Conditiion Rework for pvp questionmark

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > The fact that I am not only competitive versus burn guard but win consistently belies your theory crafting.

> > >

> >

> > The fact that I have seen some of the best players be consistently *crushed* against condi builds just because they didnt have enough cleanses however makes it quite likely to be true. In fact, I have not seen the opposite happen ever. If they dont have enough condi cleanses, they lose, end of story.

> >

> > > Seriously, I‘ve fought every condi build in WvW. With my cleanses I occasionally overstep and get burned. But I win plenty. And I overstep versus power builds just as often.

> >

> > There is no such thing as "overstepping" again condi. The sad truth of condi builds is that, unlike power builds, their damage is largely (or at times, entirely) unavoidable. At best, you can delay it, but that too is insufficient. Thats why you *need* to have multiple cleanses. You can *only* survive if you have them, otherwise you die. Against power builds? You dont need to have weakness. Or protection. Against them you can actually just dodge their telegraphed high impact skills, and youre just fine. So yeah, Im gonna say that I highly doubt that the burn guards were any good if you survived without multiple condi cleanses. And thats to say nothing of condi thief, condi ranger, condi mirage (Deadeye means no plasma, means no resistance) or condi Rev. Each of those just kills you without you having so much as a chance to stop it. Because what are you going to do? Have 100% dodge uptime to avoid condi rangers and condi thieves constant multi-hit barrage? Yeah right.

>

> Deadeye has a stolen skill with resistance. But it is a bit RNG so I’ll grant that.

>

 

Oh its not RNG. You just get it from Revenant. Problem is, Revenant can just rip boons, so it wont save you. It would against Mesmer, but Mesmers just gives you quickness.

 

> I‘ll admit I have a lot of active avoidance. Blinds, stealth, teleports. So I can survive without needing that much cleanse.

>

 

And those are not going to help you against condi builds. Blind is awful against multi-hits an on-X effects, stealth is so trivially easy to punish that attempting to go into it is just a free kill for the enemy. Teleports would be the only one, but immob screws that.

 

> And of course you have to have some cleanse. Cleanse is the unique mitigation versus condition damage. Armor is the unique mitigation versus power damage.

>

 

You have to have a *lot* of cleanse. Besides, that logic doesnt really work out. *Health* is the unique mitigation. Armor is stronger vs power, but health is stronger vs condi (Since it cant ignore it). Cleanse is more equivalent to the active defenses. Except those defenses *should* work against condi. They dont.

 

> But you don’t need that much if you can bring other mitigation. Guard especially has no cover condi so you can get away with less.

 

You *absolutely* need that much, simply because "other mitigation" is practically useless. What do you blind against a condi soulbeast? What do you block? Most of their application comes from on-X effects, autoattacks and things with near instant cast. Burn guard isnt much better. Most of their burning comes from Virtue of Justice. Which means, if youre hit 3 times, you get burned. So what, youre going to blind/evade 100% of their attacks? Obviously, thats not possible. You *will* be hit. And you will be burned. And without cleanses, you die. And of course, they have setups for everything else that you can likewise practically not avoid.

 

And its the same story with just about all condi builds. Active mitigation doesnt help against them because their skills are designed in a way that renders active mitigation useless. And of course, you need to have a lot of cleanses to even stand a chance, because the builds are designed to be viable even against high cleanse builds. So your 2 cleanses will not suffice, and you simply die against any competent condi player, as your active mitigation fails to do *anything*.

[saerni.2584]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > > The fact that I am not only competitive versus burn guard but win consistently belies your theory crafting.

> > > >

> > >

> > > The fact that I have seen some of the best players be consistently *crushed* against condi builds just because they didnt have enough cleanses however makes it quite likely to be true. In fact, I have not seen the opposite happen ever. If they dont have enough condi cleanses, they lose, end of story.

> > >

> > > > Seriously, I‘ve fought every condi build in WvW. With my cleanses I occasionally overstep and get burned. But I win plenty. And I overstep versus power builds just as often.

> > >

> > > There is no such thing as "overstepping" again condi. The sad truth of condi builds is that, unlike power builds, their damage is largely (or at times, entirely) unavoidable. At best, you can delay it, but that too is insufficient. Thats why you *need* to have multiple cleanses. You can *only* survive if you have them, otherwise you die. Against power builds? You dont need to have weakness. Or protection. Against them you can actually just dodge their telegraphed high impact skills, and youre just fine. So yeah, Im gonna say that I highly doubt that the burn guards were any good if you survived without multiple condi cleanses. And thats to say nothing of condi thief, condi ranger, condi mirage (Deadeye means no plasma, means no resistance) or condi Rev. Each of those just kills you without you having so much as a chance to stop it. Because what are you going to do? Have 100% dodge uptime to avoid condi rangers and condi thieves constant multi-hit barrage? Yeah right.

> >

> > Deadeye has a stolen skill with resistance. But it is a bit RNG so I’ll grant that.

> >

>

> Oh its not RNG. You just get it from Revenant. Problem is, Revenant can just rip boons, so it wont save you. It would against Mesmer, but Mesmers just gives you quickness.

>

> > I‘ll admit I have a lot of active avoidance. Blinds, stealth, teleports. So I can survive without needing that much cleanse.

> >

>

> And those are not going to help you against condi builds. Blind is awful against multi-hits an on-X effects, stealth is so trivially easy to punish that attempting to go into it is just a free kill for the enemy. Teleports would be the only one, but immob screws that.

>

> > And of course you have to have some cleanse. Cleanse is the unique mitigation versus condition damage. Armor is the unique mitigation versus power damage.

> >

>

> You have to have a *lot* of cleanse. Besides, that logic doesnt really work out. *Health* is the unique mitigation. Armor is stronger vs power, but health is stronger vs condi (Since it cant ignore it). Cleanse is more equivalent to the active defenses. Except those defenses *should* work against condi. They dont.

>

> > But you don’t need that much if you can bring other mitigation. Guard especially has no cover condi so you can get away with less.

>

> You *absolutely* need that much, simply because "other mitigation" is practically useless. What do you blind against a condi soulbeast? What do you block? Most of their application comes from on-X effects, autoattacks and things with near instant cast. Burn guard isnt much better. Most of their burning comes from Virtue of Justice. Which means, if youre hit 3 times, you get burned. So what, youre going to blind/evade 100% of their attacks? Obviously, thats not possible. You *will* be hit. And you will be burned. And without cleanses, you die. And of course, they have setups for everything else that you can likewise practically not avoid.

>

> And its the same story with just about all condi builds. Active mitigation doesnt help against them because their skills are designed in a way that renders active mitigation useless. And of course, you need to have a lot of cleanses to even stand a chance, because the builds are designed to be viable even against high cleanse builds. So your 2 cleanses will not suffice, and you simply die against any competent condi player, as your active mitigation fails to do *anything*.

 

Against guard it is RNG because you may or may not get a random stolen skill off one in the chamber. It’s rng at best. Not always rng.

 

Again, I beat burn guard. I’ve beaten them repeatedly. And again, good players who know how to play and are appropriately built for small scale roaming.

 

I don’t know how else I can say it. You are refusing to accept that I’m either telling the truth about winning versus burn guard, or alternatively, that the burn guards I fought were “good enough” to prove the point. You’ve also refused to accept that some cleanse is equivalent to wearing armor against power damage. You can’t compare a burn guard free stacking burn with no cleanse to a zerk build striking, for example, a medium armor target.

 

I’ll try to pull up some numbers and arrive at a fair DPS number for burn guard for comparison. And I’ll try to get some comparison numbers for zerk guard. But, again, whatever the numbers are, I’ve experienced being spiked by both burn guard and power guard and burn is not in my experience more damage.

 

 

[Ghostof Luzifer.6159]

> @"Bazsi.2734" said:

> > @"Ghostof Luzifer.6159" said:

> >Oviously alot more thought would need to be put into the actual system, (which I havent done at all) , but i think it could maybe work.

>

> I mean that sounds pretty convincing.

 

My goal was not to convince anyone. It was to provoke thoughts and discussion(, which was achieved). That is the reason why I put this remark in the post in the first place. I dont like the way condition gameplay works, therefore I suggest a change and put up an idea of what I think would be a change for the better. If anet pays me I will put more thought into it. You could also send me some money if you want :)

 

The remark is nothing but the truth. It is also true for most ideas, before they get realized. Since I havent done anything further than forumlate an idea, I dont get why you are so passive aggressive about it.

[Bazsi.2734]

> @"Ghostof Luzifer.6159" said:

> > @"Bazsi.2734" said:

> > > @"Ghostof Luzifer.6159" said:

> > >Oviously alot more thought would need to be put into the actual system, (which I havent done at all) , but i think it could maybe work.

> >

> > I mean that sounds pretty convincing.

>

> My goal was not to convince anyone. It was to provoke thoughts and discussion(, which was achieved). That is the reason why I put this remark in the post in the first place. I dont like the way condition gameplay works, therefore I suggest a change and put up an idea of what I think would be a change for the better. If anet pays me I will put more thought into it. You could also send me some money if you want :)

>

> The remark is nothing but the truth. It is also true for most ideas, before they get realized. Since I havent done anything further than forumlate an idea, I dont get why you are so passive aggressive about it.

 

So here it is without being passive: all the changes you suggested in the OP would fundamentally break the game, the entire combat system is designed around the idea that only the damage from conditions can scale with stats(they removed expertise as amulet provided stat from PvP because it broke this rule).

Generating discussions which redirect attention from the actual issues is your right to do, but your suggestion is terrible, the conversation about it is pointless(nothing short of a full rework of the entire game could make scaling soft CC-s work), and I wish you hadn't made this post at all. Hope that was direct enough for you.

 

Also, since you're the kind that's entitled to money for using basic thinking skills, please wait for payment before making further posts! Or we might just assume you do them for free.

[Ghostof Luzifer.6159]

> @"Bazsi.2734" said:

> > @"Ghostof Luzifer.6159" said:

> > > @"Bazsi.2734" said:

> > > > @"Ghostof Luzifer.6159" said:

> > > >Oviously alot more thought would need to be put into the actual system, (which I havent done at all) , but i think it could maybe work.

> > >

> > > I mean that sounds pretty convincing.

> >

> > My goal was not to convince anyone. It was to provoke thoughts and discussion(, which was achieved). That is the reason why I put this remark in the post in the first place. I dont like the way condition gameplay works, therefore I suggest a change and put up an idea of what I think would be a change for the better. If anet pays me I will put more thought into it. You could also send me some money if you want :)

> >

> > The remark is nothing but the truth. It is also true for most ideas, before they get realized. Since I havent done anything further than forumlate an idea, I dont get why you are so passive aggressive about it.

>

> So here it is without being passive: all the changes you suggested in the OP would fundamentally break the game, the entire combat system is designed around the idea that only the damage from conditions can scale with stats(they removed expertise as amulet provided stat from PvP because it broke this rule).

> Generating discussions which redirect attention from the actual issues is your right to do, but your suggestion is terrible, the conversation about it is pointless(nothing short of a full rework of the entire game could make scaling soft CC-s work), and I wish you hadn't made this post at all. Hope that was direct enough for you.

>

> Also, since you're the kind that's entitled to money for using basic thinking skills, please wait for payment before making further posts! Or we might just assume you do them for free.

 

daamn spicy

you could for example set the baseline for conditions effects lower than it is now. So youd either have to invest into damage or debuffer potential or have a weakend hybrid version. There are solutions oout there you just have to find them. In that case it would be wise to scale this stat exponentially. So if oyu want to play a debuffer spec using cripple chill, slow etc (Edit: what if fear woould make you run faster, that way increasing the distance, but not the duration. That would be a lot of fun imo.) youd have to invest all into this new stat which will results in decreased condition uptime of the damaging conditions resulting in lower damage. On the same time if you want to put out condi damage youd have to invest into condition duration decreasing the effectiveness of debuffing codnitions. I like the idea that confusion only ticks when actiivated, bleeding could be like a burst thing and burning more sustained damage with low stacks and torment only if you actually move.

 

Dont be so distructive, discussion fuels progress. Even if it is a bad idea it might produce good ideas. Take a deep breath relax, take a walk, there are many ways thorugh which you can relieve this anger inside of you. If you want we can talk about it.

(On a serious note I am sorry if i offended you.)

 

 

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > > > The fact that I am not only competitive versus burn guard but win consistently belies your theory crafting.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > The fact that I have seen some of the best players be consistently *crushed* against condi builds just because they didnt have enough cleanses however makes it quite likely to be true. In fact, I have not seen the opposite happen ever. If they dont have enough condi cleanses, they lose, end of story.

> > > >

> > > > > Seriously, I‘ve fought every condi build in WvW. With my cleanses I occasionally overstep and get burned. But I win plenty. And I overstep versus power builds just as often.

> > > >

> > > > There is no such thing as "overstepping" again condi. The sad truth of condi builds is that, unlike power builds, their damage is largely (or at times, entirely) unavoidable. At best, you can delay it, but that too is insufficient. Thats why you *need* to have multiple cleanses. You can *only* survive if you have them, otherwise you die. Against power builds? You dont need to have weakness. Or protection. Against them you can actually just dodge their telegraphed high impact skills, and youre just fine. So yeah, Im gonna say that I highly doubt that the burn guards were any good if you survived without multiple condi cleanses. And thats to say nothing of condi thief, condi ranger, condi mirage (Deadeye means no plasma, means no resistance) or condi Rev. Each of those just kills you without you having so much as a chance to stop it. Because what are you going to do? Have 100% dodge uptime to avoid condi rangers and condi thieves constant multi-hit barrage? Yeah right.

> > >

> > > Deadeye has a stolen skill with resistance. But it is a bit RNG so I’ll grant that.

> > >

> >

> > Oh its not RNG. You just get it from Revenant. Problem is, Revenant can just rip boons, so it wont save you. It would against Mesmer, but Mesmers just gives you quickness.

> >

> > > I‘ll admit I have a lot of active avoidance. Blinds, stealth, teleports. So I can survive without needing that much cleanse.

> > >

> >

> > And those are not going to help you against condi builds. Blind is awful against multi-hits an on-X effects, stealth is so trivially easy to punish that attempting to go into it is just a free kill for the enemy. Teleports would be the only one, but immob screws that.

> >

> > > And of course you have to have some cleanse. Cleanse is the unique mitigation versus condition damage. Armor is the unique mitigation versus power damage.

> > >

> >

> > You have to have a *lot* of cleanse. Besides, that logic doesnt really work out. *Health* is the unique mitigation. Armor is stronger vs power, but health is stronger vs condi (Since it cant ignore it). Cleanse is more equivalent to the active defenses. Except those defenses *should* work against condi. They dont.

> >

> > > But you don’t need that much if you can bring other mitigation. Guard especially has no cover condi so you can get away with less.

> >

> > You *absolutely* need that much, simply because "other mitigation" is practically useless. What do you blind against a condi soulbeast? What do you block? Most of their application comes from on-X effects, autoattacks and things with near instant cast. Burn guard isnt much better. Most of their burning comes from Virtue of Justice. Which means, if youre hit 3 times, you get burned. So what, youre going to blind/evade 100% of their attacks? Obviously, thats not possible. You *will* be hit. And you will be burned. And without cleanses, you die. And of course, they have setups for everything else that you can likewise practically not avoid.

> >

> > And its the same story with just about all condi builds. Active mitigation doesnt help against them because their skills are designed in a way that renders active mitigation useless. And of course, you need to have a lot of cleanses to even stand a chance, because the builds are designed to be viable even against high cleanse builds. So your 2 cleanses will not suffice, and you simply die against any competent condi player, as your active mitigation fails to do *anything*.

>

> Against guard it is RNG because you may or may not get a random stolen skill off one in the chamber. It’s rng at best. Not always rng.

>

 

Ah, One in the Chamber. Yeah Ive never used that one, so fair enough.

 

> Again, I beat burn guard. I’ve beaten them repeatedly. And again, good players who know how to play and are appropriately built for small scale roaming.

>

 

And I have seen some of the best players fail to beat burn guards because they only had 2 cleanses. So yeah, given my personal experience, and the simple on-paper thing, I am going to doubt what youre saying.

 

> I don’t know how else I can say it. You are refusing to accept that I’m either telling the truth about winning versus burn guard, or alternatively, that the burn guards I fought were “good enough” to prove the point. You’ve also refused to accept that some cleanse is equivalent to wearing armor against power damage. You can’t compare a burn guard free stacking burn with no cleanse to a zerk build striking, for example, a medium armor target.

>

 

I know what Im saying is the truth. You are contradicting it. Ergo I have no reason to assume what youre saying is the truth. And no, cleanse isnt equivalent to wearing armour, Ive already explained, *health* is the equivalent. Toughness is the equivalent to cleanses. You *have* to have 5 or so cleanses to be able to beat a condi build. You dont have to have Toughness at all to beat a power build. And no, I cant, but here is the thing. Until the fifth cleanse, Burn Guard still *rapidly* outpaces the zerk guardian.

 

> I’ll try to pull up some numbers and arrive at a fair DPS number for burn guard for comparison. And I’ll try to get some comparison numbers for zerk guard. But, again, whatever the numbers are, I’ve experienced being spiked by both burn guard and power guard and burn is not in my experience more damage.

>

>

 

For a single spike, yes, power spikes a bit faster and a bit harder. But after that one spike, Power Guards damage rapidly falls off, while Burn guards damage is consistently high until about 20 seconds in.

[saerni.2584]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > > > > The fact that I am not only competitive versus burn guard but win consistently belies your theory crafting.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > The fact that I have seen some of the best players be consistently *crushed* against condi builds just because they didnt have enough cleanses however makes it quite likely to be true. In fact, I have not seen the opposite happen ever. If they dont have enough condi cleanses, they lose, end of story.

> > > > >

> > > > > > Seriously, I‘ve fought every condi build in WvW. With my cleanses I occasionally overstep and get burned. But I win plenty. And I overstep versus power builds just as often.

> > > > >

> > > > > There is no such thing as "overstepping" again condi. The sad truth of condi builds is that, unlike power builds, their damage is largely (or at times, entirely) unavoidable. At best, you can delay it, but that too is insufficient. Thats why you *need* to have multiple cleanses. You can *only* survive if you have them, otherwise you die. Against power builds? You dont need to have weakness. Or protection. Against them you can actually just dodge their telegraphed high impact skills, and youre just fine. So yeah, Im gonna say that I highly doubt that the burn guards were any good if you survived without multiple condi cleanses. And thats to say nothing of condi thief, condi ranger, condi mirage (Deadeye means no plasma, means no resistance) or condi Rev. Each of those just kills you without you having so much as a chance to stop it. Because what are you going to do? Have 100% dodge uptime to avoid condi rangers and condi thieves constant multi-hit barrage? Yeah right.

> > > >

> > > > Deadeye has a stolen skill with resistance. But it is a bit RNG so I’ll grant that.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Oh its not RNG. You just get it from Revenant. Problem is, Revenant can just rip boons, so it wont save you. It would against Mesmer, but Mesmers just gives you quickness.

> > >

> > > > I‘ll admit I have a lot of active avoidance. Blinds, stealth, teleports. So I can survive without needing that much cleanse.

> > > >

> > >

> > > And those are not going to help you against condi builds. Blind is awful against multi-hits an on-X effects, stealth is so trivially easy to punish that attempting to go into it is just a free kill for the enemy. Teleports would be the only one, but immob screws that.

> > >

> > > > And of course you have to have some cleanse. Cleanse is the unique mitigation versus condition damage. Armor is the unique mitigation versus power damage.

> > > >

> > >

> > > You have to have a *lot* of cleanse. Besides, that logic doesnt really work out. *Health* is the unique mitigation. Armor is stronger vs power, but health is stronger vs condi (Since it cant ignore it). Cleanse is more equivalent to the active defenses. Except those defenses *should* work against condi. They dont.

> > >

> > > > But you don’t need that much if you can bring other mitigation. Guard especially has no cover condi so you can get away with less.

> > >

> > > You *absolutely* need that much, simply because "other mitigation" is practically useless. What do you blind against a condi soulbeast? What do you block? Most of their application comes from on-X effects, autoattacks and things with near instant cast. Burn guard isnt much better. Most of their burning comes from Virtue of Justice. Which means, if youre hit 3 times, you get burned. So what, youre going to blind/evade 100% of their attacks? Obviously, thats not possible. You *will* be hit. And you will be burned. And without cleanses, you die. And of course, they have setups for everything else that you can likewise practically not avoid.

> > >

> > > And its the same story with just about all condi builds. Active mitigation doesnt help against them because their skills are designed in a way that renders active mitigation useless. And of course, you need to have a lot of cleanses to even stand a chance, because the builds are designed to be viable even against high cleanse builds. So your 2 cleanses will not suffice, and you simply die against any competent condi player, as your active mitigation fails to do *anything*.

> >

> > Against guard it is RNG because you may or may not get a random stolen skill off one in the chamber. It’s rng at best. Not always rng.

> >

>

> Ah, One in the Chamber. Yeah Ive never used that one, so fair enough.

>

> > Again, I beat burn guard. I’ve beaten them repeatedly. And again, good players who know how to play and are appropriately built for small scale roaming.

> >

>

> And I have seen some of the best players fail to beat burn guards because they only had 2 cleanses. So yeah, given my personal experience, and the simple on-paper thing, I am going to doubt what youre saying.

>

> > I don’t know how else I can say it. You are refusing to accept that I’m either telling the truth about winning versus burn guard, or alternatively, that the burn guards I fought were “good enough” to prove the point. You’ve also refused to accept that some cleanse is equivalent to wearing armor against power damage. You can’t compare a burn guard free stacking burn with no cleanse to a zerk build striking, for example, a medium armor target.

> >

>

> I know what Im saying is the truth. You are contradicting it. Ergo I have no reason to assume what youre saying is the truth. And no, cleanse isnt equivalent to wearing armour, Ive already explained, *health* is the equivalent. Toughness is the equivalent to cleanses. You *have* to have 5 or so cleanses to be able to beat a condi build. You dont have to have Toughness at all to beat a power build. And no, I cant, but here is the thing. Until the fifth cleanse, Burn Guard still *rapidly* outpaces the zerk guardian.

>

> > I’ll try to pull up some numbers and arrive at a fair DPS number for burn guard for comparison. And I’ll try to get some comparison numbers for zerk guard. But, again, whatever the numbers are, I’ve experienced being spiked by both burn guard and power guard and burn is not in my experience more damage.

> >

> >

>

> For a single spike, yes, power spikes a bit faster and a bit harder. But after that one spike, Power Guards damage rapidly falls off, while Burn guards damage is consistently high until about 20 seconds in.

 

I’ll try to graph it out when I get a chance. It’s not so simple because obviously we are also talking about pulsing fields which tend to do more damage over time regardless of type (standing in DH traps for example).

 

I know I’m not running a typical thief build. So maybe there is something about mine which makes cleanse less necessary. I’m just saying that I fought a (good) HoD core burn guardian (iD was the guild tag). He might have beaten me once in a 2v2 but every single other fight and multiple 1v1s I won. I enjoyed fighting him actually. Not sure he felt the same.