Scourge completely unimpacted by balance changes

[Rawrakai.2908]

Amazing to see how quickly a community can go from "kill it, kill it with fire!" to "wow why did you have to kill it so hard" when in reality there was no killing needed at all, nor was there any killing done.

 

Comments below assume the following traits: Sand Savant, Vital Persistence, Path of Corruption.

 

Let's go through these changes to see why:

* **Manifest Sand Shade (WvW and PvP only): The spawn duration of sand shades has been reduced from 20 seconds to 10 seconds.**

Have you ever stood in a sand shade for more than 4 seconds? Did you survive? When a scourge drops a sand shade, they blow all their life force to condi bomb you and then the shade sits there and does nothing with the exception of sand shroud which pulses for 6 seconds. This change does _literally nothing_ to the strength of scourge nor does it change gameplay. This has significant impact if you don't use sand savant, but maybe people will now realize that it was the better trait the whole time anyway.

* **Nefarious Favor (WvW and PvP only): The recharge time of this ability has been increased from 5 seconds to 8 seconds.**

Firstly, this changes the cooldown from 4 seconds to 6.5 seconds. Scourges are never limited by the cooldown of their shade strikes, the are limited by life force. This does have some impact in the matchups where you conserve lifeforce to spam this skill when you want to corrupt as many boons as possible which only makes the spellbreaker matchup worse since the torment pressure is what kills most players and the only boon that really matters is resistance. However, the spellbreaker matchup actually got _better_ since their best skill got nerfed by 12.5% which was very significant(Wooooooo!).

* **Dhuumfire: No longer triggers on activating desert shroud.**

If you stand in the pulsing desert shroud, you're dead. It doesn't matter that there's some less burning now, you're just dead. This has some impact in big teamfights where people do stand in your shades but if they are not constantly dodge/block/invuln your aoe spam the tiny amount of missing burning damage on one of your skills will not determine if they live or die. This is not PvE, we do not fight training golems.

* **Manifest Sand Shade - Fixed a bug that allowed strikes from this skill to hit from multiple sand shades on the same target.**

Not once did I experience this bug, because not once was I not running Sand Savant and nor did my opponents because it's _insane_ not to. How was this ever relevant?

 

I was in favor of some nerfs to scourge given nerfs to spellbreaker and guardian, but not this. This makes the most dominant trait (Sand Savant) even more dominant, since it's basically impossible to maintain 3 sand shades now. I've played 10 games(not real ranked games anymore unfortunately) since the update and I think they were even easier to win before because people go into a fight with me thinking that somehow this is going to go differently.

 

My previous post on scourge: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/10641/scourge-high-level-overview

[Chaith.8256]

Just a little correction as well, the Spellbreaker match-up is easier than a 12.5% nerf on Full Counter, there was an additional bug fix to Revenge Counter where it was double enchanting Full Counter twice for 20% increased damage. That was fixed.. so Scourges should find that Full Counter is losing a modifier of 20% and base damage of 12.5% from before.

 

Edit: Scourge still an insta-lock in meta comps, no teamfight condition build holds a candle to it, still.

[Morty.1789]

lol let the slaying continue

[Rawrakai.2908]

> @Morty.1789 said:

> lol let the slaying continue

 

Gonna go for top 10 next season (:

[Mikeskies.1536]

Doesn't the change also prevent the Scourge and the Sand Shade from hitting the same target with F abilities?

[Rawrakai.2908]

> @Mikeskies.1536 said:

> Doesn't the change also prevent the Scourge and the Sand Shade from hitting the same target with F abilities?

 

It's possible. I don't really know the nature of the bug fix, I didn't even know about it until someone complained on reddit. But the videos i've seen showing absurdly high torment stacks always involved multiple shades. I have not experienced any difference since the patch in my games.

[Mikeskies.1536]

> @Rawrakai.2908 said:

> > @Mikeskies.1536 said:

> > Doesn't the change also prevent the Scourge and the Sand Shade from hitting the same target with F abilities?

>

> It's possible. I don't really know the nature of the bug fix, I didn't even know about it until someone complained on reddit. But the videos i've seen showing absurdly high torment stacks always involved multiple shades. I have not experienced any difference since the patch in my games.

 

I believe Scourge counts as a Shade for F2-F5 abilities, which would reduce Scourge condition output by half when using Sand Savant.

[Rawrakai.2908]

> @Mikeskies.1536 said:

> > @Rawrakai.2908 said:

> > > @Mikeskies.1536 said:

> > > Doesn't the change also prevent the Scourge and the Sand Shade from hitting the same target with F abilities?

> >

> > It's possible. I don't really know the nature of the bug fix, I didn't even know about it until someone complained on reddit. But the videos i've seen showing absurdly high torment stacks always involved multiple shades. I have not experienced any difference since the patch in my games.

>

> I believe Scourge counts as a Shade for F2-F5 abilities, which would reduce Scourge condition output by half when using Sand Savant.

 

If that were true, it would be very easy to notice. In the games I played, I noticed no difference in damage output at all.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

Sand Savant is something i used for a day, then dropped as I could cover more area and get more overall DPS with Demonic Lore. Ive learned to live with smaller shades and I could never go back :)

 

No one sees it coming so I can easily cover more area, choke points....etc at once and i love eet

 

To each their own I guess. What works well for me may not work well for others.

[Rawrakai.2908]

> @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

> Sand Savant is something i used for a day, then dropped as I could cover more area and get more overall DPS with Demonic Lore. Ive learned to love with smaller shades and I could never go back :)

>

> To each their own

 

But it takes three times as long to set up bonuses for Blood as Sand, Sand Soul, and to start your aoe bombs. How do you have enough time to use staff and scepter/torch skills while constantly respawning shades?

Enemies have an easier time dodging your initial condi bomb (especially at range) because the circles are so much smaller. A single sand shade covers the whole point with Sand Savant.

 

[silent killer.5732]

> @Rawrakai.2908 said:

> > @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

> > Sand Savant is something i used for a day, then dropped as I could cover more area and get more overall DPS with Demonic Lore. Ive learned to love with smaller shades and I could never go back :)

> >

> > To each their own

>

> But it takes three times as long to set up bonuses for Blood as Sand, Sand Soul, and to start your aoe bombs. How do you have enough time to use staff and scepter/torch skills while constantly respawning shades?

> Enemies have an easier time dodging your initial condi bomb (especially at range) because the circles are so much smaller. A single sand shade covers the whole point with Sand Savant.

>

 

And you can replace them to another spot two times before the the before the nerf cd 5 sec

Now i don't really know because i didn't played any pvp since then

 

 

[kKagari.6804]

In regards to point number 4, you probably did experience the bug, in pvp if you got sandwiched between a scourge and his share you'd have taken two packets of damage from MSS instead of one. It was more prevalent when they used desert shroud because of a second bug that caused it to pulse MSS on every pulse of desert shroud (which is doubled if you sandwiched). This strike also triggered dhuumfire.

 

So there are two issues at play there.

 

You can absolutely survive desert shroud now, if you stand. Your essentially only taking 32-35 ticks of damage, that do less damage than bleed.

 

I can't stress this enough, if you stand still, you negate a lot of the scores dps. If course, this requires the correct timing too, it's like knowing when to cleanse

[FaboBabo.3581]

> @kKagari.6804 said:

> In regards to point number 4, you probably did experience the bug, in pvp if you got sandwiched between a scourge and his share you'd have taken two packets of damage from MSS instead of one. It was more prevalent when they used desert shroud because of a second bug that caused it to pulse MSS on every pulse of desert shroud (which is doubled if you sandwiched). This strike also triggered dhuumfire.

>

> So there are two issues at play there.

>

> You can absolutely survive desert shroud now, if you stand. Your essentially only taking 32-35 ticks of damage, that do less damage than bleed.

>

> I can't stress this enough, if you stand still, you negate a lot of the scores dps. If course, this requires the correct timing too, it's like knowing when to cleanse

 

Bleed = 100 dmg. 32 * 100 = 32000. Edit ; wtf i was good in math once.

 

 

Hmmmm...

 

Edit : I just came back from work , It's late ; shame delete my post, ty

[kKagari.6804]

> @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > @kKagari.6804 said:

> > In regards to point number 4, you probably did experience the bug, in pvp if you got sandwiched between a scourge and his share you'd have taken two packets of damage from MSS instead of one. It was more prevalent when they used desert shroud because of a second bug that caused it to pulse MSS on every pulse of desert shroud (which is doubled if you sandwiched). This strike also triggered dhuumfire.

> >

> > So there are two issues at play there.

> >

> > You can absolutely survive desert shroud now, if you stand. Your essentially only taking 32-35 ticks of damage, that do less damage than bleed.

> >

> > I can't stress this enough, if you stand still, you negate a lot of the scores dps. If course, this requires the correct timing too, it's like knowing when to cleanse

>

> Bleed = 100 dmg. 32 * 100 = 32000.

>

>

> Hmmmm...

 

The damage you take from torment is less than bleed if you stand still. So many scrubs forget about this and they twitch around, neither kiting the scourge or taking reduced damage. 32*100 is 3200 btw, not 32000

[Brujeria.7536]

> @Rawrakai.2908 said:

> Amazing to see how quickly a community can go from "kill it, kill it with fire!" to "wow why did you have to kill it so hard" when in reality there was no killing needed at all, nor was there any killing done.

>

> Comments below assume the following traits: Sand Savant, Vital Persistence, Path of Corruption.

>

> Let's go through these changes to see why:

> * **Manifest Sand Shade (WvW and PvP only): The spawn duration of sand shades has been reduced from 20 seconds to 10 seconds.**

> Have you ever stood in a sand shade for more than 4 seconds? Did you survive? When a scourge drops a sand shade, they blow all their life force to condi bomb you and then the shade sits there and does nothing with the exception of sand shroud which pulses for 6 seconds. This change does _literally nothing_ to the strength of scourge nor does it change gameplay. This has significant impact if you don't use sand savant, but maybe people will now realize that it was the better trait the whole time anyway.

> * **Nefarious Favor (WvW and PvP only): The recharge time of this ability has been increased from 5 seconds to 8 seconds.**

> Firstly, this changes the cooldown from 4 seconds to 6.5 seconds. Scourges are never limited by the cooldown of their shade strikes, the are limited by life force. This does have some impact in the matchups where you conserve lifeforce to spam this skill when you want to corrupt as many boons as possible which only makes the spellbreaker matchup worse since the torment pressure is what kills most players and the only boon that really matters is resistance. However, the spellbreaker matchup actually got _better_ since their best skill got nerfed by 12.5% which was very significant(Wooooooo!).

> * **Dhuumfire: No longer triggers on activating desert shroud.**

> If you stand in the pulsing desert shroud, you're dead. It doesn't matter that there's some less burning now, you're just dead. This has some impact in big teamfights where people do stand in your shades but if they are not constantly dodge/block/invuln your aoe spam the tiny amount of missing burning damage on one of your skills will not determine if they live or die. This is not PvE, we do not fight training golems.

> * **Manifest Sand Shade - Fixed a bug that allowed strikes from this skill to hit from multiple sand shades on the same target.**

> Not once did I experience this bug, because not once was I not running Sand Savant and nor did my opponents because it's _insane_ not to. How was this ever relevant?

>

> I was in favor of some nerfs to scourge given nerfs to spellbreaker and guardian, but not this. This makes the most dominant trait (Sand Savant) even more dominant, since it's basically impossible to maintain 3 sand shades now. I've played 10 games(not real ranked games anymore unfortunately) since the update and I think they were even easier to win before because people go into a fight with me thinking that somehow this is going to go differently.

>

> My previous post on scourge: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/10641/scourge-high-level-overview

 

Especially the lifeforce part is true, the hard part is managing and gaining lifeforce, further punishing by increasing the cooldowns is just bad. You basicly have a hard time to GET lifeforce, and if you need that condi remove and boon corrupt in quick succession and willingly investing the hard gained life force you get punished. They basicly add a nerf behind something thats already punished due to lifeforce and its sloppy generation. Like seriously, wtf. Necro is the only profession with a resource management, everything else can be blindly spamed.

[kKagari.6804]

> @Brujeria.7536 said:

> > @Rawrakai.2908 said:

> > Amazing to see how quickly a community can go from "kill it, kill it with fire!" to "wow why did you have to kill it so hard" when in reality there was no killing needed at all, nor was there any killing done.

> >

> > Comments below assume the following traits: Sand Savant, Vital Persistence, Path of Corruption.

> >

> > Let's go through these changes to see why:

> > * **Manifest Sand Shade (WvW and PvP only): The spawn duration of sand shades has been reduced from 20 seconds to 10 seconds.**

> > Have you ever stood in a sand shade for more than 4 seconds? Did you survive? When a scourge drops a sand shade, they blow all their life force to condi bomb you and then the shade sits there and does nothing with the exception of sand shroud which pulses for 6 seconds. This change does _literally nothing_ to the strength of scourge nor does it change gameplay. This has significant impact if you don't use sand savant, but maybe people will now realize that it was the better trait the whole time anyway.

> > * **Nefarious Favor (WvW and PvP only): The recharge time of this ability has been increased from 5 seconds to 8 seconds.**

> > Firstly, this changes the cooldown from 4 seconds to 6.5 seconds. Scourges are never limited by the cooldown of their shade strikes, the are limited by life force. This does have some impact in the matchups where you conserve lifeforce to spam this skill when you want to corrupt as many boons as possible which only makes the spellbreaker matchup worse since the torment pressure is what kills most players and the only boon that really matters is resistance. However, the spellbreaker matchup actually got _better_ since their best skill got nerfed by 12.5% which was very significant(Wooooooo!).

> > * **Dhuumfire: No longer triggers on activating desert shroud.**

> > If you stand in the pulsing desert shroud, you're dead. It doesn't matter that there's some less burning now, you're just dead. This has some impact in big teamfights where people do stand in your shades but if they are not constantly dodge/block/invuln your aoe spam the tiny amount of missing burning damage on one of your skills will not determine if they live or die. This is not PvE, we do not fight training golems.

> > * **Manifest Sand Shade - Fixed a bug that allowed strikes from this skill to hit from multiple sand shades on the same target.**

> > Not once did I experience this bug, because not once was I not running Sand Savant and nor did my opponents because it's _insane_ not to. How was this ever relevant?

> >

> > I was in favor of some nerfs to scourge given nerfs to spellbreaker and guardian, but not this. This makes the most dominant trait (Sand Savant) even more dominant, since it's basically impossible to maintain 3 sand shades now. I've played 10 games(not real ranked games anymore unfortunately) since the update and I think they were even easier to win before because people go into a fight with me thinking that somehow this is going to go differently.

> >

> > My previous post on scourge: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/10641/scourge-high-level-overview

>

> Especially the lifeforce part is true, the hard part is managing and gaining lifeforce, further punishing by increasing the cooldowns is just bad. You basicly have a hard time to GET lifeforce, and if you need that condi remove and boon corrupt in quick succession and willingly investing the hard gained life force you get punished. They basicly add a nerf behind something thats already punished due to lifeforce and its sloppy generation. Like seriously, kitten. Necro is the only profession with a resource management, everything else can be blindly spamed.

 

What? Revenant? Druid? Holosmith? Mesmers? Thieves?

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Shhhhhh. Shut up!

 

Let people scream that builds are dead _please_ .

[FaboBabo.3581]

> @kKagari.6804 said:

> > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > > @kKagari.6804 said:

> > > In regards to point number 4, you probably did experience the bug, in pvp if you got sandwiched between a scourge and his share you'd have taken two packets of damage from MSS instead of one. It was more prevalent when they used desert shroud because of a second bug that caused it to pulse MSS on every pulse of desert shroud (which is doubled if you sandwiched). This strike also triggered dhuumfire.

> > >

> > > So there are two issues at play there.

> > >

> > > You can absolutely survive desert shroud now, if you stand. Your essentially only taking 32-35 ticks of damage, that do less damage than bleed.

> > >

> > > I can't stress this enough, if you stand still, you negate a lot of the scores dps. If course, this requires the correct timing too, it's like knowing when to cleanse

> >

> > Bleed = 100 dmg. 32 * 100 = 32000.

> >

> >

> > Hmmmm...

>

> The damage you take from torment is less than bleed if you stand still. So many scrubs forget about this and they twitch around, neither kiting the scourge or taking reduced damage. 32*100 is 3200 btw, not 32000

 

I could say something like ; whops one 0 too much, not intended, but that would be lying.

 

Mb here, it's late.

[kKagari.6804]

> @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > @kKagari.6804 said:

> > > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > > > @kKagari.6804 said:

> > > > In regards to point number 4, you probably did experience the bug, in pvp if you got sandwiched between a scourge and his share you'd have taken two packets of damage from MSS instead of one. It was more prevalent when they used desert shroud because of a second bug that caused it to pulse MSS on every pulse of desert shroud (which is doubled if you sandwiched). This strike also triggered dhuumfire.

> > > >

> > > > So there are two issues at play there.

> > > >

> > > > You can absolutely survive desert shroud now, if you stand. Your essentially only taking 32-35 ticks of damage, that do less damage than bleed.

> > > >

> > > > I can't stress this enough, if you stand still, you negate a lot of the scores dps. If course, this requires the correct timing too, it's like knowing when to cleanse

> > >

> > > Bleed = 100 dmg. 32 * 100 = 32000.

> > >

> > >

> > > Hmmmm...

> >

> > The damage you take from torment is less than bleed if you stand still. So many scrubs forget about this and they twitch around, neither kiting the scourge or taking reduced damage. 32*100 is 3200 btw, not 32000

>

> I could say something like ; whops one 0 too much, not intended, but that would be lying.

>

> Mb here, it's late.

 

You're not making sense.

[phokus.8934]

You honestly expected them to bring out the nerfs to classes the day after the season ended? Think about that for a little bit.

[Crinn.7864]

> @Rawrakai.2908 said:

> > @Mikeskies.1536 said:

> > Doesn't the change also prevent the Scourge and the Sand Shade from hitting the same target with F abilities?

>

> It's possible. I don't really know the nature of the bug fix, I didn't even know about it until someone complained on reddit. But the videos i've seen showing absurdly high torment stacks always involved multiple shades. I have not experienced any difference since the patch in my games.

\> @Rawrakai.2908 said:

> > @Mikeskies.1536 said:

> > > @Rawrakai.2908 said:

> > > > @Mikeskies.1536 said:

> > > > Doesn't the change also prevent the Scourge and the Sand Shade from hitting the same target with F abilities?

> > >

> > > It's possible. I don't really know the nature of the bug fix, I didn't even know about it until someone complained on reddit. But the videos i've seen showing absurdly high torment stacks always involved multiple shades. I have not experienced any difference since the patch in my games.

> >

> > I believe Scourge counts as a Shade for F2-F5 abilities, which would reduce Scourge condition output by half when using Sand Savant.

>

> If that were true, it would be very easy to notice. In the games I played, I noticed no difference in damage output at all.

 

Anytime there was a overlap between either

a) a shade and a shade

or

b) you and a shade

you used to get extra torment. The bug fix did nerf pvp scourge because Sand Savant scourge would get double torment whenever they hit someone in the overlap between them and the shade.

 

Sand Savant Scourge did benefit from the stacking bug. This was tested and confirmed literally the day PoF launched, if you believe otherwise you are wrong.

 

[Ravezaar.4951]

Scourge is crap now

[Vertep.2498]

> @kKagari.6804 said:

> > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > > @kKagari.6804 said:

> > > In regards to point number 4, you probably did experience the bug, in pvp if you got sandwiched between a scourge and his share you'd have taken two packets of damage from MSS instead of one. It was more prevalent when they used desert shroud because of a second bug that caused it to pulse MSS on every pulse of desert shroud (which is doubled if you sandwiched). This strike also triggered dhuumfire.

> > >

> > > So there are two issues at play there.

> > >

> > > You can absolutely survive desert shroud now, if you stand. Your essentially only taking 32-35 ticks of damage, that do less damage than bleed.

> > >

> > > I can't stress this enough, if you stand still, you negate a lot of the scores dps. If course, this requires the correct timing too, it's like knowing when to cleanse

> >

> > Bleed = 100 dmg. 32 * 100 = 32000.

> >

> >

> > Hmmmm...

>

> The damage you take from torment is less than bleed if you stand still. So many scrubs forget about this and they twitch around

 

did you forgot its mostly impossible to stay in 1 place if you arnt bunker? especially form jsut any necro, not just scourge you will always want to have gap from him which means you will be always moving because every necro almost always want to get melee range with his enemy, if no then you need to move nonstop from any new his aoe to dont get melted in it

[Velimere.7685]

> @kKagari.6804 said:

> > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > > @kKagari.6804 said:

> > > > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > > > > @kKagari.6804 said:

> > > > > In regards to point number 4, you probably did experience the bug, in pvp if you got sandwiched between a scourge and his share you'd have taken two packets of damage from MSS instead of one. It was more prevalent when they used desert shroud because of a second bug that caused it to pulse MSS on every pulse of desert shroud (which is doubled if you sandwiched). This strike also triggered dhuumfire.

> > > > >

> > > > > So there are two issues at play there.

> > > > >

> > > > > You can absolutely survive desert shroud now, if you stand. Your essentially only taking 32-35 ticks of damage, that do less damage than bleed.

> > > > >

> > > > > I can't stress this enough, if you stand still, you negate a lot of the scores dps. If course, this requires the correct timing too, it's like knowing when to cleanse

> > > >

> > > > Bleed = 100 dmg. 32 * 100 = 32000.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Hmmmm...

> > >

> > > The damage you take from torment is less than bleed if you stand still. So many scrubs forget about this and they twitch around, neither kiting the scourge or taking reduced damage. 32*100 is 3200 btw, not 32000

> >

> > I could say something like ; whops one 0 too much, not intended, but that would be lying.

> >

> > Mb here, it's late.

>

> You're not making sense.

 

He's apologizing for his mathematical error and conceding your point simultaneously.

[kKagari.6804]

> @Vertep.2498 said:

> > @kKagari.6804 said:

> > > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > > > @kKagari.6804 said:

> > > > In regards to point number 4, you probably did experience the bug, in pvp if you got sandwiched between a scourge and his share you'd have taken two packets of damage from MSS instead of one. It was more prevalent when they used desert shroud because of a second bug that caused it to pulse MSS on every pulse of desert shroud (which is doubled if you sandwiched). This strike also triggered dhuumfire.

> > > >

> > > > So there are two issues at play there.

> > > >

> > > > You can absolutely survive desert shroud now, if you stand. Your essentially only taking 32-35 ticks of damage, that do less damage than bleed.

> > > >

> > > > I can't stress this enough, if you stand still, you negate a lot of the scores dps. If course, this requires the correct timing too, it's like knowing when to cleanse

> > >

> > > Bleed = 100 dmg. 32 * 100 = 32000.

> > >

> > >

> > > Hmmmm...

> >

> > The damage you take from torment is less than bleed if you stand still. So many scrubs forget about this and they twitch around

>

> did you forgot its mostly impossible to stay in 1 place if you arnt bunker? especially form jsut any necro, not just scourge you will always want to have gap from him which means you will be always moving because every necro almost always want to get melee range with his enemy, if no then you need to move nonstop from any new his aoe to dont get melted in it

 

My method prior to the patch was to dodge out of the shade's AoE, and tank the scourge's desert shroud by standing still, since he'll continuously snare you with cripple one way or another. Taking reduced damage from only one source is better than both, this is indisputable. Now that dhuumfire is nerfed and the stacking is nerfed there is no reason people should twitch around fighting the scourge. You either knock him back, to mitigate the desert shroud damage pretty much completely, or you stand still if you can't remove the cripple. The damage is significantly less.