Cuks.8241 Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 I always take new lvl 80s in Hot to try them out. It's the most enjoyable content for me, there are always people on the maps and mobs don't die in 2 hits so you can actually get a feel for the profession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 > @"Healix.5819" said: > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > @"Healix.5819" said: > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > What am I not understanding here? If people didn't "buy the game" then they weren't plating anything else than core content, right? > > > > > > Yes. There was no major drive to buy HoT. > > > > There was as much of a "drive to buy it" as there is for nearly any other expansion for any other mmorpg. Why wouldn't there be? > > What did HoT offer? What did PoF offer? There's a wiki page for that, not sure I understand your point. >What does WoW offer? You tell me. >Besides more content, what strong drive is there to buy the expansions? Simply put, if you didn't leave core, what would make you want to buy each expansion? Again, there's a wiki page for that. Just pick whatever you want. I think it was well worth it and both HoT and PoF are made much better than what core offered. >Traditionally, expansions are required to keep up And you're trying to say that because there's no artificial progression by raising level cap and endorsing completely redundant gear treadmill... that it makes expansions not worth getting? If that's your actual opinion about expansions then that's just sad. And also false. If raising level cap and perpetuating unending gear treadmill is what drives your will to play the game then you don't like good games, you like feeding your weird addiction. >makes old content accessible ...you need core to be EVEN MORE accessible? Like clearing it by holding "1" still isn't accessible enough? We need to outgear and outlevel that as well? Oof. (and yes, the system when you delevel to fit the content more closely IS a great idea, I'm glad it's here) >generally offers new toys for everyone play with. HoT and PoF both offered/offer "new toys for everyone to play with", what exactly are you even talking about right now? >HoT offered nothing truly important; elites weren't for everyone. That's just false. ...and I'm still waiting for you to explain what is "the major drive to buy an expansion for you". Because increasing level cap and gear treadmill definitely isn't that. >PoF forever changed the game with mounts. That's obvious and this is exactly why HoT is a free addition to PoF now, isn't it? Saying HoT didn't add/change anything is just a lie and it comes from you looking at the game AFTER a whole lot of content got added. Look at it from the perspective of the core game, which is what we had at the moment HoT was available and maybe you'll see that you're just wrong here. > > > To clarify, in the same time span, PoF made more, a lot more if you normalize it (I didn't). I was being generous to HoT and included the influx from its nearly year-long advertising campaign, which makes both roughly equal. After HoT's ~2 year mark, PoF continued on to have higher sales that are still strong today. They wouldn't have been able to pull off 4 years without an expansion back in 2015, or shift focus to side projects, so blame PoF for that. > > > > Any sources? > > For calculations? Take a quick glance at the sales. For dates - HoT was announced in 1Q15, core stopped being sold in 2Q15, went free in 3Q15 and HoT launched in 4Q15 - PoF launched in the last week on 3Q17. > > While here, wonder why 2019 was the weakest year to date? It was their first year of having only normal sales. 2020 is going to have the same problem, while 2021 will be up again due to Cantha. Not much of a difference, considering players naturally lose the interest with the game over the years, which you conviniently avoid trying to blame the first expansion. > > That said, I'm not sure how any of this is relevant to the thread that claims "HoT is too hard". > > It's not. I'm simply answering questions. Ah. That's great -I thought it's somehow supposed to be an arugment supporting what some people in this thread say about HoT. Guess I'll stop here then. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliamRationem.5172 Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > @"Linken.6345" said: > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > @"Healix.5819" said: > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > According to Ncsoft **the reason lies in the conversion from play for free to the paid expansion. This conversion rate is not as high as expected/hoped by NCsoft**. The amount of gem sales and item sales versus active players is ok. “ but it is more the issue of the conversion to the paid expansion pack that we have not seen the level (of sales) we have hoped > > > > > > > > > > > > They blame the conversion rate for their lack of revenue in Q4 2015, which means the core game going free hurt the game's revenue as I was saying all along. It's up to the CORE game to make conversions, not HOT. > > > > > > > > > > And why weren't people buying the game? Of course making it free would lower sales, but HoT was expected to sell a lot more than that. Who could have predicted that the core game would end up selling better. > > > > > > > > > > 2 million people joined between going free and HoT. 20% of that would have met expectations. > > > > > > > > > > > This reinforced my earlier argument about casual players and that the two phrases are mutually exclusive: > > > > > > Casuals pay the bills > > > > > > Casuals left due to HOT > > > > > > These two cannot be accurate at the same time, as I was saying all along, thanks for proving it. Saving those links. > > > > > > > > > > Both are true, unless you're trying to say 100% of casuals quit - only some would have, while others had no problem and some never left core. Casuals make up the majority, and as a whole they pay the bills, but most don't spend anything and the 1% whales can easily rival them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Judging by the revenue drop when they made HOT free, it wasn't selling badly, they lost almost 1/3 of their revenue in Q4 2019, from 15k to 11k, when HOT went free. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It went back up to what it was. > > > > > > > > > > > > Expansion announcements do that. > > > > > > > > > > A simple acknowledgement and image of Cantha ended up being bigger than HoT's big event and rivaled PoF's pre-purchases. > > > > > > > > > > > > That was their reason for bundling it, but if HoT was actually selling well enough to cause a 25% drop in sales, they could have waited a lot longer and made a lot more off of Steam. > > > > > > > > > > > > They weren't going to launch on Steam at that point. Remember when Icebrood Saga launched they were saying how they are fully committed to it, no expansions on the horizon. They expected the Icebrood Saga to be expansion-level revenue. They made HOT free so it would be easier for new players to join the Icebrood Saga. It obviously didn't work very well. > > > > > > > > > > Steam was just a bonus. They would have known exactly what HoT was making at the time. The 25% drop is 3.2 million USD, which is nearly double the units HoT was selling after launch. > > > > > > > > Who could have predicted that an expansion wouldn't sell as many copies as an original release? Serious question here: Has that ever been a thing for any game? Further, they waited 3 years to release that expansion while providing no proper PvE endgame with which to retain long-term players. Who with any sense would have expected the expansion to sell well when you basically murder your own product with poor decisions like that? > > > > > > the "long term" players had already FINISHED THE GAME. THEY HAD GOTTEN, WHAT THEY PAID FOR. > > > listening to them is simply wrong on every level. and only a total noob would ever log into a new mmo for "endgame" content > > > if it even exists, then it isnt properly optimized yet > > > > You dont finish mmorpgs they are not single player games and are instead endlessly expanded upon. > > Untill they are not profitable anymore and slowly go into oblivion. > > yep, but that wasnt the issue. if they have played all the content the game offers, then they have received more than enough. > we are talking many hours of entertainment for a very low price. giving them even more is only going to hurt in the long run. > its not like we havent seen this development before. Giving the people who pay to keep the game alive more for their money is only going to hurt in the long run. I don't know about you guys, but I'm convinced this guy knows what he's talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battledrone.8315 Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > @"Linken.6345" said: > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > > @"Healix.5819" said: > > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > > According to Ncsoft **the reason lies in the conversion from play for free to the paid expansion. This conversion rate is not as high as expected/hoped by NCsoft**. The amount of gem sales and item sales versus active players is ok. “ but it is more the issue of the conversion to the paid expansion pack that we have not seen the level (of sales) we have hoped > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They blame the conversion rate for their lack of revenue in Q4 2015, which means the core game going free hurt the game's revenue as I was saying all along. It's up to the CORE game to make conversions, not HOT. > > > > > > > > > > > > And why weren't people buying the game? Of course making it free would lower sales, but HoT was expected to sell a lot more than that. Who could have predicted that the core game would end up selling better. > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 million people joined between going free and HoT. 20% of that would have met expectations. > > > > > > > > > > > > > This reinforced my earlier argument about casual players and that the two phrases are mutually exclusive: > > > > > > > Casuals pay the bills > > > > > > > Casuals left due to HOT > > > > > > > These two cannot be accurate at the same time, as I was saying all along, thanks for proving it. Saving those links. > > > > > > > > > > > > Both are true, unless you're trying to say 100% of casuals quit - only some would have, while others had no problem and some never left core. Casuals make up the majority, and as a whole they pay the bills, but most don't spend anything and the 1% whales can easily rival them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Judging by the revenue drop when they made HOT free, it wasn't selling badly, they lost almost 1/3 of their revenue in Q4 2019, from 15k to 11k, when HOT went free. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It went back up to what it was. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Expansion announcements do that. > > > > > > > > > > > > A simple acknowledgement and image of Cantha ended up being bigger than HoT's big event and rivaled PoF's pre-purchases. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That was their reason for bundling it, but if HoT was actually selling well enough to cause a 25% drop in sales, they could have waited a lot longer and made a lot more off of Steam. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They weren't going to launch on Steam at that point. Remember when Icebrood Saga launched they were saying how they are fully committed to it, no expansions on the horizon. They expected the Icebrood Saga to be expansion-level revenue. They made HOT free so it would be easier for new players to join the Icebrood Saga. It obviously didn't work very well. > > > > > > > > > > > > Steam was just a bonus. They would have known exactly what HoT was making at the time. The 25% drop is 3.2 million USD, which is nearly double the units HoT was selling after launch. > > > > > > > > > > Who could have predicted that an expansion wouldn't sell as many copies as an original release? Serious question here: Has that ever been a thing for any game? Further, they waited 3 years to release that expansion while providing no proper PvE endgame with which to retain long-term players. Who with any sense would have expected the expansion to sell well when you basically murder your own product with poor decisions like that? > > > > > > > > the "long term" players had already FINISHED THE GAME. THEY HAD GOTTEN, WHAT THEY PAID FOR. > > > > listening to them is simply wrong on every level. and only a total noob would ever log into a new mmo for "endgame" content > > > > if it even exists, then it isnt properly optimized yet > > > > > > You dont finish mmorpgs they are not single player games and are instead endlessly expanded upon. > > > Untill they are not profitable anymore and slowly go into oblivion. > > > > yep, but that wasnt the issue. if they have played all the content the game offers, then they have received more than enough. > > we are talking many hours of entertainment for a very low price. giving them even more is only going to hurt in the long run. > > its not like we havent seen this development before. > > Giving the people who pay to keep the game alive more for their money is only going to hurt in the long run. I don't know about you guys, but I'm convinced this guy knows what he's talking about. i have tried something between 100 and 200 mmos now, been playing the genre since 2004. i have seen the same thing happen too many times now. the games always end up as niche titles with a handful of devs. whaling is quite effective, but it doesnt generate the publicity that a really big mmo does. giving people something in return for their money is good business indeed. but that would mean ALL people, not just the same handful cantha will prolly have at least 2 lowbie zones, perhaps even more. have fun with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battledrone.8315 Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 > @"Sir Alymer.3406" said: > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > @"Sir Alymer.3406" said: > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > nope, orr has to go from the main storyline too, if they ever want it to be truly casual. they have already nerfed it twice, so the mobs arent > > > > the big issue anymore, it is the maps and the content. > > > > they can make hard content if they want, i am even willing to pay my share of it. > > > > but dont expect me to pay unless they make some new casual content too > > > > and LW is not casual. not at all. > > > > > > Uh, how is LW not casual when it's literally impossible to fail the new metas on the new maps and literally impossible to fail in the story if you pay any amount of attention? > > > > > not true, it is more casual though. you still have all the previous LWS before that. and i dont care about metas anyway > > it is also a new form of LW, the reduction in difficulty is prolly the only reason for the name change > > Look, I was super casual when season 2 came out. (I used a shout heals warrior in full clerics, then a interrupt warrior with hammer/greatsword in cavalier's when unsuspecting foe was still a thing.) I was a bit less casual when season 3 came out (Utilizing meta builds and rotations) and my skill basically plateaued for a while there so it was about the same in Season 4 as I stopped caring about personal improvement. The only time I had any sort of problem with any of the content was going after the achievements and that's mostly because they require you to do very specific things or actually be good at fighting a boss (Kill x in 40 seconds or avoid this attack from this boss). None of the content outside of the achievements has actually been difficult or put up a challenge against the skillset one would develop by doing Fractal/Raid CMs, Raids, Strikes, Fractals, or Dungeons (pre HoT). It's literally impossible to fail any of the personal story. There's no failure state, you retry from checkpoint and go again. so i just have to dump the build, that i know how to use, and grind lots of gold, so i can get new runes for the new build, that i dont know anything about? yea, thats totally casual, i am sure that people will flock to this new and stunning approach. its not like people got attached to their playstyle after only 80 lvls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliamRationem.5172 Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > @"Linken.6345" said: > > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > > > @"Healix.5819" said: > > > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > > > According to Ncsoft **the reason lies in the conversion from play for free to the paid expansion. This conversion rate is not as high as expected/hoped by NCsoft**. The amount of gem sales and item sales versus active players is ok. “ but it is more the issue of the conversion to the paid expansion pack that we have not seen the level (of sales) we have hoped > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They blame the conversion rate for their lack of revenue in Q4 2015, which means the core game going free hurt the game's revenue as I was saying all along. It's up to the CORE game to make conversions, not HOT. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And why weren't people buying the game? Of course making it free would lower sales, but HoT was expected to sell a lot more than that. Who could have predicted that the core game would end up selling better. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 million people joined between going free and HoT. 20% of that would have met expectations. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This reinforced my earlier argument about casual players and that the two phrases are mutually exclusive: > > > > > > > > Casuals pay the bills > > > > > > > > Casuals left due to HOT > > > > > > > > These two cannot be accurate at the same time, as I was saying all along, thanks for proving it. Saving those links. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both are true, unless you're trying to say 100% of casuals quit - only some would have, while others had no problem and some never left core. Casuals make up the majority, and as a whole they pay the bills, but most don't spend anything and the 1% whales can easily rival them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Judging by the revenue drop when they made HOT free, it wasn't selling badly, they lost almost 1/3 of their revenue in Q4 2019, from 15k to 11k, when HOT went free. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It went back up to what it was. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Expansion announcements do that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A simple acknowledgement and image of Cantha ended up being bigger than HoT's big event and rivaled PoF's pre-purchases. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That was their reason for bundling it, but if HoT was actually selling well enough to cause a 25% drop in sales, they could have waited a lot longer and made a lot more off of Steam. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They weren't going to launch on Steam at that point. Remember when Icebrood Saga launched they were saying how they are fully committed to it, no expansions on the horizon. They expected the Icebrood Saga to be expansion-level revenue. They made HOT free so it would be easier for new players to join the Icebrood Saga. It obviously didn't work very well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steam was just a bonus. They would have known exactly what HoT was making at the time. The 25% drop is 3.2 million USD, which is nearly double the units HoT was selling after launch. > > > > > > > > > > > > Who could have predicted that an expansion wouldn't sell as many copies as an original release? Serious question here: Has that ever been a thing for any game? Further, they waited 3 years to release that expansion while providing no proper PvE endgame with which to retain long-term players. Who with any sense would have expected the expansion to sell well when you basically murder your own product with poor decisions like that? > > > > > > > > > > the "long term" players had already FINISHED THE GAME. THEY HAD GOTTEN, WHAT THEY PAID FOR. > > > > > listening to them is simply wrong on every level. and only a total noob would ever log into a new mmo for "endgame" content > > > > > if it even exists, then it isnt properly optimized yet > > > > > > > > You dont finish mmorpgs they are not single player games and are instead endlessly expanded upon. > > > > Untill they are not profitable anymore and slowly go into oblivion. > > > > > > yep, but that wasnt the issue. if they have played all the content the game offers, then they have received more than enough. > > > we are talking many hours of entertainment for a very low price. giving them even more is only going to hurt in the long run. > > > its not like we havent seen this development before. > > > > Giving the people who pay to keep the game alive more for their money is only going to hurt in the long run. I don't know about you guys, but I'm convinced this guy knows what he's talking about. > > i have tried something between 100 and 200 mmos now, been playing the genre since 2004. i have seen the same thing happen too many times now. > the games always end up as niche titles with a handful of devs. whaling is quite effective, but it doesnt generate the publicity that a really big mmo does. > giving people something in return for their money is good business indeed. but that would mean ALL people, not just the same handful > cantha will prolly have at least 2 lowbie zones, perhaps even more. have fun with that. Perhaps players who play hundreds of MMOs and thus don't have time to appreciate content outside of the starter area would enjoy that, but people who actually play GW2 wouldn't. That's why we've already had two expansions which didn't see fit to expand upon the industry's biggest starter area: Core Tyria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Alymer.3406 Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > @"Sir Alymer.3406" said: > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > @"Sir Alymer.3406" said: > > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > nope, orr has to go from the main storyline too, if they ever want it to be truly casual. they have already nerfed it twice, so the mobs arent > > > > > the big issue anymore, it is the maps and the content. > > > > > they can make hard content if they want, i am even willing to pay my share of it. > > > > > but dont expect me to pay unless they make some new casual content too > > > > > and LW is not casual. not at all. > > > > > > > > Uh, how is LW not casual when it's literally impossible to fail the new metas on the new maps and literally impossible to fail in the story if you pay any amount of attention? > > > > > > > not true, it is more casual though. you still have all the previous LWS before that. and i dont care about metas anyway > > > it is also a new form of LW, the reduction in difficulty is prolly the only reason for the name change > > > > Look, I was super casual when season 2 came out. (I used a shout heals warrior in full clerics, then a interrupt warrior with hammer/greatsword in cavalier's when unsuspecting foe was still a thing.) I was a bit less casual when season 3 came out (Utilizing meta builds and rotations) and my skill basically plateaued for a while there so it was about the same in Season 4 as I stopped caring about personal improvement. The only time I had any sort of problem with any of the content was going after the achievements and that's mostly because they require you to do very specific things or actually be good at fighting a boss (Kill x in 40 seconds or avoid this attack from this boss). None of the content outside of the achievements has actually been difficult or put up a challenge against the skillset one would develop by doing Fractal/Raid CMs, Raids, Strikes, Fractals, or Dungeons (pre HoT). It's literally impossible to fail any of the personal story. There's no failure state, you retry from checkpoint and go again. > > so i just have to dump the build, that i know how to use, and grind lots of gold, so i can get new runes for the new build, that i dont know anything about? > yea, thats totally casual, i am sure that people will flock to this new and stunning approach. its not like people got attached to their playstyle after only 80 lvls Such straw, very man. No. I didn't have trouble with my shout heals warrior. I didn't have trouble with my interrupt warrior. If all you gleamed from what I said here is "PlAy MeTa" Then you're blind to your own toxicity and are trying, either on purpose or otherwise, to undermine my argument with such things. Now, when I said > The only time I had any sort of problem with any of the content was going after the achievements and that's mostly because they require you to do very specific things or actually be good at fighting a boss (Kill x in 40 seconds or avoid this attack from this boss). I meant it from when Season 2 came out until today. The meaning behind this is, so long as you have a consistent, cohesive build that does something well and has traits selected that give good synergy with what it does, then this game is going to be pretty easy outside of endgame group content. There's no consequence for changing traits on your build so they make more sense. You wouldn't take a sword cooldown trait if it didn't provide anything beneficial to your build because you use maces and axes, would you? Core stat Exotics are also pretty cheap to come across if you're wanting to try a different build but not commit to it. There's also a plethora of stat-selectable armor that's relatively easy to get for the more niche stat sets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante.1508 Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said: > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > @"Atomos.7593" said: > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > @"Atomos.7593" said: > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > They blame the conversion rate for their lack of revenue in Q4 2015, which means the core game going free hurt the game's revenue as I was saying all along. It's up to the CORE game to make conversions, not HOT. Or as I said in a previous post: > > > > > > A player that leaves right after the tutorial, isn't because of HOT > > > > > > A player that leaves before reaching level 50, isn't because of HOT > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, worth noting that in both cases they say gem store sales are fine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think that this is a good point. Personally, I think that the core game going free was a mistake because overall the quality of it was not that great imo. I'm glad I decided to stick around and give HoT a chance because I found it much more replayable. > > > > > > > > this doesnt make sense, if core was bad, going F2P should had been done sooner. they didnt because it was still selling. > > > > and if REPLAYABILTY was the big seller, then hot should had done far better, than it actually did > > > > > > Compared to other MMOs that I have played core did actually go f2p very soon. You can't measure replayability simply by taking sales at a point in time soon after release. That is in fact the opposite of measuring any replayability. > > > > tell that to swtor. and tera. an teso. and sto. and prolly a bunch of other mmos, that i didnt play. > > and if the core game was so replayable, how would you ever sell any expansions? > > OTOH, if hot had the replay value, that you think, it would had done far better. > > fact is, that only a small fraction of players ever FINISHED it. that is not reply value, that is simply a bad product for the consumers it was sold to > > doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out, that those customers will be less than pleased with the company, that made it > > and when you have several millions of disappointed customers, your company is going to nowhere pretty fast > > So if anet removed all content after orr it would be perfect for you? And even nerfed orr so no difficulty of any form could exist? It would be for me.. I regret buying all the expacs and living stories.. Nothing but resource grinds, mobile mechanics and over tooled game play. Even the stories weren't that great.. > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > @"WorldofBay.8160" said: > > > @"Healix.5819" said: > > > Is it not common knowledge? That's how WoW started - they made MMOs accessible, beginning the rise of MMOs. > > > > WHAT? > > > > guild wars 2 owner NCSoft made MMOs rise far earlier than WoW with the game Lineage. EverQuest and Ultima Online also were far earlier > > but none of them had over 10 mio players, and became a social phenomenon. wow made them rich AND funded the next 2 games, > starcraft 2 and overwatch. they even had the money to scrap a 8 year project, because it wasnt "good enough" > 10 mio subs is roughly 100 mio clams EVERY MONTH. no wonder it made all the other companies rally around the mmo banner Actually Lineage and Lineage 2 were massive.. They were effectively the Asian versions of WoW. To date, the game has been played by more than 14 million users, most of whom are based in Asia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lineage_II https://sensortower.com/blog/lineage-mobile-games-revenue-4-billion https://venturebeat.com/2018/12/09/how-lineage-2-revolution-topped-30-million-global-players/ Lineage is massive.. I personally was playing Anarchy Online before WoW even existed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliamRationem.5172 Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > core is the bait to lure new players in, nothing more. a job it has done well, despite its flaws. > > > > Yes it did a good job in the first 4 months. After that its job became less and less worthy. > > > > > expansions have to sell themselves, based on their own strengths. > > > > Expansions sell to players that are finished with the core experience, players that haven't finished the core, or quit very early, aren't likely to buy an expansion. Some games solve this issue by streamlining their original experience and making it much faster, so players can reach the good content of the expansion sooner. Guild Wars 2 didn't do anything of the sort. > > > > > and that is where the problem is: they have so litte in common with core > > > > First, for someone that played this game for the 3 years between release and the launch of the expansion they are very similar, in fact outside the confusing three dimensional map there is very little in terms of challenge/difficulty in HOT that players didn't face during S1 and S2, it was more of a natural progression. Sure those that quit the game early and then came back 3 years later expecting the expansion to be more like the original game, bypassing 3 full years of progress, would say that there is little in common with core. But the players that actually played the game? Not so much. > > > > > that they dont appeal to most of the players there > > > > Actually NCsoft didn't tell us that "core players converting to HOT were less than expected", they said "FREE players converting to HOT were less than expected", there is a vast difference between the two phrases. The first phrase would indicate the expansion didn't sell well among the **current** players, those who stayed with the game after S1/S2, the most loyal customers of Arenanet. But they didn't say that, meaning the current player conversion to HOT wasn't unexpected. The problem was with FREE players not converting > > > > > mmos normally try to unite the players, designing it to be split this way was a big mistake. > > > > There was no split though. HOT was the natural progression after S1 and S2. It only felt as a split to those who quit the game after they reached Orr, ignored three full years of content releases, then came back for the expansion expecting more of the original Core game. > > games drop down the list with their age, this is nothing new. AFAIK they had roughly 50k box sales every month right before F2P. > that is a solid number, considering the age, and the competition back then > of course the expansions dont sell well, since they are so different from the core game > casual gamer: this is great, i cant wait for the expansions. but he doesnt get them , because they dont exist. no sale > hardcore gamer: i have to slug through 80 levels of this trash to get to the good parts? back to the old mmo. no sale More like... Casual gamer: This is great! In the expansions there is tons of content that is easily accessible and doesn't require practicing with a premade group! Hardcore gamer: There are raids in GW2 PvE now? Cool! A Potato: I'ma go play Hello Kitty Island Adventure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Alymer.3406 Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 I grew up on old games that'd punish you horribly for making stupid mistakes. Going back to htem, even as an adult, they're rather crap with their difficulty. It's an apt comparison when comparing HoT to Dark Souls as both have an evolution of game mechanics and force you to adapt to overcome the series of challenges presented to you. It's also not supposed to be a power fantasy. You had that going after Zhaitan. Here, Mordy was ready, blew up the fleet, and now you, the commander, have to pick up the pieces, learn a few new tricks (Elite specs, masteries), gain new allies (Itzel, Exalted), and reforge old ones with the remaining Pact Members. The story is a bit rushed, but the actual map instances feel great. There's an emphasis on group content and learning what enemies can do, adapting skills and even builds in some cases, to the scenario you face to overcome the challenge. HoT is difficult but fair. Especially when ANet changed the maps a bit to fit a little better with the core of GW2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > @"Sir Alymer.3406" said: > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > @"Sir Alymer.3406" said: > > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > nope, orr has to go from the main storyline too, if they ever want it to be truly casual. they have already nerfed it twice, so the mobs arent > > > > > the big issue anymore, it is the maps and the content. > > > > > they can make hard content if they want, i am even willing to pay my share of it. > > > > > but dont expect me to pay unless they make some new casual content too > > > > > and LW is not casual. not at all. > > > > > > > > Uh, how is LW not casual when it's literally impossible to fail the new metas on the new maps and literally impossible to fail in the story if you pay any amount of attention? > > > > > > > not true, it is more casual though. you still have all the previous LWS before that. and i dont care about metas anyway > > > it is also a new form of LW, the reduction in difficulty is prolly the only reason for the name change > > > > Look, I was super casual when season 2 came out. (I used a shout heals warrior in full clerics, then a interrupt warrior with hammer/greatsword in cavalier's when unsuspecting foe was still a thing.) I was a bit less casual when season 3 came out (Utilizing meta builds and rotations) and my skill basically plateaued for a while there so it was about the same in Season 4 as I stopped caring about personal improvement. The only time I had any sort of problem with any of the content was going after the achievements and that's mostly because they require you to do very specific things or actually be good at fighting a boss (Kill x in 40 seconds or avoid this attack from this boss). None of the content outside of the achievements has actually been difficult or put up a challenge against the skillset one would develop by doing Fractal/Raid CMs, Raids, Strikes, Fractals, or Dungeons (pre HoT). It's literally impossible to fail any of the personal story. There's no failure state, you retry from checkpoint and go again. > > so i just have to dump the build, that i know how to use, and grind lots of gold, so i can get new runes for the new build, that i dont know anything about? > yea, thats totally casual, i am sure that people will flock to this new and stunning approach. its not like people got attached to their playstyle after only 80 lvls Which great build that you've learned playing over extended period of time ("that you know how to use") did you have to dump because it wasn't good enough for expansions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moyayuki.3619 Posted October 6, 2020 Share Posted October 6, 2020 Even today I still hate HoT's maps, story, and characters with a fiery passion (I still will never forgive ANet for making my commander distrust Caithe and treat her like shit), but I personally can't compare it with Dark Souls. With Dark Souls, I know the games are supposed to be hard. But with HoT, especially when it first came out, its difficulty was a slap to the face. The difficulty frustrated me, because I went into GW2 and got to max level having specific ideas in place on how the game played. Adding new skills, professions, and gimmicks is to be expected for an MMO expac, but those mobs...those mobs in HoT still make me want to rage, on top of how convoluted the maps are. Yeah, I consider myself a casual player because I don't go into WvW or PvP, and aren't after the best end-game stuff, but I can still play Dark Souls. But HoT to me still is a frustrating mess, because I got into GW2 with certain expectations on how I should feel playing the game. I did get partway through PoF on one of my toons, and I certainly prefer it over HoT. The desert setting is more enjoyable for me, at any rate, even from a purely aesthetic point of view. (FYI, I also play World of Warcraft, and I must say I hate how much they stripped away from classes and difficulty, and made most mobs like tissue paper. My dislike of the "dumbing down" of WoW is as strong as my dislike of how stupidly hard ANet made GW2 with the HoT expansion.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Alymer.3406 Posted October 6, 2020 Share Posted October 6, 2020 > @"Moyayuki.3619" said: > I personally can't compare it with Dark Souls. With Dark Souls, I know the games are supposed to be hard. But with HoT, especially when it first came out, its difficulty was a slap to the face. The difficulty frustrated me, because I went into GW2 and got to max level having specific ideas in place on how the game played. Adding new skills, professions, and gimmicks is to be expected for an MMO expac, but those mobs...those mobs in HoT still make me want to rage, on top of how convoluted the maps are. From Core to HoT, yeah. It's not really so much a step up as a leap forwards. It still fairly uses the game mechanics, though, so HoT just forces people to learn, adapt, and overcome. The difficulty between the two current expacs should have been reversed, if I'm honest. PoF is easier than HoT while being more difficult than Core, but if you do Core > Pof > HoT for difficulty, the story gets confused. The mobs actually fight back, they have counterplay (however simple it is now-a-days) and some form of tactics or mechanics that, once you learn, you can use to exploit the mob and kill it even easier. You can bait out snipers to dodge. You can lay down aoes to destroy pocket raptors. Reflect skills shut down a few of the enemies, and the resistance boon stops all of the condition enemies as not many, if any, mobs in HoT have boon rip/corruption. > Yeah, I consider myself a casual player because I don't go into WvW or PvP, and aren't after the best end-game stuff, but I can still play Dark Souls. But HoT to me still is a frustrating mess, because I got into GW2 with certain expectations on how I should feel playing the game. I did get partway through PoF on one of my toons, and I certainly prefer it over HoT. The desert setting is more enjoyable for me, at any rate, even from a purely aesthetic point of view. > > (FYI, I also play World of Warcraft, and I must say I hate how much they stripped away from classes and difficulty, and made most mobs like tissue paper. My dislike of the "dumbing down" of WoW is as strong as my dislike of how stupidly hard ANet made GW2 with the HoT expansion.) I will agree with you here; Core GW2 doesn't really do anything to prepare the player for HoT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battledrone.8315 Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > @"Linken.6345" said: > > > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > > > > @"Healix.5819" said: > > > > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > > > > According to Ncsoft **the reason lies in the conversion from play for free to the paid expansion. This conversion rate is not as high as expected/hoped by NCsoft**. The amount of gem sales and item sales versus active players is ok. “ but it is more the issue of the conversion to the paid expansion pack that we have not seen the level (of sales) we have hoped > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They blame the conversion rate for their lack of revenue in Q4 2015, which means the core game going free hurt the game's revenue as I was saying all along. It's up to the CORE game to make conversions, not HOT. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And why weren't people buying the game? Of course making it free would lower sales, but HoT was expected to sell a lot more than that. Who could have predicted that the core game would end up selling better. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 million people joined between going free and HoT. 20% of that would have met expectations. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This reinforced my earlier argument about casual players and that the two phrases are mutually exclusive: > > > > > > > > > Casuals pay the bills > > > > > > > > > Casuals left due to HOT > > > > > > > > > These two cannot be accurate at the same time, as I was saying all along, thanks for proving it. Saving those links. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both are true, unless you're trying to say 100% of casuals quit - only some would have, while others had no problem and some never left core. Casuals make up the majority, and as a whole they pay the bills, but most don't spend anything and the 1% whales can easily rival them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Judging by the revenue drop when they made HOT free, it wasn't selling badly, they lost almost 1/3 of their revenue in Q4 2019, from 15k to 11k, when HOT went free. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It went back up to what it was. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Expansion announcements do that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A simple acknowledgement and image of Cantha ended up being bigger than HoT's big event and rivaled PoF's pre-purchases. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That was their reason for bundling it, but if HoT was actually selling well enough to cause a 25% drop in sales, they could have waited a lot longer and made a lot more off of Steam. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They weren't going to launch on Steam at that point. Remember when Icebrood Saga launched they were saying how they are fully committed to it, no expansions on the horizon. They expected the Icebrood Saga to be expansion-level revenue. They made HOT free so it would be easier for new players to join the Icebrood Saga. It obviously didn't work very well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steam was just a bonus. They would have known exactly what HoT was making at the time. The 25% drop is 3.2 million USD, which is nearly double the units HoT was selling after launch. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Who could have predicted that an expansion wouldn't sell as many copies as an original release? Serious question here: Has that ever been a thing for any game? Further, they waited 3 years to release that expansion while providing no proper PvE endgame with which to retain long-term players. Who with any sense would have expected the expansion to sell well when you basically murder your own product with poor decisions like that? > > > > > > > > > > > > the "long term" players had already FINISHED THE GAME. THEY HAD GOTTEN, WHAT THEY PAID FOR. > > > > > > listening to them is simply wrong on every level. and only a total noob would ever log into a new mmo for "endgame" content > > > > > > if it even exists, then it isnt properly optimized yet > > > > > > > > > > You dont finish mmorpgs they are not single player games and are instead endlessly expanded upon. > > > > > Untill they are not profitable anymore and slowly go into oblivion. > > > > > > > > yep, but that wasnt the issue. if they have played all the content the game offers, then they have received more than enough. > > > > we are talking many hours of entertainment for a very low price. giving them even more is only going to hurt in the long run. > > > > its not like we havent seen this development before. > > > > > > Giving the people who pay to keep the game alive more for their money is only going to hurt in the long run. I don't know about you guys, but I'm convinced this guy knows what he's talking about. > > > > i have tried something between 100 and 200 mmos now, been playing the genre since 2004. i have seen the same thing happen too many times now. > > the games always end up as niche titles with a handful of devs. whaling is quite effective, but it doesnt generate the publicity that a really big mmo does. > > giving people something in return for their money is good business indeed. but that would mean ALL people, not just the same handful > > cantha will prolly have at least 2 lowbie zones, perhaps even more. have fun with that. > > Perhaps players who play hundreds of MMOs and thus don't have time to appreciate content outside of the starter area would enjoy that, but people who actually play GW2 wouldn't. That's why we've already had two expansions which didn't see fit to expand upon the industry's biggest starter area: Core Tyria. and they performed so well, that they hardly had to fire anyone. according to industy rumours, theyre down to 600k players now. most mmos are so "special" that i dont even finish the newbie zone before uninstalling . we can agree, that the expansions are VERY different from the core game though. and that is the problem, theyre not expansions to the game, that was before Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battledrone.8315 Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > core is the bait to lure new players in, nothing more. a job it has done well, despite its flaws. > > > > > > Yes it did a good job in the first 4 months. After that its job became less and less worthy. > > > > > > > expansions have to sell themselves, based on their own strengths. > > > > > > Expansions sell to players that are finished with the core experience, players that haven't finished the core, or quit very early, aren't likely to buy an expansion. Some games solve this issue by streamlining their original experience and making it much faster, so players can reach the good content of the expansion sooner. Guild Wars 2 didn't do anything of the sort. > > > > > > > and that is where the problem is: they have so litte in common with core > > > > > > First, for someone that played this game for the 3 years between release and the launch of the expansion they are very similar, in fact outside the confusing three dimensional map there is very little in terms of challenge/difficulty in HOT that players didn't face during S1 and S2, it was more of a natural progression. Sure those that quit the game early and then came back 3 years later expecting the expansion to be more like the original game, bypassing 3 full years of progress, would say that there is little in common with core. But the players that actually played the game? Not so much. > > > > > > > that they dont appeal to most of the players there > > > > > > Actually NCsoft didn't tell us that "core players converting to HOT were less than expected", they said "FREE players converting to HOT were less than expected", there is a vast difference between the two phrases. The first phrase would indicate the expansion didn't sell well among the **current** players, those who stayed with the game after S1/S2, the most loyal customers of Arenanet. But they didn't say that, meaning the current player conversion to HOT wasn't unexpected. The problem was with FREE players not converting > > > > > > > mmos normally try to unite the players, designing it to be split this way was a big mistake. > > > > > > There was no split though. HOT was the natural progression after S1 and S2. It only felt as a split to those who quit the game after they reached Orr, ignored three full years of content releases, then came back for the expansion expecting more of the original Core game. > > > > games drop down the list with their age, this is nothing new. AFAIK they had roughly 50k box sales every month right before F2P. > > that is a solid number, considering the age, and the competition back then > > of course the expansions dont sell well, since they are so different from the core game > > casual gamer: this is great, i cant wait for the expansions. but he doesnt get them , because they dont exist. no sale > > hardcore gamer: i have to slug through 80 levels of this trash to get to the good parts? back to the old mmo. no sale > > More like... > > Casual gamer: This is great! In the expansions there is tons of content that is easily accessible and doesn't require practicing with a premade group! > Hardcore gamer: There are raids in GW2 PvE now? Cool! > A Potato: I'ma go play Hello Kitty Island Adventure. yep. all 200k casual players, that the game stilll had, finished the expansions. sto was down to 200k at one point, that made them sell out to perfect world. CoX had more, when they shut that down. co is at roughly 300k, and they are on life support. numbers like that are practically devastating for a big mmo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > More like... > > > > Casual gamer: This is great! In the expansions there is tons of content that is easily accessible and doesn't require practicing with a premade group! > > Hardcore gamer: There are raids in GW2 PvE now? Cool! > > A Potato: I'ma go play Hello Kitty Island Adventure. > > yep. all 200k casual players, that the game stilll had, finished the expansions. sto was down to 200k at one point, that made them sell out to > perfect world. CoX had more, when they shut that down. co is at roughly 300k, and they are on life support. > numbers like that are practically devastating for a big mmo I'd like to see where you get your information about player numbers. While waiting for your links confirming player numbers, let's go over data that we DO have, the revenue numbers. The last reported revenue of CoX was 2855 Million KrW in Q2 2012. The game's revenue was added to the "other" category in Q3 and Q4 2012 (until the shut down). I find it curious that you claim CoX had more than 200k players with such low revenue numbers. That's 1/4th of what Guild Wars 2 made (11331) in its worst quarter (Q4 2019). For reference, Wildstar's last reported revenue result was in Q2 2016 and was at 1097. Guild Wars 2 in its worst quarter yet made more money than CoX or Wildstar made in one full year. We are a very long way from "devastating" numbers or life support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battledrone.8315 Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 > @"Sir Alymer.3406" said: > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > @"Sir Alymer.3406" said: > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > @"Sir Alymer.3406" said: > > > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > > nope, orr has to go from the main storyline too, if they ever want it to be truly casual. they have already nerfed it twice, so the mobs arent > > > > > > the big issue anymore, it is the maps and the content. > > > > > > they can make hard content if they want, i am even willing to pay my share of it. > > > > > > but dont expect me to pay unless they make some new casual content too > > > > > > and LW is not casual. not at all. > > > > > > > > > > Uh, how is LW not casual when it's literally impossible to fail the new metas on the new maps and literally impossible to fail in the story if you pay any amount of attention? > > > > > > > > > not true, it is more casual though. you still have all the previous LWS before that. and i dont care about metas anyway > > > > it is also a new form of LW, the reduction in difficulty is prolly the only reason for the name change > > > > > > Look, I was super casual when season 2 came out. (I used a shout heals warrior in full clerics, then a interrupt warrior with hammer/greatsword in cavalier's when unsuspecting foe was still a thing.) I was a bit less casual when season 3 came out (Utilizing meta builds and rotations) and my skill basically plateaued for a while there so it was about the same in Season 4 as I stopped caring about personal improvement. The only time I had any sort of problem with any of the content was going after the achievements and that's mostly because they require you to do very specific things or actually be good at fighting a boss (Kill x in 40 seconds or avoid this attack from this boss). None of the content outside of the achievements has actually been difficult or put up a challenge against the skillset one would develop by doing Fractal/Raid CMs, Raids, Strikes, Fractals, or Dungeons (pre HoT). It's literally impossible to fail any of the personal story. There's no failure state, you retry from checkpoint and go again. > > > > so i just have to dump the build, that i know how to use, and grind lots of gold, so i can get new runes for the new build, that i dont know anything about? > > yea, thats totally casual, i am sure that people will flock to this new and stunning approach. its not like people got attached to their playstyle after only 80 lvls > > Such straw, very man. > > No. > > I didn't have trouble with my shout heals warrior. I didn't have trouble with my interrupt warrior. If all you gleamed from what I said here is "PlAy MeTa" Then you're blind to your own toxicity and are trying, either on purpose or otherwise, to undermine my argument with such things. > > Now, when I said > > The only time I had any sort of problem with any of the content was going after the achievements and that's mostly because they require you to do very specific things or actually be good at fighting a boss (Kill x in 40 seconds or avoid this attack from this boss). > I meant it from when Season 2 came out until today. The meaning behind this is, so long as you have a consistent, cohesive build that does something well and has traits selected that give good synergy with what it does, then this game is going to be pretty easy outside of endgame group content. There's no consequence for changing traits on your build so they make more sense. You wouldn't take a sword cooldown trait if it didn't provide anything beneficial to your build because you use maces and axes, would you? Core stat Exotics are also pretty cheap to come across if you're wanting to try a different build but not commit to it. There's also a plethora of stat-selectable armor that's relatively easy to get for the more niche stat sets. still a lot of work with a questionable outcome. i tried one of the meta DD builds, and was annihilated. was that because i played it wrong, or because the gear wasnt good enough? either way, no more fun on THAT toon. i would even have to grind, just to get my old build back. not gonna happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laila Lightness.8742 Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 Expansions are meant to expand not add more of the same by copying (hot mobs has had enough and fight back) its clear some ppl only enjoy the starting zone of the game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laila Lightness.8742 Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > @"Sir Alymer.3406" said: > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > @"Sir Alymer.3406" said: > > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > > @"Sir Alymer.3406" said: > > > > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > > > nope, orr has to go from the main storyline too, if they ever want it to be truly casual. they have already nerfed it twice, so the mobs arent > > > > > > > the big issue anymore, it is the maps and the content. > > > > > > > they can make hard content if they want, i am even willing to pay my share of it. > > > > > > > but dont expect me to pay unless they make some new casual content too > > > > > > > and LW is not casual. not at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > Uh, how is LW not casual when it's literally impossible to fail the new metas on the new maps and literally impossible to fail in the story if you pay any amount of attention? > > > > > > > > > > > not true, it is more casual though. you still have all the previous LWS before that. and i dont care about metas anyway > > > > > it is also a new form of LW, the reduction in difficulty is prolly the only reason for the name change > > > > > > > > Look, I was super casual when season 2 came out. (I used a shout heals warrior in full clerics, then a interrupt warrior with hammer/greatsword in cavalier's when unsuspecting foe was still a thing.) I was a bit less casual when season 3 came out (Utilizing meta builds and rotations) and my skill basically plateaued for a while there so it was about the same in Season 4 as I stopped caring about personal improvement. The only time I had any sort of problem with any of the content was going after the achievements and that's mostly because they require you to do very specific things or actually be good at fighting a boss (Kill x in 40 seconds or avoid this attack from this boss). None of the content outside of the achievements has actually been difficult or put up a challenge against the skillset one would develop by doing Fractal/Raid CMs, Raids, Strikes, Fractals, or Dungeons (pre HoT). It's literally impossible to fail any of the personal story. There's no failure state, you retry from checkpoint and go again. > > > > > > so i just have to dump the build, that i know how to use, and grind lots of gold, so i can get new runes for the new build, that i dont know anything about? > > > yea, thats totally casual, i am sure that people will flock to this new and stunning approach. its not like people got attached to their playstyle after only 80 lvls > > > > Such straw, very man. > > > > No. > > > > I didn't have trouble with my shout heals warrior. I didn't have trouble with my interrupt warrior. If all you gleamed from what I said here is "PlAy MeTa" Then you're blind to your own toxicity and are trying, either on purpose or otherwise, to undermine my argument with such things. > > > > Now, when I said > > > The only time I had any sort of problem with any of the content was going after the achievements and that's mostly because they require you to do very specific things or actually be good at fighting a boss (Kill x in 40 seconds or avoid this attack from this boss). > > I meant it from when Season 2 came out until today. The meaning behind this is, so long as you have a consistent, cohesive build that does something well and has traits selected that give good synergy with what it does, then this game is going to be pretty easy outside of endgame group content. There's no consequence for changing traits on your build so they make more sense. You wouldn't take a sword cooldown trait if it didn't provide anything beneficial to your build because you use maces and axes, would you? Core stat Exotics are also pretty cheap to come across if you're wanting to try a different build but not commit to it. There's also a plethora of stat-selectable armor that's relatively easy to get for the more niche stat sets. > > still a lot of work with a questionable outcome. i tried one of the meta DD builds, and was annihilated. was that because i played it wrong, or because the gear wasnt good enough? either way, no more fun on THAT toon. i would even have to grind, just to get my old build back. not gonna happen. You build could been nerfed as anet nerfs overperforming skills. Why did you delete your gear even. You could tweaked on where you saw you fell back. Instead try to use same . Thats how builds are made through trail and error. Core didnt have trail and error as few enemies could serviev more than 3 hits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battledrone.8315 Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said: > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > @"Sir Alymer.3406" said: > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > @"Sir Alymer.3406" said: > > > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > > > @"Sir Alymer.3406" said: > > > > > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > > > > nope, orr has to go from the main storyline too, if they ever want it to be truly casual. they have already nerfed it twice, so the mobs arent > > > > > > > > the big issue anymore, it is the maps and the content. > > > > > > > > they can make hard content if they want, i am even willing to pay my share of it. > > > > > > > > but dont expect me to pay unless they make some new casual content too > > > > > > > > and LW is not casual. not at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Uh, how is LW not casual when it's literally impossible to fail the new metas on the new maps and literally impossible to fail in the story if you pay any amount of attention? > > > > > > > > > > > > > not true, it is more casual though. you still have all the previous LWS before that. and i dont care about metas anyway > > > > > > it is also a new form of LW, the reduction in difficulty is prolly the only reason for the name change > > > > > > > > > > Look, I was super casual when season 2 came out. (I used a shout heals warrior in full clerics, then a interrupt warrior with hammer/greatsword in cavalier's when unsuspecting foe was still a thing.) I was a bit less casual when season 3 came out (Utilizing meta builds and rotations) and my skill basically plateaued for a while there so it was about the same in Season 4 as I stopped caring about personal improvement. The only time I had any sort of problem with any of the content was going after the achievements and that's mostly because they require you to do very specific things or actually be good at fighting a boss (Kill x in 40 seconds or avoid this attack from this boss). None of the content outside of the achievements has actually been difficult or put up a challenge against the skillset one would develop by doing Fractal/Raid CMs, Raids, Strikes, Fractals, or Dungeons (pre HoT). It's literally impossible to fail any of the personal story. There's no failure state, you retry from checkpoint and go again. > > > > > > > > so i just have to dump the build, that i know how to use, and grind lots of gold, so i can get new runes for the new build, that i dont know anything about? > > > > yea, thats totally casual, i am sure that people will flock to this new and stunning approach. its not like people got attached to their playstyle after only 80 lvls > > > > > > Such straw, very man. > > > > > > No. > > > > > > I didn't have trouble with my shout heals warrior. I didn't have trouble with my interrupt warrior. If all you gleamed from what I said here is "PlAy MeTa" Then you're blind to your own toxicity and are trying, either on purpose or otherwise, to undermine my argument with such things. > > > > > > Now, when I said > > > > The only time I had any sort of problem with any of the content was going after the achievements and that's mostly because they require you to do very specific things or actually be good at fighting a boss (Kill x in 40 seconds or avoid this attack from this boss). > > > I meant it from when Season 2 came out until today. The meaning behind this is, so long as you have a consistent, cohesive build that does something well and has traits selected that give good synergy with what it does, then this game is going to be pretty easy outside of endgame group content. There's no consequence for changing traits on your build so they make more sense. You wouldn't take a sword cooldown trait if it didn't provide anything beneficial to your build because you use maces and axes, would you? Core stat Exotics are also pretty cheap to come across if you're wanting to try a different build but not commit to it. There's also a plethora of stat-selectable armor that's relatively easy to get for the more niche stat sets. > > > > still a lot of work with a questionable outcome. i tried one of the meta DD builds, and was annihilated. was that because i played it wrong, or because the gear wasnt good enough? either way, no more fun on THAT toon. i would even have to grind, just to get my old build back. not gonna happen. > > You build could been nerfed as anet nerfs overperforming skills. Why did you delete your gear even. You could tweaked on where you saw you fell back. Instead try to use same . Thats how builds are made through trail and error. Core didnt have trail and error as few enemies could serviev more than 3 hits > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said: > Expansions are meant to expand not add more of the same by copying (hot mobs has had enough and fight back) its clear some ppl only enjoy the starting zone of the game the starting zone is selling the game, since it is the first experience for new players. if they dont like it, then the rest of the game prolly isnt made for them. anet has made expansions for that group of people, the division will always be there. thats like parents learning their kids to HATE their brothers and sisters. you cant build a functional family on that. even less an mmo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battledrone.8315 Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said: > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > @"Sir Alymer.3406" said: > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > @"Sir Alymer.3406" said: > > > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > > > @"Sir Alymer.3406" said: > > > > > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > > > > nope, orr has to go from the main storyline too, if they ever want it to be truly casual. they have already nerfed it twice, so the mobs arent > > > > > > > > the big issue anymore, it is the maps and the content. > > > > > > > > they can make hard content if they want, i am even willing to pay my share of it. > > > > > > > > but dont expect me to pay unless they make some new casual content too > > > > > > > > and LW is not casual. not at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Uh, how is LW not casual when it's literally impossible to fail the new metas on the new maps and literally impossible to fail in the story if you pay any amount of attention? > > > > > > > > > > > > > not true, it is more casual though. you still have all the previous LWS before that. and i dont care about metas anyway > > > > > > it is also a new form of LW, the reduction in difficulty is prolly the only reason for the name change > > > > > > > > > > Look, I was super casual when season 2 came out. (I used a shout heals warrior in full clerics, then a interrupt warrior with hammer/greatsword in cavalier's when unsuspecting foe was still a thing.) I was a bit less casual when season 3 came out (Utilizing meta builds and rotations) and my skill basically plateaued for a while there so it was about the same in Season 4 as I stopped caring about personal improvement. The only time I had any sort of problem with any of the content was going after the achievements and that's mostly because they require you to do very specific things or actually be good at fighting a boss (Kill x in 40 seconds or avoid this attack from this boss). None of the content outside of the achievements has actually been difficult or put up a challenge against the skillset one would develop by doing Fractal/Raid CMs, Raids, Strikes, Fractals, or Dungeons (pre HoT). It's literally impossible to fail any of the personal story. There's no failure state, you retry from checkpoint and go again. > > > > > > > > so i just have to dump the build, that i know how to use, and grind lots of gold, so i can get new runes for the new build, that i dont know anything about? > > > > yea, thats totally casual, i am sure that people will flock to this new and stunning approach. its not like people got attached to their playstyle after only 80 lvls > > > > > > Such straw, very man. > > > > > > No. > > > > > > I didn't have trouble with my shout heals warrior. I didn't have trouble with my interrupt warrior. If all you gleamed from what I said here is "PlAy MeTa" Then you're blind to your own toxicity and are trying, either on purpose or otherwise, to undermine my argument with such things. > > > > > > Now, when I said > > > > The only time I had any sort of problem with any of the content was going after the achievements and that's mostly because they require you to do very specific things or actually be good at fighting a boss (Kill x in 40 seconds or avoid this attack from this boss). > > > I meant it from when Season 2 came out until today. The meaning behind this is, so long as you have a consistent, cohesive build that does something well and has traits selected that give good synergy with what it does, then this game is going to be pretty easy outside of endgame group content. There's no consequence for changing traits on your build so they make more sense. You wouldn't take a sword cooldown trait if it didn't provide anything beneficial to your build because you use maces and axes, would you? Core stat Exotics are also pretty cheap to come across if you're wanting to try a different build but not commit to it. There's also a plethora of stat-selectable armor that's relatively easy to get for the more niche stat sets. > > > > still a lot of work with a questionable outcome. i tried one of the meta DD builds, and was annihilated. was that because i played it wrong, or because the gear wasnt good enough? either way, no more fun on THAT toon. i would even have to grind, just to get my old build back. not gonna happen. > > You build could been nerfed as anet nerfs overperforming skills. Why did you delete your gear even. You could tweaked on where you saw you fell back. Instead try to use same . Thats how builds are made through trail and error. Core didnt have trail and error as few enemies could serviev more than 3 hits thats another problem, im all for trial and error. but the crux was the last 2 dogs in pof starter mission. were talking ½ hour of hardcore play, just to GET to the next trial. kitten that, my thief is still rotting there. together with my ele. perhaps the worms can use them, so theyre not totally wasted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laila Lightness.8742 Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said: > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > @"Sir Alymer.3406" said: > > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > > @"Sir Alymer.3406" said: > > > > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > > > > @"Sir Alymer.3406" said: > > > > > > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > > > > > nope, orr has to go from the main storyline too, if they ever want it to be truly casual. they have already nerfed it twice, so the mobs arent > > > > > > > > > the big issue anymore, it is the maps and the content. > > > > > > > > > they can make hard content if they want, i am even willing to pay my share of it. > > > > > > > > > but dont expect me to pay unless they make some new casual content too > > > > > > > > > and LW is not casual. not at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Uh, how is LW not casual when it's literally impossible to fail the new metas on the new maps and literally impossible to fail in the story if you pay any amount of attention? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not true, it is more casual though. you still have all the previous LWS before that. and i dont care about metas anyway > > > > > > > it is also a new form of LW, the reduction in difficulty is prolly the only reason for the name change > > > > > > > > > > > > Look, I was super casual when season 2 came out. (I used a shout heals warrior in full clerics, then a interrupt warrior with hammer/greatsword in cavalier's when unsuspecting foe was still a thing.) I was a bit less casual when season 3 came out (Utilizing meta builds and rotations) and my skill basically plateaued for a while there so it was about the same in Season 4 as I stopped caring about personal improvement. The only time I had any sort of problem with any of the content was going after the achievements and that's mostly because they require you to do very specific things or actually be good at fighting a boss (Kill x in 40 seconds or avoid this attack from this boss). None of the content outside of the achievements has actually been difficult or put up a challenge against the skillset one would develop by doing Fractal/Raid CMs, Raids, Strikes, Fractals, or Dungeons (pre HoT). It's literally impossible to fail any of the personal story. There's no failure state, you retry from checkpoint and go again. > > > > > > > > > > so i just have to dump the build, that i know how to use, and grind lots of gold, so i can get new runes for the new build, that i dont know anything about? > > > > > yea, thats totally casual, i am sure that people will flock to this new and stunning approach. its not like people got attached to their playstyle after only 80 lvls > > > > > > > > Such straw, very man. > > > > > > > > No. > > > > > > > > I didn't have trouble with my shout heals warrior. I didn't have trouble with my interrupt warrior. If all you gleamed from what I said here is "PlAy MeTa" Then you're blind to your own toxicity and are trying, either on purpose or otherwise, to undermine my argument with such things. > > > > > > > > Now, when I said > > > > > The only time I had any sort of problem with any of the content was going after the achievements and that's mostly because they require you to do very specific things or actually be good at fighting a boss (Kill x in 40 seconds or avoid this attack from this boss). > > > > I meant it from when Season 2 came out until today. The meaning behind this is, so long as you have a consistent, cohesive build that does something well and has traits selected that give good synergy with what it does, then this game is going to be pretty easy outside of endgame group content. There's no consequence for changing traits on your build so they make more sense. You wouldn't take a sword cooldown trait if it didn't provide anything beneficial to your build because you use maces and axes, would you? Core stat Exotics are also pretty cheap to come across if you're wanting to try a different build but not commit to it. There's also a plethora of stat-selectable armor that's relatively easy to get for the more niche stat sets. > > > > > > still a lot of work with a questionable outcome. i tried one of the meta DD builds, and was annihilated. was that because i played it wrong, or because the gear wasnt good enough? either way, no more fun on THAT toon. i would even have to grind, just to get my old build back. not gonna happen. > > > > You build could been nerfed as anet nerfs overperforming skills. Why did you delete your gear even. You could tweaked on where you saw you fell back. Instead try to use same . Thats how builds are made through trail and error. Core didnt have trail and error as few enemies could serviev more than 3 hits > > thats another problem, im all for trial and error. but the crux was the last 2 dogs in pof starter mission. were talking ½ hour of hardcore > play, just to GET to the next trial. kitten that, my thief is still rotting there. together with my ele. perhaps the worms can use them, so theyre not > totally wasted. So you took the 2 most fragile classes in game wich both rellies on high dps to surviev. And the first time i played pof was on a low end laptop with 20fps. But you also took the 2 hardest classes to play in first pof then its obvius you arent playing alot wich leads to less knowledge . You seem to quite mmo if its rising in difficulty from starting zone so it is obvius you didnt like gw2 core beyond queensdale. You say that you represent all casuals but you arent most casuals learned to adapt nothing in open world is really hardcore. No one became good instantly. Hots biggest diffrence is the mobs actually fights back. Problem with hot was core didnt teach build making as you could beat it with only uttility skills and no weapon or just use no gear. Also the jungle was meant to feel dangerouse if they had same difficulty as core game hot would been beaten and forgotten in matter of a day. A mmo isnt built on easy content but to play and interact with others Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urphen.2857 Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 > @"battledrone.8315" said: > still a lot of work with a questionable outcome. i tried one of the meta DD builds, and was annihilated. was that because i played it wrong, or because the gear wasnt good enough? either way, no more fun on THAT toon. i would even have to grind, just to get my old build back. not gonna happen. > thats another problem, im all for trial and error. but the crux was the last 2 dogs in pof starter mission. were talking ½ hour of hardcore play, just to GET to the next trial. kitten that, my thief is still rotting there. together with my ele. perhaps the worms can use them, so theyre not totally wasted. so you played in the open world meta builds that are made for playing in a grp in fracs/raids ? pls tell me im wrong, have you realy played glass cannon meta builds in the open world? and you are wondering why you are dead? for open world there is no meta build, condi weaver with dire stats can faceroll throug the content like it was showed in another thread here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laila Lightness.8742 Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 > @"Urphen.2857" said: > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > still a lot of work with a questionable outcome. i tried one of the meta DD builds, and was annihilated. was that because i played it wrong, or because the gear wasnt good enough? either way, no more fun on THAT toon. i would even have to grind, just to get my old build back. not gonna happen. > > thats another problem, im all for trial and error. but the crux was the last 2 dogs in pof starter mission. were talking ½ hour of hardcore play, just to GET to the next trial. kitten that, my thief is still rotting there. together with my ele. perhaps the worms can use them, so theyre not totally wasted. > > so you played in the open world meta builds that are made for playing in a grp in fracs/raids ? > pls tell me im wrong, have you realy played glass cannon meta builds in the open world? > and you are wondering why you are dead? > for open world there is no meta build, condi weaver with dire stats can faceroll throug the content like it was showed in another thread here. > If he did i am not sure he understands the builds or how the build system works Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battledrone.8315 Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said: > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said: > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > @"Sir Alymer.3406" said: > > > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > > > @"Sir Alymer.3406" said: > > > > > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Sir Alymer.3406" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > > > > > > > > > nope, orr has to go from the main storyline too, if they ever want it to be truly casual. they have already nerfed it twice, so the mobs arent > > > > > > > > > > the big issue anymore, it is the maps and the content. > > > > > > > > > > they can make hard content if they want, i am even willing to pay my share of it. > > > > > > > > > > but dont expect me to pay unless they make some new casual content too > > > > > > > > > > and LW is not casual. not at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Uh, how is LW not casual when it's literally impossible to fail the new metas on the new maps and literally impossible to fail in the story if you pay any amount of attention? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not true, it is more casual though. you still have all the previous LWS before that. and i dont care about metas anyway > > > > > > > > it is also a new form of LW, the reduction in difficulty is prolly the only reason for the name change > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Look, I was super casual when season 2 came out. (I used a shout heals warrior in full clerics, then a interrupt warrior with hammer/greatsword in cavalier's when unsuspecting foe was still a thing.) I was a bit less casual when season 3 came out (Utilizing meta builds and rotations) and my skill basically plateaued for a while there so it was about the same in Season 4 as I stopped caring about personal improvement. The only time I had any sort of problem with any of the content was going after the achievements and that's mostly because they require you to do very specific things or actually be good at fighting a boss (Kill x in 40 seconds or avoid this attack from this boss). None of the content outside of the achievements has actually been difficult or put up a challenge against the skillset one would develop by doing Fractal/Raid CMs, Raids, Strikes, Fractals, or Dungeons (pre HoT). It's literally impossible to fail any of the personal story. There's no failure state, you retry from checkpoint and go again. > > > > > > > > > > > > so i just have to dump the build, that i know how to use, and grind lots of gold, so i can get new runes for the new build, that i dont know anything about? > > > > > > yea, thats totally casual, i am sure that people will flock to this new and stunning approach. its not like people got attached to their playstyle after only 80 lvls > > > > > > > > > > Such straw, very man. > > > > > > > > > > No. > > > > > > > > > > I didn't have trouble with my shout heals warrior. I didn't have trouble with my interrupt warrior. If all you gleamed from what I said here is "PlAy MeTa" Then you're blind to your own toxicity and are trying, either on purpose or otherwise, to undermine my argument with such things. > > > > > > > > > > Now, when I said > > > > > > The only time I had any sort of problem with any of the content was going after the achievements and that's mostly because they require you to do very specific things or actually be good at fighting a boss (Kill x in 40 seconds or avoid this attack from this boss). > > > > > I meant it from when Season 2 came out until today. The meaning behind this is, so long as you have a consistent, cohesive build that does something well and has traits selected that give good synergy with what it does, then this game is going to be pretty easy outside of endgame group content. There's no consequence for changing traits on your build so they make more sense. You wouldn't take a sword cooldown trait if it didn't provide anything beneficial to your build because you use maces and axes, would you? Core stat Exotics are also pretty cheap to come across if you're wanting to try a different build but not commit to it. There's also a plethora of stat-selectable armor that's relatively easy to get for the more niche stat sets. > > > > > > > > still a lot of work with a questionable outcome. i tried one of the meta DD builds, and was annihilated. was that because i played it wrong, or because the gear wasnt good enough? either way, no more fun on THAT toon. i would even have to grind, just to get my old build back. not gonna happen. > > > > > > You build could been nerfed as anet nerfs overperforming skills. Why did you delete your gear even. You could tweaked on where you saw you fell back. Instead try to use same . Thats how builds are made through trail and error. Core didnt have trail and error as few enemies could serviev more than 3 hits > > > > thats another problem, im all for trial and error. but the crux was the last 2 dogs in pof starter mission. were talking ½ hour of hardcore > > play, just to GET to the next trial. kitten that, my thief is still rotting there. together with my ele. perhaps the worms can use them, so theyre not > > totally wasted. > > So you took the 2 most fragile classes in game wich both rellies on high dps to surviev. And the first time i played pof was on a low end laptop with 20fps. But you also took the 2 hardest classes to play in first pof then its obvius you arent playing alot wich leads to less knowledge . You seem to quite mmo if its rising in difficulty from starting zone so it is obvius you didnt like gw2 core beyond queensdale. You say that you represent all casuals but you arent most casuals learned to adapt nothing in open world is really hardcore. No one became good instantly. Hots biggest diffrence is the mobs actually fights back. Problem with hot was core didnt teach build making as you could beat it with only uttility skills and no weapon or just use no gear. Also the jungle was meant to feel dangerouse if they had same difficulty as core game hot would been beaten and forgotten in matter of a day. A mmo isnt built on easy content but to play and interact with others not first, i had my ranger, guardian, mesmer, warrior go through first, with varying degrees of difficulty. and necro too ofc. "interact with others"...its a solo story mission. and all (successful) mmos ARE build on easy content. even wow nerfed the starting zones. at launch, the tutorial boss was a lot harder in this game too. difficult with good rewards, and the harcores will farm it, while screaming for more difficult with bad rewards, and noone will touch it. its all about the shinies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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