with dedication.

 

[Deihnyx.6318]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > @"Deihnyx.6318" said:

> > but there should be some incentive to improve at the game to get the cool stuff.

> Why?

>

> How does it impact you if players decide to simply play and not focus on continual improvement? And who is to decide what "cool stuff" is gated behind these incentives when it is completely subjective?

>

 

It impacts everything.

 

It would be fine if these players would understand that they're limiting themselves and leave it at that, but it's not what happens. There is no "simply play and not focus on continual improvement" without impacting others. Because these people don't want to put in the effort to learn after 2 expansions and 4 living seasons, everyone gets to play a dumbed-down version of the content. That's pretty much the definition of impacting others.

 

Cool stuff is only cool so long as it's relevant. It won't be relevant for long unless it requires somewhat of an effort to obtain:

- Through Content

- Through Grinding

- Through RNG / Timegate

 

RNG / Timegate being the worst of all, it leaves grinding and content.

Well, when you ask how does it impact me when people decide to simply play and not focus on continual improvement, the ultimate consequence is that to counter the effect of content being simple enough for everyone to do it, they have to add ridiculous amount of grinding.

 

Also TT is not raid difficulty. Not even close. It however requires an organized group. And this type of content should be alive and well in an MMO. GW1 has heroes / mercenaries and is pretty amazing if that's more your thing.

 

Late Edit: Not saying that there shouldn't be "simple content" for those who want it. However, it should not just be about them. There's no challenge motes in story anymore, fractals aren't coming, and raids are pretty much depreciated in favor of mission strikes. And when a meta is seemingly too complicated (aka can't finish consistently within the first 2 days) it gets nerfed.

I'm all for letting players play the way they want but there needs to be a balance and there currently isn't.