Balance is not about removing what you find annoying to go against

[DeceiverX.8361]

Something can be numerically balanced but designed horribly. Especially when doing the numerical analysis in a vacuum and not accounting for a plethora of tactics employed by players. Stuff like kiting and range and reset potential are much more abstract.

 

I usually make this distinction when ranting about the professions.

 

Most of my criticism towards the play patterns in GW2 comes from design, which is what the aforementioned brings light to. Bad design can make something "balanced" not particularly balanced at all, and most certainly unhealthy for the game and not fun to play against.

 

Add stuff like Condi to the mix which basically throws a monkey wrench into build options and how stats interplay with various mechanics and you end up with another whole set of problems where something annoying, if played to be annoying specifically, can end up being either OP or not OP and so pointlessly anti-fun despite its niche that there's next to no reason to keep it around.

[Arheundel.6451]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > Generally speaking, MMOs are not about playing a game accordingly to your rules , other people are trying to enjoy the game just as much as you , **nobody** has the rights to demand the removal of something simply because it's "unfun" to play against. Other players should have the same chances to kill your class just as much as you should have against their, if it's not fun for you to be stunlocked/feared chained/insta killed or whatever why would you think it'd be different for other people?

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Less ego and more self-reflection....

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > So demanding removal of clearly unbalanced, broken, overstacked stuff that makes people just go straight for uninstall is not okay?

> > > > > > > > > > > Actually, as a customers, we do have a right to "demand" or rather ask for things if you like it or not, if these things will be "delivered" though it's a different story.

> > > > > > > > > > > You're kinda going against your own words in that post...

> > > > > > > > > > > You say " **nobody** has the rights to demand the removal of something simply because it's "unfun" to play against" and then "Other players should have the same chances to kill your class just as much as you should have against their", which is it then? There were/are things in the game that are clearly unbalanced/broken that need either complete removal or rework since they're overstacked too much without much counterplay.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I see no connection between what can be considered broken/overperforming and what may force you to uninstall , if you'd be so kind to provide an example...

> > > > > > > > > It's gonna be difficult to write everything that was broken, so I'll just put few examples of pre-nerfed state builds: Condi Mirage(all versions, iframe spam says hi), Condi Thief(even currently is kitten, condi spam says hi), Druid(side-noder, ancient seed spam says hi), Warrior(all versions, overstacked Full-counter/rampage says hi), Chronomancer(bunker and phantasm says hi), Fireweaver(condi/evasion spam says hi), Hambow(stunlock says hi), Turret Engi(AI says hi), Minionmancer(AI says hi) and many more that made people quit since 2012.

> > > > > > > > > Don't know about you, but I don't think a lot of people enjoy being trashed without any kind of counterplay, even if they were trying to tune their build to counter XYZ, some were straight-up uncounterable.

> > > > > > > > > Like 1shots from stealth, overspam of condies, unkillable bunkers(current era to a degree). A lot of people quit because of memes like that.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > This thread was never against the idea of removing OP specs and more against the idea that removing what makes a class competitive should be removed, toning down is one thing....completely removing the build is another.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > If one spec is supposed to be duel...then don't go and ask to remove everything that makes that build capable of duelling in the first place:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > -a side noder must have enough sustain to against sudden +1 if not it cannot be a side noder....no I don't mean being able to 1vs3+ for hours

> > > > > > > > -a support spec must be able to sustain enough pressure if not it cannot support anybody...no I don't mean being able to hold all enemy team for 5m+

> > > > > > > > -a burst spec supposed to burst you down...no I don't mean one shot from stealth...but enough to scare you or kill you if can't react fast enough

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Removal of what annoys you =/ balance let's all make this straight once and for all

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Ur not wrong man, been in this game coming on 7 yrs now and barely play but the community has gotten progressively worse as literally any skill or tactic a class uses to be effective will naturally spawn a nerf post here and there but in this community they'll be spammed. Then after some time anet devs who can't balance on their own accord will nerf the class so that skill or tactic is useless all while far more problematic skills and tactics go unchanged due to them being more accepted either thru class popularity or simply not being one of the few classes constantly hated on by the community.

> > > > > > > The funny thing is the community wonders why the population is abysmally low and declining and on top complain about build deversity. The games basically amounted to everyone picking the most brainless cheese carry build in hope's to be effective against players doing the same. So many things in this games pvp need to be reworked including anets devs approach regarding the modes.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You defend revenants saying they're balanced...while a team win a monthly tournaments with 3 revs in it....wvw is full of Mallyx revs from small scale roaming to frontline zerging and GvG fights.....sidenoders in pvp...unkillable sidenoders with enough experience........in the same instance you claim that **tempest** is broken lol when every team with a tempest lost to FB team, tempests don't get stacked in WvW and neither can roam, can't sidenode for kitten and yet...revenant is balanced while tempest is broken..such an example of integrity you are

> > > > >

> > > > > That's the exact mentality I'm speaking about. Revs are not a easy class to play, lower ranks u see a rev usually their free kills. Their high evades/sustain require using properly times evade frames from skills, one block on staff, shiro roll back requiring energy resource and a heal that needs to be used while taking decent dps for it to be very effective. Yeah revs a monster if ur a good player which is how it should be and I also other classes should be brought up to that lv of effectiveness for the work put in. I'm against classes mechanics like necro where u spam and when close to death press a keybind and bam second hp bar with damage reduction, thsts brainless, add in fear spam and awesome. Or guards that stand in one spot even low rank spamming condi's and sustain skill and being far more effective than they should be for work put in just like necro. Or maybe spam autos from range while a pet hits as hard as a player and when u focus pet as many say u just allow the ranger to keep free hitting u than if u get in close bam barrier, protection and stability or trap dropped and invisible with superspeed. The game is filled with brainless spam carry builds due to anets inability to balance a all classes do everything approach and it's best to nerf a effective class that requires skill to play? How many top streamers that are viewed as very highly skilled in the game tried rev since last patch drop and continued to do so and didnt go back to their main? None. They all usually make comments when jumping on power rev and state "I'm not great on rev but I'm rolling it cuz team needs one".

> > > > > Rev is one of the few classes that require skill to be effective in high tier play and is separate from half these brainless spam classes that yeah ur ranger now falls into and the community wants it nerfed lol no surprise.

> > > > > Also it's not black and white sometime classes are stacked due to them being effective which doesn't always equate to OP just like skills and tactics that are effective don't automatically mean their op, where does this mentality come from?

> > > > > It's easy to tell if a build is being stacked due to being OP or brainless but still effective such as post nerf core necro, condi rev/ren, cindi thief, all burn specs that spam burns due to the burst dps burn tics do post patch vs power dps, condo and power ranger due to multiple brainless effective build possibilities and so on.

> > > > > Also a class that's dominant when stacked doesn't inherently make a spec op as thsts the fault of the system allowing class stacking and a class system promoting low class diversity. If a class is nerfed so its ineffective having 2 on a team how do u nerf that in a way that allows having one to remain effective? If having two is a detriment in a game designed with all classes do everything method than one would be detrimental as well as that method of thinking would only work in a game with holly trinity as having 3 dps and 2 tanks with no healer would be a detriment.

> > > >

> > > > If the classes you complain about would be as strong as you say...then we would see much more of them at high tier and yet...this doesn't happen, TOP players are supposed to be even more devastating on a class and yet...they pick rev over ranger or guardian or ele when these classes stop being viable at the top.

> > > >

> > > > If the way revs sustain themselves is the only fair one to fight..then it should be extended to everybody else while removing the current ones and yet..you complain about sword weaver which was based on the same idea of evading incoming attacks...but people called it OP...so eles should have heal burst?!...no people called it OP...and this goes for all other professions you see?!

> > > >

> > > > How exactly would you give the same tools that revs has to avoid instant death to another profession?

> > >

> > > Well for one ranger is being played in top tier matches again these days and u saying power shiro rev is easier to be as equally as effective compared to slbeast or core ranger? Cuz lol. A rev may have a higher skill ceiling than say ranger but its skill floor is significantly higher so... if its impossible to have actual perfect overall balance would u rather this scanario or the class with a lower skill floor also be able to match a class with a higher skill floor and ceiling when two equally skilled players are playing the two? I'll use ranger as a example as I kno u play it. I say buff rangers skill ceiling or potential to match revs while reworking all of its brainless carry mechanics out of it making it require more thoughtful play and skill to be effective with or nerf revs skill ceiling down so skilled players arnt monsters on it but add in some of condi revs brainless spam playstyle into power rev successfully dumbing the build down. What sounds healthier for the game?

> >

> > I have asked how would you accomplish this skill ceiling buff on other classes? You claim that revenant sustain/dmg ratio is balanced while being based on the timing of inbuilt evades and block/heal/boon uptime; at this point I wonder how would you make so that 2 skilled players ,one on a rev and another playing a different profession, would have a balanced fight with equal chance to take each one out.

> >

> > Between Glint aoe/elite and sword off hand ranged onehit burst, 2 teleports, all boons uptime (minus resistance without mallyx) , block/dash with staff........please why don't you try to explain me how we can match that same level of burst/sustain on other professions with something that you don't consider cheese?

> >

> >

>

> If were talking ranger as a example I'd drop the damage so hard on passive pet damage but have the pet skills when melded have good damage, id increase the CD on maul and make a successful hilt bash reduce CD by 50% not out right remove the cd(stupid carry design) the damage is already fine on maul. I'd speed up the ranger autos significantly and put the evade back in between the second and last sword hit cuz if u can time that last hit to avoid significant damage than the ranger should be rewarded with a evade, hilt bash also should get some damage returned to it as should a lot off the hard cc skill,not all but a lot of them. The long bow rapid fire damage is fine but CD should be be slightly increased, for braindead spam purposes lb autos should be unaffected by damage multipliers or boons. I could go on and I know in ways this sounds like a nerf but if these types of things are applied to all classes it wouldn't be bad. Traps like guards should have the cd stars to reset on activation not when placed so they cant be placed a second time on a opponent who just activated it. This game is so full of bad carry designs it's crazy.

 

Those "changes" would influence my experience on ranger/guardian by at least....5% out of 100%. Some players can adapt and evolve..others cannot and will keep on losing , no amount of nerfs will ever change that

[Master Ketsu.4569]

The current Condi/CC AoE spam meta we are in is objectively unskillful gameplay.

[Arheundel.6451]

> @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> The current Condi/CC AoE spam meta we are in is objectively unskillful gameplay.

 

....Like every other time before ..somehow the "current meta" is always the worst and one before was way better but in truth the only good meta for each individual is where they win everytime with their class of choice...I rest my case

 

[avey.4201]

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> > The current Condi/CC AoE spam meta we are in is objectively unskillful gameplay.

>

> ....Like every other time before ..somehow the "current meta" is always the worst and one before was way better but in truth the only good meta for each individual is where they win everytime with their class of choice...I rest my case

>

 

my 26k deaths disagree with you, meme hunter was fun, and I died more often than not.

[Shiyo.3578]

> @"Ovark.2514" said:

> Games are about having fun. If something is un-fun to play against, that is code for "At least one of a class's mechanics are not being put into play." This is a design issue and needs to be addressed ASAP.

 

I think mesmer is the biggest offender of unfun to play against. People play a 1 shot mesmer spec where you essentially do not interact with them the entire fight. You are either dazed, or they are blocking, evading, stealthed, or invul to all damage.

There's also some mirage bunker build that just runs in circles and can't die. Pretty unfun experience.

 

Druid is probably the 2nd biggest offender, where you are CCed 75% of the time.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > @"Ovark.2514" said:

> > Games are about having fun. If something is un-fun to play against, that is code for "At least one of a class's mechanics are not being put into play." This is a design issue and needs to be addressed ASAP.

>

> I think mesmer is the biggest offender of unfun to play against. People play a 1 shot mesmer spec where you essentially do not interact with them the entire fight. You are either dazed, or they are blocking, evading, stealthed, or invul to all damage.

> There's also some mirage bunker build that just runs in circles and can't die. Pretty unfun experience.

>

> Druid is probably the 2nd biggest offender, where you are CCed 75% of the time.

 

someone doesnt like mesmer lol

[Strider.7849]

> @"Supreme.3164" said:

> Generally speaking, MMOs are not about playing a game accordingly to your rules , other people are trying to enjoy the game just as much as you , **nobody** has the rights to demand the removal of something simply because it's "unfun" to play against. Other players should have the same chances to kill your class just as much as you should have against their, if it's not fun for you to be stunlocked/feared chained/insta killed or whatever why would you think it'd be different for other people?

>

> Less ego and more self-reflection....

 

I agree with you on this, but not that long ago you were posting in a thread about agreeing with ranger pet nerfs and how rangers shouldn't talk (due to ele/warrior).

 

Now there have been threads posted between WvW and PvP discussing how busted ele and warrior are - one I remember recently on the PvP forums about tempest, and the warrior one in a WvW thread based on a roaming challenge a content creator made.

 

My point is the nerfs are coming full circle and the complaints will never stop, because bad players don't want to learn how to counter or be able to defeat "X" build/class. Even **you** need to do your part outside of just posting this thread and not jump in with the sheep in other threads.

 

Right now there really isn't ANY profession that I would consider OP. Yes, that includes condi rev and core necro bunker (saying this as a player who doesn't use either class, only experience is in fighting them). Strong, have high representation, and ease of play - but not undefeatable. Instead we should be looking at how we can bring up lesser used classes or fix things that aren't working - giving options back to classes.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> > The current Condi/CC AoE spam meta we are in is objectively unskillful gameplay.

>

> ....Like every other time before ..somehow the "current meta" is always the worst and one before was way better but in truth the only good meta for each individual is where they win everytime with their class of choice...I rest my case

>

 

You're literally talking to a revenant main which power or condi is one of the strongest builds in the game right now, meta class and easily top 3 strongest builds for ranked play.

[Moradorin.6217]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > Generally speaking, MMOs are not about playing a game accordingly to your rules , other people are trying to enjoy the game just as much as you , **nobody** has the rights to demand the removal of something simply because it's "unfun" to play against. Other players should have the same chances to kill your class just as much as you should have against their, if it's not fun for you to be stunlocked/feared chained/insta killed or whatever why would you think it'd be different for other people?

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Less ego and more self-reflection....

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > So demanding removal of clearly unbalanced, broken, overstacked stuff that makes people just go straight for uninstall is not okay?

> > > > > > > > > > > Actually, as a customers, we do have a right to "demand" or rather ask for things if you like it or not, if these things will be "delivered" though it's a different story.

> > > > > > > > > > > You're kinda going against your own words in that post...

> > > > > > > > > > > You say " **nobody** has the rights to demand the removal of something simply because it's "unfun" to play against" and then "Other players should have the same chances to kill your class just as much as you should have against their", which is it then? There were/are things in the game that are clearly unbalanced/broken that need either complete removal or rework since they're overstacked too much without much counterplay.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I see no connection between what can be considered broken/overperforming and what may force you to uninstall , if you'd be so kind to provide an example...

> > > > > > > > > It's gonna be difficult to write everything that was broken, so I'll just put few examples of pre-nerfed state builds: Condi Mirage(all versions, iframe spam says hi), Condi Thief(even currently is kitten, condi spam says hi), Druid(side-noder, ancient seed spam says hi), Warrior(all versions, overstacked Full-counter/rampage says hi), Chronomancer(bunker and phantasm says hi), Fireweaver(condi/evasion spam says hi), Hambow(stunlock says hi), Turret Engi(AI says hi), Minionmancer(AI says hi) and many more that made people quit since 2012.

> > > > > > > > > Don't know about you, but I don't think a lot of people enjoy being trashed without any kind of counterplay, even if they were trying to tune their build to counter XYZ, some were straight-up uncounterable.

> > > > > > > > > Like 1shots from stealth, overspam of condies, unkillable bunkers(current era to a degree). A lot of people quit because of memes like that.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > This thread was never against the idea of removing OP specs and more against the idea that removing what makes a class competitive should be removed, toning down is one thing....completely removing the build is another.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > If one spec is supposed to be duel...then don't go and ask to remove everything that makes that build capable of duelling in the first place:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > -a side noder must have enough sustain to against sudden +1 if not it cannot be a side noder....no I don't mean being able to 1vs3+ for hours

> > > > > > > > -a support spec must be able to sustain enough pressure if not it cannot support anybody...no I don't mean being able to hold all enemy team for 5m+

> > > > > > > > -a burst spec supposed to burst you down...no I don't mean one shot from stealth...but enough to scare you or kill you if can't react fast enough

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Removal of what annoys you =/ balance let's all make this straight once and for all

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Ur not wrong man, been in this game coming on 7 yrs now and barely play but the community has gotten progressively worse as literally any skill or tactic a class uses to be effective will naturally spawn a nerf post here and there but in this community they'll be spammed. Then after some time anet devs who can't balance on their own accord will nerf the class so that skill or tactic is useless all while far more problematic skills and tactics go unchanged due to them being more accepted either thru class popularity or simply not being one of the few classes constantly hated on by the community.

> > > > > > > The funny thing is the community wonders why the population is abysmally low and declining and on top complain about build deversity. The games basically amounted to everyone picking the most brainless cheese carry build in hope's to be effective against players doing the same. So many things in this games pvp need to be reworked including anets devs approach regarding the modes.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You defend revenants saying they're balanced...while a team win a monthly tournaments with 3 revs in it....wvw is full of Mallyx revs from small scale roaming to frontline zerging and GvG fights.....sidenoders in pvp...unkillable sidenoders with enough experience........in the same instance you claim that **tempest** is broken lol when every team with a tempest lost to FB team, tempests don't get stacked in WvW and neither can roam, can't sidenode for kitten and yet...revenant is balanced while tempest is broken..such an example of integrity you are

> > > > >

> > > > > That's the exact mentality I'm speaking about. Revs are not a easy class to play, lower ranks u see a rev usually their free kills. Their high evades/sustain require using properly times evade frames from skills, one block on staff, shiro roll back requiring energy resource and a heal that needs to be used while taking decent dps for it to be very effective. Yeah revs a monster if ur a good player which is how it should be and I also other classes should be brought up to that lv of effectiveness for the work put in. I'm against classes mechanics like necro where u spam and when close to death press a keybind and bam second hp bar with damage reduction, thsts brainless, add in fear spam and awesome. Or guards that stand in one spot even low rank spamming condi's and sustain skill and being far more effective than they should be for work put in just like necro. Or maybe spam autos from range while a pet hits as hard as a player and when u focus pet as many say u just allow the ranger to keep free hitting u than if u get in close bam barrier, protection and stability or trap dropped and invisible with superspeed. The game is filled with brainless spam carry builds due to anets inability to balance a all classes do everything approach and it's best to nerf a effective class that requires skill to play? How many top streamers that are viewed as very highly skilled in the game tried rev since last patch drop and continued to do so and didnt go back to their main? None. They all usually make comments when jumping on power rev and state "I'm not great on rev but I'm rolling it cuz team needs one".

> > > > > Rev is one of the few classes that require skill to be effective in high tier play and is separate from half these brainless spam classes that yeah ur ranger now falls into and the community wants it nerfed lol no surprise.

> > > > > Also it's not black and white sometime classes are stacked due to them being effective which doesn't always equate to OP just like skills and tactics that are effective don't automatically mean their op, where does this mentality come from?

> > > > > It's easy to tell if a build is being stacked due to being OP or brainless but still effective such as post nerf core necro, condi rev/ren, cindi thief, all burn specs that spam burns due to the burst dps burn tics do post patch vs power dps, condo and power ranger due to multiple brainless effective build possibilities and so on.

> > > > > Also a class that's dominant when stacked doesn't inherently make a spec op as thsts the fault of the system allowing class stacking and a class system promoting low class diversity. If a class is nerfed so its ineffective having 2 on a team how do u nerf that in a way that allows having one to remain effective? If having two is a detriment in a game designed with all classes do everything method than one would be detrimental as well as that method of thinking would only work in a game with holly trinity as having 3 dps and 2 tanks with no healer would be a detriment.

> > > >

> > > > If the classes you complain about would be as strong as you say...then we would see much more of them at high tier and yet...this doesn't happen, TOP players are supposed to be even more devastating on a class and yet...they pick rev over ranger or guardian or ele when these classes stop being viable at the top.

> > > >

> > > > If the way revs sustain themselves is the only fair one to fight..then it should be extended to everybody else while removing the current ones and yet..you complain about sword weaver which was based on the same idea of evading incoming attacks...but people called it OP...so eles should have heal burst?!...no people called it OP...and this goes for all other professions you see?!

> > > >

> > > > How exactly would you give the same tools that revs has to avoid instant death to another profession?

> > >

> > > Well for one ranger is being played in top tier matches again these days and u saying power shiro rev is easier to be as equally as effective compared to slbeast or core ranger? Cuz lol. A rev may have a higher skill ceiling than say ranger but its skill floor is significantly higher so... if its impossible to have actual perfect overall balance would u rather this scanario or the class with a lower skill floor also be able to match a class with a higher skill floor and ceiling when two equally skilled players are playing the two? I'll use ranger as a example as I kno u play it. I say buff rangers skill ceiling or potential to match revs while reworking all of its brainless carry mechanics out of it making it require more thoughtful play and skill to be effective with or nerf revs skill ceiling down so skilled players arnt monsters on it but add in some of condi revs brainless spam playstyle into power rev successfully dumbing the build down. What sounds healthier for the game?

> >

> > I have asked how would you accomplish this skill ceiling buff on other classes? You claim that revenant sustain/dmg ratio is balanced while being based on the timing of inbuilt evades and block/heal/boon uptime; at this point I wonder how would you make so that 2 skilled players ,one on a rev and another playing a different profession, would have a balanced fight with equal chance to take each one out.

> >

> > Between Glint aoe/elite and sword off hand ranged onehit burst, 2 teleports, all boons uptime (minus resistance without mallyx) , block/dash with staff........please why don't you try to explain me how we can match that same level of burst/sustain on other professions with something that you don't consider cheese?

> >

> >

>

> If were talking ranger as a example I'd drop the damage so hard on passive pet damage but have the pet skills when melded have good damage, id increase the CD on maul and make a successful hilt bash reduce CD by 50% not out right remove the cd(stupid carry design) the damage is already fine on maul. I'd speed up the ranger autos significantly and put the evade back in between the second and last sword hit cuz if u can time that last hit to avoid significant damage than the ranger should be rewarded with a evade, hilt bash also should get some damage returned to it as should a lot off the hard cc skill,not all but a lot of them. The long bow rapid fire damage is fine but CD should be be slightly increased, for braindead spam purposes lb autos should be unaffected by damage multipliers or boons. I could go on and I know in ways this sounds like a nerf but if these types of things are applied to all classes it wouldn't be bad. Traps like guards should have the cd stars to reset on activation not when placed so they cant be placed a second time on a opponent who just activated it. This game is so full of bad carry designs it's crazy.

 

So you would "solve the issue" by totally destroying core and druid while keeping SlB intact it sounds like. What I mean is you are proposing the "drop the damage hard on ...pet", but give good damage merged. Well the only one who can "merge" is SLB. That is a horrible suggestion. Also that combo has been nerfed enough IMO, the only thing that needs to be reduced IS MERGED DAMAGE to balance IF ANYTHING.

 

I dont play ranger much but I have played it enough to know that the Maul, hiltbash, maul combo has MAJOR tells and any player can easily avoid the hildbash and 2nd maul. you just move away. if you move away then the ranger has to try and move or use gs3 to leap to you and will then likely burn up its next opening strike bonus and lose the while daze bonus for the 2nd maul because of the time delay after bash combined with needing to use 3 skill before they can hit with 2 skill again and opening stike is on furry application only. In other words, the only way maul does good bash IS with thinking ahead and doing a a combination of skills with boon application either via utility or pet swap. the pet swap no longer works for SLB they use merge now.

 

I think you have a distorted view of you own class and skill.

 

Just like your suggestions for Mesmer. All your "class balance" suggestions tend to sounds more like YOU are one of the posters who DO try to KILL a CLASS TO REDUCE your COMPETITION.I think

 

Rev and Guard are the ones that people should focus on destorying at this point.

 

Heck lets just nerf them all into oblivion! Why the heck not just kill the entire game.

 

Ohh wait the point of this thread is about WHY do we have to remove what we dont like to the detriment of other classes. ironically your post demonstrates why the forum comments arent usually constructive when balance is the topic. People tend to demonstrate the same clasxs BIAS that you have.

[Strider.7849]

> @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Generally speaking, MMOs are not about playing a game accordingly to your rules , other people are trying to enjoy the game just as much as you , **nobody** has the rights to demand the removal of something simply because it's "unfun" to play against. Other players should have the same chances to kill your class just as much as you should have against their, if it's not fun for you to be stunlocked/feared chained/insta killed or whatever why would you think it'd be different for other people?

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Less ego and more self-reflection....

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > So demanding removal of clearly unbalanced, broken, overstacked stuff that makes people just go straight for uninstall is not okay?

> > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, as a customers, we do have a right to "demand" or rather ask for things if you like it or not, if these things will be "delivered" though it's a different story.

> > > > > > > > > > > > You're kinda going against your own words in that post...

> > > > > > > > > > > > You say " **nobody** has the rights to demand the removal of something simply because it's "unfun" to play against" and then "Other players should have the same chances to kill your class just as much as you should have against their", which is it then? There were/are things in the game that are clearly unbalanced/broken that need either complete removal or rework since they're overstacked too much without much counterplay.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > I see no connection between what can be considered broken/overperforming and what may force you to uninstall , if you'd be so kind to provide an example...

> > > > > > > > > > It's gonna be difficult to write everything that was broken, so I'll just put few examples of pre-nerfed state builds: Condi Mirage(all versions, iframe spam says hi), Condi Thief(even currently is kitten, condi spam says hi), Druid(side-noder, ancient seed spam says hi), Warrior(all versions, overstacked Full-counter/rampage says hi), Chronomancer(bunker and phantasm says hi), Fireweaver(condi/evasion spam says hi), Hambow(stunlock says hi), Turret Engi(AI says hi), Minionmancer(AI says hi) and many more that made people quit since 2012.

> > > > > > > > > > Don't know about you, but I don't think a lot of people enjoy being trashed without any kind of counterplay, even if they were trying to tune their build to counter XYZ, some were straight-up uncounterable.

> > > > > > > > > > Like 1shots from stealth, overspam of condies, unkillable bunkers(current era to a degree). A lot of people quit because of memes like that.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > This thread was never against the idea of removing OP specs and more against the idea that removing what makes a class competitive should be removed, toning down is one thing....completely removing the build is another.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > If one spec is supposed to be duel...then don't go and ask to remove everything that makes that build capable of duelling in the first place:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > -a side noder must have enough sustain to against sudden +1 if not it cannot be a side noder....no I don't mean being able to 1vs3+ for hours

> > > > > > > > > -a support spec must be able to sustain enough pressure if not it cannot support anybody...no I don't mean being able to hold all enemy team for 5m+

> > > > > > > > > -a burst spec supposed to burst you down...no I don't mean one shot from stealth...but enough to scare you or kill you if can't react fast enough

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Removal of what annoys you =/ balance let's all make this straight once and for all

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Ur not wrong man, been in this game coming on 7 yrs now and barely play but the community has gotten progressively worse as literally any skill or tactic a class uses to be effective will naturally spawn a nerf post here and there but in this community they'll be spammed. Then after some time anet devs who can't balance on their own accord will nerf the class so that skill or tactic is useless all while far more problematic skills and tactics go unchanged due to them being more accepted either thru class popularity or simply not being one of the few classes constantly hated on by the community.

> > > > > > > > The funny thing is the community wonders why the population is abysmally low and declining and on top complain about build deversity. The games basically amounted to everyone picking the most brainless cheese carry build in hope's to be effective against players doing the same. So many things in this games pvp need to be reworked including anets devs approach regarding the modes.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > You defend revenants saying they're balanced...while a team win a monthly tournaments with 3 revs in it....wvw is full of Mallyx revs from small scale roaming to frontline zerging and GvG fights.....sidenoders in pvp...unkillable sidenoders with enough experience........in the same instance you claim that **tempest** is broken lol when every team with a tempest lost to FB team, tempests don't get stacked in WvW and neither can roam, can't sidenode for kitten and yet...revenant is balanced while tempest is broken..such an example of integrity you are

> > > > > >

> > > > > > That's the exact mentality I'm speaking about. Revs are not a easy class to play, lower ranks u see a rev usually their free kills. Their high evades/sustain require using properly times evade frames from skills, one block on staff, shiro roll back requiring energy resource and a heal that needs to be used while taking decent dps for it to be very effective. Yeah revs a monster if ur a good player which is how it should be and I also other classes should be brought up to that lv of effectiveness for the work put in. I'm against classes mechanics like necro where u spam and when close to death press a keybind and bam second hp bar with damage reduction, thsts brainless, add in fear spam and awesome. Or guards that stand in one spot even low rank spamming condi's and sustain skill and being far more effective than they should be for work put in just like necro. Or maybe spam autos from range while a pet hits as hard as a player and when u focus pet as many say u just allow the ranger to keep free hitting u than if u get in close bam barrier, protection and stability or trap dropped and invisible with superspeed. The game is filled with brainless spam carry builds due to anets inability to balance a all classes do everything approach and it's best to nerf a effective class that requires skill to play? How many top streamers that are viewed as very highly skilled in the game tried rev since last patch drop and continued to do so and didnt go back to their main? None. They all usually make comments when jumping on power rev and state "I'm not great on rev but I'm rolling it cuz team needs one".

> > > > > > Rev is one of the few classes that require skill to be effective in high tier play and is separate from half these brainless spam classes that yeah ur ranger now falls into and the community wants it nerfed lol no surprise.

> > > > > > Also it's not black and white sometime classes are stacked due to them being effective which doesn't always equate to OP just like skills and tactics that are effective don't automatically mean their op, where does this mentality come from?

> > > > > > It's easy to tell if a build is being stacked due to being OP or brainless but still effective such as post nerf core necro, condi rev/ren, cindi thief, all burn specs that spam burns due to the burst dps burn tics do post patch vs power dps, condo and power ranger due to multiple brainless effective build possibilities and so on.

> > > > > > Also a class that's dominant when stacked doesn't inherently make a spec op as thsts the fault of the system allowing class stacking and a class system promoting low class diversity. If a class is nerfed so its ineffective having 2 on a team how do u nerf that in a way that allows having one to remain effective? If having two is a detriment in a game designed with all classes do everything method than one would be detrimental as well as that method of thinking would only work in a game with holly trinity as having 3 dps and 2 tanks with no healer would be a detriment.

> > > > >

> > > > > If the classes you complain about would be as strong as you say...then we would see much more of them at high tier and yet...this doesn't happen, TOP players are supposed to be even more devastating on a class and yet...they pick rev over ranger or guardian or ele when these classes stop being viable at the top.

> > > > >

> > > > > If the way revs sustain themselves is the only fair one to fight..then it should be extended to everybody else while removing the current ones and yet..you complain about sword weaver which was based on the same idea of evading incoming attacks...but people called it OP...so eles should have heal burst?!...no people called it OP...and this goes for all other professions you see?!

> > > > >

> > > > > How exactly would you give the same tools that revs has to avoid instant death to another profession?

> > > >

> > > > Well for one ranger is being played in top tier matches again these days and u saying power shiro rev is easier to be as equally as effective compared to slbeast or core ranger? Cuz lol. A rev may have a higher skill ceiling than say ranger but its skill floor is significantly higher so... if its impossible to have actual perfect overall balance would u rather this scanario or the class with a lower skill floor also be able to match a class with a higher skill floor and ceiling when two equally skilled players are playing the two? I'll use ranger as a example as I kno u play it. I say buff rangers skill ceiling or potential to match revs while reworking all of its brainless carry mechanics out of it making it require more thoughtful play and skill to be effective with or nerf revs skill ceiling down so skilled players arnt monsters on it but add in some of condi revs brainless spam playstyle into power rev successfully dumbing the build down. What sounds healthier for the game?

> > >

> > > I have asked how would you accomplish this skill ceiling buff on other classes? You claim that revenant sustain/dmg ratio is balanced while being based on the timing of inbuilt evades and block/heal/boon uptime; at this point I wonder how would you make so that 2 skilled players ,one on a rev and another playing a different profession, would have a balanced fight with equal chance to take each one out.

> > >

> > > Between Glint aoe/elite and sword off hand ranged onehit burst, 2 teleports, all boons uptime (minus resistance without mallyx) , block/dash with staff........please why don't you try to explain me how we can match that same level of burst/sustain on other professions with something that you don't consider cheese?

> > >

> > >

> >

> > If were talking ranger as a example I'd drop the damage so hard on passive pet damage but have the pet skills when melded have good damage, id increase the CD on maul and make a successful hilt bash reduce CD by 50% not out right remove the cd(stupid carry design) the damage is already fine on maul. I'd speed up the ranger autos significantly and put the evade back in between the second and last sword hit cuz if u can time that last hit to avoid significant damage than the ranger should be rewarded with a evade, hilt bash also should get some damage returned to it as should a lot off the hard cc skill,not all but a lot of them. The long bow rapid fire damage is fine but CD should be be slightly increased, for braindead spam purposes lb autos should be unaffected by damage multipliers or boons. I could go on and I know in ways this sounds like a nerf but if these types of things are applied to all classes it wouldn't be bad. Traps like guards should have the cd stars to reset on activation not when placed so they cant be placed a second time on a opponent who just activated it. This game is so full of bad carry designs it's crazy.

>

> So you would "solve the issue" by totally destroying core and druid while keeping SlB intact it sounds like. What I mean is you are proposing the "drop the damage hard on ...pet", but give good damage merged. Well the only one who can "merge" is SLB. That is a horrible suggestion. Also that combo has been nerfed enough IMO, the only thing that needs to be reduced IS MERGED DAMAGE to balance IF ANYTHING.

>

> I dont play ranger much but I have played it enough to know that the Maul, hiltbash, maul combo has MAJOR tells and any player can easily avoid the hildbash and 2nd maul. you just move away. if you move away then the ranger has to try and move or use gs3 to leap to you and will then likely burn up its next opening strike bonus and lose the while daze bonus for the 2nd maul because of the time delay after bash combined with needing to use 3 skill before they can hit with 2 skill again and opening stike is on furry application only. In other words, the only way maul does good bash IS with thinking ahead and doing a a combination of skills with boon application either via utility or pet swap. the pet swap no longer works for SLB they use merge now.

>

> I think you have a distorted view of you own class and skill.

>

> Just like your suggestions for Mesmer. All your "class balance" suggestions tend to sounds more like YOU are one of the posters who DO try to KILL a CLASS TO REDUCE your COMPETITION.I think

>

> Rev and Guard are the ones that people should focus on destorying at this point.

>

> Heck lets just nerf them all into oblivion! Why the heck not just kill the entire game.

>

> Ohh wait the point of this thread is about WHY do we have to remove what we dont like to the detriment of other classes. ironically your post demonstrates why the forum comments arent usually constructive when balance is the topic. People tend to demonstrate the same clasxs BIAS that you have.

 

I main ranger and I agree with you on considering core/druid when making pet adjustments. People often forget that the loss of stats is built into the pet. The active (F2) on them is no different than a warrior executing their F1 burst - the exception being that the pet active doesn't really do any significant damage. The "passive" damage of the pet can be almost entirely negated and is shut down by condi/aoe/soft condis or even just not standing still (poor AI).

 

Where I disagree though, is while maul has an easy tell, it's quite easily spammable between its low cooldown and the reset with hilt bash. Add into the fact that greatsword still retains most of its defensive kit/mobility after the changes - greatsword is a very overloaded weapon kit.

It was originally designed as a defensive kit and to be honest I would much prefer they revert the unnecessary changes they made to greatsword. The evade needs to be returned to the last strike of the auto attack, damage should be lowered through removing the reset on maul through hilt bash, and the block needs the evade removed and put back to the ranged throw with cripple.

 

Tldr; greatsword changes were unnecessary and not asked for and they need to be reverted - this is **from a Ranger main**.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"Strider.7849" said:

> > @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Generally speaking, MMOs are not about playing a game accordingly to your rules , other people are trying to enjoy the game just as much as you , **nobody** has the rights to demand the removal of something simply because it's "unfun" to play against. Other players should have the same chances to kill your class just as much as you should have against their, if it's not fun for you to be stunlocked/feared chained/insta killed or whatever why would you think it'd be different for other people?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Less ego and more self-reflection....

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > So demanding removal of clearly unbalanced, broken, overstacked stuff that makes people just go straight for uninstall is not okay?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, as a customers, we do have a right to "demand" or rather ask for things if you like it or not, if these things will be "delivered" though it's a different story.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > You're kinda going against your own words in that post...

> > > > > > > > > > > > > You say " **nobody** has the rights to demand the removal of something simply because it's "unfun" to play against" and then "Other players should have the same chances to kill your class just as much as you should have against their", which is it then? There were/are things in the game that are clearly unbalanced/broken that need either complete removal or rework since they're overstacked too much without much counterplay.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > I see no connection between what can be considered broken/overperforming and what may force you to uninstall , if you'd be so kind to provide an example...

> > > > > > > > > > > It's gonna be difficult to write everything that was broken, so I'll just put few examples of pre-nerfed state builds: Condi Mirage(all versions, iframe spam says hi), Condi Thief(even currently is kitten, condi spam says hi), Druid(side-noder, ancient seed spam says hi), Warrior(all versions, overstacked Full-counter/rampage says hi), Chronomancer(bunker and phantasm says hi), Fireweaver(condi/evasion spam says hi), Hambow(stunlock says hi), Turret Engi(AI says hi), Minionmancer(AI says hi) and many more that made people quit since 2012.

> > > > > > > > > > > Don't know about you, but I don't think a lot of people enjoy being trashed without any kind of counterplay, even if they were trying to tune their build to counter XYZ, some were straight-up uncounterable.

> > > > > > > > > > > Like 1shots from stealth, overspam of condies, unkillable bunkers(current era to a degree). A lot of people quit because of memes like that.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > This thread was never against the idea of removing OP specs and more against the idea that removing what makes a class competitive should be removed, toning down is one thing....completely removing the build is another.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > If one spec is supposed to be duel...then don't go and ask to remove everything that makes that build capable of duelling in the first place:

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > -a side noder must have enough sustain to against sudden +1 if not it cannot be a side noder....no I don't mean being able to 1vs3+ for hours

> > > > > > > > > > -a support spec must be able to sustain enough pressure if not it cannot support anybody...no I don't mean being able to hold all enemy team for 5m+

> > > > > > > > > > -a burst spec supposed to burst you down...no I don't mean one shot from stealth...but enough to scare you or kill you if can't react fast enough

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Removal of what annoys you =/ balance let's all make this straight once and for all

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Ur not wrong man, been in this game coming on 7 yrs now and barely play but the community has gotten progressively worse as literally any skill or tactic a class uses to be effective will naturally spawn a nerf post here and there but in this community they'll be spammed. Then after some time anet devs who can't balance on their own accord will nerf the class so that skill or tactic is useless all while far more problematic skills and tactics go unchanged due to them being more accepted either thru class popularity or simply not being one of the few classes constantly hated on by the community.

> > > > > > > > > The funny thing is the community wonders why the population is abysmally low and declining and on top complain about build deversity. The games basically amounted to everyone picking the most brainless cheese carry build in hope's to be effective against players doing the same. So many things in this games pvp need to be reworked including anets devs approach regarding the modes.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > You defend revenants saying they're balanced...while a team win a monthly tournaments with 3 revs in it....wvw is full of Mallyx revs from small scale roaming to frontline zerging and GvG fights.....sidenoders in pvp...unkillable sidenoders with enough experience........in the same instance you claim that **tempest** is broken lol when every team with a tempest lost to FB team, tempests don't get stacked in WvW and neither can roam, can't sidenode for kitten and yet...revenant is balanced while tempest is broken..such an example of integrity you are

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > That's the exact mentality I'm speaking about. Revs are not a easy class to play, lower ranks u see a rev usually their free kills. Their high evades/sustain require using properly times evade frames from skills, one block on staff, shiro roll back requiring energy resource and a heal that needs to be used while taking decent dps for it to be very effective. Yeah revs a monster if ur a good player which is how it should be and I also other classes should be brought up to that lv of effectiveness for the work put in. I'm against classes mechanics like necro where u spam and when close to death press a keybind and bam second hp bar with damage reduction, thsts brainless, add in fear spam and awesome. Or guards that stand in one spot even low rank spamming condi's and sustain skill and being far more effective than they should be for work put in just like necro. Or maybe spam autos from range while a pet hits as hard as a player and when u focus pet as many say u just allow the ranger to keep free hitting u than if u get in close bam barrier, protection and stability or trap dropped and invisible with superspeed. The game is filled with brainless spam carry builds due to anets inability to balance a all classes do everything approach and it's best to nerf a effective class that requires skill to play? How many top streamers that are viewed as very highly skilled in the game tried rev since last patch drop and continued to do so and didnt go back to their main? None. They all usually make comments when jumping on power rev and state "I'm not great on rev but I'm rolling it cuz team needs one".

> > > > > > > Rev is one of the few classes that require skill to be effective in high tier play and is separate from half these brainless spam classes that yeah ur ranger now falls into and the community wants it nerfed lol no surprise.

> > > > > > > Also it's not black and white sometime classes are stacked due to them being effective which doesn't always equate to OP just like skills and tactics that are effective don't automatically mean their op, where does this mentality come from?

> > > > > > > It's easy to tell if a build is being stacked due to being OP or brainless but still effective such as post nerf core necro, condi rev/ren, cindi thief, all burn specs that spam burns due to the burst dps burn tics do post patch vs power dps, condo and power ranger due to multiple brainless effective build possibilities and so on.

> > > > > > > Also a class that's dominant when stacked doesn't inherently make a spec op as thsts the fault of the system allowing class stacking and a class system promoting low class diversity. If a class is nerfed so its ineffective having 2 on a team how do u nerf that in a way that allows having one to remain effective? If having two is a detriment in a game designed with all classes do everything method than one would be detrimental as well as that method of thinking would only work in a game with holly trinity as having 3 dps and 2 tanks with no healer would be a detriment.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If the classes you complain about would be as strong as you say...then we would see much more of them at high tier and yet...this doesn't happen, TOP players are supposed to be even more devastating on a class and yet...they pick rev over ranger or guardian or ele when these classes stop being viable at the top.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If the way revs sustain themselves is the only fair one to fight..then it should be extended to everybody else while removing the current ones and yet..you complain about sword weaver which was based on the same idea of evading incoming attacks...but people called it OP...so eles should have heal burst?!...no people called it OP...and this goes for all other professions you see?!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > How exactly would you give the same tools that revs has to avoid instant death to another profession?

> > > > >

> > > > > Well for one ranger is being played in top tier matches again these days and u saying power shiro rev is easier to be as equally as effective compared to slbeast or core ranger? Cuz lol. A rev may have a higher skill ceiling than say ranger but its skill floor is significantly higher so... if its impossible to have actual perfect overall balance would u rather this scanario or the class with a lower skill floor also be able to match a class with a higher skill floor and ceiling when two equally skilled players are playing the two? I'll use ranger as a example as I kno u play it. I say buff rangers skill ceiling or potential to match revs while reworking all of its brainless carry mechanics out of it making it require more thoughtful play and skill to be effective with or nerf revs skill ceiling down so skilled players arnt monsters on it but add in some of condi revs brainless spam playstyle into power rev successfully dumbing the build down. What sounds healthier for the game?

> > > >

> > > > I have asked how would you accomplish this skill ceiling buff on other classes? You claim that revenant sustain/dmg ratio is balanced while being based on the timing of inbuilt evades and block/heal/boon uptime; at this point I wonder how would you make so that 2 skilled players ,one on a rev and another playing a different profession, would have a balanced fight with equal chance to take each one out.

> > > >

> > > > Between Glint aoe/elite and sword off hand ranged onehit burst, 2 teleports, all boons uptime (minus resistance without mallyx) , block/dash with staff........please why don't you try to explain me how we can match that same level of burst/sustain on other professions with something that you don't consider cheese?

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > If were talking ranger as a example I'd drop the damage so hard on passive pet damage but have the pet skills when melded have good damage, id increase the CD on maul and make a successful hilt bash reduce CD by 50% not out right remove the cd(stupid carry design) the damage is already fine on maul. I'd speed up the ranger autos significantly and put the evade back in between the second and last sword hit cuz if u can time that last hit to avoid significant damage than the ranger should be rewarded with a evade, hilt bash also should get some damage returned to it as should a lot off the hard cc skill,not all but a lot of them. The long bow rapid fire damage is fine but CD should be be slightly increased, for braindead spam purposes lb autos should be unaffected by damage multipliers or boons. I could go on and I know in ways this sounds like a nerf but if these types of things are applied to all classes it wouldn't be bad. Traps like guards should have the cd stars to reset on activation not when placed so they cant be placed a second time on a opponent who just activated it. This game is so full of bad carry designs it's crazy.

> >

> > So you would "solve the issue" by totally destroying core and druid while keeping SlB intact it sounds like. What I mean is you are proposing the "drop the damage hard on ...pet", but give good damage merged. Well the only one who can "merge" is SLB. That is a horrible suggestion. Also that combo has been nerfed enough IMO, the only thing that needs to be reduced IS MERGED DAMAGE to balance IF ANYTHING.

> >

> > I dont play ranger much but I have played it enough to know that the Maul, hiltbash, maul combo has MAJOR tells and any player can easily avoid the hildbash and 2nd maul. you just move away. if you move away then the ranger has to try and move or use gs3 to leap to you and will then likely burn up its next opening strike bonus and lose the while daze bonus for the 2nd maul because of the time delay after bash combined with needing to use 3 skill before they can hit with 2 skill again and opening stike is on furry application only. In other words, the only way maul does good bash IS with thinking ahead and doing a a combination of skills with boon application either via utility or pet swap. the pet swap no longer works for SLB they use merge now.

> >

> > I think you have a distorted view of you own class and skill.

> >

> > Just like your suggestions for Mesmer. All your "class balance" suggestions tend to sounds more like YOU are one of the posters who DO try to KILL a CLASS TO REDUCE your COMPETITION.I think

> >

> > Rev and Guard are the ones that people should focus on destorying at this point.

> >

> > Heck lets just nerf them all into oblivion! Why the heck not just kill the entire game.

> >

> > Ohh wait the point of this thread is about WHY do we have to remove what we dont like to the detriment of other classes. ironically your post demonstrates why the forum comments arent usually constructive when balance is the topic. People tend to demonstrate the same clasxs BIAS that you have.

>

> I main ranger and I agree with you on considering core/druid when making pet adjustments. People often forget that the loss of stats is built into the pet. The active (F2) on them is no different than a warrior executing their F1 burst - the exception being that the pet active doesn't really do any significant damage. The "passive" damage of the pet can be almost entirely negated and is shut down by condi/aoe/soft condis or even just not standing still (poor AI).

>

> Where I disagree though, is while maul has an easy tell, it's quite easily spammable between its low cooldown and the reset with hilt bash. Add into the fact that greatsword still retains most of its defensive kit/mobility after the changes - greatsword is a very overloaded weapon kit.

> It was originally designed as a defensive kit and to be honest I would much prefer they revert the unnecessary changes they made to greatsword. The evade needs to be returned to the last strike of the auto attack, damage should be lowered through removing the reset on maul through hilt bash, and the block needs the evade removed and put back to the ranged throw with cripple.

>

> Tldr; greatsword changes were unnecessary and not asked for and they need to be reverted - this is **from a Ranger main**.

 

Sry but no one forgets loss of stats on ranger due to pets existing cuz it holds no weight. A ranger with its pr taken out of the equation still does great damage due to non pet damage modifiers. Think of the damage a ranger can do with long bow and maul etc with all of its damage multipliers. If anet wasn't garbage at balance and the actually lowered rangers stats to actually balance them with regards to pets existence than I'd agree, but they didn't.

[Strider.7849]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > @"Strider.7849" said:

> > > @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Generally speaking, MMOs are not about playing a game accordingly to your rules , other people are trying to enjoy the game just as much as you , **nobody** has the rights to demand the removal of something simply because it's "unfun" to play against. Other players should have the same chances to kill your class just as much as you should have against their, if it's not fun for you to be stunlocked/feared chained/insta killed or whatever why would you think it'd be different for other people?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Less ego and more self-reflection....

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > So demanding removal of clearly unbalanced, broken, overstacked stuff that makes people just go straight for uninstall is not okay?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, as a customers, we do have a right to "demand" or rather ask for things if you like it or not, if these things will be "delivered" though it's a different story.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're kinda going against your own words in that post...

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > You say " **nobody** has the rights to demand the removal of something simply because it's "unfun" to play against" and then "Other players should have the same chances to kill your class just as much as you should have against their", which is it then? There were/are things in the game that are clearly unbalanced/broken that need either complete removal or rework since they're overstacked too much without much counterplay.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > I see no connection between what can be considered broken/overperforming and what may force you to uninstall , if you'd be so kind to provide an example...

> > > > > > > > > > > > It's gonna be difficult to write everything that was broken, so I'll just put few examples of pre-nerfed state builds: Condi Mirage(all versions, iframe spam says hi), Condi Thief(even currently is kitten, condi spam says hi), Druid(side-noder, ancient seed spam says hi), Warrior(all versions, overstacked Full-counter/rampage says hi), Chronomancer(bunker and phantasm says hi), Fireweaver(condi/evasion spam says hi), Hambow(stunlock says hi), Turret Engi(AI says hi), Minionmancer(AI says hi) and many more that made people quit since 2012.

> > > > > > > > > > > > Don't know about you, but I don't think a lot of people enjoy being trashed without any kind of counterplay, even if they were trying to tune their build to counter XYZ, some were straight-up uncounterable.

> > > > > > > > > > > > Like 1shots from stealth, overspam of condies, unkillable bunkers(current era to a degree). A lot of people quit because of memes like that.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > This thread was never against the idea of removing OP specs and more against the idea that removing what makes a class competitive should be removed, toning down is one thing....completely removing the build is another.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > If one spec is supposed to be duel...then don't go and ask to remove everything that makes that build capable of duelling in the first place:

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > -a side noder must have enough sustain to against sudden +1 if not it cannot be a side noder....no I don't mean being able to 1vs3+ for hours

> > > > > > > > > > > -a support spec must be able to sustain enough pressure if not it cannot support anybody...no I don't mean being able to hold all enemy team for 5m+

> > > > > > > > > > > -a burst spec supposed to burst you down...no I don't mean one shot from stealth...but enough to scare you or kill you if can't react fast enough

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Removal of what annoys you =/ balance let's all make this straight once and for all

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Ur not wrong man, been in this game coming on 7 yrs now and barely play but the community has gotten progressively worse as literally any skill or tactic a class uses to be effective will naturally spawn a nerf post here and there but in this community they'll be spammed. Then after some time anet devs who can't balance on their own accord will nerf the class so that skill or tactic is useless all while far more problematic skills and tactics go unchanged due to them being more accepted either thru class popularity or simply not being one of the few classes constantly hated on by the community.

> > > > > > > > > > The funny thing is the community wonders why the population is abysmally low and declining and on top complain about build deversity. The games basically amounted to everyone picking the most brainless cheese carry build in hope's to be effective against players doing the same. So many things in this games pvp need to be reworked including anets devs approach regarding the modes.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > You defend revenants saying they're balanced...while a team win a monthly tournaments with 3 revs in it....wvw is full of Mallyx revs from small scale roaming to frontline zerging and GvG fights.....sidenoders in pvp...unkillable sidenoders with enough experience........in the same instance you claim that **tempest** is broken lol when every team with a tempest lost to FB team, tempests don't get stacked in WvW and neither can roam, can't sidenode for kitten and yet...revenant is balanced while tempest is broken..such an example of integrity you are

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > That's the exact mentality I'm speaking about. Revs are not a easy class to play, lower ranks u see a rev usually their free kills. Their high evades/sustain require using properly times evade frames from skills, one block on staff, shiro roll back requiring energy resource and a heal that needs to be used while taking decent dps for it to be very effective. Yeah revs a monster if ur a good player which is how it should be and I also other classes should be brought up to that lv of effectiveness for the work put in. I'm against classes mechanics like necro where u spam and when close to death press a keybind and bam second hp bar with damage reduction, thsts brainless, add in fear spam and awesome. Or guards that stand in one spot even low rank spamming condi's and sustain skill and being far more effective than they should be for work put in just like necro. Or maybe spam autos from range while a pet hits as hard as a player and when u focus pet as many say u just allow the ranger to keep free hitting u than if u get in close bam barrier, protection and stability or trap dropped and invisible with superspeed. The game is filled with brainless spam carry builds due to anets inability to balance a all classes do everything approach and it's best to nerf a effective class that requires skill to play? How many top streamers that are viewed as very highly skilled in the game tried rev since last patch drop and continued to do so and didnt go back to their main? None. They all usually make comments when jumping on power rev and state "I'm not great on rev but I'm rolling it cuz team needs one".

> > > > > > > > Rev is one of the few classes that require skill to be effective in high tier play and is separate from half these brainless spam classes that yeah ur ranger now falls into and the community wants it nerfed lol no surprise.

> > > > > > > > Also it's not black and white sometime classes are stacked due to them being effective which doesn't always equate to OP just like skills and tactics that are effective don't automatically mean their op, where does this mentality come from?

> > > > > > > > It's easy to tell if a build is being stacked due to being OP or brainless but still effective such as post nerf core necro, condi rev/ren, cindi thief, all burn specs that spam burns due to the burst dps burn tics do post patch vs power dps, condo and power ranger due to multiple brainless effective build possibilities and so on.

> > > > > > > > Also a class that's dominant when stacked doesn't inherently make a spec op as thsts the fault of the system allowing class stacking and a class system promoting low class diversity. If a class is nerfed so its ineffective having 2 on a team how do u nerf that in a way that allows having one to remain effective? If having two is a detriment in a game designed with all classes do everything method than one would be detrimental as well as that method of thinking would only work in a game with holly trinity as having 3 dps and 2 tanks with no healer would be a detriment.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If the classes you complain about would be as strong as you say...then we would see much more of them at high tier and yet...this doesn't happen, TOP players are supposed to be even more devastating on a class and yet...they pick rev over ranger or guardian or ele when these classes stop being viable at the top.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If the way revs sustain themselves is the only fair one to fight..then it should be extended to everybody else while removing the current ones and yet..you complain about sword weaver which was based on the same idea of evading incoming attacks...but people called it OP...so eles should have heal burst?!...no people called it OP...and this goes for all other professions you see?!

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > How exactly would you give the same tools that revs has to avoid instant death to another profession?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Well for one ranger is being played in top tier matches again these days and u saying power shiro rev is easier to be as equally as effective compared to slbeast or core ranger? Cuz lol. A rev may have a higher skill ceiling than say ranger but its skill floor is significantly higher so... if its impossible to have actual perfect overall balance would u rather this scanario or the class with a lower skill floor also be able to match a class with a higher skill floor and ceiling when two equally skilled players are playing the two? I'll use ranger as a example as I kno u play it. I say buff rangers skill ceiling or potential to match revs while reworking all of its brainless carry mechanics out of it making it require more thoughtful play and skill to be effective with or nerf revs skill ceiling down so skilled players arnt monsters on it but add in some of condi revs brainless spam playstyle into power rev successfully dumbing the build down. What sounds healthier for the game?

> > > > >

> > > > > I have asked how would you accomplish this skill ceiling buff on other classes? You claim that revenant sustain/dmg ratio is balanced while being based on the timing of inbuilt evades and block/heal/boon uptime; at this point I wonder how would you make so that 2 skilled players ,one on a rev and another playing a different profession, would have a balanced fight with equal chance to take each one out.

> > > > >

> > > > > Between Glint aoe/elite and sword off hand ranged onehit burst, 2 teleports, all boons uptime (minus resistance without mallyx) , block/dash with staff........please why don't you try to explain me how we can match that same level of burst/sustain on other professions with something that you don't consider cheese?

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > If were talking ranger as a example I'd drop the damage so hard on passive pet damage but have the pet skills when melded have good damage, id increase the CD on maul and make a successful hilt bash reduce CD by 50% not out right remove the cd(stupid carry design) the damage is already fine on maul. I'd speed up the ranger autos significantly and put the evade back in between the second and last sword hit cuz if u can time that last hit to avoid significant damage than the ranger should be rewarded with a evade, hilt bash also should get some damage returned to it as should a lot off the hard cc skill,not all but a lot of them. The long bow rapid fire damage is fine but CD should be be slightly increased, for braindead spam purposes lb autos should be unaffected by damage multipliers or boons. I could go on and I know in ways this sounds like a nerf but if these types of things are applied to all classes it wouldn't be bad. Traps like guards should have the cd stars to reset on activation not when placed so they cant be placed a second time on a opponent who just activated it. This game is so full of bad carry designs it's crazy.

> > >

> > > So you would "solve the issue" by totally destroying core and druid while keeping SlB intact it sounds like. What I mean is you are proposing the "drop the damage hard on ...pet", but give good damage merged. Well the only one who can "merge" is SLB. That is a horrible suggestion. Also that combo has been nerfed enough IMO, the only thing that needs to be reduced IS MERGED DAMAGE to balance IF ANYTHING.

> > >

> > > I dont play ranger much but I have played it enough to know that the Maul, hiltbash, maul combo has MAJOR tells and any player can easily avoid the hildbash and 2nd maul. you just move away. if you move away then the ranger has to try and move or use gs3 to leap to you and will then likely burn up its next opening strike bonus and lose the while daze bonus for the 2nd maul because of the time delay after bash combined with needing to use 3 skill before they can hit with 2 skill again and opening stike is on furry application only. In other words, the only way maul does good bash IS with thinking ahead and doing a a combination of skills with boon application either via utility or pet swap. the pet swap no longer works for SLB they use merge now.

> > >

> > > I think you have a distorted view of you own class and skill.

> > >

> > > Just like your suggestions for Mesmer. All your "class balance" suggestions tend to sounds more like YOU are one of the posters who DO try to KILL a CLASS TO REDUCE your COMPETITION.I think

> > >

> > > Rev and Guard are the ones that people should focus on destorying at this point.

> > >

> > > Heck lets just nerf them all into oblivion! Why the heck not just kill the entire game.

> > >

> > > Ohh wait the point of this thread is about WHY do we have to remove what we dont like to the detriment of other classes. ironically your post demonstrates why the forum comments arent usually constructive when balance is the topic. People tend to demonstrate the same clasxs BIAS that you have.

> >

> > I main ranger and I agree with you on considering core/druid when making pet adjustments. People often forget that the loss of stats is built into the pet. The active (F2) on them is no different than a warrior executing their F1 burst - the exception being that the pet active doesn't really do any significant damage. The "passive" damage of the pet can be almost entirely negated and is shut down by condi/aoe/soft condis or even just not standing still (poor AI).

> >

> > Where I disagree though, is while maul has an easy tell, it's quite easily spammable between its low cooldown and the reset with hilt bash. Add into the fact that greatsword still retains most of its defensive kit/mobility after the changes - greatsword is a very overloaded weapon kit.

> > It was originally designed as a defensive kit and to be honest I would much prefer they revert the unnecessary changes they made to greatsword. The evade needs to be returned to the last strike of the auto attack, damage should be lowered through removing the reset on maul through hilt bash, and the block needs the evade removed and put back to the ranged throw with cripple.

> >

> > Tldr; greatsword changes were unnecessary and not asked for and they need to be reverted - this is **from a Ranger main**.

>

> Sry but no one forgets loss of stats on ranger due to pets existing cuz it holds no weight. A ranger with its pr taken out of the equation still does great damage due to non pet damage modifiers. Think of the damage a ranger can do with long bow and maul etc with all of its damage multipliers. If anet wasn't garbage at balance and the actually lowered rangers stats to actually balance them with regards to pets existence than I'd agree, but they didn't.

 

My response was towards what the poster had commented on, not the entire overview of ranger.

 

As for what you said, those damage multipliers are primarily focused on what? It's not druid as they make very little use of them. Your target focus is definitely on core and soulbeast. Let's look further at what you mentioned. Greatsword can get massive boosts, I don't disagree with that - but I had stated in the previous post that it does need toning down.

 

If you're looking at core that would be in conjunction with primarily the marksmanship line. Again, it's greatsword that makes the most use of opening strike and increased damage on Cc with the multipliers. Longbow has been so over-nerfed the auto attack damage is almost as strong as rapidfire. You really don't get much out of longbow damage unless you're playing glass/high damage. Have you seen the bunker core ranger with longbow and their damage? Most of the complaints were from the sustained damage with decent bursts from.. yet again, greatsword.

 

Soulbeast is where these modifiers (some of which now apply to the user rather than the pet) become really dangerous because the merging with the pet + the modifiers + high burst on greatsword or axe really makes it explosive.

 

I feel that you read through these forums taking ideas from here and there and regurgitating them without actual care for real balance. That comment we both know you stole from an old thread on pre-nerfed ranger and are trying to pawn it off now to justify that the entire ranger class needs to be destroyed. My question to you, is do you have any original thoughts of your own?

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"Strider.7849" said:

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > @"Strider.7849" said:

> > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Generally speaking, MMOs are not about playing a game accordingly to your rules , other people are trying to enjoy the game just as much as you , **nobody** has the rights to demand the removal of something simply because it's "unfun" to play against. Other players should have the same chances to kill your class just as much as you should have against their, if it's not fun for you to be stunlocked/feared chained/insta killed or whatever why would you think it'd be different for other people?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Less ego and more self-reflection....

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So demanding removal of clearly unbalanced, broken, overstacked stuff that makes people just go straight for uninstall is not okay?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, as a customers, we do have a right to "demand" or rather ask for things if you like it or not, if these things will be "delivered" though it's a different story.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're kinda going against your own words in that post...

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You say " **nobody** has the rights to demand the removal of something simply because it's "unfun" to play against" and then "Other players should have the same chances to kill your class just as much as you should have against their", which is it then? There were/are things in the game that are clearly unbalanced/broken that need either complete removal or rework since they're overstacked too much without much counterplay.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see no connection between what can be considered broken/overperforming and what may force you to uninstall , if you'd be so kind to provide an example...

> > > > > > > > > > > > > It's gonna be difficult to write everything that was broken, so I'll just put few examples of pre-nerfed state builds: Condi Mirage(all versions, iframe spam says hi), Condi Thief(even currently is kitten, condi spam says hi), Druid(side-noder, ancient seed spam says hi), Warrior(all versions, overstacked Full-counter/rampage says hi), Chronomancer(bunker and phantasm says hi), Fireweaver(condi/evasion spam says hi), Hambow(stunlock says hi), Turret Engi(AI says hi), Minionmancer(AI says hi) and many more that made people quit since 2012.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't know about you, but I don't think a lot of people enjoy being trashed without any kind of counterplay, even if they were trying to tune their build to counter XYZ, some were straight-up uncounterable.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Like 1shots from stealth, overspam of condies, unkillable bunkers(current era to a degree). A lot of people quit because of memes like that.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > This thread was never against the idea of removing OP specs and more against the idea that removing what makes a class competitive should be removed, toning down is one thing....completely removing the build is another.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > If one spec is supposed to be duel...then don't go and ask to remove everything that makes that build capable of duelling in the first place:

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > -a side noder must have enough sustain to against sudden +1 if not it cannot be a side noder....no I don't mean being able to 1vs3+ for hours

> > > > > > > > > > > > -a support spec must be able to sustain enough pressure if not it cannot support anybody...no I don't mean being able to hold all enemy team for 5m+

> > > > > > > > > > > > -a burst spec supposed to burst you down...no I don't mean one shot from stealth...but enough to scare you or kill you if can't react fast enough

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Removal of what annoys you =/ balance let's all make this straight once and for all

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Ur not wrong man, been in this game coming on 7 yrs now and barely play but the community has gotten progressively worse as literally any skill or tactic a class uses to be effective will naturally spawn a nerf post here and there but in this community they'll be spammed. Then after some time anet devs who can't balance on their own accord will nerf the class so that skill or tactic is useless all while far more problematic skills and tactics go unchanged due to them being more accepted either thru class popularity or simply not being one of the few classes constantly hated on by the community.

> > > > > > > > > > > The funny thing is the community wonders why the population is abysmally low and declining and on top complain about build deversity. The games basically amounted to everyone picking the most brainless cheese carry build in hope's to be effective against players doing the same. So many things in this games pvp need to be reworked including anets devs approach regarding the modes.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > You defend revenants saying they're balanced...while a team win a monthly tournaments with 3 revs in it....wvw is full of Mallyx revs from small scale roaming to frontline zerging and GvG fights.....sidenoders in pvp...unkillable sidenoders with enough experience........in the same instance you claim that **tempest** is broken lol when every team with a tempest lost to FB team, tempests don't get stacked in WvW and neither can roam, can't sidenode for kitten and yet...revenant is balanced while tempest is broken..such an example of integrity you are

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > That's the exact mentality I'm speaking about. Revs are not a easy class to play, lower ranks u see a rev usually their free kills. Their high evades/sustain require using properly times evade frames from skills, one block on staff, shiro roll back requiring energy resource and a heal that needs to be used while taking decent dps for it to be very effective. Yeah revs a monster if ur a good player which is how it should be and I also other classes should be brought up to that lv of effectiveness for the work put in. I'm against classes mechanics like necro where u spam and when close to death press a keybind and bam second hp bar with damage reduction, thsts brainless, add in fear spam and awesome. Or guards that stand in one spot even low rank spamming condi's and sustain skill and being far more effective than they should be for work put in just like necro. Or maybe spam autos from range while a pet hits as hard as a player and when u focus pet as many say u just allow the ranger to keep free hitting u than if u get in close bam barrier, protection and stability or trap dropped and invisible with superspeed. The game is filled with brainless spam carry builds due to anets inability to balance a all classes do everything approach and it's best to nerf a effective class that requires skill to play? How many top streamers that are viewed as very highly skilled in the game tried rev since last patch drop and continued to do so and didnt go back to their main? None. They all usually make comments when jumping on power rev and state "I'm not great on rev but I'm rolling it cuz team needs one".

> > > > > > > > > Rev is one of the few classes that require skill to be effective in high tier play and is separate from half these brainless spam classes that yeah ur ranger now falls into and the community wants it nerfed lol no surprise.

> > > > > > > > > Also it's not black and white sometime classes are stacked due to them being effective which doesn't always equate to OP just like skills and tactics that are effective don't automatically mean their op, where does this mentality come from?

> > > > > > > > > It's easy to tell if a build is being stacked due to being OP or brainless but still effective such as post nerf core necro, condi rev/ren, cindi thief, all burn specs that spam burns due to the burst dps burn tics do post patch vs power dps, condo and power ranger due to multiple brainless effective build possibilities and so on.

> > > > > > > > > Also a class that's dominant when stacked doesn't inherently make a spec op as thsts the fault of the system allowing class stacking and a class system promoting low class diversity. If a class is nerfed so its ineffective having 2 on a team how do u nerf that in a way that allows having one to remain effective? If having two is a detriment in a game designed with all classes do everything method than one would be detrimental as well as that method of thinking would only work in a game with holly trinity as having 3 dps and 2 tanks with no healer would be a detriment.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > If the classes you complain about would be as strong as you say...then we would see much more of them at high tier and yet...this doesn't happen, TOP players are supposed to be even more devastating on a class and yet...they pick rev over ranger or guardian or ele when these classes stop being viable at the top.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > If the way revs sustain themselves is the only fair one to fight..then it should be extended to everybody else while removing the current ones and yet..you complain about sword weaver which was based on the same idea of evading incoming attacks...but people called it OP...so eles should have heal burst?!...no people called it OP...and this goes for all other professions you see?!

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > How exactly would you give the same tools that revs has to avoid instant death to another profession?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Well for one ranger is being played in top tier matches again these days and u saying power shiro rev is easier to be as equally as effective compared to slbeast or core ranger? Cuz lol. A rev may have a higher skill ceiling than say ranger but its skill floor is significantly higher so... if its impossible to have actual perfect overall balance would u rather this scanario or the class with a lower skill floor also be able to match a class with a higher skill floor and ceiling when two equally skilled players are playing the two? I'll use ranger as a example as I kno u play it. I say buff rangers skill ceiling or potential to match revs while reworking all of its brainless carry mechanics out of it making it require more thoughtful play and skill to be effective with or nerf revs skill ceiling down so skilled players arnt monsters on it but add in some of condi revs brainless spam playstyle into power rev successfully dumbing the build down. What sounds healthier for the game?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I have asked how would you accomplish this skill ceiling buff on other classes? You claim that revenant sustain/dmg ratio is balanced while being based on the timing of inbuilt evades and block/heal/boon uptime; at this point I wonder how would you make so that 2 skilled players ,one on a rev and another playing a different profession, would have a balanced fight with equal chance to take each one out.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Between Glint aoe/elite and sword off hand ranged onehit burst, 2 teleports, all boons uptime (minus resistance without mallyx) , block/dash with staff........please why don't you try to explain me how we can match that same level of burst/sustain on other professions with something that you don't consider cheese?

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > If were talking ranger as a example I'd drop the damage so hard on passive pet damage but have the pet skills when melded have good damage, id increase the CD on maul and make a successful hilt bash reduce CD by 50% not out right remove the cd(stupid carry design) the damage is already fine on maul. I'd speed up the ranger autos significantly and put the evade back in between the second and last sword hit cuz if u can time that last hit to avoid significant damage than the ranger should be rewarded with a evade, hilt bash also should get some damage returned to it as should a lot off the hard cc skill,not all but a lot of them. The long bow rapid fire damage is fine but CD should be be slightly increased, for braindead spam purposes lb autos should be unaffected by damage multipliers or boons. I could go on and I know in ways this sounds like a nerf but if these types of things are applied to all classes it wouldn't be bad. Traps like guards should have the cd stars to reset on activation not when placed so they cant be placed a second time on a opponent who just activated it. This game is so full of bad carry designs it's crazy.

> > > >

> > > > So you would "solve the issue" by totally destroying core and druid while keeping SlB intact it sounds like. What I mean is you are proposing the "drop the damage hard on ...pet", but give good damage merged. Well the only one who can "merge" is SLB. That is a horrible suggestion. Also that combo has been nerfed enough IMO, the only thing that needs to be reduced IS MERGED DAMAGE to balance IF ANYTHING.

> > > >

> > > > I dont play ranger much but I have played it enough to know that the Maul, hiltbash, maul combo has MAJOR tells and any player can easily avoid the hildbash and 2nd maul. you just move away. if you move away then the ranger has to try and move or use gs3 to leap to you and will then likely burn up its next opening strike bonus and lose the while daze bonus for the 2nd maul because of the time delay after bash combined with needing to use 3 skill before they can hit with 2 skill again and opening stike is on furry application only. In other words, the only way maul does good bash IS with thinking ahead and doing a a combination of skills with boon application either via utility or pet swap. the pet swap no longer works for SLB they use merge now.

> > > >

> > > > I think you have a distorted view of you own class and skill.

> > > >

> > > > Just like your suggestions for Mesmer. All your "class balance" suggestions tend to sounds more like YOU are one of the posters who DO try to KILL a CLASS TO REDUCE your COMPETITION.I think

> > > >

> > > > Rev and Guard are the ones that people should focus on destorying at this point.

> > > >

> > > > Heck lets just nerf them all into oblivion! Why the heck not just kill the entire game.

> > > >

> > > > Ohh wait the point of this thread is about WHY do we have to remove what we dont like to the detriment of other classes. ironically your post demonstrates why the forum comments arent usually constructive when balance is the topic. People tend to demonstrate the same clasxs BIAS that you have.

> > >

> > > I main ranger and I agree with you on considering core/druid when making pet adjustments. People often forget that the loss of stats is built into the pet. The active (F2) on them is no different than a warrior executing their F1 burst - the exception being that the pet active doesn't really do any significant damage. The "passive" damage of the pet can be almost entirely negated and is shut down by condi/aoe/soft condis or even just not standing still (poor AI).

> > >

> > > Where I disagree though, is while maul has an easy tell, it's quite easily spammable between its low cooldown and the reset with hilt bash. Add into the fact that greatsword still retains most of its defensive kit/mobility after the changes - greatsword is a very overloaded weapon kit.

> > > It was originally designed as a defensive kit and to be honest I would much prefer they revert the unnecessary changes they made to greatsword. The evade needs to be returned to the last strike of the auto attack, damage should be lowered through removing the reset on maul through hilt bash, and the block needs the evade removed and put back to the ranged throw with cripple.

> > >

> > > Tldr; greatsword changes were unnecessary and not asked for and they need to be reverted - this is **from a Ranger main**.

> >

> > Sry but no one forgets loss of stats on ranger due to pets existing cuz it holds no weight. A ranger with its pr taken out of the equation still does great damage due to non pet damage modifiers. Think of the damage a ranger can do with long bow and maul etc with all of its damage multipliers. If anet wasn't garbage at balance and the actually lowered rangers stats to actually balance them with regards to pets existence than I'd agree, but they didn't.

>

> My response was towards what the poster had commented on, not the entire overview of ranger.

>

> As for what you said, those damage multipliers are primarily focused on what? It's not druid as they make very little use of them. Your target focus is definitely on core and soulbeast. Let's look further at what you mentioned. Greatsword can get massive boosts, I don't disagree with that - but I had stated in the previous post that it does need toning down.

>

> If you're looking at core that would be in conjunction with primarily the marksmanship line. Again, it's greatsword that makes the most use of opening strike and increased damage on Cc with the multipliers. Longbow has been so over-nerfed the auto attack damage is almost as strong as rapidfire. You really don't get much out of longbow damage unless you're playing glass/high damage. Have you seen the bunker core ranger with longbow and their damage? Most of the complaints were from the sustained damage with decent bursts from.. yet again, greatsword.

>

> Soulbeast is where these modifiers (some of which now apply to the user rather than the pet) become really dangerous because the merging with the pet + the modifiers + high burst on greatsword or axe really makes it explosive.

>

> I feel that you read through these forums taking ideas from here and there and regurgitating them without actual care for real balance. That comment we both know you stole from an old thread on pre-nerfed ranger and are trying to pawn it off now to justify that the entire ranger class needs to be destroyed. My question to you, is do you have any original thoughts of your own?

 

U keep bringing up druid and if u looked thru my past posts druid is one of the few specs in this game that needs another good rework as in net buffs to actually make it viable at what it should be good at, FB rival for support. Obviously the changes I was mentioning would have specific alterations/changes regarding each spec, I was just quickly mentioning things off top of my head ways of making ranger more skillfull in its playstyles.

Although I think druid needs love entangled hp needs lowered to represent the damage drop just as revive speed and downed hp should have also been accounted for such. These are amateur mistakes dev with experience should not have easily overlooked.

[Moradorin.6217]

> @"Strider.7849" said:

> > @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Generally speaking, MMOs are not about playing a game accordingly to your rules , other people are trying to enjoy the game just as much as you , **nobody** has the rights to demand the removal of something simply because it's "unfun" to play against. Other players should have the same chances to kill your class just as much as you should have against their, if it's not fun for you to be stunlocked/feared chained/insta killed or whatever why would you think it'd be different for other people?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Less ego and more self-reflection....

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > So demanding removal of clearly unbalanced, broken, overstacked stuff that makes people just go straight for uninstall is not okay?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, as a customers, we do have a right to "demand" or rather ask for things if you like it or not, if these things will be "delivered" though it's a different story.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > You're kinda going against your own words in that post...

> > > > > > > > > > > > > You say " **nobody** has the rights to demand the removal of something simply because it's "unfun" to play against" and then "Other players should have the same chances to kill your class just as much as you should have against their", which is it then? There were/are things in the game that are clearly unbalanced/broken that need either complete removal or rework since they're overstacked too much without much counterplay.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > I see no connection between what can be considered broken/overperforming and what may force you to uninstall , if you'd be so kind to provide an example...

> > > > > > > > > > > It's gonna be difficult to write everything that was broken, so I'll just put few examples of pre-nerfed state builds: Condi Mirage(all versions, iframe spam says hi), Condi Thief(even currently is kitten, condi spam says hi), Druid(side-noder, ancient seed spam says hi), Warrior(all versions, overstacked Full-counter/rampage says hi), Chronomancer(bunker and phantasm says hi), Fireweaver(condi/evasion spam says hi), Hambow(stunlock says hi), Turret Engi(AI says hi), Minionmancer(AI says hi) and many more that made people quit since 2012.

> > > > > > > > > > > Don't know about you, but I don't think a lot of people enjoy being trashed without any kind of counterplay, even if they were trying to tune their build to counter XYZ, some were straight-up uncounterable.

> > > > > > > > > > > Like 1shots from stealth, overspam of condies, unkillable bunkers(current era to a degree). A lot of people quit because of memes like that.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > This thread was never against the idea of removing OP specs and more against the idea that removing what makes a class competitive should be removed, toning down is one thing....completely removing the build is another.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > If one spec is supposed to be duel...then don't go and ask to remove everything that makes that build capable of duelling in the first place:

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > -a side noder must have enough sustain to against sudden +1 if not it cannot be a side noder....no I don't mean being able to 1vs3+ for hours

> > > > > > > > > > -a support spec must be able to sustain enough pressure if not it cannot support anybody...no I don't mean being able to hold all enemy team for 5m+

> > > > > > > > > > -a burst spec supposed to burst you down...no I don't mean one shot from stealth...but enough to scare you or kill you if can't react fast enough

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Removal of what annoys you =/ balance let's all make this straight once and for all

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Ur not wrong man, been in this game coming on 7 yrs now and barely play but the community has gotten progressively worse as literally any skill or tactic a class uses to be effective will naturally spawn a nerf post here and there but in this community they'll be spammed. Then after some time anet devs who can't balance on their own accord will nerf the class so that skill or tactic is useless all while far more problematic skills and tactics go unchanged due to them being more accepted either thru class popularity or simply not being one of the few classes constantly hated on by the community.

> > > > > > > > > The funny thing is the community wonders why the population is abysmally low and declining and on top complain about build deversity. The games basically amounted to everyone picking the most brainless cheese carry build in hope's to be effective against players doing the same. So many things in this games pvp need to be reworked including anets devs approach regarding the modes.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > You defend revenants saying they're balanced...while a team win a monthly tournaments with 3 revs in it....wvw is full of Mallyx revs from small scale roaming to frontline zerging and GvG fights.....sidenoders in pvp...unkillable sidenoders with enough experience........in the same instance you claim that **tempest** is broken lol when every team with a tempest lost to FB team, tempests don't get stacked in WvW and neither can roam, can't sidenode for kitten and yet...revenant is balanced while tempest is broken..such an example of integrity you are

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > That's the exact mentality I'm speaking about. Revs are not a easy class to play, lower ranks u see a rev usually their free kills. Their high evades/sustain require using properly times evade frames from skills, one block on staff, shiro roll back requiring energy resource and a heal that needs to be used while taking decent dps for it to be very effective. Yeah revs a monster if ur a good player which is how it should be and I also other classes should be brought up to that lv of effectiveness for the work put in. I'm against classes mechanics like necro where u spam and when close to death press a keybind and bam second hp bar with damage reduction, thsts brainless, add in fear spam and awesome. Or guards that stand in one spot even low rank spamming condi's and sustain skill and being far more effective than they should be for work put in just like necro. Or maybe spam autos from range while a pet hits as hard as a player and when u focus pet as many say u just allow the ranger to keep free hitting u than if u get in close bam barrier, protection and stability or trap dropped and invisible with superspeed. The game is filled with brainless spam carry builds due to anets inability to balance a all classes do everything approach and it's best to nerf a effective class that requires skill to play? How many top streamers that are viewed as very highly skilled in the game tried rev since last patch drop and continued to do so and didnt go back to their main? None. They all usually make comments when jumping on power rev and state "I'm not great on rev but I'm rolling it cuz team needs one".

> > > > > > > Rev is one of the few classes that require skill to be effective in high tier play and is separate from half these brainless spam classes that yeah ur ranger now falls into and the community wants it nerfed lol no surprise.

> > > > > > > Also it's not black and white sometime classes are stacked due to them being effective which doesn't always equate to OP just like skills and tactics that are effective don't automatically mean their op, where does this mentality come from?

> > > > > > > It's easy to tell if a build is being stacked due to being OP or brainless but still effective such as post nerf core necro, condi rev/ren, cindi thief, all burn specs that spam burns due to the burst dps burn tics do post patch vs power dps, condo and power ranger due to multiple brainless effective build possibilities and so on.

> > > > > > > Also a class that's dominant when stacked doesn't inherently make a spec op as thsts the fault of the system allowing class stacking and a class system promoting low class diversity. If a class is nerfed so its ineffective having 2 on a team how do u nerf that in a way that allows having one to remain effective? If having two is a detriment in a game designed with all classes do everything method than one would be detrimental as well as that method of thinking would only work in a game with holly trinity as having 3 dps and 2 tanks with no healer would be a detriment.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If the classes you complain about would be as strong as you say...then we would see much more of them at high tier and yet...this doesn't happen, TOP players are supposed to be even more devastating on a class and yet...they pick rev over ranger or guardian or ele when these classes stop being viable at the top.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If the way revs sustain themselves is the only fair one to fight..then it should be extended to everybody else while removing the current ones and yet..you complain about sword weaver which was based on the same idea of evading incoming attacks...but people called it OP...so eles should have heal burst?!...no people called it OP...and this goes for all other professions you see?!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > How exactly would you give the same tools that revs has to avoid instant death to another profession?

> > > > >

> > > > > Well for one ranger is being played in top tier matches again these days and u saying power shiro rev is easier to be as equally as effective compared to slbeast or core ranger? Cuz lol. A rev may have a higher skill ceiling than say ranger but its skill floor is significantly higher so... if its impossible to have actual perfect overall balance would u rather this scanario or the class with a lower skill floor also be able to match a class with a higher skill floor and ceiling when two equally skilled players are playing the two? I'll use ranger as a example as I kno u play it. I say buff rangers skill ceiling or potential to match revs while reworking all of its brainless carry mechanics out of it making it require more thoughtful play and skill to be effective with or nerf revs skill ceiling down so skilled players arnt monsters on it but add in some of condi revs brainless spam playstyle into power rev successfully dumbing the build down. What sounds healthier for the game?

> > > >

> > > > I have asked how would you accomplish this skill ceiling buff on other classes? You claim that revenant sustain/dmg ratio is balanced while being based on the timing of inbuilt evades and block/heal/boon uptime; at this point I wonder how would you make so that 2 skilled players ,one on a rev and another playing a different profession, would have a balanced fight with equal chance to take each one out.

> > > >

> > > > Between Glint aoe/elite and sword off hand ranged onehit burst, 2 teleports, all boons uptime (minus resistance without mallyx) , block/dash with staff........please why don't you try to explain me how we can match that same level of burst/sustain on other professions with something that you don't consider cheese?

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > If were talking ranger as a example I'd drop the damage so hard on passive pet damage but have the pet skills when melded have good damage, id increase the CD on maul and make a successful hilt bash reduce CD by 50% not out right remove the cd(stupid carry design) the damage is already fine on maul. I'd speed up the ranger autos significantly and put the evade back in between the second and last sword hit cuz if u can time that last hit to avoid significant damage than the ranger should be rewarded with a evade, hilt bash also should get some damage returned to it as should a lot off the hard cc skill,not all but a lot of them. The long bow rapid fire damage is fine but CD should be be slightly increased, for braindead spam purposes lb autos should be unaffected by damage multipliers or boons. I could go on and I know in ways this sounds like a nerf but if these types of things are applied to all classes it wouldn't be bad. Traps like guards should have the cd stars to reset on activation not when placed so they cant be placed a second time on a opponent who just activated it. This game is so full of bad carry designs it's crazy.

> >

> > So you would "solve the issue" by totally destroying core and druid while keeping SlB intact it sounds like. What I mean is you are proposing the "drop the damage hard on ...pet", but give good damage merged. Well the only one who can "merge" is SLB. That is a horrible suggestion. Also that combo has been nerfed enough IMO, the only thing that needs to be reduced IS MERGED DAMAGE to balance IF ANYTHING.

> >

> > I dont play ranger much but I have played it enough to know that the Maul, hiltbash, maul combo has MAJOR tells and any player can easily avoid the hildbash and 2nd maul. you just move away. if you move away then the ranger has to try and move or use gs3 to leap to you and will then likely burn up its next opening strike bonus and lose the while daze bonus for the 2nd maul because of the time delay after bash combined with needing to use 3 skill before they can hit with 2 skill again and opening stike is on furry application only. In other words, the only way maul does good bash IS with thinking ahead and doing a a combination of skills with boon application either via utility or pet swap. the pet swap no longer works for SLB they use merge now.

> >

> > I think you have a distorted view of you own class and skill.

> >

> > Just like your suggestions for Mesmer. All your "class balance" suggestions tend to sounds more like YOU are one of the posters who DO try to KILL a CLASS TO REDUCE your COMPETITION.I think

> >

> > Rev and Guard are the ones that people should focus on destorying at this point.

> >

> > Heck lets just nerf them all into oblivion! Why the heck not just kill the entire game.

> >

> > Ohh wait the point of this thread is about WHY do we have to remove what we dont like to the detriment of other classes. ironically your post demonstrates why the forum comments arent usually constructive when balance is the topic. People tend to demonstrate the same clasxs BIAS that you have.

>

> I main ranger and I agree with you on considering core/druid when making pet adjustments. People often forget that the loss of stats is built into the pet. The active (F2) on them is no different than a warrior executing their F1 burst - the exception being that the pet active doesn't really do any significant damage. The "passive" damage of the pet can be almost entirely negated and is shut down by condi/aoe/soft condis or even just not standing still (poor AI).

>

> Where I disagree though, is while maul has an easy tell, it's quite easily spammable between its low cooldown and the reset with hilt bash. Add into the fact that greatsword still retains most of its defensive kit/mobility after the changes - greatsword is a very overloaded weapon kit.

> It was originally designed as a defensive kit and to be honest I would much prefer they revert the unnecessary changes they made to greatsword. The evade needs to be returned to the last strike of the auto attack, damage should be lowered through removing the reset on maul through hilt bash, and the block needs the evade removed and put back to the ranged throw with cripple.

>

> Tldr; greatsword changes were unnecessary and not asked for and they need to be reverted - this is **from a Ranger main**.

 

I dont really see how GS on ranger is overloaded unless GS on guard or even staff on druid is also overloaded. What I mean is its a 2h weapons dont have as much flexability as 1h due to being locked into a set of skills for 1-5 rather than 1-3, 2-5 being interchangable for other weapons. IMO this is why 2h weapons always have some kind of defensive skill on them along with the rest. I mean I DON'T think druid staff is OP at all, but it has the same kinda multi function as does guard GS, guard is the best of them all. Every single one of them gets mobility, some kinda disable/block/reflect/proj. absorb + mobility + damage. Its splitting hairs to say one 2h is better than another. The differences play into the class. The time GS becomes OP at this point is with SlB due to merge.

 

Also I basically think old GS was good too and wouldnt mind it getting reverted one bit and I agree the real issue is the merge bonus and extra kit. I dont main ranger, but have played it enough to feel comfortable commenting

[Dantheman.3589]

This is kind of true. I think anet showed great insight in not removing valk amulet along w/ cav and knights as they did succeed in removing some insanely cancerous build but left enough build diversity for the builds that literally 100% need something like valk to survive ie. staff thief and maybe marks core ranger have that to thank