Would you play a Mesmer Bard?

[Game of Bones.8975]

It may not be called a Bard, but you get the idea.

 

Unlock the war-horn.

 

Use skills to focus on spreading conditions to your enemies; **bleeding** from the eyes/ears, general **confusion**, rage in the form of **torment**, **blinding** from "stage lights," being **immobilized** because the music is so good (or bad), and **taunt** your foe with rimshots when they miss.

 

The clones would fill in the "band" with other instruments to stack and cause synergy between skills.

 

This may be more of an April Fools profession, but not every bard uses a lyre, flute, or poetry.

[SpyderArachnid.5619]

There was this one MMO I played a long time back called Forsaken World, that had a Bard class. I loved the way that played and how it was designed. Always wanted a class like that in other games, so yeah. I'm all up for a Bard class (or elite spec whatever).

 

Though I think instead of Horn, being allowed to use our Musical Instruments as weapons would be better. Like playing the Harp or Lute would feel more bardic to me.

[Randulf.7614]

Probably, yes.

 

Remind me of the Mad Max connection though

[FrostSpectre.4198]

Or call it "Siren". :tongue:

 

No wait, that would be excellent specialization for expansion where we go after Bubbles...

[Hesione.9412]

We used to have a bard in support chrono. Apparently Anet doesn't like bards as support chrono got nerfed to pretty much oblivion.

[Taril.8619]

So Mesmer Bard?

 

A support Mesmer E-Spec? Like Chronomancer you mean?

That deals with Conditions such as Torment and Confusion? Like Mirage you mean?

 

I honestly can't see what it'd bring to the class.

[TwinFrozr.6214]

I have no idea what it is, but if it's fun to play, sure thing.

[Game of Bones.8975]

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> Probably, yes.

>

> Remind me of the Mad Max connection though

 

 

[KidRoleplay.3615]

If it's an espec, I'll play it! I'm rather uncomplicated. It's just more toys to mess with in the end.

[Kodama.6453]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> So Mesmer Bard?

>

> A support Mesmer E-Spec? Like Chronomancer you mean?

> That deals with Conditions such as Torment and Confusion? Like Mirage you mean?

>

> I honestly can't see what it'd bring to the class.

 

A "bard" class doesn't necessarily have to be a support.

It could also play out as a bruiser in this game.

 

Imagine a fairly mobile musician, stunlocking enemies with music and singing, dancing over the battlefield on steady feet (stability).

Could have either shouts (songs) or stances (dancing styles) as utility skills.

[Taril.8619]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > @"Taril.8619" said:

> > So Mesmer Bard?

> >

> > A support Mesmer E-Spec? Like Chronomancer you mean?

> > That deals with Conditions such as Torment and Confusion? Like Mirage you mean?

> >

> > I honestly can't see what it'd bring to the class.

>

> A "bard" class doesn't necessarily have to be a support.

> It could also play out as a bruiser in this game.

>

> Imagine a fairly mobile musician, stunlocking enemies with music and singing, dancing over the battlefield on steady feet (stability).

> Could have either shouts (songs) or stances (dancing styles) as utility skills.

 

Still don't see what it'd add to the class.

 

Bruiser? Chrono is the best tank in the game right now. Beating out all current "Bruiser" E-Specs. So...

 

Not to mention, given the fact that everyone hates Mesmers in PvP and thus they keep getting nerfed, an E-Spec that's focused on gaining Stability and stunlocking enemies would probably end up getting gutted after 0.2 femtoseconds of going live.

 

Meanwhile, I could see Bard for Thief. Given that Thief lacks proper support, giving them Bard and Warhorn for some boonshare would be viable. Steal could end up changing to singing verses of poems at enemies, giving "Stolen Skills" that are Choruses which provide boons for the party.

 

Would be interesting to see how all the Dual Wield skills would turn out too, S/W, D/W, P/W... Could have some neat interactions.

 

 

[Arcaniaxs.4519]

Sure why not

[Kodama.6453]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > > @"Taril.8619" said:

> > > So Mesmer Bard?

> > >

> > > A support Mesmer E-Spec? Like Chronomancer you mean?

> > > That deals with Conditions such as Torment and Confusion? Like Mirage you mean?

> > >

> > > I honestly can't see what it'd bring to the class.

> >

> > A "bard" class doesn't necessarily have to be a support.

> > It could also play out as a bruiser in this game.

> >

> > Imagine a fairly mobile musician, stunlocking enemies with music and singing, dancing over the battlefield on steady feet (stability).

> > Could have either shouts (songs) or stances (dancing styles) as utility skills.

>

> Still don't see what it'd add to the class.

>

> Bruiser? Chrono is the best tank in the game right now. Beating out all current "Bruiser" E-Specs. So...

>

> Not to mention, given the fact that everyone hates Mesmers in PvP and thus they keep getting nerfed, an E-Spec that's focused on gaining Stability and stunlocking enemies would probably end up getting gutted after 0.2 femtoseconds of going live.

>

> Meanwhile, I could see Bard for Thief. Given that Thief lacks proper support, giving them Bard and Warhorn for some boonshare would be viable. Steal could end up changing to singing verses of poems at enemies, giving "Stolen Skills" that are Choruses which provide boons for the party.

>

> Would be interesting to see how all the Dual Wield skills would turn out too, S/W, D/W, P/W... Could have some neat interactions.

>

>

 

Well, mesmers most likely will get an elite spec with the next expansion, same for all the other classes.

 

If you see the chronomancer as"the best tank" for mesmers and also as a support, then mirage as a condition damage spec....

What exactly do you imagine will mesmer get as an elite spec? It has to have _some_ niche. You just say that you don't see how a bard could bring something new to mesmer, but what actually **do** you expect to see for mesmer?

 

And I think the bard theme is more appropriate for mesmer than for thief. They already used some musical themes for mesmer on the trident attacks for under water combat. Art in any form is more a niche for mesmer than for thief.

[DarkEmiLupus.2876]

Instead of another weapon unlocked how about you can play it with your bought instruments.

You unlock a standard simple flute/harp with the e-spec unlock and if you have more instruments you can use them instead of the standard instrument.

[Jimbru.6014]

Right now the mesmer class in general is in need of some serious help. Support chronos have been nerfed to oblivion; DPS chronos are lacking; condi mirages have basically one build with only minor variations; GS still has less damage than it should and that stupid "does more damage farther away" limitation; the list goes on. So yeah, I'd support anything that actually makes mesmers fun to play again.

[Xenash.1245]

Only if I can play a lute and my running animation changes to one with a bit of a skip to it's step.

 

The only way to make fighting a mesmer more annoying is to turn them into a prancing bard.

[AliamRationem.5172]

It seems as good an idea as any and could totally fit as a twist on an illusionist class.

[Taril.8619]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> If you see the chronomancer as"the best tank" for mesmers and also as a support, then mirage as a condition damage spec....

> What exactly do you imagine will mesmer get as an elite spec? It has to have _some_ niche. You just say that you don't see how a bard could bring something new to mesmer, but what actually **do** you expect to see for mesmer?

 

Power damage?

Healing? (It could be a time to split "Support" specs between Healing ones such as Druid/Scourge/Tempest and Boonshare ones such as Firebrand/Renegade/Chrono which could also open up the option for Necro/Ranger to get Boonshare E-Specs and Guardian/Rev to get Healing E-Specs)

 

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> And I think the bard theme is more appropriate for mesmer than for thief. They already used some musical themes for mesmer on the trident attacks for under water combat. Art in any form is more a niche for mesmer than for thief.

 

Bard is traditionally part of the Rogue class.

 

But even then, Mesmer and Thief have a lot of cross over in their themes.

 

- Stealth

- Trickery (Illusions or actual Tricks)

- Dueling (Works thematically for both. If there was an E-Spec that made a single main hand weapon have a full 5 skills to emulate a "Fencer", it could go in either class)

- Theivery (Both can steal boons)

- Elusivity (Shadowsteps and Teleports are a significant thing in both classes, with also both classes having E-Specs focused on dodging a bunch)

 

It's kind of like Mesmer is just Light armour Thief to be honest. As opposed to the more Mage-like depictions we see from NPC Mesmers like Kasmeer or Jennah.

[miraude.2107]

If it's like the Monster Hunter hunting horn style, sure. I'd love that a lot in having to actually think about button presses, etc.

If it's the Rift bard, no, hell no. I went in trying to love that class because omg yay a bard and grew to hate the living hell out of it.

[Kodama.6453]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> Power damage?

 

Power chrono has the highest benchmark of every class against small hitbox targets in the entire game. If your argument is that we can't have a bruiser, because chrono "is the best tank build right now", then mesmer obviously also can't have a power damage elite spec, since chrono also is the best power elite spec currently.

 

> Healing? (It could be a time to split "Support" specs between Healing ones such as Druid/Scourge/Tempest and Boonshare ones such as Firebrand/Renegade/Chrono which could also open up the option for Necro/Ranger to get Boonshare E-Specs and Guardian/Rev to get Healing E-Specs)

 

Fair enough, but this role could also get fulfilled by a bard archetype. Nowhere is the rule written that a bard has to be a boonshare support.

And small detail about firebrand: that elite spec doubles as both, boonshare support and healing support. Their tome of resolve is completely dedicated to healing and it seems that they can be quite effective at it, so guardian doesn't need another healing e-spec.

 

> Bard is traditionally part of the Rogue class.

>

> But even then, Mesmer and Thief have a lot of cross over in their themes.

>

> - Stealth

> - Trickery (Illusions or actual Tricks)

> - Dueling (Works thematically for both. If there was an E-Spec that made a single main hand weapon have a full 5 skills to emulate a "Fencer", it could go in either class)

> - Theivery (Both can steal boons)

> - Elusivity (Shadowsteps and Teleports are a significant thing in both classes, with also both classes having E-Specs focused on dodging a bunch)

>

> It's kind of like Mesmer is just Light armour Thief to be honest. As opposed to the more Mage-like depictions we see from NPC Mesmers like Kasmeer or Jennah.

 

While it is true that there is some overlap between them, I think both are really different when it comes to their thematics. While thief usually has a darker theme and wants to stay hidden (in the shadows), mesmer is brighter and actually wants to be seen. Mesmer is all about delivering a big show for the audience with the illusions, the butterfly shattering....

 

Mesmers want to be seen, then trick your mind with phantoms. Thieves don't want to be seen in the first place.

And a bard belongs more in the first category, they want an audience, want to be heard and seen. Then the bard might use their music and dancing to manipulate you.

 

 

[Taril.8619]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > @"Taril.8619" said:

> > Power damage?

>

> Power chrono has the highest benchmark of every class against small hitbox targets in the entire game. If your argument is that we can't have a bruiser, because chrono "is the best tank build right now", then mesmer obviously also can't have a power damage elite spec, since chrono also is the best power elite spec currently.

 

If you actually look at individual bosses though, rather than golem benchmarks, then Power Chrono is only number 1 on exactly 2 bosses, Xera and Sabir.

 

Every other boss where Power builds are used, is heavily dominated by Power DH with exception of Qadim in which DD shines (Also is literally the only time DD is actually useful in PvE) with many of these bosses having Power Chrono not even make it to the top 3 for benchmarks.

 

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> Fair enough, but this role could also get fulfilled by a bard archetype. Nowhere is the rule written that a bard has to be a boonshare support.

 

It could. But no-one has suggested such.

 

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> While it is true that there is some overlap between them, I think both are really different when it comes to their thematics. While thief usually has a darker theme and wants to stay hidden (in the shadows), mesmer is brighter and actually wants to be seen. Mesmer is all about delivering a big show for the audience with the illusions, the butterfly shattering....

>

> Mesmers want to be seen, then trick your mind with phantoms. Thieves don't want to be seen in the first place.

> And a bard belongs more in the first category, they want an audience, want to be heard and seen. Then the bard might use their music and dancing to manipulate you.

 

Thieves deal mostly with slight of hand, rather than outright stealth. Which revolves around having people focus on where you want them to. (It's also the basis for Magicians. You use theatrics to make people focus in the wrong place so you can manipulate things to deceive them)

 

It's exactly the same theme as is used by Mesmer with its Clones, trying to get people to focus on the illusion rather than them, which was doubled down on with Mirage and its abilities that makes the character and their illusions teleport to random positions.

 

As such, Bard isn't a far cry from Thief (Even if you ignore the fact that gameplay-wise, Thieves don't spend much time in stealth these days what with many nerfs to stealth duration over the years... Instead they focus on shooting people in the face with pistols and rifles or jumping at people with a knife...)

 

Also, Anise, Jennah and half of the story would like to disagree with you about Mesmer wanting an audience. Anise doing a lot of sneaking around to uncover plots and treason, Jennah hiding her powers as a Mesmer from the world (Until pushed into it where she unleashes her power and wrecks face) and the plethora of times Mesmer illusions have been used to stealth through places or don disguises (From the top of my head, Order of Whispers mission to sneak Demmi Beetlestone out of LA could be done via stealthing the PC and knocking out guards or giving Tybalt the illusion of Demmi and some "Lovely Apples", LW3 Lake Doric has the heart and story mission to disguise as a White Mantle and go ruin their base, Balthazar uses the enchanted mirror to disguise himself as Lazarus, PoF has the impersonation of whatshisface from the Mordant Crescent)

 

So as I said, there's plenty of crossover with Mesmer and Thief. They pretty much focus on the same core themes. (Probably also why they're the 2 most hated classes in PvP, because they're both annoying to fight for the same reasons)

 

[Kodama.6453]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> If you actually look at individual bosses though, rather than golem benchmarks, then Power Chrono is only number 1 on exactly 2 bosses, Xera and Sabir.

 

How is being number 1 at bosses relevant here? You used the argument that heal scrapper is a used build for engineer to dismiss my suggestion for a support engineer e-spec, healing scrapper is not number 1 support at **any** boss out there, at best it is an ok-ish secondary support and **needs** to get put alongside a druid to actually work for raids.

 

That power chrono is number 1 power spec against some bosses is already a feat. So please, make up your mind. You can't use that argument and tell me "another power e-spec for mesmer would be fine", but on the other hand tell me "another support e-spec for engineer makes no sense".

 

> Thieves deal mostly with slight of hand, rather than outright stealth. Which revolves around having people focus on where you want them to. (It's also the basis for Magicians. You use theatrics to make people focus in the wrong place so you can manipulate things to deceive them)

 

Can you show me any example of thieves wanting to distract you in some way to use "sleight of hand" tricks? They have stealing effects, but these don't really suggest that they are distracting you in some way to steal from you. You can also steal from somebody by being completely unseen by them in the first place, no distraction required at all.

 

And using disguises to sneak around actually proof my point for mesmer. If you use a disguise, you **are** seen, just not as who you really are. Disguises have an "audience", they are seen, that's why they are disguises. But mesmers use their illusionary powers to trick your mind and let you see someone else than they truly are.

 

If a bard-like e-spec finds into the game, I have no doubt that it will be a mesmer spec. Elite specs are also used to enhance core thematics of the classes. Thief doesn't have any relation to music at all. Meanwhile mesmer does, as I mentioned, there is a musical theme on their trident. Giving a music focused e-spec to the class which has no connection to music at all doesn't make sense if you have a class that actually does.

[Taril.8619]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> How is being number 1 at bosses relevant here?

 

You brought up Chrono being number 1 on benchmarks.

 

 

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> You used the argument that heal scrapper is a used build for engineer to dismiss my suggestion for a support engineer e-spec, healing scrapper is not number 1 support at **any** boss out there, at best it is an ok-ish secondary support and **needs** to get put alongside a druid to actually work for raids.

 

I used the argument that Scrapper is Bruiser/Support (But mostly used as Support) to dismiss the suggestion for a Condi/Support Engineer E-Spec.

 

If you were suggesting a full on Support E-Spec for Engie, I would not have brought it up (Though I would have stated that I'd prefer to see a Condi E-Spec before a full Support E-Spec for Engie, given that Alch/Invention/Scrapper is 3 specs that provide support while Condi Engie has **ONLY** Firearms)

 

I had to bring up Heal Scrapper, because you were adamant that Scrapper isn't used as Support. When it is literally the best support class in WvW and is on par with Scourge in PvE (Who also **needs** to get put alongside a druid to actually work for raids)

 

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> Can you show me any example of thieves wanting to distract you in some way to use "sleight of hand" tricks? They have stealing effects, but these don't really suggest that they are distracting you in some way to steal from you. You can also steal from somebody by being completely unseen by them in the first place, no distraction required at all.

 

Steal. You know, the no-stealth requirement, letmejumponyourface steal. (Which if using real world pickpocketing as an example, would be sleight of hand via bumping into them while walking to distract them from you putting your hand in their pocket)

S/D dual wield attack.

P/D dual wield attack.

Sword 2.

Shadowstep.

Preparations.

 

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> And using disguises to sneak around actually proof my point for mesmer. If you use a disguise, you **are** seen, just not as who you really are. Disguises have an "audience", they are seen, that's why they are disguises. But mesmers use their illusionary powers to trick your mind and let you see someone else than they truly are.

 

Disguises literally by definition hide you. By concealing your identity.

 

It's the exactly the same principle used by the Order of Whispers and Order of Shadows, where many of their members use disguises to hide in plain sight, so they can provide support and gather intel without being discovered.

 

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> If a bard-like e-spec finds into the game, I have no doubt that it will be a mesmer spec. Elite specs are also used to enhance core thematics of the classes. Thief doesn't have any relation to music at all. Meanwhile mesmer does, as I mentioned, there is a musical theme on their trident. Giving a music focused e-spec to the class which has no connection to music at all doesn't make sense if you have a class that actually does.

 

Yes, Mesmer has an skill that has music notes on it. That's not really a "Musical theme" especially when you read the skill and note that it is just sonic energy, not music, not a song in of itself, but sonic energy (I.e. Literally the same thing that Dredge use with their sonic weaponry)

 

This doesn't necessarily make Mesmer a musical based class with an affinity for music any more than saying they're a nature based class because their shatters turn into butterflies.

 

As such, a Bard E-Spec is still open to classes that it would fit. Which would be:

 

- Classes that currently cannot use Warhorn (As it's the most logical E-Spec weapon for a Bard), so Guardian/Thief/Engie/Mesmer/Rev

- Classes that can utilize a "Bard" themed spec (Which is typically buffs/heals especially with Warhorn as WH typically provides boons), so Thief/Engie

- Classes that fit with a "Bard" theme (Which is typically Rogue-ish using charm and magical words/songs), so Thief/Mesmer/Rev

 

Meaning that from where I stand, Thief is the most likely class to get it. They could use a support E-Spec (Unlike Mesmer). They could utilize a Warhorn (Which typically brings boons for allies). They still fall into a category that makes sense being a Bard.

 

Of course, ANet could go out there and give Rev a Bard legend to troll everyone. Invoke a Legendary Skald to sing tales about the other Legends they can invoke!

[Senqu.8054]

As I already mentioned, the idea of another support class for Mesmer is not my favorite. Chrono is a very unique way to give Mesmer something like that, destroying it to create the need for another support class is in my opinion not very productive. What will be the purpose of a Chrono after that since he was supposed to be a group support? It’s like giving ranger another healing/support e-spec because they are not able to balance Druid.

[Kodama.6453]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> You brought up Chrono being number 1 on benchmarks.

 

Then it seems this is a misunderstanding. I didn't mention it because it actually matters, but because it showcases a point I was trying to make: chronomancer is already used with great success as a power spec.

And by the arguments you presented in the past, if there already is an e-spec that has great success at that role, then there is no need for another. Chrono works well as a power spec, so mesmer doesn't need another power damage spec.

 

> I used the argument that Scrapper is Bruiser/Support (But mostly used as Support) to dismiss the suggestion for a Condi/Support Engineer E-Spec.

>

> If you were suggesting a full on Support E-Spec for Engie, I would not have brought it up (Though I would have stated that I'd prefer to see a Condi E-Spec before a full Support E-Spec for Engie, given that Alch/Invention/Scrapper is 3 specs that provide support while Condi Engie has **ONLY** Firearms)

 

I get the feeling that our whole discussion is based on one thing we view differently.

You have to consider that **every** elite spec, no matter if tank, damage dealer, support, or whatever, always will be associated with at least one of the two damage forms (conditions or power).

 

Because by the very nature of this game, all specs will deal some kind of damage, just like everyone will also heal since we all have a healing skill.

The support specs Anet has introduced so far also showcase this.

Firebrand - support based on condition damage

Scourge - support based on condition damage

Druid - support and used in condition builds (can't really say for sure if we can call it _based_ on condition damage, but it has traits which make it used for condi builds at least)

 

Other example: What I tend to call the "bruiser" specs. One big aspect of these e-specs is their focus on defensive mechanics and CC, but they also all are associated with some form of damage (mostly power).

Scrapper - bruiser based on power damage

Daredevil - bruiser based on power damage

Spellbreaker - bruiser based on power damage

 

> I had to bring up Heal Scrapper, because you were adamant that Scrapper isn't used as Support. When it is literally the best support class in WvW and is on par with Scourge in PvE (Who also **needs** to get put alongside a druid to actually work for raids)

 

I never denied that scrapper is **used** as support. My point in the discussions before has always been that scrapper is not **designed** as support. Scrapper is used in support builds because it's utilities are the best we can fit in the third slot, even if scrapper as a trait line doesn't bring much support to the table.

What I am asking for is a spec that is properly designed as a support, while also enhancing engineer's capabilities to deal condition damage. They have already done it with other support specs like firebrand and scourge, so this is nothing unheard of.

 

> Disguises literally by definition hide you. By concealing your identity.

 

Yes, concealing your identity. And for a disguise to actually work as a disguise, you need to be seen, can we agree on that? Because if you are not actually seen, then a disguise is meaningless. If you are unseen in the first place, then there is no need to conceal your identity. Which is my point, disguises have an audience, this is a mesmer thing.

 

> Yes, Mesmer has an skill that has music notes on it. That's not really a "Musical theme" especially when you read the skill and note that it is just sonic energy, not music, not a song in of itself, but sonic energy (I.e. Literally the same thing that Dredge use with their sonic weaponry)

 

The skill icon literally has music notes on it and you acknowledge it. How can something that even directly references music in pictures not have a musical theme?

I would have never imagined that someone argues that literal music notes are not "musical theme", that makes absolutely no sense.