viquing.8254 Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > Surprise surprise the rev didn't stay all the time at 90% HP. When he get +1 ing in the second link, he was at 10%. And this this with A WAR. > > > > > I never said they would always stay at 90%? I said they *wouldnt die*. In the 7+ minute fight in MOTA, both players hit 10% a few times, but as you can tell by the way I called it, in 7+ minutes neither died. The only healthpoint that matters is the last one. The point is that in a 1v1, he wouldnt die, and the first video illustrates it beautifully because that fight went on for a while, the rev hasnt even used all his cooldowns, and it was clear there is no way in sight. > > > > > Hmm seems like a turn back for you. > > If people go to 10% life, we aren't in a tank meta, or you never played a real tank meta. > > In the cele ele meta, one of said cele eles dropping to 10% at any point was not unusual by any means. The problem, just like right now, is that they then heal up immediately, and you will keep fighting them for a few more minutes without ever killing them. A "tank" is just someone who doesnt die. Not someone who doesnt take damage. That would be inachievable anyway. Which is not the case, I don't see a rev coming back from 10% to 100% HP in 2 sec apart if player don't how to stop attacking during infuse light. Then putting rev apart because I already state that he need some tweak, how many other class are able to come from 10% to full health in seconds huh ? > > > > In this second vid, even without the +1, the dev still die. No you were not good enough to understand than fighting is more than just burst and rotate. > > > > > > Nope, he wouldnt. As I said, he was back up to 43% with healing incoming, his next defensive cooldowns being close to up, and the warriors offensive cooldowns being pretty depleted. Without the +1, the fight wouldve gone on for another *agonising* 7 minutes without a death. And no, you were not good enough to understand that the old meta was not *at all* "burst and rotate". If anything that describes the current meta more, where you outnumber, burst down, then move on to outnumber more. Because thats the only way you kill players. > > Nop currently you have to take time to make the opponent : > > 1) reach low life. > > You dont "take time" for this. You just kill time, and even then making them "reach low life" is meaningless, they immediately heal back up and youre back to square 1. Sure walking in a map instead of fighting is a way more efficient way to spend time. If you like running, WvW is one more time the best mode for you. > > 2) +1 ing if you can't finish him. > > > > You *have* to +1 because no one can finish anyone without it. Again, you dont take time doing this. Play squish ranger vs squish mes vs squish thief vs squish gard vs squish reaper vs squish ele vs squish engi vs squish war. Show me how none of them : 1) Take more than 30 sec to die of having to run away. 2) Don't die if they stay in fight. Apart few build THAT ARE BUILD that are problematics, you must only meet meta tank my poor, hopefully I'm always meeting diversity in my game because your game look so depressing. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ > > Whereas before you just run with 3 +1 destroying everything in 20 sec or make people left points at view. > > Once again, thats the *current* meta. Before you fought 1v1s and 2v2s and actually had them result in kills. You werent forced to wait for +1s, and hell, unlike now only the thief focused on +1ing, instead of *literally everyone*. Nop, I don't meet 2 thieves + 1 rev running around killing everything like it was the case pre-patch. > > > > A low skill meta where player just have to concentrate 10 sec every 30 sec mean nothing for me. But I understand that some people have concentration issue and fight with a higher duration time look kinda hard for them. So they just want an easy game where they can just burst and walk away. > > > > > > Yes, we get it. You dont understand that the old meta was a high-skill meta, and the current meta is a super low-skill meta. You dont understand that the old meta wasnt "concentrate 10 seconds every 30 seconds", but long fights where mistakes are lethal. You dont understand that a 30 second fight where you have to think and time the entire time is far more skillful than a 7 minute fight where you turn off your brain, and just spam everything off cooldown while waiting for one of your teammates to outnumber you so you can kill the enemy. > > There wasn't "long fight" there were people kitting 5 m around point because the damage were too high. > > Yes, we know that in your fantasy land that was a thing that happened. Sadly in reality, it didnt. In reality, they didnt "kite around the point", they went on the point, fought, and if they lost (which mind you was *actually a thing that happened*) they either died, or disengaged and rotated elsewhere. Thats good. But no, there were long fights, they were the norm. 30 seconds to a minute fights on point before someone lost. Instead of 7+ minute fights where no one ever loses. This : is my fantasy land ? Highlight me the time where they were fighting on point please, I fail to see it. Sure they went on point, they take atomic damage and they come back fighting around. Dunno where you live but we haven't the same minutes. > > If you think that Ajaxx in the vid "just spam everything off cooldown" to get the rev 10%hp, you will probably never progress in PvP. You should try WvW where you can get high spike thanks to gear&foods. > > I hate to tell you this, but that is pretty much what he did, barring any "out of range" considerations. But let me mention something more important. Take a look at what the Rev was doing. Which is making mistakes. He doesnt dodge any of the important skills and wastes his dodges for mobility twice. He misuses his glint heal barely getting anything out of it, and wastes his staff block and evade. And despite making *this many critical mistakes*, without a +1, he wouldnt have died. *That* should tell you everything about how low-skill the meta is. No wonder you like it. Wait did you just write that timing is more important than rollface ? And with only rollface you didn't do anything ? Hint : it's the definition of skill. The difference is that before with rollface you could put high pressure with no efforts. > > > I understand you have trouble with not making major mistakes which got you killed in the previous high-skill meta. So you just want an easy game where you can faceroll the keyboard, constantly make grave mistakes, and never die. > > I understand you don't have trouble playing thief in the last low-skill meta considering the ladder pre-patch. so you just want your easy kill back and feel strong. > > > > Mate, if youre going to use an ad hominem because youve run out of actual arguments but dont want to admit that you were wrong the entire time, at least try a *little bit* harder? I didnt play Thief pre-patch. I played Core Grenade Engineer. Same thing as now, though I used slightly different traits and skills. But here is the thing. Thief pre-patch was still a +1. It kills just as easily now as it does before, because it only killed in +1s. Nothing changed for thief. So the ad hominem fails on 2 levels. Mate, for the moment I link 2 to 3 times more prooves than you, about my ad hominem, It's not for you but for readers just to make them look at your post history just to get an idea of the hominem. > Fact is, the current meta as you can see by that Rev above is super low-skill. The previous meta was high-skill. You want to be like that rev. You want to be able to make countless mistakes (since you do) and never get punished for them. Thats the ultimate truth behind it. You want a *low-skill* meta. A meta that caters to players like you, players who keep making mistakes, wasting their dodges, wasting their defenses, mispositioning, failing to time or setup any of their own skills. You want a meta where the mistakes you keep making dont kill you, and the only way you get killed is when you get outnumbered. A meta where you can just faceroll on your keyboard without putting even the *slightest* thought into your gameplay and still succeed. Sadly for you, seems most players do not want a low-skill meta. Now its up to Anet to fix that. It's not fact, it's your crappy opinion about skill. The only point I agree with you is that most players do not want a low-skill meta, neither a clic to win meta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 > @"viquing.8254" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > Surprise surprise the rev didn't stay all the time at 90% HP. When he get +1 ing in the second link, he was at 10%. And this this with A WAR. > > > > > > > I never said they would always stay at 90%? I said they *wouldnt die*. In the 7+ minute fight in MOTA, both players hit 10% a few times, but as you can tell by the way I called it, in 7+ minutes neither died. The only healthpoint that matters is the last one. The point is that in a 1v1, he wouldnt die, and the first video illustrates it beautifully because that fight went on for a while, the rev hasnt even used all his cooldowns, and it was clear there is no way in sight. > > > > > > > Hmm seems like a turn back for you. > > > If people go to 10% life, we aren't in a tank meta, or you never played a real tank meta. > > > > In the cele ele meta, one of said cele eles dropping to 10% at any point was not unusual by any means. The problem, just like right now, is that they then heal up immediately, and you will keep fighting them for a few more minutes without ever killing them. A "tank" is just someone who doesnt die. Not someone who doesnt take damage. That would be inachievable anyway. > Which is not the case, I don't see a rev coming back from 10% to 100% HP in 2 sec apart if player don't how to stop attacking during infuse light. > Then putting rev apart because I already state that he need some tweak, how many other class are able to come from 10% to full health in seconds huh ? It absolutely is the case. They dont need to return to 100%, you spent cooldowns to kill them, your damage is lower. Theyll gradually go back up. Again, we literally saw him go back up to 43% instantly while also continously regenerating health in the video. And uh, full health, no, but enough to negate your damage and be unkillable? All of them. Damage is low, healing is not. Every class can do it. Thats not what sets Rev or Holo or Ranger apart. The fact that they have easily accessible and fast *knockbacks* is. > > > > > In this second vid, even without the +1, the dev still die. No you were not good enough to understand than fighting is more than just burst and rotate. > > > > > > > > Nope, he wouldnt. As I said, he was back up to 43% with healing incoming, his next defensive cooldowns being close to up, and the warriors offensive cooldowns being pretty depleted. Without the +1, the fight wouldve gone on for another *agonising* 7 minutes without a death. And no, you were not good enough to understand that the old meta was not *at all* "burst and rotate". If anything that describes the current meta more, where you outnumber, burst down, then move on to outnumber more. Because thats the only way you kill players. > > > Nop currently you have to take time to make the opponent : > > > 1) reach low life. > > > > You dont "take time" for this. You just kill time, and even then making them "reach low life" is meaningless, they immediately heal back up and youre back to square 1. > Sure walking in a map instead of fighting is a way more efficient way to spend time. If you like running, WvW is one more time the best mode for you. Ok, I will repeat myself one last time. Despite your obsessive insistence on this point, its blatantly 100% false. Before the patch, you spent way more time fighting, than walking, because fighting actually lead to someone lose. If anything, its *now* where you spend more time walking instead of fighting. Because as I said, fighting for 7 minutes without anyone dying isnt exactly effective. So someone gets your enemy outnumbered, you kill them, then you move and outnumber someone else and kill them. Macro over micro. > > > 2) +1 ing if you can't finish him. > > > > > > > You *have* to +1 because no one can finish anyone without it. Again, you dont take time doing this. > Play squish ranger vs squish mes vs squish thief vs squish gard vs squish reaper vs squish ele vs squish engi vs squish war. Show me how none of them : > 1) Take more than 30 sec to die of having to run away. > 2) Don't die if they stay in fight. > Were talking about meta, arent we? That being said, even for those its the case. I dont know if you noticed, but Holo only runs *2* actual defensive traits. And theyre both on long cooldown and dont give him that much defense. Same with Power Rev. And with Ranger. These classes arent unkillable because they spec deep into defense, theyre unkillable because damage is so pathetically low that having *any* sustain means youre unkillable. > Apart few build THAT ARE BUILD that are problematics, you must only meet meta tank my poor, hopefully I'm always meeting diversity in my game because your game look so depressing. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Ok, let me explain it so simple that even *you* can understand it. Rev, Holo, Ranger, theyre not unique, theyre not special in their survivability. Every meta class can survive as well as they can. Nerf those 3, and all you get is for some kind of guardian, some kind of necro and some kind of Ele to take their place. Or even a Warrior. You will have to keep nerfing and nerfing healing into the ground to allow people to finally die in fair fights, and at that point you have taken the already low-skill state of PvP and run it into the ground. Its not a solution. It just makes the problem worse. But importantly, what makes Rev Holo and Ranger special is that they have easily accessible knockbacks, allowing you to decap when fighting an enemy. Because youre not going to be killing anyone on your own. > > > Whereas before you just run with 3 +1 destroying everything in 20 sec or make people left points at view. > > > > Once again, thats the *current* meta. Before you fought 1v1s and 2v2s and actually had them result in kills. You werent forced to wait for +1s, and hell, unlike now only the thief focused on +1ing, instead of *literally everyone*. > Nop, I don't meet 2 thieves + 1 rev running around killing everything like it was the case pre-patch. Ignoring that that wasnt the case pre-patch, yeah you do see that, that was literally the MOTA meta, people rotating together outnumbering and killing. While the Revs were fighting somewhere for 7 minutes without anyone dying. > > > > > A low skill meta where player just have to concentrate 10 sec every 30 sec mean nothing for me. But I understand that some people have concentration issue and fight with a higher duration time look kinda hard for them. So they just want an easy game where they can just burst and walk away. > > > > > > > > Yes, we get it. You dont understand that the old meta was a high-skill meta, and the current meta is a super low-skill meta. You dont understand that the old meta wasnt "concentrate 10 seconds every 30 seconds", but long fights where mistakes are lethal. You dont understand that a 30 second fight where you have to think and time the entire time is far more skillful than a 7 minute fight where you turn off your brain, and just spam everything off cooldown while waiting for one of your teammates to outnumber you so you can kill the enemy. > > > There wasn't "long fight" there were people kitting 5 m around point because the damage were too high. > > > > Yes, we know that in your fantasy land that was a thing that happened. Sadly in reality, it didnt. In reality, they didnt "kite around the point", they went on the point, fought, and if they lost (which mind you was *actually a thing that happened*) they either died, or disengaged and rotated elsewhere. Thats good. But no, there were long fights, they were the norm. 30 seconds to a minute fights on point before someone lost. Instead of 7+ minute fights where no one ever loses. > > This : is my fantasy land ? > Highlight me the time where they were fighting on point please, I fail to see it. Sure they went on point, they take atomic damage and they come back fighting around. Dunno where you live but we haven't the same minutes. Ah, a cherry-picked video featuring 2 teams that both try to outrotate and outnumber everywhere. Of course, if you outnumber someone, they have to run away. But spoiler: its no different from right now. Once again, watch the MOTA. Oh but just to break your point apart further, lets take a look at something slightly more high profile than the AT, mmh? [This]( ) MAT from the same month. Oh whats that? Theyre fighting on the points non-stop? But you told me that *never* happened. Im shocked, you lied? Well not actually *that* shocked,. > > > If you think that Ajaxx in the vid "just spam everything off cooldown" to get the rev 10%hp, you will probably never progress in PvP. You should try WvW where you can get high spike thanks to gear&foods. > > > > I hate to tell you this, but that is pretty much what he did, barring any "out of range" considerations. But let me mention something more important. Take a look at what the Rev was doing. Which is making mistakes. He doesnt dodge any of the important skills and wastes his dodges for mobility twice. He misuses his glint heal barely getting anything out of it, and wastes his staff block and evade. And despite making *this many critical mistakes*, without a +1, he wouldnt have died. *That* should tell you everything about how low-skill the meta is. No wonder you like it. > Wait did you just write that timing is more important than rollface ? And with only rollface you didn't do anything ? Ah, the "damn you have a point I cannot respond to, so I try to strawman in a desperate attempt to save face" method. Lets cut it apart. No, I didnt write that. Because here is the thing: as I explained, his mistakes didnt matter. And Ajaxx didnt "time" anything. And if no +1 came, the Rev wouldve survived and kept fighting. The truth is that with just facerolling, he was exactly as effective as Ajaxx was, which is to say, they both failed to kill the other one without help. > Hint : it's the definition of skill. Yeah, if there is a difference, its the definition of skill. Sadly despite your pathetic attempt to smokescreen, we can all clearly see that there wasnt a difference. Hence why its a super-low skill meta right now. > The difference is that before with rollface you could put high pressure with no efforts. No. The difference is that before when you facerolled, made mistakes, didnt time anything and overall played terribly, you instantly died, your opponent instantly won the fight, and got the point, and pushed towards the win. Now when you faceroll, make mistakes, dont time anything and overall play terribly, the opponent still cant kill you without +1ing, and as a result the games outcome doesnt change anything. Before you needed effort to win. Now you can just faceroll. *That* is the difference. > > > > I understand you have trouble with not making major mistakes which got you killed in the previous high-skill meta. So you just want an easy game where you can faceroll the keyboard, constantly make grave mistakes, and never die. > > > I understand you don't have trouble playing thief in the last low-skill meta considering the ladder pre-patch. so you just want your easy kill back and feel strong. > > > > > > > Mate, if youre going to use an ad hominem because youve run out of actual arguments but dont want to admit that you were wrong the entire time, at least try a *little bit* harder? I didnt play Thief pre-patch. I played Core Grenade Engineer. Same thing as now, though I used slightly different traits and skills. But here is the thing. Thief pre-patch was still a +1. It kills just as easily now as it does before, because it only killed in +1s. Nothing changed for thief. So the ad hominem fails on 2 levels. > Mate, for the moment I link 2 to 3 times more prooves than you, about my ad hominem, It's not for you but for readers just to make them look at your post history just to get an idea of the hominem. That sentence didnt make sense. And just to explain it to you, an ad hominem isnt an argument. Its the absence of an argument. When you resort to attacking the other persons character instead of their argument, you basically shout to the world "Im wrong but Im too much of a coward to admit it". So, thanks for admitting it indirectly, I suppose. > > Fact is, the current meta as you can see by that Rev above is super low-skill. The previous meta was high-skill. You want to be like that rev. You want to be able to make countless mistakes (since you do) and never get punished for them. Thats the ultimate truth behind it. You want a *low-skill* meta. A meta that caters to players like you, players who keep making mistakes, wasting their dodges, wasting their defenses, mispositioning, failing to time or setup any of their own skills. You want a meta where the mistakes you keep making dont kill you, and the only way you get killed is when you get outnumbered. A meta where you can just faceroll on your keyboard without putting even the *slightest* thought into your gameplay and still succeed. Sadly for you, seems most players do not want a low-skill meta. Now its up to Anet to fix that. > It's not fact, it's your crappy opinion about skill. No, its a fact. We saw the rev above. We saw him making mistakes and, in that specific context, playing terribly. And we saw that it had no outcome on the game result. Without the Warriors team outrotating (or "walking" as you like to call it) he would never have died and the fight was an endless dead-draw. We see that the meta is *objectively* super-low skill, and that the meta beforehand was *objectively* high-skill. And from what you wrote about the previous meta (And how laughable it was), we know that you are like this Rev. Constantly making mistakes. And that the previous meta where those mistakes got punished and you found yourself walking around at low-health after being punished. Thats why you didnt like the old meta. It was too high-skill for you. > The only point I agree with you is that most players do not want a low-skill meta, neither a clic to win meta. > Yeah except we didnt have a "click to win" meta. We had a "outplay to win" meta. Now we have a "wait for reinforcements to win" meta. Macro, or "walking" as you call it is the only thing that matters. But just to hammer the point across one final time. If you facerolled before the patch, and/or made mistakes, you instantly lost. Straight up 0% chance of winning, youre screwed, and your team gets that much closer to losing. *Now* if you faceroll and make constant mistakes, it doesnt matter one bit. You can play as awfully as you want, your enemy wont kill you. All that matters is that your team moves around the map better than the enemy team. As long as they do, you can be far worse of a player than the guy youre scrapping with, you still will win. The current meta is the *textbook definition* of a low-skill meta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonSlayer.1087 Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 this new game is just immob and condi spam lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > Which is not the case, I don't see a rev coming back from 10% to 100% HP in 2 sec apart if player don't how to stop attacking during infuse light. > > Then putting rev apart because I already state that he need some tweak, how many other class are able to come from 10% to full health in seconds huh ? > > It absolutely is the case. They dont need to return to 100%, you spent cooldowns to kill them, your damage is lower. Theyll gradually go back up. Again, we literally saw him go back up to 43% instantly while also continously regenerating health in the video. And uh, full health, no, but enough to negate your damage and be unkillable? All of them. Damage is low, healing is not. Every class can do it. Thats not what sets Rev or Holo or Ranger apart. The fact that they have easily accessible and fast *knockbacks* is. Show me how you come back to 10% from 100% on mesmer while staying in fight please. Apart the tank signet build who has basically 0 output, the better you can get is 6k5 every 30 seconds. So 1) No, every class couldn't do it. 2) You are just writting that few class are apart because of identificated reasons, another stepback, nice, we progress. > > Sure walking in a map instead of fighting is a way more efficient way to spend time. If you like running, WvW is one more time the best mode for you. > > Ok, I will repeat myself one last time. Despite your obsessive insistence on this point, its blatantly 100% false. Before the patch, you spent way more time fighting, than walking, because fighting actually lead to someone lose. If anything, its *now* where you spend more time walking instead of fighting. Because as I said, fighting for 7 minutes without anyone dying isnt exactly effective. So someone gets your enemy outnumbered, you kill them, then you move and outnumber someone else and kill them. Macro over micro. You have proves on video that it wasn't the case, dunno if you are blind or not. Class who could stay more in point than other were war, maybe FB and that's all. If you are fighting 7 min you need to : 1) switch to more pressure gear and traits. 2) learn to time your skills. > Were talking about meta, arent we? That being said, even for those its the case. I dont know if you noticed, but Holo only runs *2* actual defensive traits. And theyre both on long cooldown and dont give him that much defense. Same with Power Rev. And with Ranger. These classes arent unkillable because they spec deep into defense, theyre unkillable because damage is so pathetically low that having *any* sustain means youre unkillable. Again, don't base your meta on a mota were players didn't want to take risks because they just want to win. Stop playing tank if you think damage is low, go play zerk ranger or power mes then come back saying you and opponents are unkillable. > > Apart few build THAT ARE BUILD that are problematics, you must only meet meta tank my poor, hopefully I'm always meeting diversity in my game because your game look so depressing. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ > > Ok, let me explain it so simple that even *you* can understand it. Rev, Holo, Ranger, theyre not unique, theyre not special in their survivability. Every meta class can survive as well as they can. Nerf those 3, and all you get is for some kind of guardian, some kind of necro and some kind of Ele to take their place. Or even a Warrior. You will have to keep nerfing and nerfing healing into the ground to allow people to finally die in fair fights, and at that point you have taken the already low-skill state of PvP and run it into the ground. Its not a solution. It just makes the problem worse. > > But importantly, what makes Rev Holo and Ranger special is that they have easily accessible knockbacks, allowing you to decap when fighting an enemy. Because youre not going to be killing anyone on your own. Ok, let me explain it with another proove because *you* can understand it, let's took yesterday Mighty stream randomly : So : ~17 kills in 10 min. Wow such a tank meta where nobody die. Even if you look the At final at the end, they live only thanks to team assist and synergy. And even with this, there is still 9 kills in a 10 min game, while worms are playing one of the tankiest comp currently. Ho surprise surprise, there is multiple same class. > > Nop, I don't meet 2 thieves + 1 rev running around killing everything like it was the case pre-patch. > > Ignoring that that wasnt the case pre-patch, yeah you do see that, that was literally the MOTA meta, people rotating together outnumbering and killing. While the Revs were fighting somewhere for 7 minutes without anyone dying. Dunno if playing the +1ing prepatch make you unable to see what was running but it was the case. Rev just go from only +1ing to gain point holding ability. > > This : is my fantasy land ? > > Highlight me the time where they were fighting on point please, I fail to see it. Sure they went on point, they take atomic damage and they come back fighting around. Dunno where you live but we haven't the same minutes. > > Ah, a cherry-picked video featuring 2 teams that both try to outrotate and outnumber everywhere. Of course, if you outnumber someone, they have to run away. But spoiler: its no different from right now. Once again, watch the MOTA. Lol a cherry-picked, guye, I just open sind vis and took the first I see 4 month ago. > Oh but just to break your point apart further, lets take a look at something slightly more high profile than the AT, mmh? [This]( ) MAT from the same month. Oh whats that? Theyre fighting on the points non-stop? But you told me that *never* happened. Im shocked, you lied? Well not actually *that* shocked,. Surprise surprise, 2 thieves in each team + 1 rev on blue team. Who is linking counter-argument vid now ? Wait I see is : - Misha perma low life. - Sind just go on point 10 sec before getting to 25% life. - They aren't fighting on mid point if they aren't outnumbering, even considering the size of the point because of pressure. Even when there is nobody in they hesitate to go into to cap because of the potential pressure. It must be a joke that you link that, 4 players playing stealth and running spiking while other just gravitate around trying to survive. Damages came from nowhere, an aoe can make you half life out. You know what, let make a 5v5 thief vs thief game so you can f ully enjoy your vision of skill. > > Wait did you just write that timing is more important than rollface ? And with only rollface you didn't do anything ? > > Ah, the "kitten you have a point I cannot respond to, so I try to strawman in a desperate attempt to save face" method. Lets cut it apart. No, I didnt write that. Because here is the thing: as I explained, his mistakes didnt matter. And Ajaxx didnt "time" anything. And if no +1 came, the Rev wouldve survived and kept fighting. The truth is that with just facerolling, he was exactly as effective as Ajaxx was, which is to say, they both failed to kill the other one without help. Wow, Ajaxx didn't time anything, let wait to other readers to watch that. > > Hint : it's the definition of skill. > > Yeah, if there is a difference, its the definition of skill. Sadly despite your pathetic attempt to smokescreen, we can all clearly see that there wasnt a difference. Hence why its a super-low skill meta right now. Or just went from carrying build to build where you have to play so it hurt. > > The difference is that before with rollface you could put high pressure with no efforts. > > No. The difference is that before when you facerolled, made mistakes, didnt time anything and overall played terribly, you instantly died, your opponent instantly won the fight, and got the point, and pushed towards the win. Now when you faceroll, make mistakes, dont time anything and overall play terribly, the opponent still cant kill you without +1ing, and as a result the games outcome doesnt change anything. Before you needed effort to win. Now you can just faceroll. *That* is the difference. That's why we saw this much diversity.... > > Mate, for the moment I link 2 to 3 times more prooves than you, about my ad hominem, It's not for you but for readers just to make them look at your post history just to get an idea of the hominem. > > That sentence didnt make sense. And just to explain it to you, an ad hominem isnt an argument. Its the absence of an argument. When you resort to attacking the other persons character instead of their argument, you basically shout to the world "Im wrong but Im too much of a coward to admit it". So, thanks for admitting it indirectly, I suppose. Can't hope much from someone promoting carrying builds. Thznks for the smile about the absence of arguments when most of my posts had more than yours. > No, its a fact. We saw the rev above. We saw him making mistakes and, in that specific context, playing terribly. And we saw that it had no outcome on the game result. Without the Warriors team outrotating (or "walking" as you like to call it) he would never have died and the fight was an endless dead-draw. We see that the meta is *objectively* super-low skill, and that the meta beforehand was *objectively* high-skill. And from what you wrote about the previous meta (And how laughable it was), we know that you are like this Rev. Constantly making mistakes. And that the previous meta where those mistakes got punished and you found yourself walking around at low-health after being punished. Thats why you didnt like the old meta. It was too high-skill for you. The only who see that are thoses who were the most carried by build prepatch. > > The only point I agree with you is that most players do not want a low-skill meta, neither a clic to win meta. > > > > Yeah except we didnt have a "click to win" meta. We had a "outplay to win" meta. Now we have a "wait for reinforcements to win" meta. Macro, or "walking" as you call it is the only thing that matters. > But just to hammer the point across one final time. If you facerolled before the patch, and/or made mistakes, you instantly lost. Straight up 0% chance of winning, youre screwed, and your team gets that much closer to losing. *Now* if you faceroll and make constant mistakes, it doesnt matter one bit. You can play as awfully as you want, your enemy wont kill you. All that matters is that your team moves around the map better than the enemy team. As long as they do, you can be far worse of a player than the guy youre scrapping with, you still will win. The current meta is the *textbook definition* of a low-skill meta. The problem was that versus some builds, if the opponent facerolled, you still take pressure. This is why the ladder look so bad in terms of class representation. And when My grandma can split out 75% of a pro-player by pushing 1 button, there is a problem. Now that newbies can't do pressure if not timing skills, they all come here to whine that they can't kill anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 > @"viquing.8254" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > Which is not the case, I don't see a rev coming back from 10% to 100% HP in 2 sec apart if player don't how to stop attacking during infuse light. > > > Then putting rev apart because I already state that he need some tweak, how many other class are able to come from 10% to full health in seconds huh ? > > > > It absolutely is the case. They dont need to return to 100%, you spent cooldowns to kill them, your damage is lower. Theyll gradually go back up. Again, we literally saw him go back up to 43% instantly while also continously regenerating health in the video. And uh, full health, no, but enough to negate your damage and be unkillable? All of them. Damage is low, healing is not. Every class can do it. Thats not what sets Rev or Holo or Ranger apart. The fact that they have easily accessible and fast *knockbacks* is. > Show me how you come back to 10% from 100% on mesmer while staying in fight please. Apart the tank signet build who has basically 0 output, the better you can get is 6k5 every 30 seconds. Ignoring that tank signet build, you do know Chrono still exists, right? Besides, we were talking meta. Due to the patch killing diversity, Mesmer isnt viable. > So > 1) No, every class couldn't do it. Nope, every class can do it. Even Mesmer. You admitted as much yourself. > 2) You are just writting that few class are apart because of identificated reasons, another stepback, nice, we progress. > Yes, only "few classes". Its just Guardian, Warrior, Revenant, Ranger, Engineer, Elementalist, Necro, Mesmer. Wait, thats literally *every class other than thief*. Hell Im not even sure thief cant do it. So it might just be *literally all classes*. So please, dont lie to make it seem like you have an argument. > > > Sure walking in a map instead of fighting is a way more efficient way to spend time. If you like running, WvW is one more time the best mode for you. > > > > Ok, I will repeat myself one last time. Despite your obsessive insistence on this point, its blatantly 100% false. Before the patch, you spent way more time fighting, than walking, because fighting actually lead to someone lose. If anything, its *now* where you spend more time walking instead of fighting. Because as I said, fighting for 7 minutes without anyone dying isnt exactly effective. So someone gets your enemy outnumbered, you kill them, then you move and outnumber someone else and kill them. Macro over micro. > You have proves on video that it wasn't the case, dunno if you are blind or not. Class who could stay more in point than other were war, maybe FB and that's all. I literally showed you one. > If you are fighting 7 min you need to : > 1) switch to more pressure gear and traits. > 2) learn to time your skills. > Ah yes, because the best players in the world didnt "time their skills". And because Condi Rev and Holo arent among the highest pressure classes in the game. Im sorry, but youre an idiot if you think you can explain it away like this. No, if you are fighting 7 minutes, then you are simply experiencing the current state of the game, where no matter what you do, you cant kill the enemy without outnumbering. > > Were talking about meta, arent we? That being said, even for those its the case. I dont know if you noticed, but Holo only runs *2* actual defensive traits. And theyre both on long cooldown and dont give him that much defense. Same with Power Rev. And with Ranger. These classes arent unkillable because they spec deep into defense, theyre unkillable because damage is so pathetically low that having *any* sustain means youre unkillable. > Again, don't base your meta on a mota were players didn't want to take risks because they just want to win. God do you even believe the stupid nonsense you write yourself? They absolutely took risks. The reason they picked these builds arent because "they didnt want to take risks" but because they are objectively the best builds and nothing else comes even close. > Stop playing tank if you think damage is low, go play zerk ranger or power mes then come back saying you and opponents are unkillable. ... you have seriously not been paying attention, have you? Zerk Ranger was played in MotA as well. It was one of the unkillable 7 minute fight on node builds. Used interchangably with Grenade Holo which, you guessed it, also does pretty high damage by current meta standards. Neither was able to ever kill in a 1v1. As for power Mes, didnt I tell you that were talking about meta? Power Mes will of course fail to kill any of these builds, but it might struggle to survive. Thats why it aint viable. > > > Apart few build THAT ARE BUILD that are problematics, you must only meet meta tank my poor, hopefully I'm always meeting diversity in my game because your game look so depressing. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ > > > > Ok, let me explain it so simple that even *you* can understand it. Rev, Holo, Ranger, theyre not unique, theyre not special in their survivability. Every meta class can survive as well as they can. Nerf those 3, and all you get is for some kind of guardian, some kind of necro and some kind of Ele to take their place. Or even a Warrior. You will have to keep nerfing and nerfing healing into the ground to allow people to finally die in fair fights, and at that point you have taken the already low-skill state of PvP and run it into the ground. Its not a solution. It just makes the problem worse. > > > > But importantly, what makes Rev Holo and Ranger special is that they have easily accessible knockbacks, allowing you to decap when fighting an enemy. Because youre not going to be killing anyone on your own. > > Ok, let me explain it with another proove because *you* can understand it, let's took yesterday Mighty stream randomly : > > So : ~17 kills in 10 min. Wow such a tank meta where nobody die. Man if youre gonna be dishonest, at least be *good* at it. Remember the caveat? The thing I have mentioned as the only way to kill people, multiple times? You kill people by outnumbering them. And oh shock, thats exactly how everyone who died in that clip you wanted to show died. They got outnumbered. That doesnt make it less of a tank meta. None of them ever died in a fair fight after all. > Even if you look the At final at the end, they live only thanks to team assist and synergy. And even with this, there is still 9 kills in a 10 min game, while worms are playing one of the tankiest comp currently. > Ho surprise surprise, there is multiple same class. > > They live because their enemies lack the damage to deal with their sustain. I mean its not like they ever lose a 1v1 either. But I guess if you close your eyes to the truth, you can say that youve not seen it. > > > Nop, I don't meet 2 thieves + 1 rev running around killing everything like it was the case pre-patch. > > > > Ignoring that that wasnt the case pre-patch, yeah you do see that, that was literally the MOTA meta, people rotating together outnumbering and killing. While the Revs were fighting somewhere for 7 minutes without anyone dying. > Dunno if playing the +1ing prepatch make you unable to see what was running but it was the case. > Rev just go from only +1ing to gain point holding ability. > > I didnt play the +1 prepatch. Your ad hominem is still just making clear you have no leg to stand on. And Rev already had the ability to hold points pre-patch with the right build, that didnt change. What changed is that now the Holosmith and even the Necro +1 now. Sometimes even the Tempest. Yeah. > > > This : is my fantasy land ? > > > Highlight me the time where they were fighting on point please, I fail to see it. Sure they went on point, they take atomic damage and they come back fighting around. Dunno where you live but we haven't the same minutes. > > > > Ah, a cherry-picked video featuring 2 teams that both try to outrotate and outnumber everywhere. Of course, if you outnumber someone, they have to run away. But spoiler: its no different from right now. Once again, watch the MOTA. > Lol a cherry-picked, guye, I just open sind vis and took the first I see 4 month ago. Yeah and the earth is flat. You aint fooling anyone. > > Oh but just to break your point apart further, lets take a look at something slightly more high profile than the AT, mmh? [This]( ) MAT from the same month. Oh whats that? Theyre fighting on the points non-stop? But you told me that *never* happened. Im shocked, you lied? Well not actually *that* shocked,. > > Surprise surprise, 2 thieves in each team + 1 rev on blue team. Who is linking counter-argument vid now ? What does that have to do with fighting on point? > Wait I see is : > - Misha perma low life. Blatant lie. He is constantly fighting, rarely drops below 30% health, only when spiked, and even more rarely actually gets downed. Really you lying this badly should tell everyone how little worth anything you say is. > - Sind just go on point 10 sec before getting to 25% life. A thief gets pretty low if spiked without defenses up. Thats supposed to be a bad thing? > - They aren't fighting on mid point if they aren't outnumbering, even considering the size of the point because of pressure. Even when there is nobody in they hesitate to go into to cap because of the potential pressure. > Blatant lie that doesnt even make logical sense. Ignoring that they constantly are fighting on mid point, why do you think the mid point magically makes pressure more likely than every other part of the map? > It must be a joke that you link that, 4 players playing stealth and running spiking while other just gravitate around trying to survive. Damages came from nowhere, an aoe can make you half life out. More blatant lying. Of course you ignore that they fight on points more than they run (other than Sindrener because he is a thief). Of course you say that they all play stealth even though only the thieves actually use stealth. Of course you say they "gravitate around trying to survive" when they dont do that and just fight on point and survive without much effort. Of course you say that "damage came from nowhere" because you arent good enough to notice what is hitting you. > You know what, let make a 5v5 thief vs thief game so you can f ully enjoy your vision of skill. > Yeah yeah we get it. You have no argument so you rely on an ad hominem. Again, still didnt play thief. Instead, yknow what, lets just reduce everyones damage to 0 until you outnumber and give everyone pool noodles that let you knock back so you can full enjoy your vision of skill. > > > Wait did you just write that timing is more important than rollface ? And with only rollface you didn't do anything ? > > > > Ah, the "kitten you have a point I cannot respond to, so I try to strawman in a desperate attempt to save face" method. Lets cut it apart. No, I didnt write that. Because here is the thing: as I explained, his mistakes didnt matter. And Ajaxx didnt "time" anything. And if no +1 came, the Rev wouldve survived and kept fighting. The truth is that with just facerolling, he was exactly as effective as Ajaxx was, which is to say, they both failed to kill the other one without help. > Wow, Ajaxx didn't time anything, let wait to other readers to watch that. He didnt really, and youre a fool if you think he did. > > > Hint : it's the definition of skill. > > > > Yeah, if there is a difference, its the definition of skill. Sadly despite your pathetic attempt to smokescreen, we can all clearly see that there wasnt a difference. Hence why its a super-low skill meta right now. > Or just went from carrying build to build where you have to play so it hurt. There were *no* carrying builds before the patch. There are *no* builds where you have to play now. You got it the exact wrong way around. But again, let me reiterate. The Rev played awfully. He made constant mistakes, and he screwed up every part. Without a +1, he wouldnt have died. He played awfully, and it made no difference. Hence, its the definition of low-skill. > > > The difference is that before with rollface you could put high pressure with no efforts. > > > > No. The difference is that before when you facerolled, made mistakes, didnt time anything and overall played terribly, you instantly died, your opponent instantly won the fight, and got the point, and pushed towards the win. Now when you faceroll, make mistakes, dont time anything and overall play terribly, the opponent still cant kill you without +1ing, and as a result the games outcome doesnt change anything. Before you needed effort to win. Now you can just faceroll. *That* is the difference. > That's why we saw this much diversity.... > We saw *more*. *Way* more. Before the patch all 9 classes were viable, each class had multiple viable builds, and we had a large number of possible comps. Now only 7 classes are viable alltogether, and everyone plays the same comp. A thief, Holo or Necro, Ranger or Rev, Tempest or Firebrand, and then any of holo, ranger, rev or necro. Yeah diversity is way down. > > > Mate, for the moment I link 2 to 3 times more prooves than you, about my ad hominem, It's not for you but for readers just to make them look at your post history just to get an idea of the hominem. > > > > That sentence didnt make sense. And just to explain it to you, an ad hominem isnt an argument. Its the absence of an argument. When you resort to attacking the other persons character instead of their argument, you basically shout to the world "Im wrong but Im too much of a coward to admit it". So, thanks for admitting it indirectly, I suppose. > Can't hope much from someone promoting carrying builds. Thznks for the smile about the absence of arguments when most of my posts had more than yours. > There were _**NO**_ "Carrying builds" before the patch. If you sucked, no matter what build you were on, you died, you lost, and the game was going in the opponents favour. If you want "carrying builds", this meta is what you need. And no, you have basically no argument at all. *0* of your posts had more arguments than mine. > > No, its a fact. We saw the rev above. We saw him making mistakes and, in that specific context, playing terribly. And we saw that it had no outcome on the game result. Without the Warriors team outrotating (or "walking" as you like to call it) he would never have died and the fight was an endless dead-draw. We see that the meta is *objectively* super-low skill, and that the meta beforehand was *objectively* high-skill. And from what you wrote about the previous meta (And how laughable it was), we know that you are like this Rev. Constantly making mistakes. And that the previous meta where those mistakes got punished and you found yourself walking around at low-health after being punished. Thats why you didnt like the old meta. It was too high-skill for you. > The only who see that are thoses who were the most carried by build prepatch. No one was carried by build prepatch. If you had a good build, but didnt play well, you lost hard even against a meme build. No, *everyone* sees that, because its the objective truth. The only ones that dont are the ones who got crushed prepatch because they werent good enough to not make constant mistakes, and want this meta with "carrying builds" and a lack of punishment for mistakes. This meta has builds that "carry people". > > > The only point I agree with you is that most players do not want a low-skill meta, neither a clic to win meta. > > > > > > > Yeah except we didnt have a "click to win" meta. We had a "outplay to win" meta. Now we have a "wait for reinforcements to win" meta. Macro, or "walking" as you call it is the only thing that matters. > > But just to hammer the point across one final time. If you facerolled before the patch, and/or made mistakes, you instantly lost. Straight up 0% chance of winning, youre screwed, and your team gets that much closer to losing. *Now* if you faceroll and make constant mistakes, it doesnt matter one bit. You can play as awfully as you want, your enemy wont kill you. All that matters is that your team moves around the map better than the enemy team. As long as they do, you can be far worse of a player than the guy youre scrapping with, you still will win. The current meta is the *textbook definition* of a low-skill meta. > The problem was that versus some builds, if the opponent facerolled, you still take pressure. This is why the ladder look so bad in terms of class representation. And when My grandma can split out 75% of a pro-player by pushing 1 button, there is a problem. No, that is just what *you* thought, but that was because you were bad and kept making mistakes that got you killed. For a good player, if the opponent facerolled, they just easily avoided the damage then killed them and enjoyed the free win. Despite your desperate attempt at making it seem otherwise, the ladder looked *amazing* in terms of class representation. All 9 classes were represented, instead of just 7 right now. And here we have more blatant lies. No class did anywhere close to 75% health in damage with one skill, and yknow, a pro player would just avoid the damage, so "your grandma" couldnt even do that. > Now that newbies can't do pressure if not timing skills, they all come here to whine that they can't kill anything. > Hahahahaha, oh your dishonesty is getting hilarious. No one can pressure, no matter how you time your skills (or rather, you shouldnt time your skills because your pressure depends on you using everything off cooldown). Its an objective fact that without outnumbering, no one dies. We saw that in MOTA, with the Revs fighting for 7 minutes multiple times, or outright dancing because it was unkillable. No, let me tell you what actually happened. Before the patch, the newbies (like you) who couldnt time skills and couldnt help but making mistakes whined about how "oh the meta is unfair, I take so much damage and am always at 15% yadda yadda yadda". Now that you have a meta where you dont have to time any skills, dont have to put even the *slightest* thought in your gameplay, where you can keep making gigantic mistakes and come out unscathed, a meta that is truly the *epitome* of low-skill, now you come here trying desperately to defend it. Acting like the old meta was low-skill when it was actually high-skill, and trying to act like this meta is *totally* high-skill when its actually *very* low-skill. Oh and here is something that makes it pretty clear. Bots now are doing better than ever before. And as a result we see more of them than ever before. Why do you think that is? Spoiler: Low-skill meta means simple bots cant get punished and destroyed like they could before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > Show me how you come back to 10% from 100% on mesmer while staying in fight please. Apart the tank signet build who has basically 0 output, the better you can get is 6k5 every 30 seconds. > > Ignoring that tank signet build, you do know Chrono still exists, right? Besides, we were talking meta. Due to the patch killing diversity, Mesmer isnt viable. If you limit yourself to only play what is meta and op class, good for you. Beside the fact that I already stated about tweaks, don't play tank if you want to do damage. > > So > > 1) No, every class couldn't do it. > > Nope, every class can do it. Even Mesmer. You admitted as much yourself. > > > 2) You are just writting that few class are apart because of identificated reasons, another stepback, nice, we progress. > > > > Yes, only "few classes". Its just Guardian, Warrior, Revenant, Ranger, Engineer, Elementalist, Necro, Mesmer. Wait, thats literally *every class other than thief*. Hell Im not even sure thief cant do it. So it might just be *literally all classes*. So please, dont lie to make it seem like you have an argument. We already understand that you are in love with thief, now warrior can't come back to full health in few sec as you can see at Ajaxx vid, same as mesmer, necro, gards and rev. Only ranger or ele and engi can with their combo. > > If you are fighting 7 min you need to : > > 1) switch to more pressure gear and traits. > > 2) learn to time your skills. > > > > Ah yes, because the best players in the world didnt "time their skills". And because Condi Rev and Holo arent among the highest pressure classes in the game. Im sorry, but youre an idiot if you think you can explain it away like this. No, if you are fighting 7 minutes, then you are simply experiencing the current state of the game, where no matter what you do, you cant kill the enemy without outnumbering. Was obindo playing a squish spec in you vid ? The answer is NO. There is more pressuring spec than what we see in your link. > > Again, don't base your meta on a mota were players didn't want to take risks because they just want to win. > > God do you even believe the stupid nonsense you write yourself? They absolutely took risks. The reason they picked these builds arent because "they didnt want to take risks" but because they are objectively the best builds and nothing else comes even close. You don't understand that the main purpose of 5v5 conquest is about map rotating and not dying to keep the momentum, you should come back to beginners guide. > > Stop playing tank if you think damage is low, go play zerk ranger or power mes then come back saying you and opponents are unkillable. > > ... you have seriously not been paying attention, have you? Zerk Ranger was played in MotA as well. It was one of the unkillable 7 minute fight on node builds. Used interchangably with Grenade Holo which, you guessed it, also does pretty high damage by current meta standards. Neither was able to ever kill in a 1v1. As for power Mes, didnt I tell you that were talking about meta? Power Mes will of course fail to kill any of these builds, but it might struggle to survive. Thats why it aint viable. Because it was a damage vs sustain fight. Guess what, game is more fun with no scissor vs scissor only like it was pre-patch but with paper vs stone vs scissor. Moreover, theses players would not die, even pre-patch in a mota context, they would just run away before because a dead cost very much to the team. They would not did the hardtry they does in regular mAt. Obviously sustain vs sustain never end, and sustain vs damage take long time, which make damage versus damage end. Now sustain's weakness is that they are slow (if it's not the case, here we are about nefs.) so a full sustain team will be outrotated. That's how you counter team running with too much tank. Which is not the case in regular 5v5 btw. > > Ok, let me explain it with another proove because *you* can understand it, let's took yesterday Mighty stream randomly : > > > > So : ~17 kills in 10 min. Wow such a tank meta where nobody die. > > Man if youre gonna be dishonest, at least be *good* at it. Remember the caveat? The thing I have mentioned as the only way to kill people, multiple times? You kill people by outnumbering them. And oh shock, thats exactly how everyone who died in that clip you wanted to show died. They got outnumbered. That doesnt make it less of a tank meta. None of them ever died in a fair fight after all. Sooo too tanky specs have weakness ? So they can die ? wow such an information. Even if none of them died in a fair fight, if they didn't do the setup pressure before getting +1ing, opponent would not die. Plus Mighty is FIGHTING (not just running from point to point.), he don't just rollface on point like you seems to think it's the norm. If he didn't position himself, he die like a worm because we aren't in a tank meta where you can facetank everything with everyclass. Since the beginning, sustain class are usually slow so they get outrotated, it's pure logic. And even with that when I'm facing zerk ranger with my zerk mes, one of the two die. > > Even if you look the At final at the end, they live only thanks to team assist and synergy. And even with this, there is still 9 kills in a 10 min game, while worms are playing one of the tankiest comp currently. > > Ho surprise surprise, there is multiple same class. > > > > > > They live because their enemies lack the damage to deal with their sustain. I mean its not like they ever lose a 1v1 either. But I guess if you close your eyes to the truth, you can say that youve not seen it. No they live because they assist each other which is normal. The only issue is the multiple same class who appear too regulary. > > Dunno if playing the +1ing prepatch make you unable to see what was running but it was the case. > > Rev just go from only +1ing to gain point holding ability. > > > > > > I didnt play the +1 prepatch. Your ad hominem is still just making clear you have no leg to stand on. And Rev already had the ability to hold points pre-patch with the right build, that didnt change. What changed is that now the Holosmith and even the Necro +1 now. Sometimes even the Tempest. Yeah. You spam thief has the worst damage and that post-patch is a tank meta but you weren't playing the golden pre-patch class at all, yeah yeah, we trust you. > > > Oh but just to break your point apart further, lets take a look at something slightly more high profile than the AT, mmh? [This]( ) MAT from the same month. Oh whats that? Theyre fighting on the points non-stop? But you told me that *never* happened. Im shocked, you lied? Well not actually *that* shocked,. > > > > Surprise surprise, 2 thieves in each team + 1 rev on blue team. Who is linking counter-argument vid now ? > > What does that have to do with fighting on point? I don't see thieves fighting on point sorry. > > Wait I see is : > > - Misha perma low life. > > Blatant lie. He is constantly fighting, rarely drops below 30% health, only when spiked, and even more rarely actually gets downed. Really you lying this badly should tell everyone how little worth anything you say is. The only moment when he is full life is when he run from point to point or are in outnumbering situation(which take basically all time pre-patch for sure.). > > - Sind just go on point 10 sec before getting to 25% life. > A thief gets pretty low if spiked without defenses up. Thats supposed to be a bad thing? It's good if we don't want fighting and only play a spike and retreat game. Leave it to few class&builds and don't make it the norm. > > - They aren't fighting on mid point if they aren't outnumbering, even considering the size of the point because of pressure. Even when there is nobody in they hesitate to go into to cap because of the potential pressure. > > > > Blatant lie that doesnt even make logical sense. Ignoring that they constantly are fighting on mid point, why do you think the mid point magically makes pressure more likely than every other part of the map? They don't fight ON mid point, they fight AROUND mid point, if you can't get the difference just change game. > > It must be a joke that you link that, 4 players playing stealth and running spiking while other just gravitate around trying to survive. Damages came from nowhere, an aoe can make you half life out. > > More blatant lying. Of course you ignore that they fight on points more than they run (other than Sindrener because he is a thief). Of course you say that they all play stealth even though only the thieves actually use stealth. Of course you say they "gravitate around trying to survive" when they dont do that and just fight on point and survive without much effort. Of course you say that "damage came from nowhere" because you arent good enough to notice what is hitting you. Even warrior who were somewhat sustainable had to kite out of point most of time to survive. I'm not good enough but were you one time at a better rating than me ? Mean it's nice to talk about other level but you know start by play the game before redoing the world on forum. > > You know what, let make a 5v5 thief vs thief game so you can f ully enjoy your vision of skill. > > > > Yeah yeah we get it. You have no argument so you rely on an ad hominem. Again, still didnt play thief. Instead, yknow what, lets just reduce everyones damage to 0 until you outnumber and give everyone pool noodles that let you knock back so you can full enjoy your vision of skill. If resume the type of game you want it's just this. Hard to admit you want cheesy play ? > > > Ah, the "kitten you have a point I cannot respond to, so I try to strawman in a desperate attempt to save face" method. Lets cut it apart. No, I didnt write that. Because here is the thing: as I explained, his mistakes didnt matter. And Ajaxx didnt "time" anything. And if no +1 came, the Rev wouldve survived and kept fighting. The truth is that with just facerolling, he was exactly as effective as Ajaxx was, which is to say, they both failed to kill the other one without help. > > Wow, Ajaxx didn't time anything, let wait to other readers to watch that. > > He didnt really, and youre a fool if you think he did. Let's wait to other readers to watch that. See how people think about you supposed skill level vision. > > Or just went from carrying build to build where you have to play so it hurt. > > There were *no* carrying builds before the patch. There are *no* builds where you have to play now. You got it the exact wrong way around. But again, let me reiterate. The Rev played awfully. He made constant mistakes, and he screwed up every part. Without a +1, he wouldnt have died. He played awfully, and it made no difference. Hence, its the definition of low-skill. Yeah sure there were no carrying builds before the patch, that's why the meta builds gameplay stay basically the same for ages and that there were 4 thieves every games, all was fine in the world. > > That's why we saw this much diversity.... > > > > We saw *more*. *Way* more. Before the patch all 9 classes were viable, each class had multiple viable builds, and we had a large number of possible comps. Now only 7 classes are viable alltogether, and everyone plays the same comp. A thief, Holo or Necro, Ranger or Rev, Tempest or Firebrand, and then any of holo, ranger, rev or necro. Yeah diversity is way down. LMAO. Enjoy you passive mesmer 10 sec setup on mesmer staff auto clone perma kitting while other throw atomic attacks, such fun and diversity. Stop thinking your carrying class was the norm. Currently everyone play the same comp because they have to finish balancing issues wich has nothing to do with the plethora of new builds who **can** exists since the patch. > > Can't hope much from someone promoting carrying builds. Thznks for the smile about the absence of arguments when most of my posts had more than yours. > > > > There were _**NO**_ "Carrying builds" before the patch. If you sucked, no matter what build you were on, you died, you lost, and the game was going in the opponents favour. If you want "carrying builds", this meta is what you need. And no, you have basically no argument at all. *0* of your posts had more arguments than mine. There were, don't be mad because you never perform with it. > > The only who see that are thoses who were the most carried by build prepatch. > > No one was carried by build prepatch. If you had a good build, but didnt play well, you lost hard even against a meme build. No, *everyone* sees that, because its the objective truth. The only ones that dont are the ones who got crushed prepatch because they werent good enough to not make constant mistakes, and want this meta with "carrying builds" and a lack of punishment for mistakes. This meta has builds that "carry people". Were are the stream of you playing pre-patch please ? I already give one of me and can find other. I'm pretty sure everyone want to see your "hard to play" build. > > The problem was that versus some builds, if the opponent facerolled, you still take pressure. This is why the ladder look so bad in terms of class representation. And when My grandma can split out 75% of a pro-player by pushing 1 button, there is a problem. > > No, that is just what *you* thought, but that was because you were bad and kept making mistakes that got you killed. For a good player, if the opponent facerolled, they just easily avoided the damage then killed them and enjoyed the free win. Despite your desperate attempt at making it seem otherwise, the ladder looked *amazing* in terms of class representation. All 9 classes were represented, instead of just 7 right now. And here we have more blatant lies. No class did anywhere close to 75% health in damage with one skill, and yknow, a pro player would just avoid the damage, so "your grandma" couldnt even do that. Yeah continue saying I'm bad from the bottom of PvP, it just make me smile. > > Now that newbies can't do pressure if not timing skills, they all come here to whine that they can't kill anything. > > > > Hahahahaha, oh your dishonesty is getting hilarious. No one can pressure, no matter how you time your skills (or rather, you shouldnt time your skills because your pressure depends on you using everything off cooldown). Its an objective fact that without outnumbering, no one dies. We saw that in MOTA, with the Revs fighting for 7 minutes multiple times, or outright dancing because it was unkillable. > > No, let me tell you what actually happened. Before the patch, the newbies (like you) who couldnt time skills and couldnt help but making mistakes whined about how "oh the meta is unfair, I take so much damage and am always at 15% yadda yadda yadda". Now that you have a meta where you dont have to time any skills, dont have to put even the *slightest* thought in your gameplay, where you can keep making gigantic mistakes and come out unscathed, a meta that is truly the *epitome* of low-skill, now you come here trying desperately to defend it. Acting like the old meta was low-skill when it was actually high-skill, and trying to act like this meta is *totally* high-skill when its actually *very* low-skill. > > Oh and here is something that makes it pretty clear. Bots now are doing better than ever before. And as a result we see more of them than ever before. Why do you think that is? Spoiler: Low-skill meta means simple bots cant get punished and destroyed like they could before. Which dishonesty, I already stated that rev should see a sustain tweak. You are the only one dishonnest when saying that this meta don't need to time skill to perform. About bots, I think it's exactly more about people who never learn to time their skills, even the minimum of rupting bot heal, and they get used to spam high damage skill with no efforts yeah. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 > @"viquing.8254" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > Show me how you come back to 10% from 100% on mesmer while staying in fight please. Apart the tank signet build who has basically 0 output, the better you can get is 6k5 every 30 seconds. > > > > Ignoring that tank signet build, you do know Chrono still exists, right? Besides, we were talking meta. Due to the patch killing diversity, Mesmer isnt viable. > If you limit yourself to only play what is meta and op class, good for you. > Beside the fact that I already stated about tweaks, don't play tank if you want to do damage. The "fact" that you talked about tweaks that wouldnt stop until every class is nerfed, yes? Which would turn PvP even worse? Also, are you willfully ignorant, or are you just missing the part where the tanks are "tanks" not because they run a lot of defense (or really *any*) but because damage is so low having any sustain is enough to nullify it? > > > So > > > 1) No, every class couldn't do it. > > > > Nope, every class can do it. Even Mesmer. You admitted as much yourself. > > > > > 2) You are just writting that few class are apart because of identificated reasons, another stepback, nice, we progress. > > > > > > > Yes, only "few classes". Its just Guardian, Warrior, Revenant, Ranger, Engineer, Elementalist, Necro, Mesmer. Wait, thats literally *every class other than thief*. Hell Im not even sure thief cant do it. So it might just be *literally all classes*. So please, dont lie to make it seem like you have an argument. > We already understand that you are in love with thief, now warrior can't come back to full health in few sec as you can see at Ajaxx vid, same as mesmer, necro, gards and rev. Only ranger or ele and engi can with their combo. > You "understand" yet another blatant lie. No, I dont. And yes, they can. I dont know if youre just willfully ignorant again, or legitimately just too stupid to notice, but take a look at Engineers [most played build](https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Holosmith_-_Explosive_Sword). Do you notice something? Something like, "there is no combo. He just has a healing skill, and thats it", perhaps? Beyond that all the Engineer has is Heat Therapy, but that doesnt heal that much. Here is the funny part: Warrior heals *more*. Their healing skill has lower cooldown and heals for more, and of course we have might makes right. And thats without running Defense or Tactics. So no, Warrior can, as can Mesmer (you named the build yourself) Necro can do it *trivially* easy (Ignoring the whole lifeshroud thing, you do know just how much healing necro has), Guard can do it with absolute ease (its the healing class) and Rev can do it with absolute ease. > > > If you are fighting 7 min you need to : > > > 1) switch to more pressure gear and traits. > > > 2) learn to time your skills. > > > > > > > Ah yes, because the best players in the world didnt "time their skills". And because Condi Rev and Holo arent among the highest pressure classes in the game. Im sorry, but youre an idiot if you think you can explain it away like this. No, if you are fighting 7 minutes, then you are simply experiencing the current state of the game, where no matter what you do, you cant kill the enemy without outnumbering. > Was obindo playing a squish spec in you vid ? The answer is NO. There is more pressuring spec that was we see in your link. > Uh, yes? The first few clips from the montage feature him playing power rev. Same thing. The dancing instead of fighting thing also happened between 2 power revs from what I remember. Theyre "squishy" in the sense that they run little defense. So the answer is YES. Problem is, just having any sustain means youre a tank effectively. > > > Again, don't base your meta on a mota were players didn't want to take risks because they just want to win. > > > > God do you even believe the stupid nonsense you write yourself? They absolutely took risks. The reason they picked these builds arent because "they didnt want to take risks" but because they are objectively the best builds and nothing else comes even close. > You don't understand that the main purpose of 5v5 conquest is about map rotating and not dying to keep the momentum, you should come back to beginners guide. > If not dying was the goal, then we would never see anything other than bunkers. The goal is to get more points than the opponent. If they are good, that means they will take squishy "high risk" classes because they tend to be better at that. But they didnt. Because they openly admitted "yeah anything that isnt a de facto tank is just bad". > > > Stop playing tank if you think damage is low, go play zerk ranger or power mes then come back saying you and opponents are unkillable. > > > > ... you have seriously not been paying attention, have you? Zerk Ranger was played in MotA as well. It was one of the unkillable 7 minute fight on node builds. Used interchangably with Grenade Holo which, you guessed it, also does pretty high damage by current meta standards. Neither was able to ever kill in a 1v1. As for power Mes, didnt I tell you that were talking about meta? Power Mes will of course fail to kill any of these builds, but it might struggle to survive. Thats why it aint viable. > Because it was a damage vs sustain fight. Guess what, game is more fun with no scissor vs scissor only like it was pre-patch but with paper vs stone vs scissor. *Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha*. Oh god youre actually serious? I was sure that you were just trolling, surely no one can be that clueless? Well, guess you are. No, it wasnt a "damage vs sustain fight". It was a "damage vs damage" fight. I told you, these "tank" builds, they run no more defense than any other build. Theyre "tanks" because damage is so low *any* healing is enough. To really hammer the point across how bad it is, thief right now is effectively a "tank" build. Yeah wrap your hand around that. > Moreover, theses players would not die, even pre-patch in a mota context, they would just run away before because a dead cost very much to the team. They would not did the hardtry they does in regular mAt. Whether they die or run away doesnt matter. They lose the fight or the point. Right now, fights are never lost unless outnumbered. > Obviously sustain vs sustain never end, and sustain vs damage take long time, which make damage versus damage end. I hate to break it to you again, but *every* build right now is "sustain", because damage is so low any healing at all (including the healing skill) is enough to nullify it.The only classes that can die are the ones that arent viable. Damage vs damage doesnt end, because what you call "sustain vs sustain" _**IS**_ "damage vs damage". But, since you appear to legitimately be unaware, allow me to explain. See, these builds, Holo, Rev, Ranger, Necro, theyre not bunker builds. Were not talking about things like Prot Holo, Bunker Necro, Boonbeast or Jallis Rev. No these are all *full damage builds*. Theyre not unkillable because they run a ton of healing or defense, theyre unkillable even though they _**DONT**_ run those. > Now sustain's weakness is that they are slow (if it's not the case, here we are about nefs.) so a full sustain team will be outrotated. That's how you counter team running with too much tank. Which is not the case in regular 5v5 btw. > Bunker builds A, arent any slower, and B, these arent bunker builds. Theyre damage builds that, due to how pathetically low damage is in the game, cant be killed without being outnumbered. > > > Ok, let me explain it with another proove because *you* can understand it, let's took yesterday Mighty stream randomly : > > > > > > So : ~17 kills in 10 min. Wow such a tank meta where nobody die. > > > > Man if youre gonna be dishonest, at least be *good* at it. Remember the caveat? The thing I have mentioned as the only way to kill people, multiple times? You kill people by outnumbering them. And oh shock, thats exactly how everyone who died in that clip you wanted to show died. They got outnumbered. That doesnt make it less of a tank meta. None of them ever died in a fair fight after all. > Sooo too tanky specs have weakness ? So they can die ? wow such an information. Even if none of them died in a fair fight, if they didn't do the setup pressure before getting +1ing, opponent would not die. Plus Mighty is FIGHTING (not just running from point to point.), he don't just rollface on point like you seems to think it's the norm. If he didn't position himself, he die like a worm because we aren't in a tank meta where you can facetank everything with everyclass. They dont, no. Mainly because these "tanky specs" are just full-damage specs that cant be killed without being outnumbered because damage is low. None of them died in a fair fight because no one can die in a fair fight. They cant "set up pressure" before +1s come because before +1s come, pressure is 100% meaningless. Now, he is indeed fighting, because he is a firebrand. However, look at what his teammates are doing? Yeah theyre just running all over the map trying to outnumber non-stop. Because that is the meta. > Since the beginning, sustain class are usually slow so they get outrotated, it's pure logic. And even with that when I'm facing zerk ranger with my zerk mes, one of the two die. *Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha*. Oh Im sorry, youre just a riot. Now, if youre facing a Zerk Ranger as Zerk Mesmer, the only one that might die is you. Because Mesmer is unviable. But if it was a Zerk Ranger vs Zerk Ranger, for example? 7 minute fight without anyone dying. Same as all the other zerk builds. And nah, they dont get outrotated because they are the mobile classes anyway. Theyre the damage classes. > > > Even if you look the At final at the end, they live only thanks to team assist and synergy. And even with this, there is still 9 kills in a 10 min game, while worms are playing one of the tankiest comp currently. > > > Ho surprise surprise, there is multiple same class. > > > > > > > > > > They live because their enemies lack the damage to deal with their sustain. I mean its not like they ever lose a 1v1 either. But I guess if you close your eyes to the truth, you can say that youve not seen it. > No they live because they assist each other which is normal. The only issue is the multiple same class who appear too regulary. > They live because their enemies lack the damage. End of story. > > > Dunno if playing the +1ing prepatch make you unable to see what was running but it was the case. > > > Rev just go from only +1ing to gain point holding ability. > > > > > > > > > > I didnt play the +1 prepatch. Your ad hominem is still just making clear you have no leg to stand on. And Rev already had the ability to hold points pre-patch with the right build, that didnt change. What changed is that now the Holosmith and even the Necro +1 now. Sometimes even the Tempest. Yeah. > You spam thief has the worst damage and that post-patch is a tank meta but you weren't playing the golden pre-patch class at all, yeah yeah, we trust you. > If youre not aware, thiefs hardest hitting skill right now is a 4k backstab. Thief has the worst damage by far. If you mean to tell me that stating objective fact is somehow a measure of bias, I dont know what to tell you. And yes, the post-patch is effectively a "tank" meta, because every build is now a tank without the damage. > > > > Oh but just to break your point apart further, lets take a look at something slightly more high profile than the AT, mmh? [This]( ) MAT from the same month. Oh whats that? Theyre fighting on the points non-stop? But you told me that *never* happened. Im shocked, you lied? Well not actually *that* shocked,. > > > > > > Surprise surprise, 2 thieves in each team + 1 rev on blue team. Who is linking counter-argument vid now ? > > > > What does that have to do with fighting on point? > I don't see thieves fighting on point sorry. Except they do, multiple times, but I guess reality just gets in the way, huh? > > > Wait I see is : > > > - Misha perma low life. > > > > Blatant lie. He is constantly fighting, rarely drops below 30% health, only when spiked, and even more rarely actually gets downed. Really you lying this badly should tell everyone how little worth anything you say is. > The only moment when he is full life is when he run from point to point or are in outnumbering situation(which take basically all time pre-patch for sure.). *Hahahahahahahahahahaha*. I dont know whats funnier. How bad your lies are, or the fact that you think people would everb elieve them. The "only moments" he is full life is 90% of the game including multiple situations where he is fighting even or even being outnumbered. Him being low-life is the exception which *only* happens when he is outnumbered *and* being focused. So uh, yeah, another blatant lie. > > > - Sind just go on point 10 sec before getting to 25% life. > > A thief gets pretty low if spiked without defenses up. Thats supposed to be a bad thing? > It's good if we don't want fighting and only play a spike and retreat game. Leave it to few class&builds and don't make it the norm. No, its good if we want *fighting* and dont want a "wait for reinforcements" game. Think logically for a second. If a *thief* being focused by 3 people doesnt die, what do you think that means for 1v1s? Yeah, thats how we got the current garbage meta. And again, outnumbered spiking wasnt the norm. If anything its more common now because its the only way to kill anyone. > > > - They aren't fighting on mid point if they aren't outnumbering, even considering the size of the point because of pressure. Even when there is nobody in they hesitate to go into to cap because of the potential pressure. > > > > > > > Blatant lie that doesnt even make logical sense. Ignoring that they constantly are fighting on mid point, why do you think the mid point magically makes pressure more likely than every other part of the map? > They don't fight ON mid point, they fight AROUND mid point, if you can't get the difference just change game. Pathetic blatant lie. They fight on mid point, as you can see in the video. If you cant argue without lying repeatedly, maybe just concede the argument? > > > It must be a joke that you link that, 4 players playing stealth and running spiking while other just gravitate around trying to survive. Damages came from nowhere, an aoe can make you half life out. > > > > More blatant lying. Of course you ignore that they fight on points more than they run (other than Sindrener because he is a thief). Of course you say that they all play stealth even though only the thieves actually use stealth. Of course you say they "gravitate around trying to survive" when they dont do that and just fight on point and survive without much effort. Of course you say that "damage came from nowhere" because you arent good enough to notice what is hitting you. > Even warrior who were somewhat sustainable had to kite out of point most of time to survive. > I'm not good enough but were you one time at a better rating than me ? > Mean it's nice to talk about other level but you know start by play the game before redoing the world on forum. Blatant lie and attempt at ad hominem as you realise that you have no argument. You really just need to admit youre wrong, youre just digging yourself deeper and deeper. But just to remind you of the truth, the warrior most of the time stood on the point and *very* rarely kited out of the point, only when outnumbered and spiked, which he wasnt very often. > > > You know what, let make a 5v5 thief vs thief game so you can f ully enjoy your vision of skill. > > > > > > > Yeah yeah we get it. You have no argument so you rely on an ad hominem. Again, still didnt play thief. Instead, yknow what, lets just reduce everyones damage to 0 until you outnumber and give everyone pool noodles that let you knock back so you can full enjoy your vision of skill. > If resume the type of game you want it's just this. Hard to admit you want cheesy play ? > Another sentence that makes no sense. No thats the type of game *you* want. *You* want cheesy play. I can only admit that I want a high-skill meta where mistakes can be punished, you have to actually time and setup your skills, and fights ended. You just want a pool noodle meta where sidenoder fights are decided either by other people outnumbering, or through *knockbacks*. As I said, the sidenoder meta is knockbacks. That is the biggest sign that the meta has gone to hell you can get, and you are just refusing to see it. > > > Or just went from carrying build to build where you have to play so it hurt. > > > > There were *no* carrying builds before the patch. There are *no* builds where you have to play now. You got it the exact wrong way around. But again, let me reiterate. The Rev played awfully. He made constant mistakes, and he screwed up every part. Without a +1, he wouldnt have died. He played awfully, and it made no difference. Hence, its the definition of low-skill. > Yeah sure there were no carrying builds before the patch, that's why the meta builds gameplay stay basically the same for ages and that there were 4 thieves every games, all was fine in the world. > Indeed, there werent. The meta builds gameplay changed repeatedly in just months (thief went through, what, 5 builds in just 3 months?), so thats another blatant lie. And of course you focus on a brief period where people started playing thief heavily, when the norm was 2 thieves per match, just as right now. I guess you really cant argue without lying. > > > That's why we saw this much diversity.... > > > > > > > We saw *more*. *Way* more. Before the patch all 9 classes were viable, each class had multiple viable builds, and we had a large number of possible comps. Now only 7 classes are viable alltogether, and everyone plays the same comp. A thief, Holo or Necro, Ranger or Rev, Tempest or Firebrand, and then any of holo, ranger, rev or necro. Yeah diversity is way down. > LMAO. > Enjoy you passive mesmer 10 sec setup on mesmer staff auto clone perma kitting while other throw atomic attacks, such fun and diversity. Stop thinking your carrying class was the norm. There were no carrying classes, those only came to be with the patch. Also, Mesmers playstyle may not have been the most fun, but its still better than lowering diversity down to 3 or 4 comps, from 12+. > Currently everyone play the same comp because they have to finish balancing issues wich has nothing to do with the plethora of new builds who **can** exists since the patch. > Yes, because those "plethora of new builds that can exist" do not exist. We see far fewer builds that can exist post-patch. Everyone plays the same comp because the gap has widened, and because most playstyles are no longer relevant. I can guarantee you this: Any balance changes that dont involve mostly reverting the previous patch will lead to the same lack of diversity we have right now. > > > Can't hope much from someone promoting carrying builds. Thznks for the smile about the absence of arguments when most of my posts had more than yours. > > > > > > > There were _**NO**_ "Carrying builds" before the patch. If you sucked, no matter what build you were on, you died, you lost, and the game was going in the opponents favour. If you want "carrying builds", this meta is what you need. And no, you have basically no argument at all. *0* of your posts had more arguments than mine. > There were, don't be mad because you never perform with it. > There werent. As I explained, unlike right now, if you messed up or misplayed, you died, and thats that. The carrying builds exist only *now*. But let me illustrate how nonsensical what youre saying is. On one hand, you say that the previous patch was so high damage that it was constant oneshots and everyone had to keep moving around the map. On the other hand you say that you could be carried by builds and that you wouldnt have problems when you mess up and fail to time or dodge against those high-damage builds. Even *you* must notice "wait, this is literally contradictory. Both of these cannot be true at the same time". Because they arent. > > > The only who see that are thoses who were the most carried by build prepatch. > > > > No one was carried by build prepatch. If you had a good build, but didnt play well, you lost hard even against a meme build. No, *everyone* sees that, because its the objective truth. The only ones that dont are the ones who got crushed prepatch because they werent good enough to not make constant mistakes, and want this meta with "carrying builds" and a lack of punishment for mistakes. This meta has builds that "carry people". > Were are the stream of you playing pre-patch please ? I already give one of me and can find other. You didnt. > I'm pretty sure everyone want to see your "hard to play" build. > Core Grenade Engineer. Hasnt changed. But please, show us your current "hard to play" build, and I will show you someone messing up repeatedly and not dying because the current meta sucks. > > > The problem was that versus some builds, if the opponent facerolled, you still take pressure. This is why the ladder look so bad in terms of class representation. And when My grandma can split out 75% of a pro-player by pushing 1 button, there is a problem. > > > > No, that is just what *you* thought, but that was because you were bad and kept making mistakes that got you killed. For a good player, if the opponent facerolled, they just easily avoided the damage then killed them and enjoyed the free win. Despite your desperate attempt at making it seem otherwise, the ladder looked *amazing* in terms of class representation. All 9 classes were represented, instead of just 7 right now. And here we have more blatant lies. No class did anywhere close to 75% health in damage with one skill, and yknow, a pro player would just avoid the damage, so "your grandma" couldnt even do that. > Yeah continue saying I'm bad from the bottom of PvP, it just make me smile. Well its either that or you cant even see whats before your own eyes. Bad or ignorant, take your pick. > > > Now that newbies can't do pressure if not timing skills, they all come here to whine that they can't kill anything. > > > > > > > Hahahahaha, oh your dishonesty is getting hilarious. No one can pressure, no matter how you time your skills (or rather, you shouldnt time your skills because your pressure depends on you using everything off cooldown). Its an objective fact that without outnumbering, no one dies. We saw that in MOTA, with the Revs fighting for 7 minutes multiple times, or outright dancing because it was unkillable. > > > > No, let me tell you what actually happened. Before the patch, the newbies (like you) who couldnt time skills and couldnt help but making mistakes whined about how "oh the meta is unfair, I take so much damage and am always at 15% yadda yadda yadda". Now that you have a meta where you dont have to time any skills, dont have to put even the *slightest* thought in your gameplay, where you can keep making gigantic mistakes and come out unscathed, a meta that is truly the *epitome* of low-skill, now you come here trying desperately to defend it. Acting like the old meta was low-skill when it was actually high-skill, and trying to act like this meta is *totally* high-skill when its actually *very* low-skill. > > > > Oh and here is something that makes it pretty clear. Bots now are doing better than ever before. And as a result we see more of them than ever before. Why do you think that is? Spoiler: Low-skill meta means simple bots cant get punished and destroyed like they could before. > Which dishonesty, I already stated that rev should see a sustain tweak. Ok, then we replace Rev with Weaver or Guardian or what have you. Whats next? Are you going to keep nerfing all builds? As I explained to you several times, Rev doesnt have any special amount of sustain. Hell, Power Rev doesnt even really play *any* extra sustain. Its not tanky because of any defenses. Its tanky because damage is too low. So to get it across what your suggestion is ,what you want is for *every* classes heals to be repeatedly nerfed to the point where damage can finally stick and 1v1s can end. Problem is, you take the already super low-skill meta, and make it far more low-skill. > You are the only one dishonnest when saying that this meta don't need to time skill to perform. Except, you showed us that Rev, how he constantly misplayed, and he still wouldnt have died without a +1. You show us that you dont need to time anything, and hell, you can misplay hard repeatedly, and you will perform. That is the truth. And youre too dishonest to admit it. > About bots, I think it's exactly more about people who never learn to time their skills, even the minimum of rupting bot heal, and they get used to spam high damage skill with no efforts yeah. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ > Another sentence that doesnt make sense. No the simple truth is that the meta is so low-skill, so irrelevant, that the mesmer bots can perform well. Because the *only* thing that matters is that your team outrotates theirs. The current meta takes so little effort, a badly programmed bot can get far, just off of his team outrotating. Its the most damning indictement you can get for a low-skill meta. Bots *never* perform well in a high-skill meta, in no game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avey.4201 Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 time to kill has only increased for bad players, we used to have glass v glass fights lasting just as long. fights you broke a sweat keeping up, and whoever made the first mistake missed a dodge, wasted their burst, hit 1 defensive skill 0.3 seconds too early died. before 2/25 if I pressed all buttons I lost, now I press all buttons off cool down and win in spvp. the 3v3 season was a win streak every day, the only loss was role play walking out and waving at enemies/ watching my team 2v3 them. I used to like duels in wvw from time to time, now it's vitallity/toughness/2 dodges/2 invulns/heal from inc damage, seen moa birds with more skill, and bigger brains. flew a kite in wvw last night while role play walking, didn't wanna kill the 2 enemies but after all my defenses were on cooldowns, press all da buttons, pull kite out, role play walk away(never left role play walk to kill them), so they lived 2 seconds longer than before 2/25, and they learned nothing from the fight other than not to pick on kiting a asura. I played the same build since 2016, worked hard at it, I wasn't quite quick enough for some things depending on the day, but I could see my mistakes. now I button mash, timeing coordinated attack chains will get you killed, mashing buttons off cool down +2 entirely random dodges gives the enemy no pattern to learn, nothing to time, nothing to counter, but as long as you press all 10 buttons+dodge key 2x you win. the secret to this meta, more effort you put in the more you hurt yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: Can you stop oversplitting every sentences, It goes unreadable. No, I'm talking about tweak on class that are over-represented. And it's not much, for example I'm pretty sure less blind and weakness from rev will do all the difference. They have to do move step by step patch, but they have to move, no waiting 6 months between patchs. 6k5 heal on 30 sec CD isn't a "full health" comeback, there is no need to talk about this. If you can't do this damage during this time, it's your problem, not mine. About your engi build link, sorry but this build die, even me on mes can kill it. Concerning warrior heal, you have a vid where Ajaxx heal for slighty more than 50%hp. Which is also not a full heal resustain. Rev are a problem right now in regards to sustain options. No dying is a hudge part of conquest as if someone die you had high chance to lose all the map and about the mota you love to spam, it has more to do with few class tweak than with global balance. Did you watch a holo fighting ? Here is just one : did this look like a tank meta , like really ? (Note that I consider holo movement speed little strong currently.). Sure it's dps build doing not enough damage to kill anyone, ooops, it's not the case in reality. If really talk about the dps versions of theses builds. Because you know when you corroborate about signet tank mesmer who is a real tank build with all defensive line taken and 0 damage output, we are far, very far to theses dps builds. So to make it clear, zerk ranger, holo, mesmer, reaper A : does damage. B : aren't unkillable at all. Something tickle me anout you outnumbered things you throw every posts, did you understand that +1ing and being +1ed is the core of 5v5 rotation ? Mean it's not if it's like a 1v1 arena hm. Sorry but I don't 100% die to a zerk ranger because I'm not viable. Did you have a zerk ranger vs zerk ranger 7 min fight, I'm pretty curious, the only way for them to do this it to fight out of point exactly like before a priori. If you don't run tank gear, thief can hit you for 6k4 backstab and 5k6 shadow shot as already linked. If you think thief has the worst damage, you really need to start playing other class. Dunno what you want to try denying things everyone can look in video. Just let them see if they effectively played on point or not. Thief being focused by 3 people didn't die because of 1) his mobility 2) his evade uptime 3) stealth option. That's why usually people don't lose time focusing thief as he can just run away. This is the case since launch. It's lovely how you write that I'm doing ad hominem each time I say you should stop critisize my level while being far under. I don't want a 5v5 thief game, why did you even think this lol. They weren't carrying class, of course, there were like currently, stop joking please : every top stream were all about the same classes, it's pretty naive to don't think there is a reason behind this. I went from 1 passive unfun mesmer build to 3 more active "playable" builds so **I** gain diversity. I will not do a every class details but it's easy to understand that the gap between meta and exotics builds greatly reduce thanks to overload pressure reduction. I did link a vid where I appear and I regulary appear on sind or boyce streams. Now the real question is where were you. Start with this : http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?PiwAEx/lRwoYhsLmJOqL1PLA-z5IeIZKF6VE0tCwxDA Basically if you don't kill anything you don't time your rupts well enough. You can swap to vicious expression when facing high boon class. Want to see how you don't die while rollfacing and how it carry. But you will probably come back here saying it's not viable and ignore it like usual. Rev doesn't have special amount of sustain ? Just look at other post about it, I didn't even want to make this discussion here, for me just with less blind and weakness, It will greatly increase the pressure I do to them. Your "bots that never perform in a high skill meta" is interesting because technically, a mesmer rupt bot who put his rupt with a better reaction time than a human, even if I doubt this kind of bot exists currently, will be way more effective than humans with ping on animation. And timing his rupt on 0.25 keyskill (which a human can't do but a bot theorically can ) is usually considered as skill. Mean you know there is a reason chess, go and even starcraft2 were won by "bots". On the paper a bot can be more efficient than human player, no matter the meta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 > @"viquing.8254" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > Can you stop oversplitting every sentences, It goes unreadable. > Sure. If you dont split your own sentences too far apart. > No, I'm talking about tweak on class that are over-represented. And it's not much, for example I'm pretty sure less blind and weakness from rev will do all the difference. > They have to do move step by step patch, but they have to move, no waiting 6 months between patchs. Then those classes get replaced by the next one. And then by the next one. And then by the next one. Until you have nerfed all of them. And again, at that point the already low-skill meta goes even lower-skill. Its the opposite of a solution. > 6k5 heal on 30 sec CD isn't a "full health" comeback, there is no need to talk about this. If you can't do this damage during this time, it's your problem, not mine. If a class relied on only that, yes, it would be a problem. Thankfully, no class does, either they have extra healing, their healing skill has a much lower cooldown, higher healing, or any combination thereof. > About your engi build link, sorry but this build die, even me on mes can kill it. Nope. In a 1v1, its unkillable. Remember the Obindo montage I showed you? This is what that Engineer was using. And even on Power Rev, Obindo could not even come close to solo-killing him. Damage is too low. > Concerning warrior heal, you have a vid where Ajaxx heal for slighty more than 50%hp. Which is also not a full heal resustain. When he doesnt take more than 50% hp damage between uses (and ignoring the other healing sources), it is. Thats precisely what happened. > Rev are a problem right now in regards to sustain options. You keep repeating that like a mantra, but the sad truth is, they really arent. Their sustain isnt special, in fact its not even the best by any means. But its enough to be unkillable, they have damage to kill in outnumbered situations, and the mandatory knockback(s) for 1v1s. > No dying is a hudge part of conquest as if someone die you had high chance to lose all the map and about the mota you love to spam, it has more to do with few class tweak than with global balance. No, it has *everything* to do with global balance. Damage across the board is too low, so even zerk builds are unkillable. And sure, not dying is important, but here is the thing. Not dying should be something you have to play well enough for. Something which, if you mess up too much, you lose. Not something you have no matter what until you get outnumbered. > Did you watch a holo fighting ? Here is just one : did this look like a tank meta , like really ? (Note that I consider holo movement speed little strong currently.). > Sure it's dps build doing not enough damage to kill anyone, ooops, it's not the case in reality. If really talk about the dps versions of theses builds. Because you know when you corroborate about signet tank mesmer who is a real tank build with all defensive line taken and 0 damage output, we are far, very far to theses dps builds. So to make it clear, zerk ranger, holo, mesmer, reaper A : does damage. B : aren't unkillable at all. Lets take a look, then? First fight, didnt kill until outnumbered. So yes, not enough damage to kill anyone. Second fight, same story. And it goes on like that. So yeah, that shows exactly what I said, you cant kill without outnumbering, so the entire game goes down to *just* outnumbering. Now let me correct your statement: "zerk ranger, holo, mesmer, reaper A : does damage *but not enough to kill without outnumbering*. B : ~~aren't unkillable at all.~~ *Are* unkillable until outnumbered. > Something tickle me anout you outnumbered things you throw every posts, did you understand that +1ing and being +1ed is the core of 5v5 rotation ? > Mean it's not if it's like a 1v1 arena hm. +1s existing is expected, and good. When +1s and outnumbering are the *only* way anyone ever dies, and as a result the entire game gets down to just outnumbering, with macro being the only skill-set used at all as micro dies in a ditch, thats a problem, as its a low-skill meta. Thats what we have. > Sorry but I don't 100% die to a zerk ranger because I'm not viable. Did you have a zerk ranger vs zerk ranger 7 min fight, I'm pretty curious, the only way for them to do this it to fight out of point exactly like before a priori. We saw several in MotA. They fought on point. Sorry, but reality doesnt care that you dont want to accept their unkillable nature. > If you don't run tank gear, thief can hit you for 6k4 backstab and 5k6 shadow shot as already linked. If you think thief has the worst damage, you really need to start playing other class. No, what you linked was a screenshot that showed shadoshot doing 90% of backstabs damage instead of the *possible* 60%, so it was worthless. And no, thievers run Berserkers. 4k is what you get with it. If you think thief doenst have the worst damage, you really need to try playing thief. > Dunno what you want to try denying things everyone can look in video. Just let them see if they effectively played on point or not. Sure, let them see that I am right and you are wrong. I dont know why you think that letting people see helps you, the video shows that you are 100% wrong, as appears to be the norm. > Thief being focused by 3 people didn't die because of 1) his mobility 2) his evade uptime 3) stealth option. That's why usually people don't lose time focusing thief as he can just run away. This is the case since launch. Stealth didnt help him, but yes, shortbow 5 is always good. > It's lovely how you write that I'm doing ad hominem each time I say you should stop critisize my level while being far under. And another ad hominem. Wowza. > I don't want a 5v5 thief game, why did you even think this lol. Im talking about the pool noodle with knockback and outnumbering game. > They weren't carrying class, of course, there were like currently, stop joking please : every top stream were all about the same classes, it's pretty naive to don't think there is a reason behind this. Except of course, they werent. We have already established the fact that diversity was *way* higher pre-patch, and every single class was playable. You saw every class in the top streams, not like right now where there are indeed always the same classes. And thats because there were no carrying builds before, but are now. > I went from 1 passive unfun mesmer build to 3 more active "playable" builds so **I** gain diversity. I will not do a every class details but it's easy to understand that the gap between meta and exotics builds greatly reduce thanks to overload pressure reduction. _**HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA**_. Oh man youre too much. Mesmer is not playable right now. Those builds you play now? You couldve played them pre-patch, and spoiler: They wouldve been more effective. And no, its easy to understand that the gap between meta and "exotic" builds has greatly _**INCREASED**_ thanks to the lowering of damage across the board and the degeneration of the meta into a outnumbering and knockback meta. Every class has fewer playable builds (other than Rev), and 2 classes arent playable. > I did link a vid where I appear and I regulary appear on sind or boyce streams. Now the real question is where were you. You havent. > Start with this : http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?PiwAEx/lRwoYhsLmJOqL1PLA-z5IeIZKF6VE0tCwxDA Basically if you don't kill anything you don't time your rupts well enough. You can swap to vicious expression when facing high boon class. Want to see how you don't die while rollfacing and how it carry. But you will probably come back here saying it's not viable and ignore it like usual. Why would I play a build that got so much worse as a result of the patch that its no longer viable? Especially when its the same boring burst Mesmer as it was before. I have seen them around a lot though. They have *never* killed me in a 1v1. Even if they played perfectly. The damage was just not there. And remember, Im playing Core Grenade Engi. > Rev doesn't have special amount of sustain ? Just look at other post about it, I didn't even want to make this discussion here, for me just with less blind and weakness, It will greatly increase the pressure I do to them. > It indeed doesnt. > Your "bots that never perform in a high skill meta" is interesting because technically, a mesmer rupt bot who put his rupt with a better reaction time than a human, even if I doubt this kind of bot exists currently, will be way more effective than humans with ping on animation. And timing his rupt on 0.25 keyskill (which a human can't do but a bot theorically can ) is usually considered as skill. Except, interrupting doesnt matter much, and otherwise the bot simply lacks the neccessary work put into it to be able to effectively fight. If you ever faced a bot, you would know. They play like bad players with an occasional gimmick. But right now theyre doing well, because skill doesnt matter. > Mean you know there is a reason chess, go and even starcraft2 were won by "bots". Oh, I guess Ill have to explain bots. Fun. First, the difference is that chess, go and starcraft 2 bots are written by big companies with a lot of funding and resources, and the neccessary know-how. They can use high-power equipment, and even have access to previous data. Additionally, the games are heavily rule-bound, with large restrictions on what any player can, or cannot do (less so for starcraft, but more on that later). This means its far more easy to create a framework that can handle the challenges. But even that comes with issues. See, in the case of Starcraft, the AI did well ... so long as the players played conventionally. If they werent for an unusual setup, the AI faltered. It couldnt deal with that. Which leads us to .... > On the paper a bot can be more efficient than human player, no matter the meta. > This. This is not true. The problem with a game like GW2 is that while it might seem a lot simpler than chess for a human, its far more complex for a bot. Previous data is largely useless because there is no real "standard game". A bot simply wouldnt handle it. And mind you, that if it was written well. Its not. Its a shoddy bot made by some individual without the resources or the know-how. Its bad. But it wins right now, because skill is meaningless and macro is the name of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiyo.3578 Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" : > > We clearly don't play the same game. > > Just get in mind that there are people who enjoy more the game post patch and it's not because 3 people spam the opposite on forum that it will change this. > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" : > > Appart that in SF everyone can time block or counter Ryu can't block only Zangief attacks then having to run away. > > What bother me the most is that when reading this forum you seems to live in a unkilable meta world where nobody can die while in every game I play everyone die, even if they all go tank, they will go outrotate and die. > > So no it's not full of unkilable things in my games. > > Lol I MEAN > > For starters Zangief is a grappler. His main combat style is all about using literally unlockable throws as his best source of damage. Even with blocking you still take damage, and positioning so you aren't vulnerable to attacks is a huge part of the game, called footsies. There's even the zoner archetype that's all about ranging opponents from a distance and when they are in close range it's primarily in very short bursts before trying to get range again. > > Maybe unkillable bunker meta is a misnomer. But when I can land every part of a 20 second primary DPS cooldown against a target on a Berserker's amulet and their health bar barely moves and they're back up to full health because of their passive healing without even using their healing skill something is fundamentally wrong with the damage numbers. That's what I mean. Slushy. Unimpactful. Slow. Watching people sit in my full trap combo on DH and press no buttons but take, at most, 60% of their health from it then run away with superspeed and full heal is pretty unfun and the issue with damage atm imo. Why does gsword spin on guardian do less damage than the symbol? Why does comboing BOTH together not kill someone? Damage can be this low, but players need to be equally as fragile - this giving out free heals, dr, and protection like candy has got to stop. Ranger, rev and holo are the biggest offenders of this, and surprise, they're the 3 best classes right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 > @"Shiyo.3578" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" : > > > We clearly don't play the same game. > > > Just get in mind that there are people who enjoy more the game post patch and it's not because 3 people spam the opposite on forum that it will change this. > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" : > > > Appart that in SF everyone can time block or counter Ryu can't block only Zangief attacks then having to run away. > > > What bother me the most is that when reading this forum you seems to live in a unkilable meta world where nobody can die while in every game I play everyone die, even if they all go tank, they will go outrotate and die. > > > So no it's not full of unkilable things in my games. > > > > Lol I MEAN > > > > For starters Zangief is a grappler. His main combat style is all about using literally unlockable throws as his best source of damage. Even with blocking you still take damage, and positioning so you aren't vulnerable to attacks is a huge part of the game, called footsies. There's even the zoner archetype that's all about ranging opponents from a distance and when they are in close range it's primarily in very short bursts before trying to get range again. > > > > Maybe unkillable bunker meta is a misnomer. But when I can land every part of a 20 second primary DPS cooldown against a target on a Berserker's amulet and their health bar barely moves and they're back up to full health because of their passive healing without even using their healing skill something is fundamentally wrong with the damage numbers. That's what I mean. Slushy. Unimpactful. Slow. > > Watching people sit in my full trap combo on DH and press no buttons but take, at most, 60% of their health from it then run away with superspeed and full heal is pretty unfun and the issue with damage atm imo. > Thats what happens when you lower damage too much. > Why does gsword spin on guardian do less damage than the symbol? Why does comboing BOTH together not kill someone? Damage can be this low, but players need to be equally as fragile - this giving out sustain, free haels, protection constantly has got to stop. Ranger, rev and holo are the biggest offenders of this, and surprise, they're the 3 best classes right now. Here is the issue. If people are just as fragile, then the game degenerates further. The meta will change to low/instant cast skills, and telegraphed skills will be dropped entirely. It gets even more low-skill than it already is. That isnt the solution. We simply need to return damage. Sure, if you dont want pre-patch level damage, fine, but the lowest it should be is HoT or Specialisation patch. Instead damage right now is lower than it has ever been *in the entiry history of GW2*. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiyo.3578 Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 I didn't say pre-patch level of damage, but if you do a strong telegraphed easy to avoid combo like symbol + gsword spin 2 you should chunk people and they shouldn't be able to just full heal off it after. The issue is some stuff still does pre-patch level damage but most of the game doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixxed.5862 Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 > @"Sazukikrah.5036" said: > oh and **please** don't **forget** > Who is leaving Anet next? The company is too incompetent. > > >  > > How the kitten are you mad about this? Incompetent?! After all they did exactly what they told us. They never even intended to release the regular balance patches more often and were very clear on that! "Moving forward we want to do smaller adjustments more often - with competitive balance ideally closer to every 4-6 weeks". That's honestly pretty impossible to misunderstand. They could have hardly been more clear. We got these smaller balance adjustments every 4-6 weeks (which has never happened before btw) plus the occasional minor tweak in between. Credit where it's due. Btw the smaller patches were mostly good ones as well, specifically targeting currently problematic meta builds. They failed to appropriately nerf rev's sustain however. Other than that they did a pretty good job overall. After all we can still expect a "real" balance patch this month as it's been almost 4 months now - that has been their usual cadence for years. Could be that it's delayed to july... But if so I'd like it to be more sizeable than the average patch with more reworks and a healthy amount of PvP/WvW specific splits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 > @"Shiyo.3578" said: > I didn't say pre-patch level of damage, but if you do a strong telegraphed easy to avoid combo like symbol + gsword spin 2 you should chunk people and they shouldn't be able to just full heal off it after. > > The issue is some stuff still does pre-patch level damage but most of the game doesn't. Nothing does pre-patch level damage, not even Holo (and its not particularly close). But yeah, telegraphed combos dont hit for much because nothing does. You basically cant punish people for mistakes anymore. Thats why the whole concept of "just lower damage by 33%" was stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiyo.3578 Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 Mesmers can still instantly kill me, power revs randomly do stupid damage, condi thieves can almost instantly kill me, holosmiths can randomly instantly kill me, sic'em soulbeasts can randomly instantly kill me and burn guards can randomly instantly kill me. I think that's it, everything else does relatively balanced damage or too little for the set up, telegraphs, cast times, or risk(scepter weaver) involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > Can you stop oversplitting every sentences, It goes unreadable. > > > > Sure. If you dont split your own sentences too far apart. Lol kiddy who just take care to split every sentences, it's a tip for you but you probably don't want people to go into what you write for reasons. Did you just write that we will go into lower-skill meta by nerfing some current sustain WHILE you whine for ages that people are unkillable ? Hmmm. Sorry to open your eyes in the morning but mesmer hasn't much lower cooldown, higher healing or whatever. Ask for obindo to play power mes then, if he can't kill anything on holo. ~(^-^)~ Yeah rev sustain isn't special, it should even be up, I'm sure everyone in this forum share your opinion lol. You see a vid where a class gut 60% to 75% life on 1.5 sec and you continue spamming that nobody can die and no one have dps, interesting. Give me the link of the several 7 min ranger fight in mota, so that we can analyse this more in details, see if they effectively fight on point or if they just kite around. I give a screenshot of me on eternal coliseum taking thief damage and you answer me that thief can't do this damage, then I give you the usual tip : learn to do damage before whining nobody can do damage. It's lovely how you write that I'm doing ad hominem each time I say you should stop critisize my level while being far under. Rofl, diversity wasn't better pre-patch but you would need to go to leaderboard to figure it out. Mesmer is not playable and the gap between meta and exotic increase ? Guy I'm the proove that's it's not the case when I reach my usual ladder position playing the 3 builds I wrote whereas before the patch only the passive clone perma kite can do this. Even if you have no clue about class and meta, you should at least don't come back in this subject as long as I already explain this to you. I was the mesmer taking the 14k opening, here is another on the "meta" build : [ ]( ) now do me the pleasure of share your play please. I already predict your answer about the mesmer build I linked, just go to watch Jazz vid or look at my rank seeing how it's "unviable" and unable to kill anyone. Just stop talk about class you didn't have 1 clue about. I never faced a bot currently, seems I'm not bad enough to meet them... Bot theory is that computer bot **can** play better than human, particulary on gw2 where timing take a hudge part. Now if you explain that bots aren't at this level, why did you complain about them, did you die to them ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 > @"Shiyo.3578" said: > Mesmers can still instantly kill me, power revs randomly do stupid damage, condi thieves can almost instantly kill me, holosmiths can randomly instantly kill me, and sic'em soulbeasts can randomly instantly kill me and burn guards can randomly instantly kill me. > > I think that's it, everything else does relatively balanced damage or too little for the set up, telegraphs, cast times, or risk(scepter weaver) involved. Don't worry, people don't know how to do damage because it was so easy pre-patch that they just had to randomly push buttons, I try to explain this to them but it look hard looking at the number of pages. ¯\(°_o)/¯ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 > @"viquing.8254" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > Can you stop oversplitting every sentences, It goes unreadable. > > > > > > > Sure. If you dont split your own sentences too far apart. > Lol kiddy who just take care to split every sentences, it's a tip for you but you probably don't want people to go into what you write for reasons. > If you rapidly switch topics when you write, then I need to split it up to respond to each point. Youre the one splitting up, Im just responding. > Did you just write that we will go into lower-skill meta by nerfing some current sustain WHILE you whine for ages that people are unkillable ? Hmmm. I have already explained why. If you just lower healing, then mistakes are just as unpunishable, but any damage sticks. The meta degenerates into instant or low cast time skills, and timing is thrown right out the window. > Sorry to open your eyes in the morning but mesmer hasn't much lower coolding, higher healing or whatever. And Mesmer is underpowered. > Ask for obindo to play power mes then, if he can't kill anything on holo. ~(^-^)~ Power Mesmer cannot kill any of those builds. It also cannot sidenode. Its underpowered. > Yeah rev sustain isn't special, it should even be up, I'm sure everyone in this forum share your opinion lol. It isnt. Its even outclassed by several classes. Thats not why its unkillable. > You see a vid where a class gut 60% to 75% life on 1.5 sec and you continue spamming that nobody can die and no one have dps, interesting. First of all, its not even close to 75% (you seem to be fond of lying to exaggerate), second, if a long cooldown burst fails to kill and is immediately negated by healing, well that doesnt help killing anyone, does it? > Give me the link of the several 7 min ranger fight in mota, so that we can analyse this more in details, see if they effectively fight on point or if they just kite around. Look it up yourself. Though, spoiler: They effectively fight on point, just as you would expect. They do *not* kite around. > I give a screenshot of me on eternal coliseum taking thief damage and you answer me that thief can't do this damage, then I give you the usual tip : learn to do damage before whining nobody can do damage. Without context, without any proof its in a normal situation, and with damage numbers that under normal circumstances are *impossible*. My guess is, shenanigans. Maybe you tried mightstacking? > Rofl, diversity wasn't better pre-patch but you would need to go to leaderboard to figure it out. Mesmer if not playable and the gap between meta and exotic increase ? Guy I'm the proove that's it's not the case when I reach my usual ladder position playing the 3 builds I wrote whereas before the patch only the passive clone perma kite can do this. Even if you have no clue about class and meta, you should at least don't come back in this subject as long as I already explain this to you. Diversity *was* better pre-patch. Thats an objective truth. You can look at the ladderboard pre-patch, or at tournaments, or at random streams. It was *much* better. And no, no matter how highly you think of yourself, thats not proof. You know what is proof? The fact that in the entire MOTA tournament, 0 people played Mesmer. Even people known for Mesmer dropped Mesmer. Its bad. So your 3 builds are not playable. And no, pre-patch those builds were actually viable, unlike now. We even saw them in the odd AT finals. > I was the mesmer taking the 14k opening, here is another on the "meta" build : [ ]( ) Ah ,the one where you got hit by a thief with 25 might stacks, said it was a 14k opening instead of 11k, and then acted like those 11k were the norm rather than the extreme exception. I remember. I thought you wanted to forget though, seeing how your dishonesty with it got exposed so quickly and so easily. > I already predict your answer about the mesmer build I linked, just go to watch Jazz vid or look at my rank seeing how it's "unviable" and unable to kill anyone. > Just stop talk about class you didn't have 1 clue about. Or, I take a look at the leaderboard or MotA, see the complete absence of Mesmer, see that Misha dropped Mesmer, and know its unviable. If youre having success with an unviable class, good for you, but remember, you wouldve had more success pre-patch. > I never faced a bot currently, seems I'm not bad enough to meet them... > Given that you openly admitted you also dont ever face meta, its more likely youre just extremely lucky. Maybe thats how you managed to climb with an unviable build. > Bot theory is that computer bot **can** play better than human, particulary on gw2 where timing take a hudge part. Now if you explain that bots aren't at this level, why did you complain about them, did you die to them ? > Man you have a bad habit of talking about things you dont know. I *just* explained why a bot cant do that. Bots are good when they can follow established or predictable patterns. GW2 is a game that requires creative thinking, something bots simply cant do. Also, I didnt complain about the bots (though it is annoying how prevalent they are), I pointed out that with this meta becoming a really low-skill meta, bots are doing better than ever. And bots doing well is a dead giveaway of a low-skill meta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 > @"viquing.8254" said: > > @"Shiyo.3578" said: > > Mesmers can still instantly kill me, power revs randomly do stupid damage, condi thieves can almost instantly kill me, holosmiths can randomly instantly kill me, and sic'em soulbeasts can randomly instantly kill me and burn guards can randomly instantly kill me. > > > > I think that's it, everything else does relatively balanced damage or too little for the set up, telegraphs, cast times, or risk(scepter weaver) involved. > > Don't worry, people don't know how to do damage because it was so easy pre-patch that they just had to randomly push buttons, I try to explain this to them but it look hard looking at the number of pages. ¯\(°_o)/¯ Hahahahahahahahaha. No. They know how to do damage, it was hard pre-patch (since you had to time everything, set up your own telegraphs all while avoiding the enemy telegraphs), its easy now (you just randomly push buttons. Pre-patch that gets you instantly killed and loses you the game. Post-patch its the optimal way of playing). The damage just isnt there. As Avey said, the best way to play is to just faceroll, trying to put thought into your gameplay just hurts you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 In the end games pvp modes unarguably dying fast, like real fast and devs are way to lazy to fix it or they just don't want to. Pvp matches always have the same classes/builds spamming the exact same crap, if their not bots lol. Wvw is dying to due to no support with the addition of the players mentalities. The players this game attracts are funny. 3 friends came back for a night of wvw after not playing for a long while and lasted about a hr before laughing and moving to a different game. One good example of the players in wvw is as follows. 7 of us were fighting about 15+ enemy players out side of the main keep entrance as they were ganking any spawners that were leaving keep so we would try and guard them till they disengaged enough to continue on to their zerg. We caught them off for about 20 mins and after o e of their pushes we retreated into keep and as we entered keep saw about 50+ teammate players all zerging out of the keep, so we naturally thought haha let's go boys this gonna be gratifying. As we left the main keep the zerg just ran by those players and ignored them to go 200 yards to the left to take a small keep that was empty. So we figured that take a sec and their prob gonna come over and deal with this group that's now 20+. Nope, they moved on to take another empty keep lmao. We laughed and and logged out. The players gw2 attracts dont even want altercations and want to just run around mindlessly destroying npc's and take empty camps lol. The zergs players will chase one guy down but unless they have to won't fight even moderate size groups, no wonder they hate roamer haha. When u witness somthing g like above ur Hope's for good fights gets lost fast. My bud threw In text wow bet taking that keep was so much more fun gameplay then fighting the group u ignored lmao and someone replied well somtime u get spawn camped and sometimes not lol, like wtf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 @"UNOwen.7132" : "Ofc you can't link something that dont exit" => @"UNOwen.7132" 2020. When I say something about A vid I linked after. But somehow only people arguing against you have to prove something because you are the universal truth. The best is that you didn't even look at prooves link. Go back to holo vid where he is fighting mid to see that I don't extrapolate. Mesmer isn't that far under many builds. But from someone who think that rev sustain is fine I haven't much hope. Your subjective opinion concern only you, I already see plethora of people in game forum trying to make their view as universal truth. When I look the ladderboard pre-patch I see 40% thieves top 20. Sure it was much better lol. Pre-patch power mirage was viable, such a news, teach me with your high mesmer vision why we never saw it, even on leadderboard while now there is a least 1 top 100. This is factual data but you somehow can't accept it. I'm pretty dishonnest liking vids of me prepatch, can we see you now or you are too afraid everyone see your rating, builds or opponents ? I follow misha evolution, thanks I even regulary meet him in game as opponent. About bot, launching a rupt during a keyskill or bursting after a temporisation IS established or predictable pattern. @"Psycoprophet.8107" : WvW is dying mainly because they thought it was all about Guilds while it was multiple individuality players who made many investments in it. Plus the fact that they remove fights around supply to move them on weak structures because plebs want easy cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 > @"viquing.8254" said: > @"UNOwen.7132" : > "Ofc you can't link something that dont exit" => @"UNOwen.7132" 2020. When I say something about A vid I linked after. But somehow only people arguing against you have to prove something because you are the universal truth. Sure, I concede that it exists. Assuming you are that Nium guy. You know. > The best is that you didn't even look at prooves link. Go back to holo vid where he is fighting mid to see that I don't extrapolate. I did. You clearly didnt. You are extrapolating. > Mesmer isn't that far under many builds. But from someone who think that rev sustain is fine I haven't much hope. Yes, thats why it was literally not played at all in the MOTA or seen at all in the leaderboards. Mesmer is *totally* fine. No its really far under all other builds. But hey, somebody should tell Misha he couldve played Mesmer in the MotA because some random jackass said that Mesmer is "totally fine". I doubt you believe this rubbish yourself. > Your subjective opinion concern only you, I already see plethora of people in game forum trying to make their view as universal truth. When I look the ladderboard pre-patch I see 40% thieves top 20. Sure it was much better lol. You didnt. You saw as many thieves as you do now. Because thief is one of the few classes that havent changed much. But you saw all 9 classes, with multiple entries each, in the leaderboard. On the other hand, how many warriors and mesmers are in the top 100 now? Do we have the token 1 or 2 now, or is it still 0? > Pre-patch power mirage was viable, such a news, teach me with your high mesmer vision why we never saw it, even on leadderboard while now there is a least 1 top 100. This is factual data but you somehow can't accept it. We saw power core Mesmer, even in AT finals. Power Mirage wasnt played as much because it was honestly just outclassed. But we did also see a power mirage on the leaderboard. On the other hand, do tell me who that power mirage in the top 100 is. Because I doubt there is one. > I'm pretty dishonnest liking vids of me prepatch, can we see you now or you are too afraid everyone see your rating, builds or opponents ? Strawman. Nice. Guess being dishonest is just second nature to you. No, what was dishonest is that you linked a thief with 25 might stacks, said that he did 14k damage when he did 11k damage, and then acted as if that damage was the norm rather than the extreme exception. > About bot, launching a rupt during a keyskill or bursting after a temporisation IS established or predictable pattern. > What does the bot do about rotations? What does it do when multiple players are around it? With builds it cant actually see or know? It can never be as good as a player. Well, not with the current level of technology at least. For that matter, it cant even handle switchups in rotations well. Prior to the patch the bots struggled, as people carefully timed their skills and had to setup whatever they did. Which meant a lot of variations in gameplay. Too much for a shoddily written bot to handle. Now that that is out of the window and people just use everything off cd, its much more predictable and as a result, much easier for the bot to handle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiyo.3578 Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 WvW tries to make everyone happy and in return makes no one happy. Condi thief is still too strong and I'd guess more nerfs are inc honestly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rukia.4802 Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 Before patch was more fun but it wasn't any less of a clown fiesta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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