Balance with a Sledge Hammer

[Warcry.1596]

> @Jamin.6528 said:

> @"Robert Gee.9246" , I feel like we could fix the PvE dmg side of things by removing the 3 second internal cooldown on Demonic Lore. That would solve the stacking issue, but would create a scenario in which the Scourge would be able to get close to its previous DPS, making it viable and desirable in raids. Some might argue that this would be too strong, but I would point to the existence of condition firebrand (which can provide superior support *and* DPS compared to Scourge) and say otherwise. If the Scourge is not getting a DPS buff to make it competitive in high-end PvE, can we at least get some confirmation if others are getting nerfed to make them more in line with Scourge?

>

 

This shouldn't be the be all, end all for balancing. PvE shouldn't require any balancing. Being unable to join a group just means you need to find/start another group.

 

In a perfect world, every profession has the capability of dealing the same amount of DPS, but realistically it isn't that easy. Necromancer was never meant for that, nor should it ever be. =/

 

The only thing I can really critique about Scourge is the difficulty of life force generation sometimes.

[vicious.5683]

> @"Robert Gee.9246" said:

> > @Lily.1935 said:

> > I'm so beyond upset right now, I can't be objective right now.

> As a developer I don't expect players to be objective. We expect players to be passionate, involved and subjective when it comes to their chosen profession(s). So if you're upset about something, then by all means let us know you are upset. However as developers, _it is_ our job to be objective when it comes to choosing what changes to make (and what bugs to fix). Although even if your criticism is subjective, it's still helpful to give us reasons and context behind your thoughts. ;)

 

Do you really think is healthy for a game that a specific class (necromancer in this case) is completely excluded from raids?

I'm actively not recommending this game to potential players just because I can't trust your balance capabilities. People spend time and money to equip their characters, just to be nerfed into the uselessness two weeks later (or a month in case of Reaper).

Do you really hate us that bad? IF you say you are being objetive about letting necromancers have crap DPS then I can't think otherwise.

[Kam.4092]

Yet another thread where a Dev gets asked actual fair questions, then gets harassed by people. You guys wonder why they don't reply often.

[reukies.6418]

> @"Robert Gee.9246" said:

> > @Lily.1935 said:

> > Now I'm going to criticize the balance team because they, once again, went over board with the necromancer.

> Criticism is a fine thing and it's one of the reason these forums exist. I don't mind responding to criticism, but I don't like responding to toxic threads, so I hope we can keep this one civil.

>

> I'm gonna do quick bullets here to address the rest of your points since otherwise this is gonna get long:

> * Shade Aftercast - This isn't a bad idea and we've done similar things with Mesmer shatters in the past to prevent them all from activating at once.

> * Shade FX Readability - Art requests can take a little time to make since they have to go through a different team and we have a pretty strict budget for them as well. I agree that this is an issue though that I hope we can get some time for.

> * Shade Recharge vs Duration - I'm going to have to disagree about the recharge needing to stay in lockstep with the duration. Changing those values is how we adjust uptime and uptime was the area we intended to target with PvP and WvW splits.

> * Bug or Feature - Some bugs become can become features, others don't. The Desert Shroud repeatedly proccing Dhuumfire wasn't something we felt should be kept. If Scourge needed to rely on buggy behavior to be competitive then we need to fix the bug before we figure out what needs to be improved to make it competitive. If the bug is causing blowouts in other areas of the game then we need to fix it even sooner.

>

> > @Lily.1935 said:

> > I'm so beyond upset right now, I can't be objective right now.

> As a developer I don't expect players to be objective. We expect players to be passionate, involved and subjective when it comes to their chosen profession(s). So if you're upset about something, then by all means let us know you are upset. However as developers, _it is_ our job to be objective when it comes to choosing what changes to make (and what bugs to fix). Although even if your criticism is subjective, it's still helpful to give us reasons and context behind your thoughts. ;)

 

 

 

So the only thing you agree on is nerfing Scourge even more? Great.

[Wintermute.5408]

> @SPESHAL.9106 said:

> > @"Robert Gee.9246" said:

>

> > * Bug or Feature - Some bugs become can become features, others don't. The Desert Shroud repeatedly proccing Dhuumfire wasn't something we felt should be kept. If Scourge needed to rely on buggy behavior to be competitive then we need to fix the bug before we figure out what needs to be improved to make it competitive. If the bug is causing blowouts in other areas of the game then we need to fix it even sooner.

> >

>

> I'm just confused as to how Desert Shroud proccing Dhuumfire is now classified as a "bug". Nobody noticed in internal testing or beta weekend??? What about DPS parses that show where the damage comes from??? Nobody did that analysis???

>

> I'm also perplexed as to why you would rush to fix something that a month later is called a "bug", but not have the appropriate fix yet to get dps back up to snuff. This just leaves the profession hanging out to dry via an intentional decision. Makes zero sense to me.

>

 

More importantly, why isn't Dhuumfire supposed to pulse on DS? Those on-hit traits worked previously because they were attached to AA. They simply doesn't work for Scourge, as, well, it has no AA. For me it made perfect sense when it was pulsing on DS - compensating for our inability to simply spam it like before.

[Kahrgan.7401]

Being subjective and never fixing problems, is the issue, Mr. Gee.

[Sarrs.4831]

> @Wintermute.5408 said:

> More importantly, why isn't Dhuumfire supposed to pulse on DS? Those on-hit traits worked previously because they were attached to AA. They simply doesn't work for Scourge, as, well, it has no AA. For me it made perfect sense when it was pulsing on DS - compensating for our inability to simply spam it like before.

 

Presumably you are intended to use many of your f-row skills to send your Dhuumfire, rather than just using Desert Shroud with the occasional Nefarious Favor. How precisely this is intended to happen when you have such little LF generation with Scepter, though, I'm not sure.

[FaboBabo.3581]

> @Sarrs.4831 said:

> > @Wintermute.5408 said:

> > More importantly, why isn't Dhuumfire supposed to pulse on DS? Those on-hit traits worked previously because they were attached to AA. They simply doesn't work for Scourge, as, well, it has no AA. For me it made perfect sense when it was pulsing on DS - compensating for our inability to simply spam it like before.

>

> Presumably you are intended to use many of your f-row skills to send your Dhuumfire, rather than just using Desert Shroud with the occasional Nefarious Favor. How precisely this is intended to happen when you have such little LF generation with Scepter, I'm not sure.

 

You'll probably get a raise in the burn duration from Dhuumfire. This will help PvE for both reaper and Scourge (i know u want reaper as power - sorry for this), without breaking PvP or WvW.

 

Raising stacks for example, would break pvp and wvw again.

 

Keep in mind that this is just a quick Bandaid and im Not a Necro - Main.

[Enigmoid.1264]

The issue is that balance is trying to be made between modes where certain things are more or less irrelevant. EHP is more or less meaningless in raids but extremely important in WvW and PvP. Damage is much less important in PvP (many PvE glass builds are not relevant in PvP) which prioritizes sustain to a much greater degree.

 

With raids there is a push for classes to do more or less the same amount of damage. Which may be fine but then, without split balance, classes become broken in competitive modes. Where exactly is non-support ele/weaver in PvP? Its nonexistent because all that damage means nothing when you are a piece of tissue paper.

 

Incidentally, this is why warrior, in this current balance will NEVER get a decent power spec. The class is too tanky in PvP (hits like a truck and survives 1v2 like a bunker while wearing a zerker amulet). Look at how OP spellbreaker is in PvP and WvW and imagine if power warrior was not nerfed. Warrior/SB needs massive nerfs to survivability to be allowed a good power spec.

 

Necromancer/reaper has always had this issue (now Spellbreaker has it) of having too much sustain for its own good. Necro facerolls in PvE, is decent in PvP and is meta in WvW. In fractals its quite strong, especially in non-meta PUG groups. The only weakness of necromancer is raids and that is because the class was never designed around having top-tier damage. Look at Scourge, barrier, AOE conditions, insane condi cleave through epidemic, quite tanky (compared glass specs like staff ele) while doing rotations, insane boon corrrupt and condi cleanse, scourge also now gets easy stunbreak/stab on a utility. There is too much of that stuff on the spec for it to be top-tier damage. Furthermore necro's most damaging weapons, scepter, dagger, torch are all medium ranged allowing the necromancer to not have to deal with point blank melee damage. If necro is going to be doing good to great damage much of that kit needs to go, full stop. Much of this support is baseline to the class on the F abilities and don't require stat investment. This stuff has to go. Remove scourges oppressive boon removal/corruption. Streamline conditions on necromancer so it can't poop everything in 2 seconds (less access to every single damaging condition except confusion) For instance remove the poison on scepter auto and replace it with more bleeds. Tone down the innate tankiness of Reaper. Then buff damage to compensate.

 

For raids at least, supports such as scourge, firebrand, tempest and ventari rev need to be competitive with druid, chrono and PS. Scourge should not be put on the level of this holy trinity but chrono, druid, and PS drastically need a nerf. Scourge in its current form in every game mode except raids hovers between balanced and OP. We do not need to turn the holy trinity into the holy tetrad - Scourge should not be on the level of these classes, these classes need to be nerfed.

 

Some suggestions for the class.

 

Shades pulse condi once per second (not too much condi damage but significant) but last for only ~5 seconds (count recharge is 15 or 20 seconds). This shrinking of the damage window will mean that in PvE scourge will still be capable of good damage, will have some burst, and will not be as locked to immobile targets. In PvP shades do not remain on point forever; contesting the point is actually possible. With shorter duration one must be more tactical in WvW with placement

 

Scourge looses much of its boon corruption. This is too oppressive to play against and encourage keyboard mashing by the scourge instead of tactical removal.

 

PvP and WvW scourge still needs major nerfs. PvE scourge could use small buffs

 

Suggestions for balance in general

 

Gotta say this. HEALTH POOLS. With the amount of power creep there is too much damage flying around. With the push to equalize damage across professions there must be an attempt to equalize sustain (and sustain at a given level of damage). Increase health pools and decrease the difference between the health pools. For instance 16, 18, and 20k for light, medium, and heavy classes. This should help reduce one-shots. Tweak healing and sustain to compensate for health increases. This would help PvP balance while not interfering with raid "every class should deal the about the same damage" mentality that the community seems to have adopted.

 

Make all profession specific buffs 5 man only, and weak. Tweak builds so that they are never consistently godlike (chrono loses group distort for instance) but situationally strong so that classes shine under different situations.

 

 

[Sublimatio.6981]

> @"Robert Gee.9246" said:

 

> As a developer I don't expect players to be objective. We expect players to be passionate, involved and subjective when it comes to their chosen profession(s). So if you're upset about something, then by all means let us know you are upset. However as developers, _it is_ our job to be objective when it comes to choosing what changes to make (and what bugs to fix). Although even if your criticism is subjective, it's still helpful to give us reasons and context behind your thoughts. ;)

 

But the thing is, a lot of times we are very objective. We make lists of what is desirable in hardcore (and even casual) PvE setting, then we make lists of every class to compare what do they bring. All the summed up support, mobility, dps potential, number of effective builds, utility, active defense.

Please just work with us, admit that necromancer has some core issues since 2012.

We were asking for weapon skill blast finishers and a fire field for years before HoT, when dungeons were popular. We don't even have a single invulnerability, block, evasion skill - any scalable defense that would help deal with oneshot attacks (or panic buttons). As much as shroud allows to soak some "small but frequent" hits, that doesn't make it all good especially since it disables a lot (like healing or utilities). There needs to be a balance. We have more of this, give us less of that (but give). Warrior can spec for dps, for support dps, can comfortably solo/lowman with the access to low cooldown evasions/blocks. Can rush with multiple leaps, charges. I envy those players who can feel comfortable with their favourite class and can adjust their playstyle and be rewarded for tryharding. Necro works against the player when they want to work with the class. It's all I got to say.

[Atticus.7194]

> @Kam.4092 said:

> Yet another thread where a Dev gets asked actual fair questions, then gets harassed by people. You guys wonder why they don't reply often.

 

To be fair there were a lot of healthy honest questions asked that have not be addressed, and with a change this brutal it's kind of expected there is going to be a fair amount of vitriol that's not really going to be able to held back.

 

> @Kahrgan.7401 said:

> Being subjective and never fixing problems, is the issue, Mr. Gee.

 

Or more correctly fixing things that were not problems but now suddenly are. I never ever heard a single person ever complain about Desert Shroud proccing Dhuumfire multiple times before it suddenly is a bug THAT HAS TO BE FIXED RIGHT NOW. There are plenty of issues with Scourge but from what I can tell that was not one of them. It's especially bad when the "bug" is fixed and nothing is done to mitigate the fallout from the hard HARD nerf it brought to the class. I'm not exactly sure why it had to immediately be fixed and I'm not sure why now Scourges are told we are "heavy support" despite all evidence and internal testing having to point to the opposite.

 

Not to mention the developers must have known how sensitive the necro community is to this exact situation that we have been begging and pleading since beta to avoid yet find ourselves in once again. Not sure why they wouldn't perhaps implement this "bug fix" with compensation in place to address the massive DPS loss this brings. It's very strange timing honestly.

 

For the record I still say all that had to be done was add a global say a 1-2 sec GCD to shade abilities, leave the shade stacking nerf in place and most of the issues with the spec would have been addressed. Simple, easy, elegant and all this is avoided.

[Oldirtbeard.9834]

> @"Robert Gee.9246" said:

> > @Lily.1935 said:

> > Now I'm going to criticize the balance team because they, once again, went over board with the necromancer.

> Criticism is a fine thing and it's one of the reason these forums exist. I don't mind responding to criticism, but I don't like responding to toxic threads, so I hope we can keep this one civil.

>

> I'm gonna do quick bullets here to address the rest of your points since otherwise this is gonna get long:

> * Shade Aftercast - This isn't a bad idea and we've done similar things with Mesmer shatters in the past to prevent them all from activating at once.

> * Shade FX Readability - Art requests can take a little time to make since they have to go through a different team and we have a pretty strict budget for them as well. I agree that this is an issue though that I hope we can get some time for.

> * Shade Recharge vs Duration - I'm going to have to disagree about the recharge needing to stay in lockstep with the duration. Changing those values is how we adjust uptime and uptime was the area we intended to target with PvP and WvW splits.

> * Bug or Feature - Some bugs become can become features, others don't. The Desert Shroud repeatedly proccing Dhuumfire wasn't something we felt should be kept. If Scourge needed to rely on buggy behavior to be competitive then we need to fix the bug before we figure out what needs to be improved to make it competitive. If the bug is causing blowouts in other areas of the game then we need to fix it even sooner.

>

> > @Lily.1935 said:

> > I'm so beyond upset right now, I can't be objective right now.

> As a developer I don't expect players to be objective. We expect players to be passionate, involved and subjective when it comes to their chosen profession(s). So if you're upset about something, then by all means let us know you are upset. However as developers, _it is_ our job to be objective when it comes to choosing what changes to make (and what bugs to fix). Although even if your criticism is subjective, it's still helpful to give us reasons and context behind your thoughts. ;)

 

So what's going to be done regarding Power Reaper, we're still in a weak place damage wise; anything under 30,000 DPS will hinder us in organized PVE, will we ever be provided with an Offensive buff that will make us welcomed in organized PVE?

 

I realize Power is in a strange spot right now however we are still low even for Power. Perhaps we could have more utility built into Vampiric Pressence, some sort of might conversion drawing some might stacks away from opponents as a form of the life draining thing we do, or add might with our vulnerability generation, have us give different offensive buffs with our wells even, or share the benefit of our shouts with other team mates as a buff?

 

It should come as no surprise to you that PVE groups see no value in defensive buffs unless we bring Offensive bus to the table such as Druid healers with their grace of the land, even Hammer Guardians at least offer respectable DPS while providing Protection and some might.

[Substatic.6958]

Why does condi reaper still need chill field and do very low dmg in real situations? The other two options do low dmg too.

 

Why is it a low damage class? It doesn't even give good support.

[Zoltreez.6435]

> @"Robert Gee.9246" said:

> > @Lily.1935 said:

> > Now I'm going to criticize the balance team because they, once again, went over board with the necromancer.

> Criticism is a fine thing and it's one of the reason these forums exist. I don't mind responding to criticism, but I don't like responding to toxic threads, so I hope we can keep this one civil.

>

> I'm gonna do quick bullets here to address the rest of your points since otherwise this is gonna get long:

> * Shade Aftercast - This isn't a bad idea and we've done similar things with Mesmer shatters in the past to prevent them all from activating at once.

> * Shade FX Readability - Art requests can take a little time to make since they have to go through a different team and we have a pretty strict budget for them as well. I agree that this is an issue though that I hope we can get some time for.

> * Shade Recharge vs Duration - I'm going to have to disagree about the recharge needing to stay in lockstep with the duration. Changing those values is how we adjust uptime and uptime was the area we intended to target with PvP and WvW splits.

> * Bug or Feature - Some bugs become can become features, others don't. The Desert Shroud repeatedly proccing Dhuumfire wasn't something we felt should be kept. If Scourge needed to rely on buggy behavior to be competitive then we need to fix the bug before we figure out what needs to be improved to make it competitive. If the bug is causing blowouts in other areas of the game then we need to fix it even sooner.

>

> > @Lily.1935 said:

> > I'm so beyond upset right now, I can't be objective right now.

> As a developer I don't expect players to be objective. We expect players to be passionate, involved and subjective when it comes to their chosen profession(s). So if you're upset about something, then by all means let us know you are upset. However as developers, _it is_ our job to be objective when it comes to choosing what changes to make (and what bugs to fix). Although even if your criticism is subjective, it's still helpful to give us reasons and context behind your thoughts. ;)

 

I gonna sound like an ass now... BUT...

 

Necromancer players waiting for changes that make us competitive in PvE and in PvP WITHOUT needing to get baby sited by some other class/player...

SINCE THE RELEASE OF THIS GAME !!!!!!.... and we somehow ALLWAYS get the short end of the stick.... Don't be suprised we are upset as hell by now and fed up by this...

How many years we need to wait for necro to be needed wanted in Raids for example ? or when a necromancer can hold his own in PvP ALONE againts all the super mobile classes that are bloated by everything compared to us and reset fights infinitely againts a necro.....

 

and about the last part....

 

WE WERE passionate WE WERE Involved...... Yet ALL those Pages worth of Trait changes REALLY well wrote Damn good ideas and necromancer class changes that HUNDREDS if not more players Agree Upon and tried posting on reddedit and tried to get it to you guys...... ARE ROTTING on the Old Necromancer forums Multiple topics like it.... NOT even got a SINGLE response from you guys....

 

Majority of necromancers Stopped being Passionate about our classes.... most of us look at this class as a Joke at this point.....

you know why Necromancer forums are always full Of rage and sarcasm and crying mostly nowdays ? Because we are Fed up or outright don't care anymore And just trolling and laughing on this class......

 

We can be passionate but it does not matter anything if the DEVS are not passionate about it or even care about the class....... be honest do you guys have any devs that Mostly Plays a Necro and passionate about it and its future ?

 

Also STOP wasting so much time designing and giving Eles 15+ more Abilities with every single new elite Spec Compared to other classes...

All that time could have ben used on fixing and changing other Elites to a reasonable level.... or outright give some of the effects to Classes that actualy needs them and not bloated with everything for everything like Eles.... i dont know witch class needs it most...hmmm maaaybe NECROS ? you know the class that is missing like 50% of game mechanics all the other classes are bloated with ?

 

blocks.. immunes.. Real Mobility.. invis.. Resistance.. Aegis.. good ammount of boons that seems everyone can just Fart ? Strong reliable Healing that is not locked into a gimmick ? aaaaand some other things..... and the funny Part is these stuff are outright can be spammed by other classes during a fight.... Meanwhile we not even get a single one of these from anywhere as a necromancer....

 

And every time we actualy get something like some nice REEEEALY needed stability its hard locked behind Gimicks....

 

You see this Post this is what Passionate necromancers feel like now days.

[Klypto.1703]

The main problem why that bug needed fixing especially in wvw when we thought reaper was bad that shade bug made the output of condi damage equal to about 4 necros coming from one scourge compared to reaper. Reaper was already way too OP with the go into shroud and instantly kill your enemy without actually doing anything except for pressing one button. There needs to be more strict balancing though when it comes to wvw or else you have what we have had for last 2 years of non-stop necro condi spam which has made the game stale and PoF was sort of a hope to bring balance to the picture but it clearly has just made it worse.

[Lyger.5429]

> @"Robert Gee.9246" said:

> > @Lily.1935 said:

> > Now I'm going to criticize the balance team because they, once again, went over board with the necromancer.

> Criticism is a fine thing and it's one of the reason these forums exist. I don't mind responding to criticism, but I don't like responding to toxic threads, so I hope we can keep this one civil.

>

> I'm gonna do quick bullets here to address the rest of your points since otherwise this is gonna get long:

> * Shade Aftercast - This isn't a bad idea and we've done similar things with Mesmer shatters in the past to prevent them all from activating at once.

> * Shade FX Readability - Art requests can take a little time to make since they have to go through a different team and we have a pretty strict budget for them as well. I agree that this is an issue though that I hope we can get some time for.

> * Shade Recharge vs Duration - I'm going to have to disagree about the recharge needing to stay in lockstep with the duration. Changing those values is how we adjust uptime and uptime was the area we intended to target with PvP and WvW splits.

> * Bug or Feature - Some bugs become can become features, others don't. The Desert Shroud repeatedly proccing Dhuumfire wasn't something we felt should be kept. If Scourge needed to rely on buggy behavior to be competitive then we need to fix the bug before we figure out what needs to be improved to make it competitive. If the bug is causing blowouts in other areas of the game then we need to fix it even sooner.

>

> > @Lily.1935 said:

> > I'm so beyond upset right now, I can't be objective right now.

> As a developer I don't expect players to be objective. We expect players to be passionate, involved and subjective when it comes to their chosen profession(s). So if you're upset about something, then by all means let us know you are upset. However as developers, _it is_ our job to be objective when it comes to choosing what changes to make (and what bugs to fix). Although even if your criticism is subjective, it's still helpful to give us reasons and context behind your thoughts. ;)

 

This was well said Robert. I still fell like Anet needs to devote some more resources to the balance team so balance iterations can happen more frequently. Additionally, player-to-dev communication must be promoted whenever possible. Even a guild chat episode every once in a while discussing balance or potential changes would make a huge difference.

[Lalainnia.3598]

Personally at least in raiding Scourge being the top dog dps spec on a small golem without epi was pretty insane. Even if ppl might say scourge has fallen out of favor I personally don't see it. Any fights that has a steady influx of adds scourge is nothing but nice to have and way more realistic to get results on when being compared to condi reaper not to mention you get on demand aoe condi conversion for teammates a 2k barrier all on a relatively low cd.

 

Plus it was already confirmed that they're going to increase its damage from whatever it sits at after the nerfs.

[Sarrs.4831]

> @Lalainnia.3598 said:

> Plus it was already confirmed that they're going to increase its damage from whatever it sits at after the nerfs.

 

Honestly, I'd be expecting to see more details before thinking the class is saved. They also said that they wanted to bring up Reaper's power DPS, and we got the Cold Shoulder change and Reaper's Onslaught change.

[Zefiris.8297]

> @"Robert Gee.9246" said:

> > @Lily.1935 said:

> > Now I'm going to criticize the balance team because they, once again, went over board with the necromancer.

> Criticism is a fine thing and it's one of the reason these forums exist. I don't mind responding to criticism, but I don't like responding to toxic threads, so I hope we can keep this one civil.

>

> I'm gonna do quick bullets here to address the rest of your points since otherwise this is gonna get long:

> * Shade Aftercast - This isn't a bad idea and we've done similar things with Mesmer shatters in the past to prevent them all from activating at once.

> * Shade FX Readability - Art requests can take a little time to make since they have to go through a different team and we have a pretty strict budget for them as well. I agree that this is an issue though that I hope we can get some time for.

> * Shade Recharge vs Duration - I'm going to have to disagree about the recharge needing to stay in lockstep with the duration. Changing those values is how we adjust uptime and uptime was the area we intended to target with PvP and WvW splits.

> * Bug or Feature - Some bugs become can become features, others don't. The Desert Shroud repeatedly proccing Dhuumfire wasn't something we felt should be kept. If Scourge needed to rely on buggy behavior to be competitive then we need to fix the bug before we figure out what needs to be improved to make it competitive. If the bug is causing blowouts in other areas of the game then we need to fix it even sooner.

>

> > @Lily.1935 said:

> > I'm so beyond upset right now, I can't be objective right now.

> As a developer I don't expect players to be objective. We expect players to be passionate, involved and subjective when it comes to their chosen profession(s). So if you're upset about something, then by all means let us know you are upset. However as developers, _it is_ our job to be objective when it comes to choosing what changes to make (and what bugs to fix). Although even if your criticism is subjective, it's still helpful to give us reasons and context behind your thoughts. ;)

 

Thanks for the response.

Would you mind detailing what exactly a Scourge'srole in PVE/raids is supposed to be?

Your colleague mentioned that we will not be getting competitive DPS because we are "heavy support", and it would be a great help if Anet could detail what exactly this "heavy support" is, at least for PVE, so we can have a conversation and actually make suggestions that work with your class philosophy.

 

Right now, it's mostly just stabbing at the dark, because while we know that we have nothing that other groups actually want in PVE, we also know that, at the same time, we are considered "heavy support". It doesn't fit together from our perspective, and it'd really help to know the intent here.

 

And if this intent turns out to be "beginner spec for beginners", that's fine. Just tell us the design intent, please.

 

You pushed one of the biggest nerfs in the history of the game on our class (about a 40%-50% nerf of our actual DPS, a lot of it STILL undocumented in patch notes), nerfing multiple abilities at once and pushing us below other support builds *while specced for maximum damage* without communication about what the goals of the class are, and that really isn't great.

[And really, if we spec for maximum damage, and a support spec specs for support, and that support spec STILL does more damage, WHILE providing support that is superior to our support in literally every way without even being facetious, you know that there is a problem. There is a reason every raid group wants two cPS warriors and 0 scourges.]

 

At least tell us where the developer intent for the profession is when it comes to PVE. We can't know, and until we do, resentment can only get bigger.

[hellsqueen.3045]

> @vicious.5683 said:

> > @"Robert Gee.9246" said:

> > > @Lily.1935 said:

> > > I'm so beyond upset right now, I can't be objective right now.

> > As a developer I don't expect players to be objective. We expect players to be passionate, involved and subjective when it comes to their chosen profession(s). So if you're upset about something, then by all means let us know you are upset. However as developers, _it is_ our job to be objective when it comes to choosing what changes to make (and what bugs to fix). Although even if your criticism is subjective, it's still helpful to give us reasons and context behind your thoughts. ;)

>

> Do you really think is healthy for a game that a specific class (necromancer in this case) is completely excluded from raids?

> I'm actively not recommending this game to potential players just because I can't trust your balance capabilities. People spend time and money to equip their characters, just to be nerfed into the uselessness two weeks later (or a month in case of Reaper).

> Do you really hate us that bad? IF you say you are being objetive about letting necromancers have crap DPS then I can't think otherwise.

 

This game easily has one of the better balancing teams, hands down.

I play overwatch and that is truly atrocious balancing over there.

At least Anet are willing to hear the players out.

[Swagg.9236]

> @"Robert Gee.9246" said:

 

> * Shade FX Readability - Art requests can take a little time to make since they have to go through a different team and we have a pretty strict budget for them as well. I agree that this is an issue though that I hope we can get some time for.

 

In the first place, the class shouldn't have shipped with the same FX for 3 instant-cast abilities that are stapled to the profession bar, but it's nice that you can admit the issue exists.

 

> @"Robert Gee.9246" said:

 

> * The Desert Shroud repeatedly proccing Dhuumfire wasn't something we felt should be kept. If Scourge needed to rely on buggy behavior to be competitive then we need to fix the bug before we figure out what needs to be improved to make it competitive. If the bug is causing blowouts in other areas of the game then we need to fix it even sooner

 

Not to argue against the "bug" removal (that's fine), but you're then saying that the "bug-free" scourge is a PvE joke when necro already wasn't that competitive in PvE? That was always the plan? Where's the communication with other spec designers? Where is the QA?

 

 

> @"Robert Gee.9246" said:

 

> Although even if your criticism is subjective, it's still helpful to give us reasons and context behind your thoughts. ;)

 

There is nothing subjective about player-logged dps benchmarks. Gw2 and scourge respectively have a number of fundamental, objective balance issues that have only been made more apparent with each expac:

* gw2 doesn't establish a wide enough mechanic and class role base to justify its array of class and build "options": the game's sole, concrete role is DPS (which sometimes also heals)

* reaper and scourge are both (arbitrarily sub-par) DPS specs

* even if scourge emerged as a barrier-support spec, that spec is party-health related; Druid already fills a party-health related and also provides a huge party buff on top of it (which necro doesn't); you need to balance by DPS and class-unique party damage buffs (i.e. grace of the land, etc) since you aren't making new roles

 

 

Again, by the looks of it, it's as if your development teams are wholly fragmented and don't communicate with each other about anything. It's like how a wandering, pvp-forum-browsing dev has to directly email the soulbeast designer about how the rock gazelle was still insta-gibbing people over 2 weeks after expac launch, or how renegade does zero things. If there was communication or any semblance of cohesive planning, there would probably be a level of continuity and purpose evident in respective class DPS output and party support. However, there isn't; a class being "good" or "bad" is effectively a patch notes craps shoot.

 

Don't try to pass off player concerns as subjective while magically justifying dev words as law when the players are the only ones who are vocal in concrete terms about gw2's glaring and objective issues.

[Oldirtbeard.9834]

I just noticed this, I meant to post this in the bug forum.

 

https://imgur.com/a/Ysuc7#HFsvV3W

[borrok.9267]

> @"Robert Gee.9246" said:

> > @Lily.1935 said:

> > Now I'm going to criticize the balance team because they, once again, went over board with the necromancer.

> Criticism is a fine thing and it's one of the reason these forums exist. I don't mind responding to criticism, but I don't like responding to toxic threads, so I hope we can keep this one civil.

>

> I'm gonna do quick bullets here to address the rest of your points since otherwise this is gonna get long:

> * Shade Aftercast - This isn't a bad idea and we've done similar things with Mesmer shatters in the past to prevent them all from activating at once.

> * Shade FX Readability - Art requests can take a little time to make since they have to go through a different team and we have a pretty strict budget for them as well. I agree that this is an issue though that I hope we can get some time for.

> * Shade Recharge vs Duration - I'm going to have to disagree about the recharge needing to stay in lockstep with the duration. Changing those values is how we adjust uptime and uptime was the area we intended to target with PvP and WvW splits.

> * Bug or Feature - Some bugs become can become features, others don't. The Desert Shroud repeatedly proccing Dhuumfire wasn't something we felt should be kept. If Scourge needed to rely on buggy behavior to be competitive then we need to fix the bug before we figure out what needs to be improved to make it competitive. If the bug is causing blowouts in other areas of the game then we need to fix it even sooner.

>

> > @Lily.1935 said:

> > I'm so beyond upset right now, I can't be objective right now.

> As a developer I don't expect players to be objective. We expect players to be passionate, involved and subjective when it comes to their chosen profession(s). So if you're upset about something, then by all means let us know you are upset. However as developers, _it is_ our job to be objective when it comes to choosing what changes to make (and what bugs to fix). Although even if your criticism is subjective, it's still helpful to give us reasons and context behind your thoughts. ;)

 

If a class needs a bug to be competitive, isn't that indicative of a really horrible class? I like necro, but I'm dropping the class for something that is competitive. Makes sense for a death inspired class to die. Not to be over dramatic, but the more I get in it now the more I see how bad it is...

[Brighteluden.2974]

It's fine all we have to do is wait another 3-4 weeks for the next balance patch to get a 5% increase here and there on skills we don't even want to ever use as a necro.

[CMinnett.2375]

Seems like the mechanic the balance team should focus their attention on realigning is the barrier.

 

In virtually all MMOs, the darkity-dark, skeletons and ghoul bloodmagey class tends to occupy the same space. While we can often shift into a "support" role, we don't support in the same, direct way the holy twits do with their sparkles and sunshine and happiness and altruism. Ours is sinister; we weaken, leech, and generally undermine the effectiveness of our foes' skills. We currently get a bit of that with blood magic, but the Scourge line is just...lacking. That top line, specifically, doesn't fit what we classically (yes, I know, GW2 throws out the classics blah blah blah) would expect of the dark, poison, and death-wielding supporter. The way barriers are designed is almost too close to classical healing without including those offensive elements that balance them -- they're half of what they _should_ be.

 

The sandy torment and shade abilities are offensively control-oriented, but the barrier skills are weirdly traditional, "I intend to protect you!" form of support. It's completely antithetical to the idea of the necromancer for those barriers to be the point rather than the happy accident side-effect. The boon conversion on skills such as Sand Flare, Sand Swell, and Serpent Siphon are nice, but they're insufficient and thematically misaligned with the class. Put some debuffs and DoTs on those skills; it's magical flaying sand. Tiny, tiny shards of glass exploding outwards should add some bleeding, blind, or weakness to enemies, with corrupted boons and medium to low support to allies to balance out (with slower barrier decay and longer time until decay starts, please!). Thematically, it seems like we're supposed to be that sinister debuffing and DoTing class...those effects shouldn't be easy for other classes to immediately counter and cleanse. Those top Scourge traits should make the barriers even scarier, not half-assed granting of might.