Revenant Needs A Nerf

[ollbirtan.2915]

> @"Buran.3796" said:

> > @"xWiroo.3841" said:

> > rev does too many things and too well, its just stupid the level of negation of some people. Ive been pvping for a while, and its dominance is ridiculous.

>

> CRev is slow moving, is not great for map control in Conquest; are you asking a balance based on a 3 vs 3 deathmatch with no control points in small maps?

>

> Also, won't work: you have CRevs unsing Herald + Corruption + Invocation, but also Herald + Corruption + Retribution, and condi Renegades with different traitlines; most of those builds use some king of weapon combination with mace and axe, but some use sword and shield, others run staff and others longbow. All works, nerfing here and there won't change the things too much. Best way to weak the condi bunker meta is to buff the nerfed direct damage. And since breakstuns were also nerfed and the the cc is so frequent the sooner you boost direct damage the sooner this becames a instagib again. Chose your poison.

 

Clearly you have never played a renegade. If you did, you would know that they can only run SHORTbow, and it's a terribly clunky weapon. You see renegades using it since you have a defensive weapon - staff., and you need an offensive semi range weapon - so it's either hammer (lol) or shortbow.

[Fueki.4753]

> @"MTC.9536" said:

> 1. 15 out of the top20 players are Revenant mains for the last season.

> 2. The April monthly was literally won by 3 Revenants.

> 3. Every top team plays 1-2 Revs as an absolute must.

 

Balance should be done in favour of as many players as possible.

If Revenant is fine for the average (where to vast majority is at), why should it matter if some outliers exploit few broken builds?

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > @"MTC.9536" said:

> > 1. 15 out of the top20 players are Revenant mains for the last season.

> > 2. The April monthly was literally won by 3 Revenants.

> > 3. Every top team plays 1-2 Revs as an absolute must.

>

> Balance should be done in favour of as many players as possible.

> If Revenant is fine for the average (where to vast majority is at), why should it matter if some outliers exploit few broken builds?

 

im not sure if you are being sarcastic or not lol

[Buran.3796]

> @"ollbirtan.2915" said:

 

> Clearly you have never played a renegade. If you did, you would know that they can only run SHORTbow, and it's a terribly clunky weapon. You see renegades using it since you have a defensive weapon - staff., and you need an offensive semi range weapon - so it's either hammer (lol) or shortbow.

 

Was a lapsus, my mistake. I have two Revs, they sum up over 1800 hours, and over 3K PvP matches; I'm well aware that the Renegade uses shortbow (a mediocre PvP weapon, I agree).

[Fueki.4753]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > > @"MTC.9536" said:

> > > 1. 15 out of the top20 players are Revenant mains for the last season.

> > > 2. The April monthly was literally won by 3 Revenants.

> > > 3. Every top team plays 1-2 Revs as an absolute must.

> >

> > Balance should be done in favour of as many players as possible.

> > If Revenant is fine for the average (where to vast majority is at), why should it matter if some outliers exploit few broken builds?

>

> im not sure if you are being sarcastic or not lol

 

In case you missed the point:

Balance should revolve around the vast majority, **not** around the top end or bottom end outliers.

If Arenanet were to balance the top end, it'd ruin the professions for the vast majority, while the top end outliers just find the next over-performing thing to exploit.

[Shiyo.3578]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> > @"Clownmug.8357" said:

> > You pvpers are so cute. I can't even imagine condi revs without dire/trailblazer stats and access to tormenting runes being a threat.

>

> They are not. They just don’t die. SPvP is bunker then AOE and CC spam. Condi rev do all these things well. And no power build deals enough damage to possibly burst someone down.

>

> And wither you believe it or not, it clearly is the case based on last season results and ATs.

>

> Honestly, I do t think they need a nerf. There is tons of stuff that needs buffs. Damage is way too low.

 

Mirage does far more than enough damage to burst someone down.

 

 

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > > > @"MTC.9536" said:

> > > > 1. 15 out of the top20 players are Revenant mains for the last season.

> > > > 2. The April monthly was literally won by 3 Revenants.

> > > > 3. Every top team plays 1-2 Revs as an absolute must.

> > >

> > > Balance should be done in favour of as many players as possible.

> > > If Revenant is fine for the average (where to vast majority is at), why should it matter if some outliers exploit few broken builds?

> >

> > im not sure if you are being sarcastic or not lol

>

> In case you missed the point:

> Balance should revolve around the vast majority, **not** around the top end or bottom end outliers.

> If Arenanet were to balance the top end, it'd ruin the professions for the vast majority, while the top end outliers just find the next over-performing thing to exploit.

 

no it should not, it should be balanced around both, if something is broken in high end it needs to be fixed.

it has gotten to the point where clueless people at the class can wipe the floor with it, in fact OP classes are VERY bad for the game, it makes players stagnate and not improve, constant nerfs to mesmers made me MUCH better player

[Shiyo.3578]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> > @"Clownmug.8357" said:

> > You pvpers are so cute. I can't even imagine condi revs without dire/trailblazer stats and access to tormenting runes being a threat.

>

> They are not. They just don’t die. SPvP is bunker then AOE and CC spam. Condi rev do all these things well. And no power build deals enough damage to possibly burst someone down.

>

> And wither you believe it or not, it clearly is the case based on last season results and ATs.

>

> Honestly, I do t think they need a nerf. There is tons of stuff that needs buffs. Damage is way too low.

 

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > @"MTC.9536" said:

> > 1. 15 out of the top20 players are Revenant mains for the last season.

> > 2. The April monthly was literally won by 3 Revenants.

> > 3. Every top team plays 1-2 Revs as an absolute must.

>

> Balance should be done in favour of as many players as possible.

> If Revenant is fine for the average (where to vast majority is at), why should it matter if some outliers exploit few broken builds?

Rev is very strong at all skill levels, though. Especially since you need to play stare at buff bar simulator to not full heal revs, which is what happens to them at the lower skill levels. Power rev might not be as powerful at all skill levels but condi rev can be played relatively well by someone who just freshly installed GW2 10 minutes ago and just mashes all their buttons - not that any build takes much skill since HoT, but it's skill ceiling is by far one of the lowest to be able to contribute.

 

They really need to make glint heal have a gigantic glowly bubble like radiance aura around the character and add some other huge glaring animations to their other stuff

 

This isn't even getting into renegade which seems to not take much, if any damage from conditions at all while having incredible(the most?) sustain via mad king runes and tons of area denial. If a renegade is alive your team will struggle to res teammates.

[Agramon.4278]

A simple question to you all. If you think revenant so broken why you not playing with it? Why always necromancers and guardians complaining about it? Let me tell you a bitter sweet truth you are not talented to play with a different class. Not even "broken" revenant. Thief always been op mesmer either, in past warrior and elementalist too and now revenant. If they gonna kill revenant some other class poped up with new "broken" title.

 

I suggest L2P, if you think x class is op go try, play, learn, investigate get some experience with it then talk.

[Fueki.4753]

Revenant extremely weak to conditions and CC, both of which are the **strongest** mechanics since February.

Revenants can easily be stun-locked and killed in _seconds._

 

When asking for nerfs, people need to look at much more than just numbers output.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> Revenant extremely weak to conditions and CC, both of which are the **strongest** mechanics since February.

> Revenants can easily be stun-locked and killed in _seconds._

>

> When asking for nerfs, people need to look at much more than just numbers output.

 

rev weak to cc? are we talking about the same class?

the one that can turn all the condi into healing with 30s cd uninterruptable heal? that can run with perma resist?

[Fueki.4753]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > Revenant extremely weak to conditions and CC, both of which are the **strongest** mechanics since February.

> > Revenants can easily be stun-locked and killed in _seconds._

> >

> > When asking for nerfs, people need to look at much more than just numbers output.

>

> rev weak to cc? are we talking about the same class?

> the one that can turn all the condi into healing with 30s cd uninterruptable heal? that can run with perma resist?

I certainly haven't seen anything close to permanent resistance.

[Shiyo.3578]

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> Revenant extremely weak to conditions and CC, both of which are the **strongest** mechanics since February.

> Revenants can easily be stun-locked and killed in _seconds._

>

> When asking for nerfs, people need to look at much more than just numbers output.

 

Condi rev has 100% uptime on resistance and thus is immune to CC and conditions.

Renegade has so much DR vs conditions that it's nearly immune to them as well.

 

Every class can die in a stunlock.

[ollbirtan.2915]

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > Revenant extremely weak to conditions and CC, both of which are the **strongest** mechanics since February.

> > Revenants can easily be stun-locked and killed in _seconds._

> >

> > When asking for nerfs, people need to look at much more than just numbers output.

>

> Condi rev has 100% uptime on resistance and thus is immune to CC and conditions.

> Renegade has so much DR vs conditions that it's nearly immune to them as well.

>

> Every class can die in a stunlock.

 

Kindly enlighten us here how you reach 100% resistance uptime on a condi Rev, so we can also 'abuse' this so-called 'OP' class. A video / ARCdps log would be very helpful.

As for Renegade, you do realise that you have to build around being a condi counter? This gimps you into a 'sitting duck' one-trick class that is camping side node until any class with decent power damage and CC comes to wipe the floor with you and your or so 'OP' summons.

[Kulvar.1239]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > Revenant extremely weak to conditions and CC, both of which are the **strongest** mechanics since February.

> > Revenants can easily be stun-locked and killed in _seconds._

> >

> > When asking for nerfs, people need to look at much more than just numbers output.

>

> rev weak to cc? are we talking about the same class?

> the one that can turn all the condi into healing with 30s cd uninterruptable heal? that can run with perma resist?

 

Having perma resist consume almost all its energy.

Also : Necro boon corrupt and Spellbreaker ruins it.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Kulvar.1239" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > > Revenant extremely weak to conditions and CC, both of which are the **strongest** mechanics since February.

> > > Revenants can easily be stun-locked and killed in _seconds._

> > >

> > > When asking for nerfs, people need to look at much more than just numbers output.

> >

> > rev weak to cc? are we talking about the same class?

> > the one that can turn all the condi into healing with 30s cd uninterruptable heal? that can run with perma resist?

>

> Having perma resist consume almost all its energy.

> Also : Necro boon corrupt and Spellbreaker ruins it.

 

ah so you can sometimes take damage if enemy has necro, cool.

[frareanselm.1925]

I think its a profession that requires skill to master so they're ok as they are. Its not like a necro, that even a child can play it smashing buttons.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

> @"MTC.9536" said:

> I am a long-term GW2 veteran since beta that played for BooN and TFL back in the days. I have seen a lot: Hambow Warrior, D/D Celestial Ele and other things that were barely counterable.

> I came back to the game a month ago and never have I seen a build more complete and holistic than Condition Revenant. It offers CCs, Condition Immunity, Blocks, Boons, Sustain while doing damage with the most broken condition in the game that shouldn't exist in the first place: Torment. A game where you have to move punishes movement...let that sink in.

>

> Two patches, still no nerfs to Revenant. Developers! This needs to change.

>

> Also: I am nobody that dies to a class once and complains it is too strong. I love the game and want it to be better. I am a main Necro and when it was clearly too strong with Signet Of Spite back in the days I called for a nerf too; just as a reference for my objectivity.

>

> 1. 15 out of the top20 players are Revenant mains for the last season.

> 2. The April monthly was literally won by 3 Revenants.

> 3. Every top team plays 1-2 Revs as an absolute must.

>

> What are your thoughts? Please upvote this and comment so the developers see it.

>

 

Let me point out something important here before people start using "It's balanced in Conquest" as a defense for Condition Mallyx:

 

Mallyx is balanced in Conquest. In Conquest, sheer mobility and ability to out-rotate/position for favorable engagement outcome is just as important as attribute tied statistics or combat mechanics. So in Conquest, the Condi Herald is generally only a mid-grade mobility spec and as such it gets out-rotated by many other classes. This also means that things with 1500 range can out kite the Condi Herald in the larger maps that have more distinctive environmental advantages. In other words, Condi Herald has weaknesses when it comes to Conquest dynamic. And due to this, we see more Power Shiro in play because it can keep up in rotations while teleporting through LOS for gank potential vs. things like Thieves & Mesmers & Rangers, which allows it the strongest capability to secure kills out of any spec in the game.

 

However in 2v2s & 3v3s where nodes are not an objective, maps are tiny with nowhere to run, and there are no safe places to lead in with ranged bursting, there is no reason to run Power Shiro because the mobility isn't needed nor can it really be utilized. These are all the same reasons why players don't run Thieves & Mesmers & Rangers in 2v2 3v3, because the Auric/Asuran/Hall maps do not provide opportunities to utilize mobility or ranged played. Within the dynamic of 2v2 3v3, the attribute tied statistical advantages that slow powerful specs have, become broken and exploitable. Condi Herald just so happens to be the biggest attribute-tied juggernaut that we have right now.

 

So what we're looking at here is a difference between the two game modes and how they are played. Power Shiro is great in Conquest, not so great in 2v2 3v3. Condi Herald is average in Conquest but too strong in 2v2 3v3. But even while pointing this out, it should be noted that Revenant in general does indeed have access to two builds that allow it to be arguably sitting in the #1 MVP position in both game modes. Power Shiro is usually the most important spec to have in a Conquest team, and Condition Mallyx is definitely the most dominant 2v2 3v3 spec right now, no question about that.

 

People are going to come into this thread and defend Revenant, but no matter how you look at this, both Power Shiro and Condition Mallyx are overperforming within this current patching. Without going into too much details, here are the specific areas that I feel are problematic:

 

1. Power Shiro has too much teleport potential. Its ability to bounce around and coordinate instant target shift bursting is too strong during higher tiered coordinated play. The frequency & range of this teleport potential needs to be cut.

2. Condition Mallyx has way too strong of attribute tied statistics. Either its damage needs to go down a bit, or it needs a slash to its sustain, maybe both.

 

 

 

 

[Kulvar.1239]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Kulvar.1239" said:

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > > > Revenant extremely weak to conditions and CC, both of which are the **strongest** mechanics since February.

> > > > Revenants can easily be stun-locked and killed in _seconds._

> > > >

> > > > When asking for nerfs, people need to look at much more than just numbers output.

> > >

> > > rev weak to cc? are we talking about the same class?

> > > the one that can turn all the condi into healing with 30s cd uninterruptable heal? that can run with perma resist?

> >

> > Having perma resist consume almost all its energy.

> > Also : Necro boon corrupt and Spellbreaker ruins it.

>

> ah so you can sometimes take damage if enemy has necro, cool.

 

Not just Necromancer, but it's one of the most effective class at that job. Spellbreaker is also quite good.

You could use a counter Mallyx Rev, but then it would have no energy left to maintain it's own Resistance permanently.

Mesmer & Thief can dispel/steal boons, but less reliably and less often than those above.

Sigil of Revocation is available to everyone.

 

For the Rev to maintain permanent Resistance, he have to be surrounded by at least 3 teammates with conditions on them at all time, pick 3 non-DPS traits in 2 skill lines, and consumes 105 energy, leaving it with 20 energy total for other use in Mallyx. That's 42% of it's energy generated in 20s out of a perfect energy management, without a perfect energy management or without 1 of the trait, that's 51.22% of it's energy generated in 21s.

 

As Pain Absorption is also its stunbreak, you can play around the Rev by stunning him at the worst time for him.

If the Rev is alone, he won't have permanent Resistance.

If the Rev is using all its energy to maintain Resistance, it can't really do anything else. If you see a Rev using any other skill from Mallyx, it means he won't have permanent Resistance.

If the whole opposing team is grouped together, you have 2 points to capture for free (with 1 likely to be yours already).

Immediately after switching out of Mallyx, it'll be unable to get Resistance back for 10 whole seconds. If you delete its Resistance at this moment, it would just have been 70 energy points wasted.

 

There's so many options at your disposal, you don't have to stack them all to get the edge in the fight.

Truly, the issue is from the unwillingness to adapt to the opponent which is the basics of a winning strategy.

[Falan.1839]

OP has it right, there are tons of variations of Rev that are all very strong, (Core, Herald, Renegade), almost every stance is viable (with the slight exception of Ventari possibly) and you almost get a strong build. To make things worse, the Class has always stacked very well with each other, so the more Revs you stack, the stronger your teamfight gets basically.

 

With so many strong variants of Rev existing, this unfortunately will not be an easy fix, since just hitting one or two key mechanics probably won't cut it.

[Leonidrex.5649]

I will give you food for thought people.

In a poorly balanced games, if some class,hero,race,nation etc has MANY different good options/builds that are all viable.

It means they are broken.

why? if everything works you dont even have to minmax to get the best outcome.

necro/rev is good example.

for necro example people complained that for example autosave trait is OP and the only reason why nec was op... meanwhile I didnt even use the trait and kept healing 500k+ every 2v2 match. Was the other trait better? hmmm propably not I guess, but I didnt have to take the BEST option, since the tools that carry the build are still there be it strong or good trait. what is the issue of necro? all sustain got nerfed by 30%, necro shroud generation did not. and thus necro have too much shroud for how much damage people deal, its all there was to it.

[ollbirtan.2915]

> @"Falan.1839" said:

> OP has it right, there are tons of variations of Rev that are all very strong, (Core, Herald, Renegade), almost every stance is viable (with the slight exception of Ventari possibly) and you almost get a strong build. To make things worse, the Class has always stacked very well with each other, so the more Revs you stack, the stronger your teamfight gets basically.

>

> With so many strong variants of Rev existing, this unfortunately will not be an easy fix, since just hitting one or two key mechanics probably won't cut it.

 

I'm done arguing over Herald, but the fact that you and some others suddenly start calling Renegade OP shows complete ignorance of the EP. Renegade has literally been the only 'garbage' EP since PoF launch. It's current position is still not 'meta'. Renegade managed to 'crawl' closer to being 'meta' only after the 'Big Nerf' patch that rightfully reduced power-creep for all classes. Please, try to at least play the class before posting such ignorant generalisations on the forum. Thanks!

P.S. Been playing Renegade in ranked since PoF launch.

[Clownmug.8357]

> @"ollbirtan.2915" said:

> > @"Falan.1839" said:

> > OP has it right, there are tons of variations of Rev that are all very strong, (Core, Herald, Renegade), almost every stance is viable (with the slight exception of Ventari possibly) and you almost get a strong build. To make things worse, the Class has always stacked very well with each other, so the more Revs you stack, the stronger your teamfight gets basically.

> >

> > With so many strong variants of Rev existing, this unfortunately will not be an easy fix, since just hitting one or two key mechanics probably won't cut it.

>

> I'm done arguing over Herald, but the fact that you and some others suddenly start calling Renegade OP shows complete ignorance of the EP. Renegade has literally been the only 'garbage' EP since PoF launch. It's current position is still not 'meta'. Renegade managed to 'crawl' closer to being 'meta' only after the 'Big Nerf' patch that rightfully reduced power-creep for all classes. Please, try to at least play the class before posting such ignorant generalisations on the forum. Thanks!

> P.S. Been playing Renegade in ranked since PoF launch.

 

I guess something being OP to them means having to deal with it on even footing. Renegade hasn't received any significant changes in the past 3 years so I don't know why else it would suddenly be a problem. Maybe it needs to be emergency disabled like Chaotic Interruption was if I'm understanding typical pvp logic.

[ollbirtan.2915]

@"Clownmug.8357" You are absolutely correct. Renegade received irrelevant buffs and minor trait changes. That's it. Shortbow is still terrible for pvp. Nothing changed - only that the overall damage has gone down. And my guess is some ppl just get triggered when they lose to a Renegade.

The only thing I would tone down for Rene, is the visual clusterkitten that the summons make. They make it hard even for myself to see as a Renegade what is going on around me.

[Kuma.1503]

I feel like this forum mostly consists of the same 10 or so people calling for nerfs and the other 10 or so people saying L2P

 

And then the 5 or so who try to hold constructive conversations.

 

We really need a separate vent forum for posts like these.