Sword

[Taril.8619]

**Tactical Strike** - Damage increased by 100% when striking from the front.

**Infiltrator's Return** - Duration reduced to 8 seconds.

**Pistol Whip** - Initiative cost reduced to 4 (5 in PvP/WvW)

**Flanking Strike** - Initiative cost reduced to 2 (3 in PvP/WvW)

**Larcenous Strike** - Max targets: 3. Damage bonus vs boonless targets increased to 50%.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

Tactical strike already does 4k vs some opponents in WvW, and I'm not playing particularly glassy. Do you really want that thing hitting for 8k? Think how the mug>CnD>tactical strike would look with that change.

Infiltrator's return change wouldn't really change anything defensively or offensively. It feels good as it is, so why change it?

Pistol whip ini revert would be a good thing. The damage nerf still makes the set not really worth taking over S/D, but the lower cost would make the set feel much better and might see it used some.

Flanking strike doesn't need an ini reduction, you'd just buff the ability of S/D thieves to dodge without a target and frankly they have enough dodges as it is.

Larcenous strike damage would be OP with that change, especially with the flanking strike change. Better to buff the auto attack on sword imo.

 

[Taril.8619]

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> Tactical strike already does 4k vs some opponents in WvW, and I'm not playing particularly glassy. Do you really want that thing hitting for 8k? Think how the mug>CnD>tactical strike would look with that change.

 

It does less damage than Backstab against face (1.0 vs 1.2 coefficient)

 

With 100% more damage, it will still be less damage than Backstab vs backs (2.0 vs 2.4 coefficient)

 

If Tactical Strike is so strong, Dagger must be the most insane weapon for Thieves.

 

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> Infiltrator's return change wouldn't really change anything defensively or offensively. It feels good as it is, so why change it?

 

It feels bad to me. 15 seconds wait to be able to engage again, or having to spend 2 init and teleport back and thus render a re-engage moot...

 

It just doesn't sit right when I'm using sword...

 

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> Pistol whip ini revert would be a good thing. The damage nerf still makes the set not really worth taking over S/D, but the lower cost would make the set feel much better and might see it used some.

 

For PvP/WvW the damage is so low that it probably wouldn't see play. But the lower init cost could help in PvE.

 

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> Flanking strike doesn't need an ini reduction, you'd just buff the ability of S/D thieves to dodge without a target and frankly they have enough dodges as it is.

 

Depends on how you look at things.

 

From a PvP/WvW perspective, Flanking Strike needs an absurd cost because it can be spammed as an evade.

 

From a PvE perspective, it's a total of 6 init for 2.4 coefficient (2.72 with the boonless bonus on Larcenous) which is garbage and is part of why the best way to use Sword in PvE is just auto attack...

 

I suppose you could make it function like Unload and refund 2 Init (1 in PvP/WvW) on landing if PvP/WvW dodge spam is a concern.

 

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> Larcenous strike damage would be OP with that change, especially with the flanking strike change. Better to buff the auto attack on sword imo.

 

Not really that OP.

 

Going from a 1.6 coefficient with a 20% modifier (1.92 effective coefficient) to a 50% modifier (2.4 coefficient) in PvE wouldn't be that OP, it'd just make actually using skills with Sword a DPS gain. (Alongside the change to Flanking Strike, otherwise, it's still nowhere close to actually worth using. Not when Weakening Charge is a 2.5 coefficient for 3 init and Three Round Burst a 2.25 coefficient for 4 init (Alongside an actually good stealth skill for damage))

 

In PvP/WvW, it's a 1.3 coefficient (So from 1.56 to 1.95) with the caveat that it requires boonless targets, which is not super common with the prevelance of boonspam (In combination with Thieves lack of boonrip... Having 2 from Bountiful Theft, 1 from Rending Shade and 2 from Larcenous Strike itself wherein it would not get the damage bonus while stripping the boons)

 

It could also utilize a competitive split if it does become too absurd in PvP/WvW, to tune down the damage bonus/coefficient.

 

As far as buffing sword auto attacks... For PvP/WvW, sure, the damage on it is a bit anaemic. For PvE, the damage of sword autos is fine, the issue of sword is that it's literally not worthwhile to use any skills and it is purely just auto attacks which is not viable (Unlike say, Reaper auto attacks in Shroud which constitute a large portion of their damage output, there is no resource cost for sword autos)

 

[Momekic.8603]

I support the OP. Sword could use some minor buffs.

 

Tactical Strike could use a buff. 100% might be a bit too much. But a damage buff would be nice. Backtab should still do the bigger damage.

 

Infil’s Return seems okay, but it does seem like its too long sometimes, so it could be shortened some, but making it 8 may be too short.

 

Pistol Whip could definitely use the initiative revert. Its too clunky right now at 6 initiative. Even with the slight buff it received last patch its still a garbo skill.

 

Flanking and Larcenous feel fine. I agree with Jungle that the sword auto attack chain could use a slight buff vs a flanking/larcenous buff.

 

 

[Astyrah.4015]

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> Better to buff the auto attack on sword imo.

>

 

would love if sword autos hit harder for how slower it is compared to other weapon choices, or make the autos faster but same damage

 

[dDuff.3860]

These buffs are crazy and should never happen unless you want beast thief and thousands of complaints.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

Only issue I see is aa could be a little faster, same speed as rev sword aa, all else is pretty good atm.

[Taril.8619]

> @"dDuff.3860" said:

> These buffs are crazy and should never happen unless you want beast thief and thousands of complaints.

 

Care to elaborate?

 

Such as why Sword is so brokenly OP that some buffs would completely destroy all balance in the game?

[Taril.8619]

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> Only issue I see is aa could be a little faster, same speed as rev sword aa, all else is pretty good atm.

 

Rev sword auto attack is slower than thief sword.

 

Thief sword is 1.88 seconds per full combo.

Rev sword is 2.05 seconds per full combo.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

Dosnt feel like it. Last hit on theif is kinda slow though

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > Tactical strike already does 4k vs some opponents in WvW, and I'm not playing particularly glassy. Do you really want that thing hitting for 8k? Think how the mug>CnD>tactical strike would look with that change.

>

> It does less damage than Backstab against face (1.0 vs 1.2 coefficient)

>

> With 100% more damage, it will still be less damage than Backstab vs backs (2.0 vs 2.4 coefficient)

>

> If Tactical Strike is so strong, Dagger must be the most insane weapon for Thieves.

 

True, but S/D also has a lot more utility through boonrip and dodges that D/P doesn't, and D/P makes up for that with easier stealth access and damage. I run a marauder/valk daredevil with speed runes for one of my roaming builds, DA 212 Tr 312 DD 122, my engage in WvW when roaming is infiltrator's strrike/mug (usually hits for 3kish) into cloak and dagger (3-5k on crit) into tactical strike (3-5k on crit), which gives around 9-13k total damage depending on the target's armor and the might and vuln stacks from traits and cloak and dagger.

 

Obviously full tank builds will take less than the 9-13k, but since we are talking about sniping backliners like eles, scourges and revs, I'll stick with those numbers for now. If we buff tactical strike as you wish it will do 6-8k damage pretty comfortably, meaning that chain would do 12-16k damage. This is too much for a couple of reasons:

(1) is a bit too high to be healthy for an engage from 3k range (when combined with shadowstep) with the option of porting out 2.4k range with a built in stunbreak.

(2) Kinda renders D/P obsolete in the process. Different weapons have different roles, sword is a control weapon in that it is about controlling the positioning of the fight more than dagger which goes for more damage.

 

It might be a good change for PvE, but would need a skill split for WvW and PvP imo.

 

> > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > Infiltrator's return change wouldn't really change anything defensively or offensively. It feels good as it is, so why change it?

>

> It feels bad to me. 15 seconds wait to be able to engage again, or having to spend 2 init and teleport back and thus render a re-engage moot...

>

> It just doesn't sit right when I'm using sword...

 

Fair enough, this might just be a preference thing then. I personally get more value out of the longer timer in WvW because I am using it to port into the enemy backliners, so that's where I am coming from.

 

> > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > Pistol whip ini revert would be a good thing. The damage nerf still makes the set not really worth taking over S/D, but the lower cost would make the set feel much better and might see it used some.

>

> For PvP/WvW the damage is so low that it probably wouldn't see play. But the lower init cost could help in PvE.

 

True that. Although a S/P daredevil hit my glassy DE build for 10k off pistol whip the other night, so the damage is still there if you build for it evidently. The ini revert would be a good change still though, as it would make the set flow so much better.

 

> > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > Flanking strike doesn't need an ini reduction, you'd just buff the ability of S/D thieves to dodge without a target and frankly they have enough dodges as it is.

>

> Depends on how you look at things.

>

> From a PvP/WvW perspective, Flanking Strike needs an absurd cost because it can be spammed as an evade.

>

> From a PvE perspective, it's a total of 6 init for 2.4 coefficient (2.72 with the boonless bonus on Larcenous) which is garbage and is part of why the best way to use Sword in PvE is just auto attack...

>

> I suppose you could make it function like Unload and refund 2 Init (1 in PvP/WvW) on landing if PvP/WvW dodge spam is a concern.

 

The ini refund idea is a good compromise, but I would still make it a PvE only change personally. I guess the problem sword has is that in the PvE instances you are playing, you're pretty much guaranteed 25 vuln on the enemy and 25 might on yourself; in PvP and WvW, you will get higher DPS from mixing cloak and dagger and steal into the rotation because of the added vulnerability and might stacks that won't be capped in that situation.

 

> > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > Larcenous strike damage would be OP with that change, especially with the flanking strike change. Better to buff the auto attack on sword imo.

>

> Not really that OP.

>

> Going from a 1.6 coefficient with a 20% modifier (1.92 effective coefficient) to a 50% modifier (2.4 coefficient) in PvE wouldn't be that OP, it'd just make actually using skills with Sword a DPS gain. (Alongside the change to Flanking Strike, otherwise, it's still nowhere close to actually worth using. Not when Weakening Charge is a 2.5 coefficient for 3 init and Three Round Burst a 2.25 coefficient for 4 init (Alongside an actually good stealth skill for damage))

 

Well, larcenous strike is hitting for 5-7k in WvW depending on target etc now. Given it's unblockable and rips boons, that feels about right imo, especially since like I say, I could run glassier than I do. I feel that this is more a problem of the might/vuln being capped like I mentioned earlier, but a higher damage for PvE only would be fine by me.

 

> In PvP/WvW, it's a 1.3 coefficient (So from 1.56 to 1.95) with the caveat that it requires boonless targets, which is not super common with the prevelance of boonspam (In combination with Thieves lack of boonrip... Having 2 from Bountiful Theft, 1 from Rending Shade and 2 from Larcenous Strike itself wherein it would not get the damage bonus while stripping the boons)

 

Problem is when you factor in sleight of hand and absorption sigil into things. Say I'm attacking a warrior and he uses his full counter. I use flanking strike and combo that with swipe. I'm on daredevil so swipe is unblockable, meaning using swipe into a block or full counter will hit and is also a guaranteed interrupt because of sleight of hand, that's 5 boons ripped (3 from sigil, 2 from swipe) and I just set up flanking strike. Cloak and dagger into tactical strike adds another potential interrupt, meaning 4 boons ripped (3 from sigil, 1 from rending shade). You're a lot more likely to catch your opponent without boons for that larcenous strike than you might think.

 

> It could also utilize a competitive split if it does become too absurd in PvP/WvW, to tune down the damage bonus/coefficient.

 

Agreed.

 

> As far as buffing sword auto attacks... For PvP/WvW, sure, the damage on it is a bit anaemic. For PvE, the damage of sword autos is fine, the issue of sword is that it's literally not worthwhile to use any skills and it is purely just auto attacks which is not viable (Unlike say, Reaper auto attacks in Shroud which constitute a large portion of their damage output, there is no resource cost for sword autos)

 

Think I've largely addressed this in previous comments. Most of the extra damage from using the other skills on the set is from might/vuln stacks, which are capped in PvE but not WvW.

[dDuff.3860]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"dDuff.3860" said:

> > These buffs are crazy and should never happen unless you want beast thief and thousands of complaints.

>

> Care to elaborate?

>

> Such as why Sword is so brokenly OP that some buffs would completely destroy all balance in the game?

 

because sword 2 is an ultimate mobility tool. It compensate any below average damage, while sword damage is already actually ok.

Increasing tactical strike damage by 100% would make it 2.0 coeff (backstab is 1,8 from behind) — in addition to all the effects it already provides (blind/daze, 10x vuln). Should i elaborate more on this?

 

Infiltrator return is incredibly ok with being 15 second, because it provides you with the complexity — think of it —> using sword 2 on the far enemy into weaponswap into shadowstep to get a huge mobility dash. Then, after you get a decap/kill, you use shadowstep and sword return to get back to the point in the original fight <— my point it is a game complexity, which require you to plan your actions to get a big value from it. What you are asking for — just cheaper chasing tool, which sword kinda has enough. No idea what is your reasoning for it tbh.

 

Pistol Whip — is a stun, and evade, and damage. No game mode needs a spammability of such a strong skill. if anything, the damage, or stun duration can be increased to get pwhip more focused on something. 6 initiative is a big cost for something that provides big effect. And I'm very sad with february patch just destroying pwhip in all directions — damage, stun, cost.

 

Flanking strike — again, damage, unblockable, evade and setup for a bigger hit. What is your reasoning for this? to spam evades more? No pls, enough.

 

Larcenous strike — lol you ok dude? the larcenous strike has 1,6 power coefficient, unblockable, removes boons. +50% damage will get you to the 2,4 coeff (backstab is 1,8 from behind). making it 3 target aoe...

 

So in the end you should care to elaborate what has brought you to such biased sword-buffs which are completely aren't needed and will just make thief stupidly OP. Sword is already fine and fun way to play the game on your own, capable of winning duels and being a liability in any match. Why it would need some adjustments, when there is stuff to get adressed first?

[Taril.8619]

> @"dDuff.3860" said:

> > @"Taril.8619" said:

> > > @"dDuff.3860" said:

> > > These buffs are crazy and should never happen unless you want beast thief and thousands of complaints.

> >

> > Care to elaborate?

> >

> > Such as why Sword is so brokenly OP that some buffs would completely destroy all balance in the game?

>

> because sword 2 is an ultimate mobility tool. It compensate any below average damage, while sword damage is already actually ok.

> Increasing tactical strike damage by 100% would make it 2.0 coeff (backstab is 1,8 from behind) — in addition to all the effects it already provides (blind/daze, 10x vuln). Should i elaborate more on this?

 

Sword 2 is not so much better than the likes of Shadow Shot or Vault to necessitate Sword's abysmal damage (Which is also completely and totally irrelevant for PvE)

 

Increasing tactical strike damage by 100% would make it a 2.0 coefficient, yes. Backstab is 2.4 from behind though.

 

In addition to all the effects it already provides? Well there's a reason I suggested the damage only from the FRONT. So you choose Damage + Blind or Daze (Could even have the Vuln only on behind too so you opt for burst damage and soft CC or hard CC and set up for additional skills)

 

Adding more complexity to the weapon while also making it not trash for DE damage which relies on using stealth skills to dump Malice (It'd still be far lower damage than DE Backstab though, since DE Backstab gets damage per malice while DE Sword gets Endurance from malice)

 

> @"dDuff.3860" said:

> Infiltrator return is incredibly ok with being 15 second, because it provides you with the complexity — think of it —> using sword 2 on the far enemy into weaponswap into shadowstep to get a huge mobility dash. Then, after you get a decap/kill, you use shadowstep and sword return to get back to the point in the original fight <— my point it is a game complexity, which require you to plan your actions to get a big value from it. What you are asking for — just cheaper chasing tool, which sword kinda has enough. No idea what is your reasoning for it tbh.

 

My reasoning is that it feels hella clunky outside maybe a specific scenario where you want to swap to a better weapon set after engaging with Sword 2 and then still rely on Sword 2 to disengage.

 

15 seconds is a huge amount of time to wait to be able to re-engage again, especially within a Thief kit which is notable due to the lack of CD's on skills.

 

> @"dDuff.3860" said:

> Pistol Whip — is a stun, and evade, and damage. No game mode needs a spammability of such a strong skill. if anything, the damage, or stun duration can be increased to get pwhip more focused on something. 6 initiative is a big cost for something that provides big effect. And I'm very sad with february patch just destroying pwhip in all directions — damage, stun, cost.

 

Yeah, but the stun is really short. The evade is negligable with the amount of things that don't care about it (Also the ease at which the slow animation allows people to set wait to burst you when it ends) and the damage is a joke in all game modes, especially PvP/WvW where it should be renamed pistol tickle.

 

Reducing the cost of the skill by 1 initiative makes it at least a bit more usable, even if it still retains the nerfed damage and stun duration.

 

> @"dDuff.3860" said:

> Flanking strike — again, damage, unblockable, evade and setup for a bigger hit. What is your reasoning for this? to spam evades more? No pls, enough.

 

Not to spam evades more, but to be able to utilize Larcenous Strike without it being an objective DPS loss in PvE.

 

Hence why the later concession of init refund on hit.

 

> @"dDuff.3860" said:

> Larcenous strike — lol you ok dude? the larcenous strike has 1,6 power coefficient, unblockable, removes boons. +50% damage will get you to the 2,4 coeff (backstab is 1,8 from behind). making it 3 target aoe...

 

Yes, and it requires use of a 0.8/0.5 coefficient skill before hand, drastically lowering its burst and DPS (As well as telegraphing to any enemy "Hey, I only have like 2 seconds to use this skill, hopefully you don't have a functioning dodge button!")

 

Unblockable and Removes Boons are useless in PvE.

 

Again, Backstab is 2.4 coefficient from behind. While in PvP/WvW LS would only be 1.95 (Also again, only vs boonless targets)

 

I also conceded that there could be a competitive split. +50% damage boost in PvE while retaining a lower damage in PvP/WvW.

 

3 target AoE, yes, to make it somewhat more comparable to Staff, which can cleave people pretty nicely.

 

> @"dDuff.3860" said:

> So in the end you should care to elaborate what has brought you to such biased sword-buffs which are completely aren't needed and will just make thief stupidly OP. Sword is already fine and fun way to play the game on your own, capable of winning duels and being a liability in any match. Why it would need some adjustments, when there is stuff to get adressed first?

 

Because Sword is total garbage in PvE.

While in PvP/WvW it kind of pales in comparison to D/P or even condi builds with P/D.

Whilst also being pretty much just garbage for DE as a whole.

 

Also, other stuff that needs addressing doesn't prevent the ability to talk about stuff. Like, mentioning about Sword's lackluster performance doesn't necessarily negate discussions about D/D which is in a horrible state or other topics that you deem more important.