Leonidrex.5649 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"saerni.2584" the problem with cthief is that they apply 10k+ damage instantly from stealth, with no tell. the moment you can defend yourself they will barrage you with more power/bleed/poison or just cover the big poison. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do have to admit I find your ability to swap between 2 contradicting positions ("condi is fine even though it does ridiculous damage instantly with no tell, but not if thief is using it because its thief") without even so much as stumbling rather impressive, but please do stick to one of them. Either condi is a problem, or it, including condi thief, is not. All condi builds operate the same way, after all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > quote me > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You were defending condi the entire first half of this thread, and now youre suddenly against it so long as thief is using it. Are you denying either half? I mean not that it helps you much, its at this point become clear that you think anything thief does is a problem, but only if *thief* does it, and its fine if any other class does it. Just irrational thief hatred taken to an extreme degree. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > quote me > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "the problem with cthief is that they apply 10k+ damage instantly from stealth, with no tell." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "ofc power will seem "weaker" because you cant make the booboo go away after you it it, if holo cornoa+holo 4 you for 8k total its 8k you are not getting back, its not like burning that you can cleanse like it never happened". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or if we take things from other threads, how about "I have 1 condi cleanse every 30s and im doing guchi". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh or my personal favourite, "condi builds cant do that other then some niche or specific cases like burn buard or mass confusion from condi mesmer into you hurting yourself with confusion.". Yeah apparently when Mesmer kills you with confusion its you hurting yourself. When thief does it, its thieves fault. Cognitive dissonance as a result of irrational anti-thief bias. Nothing more. > > > > > > > > > > > > as usual you fail to read and comprehend what is written, case closed. > > > > > > > > > > Translation: "I have no answer and would rather keep my cognitive dissonance, so I will try and deflect". So let me ask this. Why is Mesmers confusion burst fine, but Thieves isnt? Mesmers isnt any avoidable after all. In your eyes its fine because it only does damage if the opponent spams like an idiot, but the same is true for thief, yet you have a problem with thief (remember that video where the guy died to theif steal burst, but only because he lost 9k hp from using abilities through confusion?). The simple truth is that the same thing you just ardently defended becomes a problem, just because thief used it. All because you have an irrational bias against thief. > > > > > > > > thief deals over 10k dmg WITHOUT confusion, the moment F2 shatter lands 10k+ dmg AND confusion we can have this talk > > > > > > Ah yes, how could I forget. The 10k steal "burst" that ticks over *15 seconds*. That was a joke before, and it still is a joke. But dont tell me you forgot "Maim the Disillusioned". Oh and the Prestige, of course. Probably could slap on some phantasmal axes as well. > > > > maim deals under 400dmg/clone assuming you move through entire duration, 3clone F2 in melee range would deal 1600 dmg with the torment. > > 500 damage, times 3. Well, 560 if youre running Signet of Midnight, and more if you run the Torment Duration sigil, but I see the former rarely the latter never. So 2000 with 3 clones, but I think you usually use 2 clones, so 3 times. > > > If we add in torch 4+torch 5+jaunt + 3clones F2 in melee, we will get ~12k dmg +8confusion. > > Id add Axe 2 + Axe Ambush + seeking axes over Torch 5. Since you do use the former to get the clones most of the time anyway. 2 clones because 1 from Axe 2 + 1 from Self-deception. Lets slap on a Sigil of Midnight, too. Thats, lets see. 3664+1221 off of The Prestige, 2242 off of Axe 2, 747 off of ambush, 1492 off of the 2 phantasmal seeking axes spawned, 1680 off of maim the disillusioned. Plus some amount of power damage Im going to ignore because I cant be bothered. Total of 11046. More if you get compounding power stacks but again, I cannot be bothered with this. > > > its almost the same!, exept 1 melee range, 2 you have to generate clones, 3 torch 4 has 3s delay > > meanwhile thief presses 3+f1 from 1200 range and applies this much instantly, be it stealth or not. That is not counting even venoms. > > Interestingly you forgot to mention the far more important difference. The thief "burst" ticks over *15 seconds*. I dont think I can stress enough how absurdly long of a time **15 seconds** are. This ticks in total over 10 seconds, but most of its damage happens in 3.5 seconds. Even if you take away the burning past that, youre just missing about 2k damage, which puts it at 9k, just slightly under thieves 10k. Without having to wait 15 seconds like the thief. This is actual burst. The thief "burst" is a joke. now you are comparing melee range, over 1s cast time combo to 1200 range instacast and still come in lacking xd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"saerni.2584" the problem with cthief is that they apply 10k+ damage instantly from stealth, with no tell. the moment you can defend yourself they will barrage you with more power/bleed/poison or just cover the big poison. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do have to admit I find your ability to swap between 2 contradicting positions ("condi is fine even though it does ridiculous damage instantly with no tell, but not if thief is using it because its thief") without even so much as stumbling rather impressive, but please do stick to one of them. Either condi is a problem, or it, including condi thief, is not. All condi builds operate the same way, after all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > quote me > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You were defending condi the entire first half of this thread, and now youre suddenly against it so long as thief is using it. Are you denying either half? I mean not that it helps you much, its at this point become clear that you think anything thief does is a problem, but only if *thief* does it, and its fine if any other class does it. Just irrational thief hatred taken to an extreme degree. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > quote me > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "the problem with cthief is that they apply 10k+ damage instantly from stealth, with no tell." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "ofc power will seem "weaker" because you cant make the booboo go away after you it it, if holo cornoa+holo 4 you for 8k total its 8k you are not getting back, its not like burning that you can cleanse like it never happened". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or if we take things from other threads, how about "I have 1 condi cleanse every 30s and im doing guchi". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh or my personal favourite, "condi builds cant do that other then some niche or specific cases like burn buard or mass confusion from condi mesmer into you hurting yourself with confusion.". Yeah apparently when Mesmer kills you with confusion its you hurting yourself. When thief does it, its thieves fault. Cognitive dissonance as a result of irrational anti-thief bias. Nothing more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as usual you fail to read and comprehend what is written, case closed. > > > > > > > > > > > > Translation: "I have no answer and would rather keep my cognitive dissonance, so I will try and deflect". So let me ask this. Why is Mesmers confusion burst fine, but Thieves isnt? Mesmers isnt any avoidable after all. In your eyes its fine because it only does damage if the opponent spams like an idiot, but the same is true for thief, yet you have a problem with thief (remember that video where the guy died to theif steal burst, but only because he lost 9k hp from using abilities through confusion?). The simple truth is that the same thing you just ardently defended becomes a problem, just because thief used it. All because you have an irrational bias against thief. > > > > > > > > > > thief deals over 10k dmg WITHOUT confusion, the moment F2 shatter lands 10k+ dmg AND confusion we can have this talk > > > > > > > > Ah yes, how could I forget. The 10k steal "burst" that ticks over *15 seconds*. That was a joke before, and it still is a joke. But dont tell me you forgot "Maim the Disillusioned". Oh and the Prestige, of course. Probably could slap on some phantasmal axes as well. > > > > > > maim deals under 400dmg/clone assuming you move through entire duration, 3clone F2 in melee range would deal 1600 dmg with the torment. > > > > 500 damage, times 3. Well, 560 if youre running Signet of Midnight, and more if you run the Torment Duration sigil, but I see the former rarely the latter never. So 2000 with 3 clones, but I think you usually use 2 clones, so 3 times. > > > > > If we add in torch 4+torch 5+jaunt + 3clones F2 in melee, we will get ~12k dmg +8confusion. > > > > Id add Axe 2 + Axe Ambush + seeking axes over Torch 5. Since you do use the former to get the clones most of the time anyway. 2 clones because 1 from Axe 2 + 1 from Self-deception. Lets slap on a Sigil of Midnight, too. Thats, lets see. 3664+1221 off of The Prestige, 2242 off of Axe 2, 747 off of ambush, 1492 off of the 2 phantasmal seeking axes spawned, 1680 off of maim the disillusioned. Plus some amount of power damage Im going to ignore because I cant be bothered. Total of 11046. More if you get compounding power stacks but again, I cannot be bothered with this. > > > > > its almost the same!, exept 1 melee range, 2 you have to generate clones, 3 torch 4 has 3s delay > > > meanwhile thief presses 3+f1 from 1200 range and applies this much instantly, be it stealth or not. That is not counting even venoms. > > > > Interestingly you forgot to mention the far more important difference. The thief "burst" ticks over *15 seconds*. I dont think I can stress enough how absurdly long of a time **15 seconds** are. This ticks in total over 10 seconds, but most of its damage happens in 3.5 seconds. Even if you take away the burning past that, youre just missing about 2k damage, which puts it at 9k, just slightly under thieves 10k. Without having to wait 15 seconds like the thief. This is actual burst. The thief "burst" is a joke. > > now you are comparing melee range, over 1s cast time combo to 1200 range instacast and still come in lacking xd I come out ahead (11k>10k). But let me remind you again, _**15 SECONDS**_. Seriously how do you type that "burst" out and not break down in laughter at how stupid what youre typing is? With that "burst", I could stand up, go to the kitchen, pour myself a cup of tea, come back, and it *still* wouldnt have finished the "burst". Hell at that point Im pretty sure a Warrior could just go AFK and not lose even a fifth of his healthbar in total. So yeah, that "burst" is a joke. If we restrict it to a more reasonable timeframe for "burst", like lets say, the 3.5 seconds I chose here, remind me again, how much damage does that "burst" do? 3k? 4k? Something as pathetic as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"saerni.2584" the problem with cthief is that they apply 10k+ damage instantly from stealth, with no tell. the moment you can defend yourself they will barrage you with more power/bleed/poison or just cover the big poison. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do have to admit I find your ability to swap between 2 contradicting positions ("condi is fine even though it does ridiculous damage instantly with no tell, but not if thief is using it because its thief") without even so much as stumbling rather impressive, but please do stick to one of them. Either condi is a problem, or it, including condi thief, is not. All condi builds operate the same way, after all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > quote me > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You were defending condi the entire first half of this thread, and now youre suddenly against it so long as thief is using it. Are you denying either half? I mean not that it helps you much, its at this point become clear that you think anything thief does is a problem, but only if *thief* does it, and its fine if any other class does it. Just irrational thief hatred taken to an extreme degree. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > quote me > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "the problem with cthief is that they apply 10k+ damage instantly from stealth, with no tell." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "ofc power will seem "weaker" because you cant make the booboo go away after you it it, if holo cornoa+holo 4 you for 8k total its 8k you are not getting back, its not like burning that you can cleanse like it never happened". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or if we take things from other threads, how about "I have 1 condi cleanse every 30s and im doing guchi". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh or my personal favourite, "condi builds cant do that other then some niche or specific cases like burn buard or mass confusion from condi mesmer into you hurting yourself with confusion.". Yeah apparently when Mesmer kills you with confusion its you hurting yourself. When thief does it, its thieves fault. Cognitive dissonance as a result of irrational anti-thief bias. Nothing more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as usual you fail to read and comprehend what is written, case closed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Translation: "I have no answer and would rather keep my cognitive dissonance, so I will try and deflect". So let me ask this. Why is Mesmers confusion burst fine, but Thieves isnt? Mesmers isnt any avoidable after all. In your eyes its fine because it only does damage if the opponent spams like an idiot, but the same is true for thief, yet you have a problem with thief (remember that video where the guy died to theif steal burst, but only because he lost 9k hp from using abilities through confusion?). The simple truth is that the same thing you just ardently defended becomes a problem, just because thief used it. All because you have an irrational bias against thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > thief deals over 10k dmg WITHOUT confusion, the moment F2 shatter lands 10k+ dmg AND confusion we can have this talk > > > > > > > > > > Ah yes, how could I forget. The 10k steal "burst" that ticks over *15 seconds*. That was a joke before, and it still is a joke. But dont tell me you forgot "Maim the Disillusioned". Oh and the Prestige, of course. Probably could slap on some phantasmal axes as well. > > > > > > > > maim deals under 400dmg/clone assuming you move through entire duration, 3clone F2 in melee range would deal 1600 dmg with the torment. > > > > > > 500 damage, times 3. Well, 560 if youre running Signet of Midnight, and more if you run the Torment Duration sigil, but I see the former rarely the latter never. So 2000 with 3 clones, but I think you usually use 2 clones, so 3 times. > > > > > > > If we add in torch 4+torch 5+jaunt + 3clones F2 in melee, we will get ~12k dmg +8confusion. > > > > > > Id add Axe 2 + Axe Ambush + seeking axes over Torch 5. Since you do use the former to get the clones most of the time anyway. 2 clones because 1 from Axe 2 + 1 from Self-deception. Lets slap on a Sigil of Midnight, too. Thats, lets see. 3664+1221 off of The Prestige, 2242 off of Axe 2, 747 off of ambush, 1492 off of the 2 phantasmal seeking axes spawned, 1680 off of maim the disillusioned. Plus some amount of power damage Im going to ignore because I cant be bothered. Total of 11046. More if you get compounding power stacks but again, I cannot be bothered with this. > > > > > > > its almost the same!, exept 1 melee range, 2 you have to generate clones, 3 torch 4 has 3s delay > > > > meanwhile thief presses 3+f1 from 1200 range and applies this much instantly, be it stealth or not. That is not counting even venoms. > > > > > > Interestingly you forgot to mention the far more important difference. The thief "burst" ticks over *15 seconds*. I dont think I can stress enough how absurdly long of a time **15 seconds** are. This ticks in total over 10 seconds, but most of its damage happens in 3.5 seconds. Even if you take away the burning past that, youre just missing about 2k damage, which puts it at 9k, just slightly under thieves 10k. Without having to wait 15 seconds like the thief. This is actual burst. The thief "burst" is a joke. > > > > now you are comparing melee range, over 1s cast time combo to 1200 range instacast and still come in lacking xd > > I come out ahead (11k>10k). But let me remind you again, _**15 SECONDS**_. Seriously how do you type that "burst" out and not break down in laughter at how stupid what youre typing is? With that "burst", I could stand up, go to the kitchen, pour myself a cup of tea, come back, and it *still* wouldnt have finished the "burst". Hell at that point Im pretty sure a Warrior could just go AFK and not lose even a fifth of his healthbar in total. So yeah, that "burst" is a joke. If we restrict it to a more reasonable timeframe for "burst", like lets say, the 3.5 seconds I chose here, remind me again, how much damage does that "burst" do? 3k? 4k? Something as pathetic as that. I stated 10k LIGHTLY, its over 10k without using venoms to begin with, and without channeling repeater. doing your over 1,5s+ cast times we might as well count in repeater 2k+ bleed, 1k+ power damage, additional 6 venom power procs for 2k, and 4,2k+ poison for 20k+ damage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"saerni.2584" the problem with cthief is that they apply 10k+ damage instantly from stealth, with no tell. the moment you can defend yourself they will barrage you with more power/bleed/poison or just cover the big poison. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do have to admit I find your ability to swap between 2 contradicting positions ("condi is fine even though it does ridiculous damage instantly with no tell, but not if thief is using it because its thief") without even so much as stumbling rather impressive, but please do stick to one of them. Either condi is a problem, or it, including condi thief, is not. All condi builds operate the same way, after all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > quote me > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You were defending condi the entire first half of this thread, and now youre suddenly against it so long as thief is using it. Are you denying either half? I mean not that it helps you much, its at this point become clear that you think anything thief does is a problem, but only if *thief* does it, and its fine if any other class does it. Just irrational thief hatred taken to an extreme degree. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > quote me > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "the problem with cthief is that they apply 10k+ damage instantly from stealth, with no tell." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "ofc power will seem "weaker" because you cant make the booboo go away after you it it, if holo cornoa+holo 4 you for 8k total its 8k you are not getting back, its not like burning that you can cleanse like it never happened". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or if we take things from other threads, how about "I have 1 condi cleanse every 30s and im doing guchi". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh or my personal favourite, "condi builds cant do that other then some niche or specific cases like burn buard or mass confusion from condi mesmer into you hurting yourself with confusion.". Yeah apparently when Mesmer kills you with confusion its you hurting yourself. When thief does it, its thieves fault. Cognitive dissonance as a result of irrational anti-thief bias. Nothing more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as usual you fail to read and comprehend what is written, case closed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Translation: "I have no answer and would rather keep my cognitive dissonance, so I will try and deflect". So let me ask this. Why is Mesmers confusion burst fine, but Thieves isnt? Mesmers isnt any avoidable after all. In your eyes its fine because it only does damage if the opponent spams like an idiot, but the same is true for thief, yet you have a problem with thief (remember that video where the guy died to theif steal burst, but only because he lost 9k hp from using abilities through confusion?). The simple truth is that the same thing you just ardently defended becomes a problem, just because thief used it. All because you have an irrational bias against thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > thief deals over 10k dmg WITHOUT confusion, the moment F2 shatter lands 10k+ dmg AND confusion we can have this talk > > > > > > > > > > > > Ah yes, how could I forget. The 10k steal "burst" that ticks over *15 seconds*. That was a joke before, and it still is a joke. But dont tell me you forgot "Maim the Disillusioned". Oh and the Prestige, of course. Probably could slap on some phantasmal axes as well. > > > > > > > > > > maim deals under 400dmg/clone assuming you move through entire duration, 3clone F2 in melee range would deal 1600 dmg with the torment. > > > > > > > > 500 damage, times 3. Well, 560 if youre running Signet of Midnight, and more if you run the Torment Duration sigil, but I see the former rarely the latter never. So 2000 with 3 clones, but I think you usually use 2 clones, so 3 times. > > > > > > > > > If we add in torch 4+torch 5+jaunt + 3clones F2 in melee, we will get ~12k dmg +8confusion. > > > > > > > > Id add Axe 2 + Axe Ambush + seeking axes over Torch 5. Since you do use the former to get the clones most of the time anyway. 2 clones because 1 from Axe 2 + 1 from Self-deception. Lets slap on a Sigil of Midnight, too. Thats, lets see. 3664+1221 off of The Prestige, 2242 off of Axe 2, 747 off of ambush, 1492 off of the 2 phantasmal seeking axes spawned, 1680 off of maim the disillusioned. Plus some amount of power damage Im going to ignore because I cant be bothered. Total of 11046. More if you get compounding power stacks but again, I cannot be bothered with this. > > > > > > > > > its almost the same!, exept 1 melee range, 2 you have to generate clones, 3 torch 4 has 3s delay > > > > > meanwhile thief presses 3+f1 from 1200 range and applies this much instantly, be it stealth or not. That is not counting even venoms. > > > > > > > > Interestingly you forgot to mention the far more important difference. The thief "burst" ticks over *15 seconds*. I dont think I can stress enough how absurdly long of a time **15 seconds** are. This ticks in total over 10 seconds, but most of its damage happens in 3.5 seconds. Even if you take away the burning past that, youre just missing about 2k damage, which puts it at 9k, just slightly under thieves 10k. Without having to wait 15 seconds like the thief. This is actual burst. The thief "burst" is a joke. > > > > > > now you are comparing melee range, over 1s cast time combo to 1200 range instacast and still come in lacking xd > > > > I come out ahead (11k>10k). But let me remind you again, _**15 SECONDS**_. Seriously how do you type that "burst" out and not break down in laughter at how stupid what youre typing is? With that "burst", I could stand up, go to the kitchen, pour myself a cup of tea, come back, and it *still* wouldnt have finished the "burst". Hell at that point Im pretty sure a Warrior could just go AFK and not lose even a fifth of his healthbar in total. So yeah, that "burst" is a joke. If we restrict it to a more reasonable timeframe for "burst", like lets say, the 3.5 seconds I chose here, remind me again, how much damage does that "burst" do? 3k? 4k? Something as pathetic as that. > > I stated 10k LIGHTLY, its over 10k without using venoms to begin with, and without channeling repeater. doing your over 1,5s+ cast times we might as well count in repeater 2k+ bleed, 1k+ power damage, additional 6 venom power procs for 2k, and 4,2k+ poison for 20k+ damage > I recall it only being slightly over 10k. 10.2, or something like that? Also bad math, 0.75 + 0.5 < 1.5. Funny thing is, we could leave the ambush out (reducing it to 0.75) and only lose 1492 damage, still outdamaging the thief "burst" by 100%. At that point you only get 3 shots from Repeater, so even then its much less. And I see you continue to dodge around the joke that is _**15 SECONDS**_. Guess even you realised how bad that looks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 @"UNOwen.7132" I went through the numbers again, to prove a point, if you gonna make stupid combo so will I. 15 stacks of lead attacks, steal, 3 + venom + shadow strike+ repeater. what hits : steal -> 6156 poison damage + confusion, gives might and applies vulnerability for other skills. = 6156 shadow strike -> 1485 power damage + 1846 poison damage + 5646 torment damage = 8977 5 repeater bullets -> 1345 power damage + 3155 bleed damage = 4500 7 procs of venom -> 2 gained from stealth, 5 from ability use during the combo. -> 3136 power damage + 1847 poison + 4617 poison (utility) = 9600 Total damage = 9 600+6 156+8 977+4 500 =29 233damage. 5966 of that damage is POWER. There is also confusion, I assume enemy doesnt use skills, I dont count confusion dot, otherwise another 180 damage. 1,25s cast time of the burst if practiced to perfection. Range of the combo -> 1330. Whats needed before the combo. 1 Spam away all ini, doesnt matter how to gain lead attacks. 2 Stealth, however you wish to do it, and remain stealthed for at least 3,1s 3 Press 3->f1->3->(venom before bullets connect). enjoy 30k damage. EDIT the combo took 34% HP from INDESTRUCTIBLE golem in pvp zone. Mesmer combo off Prestige + axe 2+axe ambush + jaunt +F2+f1 shatter did 21% of the golems HP. I used sigil of smoldering for extra damage AND signet of midnight. its not more bursty, burning lasts 12,25s. and the combo has less power damage component, it also doesnt heal :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pninak.1069 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 this whole thing would be easier if people complained about the specific builds like they do with power. can't be that hard to find the overperforming condi specs since most of the condi specs are underdogs to power anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 > @"pninak.1069" said: > this whole thing would be easier if people complained about the specific builds like they do with power. can't be that hard to find the overperforming condi specs since most of the condi specs are underdogs to power anyway. cthief and crev, burn guard is dps outpot is toxic but the build itself is not OP. other then that most cbuilds fucking suck, mb necro but its survivability issue not damage issue, if anything they could bump necro damage and shove some facetanking from them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > @"UNOwen.7132" > I went through the numbers again, to prove a point, if you gonna make stupid combo so will I. > 15 stacks of lead attacks, steal, 3 + venom + shadow strike+ repeater. How exactly does the thief have 15 stacks of lead attacks? Remember, cant be stacked out of combat. I didnt include Compounding Power either, remember? And only 2 clones, because thats realistic. > what hits : > steal -> 6156 poison damage + confusion, gives might and applies vulnerability for other skills. = 6156 > shadow strike -> 1485 power damage + 1846 poison damage + 5646 torment damage = 8977 > 5 repeater bullets -> 1345 power damage + 3155 bleed damage = 4500 > 7 procs of venom -> 2 gained from stealth, 5 from ability use during the combo. -> 3136 power damage + 1847 poison + 4617 poison (utility) = 9600 > If youre getting 5 repeater bullets, thats quite a bit more time the Mesmer has to do things. I guess slap on the ambush and Torch 5. Now, to correct the errors. There are, well, a lot of them. Lets see. Leeching Venom procs for 383. 7 stacks (which you dont get, you get 5 since you dont enter with stealth in the first place, but I digress) is 2681 damage. Torment damage is 4263. Bleeding damage 2980. Poison damage on Shadow Strike 1407. Poison on steal 4689. Poison on utility 3519. On trait 1407. > Total damage = 9 600+6 156+8 977+4 500 =29 233damage. > 5966 of that damage is POWER. Corrected damage: 2681+4263+2980+1407+4689+3519+1407+1485+1345= 23776 over 15 seconds. > There is also confusion, I assume enemy doesnt use skills, I dont count confusion dot, otherwise another 180 damage. > 1,25s cast time of the burst if practiced to perfection. Nope. Shadow Strikes initial hit has no cast time, but you are locked in the teleport and followup shot animation. It takes around half to three quarter a second. Total cast time: 1.75-2.0 seconds. > Range of the combo -> 1330. Incorrect. Steal cannot be used out of range. Max range, 1200. > Whats needed before the combo. > 1 Spam away all ini, doesnt matter how to gain lead attacks. Doesnt work. Lead Attacks cannot be stacked out of combat. > 2 Stealth, however you wish to do it, and remain stealthed for at least 3,1s Theoretically possible, but practically not so much. Requires burning healing skill (and losing the, well, healing) or Shadow Refuge (losing the Shadow Projectile finisher potential). Hence 5, not 7. Remove 766 power and 1407 condition damage to adjust. > 3 Press 3->f1->3->(venom before bullets connect). > enjoy 30k damage. > 21603, actually. > EDIT > the combo took 34% HP from INDESTRUCTIBLE golem in pvp zone. > > Mesmer combo off Prestige + axe 2+axe ambush + jaunt +F2+f1 shatter did 21% of the golems HP. > I used sigil of smoldering for extra damage AND signet of midnight. > Turns out combo where most of its damage relies on torment hits less hard than combo where majority of its damage relies on poison or bleed on target that cannot move. Imagine my lack of shock. But now, lets do the same cold listing of numbers you did for thief, for the Mirage combo. Alright then, standard Mirage. Since youre using Rune of Thorns over the actually used Rune of Lynx, I will use Rune of Balthasar. Its not as good as Rune of Thorns is for Thief, but we do not have a Torment enhancing rune, sadly. Sigils of Smoldering and Misery. Axe 2, 1029 power damage, 2091 torment damage. Axe Ambush, 840 power damage, 1394 torment damage. 2 phantasmal seeking axes, 686 power damage, 1568 torment damage. Cry of Frustration, 1095 power damage, 1569 torment damage. The Prestige, 369 power damage, 4863 burning damage itself, 1621 burning damage from trait. Torch 5. 956 power damage. 9726 burning damage (I think. The display is oddly buggy). Jaunt, 300 power damage. Total damage: 1029+2091+840+1394+686+1568+1095+1569+369+4863+1621+956+9726+300 = 28107. Total cast time: 2.0 seconds. This is ignoring compounding power other than for the power damage of the phantasmal mage (because I cannot be bothered), and with a 2 clone shatter. Quite a lot higher, isnt it? Now if this was how damage worked, why Condi Mirage would be absurd. Downing any target from full health, and this isnt including the confusion damage. But we both know why it isnt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pninak.1069 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 yea I know. condibuilds are pretty much trivial once you got enough condi cleanse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 > @"pninak.1069" said: > yea I know. condibuilds are pretty much trivial once you got enough condi cleanse. Thats precisely the issue. If you have enough condi cleanse, theyre useless. If you dont, you die without being able to do anything. *Engaging gameplay*. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pninak.1069 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 you are pretty much in a battle against the clock. you kill a cbuild quick enough they can't do as many conditions. I mean that's the whole idea of condibuilds. lower overall dmg but winning in the longterm. I think it is also one of the reasons why cbuilds use rabid gear or trailblazer stats. but trailblazer can no longer be used in pvp. so builds going for long condi duration aren't really an option at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 > @"pninak.1069" said: > you are pretty much in a battle against the clock. you kill a cbuild quick enough they can't do as many conditions. I mean that's the whole idea of condibuilds. lower overall dmg but winning in the longterm. I think it is also one of the reasons why cbuilds use rabid gear or trailblazer stats. but trailblazer can no longer be used in pvp. so builds going for long condi duration aren't really an option at this point. That *would* be the idea of conditions. Except, in actuality they burst harder than power too (like, a *lot* harder) if you dont have condi cleanse. You just have to have enough cleanses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pninak.1069 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 depends on build really. the cthief works with burst only if thief guild and venoms are used. mirage works if you got enough clones and prepared mirrors in order to trigger ambush+ hit with shatter. if you cleanse at the right time 90% of the dmg is mitigated. for power you still gonna take the majority of dmg if they prepared their spikes well. like getting a long immobalize before a quick 100b. I think power hardly got any ramp up time. you just got spikes which will continue to get stronger depending how often you hit the enemy. for condi this isn't really the case. you rely on some condi skills to combo with others skills to add more stacks instead. and if you got specific traits that remove dmaging condis like burning most of the dmg will be negated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 > @"pninak.1069" said: > depends on build really. the cthief works with burst only if thief guild and venoms are used. mirage works if you got enough clones and prepared mirrors in order to trigger ambush+ hit with shatter. if you cleanse at the right time 90% of the dmg is mitigated. for power you still gonna take the majority of dmg if they prepared their spikes well. like getting a long immobalize before a quick 100b. > Nah every condi build bursts extremely hard if you dont have cleanses. Thats why you need to have cleanses on literally every build to stand a chance. Its kinda the whole issue. Anyway conditions dont really have a ramp-up time. Just a "get all their cleanses out of the way" time. > I think power hardly got any ramp up time. you just got spikes which will continue to get stronger depending how often you hit the enemy. for condi this isn't really the case. you rely on some condi skills to combo with others skills to add more stacks instead. and if you got specific traits that remove dmaging condis like burning most of the dmg will be negated. Power has the same ramp up time as conditions. Just in their case its "get their active defenses out of the way". And nah, those traits alone arent enough. You need burst clears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frareanselm.1925 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 The "Nerf this" threads should be forbidden in a official forum. Everybody defends their main profession and really dont care about true balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pninak.1069 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 I think hybrid builds are the winners in pvp. they profit from both. and yes condi cleanses are needed, but you don't really need as much. I ran necro bunker before they nerfed it and I pretty much used two condi cleanses only. one being staff skill 4 and other being a trait proc that send 3 condis back to the enemy. in wvw I am doing fine with just having 3 condi cleases and emergency invul on shatter 4. ranger got a good amount of cleanses and they can even combo them for bursts. scrapper got whirlfinishers for cleansing shots in water fields. I find it a good dynamic. everyone is forced to take condi cleanse and stunbreak. build variety would be severaly crippled if power would have an easy time without even carrying cleases. and don't forget that some players even got partywide cleanses on them. like ranger and their healing spring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 > @"pninak.1069" said: > I think hybrid builds are the winners in pvp. they profit from both. and yes condi cleanses are needed, but you don't really need as much. I ran necro bunker before they nerfed it and I pretty much used two condi cleanses only. one being staff skill 4 and other being a trait proc that send 3 condis back to the enemy. in wvw I am doing fine with just having 3 condi cleases and emergency invul on shatter 4. ranger got a good amount of cleanses and they can even combo them for bursts. scrapper got whirlfinishers for cleansing shots in water fields. > You need a lot of them. I find it hard to believe you could survive with just staff 4 and that trait, even as a bunker. All a condi thief would need to do is hit you with a steal burst, then when you cleanse that hit you with more repeaters. Condi Mirage is similar. Burn Guard, sure, you dont need much for those. Condi Rev, again you need a bunch. Im running 1 auto-cleanse, 1 full cleanse and 2 utility cleanses on Engineer and its often not enough (meaning I have to run Elixir C which I prefer not to). > I find it a good dynamic. everyone is forced to take condi cleanse and stunbreak. build variety would be severaly crippled if power would have an easy time without even carrying cleases. and don't forget that some players even got partywide cleanses on them. like ranger and their healing spring. Its not. Having to have condi cleanses lowers build diversity and makes those without the ability to cleanse well a lot weaker compared to their brethren. Build variety would *improve* if cleanses no longer worked on damage conditions, and conditions were retooled around that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pninak.1069 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 so you would change condis to an effect like lifesteal. smth that can't be removed and scales with smth. else than condi dmg. you could argue that it lower builds diversity. but the game offers many more ways to play builds now. if it wasn't for condi cleanse power would rule supreme without condi even having a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 @"UNOwen.7132" not a single number is correct, damn why do I keep getting baited, not gonna argue with you anymore, this time for realz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pninak.1069 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 I have been in wvw subforum recently where someone showed a deathrecap with 145k burn dmg taken. ofc the people advocating for condi dmg nerf overlook that death recaps show everything except heals. so the fight might have lasted 5 mins leading to such a high number. and still some people fall for that crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 > @"pninak.1069" said: > I have been in wvw subforum recently where someone showed a deathrecap with 145k burn dmg taken. ofc the people advocating for condi dmg nerf overlook that death recaps show everything except heals. so the fight might have lasted 5 mins leading to such a high number. and still some people fall for that kitten. after eating 25k+ aoe long range hits, 50k rapid fires etc I no longer give a crap about wvw balance, the ship has long sailed lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > @"UNOwen.7132" not a single number is correct, kitten why do I keep getting baited, not gonna argue with you anymore, this time for realz Except *every single number* is correct. I should know, I got it from going into the Heart of the Mists, and checking each of them individually (the power damage by actually hitting. The condi damage by looking at the tooltips). Yours howevere were indeed almost all entirely incorrect. The only one who "got baited" here is me, expecting you to own up to your mistake (or fabrication, apparently Mesmers like to do that). But sure, if you want to implicitely admit to being wrong, be my guest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > @"UNOwen.7132" not a single number is correct, kitten why do I keep getting baited, not gonna argue with you anymore, this time for realz Its funny actually, I looked back at that build editor you used and tried to check and see if you got your wrong numbers there, but nope. [They](http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAUpjlFw2YHML2IO2OardA-zZoOkUECZqC6VC40B) line up with what Im saying and not what youre saying as well. Almost down to the decimal, the only exception being that the bleeding damage on your build is *lower* because I used the bleeding duration sigil. So congratulations. You got disproven not just by me, but by yourself too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pninak.1069 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 I don't care about numbers. it is so easy to say them and praying on other forum members not to check them. I mean most people are lazy enough not to do it. Including me. I don't really see worth in a discussion once you bring math into it. And since I play all classes myself I think that I can atleast understand what people are referring to. ofc there are also players complaining about traits etc. that don't work like they think they do. like IH, which is just a trigger for ambush attacks and doesn't do dmg on its own. For some reason people like complaining about stuff they don't understand. this is propably true for me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > @"saerni.2584" the problem with cthief is that they apply 10k+ damage instantly from stealth, with no tell. the moment you can defend yourself they will barrage you with more power/bleed/poison or just cover the big poison. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do have to admit I find your ability to swap between 2 contradicting positions ("condi is fine even though it does ridiculous damage instantly with no tell, but not if thief is using it because its thief") without even so much as stumbling rather impressive, but please do stick to one of them. Either condi is a problem, or it, including condi thief, is not. All condi builds operate the same way, after all. > > > > > > > > > > > > quote me > > > > > > > > > > You were defending condi the entire first half of this thread, and now youre suddenly against it so long as thief is using it. Are you denying either half? I mean not that it helps you much, its at this point become clear that you think anything thief does is a problem, but only if *thief* does it, and its fine if any other class does it. Just irrational thief hatred taken to an extreme degree. > > > > > > > > quote me > > > > > > "the problem with cthief is that they apply 10k+ damage instantly from stealth, with no tell." > > > > > > "ofc power will seem "weaker" because you cant make the booboo go away after you it it, if holo cornoa+holo 4 you for 8k total its 8k you are not getting back, its not like burning that you can cleanse like it never happened". > > > > > > Or if we take things from other threads, how about "I have 1 condi cleanse every 30s and im doing guchi". > > > > > > Oh or my personal favourite, "condi builds cant do that other then some niche or specific cases like burn buard or mass confusion from condi mesmer into you hurting yourself with confusion.". Yeah apparently when Mesmer kills you with confusion its you hurting yourself. When thief does it, its thieves fault. Cognitive dissonance as a result of irrational anti-thief bias. Nothing more. > > > >, as usual, you fail to read and comprehend what is written, case closed. > > Translation: "I have no answer and would rather keep my cognitive dissonance, so I will try and deflect". So let me ask this. Why is Mesmers confusion burst fine, but Thieves isn't? Mesmers aren't any avoidable after all. In your eyes, it's fine because it only does damage if the opponent spams like an idiot, but the same is true for thief, yet you have a problem with thief (remember that video where the guy died to thief steal burst, but only because he lost 9k hp from using abilities through the confusion?). The simple truth is that the same thing you just ardently defended becomes a problem, just because thief used it. All because you have an irrational bias against the thief. You would have to overhaul sustainabilities and other stuff, and it might not be possible due to complications. See conditions have to deal damage and kill you, and generally speaking there are maybe a couple of actual specs that can burst you fast enough with conditions to kill you. Your best bet is to probably change the problematic specs and leave the others alone. Suppose for instance C rev wasn't a problem and it gets hit with a massive condi nerf affecting a certain amount of its builds for pve and SPVP, well the players would be furious and you would possibly risk having ANET lose even more people for PVP. I'm not sure how good Condi thief is, but I fear for them, I worry that they will get destroyed in conditions, and for those who say good, think again, because your spec could be next on the chopping block. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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