Make mesmer viable.

[Moradorin.6217]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> All this buff Mesmer - nerf Mesmer comments miss the real issues with Mesmer balance tbh, and it somehow triggers me enough to jump in again.

>

> The question about Mesmer balance it not mainly about how weak or strong it is, i neither think Mesmer (all specs) need that many buffs. The stupidity and nonsensenes about Mesmer balance it the destruction/ contradiction of basic mechanics (Mesmers in general or elite mechanics in particular), making the elites clunky and deleted tons of skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanical complexity. If anything will work, then a build on Mirage or Chrono, will for sure not be the high skill ceiling, healthy for the game and fair builds, like power (aside from nonreactive oneshots ofc), for Chrono if anything will work than it will be the balance issue overloaded and easy to play and unfair stuff like Bunkerchrono, phantams spam Chrono or Condichrono, for Mirage it only will be Condimirage. Means exactly the builds the nerfs and trade offs were directed to, survived the most of this mess. It just makes no sense. I also personally think Mesmer is the most balanced when its meta is rotation/ roaming orientated, Mesmer should literally have no viable side node build. It cannot be balanced ever with Mesmers basic mechanics. Mesmer in core GW2 was pure roaming pain train with some team utility. It was the highest skill ceiling/ floor and most balanced state Mesmer was ever in.

>

> **Means: Giving Mirage 2 dodges back and giving Chrono Distortion and IP back has to come with nerfs or reworks finally at the correct positions instead.**

>

> For Chrono the trade off can be simple stat penalty because when it needs to give up sustain and dmg compared to core, to have lower cds on utility effects (like double elite or double boon remove on utility phantams) than it is a trade off makes sense, defines Chrono more as a support and utility spec and does not contradict class or elite mechanics. Also you could just exclude elites from CS reset.

>

> Mirage needs 2 dodges back and should get reworked condi ambushes instead. Power ambushes also might need to lose some power then, to not be op compared to post patch nerfed power lvl of other classes (like some little dmg reduction on gs ambush from the Mirage itself, little nerfs on vulnerability and might stacks, no clone generation on sword ambush from the Mirage itself, just as examples). It would also make balancing ambushes from Mesmer and clones easier if IH becomes a minor trait (makes sense also because without IH played, Mirage is just a core on steroids, in fact ambushes and IH brings the most skill ceiling to the spec and differs the gameplay style from core the most, as long as ambushes are correct designed, just like on power weapons).

>

> The dodge duration for Mirage is not the issue, that is nonsense, as mentioned already from others, even with 2 dodges Mirage got outdodged by most other classes already. Other classes just have the same or higher amount of addittional dodges and other dmg mitigation skills on weapon and utility skills, other classes even still have passive traits for invuln (Warrior for example) or dodges (Thief for example).

>

> The real problem was, that Condimirage had that much passive clone condi dmg (clone ambushes but also normal clone autoattacks) that they could spec into Chaos or Inspiration and still do high condi dmg while also having insane sustain from low skill ceiling traitlines with insane synergy between Mirage and the passive boonfest in Chaos or invulnspam/ambushspam in Inspiration. All these problems will be solved in the same way we have it now ,when just condi ambushes will be reworked and have utility/effects and not high condi dmg spam as main purpose. It also will give Condimirage the needed opportunity costs in dodgemanagement you do not have on pure condispam ambushes, not forcing Mirages into offensive dodges at all and for that also make the ability to dodge while being stunned insanely op then (this all is no issue on Powermirage simply because of the better designed power ambushes from Mesmer itself and from clones).

>

> Or you relink the ambush/ IH mechanic from dodges and put it into a Mirage specific f5 button, give it an ammo skill with the same cd of a 2 dodge Mirage, so that the Mirage actually can time the ambushes for the purposes of the ambush as active and tactical skill to outplay opponents and not just as a passive side effect from pure defensive dodging. Means f5 enables the ambush window, then the Mesmer needs to press autoattack during ambush window to ambush (so that the Mirage can still decide to ambush himself or not), while clones with IH do the ambush on f5 use automatically. That way ambushes/ IH are 100% active now (not linked to dodges anymore, not doomed to be a passive side effect when only dodging pure defensive) and not only 80% active like on power or 90% passive like on condi.

>

> It rly is that simple but Anet prefers to dumb down high skill ceiling builds/mechanics, make them clunky and even more unviable than before already, while not even fixing the real issues Mirage/ Chrono had on the old meta builds which alone caused the balance issues (even mostly because of low skill ceiling defensive core traitlines).

>

> Meanwhile ofc nonreactive and low counterplay Mantra of Pain spam, stealthspam PU oneshot should not exist either, MoP should become a more defensive skill, like a boon remove Mantra. With that there is also no need for the "face your target" requirement on any Mantra anymore. MoD is balanced as it is now and don't need this clunky restriction. Reworks for PU i made several times already i will not repeat. Also the stun on f3 should not come back, just as old CI and old Lost Time should not come back no matter what. Mesmer has an instant, max range interrupt tool with MoD (what needs to be that way to enable skillful on purpose interrupt gameplay) but that comes with the trade off that Mesmer is not allowed to have too strong interrupt traits and even weaker "proc on cc spam only" traits. Powerblock is a good example for a balanced and high skill ceiling cc trait for Mesmers having access to something like MoD.

>

> All this ofc needs to happen while current braindead bunker and low effort hard cc spam meta builds from other classes get further adjustments. But there are general basic issues in GW2 no class balance alone can solve:

>

> Core defensive traitlines still have too low opportunity costs in dmg on most classes, they are still too passive or too low skill ceiling/floor designed and cause the most balance issues, allowing mistake friendly facetank gameplay, it is not even the elites causing the main issues in this game. The whole trade off agenda is still an inconsistent nonsense mess, i don't want it to come to other elites and it should be reworked or reverted on the elites already got such nonsense trade off and should be replaced with normal nerfs instead. Normal nerfs at right places which do not contradict and delete mechanics and finally solve the real balance issues. Condis are still wrong designed by their basics. High risk-high skill requirement builds have still lower reward in GW2 than low risk-low skill requirement (that is not a Mesmer only issue, it is a gamewide issue, even tho Mesmer as a class with one of the strongest basic mechanics needs to have higher skill requirement to be balanced, that is why Inspiration and Chaos in current state will always be problematic).

>

> There are simple balance basics being wrong in this game, cannot be fixed by class adjustments and number nerfs alone anyway. And the first step is, that Devs do not listen to biased players trying to mess up balance/ meta into their favor and are unpunished for acc sharing, title selling, wintrading etc. and that Devs get some more class knowledge and starting to use brain and logic instead. Also find the courage to admit, that most of the trade off agenda (not only for Mesmer) was purely executed, inconsistent among elites and need fix.

 

BAsically, without reading every detail, Im going to agree cause I said similar just now. LoL

[bravan.3876]

> @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > All this buff Mesmer - nerf Mesmer comments miss the real issues with Mesmer balance tbh, and it somehow triggers me enough to jump in again.

> >

> > The question about Mesmer balance it not mainly about how weak or strong it is, i neither think Mesmer (all specs) need that many buffs. The stupidity and nonsensenes about Mesmer balance it the destruction/ contradiction of basic mechanics (Mesmers in general or elite mechanics in particular), making the elites clunky and deleted tons of skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanical complexity. If anything will work, then a build on Mirage or Chrono, will for sure not be the high skill ceiling, healthy for the game and fair builds, like power (aside from nonreactive oneshots ofc), for Chrono if anything will work than it will be the balance issue overloaded and easy to play and unfair stuff like Bunkerchrono, phantams spam Chrono or Condichrono, for Mirage it only will be Condimirage. Means exactly the builds the nerfs and trade offs were directed to, survived the most of this mess. It just makes no sense. I also personally think Mesmer is the most balanced when its meta is rotation/ roaming orientated, Mesmer should literally have no viable side node build. It cannot be balanced ever with Mesmers basic mechanics. Mesmer in core GW2 was pure roaming pain train with some team utility. It was the highest skill ceiling/ floor and most balanced state Mesmer was ever in.

> >

> > **Means: Giving Mirage 2 dodges back and giving Chrono Distortion and IP back has to come with nerfs or reworks finally at the correct positions instead.**

> >

> > For Chrono the trade off can be simple stat penalty because when it needs to give up sustain and dmg compared to core, to have lower cds on utility effects (like double elite or double boon remove on utility phantams) than it is a trade off makes sense, defines Chrono more as a support and utility spec and does not contradict class or elite mechanics. Also you could just exclude elites from CS reset.

> >

> > Mirage needs 2 dodges back and should get reworked condi ambushes instead. Power ambushes also might need to lose some power then, to not be op compared to post patch nerfed power lvl of other classes (like some little dmg reduction on gs ambush from the Mirage itself, little nerfs on vulnerability and might stacks, no clone generation on sword ambush from the Mirage itself, just as examples). It would also make balancing ambushes from Mesmer and clones easier if IH becomes a minor trait (makes sense also because without IH played, Mirage is just a core on steroids, in fact ambushes and IH brings the most skill ceiling to the spec and differs the gameplay style from core the most, as long as ambushes are correct designed, just like on power weapons).

> >

> > The dodge duration for Mirage is not the issue, that is nonsense, as mentioned already from others, even with 2 dodges Mirage got outdodged by most other classes already. Other classes just have the same or higher amount of addittional dodges and other dmg mitigation skills on weapon and utility skills, other classes even still have passive traits for invuln (Warrior for example) or dodges (Thief for example).

> >

> > The real problem was, that Condimirage had that much passive clone condi dmg (clone ambushes but also normal clone autoattacks) that they could spec into Chaos or Inspiration and still do high condi dmg while also having insane sustain from low skill ceiling traitlines with insane synergy between Mirage and the passive boonfest in Chaos or invulnspam/ambushspam in Inspiration. All these problems will be solved in the same way we have it now ,when just condi ambushes will be reworked and have utility/effects and not high condi dmg spam as main purpose. It also will give Condimirage the needed opportunity costs in dodgemanagement you do not have on pure condispam ambushes, not forcing Mirages into offensive dodges at all and for that also make the ability to dodge while being stunned insanely op then (this all is no issue on Powermirage simply because of the better designed power ambushes from Mesmer itself and from clones).

> >

> > Or you relink the ambush/ IH mechanic from dodges and put it into a Mirage specific f5 button, give it an ammo skill with the same cd of a 2 dodge Mirage, so that the Mirage actually can time the ambushes for the purposes of the ambush as active and tactical skill to outplay opponents and not just as a passive side effect from pure defensive dodging. Means f5 enables the ambush window, then the Mesmer needs to press autoattack during ambush window to ambush (so that the Mirage can still decide to ambush himself or not), while clones with IH do the ambush on f5 use automatically. That way ambushes/ IH are 100% active now (not linked to dodges anymore, not doomed to be a passive side effect when only dodging pure defensive) and not only 80% active like on power or 90% passive like on condi.

> >

> > It rly is that simple but Anet prefers to dumb down high skill ceiling builds/mechanics, make them clunky and even more unviable than before already, while not even fixing the real issues Mirage/ Chrono had on the old meta builds which alone caused the balance issues (even mostly because of low skill ceiling defensive core traitlines).

> >

> > Meanwhile ofc nonreactive and low counterplay Mantra of Pain spam, stealthspam PU oneshot should not exist either, MoP should become a more defensive skill, like a boon remove Mantra. With that there is also no need for the "face your target" requirement on any Mantra anymore. MoD is balanced as it is now and don't need this clunky restriction. Reworks for PU i made several times already i will not repeat. Also the stun on f3 should not come back, just as old CI and old Lost Time should not come back no matter what. Mesmer has an instant, max range interrupt tool with MoD (what needs to be that way to enable skillful on purpose interrupt gameplay) but that comes with the trade off that Mesmer is not allowed to have too strong interrupt traits and even weaker "proc on cc spam only" traits. Powerblock is a good example for a balanced and high skill ceiling cc trait for Mesmers having access to something like MoD.

> >

> > All this ofc needs to happen while current braindead bunker and low effort hard cc spam meta builds from other classes get further adjustments. But there are general basic issues in GW2 no class balance alone can solve:

> >

> > Core defensive traitlines still have too low opportunity costs in dmg on most classes, they are still too passive or too low skill ceiling/floor designed and cause the most balance issues, allowing mistake friendly facetank gameplay, it is not even the elites causing the main issues in this game. The whole trade off agenda is still an inconsistent nonsense mess, i don't want it to come to other elites and it should be reworked or reverted on the elites already got such nonsense trade off and should be replaced with normal nerfs instead. Normal nerfs at right places which do not contradict and delete mechanics and finally solve the real balance issues. Condis are still wrong designed by their basics. High risk-high skill requirement builds have still lower reward in GW2 than low risk-low skill requirement (that is not a Mesmer only issue, it is a gamewide issue, even tho Mesmer as a class with one of the strongest basic mechanics needs to have higher skill requirement to be balanced, that is why Inspiration and Chaos in current state will always be problematic).

> >

> > There are simple balance basics being wrong in this game, cannot be fixed by class adjustments and number nerfs alone anyway. And the first step is, that Devs do not listen to biased players trying to mess up balance/ meta into their favor and are unpunished for acc sharing, title selling, wintrading etc. and that Devs get some more class knowledge and starting to use brain and logic instead. Also find the courage to admit, that most of the trade off agenda (not only for Mesmer) was purely executed, inconsistent among elites and need fix.

>

> BAsically, without reading every detail, Im going to agree cause I said similar just now. LoL

 

I made some more balance suggestions for Chrono and Mirage but yes more or less the same but ofc you used 300 sentences less :joy:

[Aktium.9506]

Keep Mesmer removed ?

[viquing.8254]

Ambushes should not be tied to evade looking at how it encapsulate mirage to maximising endurance (and anet to nerf vigor and evade.).

Maybe each phatasm spawn fill a bar who can be activated to ambush when a certain amount is completed with a F5 button. Or by amno system like @"bravan.3876" explained.

And clones shouldn't apply condition as it create too much disparities between condi and power versions.. (whoses damage can then come back to mesmer skills.).

 

@"bravan.3876" :

Mesmer core was the best duellist by far and had most build banned in duel/tournament back in time. Only left the "shatter burst" which was only 30% of possiblities.

The only reason it wasn't highly represented in competitive is because of stealth sustain for some of their temporisation and the lack of in point staying.

[bravan.3876]

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> Ambushes should not be tied to evade looking at how it encapsulate mirage to maximising endurance (and anet to nerf vigor and evade.).

> Maybe each phatasm spawn fill a bar who can be activated to ambush when a certain amount is completed with a F5 button. Or by amno system like @"bravan.3876" explained.

> And clones shouldn't apply condition as it create too much disparities between condi and power versions.. (whoses damage can then come back to mesmer skills.).

>

> @"bravan.3876" :

> Mesmer core was the best duellist by far and had most build banned in duel/tournament back in time. Only left the "shatter burst" which was only 30% of possiblities.

> The only reason it was highly represented in competitive is because of stealth sustain for some of their temporisation and the lack of in point staying.

 

Core meta in conquest was Domination Duelling Illusion (if it was called like that back then, i do not remember actually) power shatter, for sure no points spend in Inspiration or Chaos and no condi, played with Moa, Illusion of Life, Portal and Blink. Means not 3, not even 2 but only 1 duel utility. Instead elite and 2 utilities tied to teamsupport, needed teamcoordination to be useful, on a roaming class pain training together with the Thief, what also hold it viable even though it always was countered by Thief, but the pain train could peel for each other. Neither stealthspam abuse nor MoP spam was used back then in Mesmer builds and the coorinated burst with the Thief was needed for a fast kill. Most healthy Mesmer conquest meta ever, maybe aside from current interrupt Powermirage without broken traits like old CI or old CS giving stun/ immob instant , max range on MoD.

 

Btw outsourcing the ambush window activation from dodge button to a Mirage specific f5 button was on of my suggestions.

[viquing.8254]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > Ambushes should not be tied to evade looking at how it encapsulate mirage to maximising endurance (and anet to nerf vigor and evade.).

> > Maybe each phatasm spawn fill a bar who can be activated to ambush when a certain amount is completed with a F5 button. Or by amno system like @"bravan.3876" explained.

> > And clones shouldn't apply condition as it create too much disparities between condi and power versions.. (whoses damage can then come back to mesmer skills.).

> >

> > @"bravan.3876" :

> > Mesmer core was the best duellist by far and had most build banned in duel/tournament back in time. Only left the "shatter burst" which was only 30% of possiblities.

> > The only reason it was highly represented in competitive is because of stealth sustain for some of their temporisation and the lack of in point staying.

>

> Core meta in conquest was Domination Duelling Illusion (if it was called like that back then, i do not remember actually) power shatter, for sure no points spend in Inspiration or Chaos and no condi, played with Moa, Illusion of Life, Portal and blink. Means not 3, not even 2 but only 1 duel utility. Instead elite and 2 utilities tied to teamsupport on a roaming class pain training together with the Thief, what also hold it viable even though it always was countered by Thief, but the pain train could peel for each other. Neither stealthspam abuse nor MoP spam was used back then. Most healthy Mesmer conquest meta ever, maybe aside from current interrupt Powermirage without broken traits like old CI or old CS giving stun/ immob instant , max range on MoD.

Don't think there was only the monobuild you see in tournament (who needed a hudge team assist to work btw.), I was a full WvW players during this time and there were plethora of builds who made mesmer way behind other class when talking about duelling, from phantasms to blackwater passing by some hybrid other variants or mantra based on the 600 toughness on cast. IP builds were just the top of the iceberg.

> Btw outsourcing the ambush window activation from dodge button to a Mirage specific f5 button was on of my suggestions.

Nice to see we agree on something.

 

[bravan.3876]

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > > Ambushes should not be tied to evade looking at how it encapsulate mirage to maximising endurance (and anet to nerf vigor and evade.).

> > > Maybe each phatasm spawn fill a bar who can be activated to ambush when a certain amount is completed with a F5 button. Or by amno system like @"bravan.3876" explained.

> > > And clones shouldn't apply condition as it create too much disparities between condi and power versions.. (whoses damage can then come back to mesmer skills.).

> > >

> > > @"bravan.3876" :

> > > Mesmer core was the best duellist by far and had most build banned in duel/tournament back in time. Only left the "shatter burst" which was only 30% of possiblities.

> > > The only reason it was highly represented in competitive is because of stealth sustain for some of their temporisation and the lack of in point staying.

> >

> > Core meta in conquest was Domination Duelling Illusion (if it was called like that back then, i do not remember actually) power shatter, for sure no points spend in Inspiration or Chaos and no condi, played with Moa, Illusion of Life, Portal and blink. Means not 3, not even 2 but only 1 duel utility. Instead elite and 2 utilities tied to teamsupport on a roaming class pain training together with the Thief, what also hold it viable even though it always was countered by Thief, but the pain train could peel for each other. Neither stealthspam abuse nor MoP spam was used back then. Most healthy Mesmer conquest meta ever, maybe aside from current interrupt Powermirage without broken traits like old CI or old CS giving stun/ immob instant , max range on MoD.

> Don't think there was only the monobuild you see in tournament who needed a hudge team assist, I was a full WvW players during this time and there was plethora of builds who made mesmer way behind other class when talking about duelling, from phantasms to blackwater passing by some other variants. IP builds were just the top of the iceberg.

> > Btw outsourcing the ambush window activation from dodge button to a Mirage specific f5 button was on of my suggestions.

> Nice to see we agree on something.

>

 

I am not talking about WvW. WvW always was an unbalanced mess and ofc cancer like PU stealthspam or Inspiration Mantra spam, Phantamsspam and go afk lets Ai win for you duelling builds were used there. Op stats, op sigills, op everything, WvW literally doesn't count for any balance discussion. Only PvE balance in GvG arenas is worse. I am talking about conquest meta balance and i think the most healthy for Mesmer is an offensive roaming build with offensive or rotational teamsupport, if it is condi (suboptimal because of the wrong design of condis gamewide and the op normal clone autoattack condi dmg application) or power.

Pushing Mesmer into a conquest duel side node role will never be balanced in my view. The tools it needs in addition to its basic mechanics (which are one of the strongest in the game, with the highest active outplay potential) to be a good duelist also surviving +1s well, will always make it op. It literally needs to trait into Chaos or Inspiration which are, in my view and for the already mentioned reasons, in current state still highly problematic. Mesmer needs to be balanced in a way that the most viable/useful conquest meta is high skill ceiling, otherwise Mesmer is broken. And the best way in my opinion is to balance Mesmer in a way that a roaming/ offensive teamsupport build is the most useful in conquest and for that meta, even though Mesmer has easier builds available. Not the monkey side node role.

[otto.5684]

This message is brought to you by silver struggles:

 

“One dodge is one too many. I fought a Mesmer the other day and they had 3 identical friends. What the fuck was that. So fucking ridiculous.“

 

I could make suggestions for Mesmer to be viable, but the entity of sPvP is currently not viable. Does it matter?

 

 

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> Ambushes should not be tied to evade looking at how it encapsulate mirage to maximising endurance (and anet to nerf vigor and evade.).

> Maybe each phatasm spawn fill a bar who can be activated to ambush when a certain amount is completed with a F5 button. Or by amno system like @"bravan.3876" explained.

> And clones shouldn't apply condition as it create too much disparities between condi and power versions.. (whoses damage can then come back to mesmer skills.).

>

> @"bravan.3876" :

> Mesmer core was the best duellist by far and had most build banned in duel/tournament back in time. Only left the "shatter burst" which was only 30% of possiblities.

> The only reason it wasn't highly represented in competitive is because of stealth sustain for some of their temporisation and the lack of in point staying.

 

Clones shouldn't apply conditions but that's more to prohibit turret style gameplay than condition mesmer have a damage advantage over power.

 

These are premega balance numbers but with the auto attacks on deadshot and berserker amulets mesmer dps looked like this;

 

> Condition Mirage Axe: 1492

> Condition Mirage Staff No Clones with bounces: 846 (For bounced to occur and for the mesmer to get the 2x hit bonus assume 400 range or less. Safe to assume ~425 without bounces)

> Condition Mirage Staff 3 Clones no mesmer with bounces: 1202

> Condition Mirage Staff 3 Clones with bounces: 1814 (I'm not sure how, but despite the mesmer doing about 800 dps and the clones doing about 1200 dps, which logically assumes the total should be 2000 dps, 200 dps goes missing some how)

> Condition Mirage Scepter no clones : 675

> Condition Mirage Scepter 3 clones: 984

> Condition Mirage Scepter Clones Only: 498

> Power Mesmer Max Range Greatsword Berserker's Amulet: 2170

 

This numbers are outdated, pre-megabalance and all. But the principal is true in that generally speaking mesmer condition weapons are actually rather undertuned, especially axe considering it's a melee weapon and they rely on clones supplementing their damage to get even decent dps numbers. Even with the difference between Deadshot and Wanderer, the only weapon that got close to Greatsword's auto attack was staff and that's when it's within 400 range.

[bravan.3876]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > Ambushes should not be tied to evade looking at how it encapsulate mirage to maximising endurance (and anet to nerf vigor and evade.).

> > Maybe each phatasm spawn fill a bar who can be activated to ambush when a certain amount is completed with a F5 button. Or by amno system like @"bravan.3876" explained.

> > And clones shouldn't apply condition as it create too much disparities between condi and power versions.. (whoses damage can then come back to mesmer skills.).

> >

> > @"bravan.3876" :

> > Mesmer core was the best duellist by far and had most build banned in duel/tournament back in time. Only left the "shatter burst" which was only 30% of possiblities.

> > The only reason it wasn't highly represented in competitive is because of stealth sustain for some of their temporisation and the lack of in point staying.

>

> Clones shouldn't apply conditions but that's more to prohibit turret style gameplay than condition mesmer have a damage advantage over power.

>

> These are premega balance numbers but with the auto attacks on deadshot and berserker amulets mesmer dps looked like this;

>

> > Condition Mirage Axe: 1492

> > Condition Mirage Staff No Clones with bounces: 846 (For bounced to occur and for the mesmer to get the 2x hit bonus assume 400 range or less. Safe to assume ~425 without bounces)

> > Condition Mirage Staff 3 Clones no mesmer with bounces: 1202

> > Condition Mirage Staff 3 Clones with bounces: 1814 (I'm not sure how, but despite the mesmer doing about 800 dps and the clones doing about 1200 dps, which logically assumes the total should be 2000 dps, 200 dps goes missing some how)

> > Condition Mirage Scepter no clones : 675

> > Condition Mirage Scepter 3 clones: 984

> > Condition Mirage Scepter Clones Only: 498

> > Power Mesmer Max Range Greatsword Berserker's Amulet: 2170

>

> This numbers are outdated, pre-megabalance and all. But the principal is true in that generally speaking mesmer condition weapons are actually rather undertuned, especially axe considering it's a melee weapon and they rely on clones supplementing their damage to get even decent dps numbers. Even with the difference between Deadshot and Wanderer, the only weapon that got close to Greatsword's auto attack was staff and that's when it's within 400 range.

 

When it comes to clone ambush dmg scepter and staff were/ are the most problematic. And the current nerfed state barely touched them directly. Like instead reworking scepter ambush to only hit 1-2 projectile each ambush and be more about applying an utility effect (like a daze on sword, but no dmg) they just nerfed a core trait into the ground (sharper images if i remember the name right from the bleed trait). Sword clone ambush does zero dmg, gs clones do half decent dmg (more should not be tho, it is balanced dmg with main purpose of stacking might and vuln on targets). And normal clone autoattacks do way to much condi dmg compared to power clones.

[Leonidrex.5649]

worst autoattacks in game, YEP

phantasms are shitty versions of abilities from other classes but with more ways to fail to work and with more counterplay YEP

"mirage" op op but in reality ambushes make the class bearable, can you actually imagine roaming as mesmer without sword ambush? lol

thief op and hardcounters mes YEP

most important abilities on which class relies to get job done are bugged and refuse to work YEP cough, sword ambush, sword 3, axe 3, axe ambush.

shattered clones AI stupid YEP

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > > Ambushes should not be tied to evade looking at how it encapsulate mirage to maximising endurance (and anet to nerf vigor and evade.).

> > > Maybe each phatasm spawn fill a bar who can be activated to ambush when a certain amount is completed with a F5 button. Or by amno system like @"bravan.3876" explained.

> > > And clones shouldn't apply condition as it create too much disparities between condi and power versions.. (whoses damage can then come back to mesmer skills.).

> > >

> > > @"bravan.3876" :

> > > Mesmer core was the best duellist by far and had most build banned in duel/tournament back in time. Only left the "shatter burst" which was only 30% of possiblities.

> > > The only reason it wasn't highly represented in competitive is because of stealth sustain for some of their temporisation and the lack of in point staying.

> >

> > Clones shouldn't apply conditions but that's more to prohibit turret style gameplay than condition mesmer have a damage advantage over power.

> >

> > These are premega balance numbers but with the auto attacks on deadshot and berserker amulets mesmer dps looked like this;

> >

> > > Condition Mirage Axe: 1492

> > > Condition Mirage Staff No Clones with bounces: 846 (For bounced to occur and for the mesmer to get the 2x hit bonus assume 400 range or less. Safe to assume ~425 without bounces)

> > > Condition Mirage Staff 3 Clones no mesmer with bounces: 1202

> > > Condition Mirage Staff 3 Clones with bounces: 1814 (I'm not sure how, but despite the mesmer doing about 800 dps and the clones doing about 1200 dps, which logically assumes the total should be 2000 dps, 200 dps goes missing some how)

> > > Condition Mirage Scepter no clones : 675

> > > Condition Mirage Scepter 3 clones: 984

> > > Condition Mirage Scepter Clones Only: 498

> > > Power Mesmer Max Range Greatsword Berserker's Amulet: 2170

> >

> > This numbers are outdated, pre-megabalance and all. But the principal is true in that generally speaking mesmer condition weapons are actually rather undertuned, especially axe considering it's a melee weapon and they rely on clones supplementing their damage to get even decent dps numbers. Even with the difference between Deadshot and Wanderer, the only weapon that got close to Greatsword's auto attack was staff and that's when it's within 400 range.

>

> When it comes to clone ambush dmg scepter and staff were/ are the most problematic. And the current nerfed state barely touched them directly. Like instead reworking scepter ambush to only hit 1-2 projectile each ambush and be more about applying an utility effect (like a daze on sword, but no dmg) they just nerfed a core trait into the ground (sharper images if i remember the name right from the bleed trait). Sword clone ambush does zero dmg, gs clones do half decent dmg (more should not be tho, it is balanced dmg with main purpose of stacking might and vuln on targets). And normal clone autoattacks do way to much condi dmg compared to power clones.

 

Lol no.

 

Condition Mirage Scepter 3 clones ambush spam on a moving target: 1439

Condition Mirage Staff 3 Clones Ambush Spam: 2465

 

Scepter 3 is barely an increase over the standard auto attack . The Staff ambush was still good when it connected with all clones but it could also just be circle strafed. Again, the problem with clone conditions is that they allow for turret style gameplay, not that they had good damage ouput. Mesmer damage output on those weapons is balanced around the clones being there assisting.

 

Again, the memser condition weapons are notoriously among the lowest damaging kits in the game. You seem to have some vendetta about the ambush skills allowing for actual decent damage output from them due to your ridiculous anti-condition vendetta.

[bravan.3876]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> worst autoattacks in game, YEP

> phantasms are kitten versions of abilities from other classes but with more ways to fail to work and with more counterplay YEP

> "mirage" op op but in reality ambushes make the class bearable, can you actually imagine roaming as mesmer without sword ambush? lol

> thief op and hardcounters mes YEP

> most important abilities on which class relies to get job done are bugged and refuse to work YEP cough, sword ambush, sword 3, axe 3, axe ambush.

> shattered clones AI stupid YEP

 

As long as the average rdm pleb gets lost in clones they will complain. The lower the skill lvl in this game gets (and you can see at Mesmer balance how low the skill already is and how clueless devs are) the more complains about Mesmer will come up, no matter how weak or strong Mesmer actually is.

 

@"mortrialus.3062" no clue why you talk about scepter 3 when i talk about Mirage mechanic IH clone ambushes

[Axl.8924]

Is there no way to do something like make chaotic interrupt useful for the non broken spec if its core core work with it only somehow? like move it into chrono elite or something so that it cannot be used with mirage.

 

Also is there a way to fix chronophantasma so it don't have to be nerfed into the ground?

 

 

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > worst autoattacks in game, YEP

> > phantasms are kitten versions of abilities from other classes but with more ways to fail to work and with more counterplay YEP

> > "mirage" op op but in reality ambushes make the class bearable, can you actually imagine roaming as mesmer without sword ambush? lol

> > thief op and hardcounters mes YEP

> > most important abilities on which class relies to get job done are bugged and refuse to work YEP cough, sword ambush, sword 3, axe 3, axe ambush.

> > shattered clones AI stupid YEP

>

> As long as the average rdm pleb gets lost in clones they will complain. The lower the skill lvl in this game gets (and you can see at Mesmer balance how low the skill already is and how clueless devs are) the more complains about Mesmer will come up, no matter how weak or strong Mesmer actually is.

>

> @"mortrialus.3062" no clue why you talk about scepter 3 when i talk about Mirage mechanic IH clone ambushes

 

I'm not talking about scepter 3. It's scepter autos with 3 clones and scepter ambush with 3 clones.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > worst autoattacks in game, YEP

> > phantasms are kitten versions of abilities from other classes but with more ways to fail to work and with more counterplay YEP

> > "mirage" op op but in reality ambushes make the class bearable, can you actually imagine roaming as mesmer without sword ambush? lol

> > thief op and hardcounters mes YEP

> > most important abilities on which class relies to get job done are bugged and refuse to work YEP cough, sword ambush, sword 3, axe 3, axe ambush.

> > shattered clones AI stupid YEP

>

> As long as the average rdm pleb gets lost in clones they will complain. The lower the skill lvl in this game gets (and you can see at Mesmer balance how low the skill already is and how clueless devs are) the more complains about Mesmer will come up, no matter how weak or strong Mesmer actually is.

 

oh i know, the ammout of retardation I have seen from people is amazing.

I play against ranger that sicem my phantasm, then used rapid fire into my disort ( it reflects ) didnt cancel it ate entire thing, then knocked himself back with arrow.

removed stun and ran away in same....

I was just resing.

Every single condi thief I have met this season has bursted themselves into my disort ( reflect ). Some were so fucking dumb to do it repeatedly, and the brightest ones even did it 3-4 times in a single encounter.

 

And its not just enemies, I have been resing downed thief ( proced reflect dome trait ) and he was so dumb to teleport into ranger that was shooting himself for about 3s.

And people get away with this shit most of the time too.

I have played with the same cthief 3 games in a row, and he tried to burst me like 15 times, failed everysingle time. half the time he almost kills himself but it doesnt matter since thief is so fucking fast that he can afford to waste 1/4 of the match hitting himself.

Its infuriating that people get away with shit like that, albeit funny

[Allarius.5670]

Sure, build Mes toward roaming role only, but in such a way that a pocket thief to protect against opposing thief isn't needed. I don't agree with this at all, in theory every profession should be able to spec into various roles, but it would at least be acceptable.

 

Clones are problematic. Phantasms post-re-work are great, their persistence is temporary outside of Chronophantasma (problematic design). Clones present a UI clutter element that dramatically alters the game play experience at different competitive levels. At higher skills it is little issue, though in extreme cases can obfuscate important cast animations (see Renegade as another example) that reduces counter play and consequently does not feel "fair" to opponents. This is extremely exacerbated at low skill levels where obvious counterplay is not realized (cleave, visual identification of the real Mesmer, etc.). Smoothing this curve would go a long way to improving Mesmer's position in the game (from skill-reworks to various accessible roles). Clones, and consequently how Mesmer functions and interacts with shatters, needs a phantasm-style re-work. Namely, re-design the zoo-element of Mesmer into a temporary element that happens/triggers in key moments rather than persistent visual clutter.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Axl.8924" said:

> Is there no way to do something like make chaotic interrupt useful for the non broken spec if its core core work with it only somehow? like move it into chrono elite or something so that it cannot be used with mirage.

 

no ammount of CI will make me use chrono.

CI should have gotten ICD and be left as it was. It was one of the only usable traits that gave might in sustained manner. Now that chaos is gutted, crusade was a success I guess, thx for that @"bravan.3876" btw.

mesmer has no boons whatsoever, no might, no swiftness, no protection, no regeneration, no retaliation, fury only in overnerfed dueling.

meta mes has 0 boons, thats not even bad, its pathetic, its actually fucking pathetic that "meta" build cant get a single boon ( no 5-10% uptime on vigor doesnt count )

In fact its so shit that Sigil of Absorption gives me more boons then my entire build combined.

[viquing.8254]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > > > Ambushes should not be tied to evade looking at how it encapsulate mirage to maximising endurance (and anet to nerf vigor and evade.).

> > > > Maybe each phatasm spawn fill a bar who can be activated to ambush when a certain amount is completed with a F5 button. Or by amno system like @"bravan.3876" explained.

> > > > And clones shouldn't apply condition as it create too much disparities between condi and power versions.. (whoses damage can then come back to mesmer skills.).

> > > >

> > > > @"bravan.3876" :

> > > > Mesmer core was the best duellist by far and had most build banned in duel/tournament back in time. Only left the "shatter burst" which was only 30% of possiblities.

> > > > The only reason it was highly represented in competitive is because of stealth sustain for some of their temporisation and the lack of in point staying.

> > >

> > > Core meta in conquest was Domination Duelling Illusion (if it was called like that back then, i do not remember actually) power shatter, for sure no points spend in Inspiration or Chaos and no condi, played with Moa, Illusion of Life, Portal and blink. Means not 3, not even 2 but only 1 duel utility. Instead elite and 2 utilities tied to teamsupport on a roaming class pain training together with the Thief, what also hold it viable even though it always was countered by Thief, but the pain train could peel for each other. Neither stealthspam abuse nor MoP spam was used back then. Most healthy Mesmer conquest meta ever, maybe aside from current interrupt Powermirage without broken traits like old CI or old CS giving stun/ immob instant , max range on MoD.

> > Don't think there was only the monobuild you see in tournament who needed a hudge team assist, I was a full WvW players during this time and there was plethora of builds who made mesmer way behind other class when talking about duelling, from phantasms to blackwater passing by some other variants. IP builds were just the top of the iceberg.

> > > Btw outsourcing the ambush window activation from dodge button to a Mirage specific f5 button was on of my suggestions.

> > Nice to see we agree on something.

> >

>

> I am not talking about WvW. WvW always was an unbalanced mess and ofc cancer like PU stealthspam or Inspiration Mantra spam, Phantamsspam and go afk lets Ai win for you duelling builds were used there. Op stats, op sigills, op everything, WvW literally doesn't count for any balance discussion. Only PvE balance in GvG arenas is worse. I am talking about conquest meta balance and i think the most healthy for Mesmer is an offensive roaming build with offensive or rotational teamsupport, if it is condi (suboptimal because of the wrong design of condis gamewide and the op normal clone autoattack condi dmg application) or power.

> Pushing Mesmer into a conquest duel side node role will never be balanced in my view. The tools it needs in addition to its basic mechanics (which are one of the strongest in the game, with the highest active outplay potential) to be a good duelist also surviving +1s well, will always make it op. It literally needs to trait into Chaos or Inspiration which are, in my view and for the already mentioned reasons, in current state still highly problematic. Mesmer needs to be balanced in a way that the most viable/useful conquest meta is high skill ceiling, otherwise Mesmer is broken. And the best way in my opinion is to balance Mesmer in a way that a roaming/ offensive teamsupport build is the most useful in conquest and for that meta, even though Mesmer has easier builds available. Not the monkey side node role.

 

Rolf stop going again in a skill discussion please. it wasn't afk AI at all and before HoT WvW stats gap between PvP was not hudge at all. And more than that there weren't full traitline taken before june 2015 patch. There was big mixt of multiple traitline.

Pushing mesmer not into duel side node will require more out of combat mobility (mean mes has the worst swiftness uptime for example.) or bring more teamfight tools (like SoIn or glamour.).

And a class is around 7 traitlines not just 3... It tic me like always when I read your posts.

[Axl.8924]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Axl.8924" said:

> > Is there no way to do something like make chaotic interrupt useful for the non broken spec if its core core work with it only somehow? like move it into chrono elite or something so that it cannot be used with mirage.

>

> no ammount of CI will make me use chrono.

> CI should have gotten ICD and be left as it was. It was one of the only usable traits that gave might in sustained manner. Now that chaos is gutted, crusade was a success I guess, thx for that @"bravan.3876" btw.

> mesmer has no boons whatsoever, no might, no swiftness, no protection, no regeneration, no retaliation, fury only in overnerfed dueling.

> meta mes has 0 boons, thats not even bad, its pathetic, its actually kitten pathetic that "meta" build cant get a single boon ( no 5-10% uptime on vigor doesnt count )

> In fact its so kitten that Sigil of Absorption gives me more boons then my entire build combined.

 

Then they should prob overhaul mes, because no buffs is insanity.

 

I think they might need to overhaul quickness somehow

 

Also if CI had a ICD how long like 10 seconds? 20 seconds?

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Axl.8924" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > @"Axl.8924" said:

> > > Is there no way to do something like make chaotic interrupt useful for the non broken spec if its core core work with it only somehow? like move it into chrono elite or something so that it cannot be used with mirage.

> >

> > no ammount of CI will make me use chrono.

> > CI should have gotten ICD and be left as it was. It was one of the only usable traits that gave might in sustained manner. Now that chaos is gutted, crusade was a success I guess, thx for that @"bravan.3876" btw.

> > mesmer has no boons whatsoever, no might, no swiftness, no protection, no regeneration, no retaliation, fury only in overnerfed dueling.

> > meta mes has 0 boons, thats not even bad, its pathetic, its actually kitten pathetic that "meta" build cant get a single boon ( no 5-10% uptime on vigor doesnt count )

> > In fact its so kitten that Sigil of Absorption gives me more boons then my entire build combined.

>

> Then they should prob overhaul mes, because no buffs is insanity.

>

> I think they might need to overhaul quickness somehow

>

> Also if CI had a ICD how long like 10 seconds? 20 seconds?

 

last patch? 8s propably, now? no idea. 10-15.

i would be content with bug fixes at this point

 

EDIT or at least rework shitty traits into something usefull like mental anguish.

they could make it give bonus % dmg to shatters per clone ( the more you have the bigger the bonus ) and make landed shatter give long lasting might, lik 1 might for 15s.

now suddenly you have a trait that is no longer meme used to try to 1shot people and absolutely useless in anything else. now you have trait thats made for sustained damage and promotes proper use of class resources.

[mortrialus.3062]

Some quick and dirty damage per second numbers post mega balance.

 

Wizard's Amulet Condition Mirage

Axe: 900

Scepter with three clones: 850

Staff with three clones: 1,500

 

Berserker's Amulet Power Greatsword

Greatsword Autos Max Range: 1,600

 

Compared to something like

 

Core Ranger with Owl on Demolisher's Amulet

Greatsword autoattack chain: 2,400

Axe Autoattack: 2,000

 

Berserker's Amulet Grenades Holosmith:

Grenade Auto: 2,200

Photon Forge Auto: 1,900

 

Berserker's Amulet Power Herald

Sword 2,000

 

Sage Amulet Condi Herald

Mace Auto: 1,500

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> Some quick and dirty damage per second numbers post mega balance.

>

> Wizard's Amulet Condition Mirage

> Axe: 900

> Scepter with three clones: 850

> Staff with three clones: 1,500

>

> Berserker's Amulet Power Greatsword

> Greatsword Autos Max Range: 1,600

>

> Compared to something like

>

> Core Ranger with Owl on Demolisher's Amulet

> Greatsword autoattack chain: 2,400

> Axe Autoattack: 2,000

>

> Berserker's Amulet Grenades Holosmith:

> Grenade Auto: 2,200

> Photon Forge Auto: 1,900

>

> Berserker's Amulet Power Herald

> Sword 2,000

>

> Sage Amulet Condi Herald

> Mace Auto: 1,500

 

I bet its also like standing still and hitting golem, when you add in the fact that other classes also gain ~15 might, and sometimes even quickness the difference gets even bigger.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > Some quick and dirty damage per second numbers post mega balance.

> >

> > Wizard's Amulet Condition Mirage

> > Axe: 900

> > Scepter with three clones: 850

> > Staff with three clones: 1,500

> >

> > Berserker's Amulet Power Greatsword

> > Greatsword Autos Max Range: 1,600

> >

> > Compared to something like

> >

> > Core Ranger with Owl on Demolisher's Amulet

> > Greatsword autoattack chain: 2,400

> > Axe Autoattack: 2,000

> >

> > Berserker's Amulet Grenades Holosmith:

> > Grenade Auto: 2,200

> > Photon Forge Auto: 1,900

> >

> > Berserker's Amulet Power Herald

> > Sword 2,000

> >

> > Sage Amulet Condi Herald

> > Mace Auto: 1,500

>

> I bet its also like standing still and hitting golem, when you add in the fact that other classes also gain ~15 might, and sometimes even quickness the difference gets even bigger.

 

Yep. Medium golem standing still auto attacking. If you actually use a few skills and then auto you'll see output like this;

 

Condition Revenant using Mace 2+3 off cooldown and autoing: 2,200 dps

 

Power Revenant Phase Traversal into Impossible Odds Auto Attacking: 3,600 dps

 

Core Ranger Greatsword with Owl, Mauling off cooldown with autos: 3,700 (attack of opportunity on pet attacks is NO joke)

[bravan.3876]

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > > > > Ambushes should not be tied to evade looking at how it encapsulate mirage to maximising endurance (and anet to nerf vigor and evade.).

> > > > > Maybe each phatasm spawn fill a bar who can be activated to ambush when a certain amount is completed with a F5 button. Or by amno system like @"bravan.3876" explained.

> > > > > And clones shouldn't apply condition as it create too much disparities between condi and power versions.. (whoses damage can then come back to mesmer skills.).

> > > > >

> > > > > @"bravan.3876" :

> > > > > Mesmer core was the best duellist by far and had most build banned in duel/tournament back in time. Only left the "shatter burst" which was only 30% of possiblities.

> > > > > The only reason it was highly represented in competitive is because of stealth sustain for some of their temporisation and the lack of in point staying.

> > > >

> > > > Core meta in conquest was Domination Duelling Illusion (if it was called like that back then, i do not remember actually) power shatter, for sure no points spend in Inspiration or Chaos and no condi, played with Moa, Illusion of Life, Portal and blink. Means not 3, not even 2 but only 1 duel utility. Instead elite and 2 utilities tied to teamsupport on a roaming class pain training together with the Thief, what also hold it viable even though it always was countered by Thief, but the pain train could peel for each other. Neither stealthspam abuse nor MoP spam was used back then. Most healthy Mesmer conquest meta ever, maybe aside from current interrupt Powermirage without broken traits like old CI or old CS giving stun/ immob instant , max range on MoD.

> > > Don't think there was only the monobuild you see in tournament who needed a hudge team assist, I was a full WvW players during this time and there was plethora of builds who made mesmer way behind other class when talking about duelling, from phantasms to blackwater passing by some other variants. IP builds were just the top of the iceberg.

> > > > Btw outsourcing the ambush window activation from dodge button to a Mirage specific f5 button was on of my suggestions.

> > > Nice to see we agree on something.

> > >

> >

> > I am not talking about WvW. WvW always was an unbalanced mess and ofc cancer like PU stealthspam or Inspiration Mantra spam, Phantamsspam and go afk lets Ai win for you duelling builds were used there. Op stats, op sigills, op everything, WvW literally doesn't count for any balance discussion. Only PvE balance in GvG arenas is worse. I am talking about conquest meta balance and i think the most healthy for Mesmer is an offensive roaming build with offensive or rotational teamsupport, if it is condi (suboptimal because of the wrong design of condis gamewide and the op normal clone autoattack condi dmg application) or power.

> > Pushing Mesmer into a conquest duel side node role will never be balanced in my view. The tools it needs in addition to its basic mechanics (which are one of the strongest in the game, with the highest active outplay potential) to be a good duelist also surviving +1s well, will always make it op. It literally needs to trait into Chaos or Inspiration which are, in my view and for the already mentioned reasons, in current state still highly problematic. Mesmer needs to be balanced in a way that the most viable/useful conquest meta is high skill ceiling, otherwise Mesmer is broken. And the best way in my opinion is to balance Mesmer in a way that a roaming/ offensive teamsupport build is the most useful in conquest and for that meta, even though Mesmer has easier builds available. Not the monkey side node role.

>

> Rolf stop going again in a skill discussion please. it wasn't afk AI at all and before HoT WvW stats gap between PvP was not hudge at all. And more than that there weren't full traitline taken before june 2015 patch. There was big mixt of multiple traitline.

> Pushing mesmer not into duel side node will require more out of combat mobility (mean mes has the worst swiftness uptime for example.) or bring more teamfight tools (like SoIn or glamour.).

> And a class is around 7 traitlines not just 3... It tic me like always when I read your posts.

 

And just as on other classes (Engi Alchemie for exmple) those 2 from Mesmer out of 7 are very problematic. Agree to me or not i don't care. It is my opinion, Chaos and Inspiration have too low skill floor/ ceiling and are either too passive (Chaos) or too spammy (Inspiration) designed. And because Mesmer has one of the strongest basic mechanics with one of the highest active outplay potential it is important that it doesn't have mistake friendly stuff in addition. A mesmer with low skill ceiling build and too low skill floor on average usefulness will always be broken. If you want an easy time there are 8 other classes you can pick. Which are also too easy to play atm btw, even compared with their own basic mechanics. At least they did not get their mechanics destroyed until now but wait for the next Anet move in terms of trade offs. It will be just another mess then.

 

Whatever what i said still stands: I talk about conquest meta balance, WvW and Duelserver builds have nothing to do with it at all.

 

 

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > worst autoattacks in game, YEP

> > > phantasms are kitten versions of abilities from other classes but with more ways to fail to work and with more counterplay YEP

> > > "mirage" op op but in reality ambushes make the class bearable, can you actually imagine roaming as mesmer without sword ambush? lol

> > > thief op and hardcounters mes YEP

> > > most important abilities on which class relies to get job done are bugged and refuse to work YEP cough, sword ambush, sword 3, axe 3, axe ambush.

> > > shattered clones AI stupid YEP

> >

> > As long as the average rdm pleb gets lost in clones they will complain. The lower the skill lvl in this game gets (and you can see at Mesmer balance how low the skill already is and how clueless devs are) the more complains about Mesmer will come up, no matter how weak or strong Mesmer actually is.

> >

> > @"mortrialus.3062" no clue why you talk about scepter 3 when i talk about Mirage mechanic IH clone ambushes

>

> I'm not talking about scepter 3. It's scepter autos with 3 clones and scepter ambush with 3 clones.

 

I missread that, my bad. I don't have dmg numbers from golem tests, all i can say is that pre last big patch clone ambushes, in particular on scepter and staff did too much, aside from the coutnerplay they have and should have, that is no argument. I am too tired now to explain again why condi ambushes are wrong designed and need a rework and why condis in GW2 are also wrong designed just from the basics (it is not a Mesmer specific problem). If you feel better when thinking i just have a biased vendetta vs something, even though i could explain and listed a lot of reasons why i think that, then go for it. I already explained several times what should be done to condi ambushes and maybe to power ambushes when giving Mirage 2 dodges back, i will not do it again. Agree or not, that is up to you.

 

 

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Axl.8924" said:

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > @"Axl.8924" said:

> > > > Is there no way to do something like make chaotic interrupt useful for the non broken spec if its core core work with it only somehow? like move it into chrono elite or something so that it cannot be used with mirage.

> > >

> > > no ammount of CI will make me use chrono.

> > > CI should have gotten ICD and be left as it was. It was one of the only usable traits that gave might in sustained manner. Now that chaos is gutted, crusade was a success I guess, thx for that @"bravan.3876" btw.

> > > mesmer has no boons whatsoever, no might, no swiftness, no protection, no regeneration, no retaliation, fury only in overnerfed dueling.

> > > meta mes has 0 boons, thats not even bad, its pathetic, its actually kitten pathetic that "meta" build cant get a single boon ( no 5-10% uptime on vigor doesnt count )

> > > In fact its so kitten that Sigil of Absorption gives me more boons then my entire build combined.

> >

> > Then they should prob overhaul mes, because no buffs is insanity.

> >

> > I think they might need to overhaul quickness somehow

> >

> > Also if CI had a ICD how long like 10 seconds? 20 seconds?

>

> last patch? 8s propably, now? no idea. 10-15.

> i would be content with bug fixes at this point

>

> EDIT or at least rework kitten traits into something usefull like mental anguish.

> they could make it give bonus % dmg to shatters per clone ( the more you have the bigger the bonus ) and make landed shatter give long lasting might, lik 1 might for 15s.

> now suddenly you have a trait that is no longer meme used to try to 1shot people and absolutely useless in anything else. now you have trait thats made for sustained damage and promotes proper use of class resources.

 

Funny you think i have any impact on balance, i guess i do not wintrade, acc share and sell titles enough for that, or i have the wrogn friends.

And deleting CI was necessary and has nothing to do with Mirage or any other Mesmer spec. It is broken by itself already. That has to do with providing a lock down that needs a stunbreak AND a condiremove to get countered, what is just broken on a class with oneshot potential, even when the class has no instant max range interrupt tools. With MoD it gets even more crazy. And it doesn't matter how much cd you have on interrupts. When literally ONE random interrupt on an autoattack is enough to win a fight then its a zero counterplay killer mechanic should not exist, not even with 300 secs cd, just like passive life safer should not exist, also not with 300 secs cd. Simple as it is and the logic in that one is so obvious that i cannot believe that you and apharma still do not understand it. CI was broken since game release, just lucky it was not use that much before BD in Chaos got nerfed (at least in PvP conquest not, only in WvW and on Duelservers what was cancer enough) so ppl needed to take the second lame stuff in Chaos that makes sense for a point holder (PU stealth simply doesn't make sense on a side node build). Also why you want might in a defensive traitline? We all complain about classes with too much sustain AND too much dmg in the same time, you just want the same for Mesmer? No, just delete every dmg multiplier and offensive boon on defensive traitlines already, they have way too less opportunity costs in dmg anyway. I would even vote for offensive stat penalty on defensive traitlines and defensive stat penalty on offensive traitlines (as we had in core GW2) and that for all classes ofc.

 

And ICD on old CI would even make it less skillbased, less active and less tactical, because the trait might be on cd when you rly need to interrupt something, like a keyskill (oh wait, you don't need tactical on purpose interrupts on keyskills with broken old CI trait, my bad rofl, just spam and hope to get an autoattack interrupted). But i am not surprised, you complained about how passive and useless for on purpose tactical plays the reflect on dodge trait felt after last nerf, missing that it is exactly the added ICD causing this passivity and prevents timed offensive dodges for the reflect purpose only. ICDs on dodge traits do not make sense at all, i explained why very well already several times. And also here the logic is that obvious, that it is hard to understand that ppl still don't get it.