Obtena.7952 Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > You should probably ask yourself why the way you think the game works is not the way it actually works. > > > > I don't get what you are implying here ... I'm not imagining things when I see people getting teams and being successful with necros ... pretty sure of that. That's not me THINKING it works, that's me SEEING it works. > > > You mean all the cases where you said something is impossible, is never gonna happen, or never happened, to be immediately countered with actual, easy to find, in-game examples (which you keep pretending not to notice) never happened. Right. > > > > Again ... if you have a point, just say it ... my beliefs are based on what ANYONE can observe happening in the game, not something I've contrived to justify something I want. > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > ... and we STILL don't have DPS meta balancing ... > > > > > > > So? that something has always been broken does not mean we should not strive to get it fixed. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not arguing it shouldn't be fixed. I'm arguing that fixing with DPS doesn't make sense. > > > > > The only other way would be to give reaper a ton of support. > > > > > > > > No it's not the only way ... Anet can decide to do whatever they want to any of the specs Necro has. Don't pretend there aren't paths forward on class changes to justify DPS as the best way to go. That's about as contrived as it gets. > > > > > > Necro DPS builds are currently lacking in both DPS and support. > > > > I won't debate that because 'lacking' means there is something to compare it to and I'm doubtful we will agree with what that is. > > > > What I do know is true is that DPS isn't not going to make Necro's meta unless they get top spot. Again ... why do people want a warrior in their team? You don't answer that question because you don't want that same kind of a solution for Necro's to be meta. > > > > > > Can you maybe stop making every thing bad that says buff necro? Listen, I've made my points to why I don't think DPS is a good path to making Necros desirable in PUG Meta teams. If you don't want to address the points I've made and just make blanket generalizations that I hate necro buffs, we don't have much to talk about because it's not true. Solution to 'not desirable' in meta PUGs is NOT DPS. I've said why I think this is true. I've also stated the alternative to buffing DPS for desirability increase is giving them more desirable team buffs ... a more reasonable and likely approach. And of course, back to the obvious answer ... learning to play with people you can team with ... a solution that already exists. You post is bordering on what I actually suspect is happening in most of these cases. You aren't interested in solving any problem ... you're just using an existing condition/situation to justify a buff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Methuselah.4376 Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Methuselah.4376" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > What I do know is true is that DPS isn't not going to make Necro's meta unless they get top spot. Again ... why do people want a warrior in their team? You don't answer that question because you don't want that same kind of a solution for Necro's to be meta. > > > > > > > > This argument just baffles me. Reaper is brought as a DPS but problem is that in a good group that dps falls far behind. > > I don't get what you are confused about. If reapers fall behind in 'good groups' ... what kind of DPS do you think 'good groups' will want Reaper to have to be desirable? What do you mean by 'good groups'? If good groups don't take you at 31K ... do you think 'good groups' would take you at anything BUT top DPS ranking? Like I said ... top DPS classes are not hard to come by ... so if you want to compete for DPS spots with those classes, you need top DPS. > > You define meta as _such as it is as far as dps is "bring whatever you do decent damage with_". That's not what meta means. Meta = optimal play, not whatever you want to define it to be. Seems to me much of the confusion is the vague terminology that you want to use to discuss because I can't reply to your post without some clarifications. > See you're just being arbitrary cause you skimmed over a whole section of my argument. Your mentality is beyond rigid. People run meta builds, and while there are optimal class comps for every encounter as described by SC, no one follows those. There's no meta comp, just meta builds that perform to the best of their ability and one of those meta builds falls behind on what it's meant to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 > @"Methuselah.4376" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Methuselah.4376" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > What I do know is true is that DPS isn't not going to make Necro's meta unless they get top spot. Again ... why do people want a warrior in their team? You don't answer that question because you don't want that same kind of a solution for Necro's to be meta. > > > > > > > > > > > This argument just baffles me. Reaper is brought as a DPS but problem is that in a good group that dps falls far behind. > > > > I don't get what you are confused about. If reapers fall behind in 'good groups' ... what kind of DPS do you think 'good groups' will want Reaper to have to be desirable? What do you mean by 'good groups'? If good groups don't take you at 31K ... do you think 'good groups' would take you at anything BUT top DPS ranking? Like I said ... top DPS classes are not hard to come by ... so if you want to compete for DPS spots with those classes, you need top DPS. > > > > You define meta as _such as it is as far as dps is "bring whatever you do decent damage with_". That's not what meta means. Meta = optimal play, not whatever you want to define it to be. Seems to me much of the confusion is the vague terminology that you want to use to discuss because I can't reply to your post without some clarifications. > > > > See you're just being arbitrary cause you skimmed over a whole section of my argument. Your mentality is beyond rigid. People run meta builds, and while there are optimal class comps for every encounter as described by SC, no one follows those. There's no meta comp, just meta builds that perform to the best of their ability and one of those meta builds falls behind on what it's meant to do. That's not answering my question ... what 'good groups' aren't taking Reaper if you just told me groups are taking Reaper 'brought in as DPS' ... I mean ... I don't get what problem you think your trying to solve here and 'good groups' is much to vague to have a reason about. That also seems like two conflicting set of statements/ideas. I think it's clear that the 'necro' problem is limited to PUG teams that want optimal play. So let's go with that. You are going to tell me these PUG teams that want optimal play don't follow optimal class comps for encounters ... but have a problem with a not-optimal individual class so nerco gets the cold shoulder. I get that PUG teams aren't strictly following the comps because you can't be too picky OK .... but they ARE going to be willing to hold out for classes they want that are meta as you already say ... OK. So the question remains ... what kind of things is going to make Reaper meta for PUG teams to take them? If you want restrict yourself to ONLY DPS you need to be desirable as a SOLELY DPS META class, you need to probably be in the 37K+ DPS range; 20% increase. I osrt of choose this handwavingly because there are 6 classes that are in that range for small hitbox. OK So if you don't give reaper 20% increase in DPS, why would any PUG meta team want you if there are 6 other classes out there that can do better to fill that spot? Not only that, those classes have other desirable features/buffs as well. You aren't going to compete with that as a solely DPS meta class in anything below top DPS ranking. That just does not make sense. Here is the thing no one that supports the 'more DPS' idea really wants to acknowledge ... garbage DPS class warriors get teams ... all the time. It's because they bring something that EVERY team benefits from, regardless of their DPS ... So you want more DPS ... well, clearly it's not because you want to get meta PUG teams, that's for sure. The worst part is that there are a whole bunch of (more DPS' people that don't think I want necros buffed or their problems fixed ... the irony is pretty strong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Methuselah.4376" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > What I do know is true is that DPS isn't not going to make Necro's meta unless they get top spot. Again ... why do people want a warrior in their team? You don't answer that question because you don't want that same kind of a solution for Necro's to be meta. > > > > > This argument just baffles me. Reaper is brought as a DPS but problem is that in a good group that dps falls far behind. > > I don't get what you are confused about. If reapers fall behind in 'good groups' ... what kind of DPS do you think 'good groups' will want Reaper to have to be desirable? Similar to the ones other DPS classes have. Both in benchmark (i'd say with the current meta 34k would be absolute minimum, 35-36k would be desirable) and on actual bosses. > If good groups don't take you at 31K ... do you think 'good groups' would take you at anything BUT top DPS ranking? Yes, because they take other dps classes that are not top dps. Top tier is 38-40k now, but for example Condi Soulbeast benches 36k (the dagger+torch/axe+dagger build, the shortbow build is a bit lower). Power daredevil is at 35k. Those builds have absolutely no trouble being admitted. I'd say that 35-36k would also be enough for Reaper to not be considered a liability as well. > Like I said ... top DPS classes are not hard to come by ... so if you want to compete for DPS spots with those classes, you need top DPS. Like i said before, in this case the reality does not match your vision of how it works. Again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Methuselah.4376" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > What I do know is true is that DPS isn't not going to make Necro's meta unless they get top spot. Again ... why do people want a warrior in their team? You don't answer that question because you don't want that same kind of a solution for Necro's to be meta. > > > > > > > This argument just baffles me. Reaper is brought as a DPS but problem is that in a good group that dps falls far behind. > > > > I don't get what you are confused about. If reapers fall behind in 'good groups' ... what kind of DPS do you think 'good groups' will want Reaper to have to be desirable? > Similar to the ones other DPS classes have. Both in benchmark (i'd say with the current meta 34k would be absolute minimum, 35-36k would be desirable) and on actual bosses. > That barely begins to be enough so that a PUG meta team will take a necro, especially if there are still 6 more classes doing more than that they can choose from. > > If good groups don't take you at 31K ... do you think 'good groups' would take you at anything BUT top DPS ranking? > Yes, because they take other dps classes that are not top dps. Right ... because they have team buffs, NOT because they have good DPS. Giving 'good' DPS to a necro is not what is going to get them a PUG meta team unless it's in the top ranking where they aren't competing with EVERY class on DPS. If you bring something that every class has, you got nothing, especially when other classes are proficient to team buffs and desirable effects in other areas. > > > Like I said ... top DPS classes are not hard to come by ... so if you want to compete for DPS spots with those classes, you need top DPS. > Like i said before, in this case the reality does not match your vision of how it works. Again. > > If that's the case, we aren't talking about the same thing. how I understand the game's reality is not a problem. You keep eluding to this reality I don't get ... feel free to explain to me what you are talking about. I know it's advantageous for you to ignore the fact that the team buffs are what make classes desirable because you already know the solution you want is DPS but there shouldn't even be debatable. If that wasn't true, warriors would be as hard up for getting a team as necros are ... but they aren't, it's the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimon.7840 Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > You should probably ask yourself why the way you think the game works is not the way it actually works. > > > > > I don't get what you are implying here ... I'm not imagining things when I see people getting teams and being successful with necros ... pretty sure of that. That's not me THINKING it works, that's me SEEING it works. > > > > You mean all the cases where you said something is impossible, is never gonna happen, or never happened, to be immediately countered with actual, easy to find, in-game examples (which you keep pretending not to notice) never happened. Right. > > > > > > Again ... if you have a point, just say it ... my beliefs are based on what ANYONE can observe happening in the game, not something I've contrived to justify something I want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > ... and we STILL don't have DPS meta balancing ... > > > > > > > > So? that something has always been broken does not mean we should not strive to get it fixed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not arguing it shouldn't be fixed. I'm arguing that fixing with DPS doesn't make sense. > > > > > > The only other way would be to give reaper a ton of support. > > > > > > > > > > No it's not the only way ... Anet can decide to do whatever they want to any of the specs Necro has. Don't pretend there aren't paths forward on class changes to justify DPS as the best way to go. That's about as contrived as it gets. > > > > > > > > Necro DPS builds are currently lacking in both DPS and support. > > > > > > I won't debate that because 'lacking' means there is something to compare it to and I'm doubtful we will agree with what that is. > > > > > > What I do know is true is that DPS isn't not going to make Necro's meta unless they get top spot. Again ... why do people want a warrior in their team? You don't answer that question because you don't want that same kind of a solution for Necro's to be meta. > > > > > > > > > > Can you maybe stop making every thing bad that says buff necro? > > Listen, I've made my points to why I don't think DPS is a good path to making Necros desirable in PUG Meta teams. If you don't want to address the points I've made and just make blanket generalizations that I hate necro buffs, we don't have much to talk about because it's not true. You didn't read my whole post did you? Or maybe I still didn't make my point clear enough: it's not only about buffing necro's dps. Buffing dps is just the easiest way to do it. Anet could also introduce a unique buff that makes necro desireable. And I'm not talking about pugs. I'm talking about statics as well as pugs. But mainly I'm talking about statics. I myself and a lot of other people, don't want to feel bad because they are playing for example reaper. Why would we feel bad? Because our numbers are a lot lower than the ones of other classes. So if I play reaper in my static and do like 20k dps, while everyone else is doing 26k. It feels like you don't contribute as much to the kill, as those 26k dudes do. Let me tell you a story about my statics raid yesterday. Someone of the static was late due to real life, so we looked for a pug to join us for soulless horror, river and statues (yeah we could have done river and statues as 9). This pug guy told us, when joining, that he only killed sh once. We still took him with us and he did pretty good on his firebrand even though he died at some point to our wall rng. Then he already said goodbye. An we were like "just stay, you can still get the reward for river and statues. And he said "no I don't want to feel carried" So we explained what to do and got smoothly to dhuum. He was happy he could see "daddy dhuum" as he called the boss. And being able to sit on dhuums lap. So the whole point of the story: it is important what you feel in the game. If you feel bad (feel like getting carried) you won't be happy in the long term. If you feel good, you will be happy. It's all about this. The feeling that you actually contributed something to the bosses. If anet introduced a buff to necro, that would increases it's damage by your group hitting the boss (like firebrands tome 1 does). Or a buff that straight up buffs the raids dps by 10%. Fine. Why not. (Even though I don't really like that idea. I think buffs like this shouldn't be in the game. Like warrior banners, assassin's presence and so on) While necro does have such a thing, in form of vampiric presence, this unique buff isn't anywhere as strong as the other class buffs. Neither does it buff dps (if I remember correctly it's at best a 2k dps increase for your 5 man group) while it's a dps loss for you (if I remember correctly a benchmark with bloodmagic is around 27/28k dps). While it also only increases the survivability of bad groups, it doesn't do much in medium to good groups, as there's a healer that has a job. > > Solution to 'not desirable' in meta PUGs is NOT DPS. I've said why I think this is true. I've also stated the alternative to buffing DPS for desirability increase is giving them more desirable team buffs ... a more reasonable and likely approach. And of course, back to the obvious answer ... learning to play with people you can team with ... a solution that already exists. I already explained this matter of the last part above. I am allowed to play necro in my static. But if my numbers aren't as high as the ones of other players on other classes. I do feel carried to some degree of my whole purpose on this boss was dps. While I would be glad if anet introduced a desireable teambuff to necro. I would be at the same time not glad that they do it. As you see above. Do you remember when druid was mandatory because of the insane grace of the lands buff? It was considered op and got removed to free up comps. For the same reason firebrand and renegade can give mandatory buffs being alacrity and quickness, to not have to play double Chrono on every boss. I'm still not happy, that warrior kept it's op buffs (banners) and is still mandatory for almost every boss/comp. Same goes for spirits on ranger. They are so strong, that you even use them, if you don't have a druid in your raid. So a dps soulbeast has to swap out one of his utility skills. The easiest way to buff necro to an desireable state would be to just adjust numbers. If you have a great idea, that isn't just a niche buff that necro could give, but at the same time isn't so extremely overpowered that it would get mandatory for every single group. Tell me. If you already shared your idea with us, then I missed it. Sorry. Would you be so kind to share it again? > > You post is bordering on what I actually suspect is happening in most of these cases. You aren't interested in solving any problem ... you're just using an existing condition/situation to justify a buff. That's just not true. Me and a lot of other people shared a lot of ideas on how to buff necro, without buffing it's dps. For example make scourge an actual healer. Not just a carry for bad groups. If you could for example keep up 25might for 10 people, like druid and tempest can. Or if it could give buffs like quickness, alacrity, fury, swiftness. But it's just: you can barrier and rezz. And it seems like some mechanics even see barrier as additional max health and deal more damage then. There really have been countless suggestions on how to change it buff necro. Some really good, some not so good. Yes, I also made bad suggestions, because I didn't think about certain interactions for example. Let's take the scourge change for example. Introduce a trait that removes all offensive power from shades, but they get improved support effects. For example instead of fearing enemies with f4, f4 would now give stability. But there's a lot of problem with this. A lot more work to do. If you remove all offend with this trait, what happens to offensive procs? Like dhuumfire, the corrupt in f2, the procs on shroud entry that both corrupt as well (curses and spite),... And so on. And since people's efforts on how to rework, or buff certain things got completely invited in the past, people stopped putting so much effort into it, just asking for the easiest way to do balance. Introducing reworks or such buffs is a lot more work to do than just adding 100 damage here, add 100 there, add a 10% modifier to that trait. > > > Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > ... and we STILL don't have DPS meta balancing ... > > So? that something has always been broken does not mean we should not strive to get it fixed. > > I'm not arguing it shouldn't be fixed. I'm arguing that fixing with DPS doesn't make sense. I have no problem with people wanting Necro to be meta ... but giving them smatterings of DPS isn't going to do it ... that hasn't worked for 8 years. No one is going to take a Necro in a meta PUG team unless they become the TOP DPS spot. You think that's going happen ... If the last 8 years is an indication, it's not. > > The sad part is that if Anet came in with a balance patch tomorrow that equalized everyone's damage ... you STILL wouldn't get a team with Meta PUG's because DPS isn't what is holding Necro back from being on those teams. Warrior has terrible damage too ... but they get teams. You aren't asking yourself why the game works as it does. > > The game is meant to be fun for everyone, or as many as possible, and when you are at a severe disadvantage in pve that you can never really catch up to someone and pass them unless they are bad and you are really good, then it is a problem. Whether you like it or not(don't know why you are arguing) Nec is in an odd position in pve, the odd man out so to speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > If good groups don't take you at 31K ... do you think 'good groups' would take you at anything BUT top DPS ranking? > > Yes, because they take other dps classes that are not top dps. > > Right ... because they have team buffs, NOT because they have good DPS. You never actually pugged, did you. Because it seems you have absolutely no idea why people are taking some classes and not others. Practically noone in Pugs cares about any buffs from Holo (i'm not even sure there are any worth mentioning). Nor do they care about them from staff daredevils. Or insist that condi ranger carries spotter and spirits (which usually they do not do, because it is an individual dps loss). If LFG asks for a dps, you join in as dps, and for most groups being able to expect you to not do subpar dps is completely enough. Necros currently do subpar dps, have been doing subpar dps for years, and everyone knows it. _That_ is a problem. Yes, you could possibly give them a highly desirable buff in the warrior banners style, but that would be a very bad solution. That would make Necros not a choice, but a fixture, and we need less of those, not more. All that we need is for them to be able to compete for dps slots. Give players more choices, not less. > Giving 'good' DPS to a necro is not what is going to get them a PUG meta team unless it's in the top ranking where they aren't competing with EVERY class on DPS. If you bring something that every class has, you got nothing, especially when other classes are proficient to team buffs and desirable effects in other areas. If you bring what every class has, you have the same chance to get in as those classes. Competing on equal footing is fine. It's the situation where there's no competition whatsoever, because you simply flat out lose when compared to any other class that is a problem. > > > Like I said ... top DPS classes are not hard to come by ... so if you want to compete for DPS spots with those classes, you need top DPS. > > Like i said before, in this case the reality does not match your vision of how it works. Again. > > > If that's the case, we aren't talking about the same thing. how I understand the game's reality is not a problem. You keep eluding to this reality I don't get ... feel free to explain to me what you are talking about. I know it's advantageous for you to ignore the fact that the team buffs are what make classes desirable because you already know the solution you want is DPS but there shouldn't even be debatable. That's exactly the thing i am talking about. You make an assumption about the game here. An assumption that anyone actually playing the content would know isn't as true as you think it is. If you think PUGs are sitting around, willing to wait till they get a perfect group composition, you have never actually pugged. > If that wasn't true, warriors would be as hard up for getting a team as necros are ... but they aren't, it's the opposite. Yes, banner warriors are a fixture (that's actually bad, but it is a discussion for a completely separate thread). But banner warriors are not competing for the 5-6 dps slots group has. DPS warriors compete there - and those are not being taken for their support (because they have _none_) but for having a benchmark dps in the 36k-37k range. The reason why Reaper is not being considered for **DPS** slot, is because it lacks **dps**. Not because it lacks support (although, obviously, it having no support worth mentioning does not help). Notice also, that condi banner and strength banner builds still have better dps (in a support role) that Reaper in dps role. In order for Reaper to be as desirable without touching its dps, you would need to give them _more_ support than warrior has (and warriors are already OP in that department). And i have noticed that you have complained earlier against that solution as well. All those things that you say would make reaper impossible to fix apply maybe to 1% of the raid groups. Those that are all about squeezing 200% effectiveness out of everything. For a majority of raiders just being "good enough" is fine. Especially for PUGs, that generally do not have the patience to wait long enough sifting through all comers to pick a perfect class for each spot. Unfortunately, Necros currently are (and have been in the past) so below the rest of the pack, that they often _aren't_ considered to be good enough. Haven't been for a very long time. And a simple dps increase _would_ fix that. Yes, you could also try to rework whole class, changing completely its identity, but that would require a kittenton more effort than just a few simple dps adjustments. And the end result would still be the same - to fix the situation, the class would still need a significant boost to dps, or getting some borderline OP amount of support, or a mix of both, And yet you seem to think that a small fix is a worse (and less probable) solution than a massive class redesign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anchoku.8142 Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 Well, lots of comments above but Necro still has the same problem: with the exception of heal-Scourge, Necro does not bring buffs. It brings debuffs, which are less valuable against a boss being debuffed by many players. Buffing many allies has more value. Total Value = total damage output + value of buffs and heals or barrier + value of debuffs + clutch saves A lot of Necro builds do not score well because one of these pseudo-math terms is near zero and another is limited by Unshakable / Defiance, stack caps and add-on mob numbers. Core design still haunts Necro despite many improvements over the years. Necro's debuff capability has always been valued in WvW and PvP but not in PvE while it's buffs are very limited. Reaper fixed the no-power-cleave problem. Scourge gives one way to fix the no-buffs problem but only for a narrow build and case use. At least it is something some groups do find valuable. Core is still selfish, though, and that makes damage output more important in the equation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > You should probably ask yourself why the way you think the game works is not the way it actually works. > > > > > > I don't get what you are implying here ... I'm not imagining things when I see people getting teams and being successful with necros ... pretty sure of that. That's not me THINKING it works, that's me SEEING it works. > > > > > You mean all the cases where you said something is impossible, is never gonna happen, or never happened, to be immediately countered with actual, easy to find, in-game examples (which you keep pretending not to notice) never happened. Right. > > > > > > > > Again ... if you have a point, just say it ... my beliefs are based on what ANYONE can observe happening in the game, not something I've contrived to justify something I want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > ... and we STILL don't have DPS meta balancing ... > > > > > > > > > So? that something has always been broken does not mean we should not strive to get it fixed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not arguing it shouldn't be fixed. I'm arguing that fixing with DPS doesn't make sense. > > > > > > > The only other way would be to give reaper a ton of support. > > > > > > > > > > > > No it's not the only way ... Anet can decide to do whatever they want to any of the specs Necro has. Don't pretend there aren't paths forward on class changes to justify DPS as the best way to go. That's about as contrived as it gets. > > > > > > > > > > Necro DPS builds are currently lacking in both DPS and support. > > > > > > > > I won't debate that because 'lacking' means there is something to compare it to and I'm doubtful we will agree with what that is. > > > > > > > > What I do know is true is that DPS isn't not going to make Necro's meta unless they get top spot. Again ... why do people want a warrior in their team? You don't answer that question because you don't want that same kind of a solution for Necro's to be meta. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can you maybe stop making every thing bad that says buff necro? > > > > Listen, I've made my points to why I don't think DPS is a good path to making Necros desirable in PUG Meta teams. If you don't want to address the points I've made and just make blanket generalizations that I hate necro buffs, we don't have much to talk about because it's not true. > > You didn't read my whole post did you? > Or maybe I still didn't make my point clear enough: it's not only about buffing necro's dps. Buffing dps is just the easiest way to do it. ... and the least effective and the most volatile. I'm not even convinced that it's the easiest ... do you know Anet's process? I don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > You didn't read my whole post did you? > > Or maybe I still didn't make my point clear enough: it's not only about buffing necro's dps. Buffing dps is just the easiest way to do it. > > ... and the least effective and the most volatile. I'm not even convinced that it's the easiest ... do you know Anet's process? I don't. There's only one thing that might be more effective. Giving necro so high tier of support that it would be desirable on its basis alone. Doing this using non-unique support would require redoing Necromancer as a whole, and definitely would not be easy. You could alternatively try to use some unique boon. That would require less work (you would not need to redo whole class, for one). Seems simple, but it isn't. The support level you'd need to give Necro would need to be really high. It would need either to replace one of the current support spots, or create a new one. Even the first case runs the danger of creating so much unpredictable consequences devs might need a ton of time to deal with the fallout. Getting a new, separate slot would be even worse, and not only for balance reasons. We don't need anything that would lock the meta down more than it already is, and narrow the class choices groups might be able to make. It's already bad that, say, banner warrior is a fixture that always takes a slot (and i am saying this as a banner warrior main) - we don't need any new examples of this. So, while buffing up the (currently almost nonexistent) Necro support through the roof migt indeed be most effective solution, it is also a very bad solution. And far more volatile than just tweaking dps. Any other road to helping necro includes raising its dps. The less support you give to Necro, the more dps increase you need. And of the two, giving necro anything above very basic (ane easy to ignore) levels of support _would_ require more work, and has a potential of causing more trouble down the road than simply sticking to dps buffing. If you disagree, please give some _specific_ ideas of what might be better. Because so far you only claim those exist, but you don't even seem to have any idea how they might look like. I mean, a solution that does not exist will always be better than one that does. Too bad a solution like that can't ever be used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funky.4861 Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 How about something like: Chains of Power: when you exit shroud, tether yourself to up to 5 allies. Add half of your damage to theirs for 5 seconds. This replaces that dodgy 'heal when you exit shroud' trait in blood magic. Half damage might be too much, but i don't think so at the minute ^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimon.7840 Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > You should probably ask yourself why the way you think the game works is not the way it actually works. > > > > > > > I don't get what you are implying here ... I'm not imagining things when I see people getting teams and being successful with necros ... pretty sure of that. That's not me THINKING it works, that's me SEEING it works. > > > > > > You mean all the cases where you said something is impossible, is never gonna happen, or never happened, to be immediately countered with actual, easy to find, in-game examples (which you keep pretending not to notice) never happened. Right. > > > > > > > > > > Again ... if you have a point, just say it ... my beliefs are based on what ANYONE can observe happening in the game, not something I've contrived to justify something I want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > ... and we STILL don't have DPS meta balancing ... > > > > > > > > > > So? that something has always been broken does not mean we should not strive to get it fixed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not arguing it shouldn't be fixed. I'm arguing that fixing with DPS doesn't make sense. > > > > > > > > The only other way would be to give reaper a ton of support. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it's not the only way ... Anet can decide to do whatever they want to any of the specs Necro has. Don't pretend there aren't paths forward on class changes to justify DPS as the best way to go. That's about as contrived as it gets. > > > > > > > > > > > > Necro DPS builds are currently lacking in both DPS and support. > > > > > > > > > > I won't debate that because 'lacking' means there is something to compare it to and I'm doubtful we will agree with what that is. > > > > > > > > > > What I do know is true is that DPS isn't not going to make Necro's meta unless they get top spot. Again ... why do people want a warrior in their team? You don't answer that question because you don't want that same kind of a solution for Necro's to be meta. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can you maybe stop making every thing bad that says buff necro? > > > > > > Listen, I've made my points to why I don't think DPS is a good path to making Necros desirable in PUG Meta teams. If you don't want to address the points I've made and just make blanket generalizations that I hate necro buffs, we don't have much to talk about because it's not true. > > > > You didn't read my whole post did you? > > Or maybe I still didn't make my point clear enough: it's not only about buffing necro's dps. Buffing dps is just the easiest way to do it. > > ... and the least effective and the most volatile. I'm not even convinced that it's the easiest ... do you know Anet's process? I don't. > Maybe. And yes I don't know, but I think adjusting some numbers is much easier than implementing something new. One of these things is adjusting numbers in already existing code. While the other is having to create something completely new. I'm curious. What exactly would you do. I don't remember you giving an specific idea of how to buff necro to make it desireable. Maybe I just didn't see it. So would you kindly share your idea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimon.7840 Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 > @"Funky.4861" said: > How about something like: > Chains of Power: when you exit shroud, tether yourself to up to 5 allies. Add half of your damage to theirs for 5 seconds. > > This replaces that dodgy 'heal when you exit shroud' trait in blood magic. Half damage might be too much, but i don't think so at the minute ^^ That might be hard to implement as well as super overpowered in pvp modes. Even if it's just 10% in pve and 2% in pvp modes, it might still be too strong creating a power creep scenario like we had before the big balance in february Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 > @"Funky.4861" said: > How about something like: > Chains of Power: when you exit shroud, tether yourself to up to 5 allies. Add half of your damage to theirs for 5 seconds. > > This replaces that dodgy 'heal when you exit shroud' trait in blood magic. Half damage might be too much, but i don't think so at the minute ^^ See my comments earlier about giving Reaper more support. Basically, either it would be so weak that nobody would bother to take Reaper just for it, or it would be good enough to justify dropping a dps slot for this. First case does not help. Second is something we _do not_ want to happen. Balancing support is much harder than balancing dps, especially when introducing unique buffs. It's much harder to hit a sweet spot where support is useful, but not to the point where it would become obligatory (or overpowered). It's also much easier to break something else with it. Completely aside, this "buff" isn't really a group buff at all. The way it's written, it's basically a "do +50% damage for each ally in range, up to +250%, for 5 seconds after exiting shroud" self-boost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funky.4861 Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 It won't be hard to implement; druid already has this but with healing. Also, the damage boost is not to yourself; the necro will gain no personal damage increase from this, but will boost party dps, like a slightly-shifted banner warrior. Question: why is dropping a dps slot for this bad? I'm reading what you say as dps slot=class in a dps role, as opposed to a dps trait. It's basically a reworked death shroud #5 which targets allies and copies x% of your dps to them. Or a reworked epidemic. I don't see many other people coming up with ideas; i prefer to work towards a solution instead of bemoaning the state of affairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkpile.7439 Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 Full trailblazer core necro is good. I don't have dps meter, but i kill everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > You should probably ask yourself why the way you think the game works is not the way it actually works. > > > > > > > > I don't get what you are implying here ... I'm not imagining things when I see people getting teams and being successful with necros ... pretty sure of that. That's not me THINKING it works, that's me SEEING it works. > > > > > > > You mean all the cases where you said something is impossible, is never gonna happen, or never happened, to be immediately countered with actual, easy to find, in-game examples (which you keep pretending not to notice) never happened. Right. > > > > > > > > > > > > Again ... if you have a point, just say it ... my beliefs are based on what ANYONE can observe happening in the game, not something I've contrived to justify something I want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > ... and we STILL don't have DPS meta balancing ... > > > > > > > > > > > So? that something has always been broken does not mean we should not strive to get it fixed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not arguing it shouldn't be fixed. I'm arguing that fixing with DPS doesn't make sense. > > > > > > > > > The only other way would be to give reaper a ton of support. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it's not the only way ... Anet can decide to do whatever they want to any of the specs Necro has. Don't pretend there aren't paths forward on class changes to justify DPS as the best way to go. That's about as contrived as it gets. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Necro DPS builds are currently lacking in both DPS and support. > > > > > > > > > > > > I won't debate that because 'lacking' means there is something to compare it to and I'm doubtful we will agree with what that is. > > > > > > > > > > > > What I do know is true is that DPS isn't not going to make Necro's meta unless they get top spot. Again ... why do people want a warrior in their team? You don't answer that question because you don't want that same kind of a solution for Necro's to be meta. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can you maybe stop making every thing bad that says buff necro? > > > > > > > > Listen, I've made my points to why I don't think DPS is a good path to making Necros desirable in PUG Meta teams. If you don't want to address the points I've made and just make blanket generalizations that I hate necro buffs, we don't have much to talk about because it's not true. > > > > > > You didn't read my whole post did you? > > > Or maybe I still didn't make my point clear enough: it's not only about buffing necro's dps. Buffing dps is just the easiest way to do it. > > > > ... and the least effective and the most volatile. I'm not even convinced that it's the easiest ... do you know Anet's process? I don't. > > > > Maybe. And yes I don't know, but I think adjusting some numbers is much easier than implementing something new. > One of these things is adjusting numbers in already existing code. While the other is having to create something completely new. > > I'm curious. What exactly would you do. I don't remember you giving an specific idea of how to buff necro to make it desireable. > Maybe I just didn't see it. > So would you kindly share your idea? Well, to be fair "buff DPS" is not a specific idea either, so let's not pretend that whatever my ideas are ... or are not ... is contingent on buff DPS being some great idea just because people don't put the effort in. It's not a competition to the best solution but we do have to be mindful that the ideas have to be reasonable and inline with how Anet regards the class. Frankly, I don't think the class will ever get away from it's fundamental theme of "Shroud = sustain". I had hope that Scourge would be a departure, but even in that spec, Anet implemented barriers and linked lots of them to F skills in some direct and also some subtle ways ... in otherwords, I think no matter WHAT we suggest, we simply have to acknowledge that this is the way Anet wants necro to work. That's why team-buffing seems more plausible in almost every case for Necro and if Shroud is linked to sustain in every spec like it has been, I see two paths: 1. Extend 'sustain' to the team in a similar manner through LF use (not Shroud) 2. Cross your fingers and hope the NEXT spec is a departure from the Shroud = sustain idea (i'm not hopeful) I won't speculate on #2 ... that could be ANYTHING and there isn't any value in guessing a whole spec just to be 'meta-worthy' through DPS ... if Anet wanted a spec to be that, we would have that already IMO. Extending sustain to the team AND adhering to the necro theme ... heals/heal buffs on kills, likely through a trait is a concept that does this. I know no one will like that idea so I never bothered to put the effort into thinking much more about that. I don't expect a positive response to that now either because to be honest, necro did have a strong and desirable ability that everyone overlooked in the past ... REZZING. The truth is that if it's not a direct DPS buff or strong offensive team buff, I know the reception to it will be narrowminded. Basically, what's the point of suggesting anything but these DPS-focused things if it's just going to be argument-fodder to speculate that DPS is the better option? I will give you the benefit of the doubt in this case. Maybe we could see a offensive team buff on kills ... but that still makes necro a hard sell for boss-centric content IMO .. not much point in buffing the team AFTER a boss is dead is there? Maybe we could see a offensive team buff proc on LF application or under-used (I'm guessing here) corruption skills ... but that's not going to make reaper much more effective than it is now will it? Not 20% more. The challenge here (for me at least) is to maintain theme ... and I don't need to tell you how important I see Anet maintaining and adhere to class theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimon.7840 Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > > You should probably ask yourself why the way you think the game works is not the way it actually works. > > > > > > > > > I don't get what you are implying here ... I'm not imagining things when I see people getting teams and being successful with necros ... pretty sure of that. That's not me THINKING it works, that's me SEEING it works. > > > > > > > > You mean all the cases where you said something is impossible, is never gonna happen, or never happened, to be immediately countered with actual, easy to find, in-game examples (which you keep pretending not to notice) never happened. Right. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again ... if you have a point, just say it ... my beliefs are based on what ANYONE can observe happening in the game, not something I've contrived to justify something I want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > ... and we STILL don't have DPS meta balancing ... > > > > > > > > > > > > So? that something has always been broken does not mean we should not strive to get it fixed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not arguing it shouldn't be fixed. I'm arguing that fixing with DPS doesn't make sense. > > > > > > > > > > The only other way would be to give reaper a ton of support. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it's not the only way ... Anet can decide to do whatever they want to any of the specs Necro has. Don't pretend there aren't paths forward on class changes to justify DPS as the best way to go. That's about as contrived as it gets. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Necro DPS builds are currently lacking in both DPS and support. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I won't debate that because 'lacking' means there is something to compare it to and I'm doubtful we will agree with what that is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What I do know is true is that DPS isn't not going to make Necro's meta unless they get top spot. Again ... why do people want a warrior in their team? You don't answer that question because you don't want that same kind of a solution for Necro's to be meta. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can you maybe stop making every thing bad that says buff necro? > > > > > > > > > > Listen, I've made my points to why I don't think DPS is a good path to making Necros desirable in PUG Meta teams. If you don't want to address the points I've made and just make blanket generalizations that I hate necro buffs, we don't have much to talk about because it's not true. > > > > > > > > You didn't read my whole post did you? > > > > Or maybe I still didn't make my point clear enough: it's not only about buffing necro's dps. Buffing dps is just the easiest way to do it. > > > > > > ... and the least effective and the most volatile. I'm not even convinced that it's the easiest ... do you know Anet's process? I don't. > > > > > > > Maybe. And yes I don't know, but I think adjusting some numbers is much easier than implementing something new. > > One of these things is adjusting numbers in already existing code. While the other is having to create something completely new. > > > > I'm curious. What exactly would you do. I don't remember you giving an specific idea of how to buff necro to make it desireable. > > Maybe I just didn't see it. > > So would you kindly share your idea? > > Well, to be fair "buff DPS" is not a specific idea either, so let's not pretend that whatever my ideas are ... or are not ... is contingent on buff DPS being some great idea just because people don't put the effort in. It's not a competition to the best solution but we do have to be mindful that the ideas have to be reasonable and inline with how Anet regards the class. > > Frankly, I don't think the class will ever get away from it's fundamental theme of "Shroud = sustain". I had hope that Scourge would be a departure, but even in that spec, Anet implemented barriers and linked lots of them to F skills in some direct and also some subtle ways ... in otherwords, I think no matter WHAT we suggest, we simply have to acknowledge that this is the way Anet wants necro to work. > > That's why team-buffing seems more plausible in almost every case for Necro and if Shroud is linked to sustain in every spec like it has been, I see two paths: > > 1. Extend 'sustain' to the team in a similar manner through LF use (not Shroud) Well that already exists. It's called scourge. But extra sustain isn't needed in a lot of cases, cause that's the healers job. Unless it's some kind of sustain, that a healer can't provide (for example blocks) > 2. Cross your fingers and hope the NEXT spec is a departure from the Shroud = sustain idea (i'm not hopeful) Yeah I'm really hoping for a high single target dps, spec that's really good in duels for PvP modes. But I might be disappointed... > > I won't speculate on #2 ... that could be ANYTHING and there isn't any value in guessing a whole spec just to be 'meta-worthy' through DPS ... if Anet wanted a spec to be that, we would have that already IMO. > > Extending sustain to the team AND adhering to the necro theme ... heals/heal buffs on kills, likely through a trait is a concept that does this. I know no one will like that idea so I never bothered to put the effort into thinking much more about that. I don't expect a positive response to that now either because to be honest, necro did have a strong and desirable ability that everyone overlooked in the past ... REZZING. The truth is that if it's not a direct DPS buff or strong offensive team buff, I know the reception to it will be narrowminded. Basically, what's the point of suggesting anything but these DPS-focused things if it's just going to be argument-fodder to speculate that DPS is the better option? I will give you the benefit of the doubt in this case. > > Maybe we could see a offensive team buff on kills ... but that still makes necro a hard sell for boss-centric content IMO .. not much point in buffing the team AFTER a boss is dead is there? Well this could work on some bosses. Where adds give experience. But if thats worth? That wouldn't be a lot of bosses. But I would be ok with that. That would make necro kinda "mandatory" for some bosses, but not for all of them (if the buff it gives is worth it). > Maybe we could see a offensive team buff proc on LF application or under-used (I'm guessing here) corruption skills ... but that's not going to make reaper much more effective than it is now will it? Not 20% more. > The challenge here (for me at least) is to maintain theme ... and I don't need to tell you how important I see Anet maintaining and adhere to class theme. Yeah well. There's a lot you could do with theme. For example introduce a buff from well of darkness, so it doesn't just blind enemies but also gives dark aura to Allies. Then change the trait that makes blinds inflict chill: dark auras you give to Allies, or Allies gain by comboing with your dark fields increase their damage by a certain percentage (or just increase base stats? Like +150power+150condition damage) for the duration of the aura. Wouldn't this be a pretty good necro theme? I just came up with this so there might be a lot of things I didn't think of. But just as an idea... They introduced dark aura but not a single clas makes use of it, which I think is pretty sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 > @"Funky.4861" said: > It won't be hard to implement; druid already has this but with healing. > > Also, the damage boost is not to yourself; the necro will gain no personal damage increase from this, but will boost party dps, like a slightly-shifted banner warrior. > > Question: why is dropping a dps slot for this bad? I'm reading what you say as dps slot=class in a dps role, as opposed to a dps trait. > > It's basically a reworked death shroud #5 which targets allies and copies x% of your dps to them. Or a reworked epidemic. > > I don't see many other people coming up with ideas; i prefer to work towards a solution instead of bemoaning the state of affairs. Two issues: - It give the necromancer a unique buff which give him a "mandatory" spot instead of making it competitive. - The GW2 necromancer's design don't revolve around the idea of "buffing other" (even if it's non-sense granted that a necromancer is supposed to raise undead to find strength in number). Personally I think that what's needed is a shift in the purpose of the shroud. Since it's defensive in nature, have it being a dedicated "tank stance" dealing tank amount of damage and redirect traits effects that improve the shroud damage in such a way that this traits make you sacrifice all remaining life force while leaving shroud to grant you 10 second buffs bestowing those effect to the out-of-shroud stance. Since current shroud stance and out-of-shroud stance have similar amount of damage potential, this can only increase the out-of-shroud stance dps potential and thus increase the necromancer dps potential as a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funky.4861 Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 @"Dadnir.5038" 1) It's not mandatory, it's an option like banner warrior/ranger spirits. 2). It's true that necros have few party buffs, but unlike similar classes they bring nothing desirable to compensate. There are necro builds which can upkeep perm might and fury whilst pumping out barriers and group heals (just check out Lady Kitty's or Teapots' youtube channel) so the capability IS there. I like your idea, though nerfing shroud damage turns you into the carry-class (as most of reaper dps comes from being in shroud and managing the soul barbs buff). Depending on the desired outcome (a simple dps increase to be competitive with mid-top tier dps specs or wanting a spot in raids/fracs/whatever) we have to bear in mind that necro is the way it is by design. Changing the encounter/environment to play to necros' strengths is, in my opinion, a backwards way to go about giving necro a chance at a spot in squads/parties; changing the necro to work better in parties/squads is more intuitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anchoku.8142 Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 I put 5 seconds of thought into this so how about.. "Soul Comprehension provides 100 power and 150 condition damage to allies affected by Vampyric Presence. This effect is capped at 3 stacks." Edit: Here is another option. "While in shroud, boon timers for up to 5 allies having Vampyric Presence within a 240 radius expire 20% slower. This effect does not stack." (It is difficult to fix core Necro PvE without new mechanic. :-/) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funky.4861 Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 I like it Anchoku, but maybe a little stronk ^^ How about something which copies the traits which buff shroud when entering/exiting to 5 allies, even if it was only half of their values? This wouldn't work with unholy martyr, but no-one takes that in pve anyway. Similarly, unholy sanctuary would only give the health regen. It also wouldn't affect traits which buff shroud skills, only the transform itself. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death_Shroud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anchoku.8142 Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 > @"Funky.4861" said: > How about something which copies the traits which buff shroud when entering/exiting to 5 allies, even if it was only half of their values? This wouldn't work with unholy martyr, but no-one takes that in pve anyway. Similarly, unholy sanctuary would only give the health regen. It also wouldn't affect traits which buff shroud skills, only the transform itself. That will work as well and shows how ridiculously easy it is to come up with ideas that keep Necro dps the same or drive it lower by forcing Necro to use low-dps builds while making the profession just a bit more desirable for end-game group PvE. The problem is in changing a mechanic, which takes more effort than just tweaking a few numbers on existing mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 > @"Anchoku.8142" said: > I put 5 seconds of thought into this so how about.. > > "Soul Comprehension provides 100 power and 150 condition damage to allies affected by Vampyric Presence. This effect is capped at 3 stacks." > > Edit: Here is another option. > "While in shroud, boon timers for up to 5 allies having Vampyric Presence within a 240 radius expire 20% slower. This effect does not stack." > > (It is difficult to fix core Necro PvE without new mechanic. :-/) I doubt forcing the player to take a major trait in Blood Magic in order to make another trait work is a good idea. We already are stuck with cluncky minion traits that only work if you care to equip some minion utility, I don't think we need something even clunckier. Personally I'd go with: - _Unholy sanctuary:_ Carapace grant 20 point of vitality instead of 20 point of toughness. Allies close to you gain carapace whenever you gain carapace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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