UNOwen.7132 Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Not really. You never wanted to steal into a block anyway, and that specific situation you mention is *super* narrow. Otherwise, your steal was always used to interrupt big cooldowns like, say, Glyph. Steals advantage is that its instant cast interrupt. Meaning you can both use it while youre stunned, and it hits instantly. In other words, its usage over Shortbow 4 is when youre in a time-sensitive situation. Blocks are not time-sensitive. > > > > > > lol dude, when you plus one on 1v1s, where's the glyph? do you team fight all day as thief? then you are playing thief wrong. > > > > Because thief is the only class that can move around the map, you never +1 2v2s and you never move past any teamfight after killing someone in a +1 where interrupting glyph could be useful. I mean its not like interrupting glyphs is such a common occurence for thief Sindrener did it *multiple* times in the MOTA. Even has 2 highlights on his channel just about interrupting glyphs rn. And its just an example, too. > > even if team fight, steal is always best to used to take down key target, without downed enemy there will be no glyph, you are basically saving steal for nothing. Oh no I dont disagree. Most of the time you dont save the steal at all. But here is the thing. You dont save it for a block either. IF youre going to save it, you save it for something like glyph. > you do realize sindrener is not specifically saving steal for glyph right? He isnt saving for a block either, is he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighter.5631 Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not really. You never wanted to steal into a block anyway, and that specific situation you mention is *super* narrow. Otherwise, your steal was always used to interrupt big cooldowns like, say, Glyph. Steals advantage is that its instant cast interrupt. Meaning you can both use it while youre stunned, and it hits instantly. In other words, its usage over Shortbow 4 is when youre in a time-sensitive situation. Blocks are not time-sensitive. > > > > > > > > lol dude, when you plus one on 1v1s, where's the glyph? do you team fight all day as thief? then you are playing thief wrong. > > > > > > Because thief is the only class that can move around the map, you never +1 2v2s and you never move past any teamfight after killing someone in a +1 where interrupting glyph could be useful. I mean its not like interrupting glyphs is such a common occurence for thief Sindrener did it *multiple* times in the MOTA. Even has 2 highlights on his channel just about interrupting glyphs rn. And its just an example, too. > > > > even if team fight, steal is always best to used to take down key target, without downed enemy there will be no glyph, you are basically saving steal for nothing. > > Oh no I dont disagree. Most of the time you dont save the steal at all. But here is the thing. You dont save it for a block either. IF youre going to save it, you save it for something like glyph. > > > you do realize sindrener is not specifically saving steal for glyph right? > > He isnt saving for a block either, is he? did i say that people is specifically saving steal for block? i said being unblockable makes the steal better at plus one at the current meta, which you said it's not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not really. You never wanted to steal into a block anyway, and that specific situation you mention is *super* narrow. Otherwise, your steal was always used to interrupt big cooldowns like, say, Glyph. Steals advantage is that its instant cast interrupt. Meaning you can both use it while youre stunned, and it hits instantly. In other words, its usage over Shortbow 4 is when youre in a time-sensitive situation. Blocks are not time-sensitive. > > > > > > > > > > lol dude, when you plus one on 1v1s, where's the glyph? do you team fight all day as thief? then you are playing thief wrong. > > > > > > > > Because thief is the only class that can move around the map, you never +1 2v2s and you never move past any teamfight after killing someone in a +1 where interrupting glyph could be useful. I mean its not like interrupting glyphs is such a common occurence for thief Sindrener did it *multiple* times in the MOTA. Even has 2 highlights on his channel just about interrupting glyphs rn. And its just an example, too. > > > > > > yes, because ele will catch a thief, lol > > > > Why is an Ele supposed to catch a thief? They just need to get in range of the downed guy. And if you think that doesnt happen, I suggest watching MOTA. > > do you realize there's headshot right? Can be LoSd, cant be cast while stunned, doesnt work well with inclines. Its an ok alternative, but far from a perfect one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 After having gone through this thread, I think it would be constructif to change the title to: **Can we have fair trade-off for all e-specs please?** It's true that right now some e-specs have excessive and crippling trade-off while other e-specs have it easy on their own trade-off. - I'm pretty sure mirage would rather sacrifice the extra dodge they can get from the hypothetical use of the mirage only utilities if it mean that they gain back their full endurance bar (2 dodges). - The same way, I'm pretty sure having the ability to launch 15 different powerful AoE skills instead of 3 average aoe skills benefit the FB a bit to much. - The scourge give up a transformation in favor of 5 F skills, why does the holo only give up a single of it's 5 F skills for the equivalent of what the scourge give up? (well, we could talk about scourge low CD but there is a ressource requiered, so I guess it's not relevant. The same way we could talk about the lack of health shield but the holo retain it's ability to use it's utility skills so it's equally irrelevant.) Fondamentally, there is a need to seek more fairness in the different trade-offs that each e-spec have. Right now they feel imbalanced between each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not really. You never wanted to steal into a block anyway, and that specific situation you mention is *super* narrow. Otherwise, your steal was always used to interrupt big cooldowns like, say, Glyph. Steals advantage is that its instant cast interrupt. Meaning you can both use it while youre stunned, and it hits instantly. In other words, its usage over Shortbow 4 is when youre in a time-sensitive situation. Blocks are not time-sensitive. > > > > > > > > > > lol dude, when you plus one on 1v1s, where's the glyph? do you team fight all day as thief? then you are playing thief wrong. > > > > > > > > Because thief is the only class that can move around the map, you never +1 2v2s and you never move past any teamfight after killing someone in a +1 where interrupting glyph could be useful. I mean its not like interrupting glyphs is such a common occurence for thief Sindrener did it *multiple* times in the MOTA. Even has 2 highlights on his channel just about interrupting glyphs rn. And its just an example, too. > > > > > > even if team fight, steal is always best to used to take down key target, without downed enemy there will be no glyph, you are basically saving steal for nothing. > > > > Oh no I dont disagree. Most of the time you dont save the steal at all. But here is the thing. You dont save it for a block either. IF youre going to save it, you save it for something like glyph. > > > > > you do realize sindrener is not specifically saving steal for glyph right? > > > > He isnt saving for a block either, is he? > > did i say that people is specifically saving steal for block? i said being unblockable makes the steal better at plus one at the current meta, which you said it's not. Oh, thats what you meant. Well, you could say it makes it *very* slightly better, since in the extremely rare case where their block lines up perfectly with your timing (and they used the block early knowing that a thief is on the map, which is questionable given that the damage isnt there to be killed anyway), it does help. But then, thats a much smaller upside than the loss of range is a downside. Even in +1ing, steal is better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighter.5631 Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not really. You never wanted to steal into a block anyway, and that specific situation you mention is *super* narrow. Otherwise, your steal was always used to interrupt big cooldowns like, say, Glyph. Steals advantage is that its instant cast interrupt. Meaning you can both use it while youre stunned, and it hits instantly. In other words, its usage over Shortbow 4 is when youre in a time-sensitive situation. Blocks are not time-sensitive. > > > > > > > > > > > > lol dude, when you plus one on 1v1s, where's the glyph? do you team fight all day as thief? then you are playing thief wrong. > > > > > > > > > > Because thief is the only class that can move around the map, you never +1 2v2s and you never move past any teamfight after killing someone in a +1 where interrupting glyph could be useful. I mean its not like interrupting glyphs is such a common occurence for thief Sindrener did it *multiple* times in the MOTA. Even has 2 highlights on his channel just about interrupting glyphs rn. And its just an example, too. > > > > > > > > yes, because ele will catch a thief, lol > > > > > > Why is an Ele supposed to catch a thief? They just need to get in range of the downed guy. And if you think that doesnt happen, I suggest watching MOTA. > > > > do you realize there's headshot right? > > Can be LoSd, cant be cast while stunned, doesnt work well with inclines. Its an ok alternative, but far from a perfect one. LOL dude you are so hopeless, you are shifting the main point, I said unblockable is making steal really good, because making block interrupable makes +1 a lot easier, as all the side noders ranger, condi rev, holo relies on blocking for relief. note: i did not say it should be saved only for blocking you respond: being unblockable does jack all, and steal should only be saved for glyph. even your idol sindrener will tell you how completely wrong you are, keep saving steal for glyph without any downed enemy and keep telling yourself blockable steal is better, that will take you to plat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not really. You never wanted to steal into a block anyway, and that specific situation you mention is *super* narrow. Otherwise, your steal was always used to interrupt big cooldowns like, say, Glyph. Steals advantage is that its instant cast interrupt. Meaning you can both use it while youre stunned, and it hits instantly. In other words, its usage over Shortbow 4 is when youre in a time-sensitive situation. Blocks are not time-sensitive. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > lol dude, when you plus one on 1v1s, where's the glyph? do you team fight all day as thief? then you are playing thief wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > Because thief is the only class that can move around the map, you never +1 2v2s and you never move past any teamfight after killing someone in a +1 where interrupting glyph could be useful. I mean its not like interrupting glyphs is such a common occurence for thief Sindrener did it *multiple* times in the MOTA. Even has 2 highlights on his channel just about interrupting glyphs rn. And its just an example, too. > > > > > > > > > > yes, because ele will catch a thief, lol > > > > > > > > Why is an Ele supposed to catch a thief? They just need to get in range of the downed guy. And if you think that doesnt happen, I suggest watching MOTA. > > > > > > do you realize there's headshot right? > > > > Can be LoSd, cant be cast while stunned, doesnt work well with inclines. Its an ok alternative, but far from a perfect one. > > LOL dude you are so hopeless, you are shifting the main point, I said unblockable is making steal really good, because making block interrupable makes +1 a lot easier, as all the side noders ranger, condi rev, holo relies on blocking for relief. note: i did not say it should be saved only for blocking > I have already responded to that. "If your arrival aligns with their block perfectly, then yes, its good". The problem is that that happens *VERY* rarely. It makes +1s easier in, lets say, 1 in 20 cases. And thats probably a very generous estimate. Now, 1 in 20 times it does anything at all. Compared to how many times the lower range is a downside? Yeah. > you respond: being unblockable does jack all, and steal should only be saved for glyph. > Im saying *if* you save it for anything, you would not save it for a block. Again, if you happen to get the rare perfect timing, yes, its good. But its rare. Its an upside that matters only a fraction of the time the downside matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not really. You never wanted to steal into a block anyway, and that specific situation you mention is *super* narrow. Otherwise, your steal was always used to interrupt big cooldowns like, say, Glyph. Steals advantage is that its instant cast interrupt. Meaning you can both use it while youre stunned, and it hits instantly. In other words, its usage over Shortbow 4 is when youre in a time-sensitive situation. Blocks are not time-sensitive. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > lol dude, when you plus one on 1v1s, where's the glyph? do you team fight all day as thief? then you are playing thief wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > Because thief is the only class that can move around the map, you never +1 2v2s and you never move past any teamfight after killing someone in a +1 where interrupting glyph could be useful. I mean its not like interrupting glyphs is such a common occurence for thief Sindrener did it *multiple* times in the MOTA. Even has 2 highlights on his channel just about interrupting glyphs rn. And its just an example, too. > > > > > > > > > > yes, because ele will catch a thief, lol > > > > > > > > Why is an Ele supposed to catch a thief? They just need to get in range of the downed guy. And if you think that doesnt happen, I suggest watching MOTA. > > > > > > do you realize there's headshot right? > > > > Can be LoSd, cant be cast while stunned, doesnt work well with inclines. Its an ok alternative, but far from a perfect one. > > LOL dude you are so hopeless, you are shifting the main point, I said unblockable is making steal really good, because making block interrupable makes +1 a lot easier, as all the side noders ranger, condi rev, holo relies on blocking for relief. note: i did not say it should be saved only for blocking > > you respond: being unblockable does jack all, and steal should only be saved for glyph. > > even your idol sindrener will tell you how completely wrong you are, keep saving steal for glyph without any downed enemy and keep telling yourself blockable steal is better, that will take you to plat. Actually, I forgot, its even worse than that. Not only would this only happen very rarely normally, but ... thief uses Basilisk Venom right now. So, that "your steal is unblockable making +1s easier" thing is kind of made redundant, since, you know. Basilisk Venom makes your attack unblockable? So I guess Swipe doesnt even have that rare upside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not really. You never wanted to steal into a block anyway, and that specific situation you mention is *super* narrow. Otherwise, your steal was always used to interrupt big cooldowns like, say, Glyph. Steals advantage is that its instant cast interrupt. Meaning you can both use it while youre stunned, and it hits instantly. In other words, its usage over Shortbow 4 is when youre in a time-sensitive situation. Blocks are not time-sensitive. > > > > > > > > lol dude, when you plus one on 1v1s, where's the glyph? do you team fight all day as thief? then you are playing thief wrong. > > > > > > Because thief is the only class that can move around the map, you never +1 2v2s and you never move past any teamfight after killing someone in a +1 where interrupting glyph could be useful. I mean its not like interrupting glyphs is such a common occurence for thief Sindrener did it *multiple* times in the MOTA. Even has 2 highlights on his channel just about interrupting glyphs rn. And its just an example, too. > > > > even if team fight, steal is always best to used to take down key target, without downed enemy there will be no glyph, you are basically saving steal for nothing. > > Oh no I dont disagree. Most of the time you dont save the steal at all. But here is the thing. You dont save it for a block either. IF youre going to save it, you save it for something like glyph. > > > you do realize sindrener is not specifically saving steal for glyph right? > > He isnt saving for a block either, is he? RIGHT HERE. He literally talks about a "bad steal" he made because he used it early instead of saving it for the Herald's channeled block. He literally said he should have saved it for the herald block. Come on man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighter.5631 Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not really. You never wanted to steal into a block anyway, and that specific situation you mention is *super* narrow. Otherwise, your steal was always used to interrupt big cooldowns like, say, Glyph. Steals advantage is that its instant cast interrupt. Meaning you can both use it while youre stunned, and it hits instantly. In other words, its usage over Shortbow 4 is when youre in a time-sensitive situation. Blocks are not time-sensitive. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > lol dude, when you plus one on 1v1s, where's the glyph? do you team fight all day as thief? then you are playing thief wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because thief is the only class that can move around the map, you never +1 2v2s and you never move past any teamfight after killing someone in a +1 where interrupting glyph could be useful. I mean its not like interrupting glyphs is such a common occurence for thief Sindrener did it *multiple* times in the MOTA. Even has 2 highlights on his channel just about interrupting glyphs rn. And its just an example, too. > > > > > > > > > > > > yes, because ele will catch a thief, lol > > > > > > > > > > Why is an Ele supposed to catch a thief? They just need to get in range of the downed guy. And if you think that doesnt happen, I suggest watching MOTA. > > > > > > > > do you realize there's headshot right? > > > > > > Can be LoSd, cant be cast while stunned, doesnt work well with inclines. Its an ok alternative, but far from a perfect one. > > > > LOL dude you are so hopeless, you are shifting the main point, I said unblockable is making steal really good, because making block interrupable makes +1 a lot easier, as all the side noders ranger, condi rev, holo relies on blocking for relief. note: i did not say it should be saved only for blocking > > > > you respond: being unblockable does jack all, and steal should only be saved for glyph. > > > > even your idol sindrener will tell you how completely wrong you are, keep saving steal for glyph without any downed enemy and keep telling yourself blockable steal is better, that will take you to plat. > > Actually, I forgot, its even worse than that. Not only would this only happen very rarely normally, but ... thief uses Basilisk Venom right now. So, that "your steal is unblockable making +1s easier" thing is kind of made redundant, since, you know. Basilisk Venom makes your attack unblockable? So I guess Swipe doesnt even have that rare upside. you really do not have any idea how to play thief. yes core steal is so much better that mota finals both ran power daredevil, lol. get back to me when you get some basic knowledge of the current meta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not really. You never wanted to steal into a block anyway, and that specific situation you mention is *super* narrow. Otherwise, your steal was always used to interrupt big cooldowns like, say, Glyph. Steals advantage is that its instant cast interrupt. Meaning you can both use it while youre stunned, and it hits instantly. In other words, its usage over Shortbow 4 is when youre in a time-sensitive situation. Blocks are not time-sensitive. > > > > > > > > > > lol dude, when you plus one on 1v1s, where's the glyph? do you team fight all day as thief? then you are playing thief wrong. > > > > > > > > Because thief is the only class that can move around the map, you never +1 2v2s and you never move past any teamfight after killing someone in a +1 where interrupting glyph could be useful. I mean its not like interrupting glyphs is such a common occurence for thief Sindrener did it *multiple* times in the MOTA. Even has 2 highlights on his channel just about interrupting glyphs rn. And its just an example, too. > > > > > > even if team fight, steal is always best to used to take down key target, without downed enemy there will be no glyph, you are basically saving steal for nothing. > > > > Oh no I dont disagree. Most of the time you dont save the steal at all. But here is the thing. You dont save it for a block either. IF youre going to save it, you save it for something like glyph. > > > > > you do realize sindrener is not specifically saving steal for glyph right? > > > > He isnt saving for a block either, is he? > > > > RIGHT HERE. He literally talks about a "bad steal" he made because he used it early instead of saving it for the Herald's channeled block. He literally said he should have saved it for the herald block. Come on man. Oh yes, because one specific case, without you showing the context, is the rule of thumb. I mean its not like in the first game in that stream he used shortbow 4 to interrupt a Revs shield block instead of saving swipe for it. Edit: Oh it gets better. I looked back to see the context. That "bad steal" was one where he stole before the rev used shield block, and then .... he just swapped to shortbow, used shortbow 4 and killed the Rev without any difficulties. Yeah, not so much of a "bad steal", is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not really. You never wanted to steal into a block anyway, and that specific situation you mention is *super* narrow. Otherwise, your steal was always used to interrupt big cooldowns like, say, Glyph. Steals advantage is that its instant cast interrupt. Meaning you can both use it while youre stunned, and it hits instantly. In other words, its usage over Shortbow 4 is when youre in a time-sensitive situation. Blocks are not time-sensitive. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > lol dude, when you plus one on 1v1s, where's the glyph? do you team fight all day as thief? then you are playing thief wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because thief is the only class that can move around the map, you never +1 2v2s and you never move past any teamfight after killing someone in a +1 where interrupting glyph could be useful. I mean its not like interrupting glyphs is such a common occurence for thief Sindrener did it *multiple* times in the MOTA. Even has 2 highlights on his channel just about interrupting glyphs rn. And its just an example, too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes, because ele will catch a thief, lol > > > > > > > > > > > > Why is an Ele supposed to catch a thief? They just need to get in range of the downed guy. And if you think that doesnt happen, I suggest watching MOTA. > > > > > > > > > > do you realize there's headshot right? > > > > > > > > Can be LoSd, cant be cast while stunned, doesnt work well with inclines. Its an ok alternative, but far from a perfect one. > > > > > > LOL dude you are so hopeless, you are shifting the main point, I said unblockable is making steal really good, because making block interrupable makes +1 a lot easier, as all the side noders ranger, condi rev, holo relies on blocking for relief. note: i did not say it should be saved only for blocking > > > > > > you respond: being unblockable does jack all, and steal should only be saved for glyph. > > > > > > even your idol sindrener will tell you how completely wrong you are, keep saving steal for glyph without any downed enemy and keep telling yourself blockable steal is better, that will take you to plat. > > > > Actually, I forgot, its even worse than that. Not only would this only happen very rarely normally, but ... thief uses Basilisk Venom right now. So, that "your steal is unblockable making +1s easier" thing is kind of made redundant, since, you know. Basilisk Venom makes your attack unblockable? So I guess Swipe doesnt even have that rare upside. > > you really do not have any idea how to play thief. yes core steal is so much better that mota finals both ran power daredevil, lol. Yes, because swipe is the *only* difference between Daredevil and core thief. And thats why people swapped from Core D/P to Daredevil without steal or swipe being touched. Wait what? That doesnt make any sense. Of course it doesnt, its hogwash. Core steal is better, but Daredevil is a better traitline than whatever you could get instead (I mean seriously, what are you going to go for? CS/DA? Your damage isnt high enough to warrant that. Acrobatics? Hardly, not even Sword builds use that traitline anymore). > get back to me when you get some basic knowledge of the current meta. Says the guy who is unaware that Basilisk Venom is the Elite of choice right now, making even your idea of "just have their block line up perfectly with your arrival and its totally better" not matter, because Basilisk Venom makes that redundant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighter.5631 Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not really. You never wanted to steal into a block anyway, and that specific situation you mention is *super* narrow. Otherwise, your steal was always used to interrupt big cooldowns like, say, Glyph. Steals advantage is that its instant cast interrupt. Meaning you can both use it while youre stunned, and it hits instantly. In other words, its usage over Shortbow 4 is when youre in a time-sensitive situation. Blocks are not time-sensitive. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > lol dude, when you plus one on 1v1s, where's the glyph? do you team fight all day as thief? then you are playing thief wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because thief is the only class that can move around the map, you never +1 2v2s and you never move past any teamfight after killing someone in a +1 where interrupting glyph could be useful. I mean its not like interrupting glyphs is such a common occurence for thief Sindrener did it *multiple* times in the MOTA. Even has 2 highlights on his channel just about interrupting glyphs rn. And its just an example, too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes, because ele will catch a thief, lol > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why is an Ele supposed to catch a thief? They just need to get in range of the downed guy. And if you think that doesnt happen, I suggest watching MOTA. > > > > > > > > > > > > do you realize there's headshot right? > > > > > > > > > > Can be LoSd, cant be cast while stunned, doesnt work well with inclines. Its an ok alternative, but far from a perfect one. > > > > > > > > LOL dude you are so hopeless, you are shifting the main point, I said unblockable is making steal really good, because making block interrupable makes +1 a lot easier, as all the side noders ranger, condi rev, holo relies on blocking for relief. note: i did not say it should be saved only for blocking > > > > > > > > you respond: being unblockable does jack all, and steal should only be saved for glyph. > > > > > > > > even your idol sindrener will tell you how completely wrong you are, keep saving steal for glyph without any downed enemy and keep telling yourself blockable steal is better, that will take you to plat. > > > > > > Actually, I forgot, its even worse than that. Not only would this only happen very rarely normally, but ... thief uses Basilisk Venom right now. So, that "your steal is unblockable making +1s easier" thing is kind of made redundant, since, you know. Basilisk Venom makes your attack unblockable? So I guess Swipe doesnt even have that rare upside. > > > > you really do not have any idea how to play thief. yes core steal is so much better that mota finals both ran power daredevil, lol. > > Yes, because swipe is the *only* difference between Daredevil and core thief. And thats why people swapped from Core D/P to Daredevil without steal or swipe being touched. Wait what? That doesnt make any sense. Of course it doesnt, its hogwash. Core steal is better, but Daredevil is a better traitline than whatever you could get instead (I mean seriously, what are you going to go for? CS/DA? Your damage isnt high enough to warrant that. Acrobatics? Hardly, not even Sword builds use that traitline anymore). > > > get back to me when you get some basic knowledge of the current meta. > > Says the guy who is unaware that Basilisk Venom is the Elite of choice right now, making even your idea of "just have their block line up perfectly with your arrival and its totally better" not matter, because Basilisk Venom makes that redundant. lol how dumb are you, people taking basilisk farther proves how good unblockable is in the current meta, which clearly proves unblockable steal is good, and disapprove your original post of"unblockable does jack all". which leads back to the topic, unblockable trade off is too good. get some brain dude, u need it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not really. You never wanted to steal into a block anyway, and that specific situation you mention is *super* narrow. Otherwise, your steal was always used to interrupt big cooldowns like, say, Glyph. Steals advantage is that its instant cast interrupt. Meaning you can both use it while youre stunned, and it hits instantly. In other words, its usage over Shortbow 4 is when youre in a time-sensitive situation. Blocks are not time-sensitive. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > lol dude, when you plus one on 1v1s, where's the glyph? do you team fight all day as thief? then you are playing thief wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because thief is the only class that can move around the map, you never +1 2v2s and you never move past any teamfight after killing someone in a +1 where interrupting glyph could be useful. I mean its not like interrupting glyphs is such a common occurence for thief Sindrener did it *multiple* times in the MOTA. Even has 2 highlights on his channel just about interrupting glyphs rn. And its just an example, too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes, because ele will catch a thief, lol > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why is an Ele supposed to catch a thief? They just need to get in range of the downed guy. And if you think that doesnt happen, I suggest watching MOTA. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > do you realize there's headshot right? > > > > > > > > > > > > Can be LoSd, cant be cast while stunned, doesnt work well with inclines. Its an ok alternative, but far from a perfect one. > > > > > > > > > > LOL dude you are so hopeless, you are shifting the main point, I said unblockable is making steal really good, because making block interrupable makes +1 a lot easier, as all the side noders ranger, condi rev, holo relies on blocking for relief. note: i did not say it should be saved only for blocking > > > > > > > > > > you respond: being unblockable does jack all, and steal should only be saved for glyph. > > > > > > > > > > even your idol sindrener will tell you how completely wrong you are, keep saving steal for glyph without any downed enemy and keep telling yourself blockable steal is better, that will take you to plat. > > > > > > > > Actually, I forgot, its even worse than that. Not only would this only happen very rarely normally, but ... thief uses Basilisk Venom right now. So, that "your steal is unblockable making +1s easier" thing is kind of made redundant, since, you know. Basilisk Venom makes your attack unblockable? So I guess Swipe doesnt even have that rare upside. > > > > > > you really do not have any idea how to play thief. yes core steal is so much better that mota finals both ran power daredevil, lol. > > > > Yes, because swipe is the *only* difference between Daredevil and core thief. And thats why people swapped from Core D/P to Daredevil without steal or swipe being touched. Wait what? That doesnt make any sense. Of course it doesnt, its hogwash. Core steal is better, but Daredevil is a better traitline than whatever you could get instead (I mean seriously, what are you going to go for? CS/DA? Your damage isnt high enough to warrant that. Acrobatics? Hardly, not even Sword builds use that traitline anymore). > > > > > get back to me when you get some basic knowledge of the current meta. > > > > Says the guy who is unaware that Basilisk Venom is the Elite of choice right now, making even your idea of "just have their block line up perfectly with your arrival and its totally better" not matter, because Basilisk Venom makes that redundant. > > lol how dumb are you, people taking basilisk farther proves how good unblockable is in the current meta, which clearly proves unblockable steal is good, and disapprove your original post of"unblockable does jack all". which leads back to the topic, unblockable trade off is too good. get some brain dude, u need it. You should tone down your ego, take a step back, and *think*. Remember. You said yourself "you dont save swipe for blocks". Now, what was your argument for swipes upside totally being great? "If you +1 and their block lines up perfectly with your arrival, then you can interrupt the block and go for a burst when otherwise you would have had to wait". Ok, lets ignore how rare that is. Here is the problem. If the thief is +1ing, then they are already using Basilisk Venom. Meaning their steal is *unblockable anyway*. Or in other words, Swipes unblockable does absolutely *nothing* in that case. So tell me. If it doesnt make a difference during a fight, because you dont save swipe for blocks. And it doesnt make a difference during +1s, because basilisk venom already gives unblockable. When is swipes unblockable supposed to matter, exactly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > > > > > > dragon hunter needs trade off, seriously, skills team is so incompetent..it's insane, daredevil also literally has 0 trade off, because unblockable on swipe is basically a compensation for range cut > > > > > > > > > > > > Hardly a compensation when the unblockable does jack all, especially with Shortbow 4s recent change. Swipe is just a downgrade, the only reason people play Daredevil now is because DA has become useless. > > > > > > > > > > ? are you sure? because swipe kitten over rev and warrior and holo and ranger more compared to core power thief. when you interrupt their block, it's easy take down. > > > > > thanks to this, daredevil is also more braindead as you don't need to watch for block to steal. > > > > > > > > he thinks using swipe to interrupt block is useless :) > > > > > > Or rather, there is *always* a better thing to swipe than a block. Even if, for some reason, you are desperate to interrupt a block, just use shortbow 4. You dont care for speed when interrupting those, and the poison helps with healing if thats what youre worried about. > > > > no there is not 90% of the time. if you attack anything with channeled block you swipe the block, always. > > Nope. You basically *never* swipe the block. Youd much rather keep swipe for a healing skill, a **glyph, a signet, or anything else that is time-sensitive.** But, more importantly ... > > > its not just interrupting block, its denying the enemy time to regain other defensive cooldowns. > > Lets ignore that you would rather interrupt the other defensive cooldowns than the block. Here is the problem: You have shortbow 4. Why would you use swipe instead of shortbow 4 in a case that isnt time-sensitive? Even in the case that interrupting the block is the correct play, the correct way of doing it is shortbow 4, not swipe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"Lighter.5631" said: > > > > > > > > dragon hunter needs trade off, seriously, skills team is so incompetent..it's insane, daredevil also literally has 0 trade off, because unblockable on swipe is basically a compensation for range cut > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hardly a compensation when the unblockable does jack all, especially with Shortbow 4s recent change. Swipe is just a downgrade, the only reason people play Daredevil now is because DA has become useless. > > > > > > > > > > > > ? are you sure? because swipe kitten over rev and warrior and holo and ranger more compared to core power thief. when you interrupt their block, it's easy take down. > > > > > > thanks to this, daredevil is also more braindead as you don't need to watch for block to steal. > > > > > > > > > > he thinks using swipe to interrupt block is useless :) > > > > > > > > Or rather, there is *always* a better thing to swipe than a block. Even if, for some reason, you are desperate to interrupt a block, just use shortbow 4. You dont care for speed when interrupting those, and the poison helps with healing if thats what youre worried about. > > > > > > no there is not 90% of the time. if you attack anything with channeled block you swipe the block, always. > > > > Nope. You basically *never* swipe the block. Youd much rather keep swipe for a healing skill, a** glyph, a signet, or anything else that is time-sensitive.** But, more importantly ... > > > > > its not just interrupting block, its denying the enemy time to regain other defensive cooldowns. > > > > Lets ignore that you would rather interrupt the other defensive cooldowns than the block. Here is the problem: You have shortbow 4. Why would you use swipe instead of shortbow 4 in a case that isnt time-sensitive? Even in the case that interrupting the block is the correct play, the correct way of doing it is shortbow 4, not swipe. > > What exactly are you trying to show? He isnt using Swipe to interrupt any block. He was going to swipe to interrupt the second glyph, but the Ele ported out, so he had to headshot anyway (and got slightly lucky with the angle). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnar.4257 Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > After having gone through this thread, I think it would be constructif to change the title to: **Can we have fair trade-off for all e-specs please?** > It's true that right now some e-specs have excessive and crippling trade-off while other e-specs have it easy on their own trade-off. > - I'm pretty sure mirage would rather sacrifice the extra dodge they can get from the hypothetical use of the mirage only utilities if it mean that they gain back their full endurance bar (2 dodges). > - The same way, I'm pretty sure having the ability to launch 15 different powerful AoE skills instead of 3 average aoe skills benefit the FB a bit to much. > - The scourge give up a transformation in favor of 5 F skills, why does the holo only give up a single of it's 5 F skills for the equivalent of what the scourge give up? (well, we could talk about scourge low CD but there is a ressource requiered, so I guess it's not relevant. The same way we could talk about the lack of health shield but the holo retain it's ability to use it's utility skills so it's equally irrelevant.) > > Fondamentally, there is a need to seek more fairness in the different trade-offs that each e-spec have. Right now they feel imbalanced between each other. Does it matter if trade-offs are "equal" ? Surely what matters is that specs are balanced. Spellbreaker is a massive upgrade over Core Warrior, trading L3 bursts for Full Counter is easily an upgrade. Dragonhunter virtues are clearly stronger than Core Guardian virtues. It still doesn't mean that Spellbreaker or Dragonhunter are super-strong. They're both pretty niche in current meta. And despite the mechanical upgrades, they're both arguably not any stronger than their Core versions, since the actual trait-lines are fairly under-whelming. Pursuing a blanket policy of trade-offs for the sake of trade-offs seems like a distraction from actually achieving balance. It's the same silly one-size-fits-all approach that was taken to CC skills damage reduction. Anyone with common sense can see that removing damage from some CC skills was warranted, but that from others was a mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buran.3796 Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 > @"TeqkOneStylez.8047" said: > He meant Firebrand. > Where is Firebrand trade off? Firebrand healing is atrocius, so you need to devote Honor trailine and Mender amulet to (barely) work. If you go carrion and ditch Honor the damage is great but your sustain is near to 0. Also, most of mantras are bland: currently most of builds only run the heal and maybe another one, which mitigates the Honor synergies. Both core Guard and DH are much better in terms of self sustain and don't need close team synergies to survive: a FB is better in teamfights but would lose on sidenodes in 1 v1 against both core Guardian and DH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > Does it matter if trade-offs are "equal" ? Based on how many thread complain about them, it obviously does for large part of the player base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 Herald's tradeoff is that Anet gave core rev an extra skill KEKW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodama.6453 Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 > @"Eugchriss.2046" said: > A good trade-off for holo would have been something like: They loose all their F-skills and they re replaced by holo skills. The heat mechanic stays as it is now > For fb: They loose their 3 virtues and instead can choose to specialize in one (or 2) of them called tomes. Tomes cds are reduced by huge amount tho. > That is not a good trade-off at all. Engineers are **heavily** reliant on toolbelt skills for their builds, it isn't really rare that utility skills are solely taken for their toolbelt skill even. And it would heavily nerf holosmith's damage potential in PvE, while being a damage dealer is engineer's only viable role in that game mode. Some examples: * med-kit becomes unplayable, since you are removing the self-heal of the skill (which is located on the toolbelt), this change basically **removes** 1 healing skill option from holo entirely * rifle turret toolbelt skill is the only reason to take it, remove surprise shot and rifle turret is dead (just like all the other turrets except healing) * grenade kit: removing grenade barrage removes one of the hard hitters in power holo's rotation * this change **removes 3 stun breaks** (toolbelts from: thumper turret, elixir gun, slick shoes) Not to mention that you are entirely removing 5 skills from the game entirely by removing the toolbelt skills of the exceed skills.... Seriously, that change you are suggesting here absolutely kills build diversity for holosmith. What other class get 1 healing skill and 3 stun break skills removed from their pool to get access to their elite spec? Answer: no one. And you are also destroying the dps of holosmith in PvE, which is the only role engineer is currently viable in. You would have to **heavily** buff holosmith's damage to justify such a change, especially since holosmith is designed to be a dps spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodama.6453 Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > Holosmith losing all their toolbelts would make more sense. Maybe keep the F1 because that would completely bork med kit. > > Firebrand should keep their three tomes but using one puts all of them on cooldown on a shared cooldown imo. Gain access to multiskill tomes but you can't use back to back to back like core virtues. Losing all toolbelts would not just bork med kit, but build diversity, many other skills besides med kit, and in the end holo's dps, too. * rifle turret: currently just taken for the toolbelt skill (instacast damage with low cd), becomes useless * removing toolbelt skills removes **3 stun breaks from engineer's arsenal** (toolbelts of: thumper turret, slick shoes, elixir gun), let that sink in, you are removing **half** of holosmith's stun break options! * removing grenade barrage, an important burst skill in power holo's damage rotation in PvE This is a terrible change and I hope that Anet doesn't consider this even for a millisecond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eugchriss.2046 Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 > @"Kodama.6453" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > Holosmith losing all their toolbelts would make more sense. Maybe keep the F1 because that would completely bork med kit. > > > > Firebrand should keep their three tomes but using one puts all of them on cooldown on a shared cooldown imo. Gain access to multiskill tomes but you can't use back to back to back like core virtues. > > Losing all toolbelts would not just bork med kit, but build diversity, many other skills besides med kit, and in the end holo's dps, too. The whole Photon Forge is about dps, so idk what you re talking about. > @"Kodama.6453" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > * rifle turret: currently just taken for the toolbelt skill (instacast damage with low cd), becomes useless wait a minute, it sounds like PF#2 . You even have PF#4 for the ranged version. > @"Kodama.6453" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > * removing toolbelt skills removes **3 stun breaks from engineer's arsenal** (toolbelts of: thumper turret, slick shoes, elixir gun), let that sink in, you are removing **half** of holosmith's stun break options! Yes, you loose 3 stunbreaks but you gain 3 dps skills and 1 aoe CC. Now it's up to you to choose what you want. Dps or stunbreaks? **CHOOSE**. > @"Kodama.6453" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > * removing grenade barrage, an important burst skill in power holo's damage rotation in PvE Yes but you gain another burst skill aka corona burst. You want a ranged burst or a melee burst? **CHOOSE**. > @"Kodama.6453" said: > > @"Eugchriss.2046" said: > > A good trade-off for holo would have been something like: They loose all their F-skills and they re replaced by holo skills. The heat mechanic stays as it is now > > For fb: They loose their 3 virtues and instead can choose to specialize in one (or 2) of them called tomes. Tomes cds are reduced by huge amount tho. > > > Not to mention that you are entirely removing 5 skills from the game entirely by removing the toolbelt skills of the exceed skills.... I am not removing 5 skills from the game. There will still be there. If you want them, you take core/scrapper, if not then it your choice. However, I am **replacing** 5 skills by 5 others. It sounds fair to me. You can keep the F1 if you want but then no auto attack for PF. Right now, holo is just core + photon forge. Nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 > @"Eugchriss.2046" said: > > @"Kodama.6453" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > Holosmith losing all their toolbelts would make more sense. Maybe keep the F1 because that would completely bork med kit. > > > > > > Firebrand should keep their three tomes but using one puts all of them on cooldown on a shared cooldown imo. Gain access to multiskill tomes but you can't use back to back to back like core virtues. > > > > Losing all toolbelts would not just bork med kit, but build diversity, many other skills besides med kit, and in the end holo's dps, too. > The whole Photon Forge is about dps, so idk what you re talking about. > Not really. Photon Forge itself doesnt actually do particularly high damage anymore. The autoattacks only hit slightly harder than swords until you reach a certain heat threshold, Holo Leap is just barely above but kinda clunky for damage, so you pretty much only have Corona burst for damage. > > @"Kodama.6453" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > * rifle turret: currently just taken for the toolbelt skill (instacast damage with low cd), becomes useless > wait a minute, it sounds like PF#2 . You even have PF#4 for the ranged version. .... why do you think a 0.75 second cast time skill is comparable to an instacast one? Or worse, the long channeled skill like unload, except with so little damage youre better off never using it. > > @"Kodama.6453" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > * removing toolbelt skills removes **3 stun breaks from engineer's arsenal** (toolbelts of: thumper turret, slick shoes, elixir gun), let that sink in, you are removing **half** of holosmith's stun break options! > Yes, you loose 3 stunbreaks but you gain 3 dps skills and 1 aoe CC. Now it's up to you to choose what you want. Dps or stunbreaks? **CHOOSE**. No, you lose 1 DPS skill, 1 stunbreak and 1 utility skill, to gain *1* DPS skill. Easy choice. You *never* use Holosmith again. > > @"Kodama.6453" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > * removing grenade barrage, an important burst skill in power holo's damage rotation in PvE > Yes but you gain another burst skill aka corona burst. You want a ranged burst or a melee burst? **CHOOSE**. Corona burst may be called burst, but its not a burst skill. Its a sustained damage skill. That doesnt hit as hard. And again, there is no choice. You just chronod Holo, and made it one of the few elite specs that is a straight up massive downgrade. Good job. > > @"Kodama.6453" said: > > > @"Eugchriss.2046" said: > > > A good trade-off for holo would have been something like: They loose all their F-skills and they re replaced by holo skills. The heat mechanic stays as it is now > > > For fb: They loose their 3 virtues and instead can choose to specialize in one (or 2) of them called tomes. Tomes cds are reduced by huge amount tho. > > > > > Not to mention that you are entirely removing 5 skills from the game entirely by removing the toolbelt skills of the exceed skills.... > I am not removing 5 skills from the game. There will still be there. If you want them, you take core/scrapper, if not then it your choice. However, I am **replacing** 5 skills by 5 others. It sounds fair to me. You can keep the F1 if you want but then no auto attack for PF. > Right now, holo is just core + photon forge. Nothing else. Not really, no. Losing F5 actually matters a lot more than people might think, and so does the fact that you cant also run tools. The difference between holo and core isnt as massive as people seem to think. Anyway, no, you *are* removing 5 skills from the game. Youre removing the entire photon forge, and holo by extension, from the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toxic.3648 Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 > @"Eugchriss.2046" said: > > @"Kodama.6453" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > Holosmith losing all their toolbelts would make more sense. Maybe keep the F1 because that would completely bork med kit. > > > > > > Firebrand should keep their three tomes but using one puts all of them on cooldown on a shared cooldown imo. Gain access to multiskill tomes but you can't use back to back to back like core virtues. > > > > Losing all toolbelts would not just bork med kit, but build diversity, many other skills besides med kit, and in the end holo's dps, too. > The whole Photon Forge is about dps, so idk what you re talking about. > > > @"Kodama.6453" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > * rifle turret: currently just taken for the toolbelt skill (instacast damage with low cd), becomes useless > wait a minute, it sounds like PF#2 . You even have PF#4 for the ranged version. > > @"Kodama.6453" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > * removing toolbelt skills removes **3 stun breaks from engineer's arsenal** (toolbelts of: thumper turret, slick shoes, elixir gun), let that sink in, you are removing **half** of holosmith's stun break options! > Yes, you loose 3 stunbreaks but you gain 3 dps skills and 1 aoe CC. Now it's up to you to choose what you want. Dps or stunbreaks? **CHOOSE**. > > @"Kodama.6453" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > * removing grenade barrage, an important burst skill in power holo's damage rotation in PvE > Yes but you gain another burst skill aka corona burst. You want a ranged burst or a melee burst? **CHOOSE**. > > @"Kodama.6453" said: > > > @"Eugchriss.2046" said: > > > A good trade-off for holo would have been something like: They loose all their F-skills and they re replaced by holo skills. The heat mechanic stays as it is now > > > For fb: They loose their 3 virtues and instead can choose to specialize in one (or 2) of them called tomes. Tomes cds are reduced by huge amount tho. > > > > > Not to mention that you are entirely removing 5 skills from the game entirely by removing the toolbelt skills of the exceed skills.... > I am not removing 5 skills from the game. There will still be there. If you want them, you take core/scrapper, if not then it your choice. However, I am **replacing** 5 skills by 5 others. It sounds fair to me. You can keep the F1 if you want but then no auto attack for PF. > Right now, holo is just core + photon forge. Nothing else. id like that change for photon forge toolbelt skills if when we leave PF we get the usual toolbelt skills that match the chosen utilities we have slotted, otherwise nah, git that shit outta here. also the kittens that suggested 100-200% heat gain increase on skills have no idea what they are talking about . lemme use holo 5 to get 100 heat and overheat to use an useless cc skill . sounds like good balance ... the other ppl that want overheat to land every single time might aswell have a suicide wish since no other spec would murder themselves with 8k dmg every time they used their class mechanic. PF would become just as useless as chrono's class mechanic and a straight downgrade to core engi like chrono is for mes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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