Black Storm.6974 Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 It is not only Revenant. I’m surprised to see ArenaNet letting the work only half done. Condition damage “needs” to be reduced at least as much as power damage got reduced (then we could have a base where to start to balance professions singularly). We have less healing, some professions got their survivability nerfed, but conditions can hit harder than power damage pre 02-25-2020. PvP is full of condition builds that can annihilate in few seconds even professions with very high cleansing potential in their builds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shao.7236 Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 > @"aelska.4609" said: > > @"Shao.7236" said: > > > @"aelska.4609" said: > > > Herald builds benefit from an insane amount of active defenses: > > > * Staff 3: 2s of block each 20s > > > * Staff 5: 1s of evade each 20s > > > * Shield 5: 3s of block each 25s > > > * Glint heal: 3s of total invulnerability each 30s > > > And of course, 1 dodge each 10s which gives 3/4s of evade. > > > So in a period of 300s, you accumulate 30+15+36+30 +22.5= 133.5 of "untouchable state". > > Typical Power Herald without Sword 3 rotation that involves waiting in between like a Thief because continuous aggressive means death to user, check. Core Revenant can put out the same pressure with less waiting in between, more utility and more damage at once. How about counting the other classes that constantly get Vigor(Core or Renegade) or Stealth, or blocks or blinds. > > > **Almost half of the time, you are immune to direct damage when playing staff+shield+glint revenant** > > Seems reasonable without Stability, if you were to add Stability, bye bye damage. > > > But wait, there is more! > > > **By playing Mallyx, you are nearly immune to conditions thanks to the insane amount of resistance you have**. Also, you get: > > > * 20% damage reduction thanks to Demonic Resistance trait. I will not say "perma", but close to it. > > But nobody uses that trait, it's a lost of damage when you can have protection that doesn't scale as well. > > > * Protection (33% damage reduction) with facet of chaos and shield #4. I will not say "perma", but close to it. > > And what's wrong with that exactly when you have classes that get Protection on evade, Protection on nearly everything they do with an AoE that cleanses them? There's more but I can't think of 'em. Nobody ever uses this facet progressively anyway because it's always tied to a rune spell. > > > * at least 2s of weakness each 15s with Facet of Elements. > > Think about why that is. > > > * at least 3s of weakness each 8s (18s if you take weapon swap in consideration) with staff #2 > > In a perfect world it's reasonable, still not more than Core. > > > But ... There is even more !! With the sage amulet you have insane amount of heals: > > Insane is rather overstating, Revenant scaling is awful with heals. For a reason obviously. > > > * 237 heal each time you use any of mallyx utilities > > You mean anytime you get resistance which is extremely limited on Herald. > > > * 753 each time you break stun > > 3 times at best, which is nothing. > > > * 490 each time you activate any of Glint utilities > > Would spamming utilities be really helpful? Nobody uses that trait when they use shield anyway. > > > * 2732 each time you use shield #5 > > Because otherwise shield would be bad. > > > * 1465 each time you use shield #4 > > Again, because otherwise shield would be bad. > > > * 750 each time you use staff #2 > > Assuming people are now using staff which is technically a better alternative but it's not like they ain't gonna get hit using that skill. > > > * 1620 each time you use staff #4 > > Long vulnerable cast that obviously is always followed after 3 and 5 by a typical offender. If you're experienced enough with Revenant (IDK), you would know that without this skill, Power Revenant wouldn't exist. > > > * 5100 + nbrcondis*646 each time you use mallyx heal > > Only good assuming the user is good itself, which is EXTREMELY rare. The best I ever got with this heal skill is 11k, which is risking on it's own, the reward is justified. Should people NOT spam conditions if they want to kill. > > > * 2053->infinity each time you use glint heal > > Ah, yes. The skill that once it's used, you're extremely vulnerable. Should it always consciously be kept in the mind of people if you want to properly dispatch > > > All of that on a medium health - heavy armor class. > > Yeah, even though Ventari has a higher healing throughput with a CC, just no stunbreak. I think it's reasonable. > > > **__Regardless or their damage output (conditions or damage), or support abilities, this sustain is NOT reasonable.__** > > I think it's reasonable, given that core can outsustain Herald in the right plays because they aren't going to get tossed around. You're also ignoring everything else at play that Revenant depends on in the middle of a fight. > > The problem with that kind of reasoning is that everything separately does not seem overpowered. But when you put them together, as I did in the post you quoted, it becomes ridiculous. > I invite you to imagine the most bunkerish build you can find on any other class and to list us all its defensive options. Maybe we will then be able to discuss. > All I am seeing now is "Hey look, this is a bolt and this is a nut and this is a cylinder it doesn't seem to be so overpowered taken in its own" while I am telling you "yes but together they are a machine gun." Except they are not, Revenant heavily relies on momentum and it's important to disarm that rightfully so. For I have been personally trying to do as many different builds in the past, any builds that come out from the profession always have in turn a weakness that can be defined easily because of the preset nature of the class. To compare your description, it's almost like saying that gun kills, not the user because it wasn't properly handled. Also every objects by themselves are potentially lethal if used right, such is life, such are any of those skills, to be fair all that sustain does not compare to what some others can do, it's only the heal skills that do because.. Mallyx with Herald is an exotic result that is often defined by what the enemy does to it rather than how the user performs which is why it can do so well in the hands of not so well seasoned players. In good hands, it's possible to get extra results but only by "dancing" like most would say. Since the Feb 2020 nerf, there hasn't been much that made it a strong damage dealer. There's way more trade offs than ever and this is why Core has been extremely toned down. Compared anything else and I hate that people think it has big sustain when that sustain is defined by how and what it gets treated. It's even defined by the context and theme itself. Whether it's Jalis or Herald, they both participate in two different ways to make you waste skills. Since the July 2019 rework, Mallyx actually got what it deserved which most disagree with for whatever reason. "Torment bot", "CC is expensive", "CC is useless", "Transfers pointless/Resistance pointless in this powercrept meta". It took over almost 8 months for anyone to realize that it was finally viable in it's own right and now that it is, everyone wants it gone for whatever reason because it's too good? You've got to be kidding me, people are too sucked in the condition meta to realize that this thing is allergic to CC, that Herald just like Renegade in general is allergic to CC, that's only redeemed by the other picked legend. The weaknesses are clear as day by just knowing what the player uses, you will know what's the best way to beat one. No matter how much sustain it has, if players do not make an habit of playing around these weaknesses it's GG. Infuse Light is not gonna change, Empowering Misery is not gonna change, it's always gonna take a little while to dispatch Herald Mallyx because it wants you to rush it and it shouldn't be done that way, not if you cannot take away it's tools. No amount of evade, healing or resistance can save it from progressively small damage/organized bursts. Everything about this setup has best and worst case scenario, it's the players job to make the worst scenario happen. Seriously, it's time to stop mashing buttons, stop laying down all the traps, all deliver out all the conditions, have some patience around it. You'll see that even with support they cannot hold up if they can't heal or attack from via own pressure, it's that simple. You can see supports will keep them alive, but that's where you know they have poor mobility, like what else does it take to make people realize that, then you have to know what your own team is good and bad against, can't have a perfect one no matter what, poor match ups exist. The damage on Mallyx is so null and simplistic that they have to take conditions away from people to be good enough, only standing in the most obvious bursts is the way to die against it. Don't have to remind anyone how flashy and telegraphed Revenant is as a whole, officially that's their description too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virdo.1540 Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 > @"aelska.4609" said: > > @"Shao.7236" said: > > > @"aelska.4609" said: > > > Herald builds benefit from an insane amount of active defenses: > > > * Staff 3: 2s of block each 20s > > > * Staff 5: 1s of evade each 20s > > > * Shield 5: 3s of block each 25s > > > * Glint heal: 3s of total invulnerability each 30s > > > And of course, 1 dodge each 10s which gives 3/4s of evade. > > > So in a period of 300s, you accumulate 30+15+36+30 +22.5= 133.5 of "untouchable state". > > Typical Power Herald without Sword 3 rotation that involves waiting in between like a Thief because continuous aggressive means death to user, check. Core Revenant can put out the same pressure with less waiting in between, more utility and more damage at once. How about counting the other classes that constantly get Vigor(Core or Renegade) or Stealth, or blocks or blinds. > > > **Almost half of the time, you are immune to direct damage when playing staff+shield+glint revenant** > > Seems reasonable without Stability, if you were to add Stability, bye bye damage. > > > But wait, there is more! > > > **By playing Mallyx, you are nearly immune to conditions thanks to the insane amount of resistance you have**. Also, you get: > > > * 20% damage reduction thanks to Demonic Resistance trait. I will not say "perma", but close to it. > > But nobody uses that trait, it's a lost of damage when you can have protection that doesn't scale as well. > > > * Protection (33% damage reduction) with facet of chaos and shield #4. I will not say "perma", but close to it. > > And what's wrong with that exactly when you have classes that get Protection on evade, Protection on nearly everything they do with an AoE that cleanses them? There's more but I can't think of 'em. Nobody ever uses this facet progressively anyway because it's always tied to a rune spell. > > > * at least 2s of weakness each 15s with Facet of Elements. > > Think about why that is. > > > * at least 3s of weakness each 8s (18s if you take weapon swap in consideration) with staff #2 > > In a perfect world it's reasonable, still not more than Core. > > > But ... There is even more !! With the sage amulet you have insane amount of heals: > > Insane is rather overstating, Revenant scaling is awful with heals. For a reason obviously. > > > * 237 heal each time you use any of mallyx utilities > > You mean anytime you get resistance which is extremely limited on Herald. > > > * 753 each time you break stun > > 3 times at best, which is nothing. > > > * 490 each time you activate any of Glint utilities > > Would spamming utilities be really helpful? Nobody uses that trait when they use shield anyway. > > > * 2732 each time you use shield #5 > > Because otherwise shield would be bad. > > > * 1465 each time you use shield #4 > > Again, because otherwise shield would be bad. > > > * 750 each time you use staff #2 > > Assuming people are now using staff which is technically a better alternative but it's not like they ain't gonna get hit using that skill. > > > * 1620 each time you use staff #4 > > Long vulnerable cast that obviously is always followed after 3 and 5 by a typical offender. If you're experienced enough with Revenant (IDK), you would know that without this skill, Power Revenant wouldn't exist. > > > * 5100 + nbrcondis*646 each time you use mallyx heal > > Only good assuming the user is good itself, which is EXTREMELY rare. The best I ever got with this heal skill is 11k, which is risking on it's own, the reward is justified. Should people NOT spam conditions if they want to kill. > > > * 2053->infinity each time you use glint heal > > Ah, yes. The skill that once it's used, you're extremely vulnerable. Should it always consciously be kept in the mind of people if you want to properly dispatch > > > All of that on a medium health - heavy armor class. > > Yeah, even though Ventari has a higher healing throughput with a CC, just no stunbreak. I think it's reasonable. > > > **__Regardless or their damage output (conditions or damage), or support abilities, this sustain is NOT reasonable.__** > > I think it's reasonable, given that core can outsustain Herald in the right plays because they aren't going to get tossed around. You're also ignoring everything else at play that Revenant depends on in the middle of a fight. > > I invite you to imagine the most bunkerish build you can find on any other class and to list us all its defensive options. Maybe we will then be able to discuss. > All I am seeing now is "Hey look, this is a bolt and this is a nut and this is a cylinder it doesn't seem to be so overpowered taken in its own" while I am telling you "yes but together they are a machine gun." u mean core necro? or holo? or tempest? cuz they are even more bunkerish than condi revs. +can deven dish out more damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tycura.1982 Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > Meanwhile at Anet HQ: > > > > Dev 1: We pushed through with those ranger pet nerfs everyone wanted > > Dev 2: Great, based on the feedback of xXForumPosterXx, ranger pets were everything that's wrong with PvP. Surely the community will be happy now! > > Dev 1: Nooo... they're just complaining about Prot Holo now > > Dev 2: Mortar kit? Didn't we hold off on nerfing that because kits were underperforming? I thought they wanted kits to be viable > > Dev 1: Aparently not. Send the nerfs through? > > Dev 2: So be it. > > > > 5 minutes later. . . > > > > Dev 2: Everyone's complaining about cRev now. > > Dev 1: Oh for the love of-- Let them complain. I need a coffee. > > thats what happens when in a game with 9 classes, and 27 specs in total you balance 0,5 spec at a time, each time taking 4 months. > at this rate it will take 15 years of fixes to make any real progress I'll do it for free in a weekend with a six pack and some dedication. Just be prepared for Condi is supplementary in most cases Melee hits harder than ranged Long wind up telegraphed skills hit hardest of all (PLB, Executioners) Multi hit skills that last longer than a single dodge deal less damage Wells, symbols and other static aoe sources are toned down Stealth can't stack Warrior becomes the balance standard that classes will be nerfed/buffed to for Duelist Necro becomes the balance standard for team fighting specs Pets lose most their damage and become sources of utility while ranger gets damage buffs. Core thief can use two weapon sets but other thief specs cannot Every spec will have a role that they're pigeonholed into Warrior Core: Bunker Berserker: DPS Sprb: Duelist Guardian Core: Duelist DH: Bunker FB: Support Revenant Core: Bunker Herald: Roamer Renegade: Support Ranger Core: Duelist Druid: Support Soulbeast: DPS Thief Core: Roamer DD: Duelist DE: DPS Engineer Core: DPS Scrapper: Bunker Holo: Duelist Mesmer Core: Roamer Chrono: Support (IP restored F4 F5 split) Mirage: Duelist Necromancer Core: DPS Reaper: Duelist Scourge: Support Elementalist Core: DPS Tempest: Support Weaver: Duelist If a class is performing a role outside of it's pigeonhole it gets met with fixes within a week regardless of ranked, MAT, mota. If a class is underperforming in it's pigeonhole it is buffed until on par with baseline class The only specs that can kill with only conditions are Core Necromancer and Core Mesmer Now tell me how I'm wrong and dumb blah blah blah. Yes I know it won't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stallic.2397 Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 Ultimate Condi tank. Just silly this isn't nerfed yet. Literally the exact thing so many complained about before Feb Big Patch: condi and tanks will become the new meta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koen.1327 Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 l2p in my gold 2 games everybody mass ccs the condi rev and stows their weapon in a 5v5 fight on point mid is life the moment it pops glint heal just stow your weapon and symbols and it's only a 2k heal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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