i think D/D thief needs a buff.

[Roche.7491]

I think D/D is not good compared to other thief type.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

with assassins signet, what else do you need? in wvw atleast with 25 bloolust and assassins signet popped, most steal/CnD/Back stab will kill most builds

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> with assassins signet, what else do you need? in wvw atleast with 25 bloolust and assassins signet popped, most steal/CnD/Back stab will kill most builds

 

Assassins Signet got nerfed a while back. And no, even with that, it will kill almost no build. Against a light class no toughness build that should do somewhere around 13k hp, *tops*. Most classes have more *base* hp than that, and people run vitality and max hp increases.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > with assassins signet, what else do you need? in wvw atleast with 25 bloolust and assassins signet popped, most steal/CnD/Back stab will kill most builds

>

> Assassins Signet got nerfed a while back. And no, even with that, it will kill almost no build. Against a light class no toughness build that should do somewhere around 13k hp, *tops*. Most classes have more *base* hp than that, and people run vitality and max hp increases.

 

Vs other glass builds, my cnd can crit 5k alone as s/d and that's with out assassins signet, so that 13k total is pretty low for a full yolo build. Does it not still grant 540 extra power when active ? Not sure where the nerf is here unless you're on about recharge time that's that shouldn't matter.

 

Back stab on the other hand did get a nerf so yeah may be it dosnt hit as hard as it use to.

[lare.5129]

> @"Roche.7491" said:

> D/D is weak compared to S/P, S/D, D/P, D/P, P/P, Rifle and Staff.

> It’s the weakest. It’s dual wield attack is slow and weak.

so ? why you think that this is not ok ? I am sure that some weapons should be weakest on any class. And currently it is. So after that you can increase mastery and play with weakest weans, ofc if you like it.

Not like? change weapon.

 

[krz.1327]

It really does need a buff, dagger is THE thief weapon but if you want to be on par with others you need to use sword, staff, pistols or a rifle, basically anything but a dagger.

[lare.5129]

> @"krz.1327" said:

> It really does need a buff, dagger is THE thief weapon

and main target of thief - be easy meat for normal classes, because it is more skillable scale class.

So anyway we should ask nearf any weapon on thief one more time. Ad nerf dagger twice.

 

two hits - thief die .. and thief should 10-15 seconds dps to downstate afk warrior. This is ideal balance as for my vision. And we still only in start of this road.

Only keep in this way we can keep some challenges for skilled people.

[anduriell.6280]

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > > with assassins signet, what else do you need? in wvw atleast with 25 bloolust and assassins signet popped, most steal/CnD/Back stab will kill most builds

> >

> > Assassins Signet got nerfed a while back. And no, even with that, it will kill almost no build. Against a light class no toughness build that should do somewhere around 13k hp, *tops*. Most classes have more *base* hp than that, and people run vitality and max hp increases.

>

> Vs other glass builds, my cnd can crit 5k alone as s/d and that's with out assassins signet, so that 13k total is pretty low for a full yolo build. Does it not still grant 540 extra power when active ? Not sure where the nerf is here unless you're on about recharge time that's that shouldn't matter.

>

> Back stab on the other hand did get a nerf so yeah may be it dosnt hit as hard as it use to.

 

Nah all damage got nerfed in the last balance patch. Core thief is fine, backstab does what is supposed to do.

Deadeye on the other hand needs the hammer nerf in those malice stacks thou.

 

If you want more damage use DeadEye and you will land 20K backstabs on paper targets easy.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > > with assassins signet, what else do you need? in wvw atleast with 25 bloolust and assassins signet popped, most steal/CnD/Back stab will kill most builds

> >

> > Assassins Signet got nerfed a while back. And no, even with that, it will kill almost no build. Against a light class no toughness build that should do somewhere around 13k hp, *tops*. Most classes have more *base* hp than that, and people run vitality and max hp increases.

>

> Vs other glass builds, my cnd can crit 5k alone as s/d and that's with out assassins signet, so that 13k total is pretty low for a full yolo build. Does it not still grant 540 extra power when active ? Not sure where the nerf is here unless you're on about recharge time that's that shouldn't matter.

>

 

It was bugged and gave a 15% damage increase *as well as* 540 power. They fixed that bug, nerfing your damage by 15% after the big damage patch nerfed the whole thing. And yeah, with 5k CnD your backstab does 7k ish and Steal does 1k. Thats 13k.

 

> Back stab on the other hand did get a nerf so yeah may be it dosnt hit as hard as it use to.

 

Everything doesnt hit as hard as it used to.

[Yasai.3549]

OH Dagger isn't weak, it's just doesn't have a gap closer baked into it.

 

 

 

 

[Roche.7491]

> @"lare.5129" said:

> > @"Roche.7491" said:

> > D/D is weak compared to S/P, S/D, D/P, D/P, P/P, Rifle and Staff.

> > It’s the weakest. It’s dual wield attack is slow and weak.

> so ? why you think that this is not ok ? I am sure that some weapons should be weakest on any class. And currently it is. So after that you can increase mastery and play with weakest weans, ofc if you like it.

> Not like? change weapon.

>

 

I think D/P outweighs D/D in terms of flexibility, utility and damage.

[lare.5129]

> @"Roche.7491" said:

> Let’s compare D/P vs D/D.

why we should them compare ? this is different weapons, different skills, different bonuses. Everyone have possibility chose that that want. Not like - no use. But make different weapons is same value very strange vision.

 

>In all sense D/P outweighs D/D in terms of flexibility, utility and damage.

so use it. Or anet block weapons slot ??

 

 

[Roche.7491]

> @"lare.5129" said:

> > @"Roche.7491" said:

> > Let’s compare D/P vs D/D.

> why we should them compare ? this is different weapons, different skills, different bonuses. Everyone have possibility chose that that want. Not like - no use. But make different weapons is same value very strange vision.

>

> >In all sense D/P outweighs D/D in terms of flexibility, utility and damage.

> so use it. Or anet block weapons slot ??

>

>

 

I hope DD to be in par with the rest

[lare.5129]

> @"Roche.7491" said:

> I just like DD to be on par with the rest in pvp

so use it. Yes, you get more % fail. And it is very very Ok for others normal players who chose more powerful weapons for pvp..

This is only you choose to increase % of lose. There is no any point try find some magic balance between all weapons.

 

[myboybuzzy.5809]

D/D really isnt bad, it just takes more skill that d/p. You get punished a lot harder for bad positioning and actually have to be able to use short bow. Shortbow is more than just infiltrators arrow...

 

If you want a build this is what I run in wvw. http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAgiVlNw6YisNGJOMPqrVA-zRZYBRBbLyAxgLlmChwSg2KgMjA1mGKcGB-e you can run the same thing in pvp just take berserker ammy and thief rune

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"lare.5129" said:

> > @"Roche.7491" said:

> > I just like DD to be on par with the rest in pvp

> so use it. Yes, you get more % fail. And it is very very Ok for others normal players who chose more powerful weapons for pvp..

> This is only you choose to increase % of lose. There is no any point try find some magic balance between all weapons.

>

 

Using a subpar weaponset doesnt make it any less subpar. It just means youre handicapping yourself by making it more likely that you lose. D/D should get some pvp buff.

[lare.5129]

Don't understand yours logic ..

the item is not good for me. Don't use this item. If you like use is - use, but this is only your choose options.

 

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> . D/D should get some pvp buff.

we should ask NERF more d/d ! Why ? to make more understandable thing, that each balance changes can bring new meta weapons, and make more uslesss some others..

 

 

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > > with assassins signet, what else do you need? in wvw atleast with 25 bloolust and assassins signet popped, most steal/CnD/Back stab will kill most builds

> >

> > Assassins Signet got nerfed a while back. And no, even with that, it will kill almost no build. Against a light class no toughness build that should do somewhere around 13k hp, *tops*. Most classes have more *base* hp than that, and people run vitality and max hp increases.

>

> Vs other glass builds, my cnd can crit 5k alone as s/d and that's with out assassins signet, so that 13k total is pretty low for a full yolo build. Does it not still grant 540 extra power when active ? Not sure where the nerf is here unless you're on about recharge time that's that shouldn't matter.

>

> Back stab on the other hand did get a nerf so yeah may be it dosnt hit as hard as it use to.

 

It's pretty bad. When they changed AS they left the 15% damage modifier on it despite intending to have removed it and it went undetected for years. They somewhat-recently removed the modifier as a bugfix. The static 540 power is like... 1-2k damage on CnD+Backstab in total. Even I, a signet loyalist over the years, have dropped the skill because it's just downright bad. Total combos hover around 13k on average, which a quick player on a marauder build will survive on, on every class.

 

The kit is particularly bad right now because it's a condi sustain meta, too. Everything about the kit does even worse than it traditionally has into these builds, since it needs to spec into extra mobility in utils since its mobility was designed around the 2012-era when HS was considered a mobility skill and no professions except thief had movespeed signets or permanent swiftness, CS in-combat initiative recovery was removed years ago to keep the thief's resources up, DB got its initiative cost upped in the "major balance" patch, and the thief as a whole is seemingly being balanced these days around OOC stealth and evasion from all other sources except DB. D/D has always had resource and sustain issues, solved mostly through just playing way better, and struggles more into some of the more dominant turtling strategies like repeated blinding and block/hit-negation uptime available in most of the stronger classes today.

 

It's playable, but barely. S/D does more damage per initiative with way more advantages, D/P does the assassination job better, and rifle DE is just D/D in terms of capabilities and matchup strengths, but is just safer and with superior mobility.

 

Death blossom needs a fundamental rework (as I have proposed numerous times over the years), and spammable condi power (which is basically all of the kit's condi power) needs to be decoupled from its only defensive skill, in order to make said skill cheaper. The hybrid kit thing just doesn't work, and is why ANet made huge buffs to warrior's mainhand sword power coefs a little while ago. It's inconsequential if the kit doesn't have synergy, which is what D/D lacks everywhere.

 

I see D/D thieves mostly as free bags. I've actually fought and killed a couple on my reaper without ever even getting hit, and on mine, engages that used to be pretty safe no longer feel so, and the damage threat is just never there. I'd say 3/5 fights I never even swap from S/D, just because there's never a point where the tiny boost in damage at the huge risk of CnD+Stab is worth it, because in most cases, the enemy is going to be able to just eat the backstab's damage, even at 4k power and 230 crit damage with ASignet (which is why I dropped it since the bugfix).

[Roche.7491]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > > > with assassins signet, what else do you need? in wvw atleast with 25 bloolust and assassins signet popped, most steal/CnD/Back stab will kill most builds

> > >

> > > Assassins Signet got nerfed a while back. And no, even with that, it will kill almost no build. Against a light class no toughness build that should do somewhere around 13k hp, *tops*. Most classes have more *base* hp than that, and people run vitality and max hp increases.

> >

> > Vs other glass builds, my cnd can crit 5k alone as s/d and that's with out assassins signet, so that 13k total is pretty low for a full yolo build. Does it not still grant 540 extra power when active ? Not sure where the nerf is here unless you're on about recharge time that's that shouldn't matter.

> >

> > Back stab on the other hand did get a nerf so yeah may be it dosnt hit as hard as it use to.

>

> It's pretty bad. When they changed AS they left the 15% damage modifier on it despite intending to have removed it and it went undetected for years. They somewhat-recently removed the modifier as a bugfix. The static 540 power is like... 1-2k damage on CnD+Backstab in total. Even I, a signet loyalist over the years, have dropped the skill because it's just downright bad. Total combos hover around 13k on average, which a quick player on a marauder build will survive on, on every class.

>

> The kit is particularly bad right now because it's a condi sustain meta, too. Everything about the kit does even worse than it traditionally has into these builds, since it needs to spec into extra mobility in utils since its mobility was designed around the 2012-era when HS was considered a mobility skill and no professions except thief had movespeed signets or permanent swiftness, CS in-combat initiative recovery was removed years ago to keep the thief's resources up, DB got its initiative cost upped in the "major balance" patch, and the thief as a whole is seemingly being balanced these days around OOC stealth and evasion from all other sources except DB. D/D has always had resource and sustain issues, solved mostly through just playing way better, and struggles more into some of the more dominant turtling strategies like repeated blinding and block/hit-negation uptime available in most of the stronger classes today.

>

> It's playable, but barely. S/D does more damage per initiative with way more advantages, D/P does the assassination job better, and rifle DE is just D/D in terms of capabilities and matchup strengths, but is just safer and with superior mobility.

>

> Death blossom needs a fundamental rework (as I have proposed numerous times over the years), and spammable condi power (which is basically all of the kit's condi power) needs to be decoupled from its only defensive skill, in order to make said skill cheaper. The hybrid kit thing just doesn't work, and is why ANet made huge buffs to warrior's mainhand sword power coefs a little while ago. It's inconsequential if the kit doesn't have synergy, which is what D/D lacks everywhere.

>

> I see D/D thieves mostly as free bags. I've actually fought and killed a couple on my reaper without ever even getting hit, and on mine, engages that used to be pretty safe no longer feel so, and the damage threat is just never there. I'd say 3/5 fights I never even swap from S/D, just because there's never a point where the tiny boost in damage at the huge risk of CnD+Stab is worth it, because in most cases, the enemy is going to be able to just eat the backstab's damage, even at 4k power and 230 crit damage with ASignet (which is why I dropped it since the bugfix).

 

Most helpful post so far.

 

Seems like I'll stay away from D/D until they fix it.

[Pomdepin.7068]

D/D problem to me is that its #3 has absolutely 0 synergy with the rest of the kit. D/D is meant to be played with power stats. #3 leans towards condi. On top of that, D/D kit has 0 gapcloser and smallest range of all thief weapons.

 

It competes with S/D and D/P for the power spot, but it lacks the mobility the two have. At least D/P can go invisible anywhere with 5+2. D/D needs to get close. It just doesn't work imo and #3 needs a complete rework.

[Yasai.3549]

> @"Pomdepin.7068" said:

> D/D problem to me is that its #3 has absolutely 0 synergy with the rest of the kit. D/D is meant to be played with power stats. #3 leans towards condi. On top of that, D/D kit has 0 gapcloser and smallest range of all thief weapons.

 

Nay.

D/D is obviously meant for a Hybrid styled build which pushes both Condi and Power.

 

This was why old Dagger Mastery made all Dagger attacks, no matter which skill, have a chance to apply Poison as well as give +Power for each Dagger wielded.

 

It makes alot of sense for it to be a Hybrid sort of weapon too, since Dagger auto chain and Dagger 4 already applied pretty darn good Conditions, and Dagger autos were really really good with old Dagger Mastery even on a pure Condi build.

 

I actually played a version of this, with Grieving - Marauder stats in WvW.

Was a Hybrid D/D Daredevil which just Swipes in with Backstab and auto a dude a whole bunch then back off while spamming Dagger 4 and watch people kill themselves from Torment + Poison.

 

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

Honestly the two things I can think of to fix Daggger Dagger is...

 

 

Change the offhand Cloak and Dagger Skill a bit. As it stands, its an expensive skill for no reason. Its slow and easily dodged. Adjust it so the skill features a straight dashing slash. The skill should be near instant in activation but requires the thief to travel a small distance before the slash is triggered. Can cleave through three targets. Gain's boons depending on condi present. Bleed for might, Slow grants Super Speed, Weakness grants Agis, etc.vSame combo finisher as Warriors Great Sword's whirl ability. Activation behaves like Heart Seeker, where it can be used without requiring a target, but homes onto the selected target.

 

Since the D/D has very little safety and utility, it will probably be rewarded for condi, and using Venoms.

 

For Death Blossom, i'm not sure. My thought is apply confusion if all hits land. Because if a player is stupid enough to get hit by all hits, then GG.

[Vecuu.2018]

There are some builds for WvW/PvP that run double daggers as condi-evasion-tanks.

 

They can be pretty troll, but I enjoy it. :)

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Yasai.3549" said:

> > @"Pomdepin.7068" said:

> > D/D problem to me is that its #3 has absolutely 0 synergy with the rest of the kit. D/D is meant to be played with power stats. #3 leans towards condi. On top of that, D/D kit has 0 gapcloser and smallest range of all thief weapons.

>

> Nay.

> D/D is obviously meant for a Hybrid styled build which pushes both Condi and Power.

>

 

Its not, actually. Back then, conditions just werent a main thing, but just something builds happened to have on the side. A lot of skills across many weapons had random conditions on them. Most got changed, D/D didnt.

 

> This was why old Dagger Mastery made all Dagger attacks, no matter which skill, have a chance to apply Poison as well as give +Power for each Dagger wielded.

>

 

The very first version of it just increased dagger damage. The poison on attack thing was added in 2015 while taking away the previous functionality, before swapping once more in 2019.

 

> It makes alot of sense for it to be a Hybrid sort of weapon too, since Dagger auto chain and Dagger 4 already applied pretty darn good Conditions, and Dagger autos were really really good with old Dagger Mastery even on a pure Condi build.

>

 

It absolutely doesnt, at all. Dagger 4 only got torment in *2017*, and the torment it applies is pathetic. Likewise, the autoattack poison is far too little to matter. There is no reason for the build to be a hybrid build. It had *some* justification when dagger training applies poison, but it doesnt anymore.

 

> I actually played a version of this, with Grieving - Marauder stats in WvW.

> Was a Hybrid D/D Daredevil which just Swipes in with Backstab and auto a dude a whole bunch then back off while spamming Dagger 4 and watch people kill themselves from Torment + Poison.

>

 

Yeah if your enemies somehow died to that they mustve been particularly bad. Because that sounds terrible.

[Yasai.3549]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> snip

 

I mean yu could argue the same thing for literally every single sort of change over the years.

Just because the original Dagger Training 8 years ago increased its damage, doesn't mean it was always meant to be Power focused.

 

After the change to make Dagger attacks apply poison in 2015, it kept the same main effect for over 4 years before finally being changed last year to no longer apply Poison on hit.

 

I'll say that there might have been plans to make Dagger a hybrid weapon because for the longest time, this trait existed in this particular format, while adding or changing up benefits to Power damage alongside.

 

And to be fair, Viper/Grieving DD builds did work (for PvE) during this span of time where Dagger Training applied Poison, so yu can't exactly deny that Dagger wasn't used somewhat as a Hybrid weapon.