knite.1542 Posted September 7, 2020 Share Posted September 7, 2020 > @"serialkicker.5274" said: > Level 80 people that are playing the game for at least two weeks, will rarely have dps so low, that it should be considered not contributing to the team. How would you know this without a dps meter? I am mostly asking because it isn't true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tayga.3192 Posted September 7, 2020 Share Posted September 7, 2020 > @"knite.1542" said: > > @"serialkicker.5274" said: > > > Level 80 people that are playing the game for at least two weeks, will rarely have dps so low, that it should be considered not contributing to the team. > > How would you know this without a dps meter? I am mostly asking because it isn't true. > He's just talking randomly without any backup. Reminder: “The challenge is that the skill disparity between average players and hardcore players is extreme. We’re talking about ten times damage output. You can’t necessarily put a DPS check that the average player is going to be able to overcome without making the fight entirely trivialized for the hardcore. But we have some tricks up our sleeve that we’re going to be trying.” https://www.pcgamesn.com/guild-wars-2/difficulty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serialkicker.5274 Posted September 7, 2020 Share Posted September 7, 2020 > @"knite.1542" said: > > @"serialkicker.5274" said: > > > Level 80 people that are playing the game for at least two weeks, will rarely have dps so low, that it should be considered not contributing to the team. > > How would you know this without a dps meter? I am mostly asking because it isn't true. > 1. I've ran dps meter for some time to see how "helpful" it actually is and to see how consistent people are with their claims. 2. How do people know if someone is absolute trash or not in games without dps meter? Skill, knowledge, seeing their tactics, positioning, choice of skills/utilities etc. > @"Tayga.3192" said: > He's just talking randomly without any backup. Cute. But he claiming it isn't true is a fact and evidence? Or any of your claims? Hahah. *Facepalm* I'll leave you with definition of contribution, because it seems you are confused about it: "something that you contribute or do to help produce or achieve something together with other people, or to help make something successful". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted September 7, 2020 Share Posted September 7, 2020 > @"Yggranya.5201" said: > > @"Hyrai.8720" said: > > > @"Yggranya.5201" said: > > > > @"Hyrai.8720" said: > > > > you also drink coffee and build paper planes all day at work and expect to get the same recognition as your hard working colleagues? > > > > and when you get fired you start complaining that it's unjustified? > > > > > > > > you wanna go back to the "good ol' times"? > > > > fine, so you don't get fired because you're not performing, you get fired because you're a woman. > > > > thats better, right?! > > > > > > > > it's basically the same with dps meters. > > > > players were getting kicked for playing the wrong class or not having enough AP, simply because the group didnt have anything else to base their decision on. > > > > now that they have Arc they can allow off-meta players and see if theyre performing. > > > > or to get back to my analogy: they have the data to prove that women are performing just as well as men. sometimes even better. > > > > i dont see how that's a bad thing... > > > > > > And when they aren't performing to your standards, they deserve to be ridiculed, right? > > > > To stay with my analogy: > > If your performance doesnt match your salary your boss has every right to ridicule you, doesnt he? > > Your boss has the right to fire you. What benefit would there be in ridiculing someone? Oh yeah, "fun". Besides, if you think doing things like raids in game is like working a job, you might consider if playing that part of the game is worth the stress. Just something to think about. So then kicking people without a word is fine then? They just got fired as it were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted September 7, 2020 Share Posted September 7, 2020 > @"serialkicker.5274" said: > > @"Hyrai.8720" said: > > > your point was pretty much: the only acceptable limits are those limits set by the game itself (see quote below). > > others disagreed, saying players are free to set their own limits (even if they exceed the bare minimum) and only accept players in their squad that agree to those limits. > > no logical inconsistency there. > I see you are having a bit of trouble. So here, let me help you up, ok? > Dude says: "Again, it is not up to you to decide how much damage is "enough" for the other players in your group." > And I reply: "But it's up to them to decide whether my dps is below their subjective limit, so they can kick me? Nice logic." > Take your time. > > It's not me who is deciding anything about anyones dps. It's certain people who use dps meter. I'm just joining the group and killing stuff. And if I do let's say 15k dps and top guy does 20k, he could decide that by his pure opinion, I'm not contributing enough and kicks me. (I've yet to see lfg that would says 20k required or something like that in almost 8 years of playing). Yes you are 1 person they are 4 and 3 need to vote to kick you. so they 3 decide over you 1, the logic holds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kichwas.7152 Posted September 7, 2020 Share Posted September 7, 2020 I didn't even know we had DPS meters... Explains why somebody in a recent story mode dungeon I was in suddenly yelled out "28k DPS, woot!"... I was sitting there wondering if he just say a 28k crit... or had found someway to actually see his DPS... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tayga.3192 Posted September 7, 2020 Share Posted September 7, 2020 > @"serialkicker.5274" said: > I'll leave you with definition of contribution If player A does 10 times the damage of player B (and if both are dps), player B is either training or leeching (in both cases, B is not contributing enough). Obviously I assume player B has no special role. A hardcore player does 10 times more dps than an "average" player, the keyword here is "average". The quote in the article I linked explicitly says "average player". Not "new player". Leeching in OW is more than fine, who cares about doing any relevant amount of dps on chak gerent or on triple trouble wurms? There will always be 4-5 people who kill 90% of the boss for the remaining players anyway. I myself usually just autoattack while watching something on my phone. Leeching on fractals/raids is not fine since you have a limited amount of players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knite.1542 Posted September 7, 2020 Share Posted September 7, 2020 I guess for DPSing in an open world scenario my thought of contributing might be a bit extreme. Overall I would just ask myself, if all of the DPS players did the amount of DPS I am doing, would this event succeed. I would say for most squads I am in when I do any open world bosses, the answer would be no for most players. Usually there are 5ish players carry the kill and there rest of the players are effectively tagging the boss. To be clear, I don't have any issue with that. I just wanted to clarify that the "average" player that has played for over 2 weeks has a meaningless contribution to the success of most open world encounters (from a DPS perspective at least). Next time I do a boss I will take some screenshots. edit: typos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliamRationem.5172 Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > @"serialkicker.5274" said: > > I'll leave you with definition of contribution > > If player A does 10 times the damage of player B (and if both are dps), player B is either training or leeching (in both cases, B is not contributing enough). Obviously I assume player B has no special role. > > A hardcore player does 10 times more dps than an "average" player, the keyword here is "average". The quote in the article I linked explicitly says "average player". Not "new player". > > Leeching in OW is more than fine, who cares about doing any relevant amount of dps on chak gerent or on triple trouble wurms? There will always be 4-5 people who kill 90% of the boss for the remaining players anyway. I myself usually just autoattack while watching something on my phone. > > Leeching on fractals/raids is not fine since you have a limited amount of players. It's not leeching because I don't call it that. You see, I've determined that the group will succeed in spite of me. That's not leeching. It's something else entirely! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 > @"Dante.1508" said: > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > @"Dante.1508" said: > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > @"Dante.1508" said: > > > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > > > @"Dante.1508" said: > > > > > > > Yes There should be no mods in an mmorpg.. its opens far to many cans of worms and very few mmo's even allow these things without being banned.. Very poor on Anets behalf to allow these hacks. > > > > > > > > > > > > But they are not hacks, they don't change the code whatsoever > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > > > > > > > > > No mods should exist, close the back door and removing the hackers from the game and show you care about the game in general. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If it were meant to be here, they'd of implemented it. If its not in the game as it is then it doesn't need to exist; This is becoming a "nerf buttons" fiasco like in Warhammer online where you could bypass the GCD and fire multiple of the same skill regardless of cooldown. Thats not here "yet" but hackers are running rampant in all game-modes, the toxicity due to meters existing is at an all time high. Either implement these abundantly used mods into the game as core features and QOL or come out, and say you dont support it and are closing the back door to prevent people from messing with the code and to do so is an instant ban REGARDLESS of who you are. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What about mods who don't mess with the code, just screencap for example? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > None at all, you allow one you need to allow all... So no nothing, nada, zilch. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats not how rules work though, thats like saying well if we allow people to drive 30 km/h you allow them to ride 500km/h. So we should not allow cars. > > > > > > > > > > See you are ok with arcdps but you are not ok with people never dying and flying around in WvW which is also a script mod.. just not a friendly one.. But they still use them to screw others over just like arcdps. > > > > > > > > But it's not an hack per definition. It doesn't change the game code/information that gets send to the server. > > > > > > > > And let's be clear here, toxicity decreased from my experience after the introduction of dps meters not increased. > > > > > > > > And will you address the point I made about rules not applying to all cases. Why should add-ons be the one exception to this and be all or nothing? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its got to inject some to see what other customers are doing.. obviously is checking the code to see what the raid group is doing.. Because if you allow one you have to allow them all. > > > > Why are you so adament on having no nuance? As a company it's perfectly possible to allow some and disallow others. > > > > Explain to me please why you can't have nuanced rules. > > > > > > @"TwoGhosts.6790" said: > > > > > @"Dante.1508" said: > > > > > See you are ok with arcdps but you are not ok with people never dying and flying around in WvW which is also a script mod.. just not a friendly one.. But they still use them to screw others over just like arcdps. > > > > > > > > It's impossible for me to take that comparison seriously. You're really stretching. > > > > > > > > > @"Dante.1508" said: > > > > > > @"TwoGhosts.6790" said: > > > > > > The results are in... > > > > > > Seems pretty conclusive. > > > > > > > > > > If thats the case why are raids considered niche and the population doing them so small.. I think a forum poll does not show the full picture of customers. > > > > > > > > I don't do raids, and I use arcdps all the time. > > > > > > > > Ofc a forum poll does not show the full picture of all customers. For that you would have to poll them all. > > > > > > > > But the results of this poll are clear, and one might assume that it represents the views of that proportion of the playerbase which both frequents the forums and which cares enough about the issue to vote. > > > > > > > > It's not dismissable. > > > > > > No it represents the views of the raiding portion of the Forum community. > > > > Possibly, but this is placed in general so its to be expected that it represents the general forum population. > > Its been explained all through this thread why. honestly i still haven't seen an explanation. So if you could link the post that explained it, that would be appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyrai.8720 Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 > @"serialkicker.5274" said: > > @"Hyrai.8720" said: > > > your point was pretty much: the only acceptable limits are those limits set by the game itself (see quote below). > > others disagreed, saying players are free to set their own limits (even if they exceed the bare minimum) and only accept players in their squad that agree to those limits. > > no logical inconsistency there. > I see you are having a bit of trouble. So here, let me help you up, ok? > Dude says: "Again, it is not up to you to decide how much damage is "enough" for the other players in your group." > And I reply: "But it's up to them to decide whether my dps is below their subjective limit, so they can kick me? Nice logic." > Take your time. > > It's not me who is deciding anything about anyones dps. It's certain people who use dps meter. I'm just joining the group and killing stuff. And if I do let's say 15k dps and top guy does 20k, he could decide that by his pure opinion, I'm not contributing enough and kicks me. (I've yet to see lfg that would says 20k required or something like that in almost 8 years of playing). Dude says: "Again, it is not up to you to decide how much damage is "enough" for the other players in your group." You reply: "But it's up to them to decide whether my dps is below their subjective limit, so they can kick me? Nice logic." I reply: "doesnt matter if your subjective limit matches the commander's subjective limit. His squad his rules. If you cant live with that make your own squad with your own rules." the difference here is: you're just a "random" player joining a squad with certain rules. youre in a position with no rights to force your opinion onto anyone. the person kicking you is the squad's leader who sets those rules and has the right to kick you if you dont follow them. /edit: same goes for 5 man groups of course. if you join 4 players doing e.g. fractals, you should do your best to meet those 4 players expectations instead of forcing your expectations onto them. i dont see any flawed logic here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serialkicker.5274 Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > @"serialkicker.5274" said: > > I'll leave you with definition of contribution > > If player A does 10 times the damage of player B (and if both are dps), player B is either training or leeching (in both cases, B is not contributing enough). Obviously I assume player B has no special role. > > A hardcore player does 10 times more dps than an "average" player, the keyword here is "average". The quote in the article I linked explicitly says "average player". Not "new player". There is nowhere in definition that would specify where the limit between contributing or not is. You just made it up, same as people tend to do when they use dps meter. With this logic, I could literally kick someone who does 20k damage, but that's 100 points of damage less than me, therefore, I could consider it not contributing. It's subjective. We could also take an example where let's say we have 5 man group - 1st does 20k, second does 21k, third does 22k, fourth does 23k and fifth does 24k. Average is 22k, therefore one with 20k and one with 21k would get kicked for being below average, thus not contributing in your logic. See, I can be super technical too and I can exaggerate too. You are taking every extreme cases to make your point. Hardcore player dealing 10x more damage. Some people say I'm making things up, but then they come up with crazy ideas and examples. That would mean that one does 2k damage and the other does 20k. Yeah, let's exaggerate like that to make the point, huh? And even 20k is pushing it, depending on the content. Like I said, I've ran dps meter for a while. Healers can do 2k or more. So don't be silly. Besides, in rare cases where someone would be doing 2k damage as dps role, you should be able to notice that without dps meter. > Leeching on fractals/raids is not fine since you have a limited amount of players. Makes zero sense. Is there anywhere where players are not limited? We can have million people or more in the same map? >Leeching in OW is more than fine, who cares about doing any relevant amount of dps on chak gerent or on triple trouble wurms? There will always be 4-5 people who kill 90% of the boss for the remaining players anyway. I myself usually just autoattack while watching something on my phone. Hello, contradiction! Suddenly this is fine, despite there is also a limited amount of players that can participate. And you said 5 people will do the majority of the job. So, why can't 5 people do majority in dungeons or fractal? I mean, boss dies anyway, there is no timer aside from raids (there might be rare exception) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serialkicker.5274 Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 > @"Hyrai.8720" said: >... I told you, I've never seen a lfg that would specify how much damage is required. Have you? you didn't answer and I asked you so nicely to give me a honest answer. In 8 years of playing, I haven't seen a single lfg that would say "you need to do at least 20k damage" or whatever. And you keep missing the point of overall argument. This is not me arguing that someone who makes their own group isn't allowed to make his rules and enforce them. I'm arguing that people do all kind of nasty things with the help of this tool and I think it's badly effecting the community and I've given plenty of examples of the things I've seen. I just simply don't think it's worth it and I'm against it. And then people go all technical like "you can make your own group". Well, you could too, no dps meter was needed. You could also play with experienced players and do fast and smooth runs. I did them for years before meter was out. And then when I later got bored of same, repetitive runs with same classes, builds, tactics, stacking points and so on, I started to play it more casual. And I had no problem finding group as a ranger before dps meter. So, clearly you already had a tool to play the game the way you wanted. It's called LFG and was always there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serialkicker.5274 Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: >developer quote. It's from the games own metrics. It was also far worse than top tier players doing 10 times the damage of others. The exact quote referenced top tier players doing 10 times the damage of the remaining AVERAGE, which again suggest a far worse gap then between top and bottom tier performance players. > > Back when GW2raidar was still a thing, basically a collection of data which players submitted their damage logs to for the database, there was a gap between top performance and bottom tier of 500%, that is top tier players where often doing 5 times the damage that lowest players did. This based based ONLY on successful raid boss kills. The unsuccessful ones where not even in the statistic. You took raids to make your example, when I already made clear, that is the only exception I would make, because bosses are on timer there, but it would be best for Arenanet to put official dps meter in, that would work just for raids. Also, taking raids as example, where potential of max dps is a lot higher and easier achieveable, because you have 10 people that allow for basically all buffs covered and boss fight last long enough that you could actually make use of those buffs and entire rotation. Then of course the gap can be larger. I already said raids are a different beast in gw2 and many think they should never happen in gw2, but that's another topic. > If you spent some time in different performance groups, from top tier to practice runs for group content, you'd know how big the gap is. The simple truth here is: you are simply oblivious as to how big the gap in player skills in this game is. Which is fine, for the majority of content high performance is not needed, not even decent or bad performance. The problem is that a vast majority of this player base are not even capable of bad performance, they are strait up terrible. These are not extreme cases, this is every day performance disparity in this player base. Don't assume things please. I did content with high performing groups for a long time. We did smooth and fast runs, falling behind official record runs by maybe 10-15%, depending on the instance. Obviously we had guilds and friendlist for that. You don't see a professional football player come and play with random people on the street and demand they meet some high criteria, so he can have fun. That's why he plays for club, where he can play professional matches on such level. To expect to play to such level even in pugs is just sad and taking game way too seriously. > So yes, experienced players will be able to immediately notice a damage dealer doing 2k damage. What about less experienced players? Experience is no on/off switch. What about a group which already struggles and does not manage to carry an even worse performing player? Should they start making assumptions as to where the problem is? You are literally stating that guess work is better than hard facts. Oh fucking no. How the hell do other games manage that? Yeah, let's solve this by monitoring each other and then pointing fingers /s Less experienced players should first learn how game works before relying on damage to discriminate among players. Many players can pull the rotation after smacking golems for a week and they might be happy with their dps meter showing good numbers, but many of them aren't good players. That's what happens when a new player asks for a advice and he's immediately pointed at snowcrows where he falls into this mindset or think it's expected of him to run that build and reach those numbers. > That is without getting into any of the benefits data analysis of fights allows for performance and practice purposes for actually regular groups which simply want to succeed at a fight. You can succeed at any fight without dps meter. I'm doing it for at least 20 years across many games without issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 > @"serialkicker.5274" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > >developer quote. It's from the games own metrics. It was also far worse than top tier players doing 10 times the damage of others. The exact quote referenced top tier players doing 10 times the damage of the remaining AVERAGE, which again suggest a far worse gap then between top and bottom tier performance players. > > > > Back when GW2raidar was still a thing, basically a collection of data which players submitted their damage logs to for the database, there was a gap between top performance and bottom tier of 500%, that is top tier players where often doing 5 times the damage that lowest players did. This based based ONLY on successful raid boss kills. The unsuccessful ones where not even in the statistic. > You took raids to make your example, when I already made clear, that is the only exception I would make, because bosses are on timer there, but it would be best for Arenanet to put official dps meter in, that would work just for raids. > Also, taking raids as example, where potential of max dps is a lot higher and easier achieveable, because you have 10 people that allow for basically all buffs covered and boss fight last long enough that you could actually make use of those buffs and entire rotation. Then of course the gap can be larger. I already said raids are a different beast in gw2 and many think they should never happen in gw2, but that's another topic. So you are changing your stance to DPS meters should not be allowed unless it's for raids/challenging content. Sure, that would be an option. Hard to enforce unless Arenanet introduced their own damage meter, hopefully with as many or better functions than ARCDPS. > @"serialkicker.5274" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > If you spent some time in different performance groups, from top tier to practice runs for group content, you'd know how big the gap is. The simple truth here is: you are simply oblivious as to how big the gap in player skills in this game is. Which is fine, for the majority of content high performance is not needed, not even decent or bad performance. The problem is that a vast majority of this player base are not even capable of bad performance, they are strait up terrible. These are not extreme cases, this is every day performance disparity in this player base. > Don't assume things please. I did content with high performing groups for a long time. We did smooth and fast runs, falling behind official record runs by maybe 10-15%, depending on the instance. Obviously we had guilds and friendlist for that. You don't see a professional football player come and play with random people on the street and demand they meet some high criteria, so he can have fun. That's why he plays for club, where he can play professional matches. Oh, I am in a raid static and in 2 casual raid guilds. I have no issue with toxicity or getting my kills. Somehow I doubt that this applies to the entire player base, and on the same note: I doubt that removing access to data and metrics for players to improve on would be a net benefit to this games player base for those who do not enjoy the luxury of having huge pools of experienced players. Meanwhile, even at my level I do regular checks of damage logs to see how fights went post fight. Damage is most often the least of my interestes, and I rather focus on combat flow, positioning, boons as well as rotations both to understand why someone might have outperformed me or why something went wrong. > @"serialkicker.5274" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > So yes, experienced players will be able to immediately notice a damage dealer doing 2k damage. What about less experienced players? Experience is no on/off switch. What about a group which already struggles and does not manage to carry an even worse performing player? Should they start making assumptions as to where the problem is? You are literally stating that guess work is better than hard facts. > Oh kitten no. How the hell do other games manage that? Yeah, let's solve this by monitoring each other and then pointing fingers /s Less experienced players should first learn how game works before relying on damage to discriminate among players. Many players can pull the rotation after smacking golems for a week and they might be happy with their dps meter showing good numbers, but many of them aren't good players. That's what happens when a new player asks for a advice and he's immediately pointed at snowcrows where he falls into this mindset or think it's expected of him to run that build and reach those numbers. Other games have damage meters. Literally all of them. Some even have other addons which do nearly all the mechanics for them. Deadly Boss Mods is quit popular in WoW. > @"serialkicker.5274" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > That is without getting into any of the benefits data analysis of fights allows for performance and practice purposes for actually regular groups which simply want to succeed at a fight. > You can succeed at any fight without dps meter. I'm doing it for at least 20 years across many games without issues. I never said you could not. I'm saying that damage meters are a net benefit in making success possible and as such function as a resource for players to be used. We had the time before damage meters in this game. I like to refer to that time as the: "bring 10k AP, no necro or ranger" times. Or also occasionally the:"4 warriors 1 mesmer" times. Thanks, I wouldn't want to go back to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serialkicker.5274 Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > @"serialkicker.5274" said: > > There is nowhere in definition that would specify where the limit between contributing or not is. You just made it up, same as people tend to do when they use dps meter. With this logic, I could literally kick someone who does 20k damage, but that's 100 points of damage less than me, therefore, I could consider it not contributing. It's subjective. We could also take an example where let's say we have 5 man group - 1st does 20k, second does 21k, third does 22k, fourth does 23k and fifth does 24k. Average is 22k, therefore one with 20k and one with 21k would get kicked for being below average, thus not contributing in your logic. See, I can be super technical too and I can exaggerate too. > > You are also talking extremes. Nobody kicks 20k when top is 24k and you know it. "not contributing" is not doing just a bit less dps, it's about not doing enough dps to carry your weight (assuming 6 dps, everyone should aim for burning through approximately 16-17% of the boss' HP). > > If more than one player can do 20k+ dps while one person does <15k there is a slight problem (maybe missed rotation etc) but if they do <10k that means something is seriously wrong. > > Obviously mechanics play a huge part in this. Yeah, I literally mentioned that making exaggeration and being technical is easy and I demonstrated that. If people decide to use certain logic, then I'm allow to use it too. Also, that people should share dps farly equally to be considered contribution, that is purely your opinion and nothing else. Definition of contribution is clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serialkicker.5274 Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > So you are changing your stance to DPS meters should not be allowed unless it's for raids/challenging content. Sure, that would be an option. Hard to enforce unless Arenanet introduced their own damage meter, hopefully with as many or better functions than ARCDPS. I'm not changing my stance. This was always my stance, it was mentioned probably like three pages ago if it wasn't maybe deleted by now. And correction: not challenging content, only raids, because it has a strict timer and you actually need good dps, different roles and good organization. No doubt, raids are usually the absolute end game or highest challenging content of any game that has them, so people know what to expect. > > @"serialkicker.5274" said: > Meanwhile, even at my level I do regular checks of damage logs to see how fights went post fight. Damage is most often the least of my interestes, and I rather focus on combat flow, positioning, boons as well as rotations both to understand why someone might have outperformed me or why something went wrong. That's fine. Do you need to see entire group damage for that? > Other games have damage meters. Literally all of them. Some even have other addons which do nearly all the mechanics for them. Deadly Boss Mods is quit popular in WoW. Literally every single one? You sure? I haven't played every mmo obviously, but from what I've read and from what I've been told from friends who did play them (if I make a mistake, feel free to correct me): FFXIV didn't use one for ages and they were doing fine. They later caved in and allowed one, but it's supposedly not allowed to talk about dps meter in public chat. Blade and Soul: Has personal dps meter (which I'm fine with and wouldn't mind in gw2). Party dps meter is allowed only in raids and hardmode dungeons. BDO: NO dps meter. SWTOR: No dps meter. You can use some third party tool to pull out combat log for your own numbers. Archeage: No dps meter. Only personal damage logs. So, either they don't have dps meter or many didn't have them for yeaaaars and did completely fine without them. > We had the time before damage meters in this game. I like to refer to that time as the: "bring 10k AP, no necro or ranger" times. Or also occasionally the:"4 warriors 1 mesmer" times. Thanks, I wouldn't want to go back to that. I don't know why people thing is a good argument. That's like saying guns are not a problem, because people killed each other without them in the past. Or racism is not a problem, because people always found a way to discriminate. Besides, you are going back into times when dungeons were pretty much the only end game content worth repeating and was also the only somewhat challenging content. All the elitists where there, so of course you would often see these kind of lfg. Doesn't mean you couldn't find regular lfgs or that you couldn't make your own group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyrai.8720 Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 > @"serialkicker.5274" said: > > @"Hyrai.8720" said: > > >... > I told you, I've never seen a lfg that would specify how much damage is required. Have you? No I haven't. And we never will. Because dps numbers are very different depending on what boss you're at. That's why people ask for a certain experience (within possibility of the given tools, such as LI ping etc.) so the people joining know what is expected from them. If you need a specific number spelled out for you, chances are you're not experienced enough to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serialkicker.5274 Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 > @"Hyrai.8720" said: > > @"serialkicker.5274" said: > > > @"Hyrai.8720" said: > > > > >... > > I told you, I've never seen a lfg that would specify how much damage is required. Have you? > > No I haven't. And we never will. Because dps numbers are very different depending on what boss you're at. > That's why people ask for a certain experience (within possibility of the given tools, such as LI ping etc.) so the people joining know what is expected from them. > If you need a specific number spelled out for you, chances are you're not experienced enough to begin with. > So you admit you have no good argument, you can subjectively decide anytime that someone in your party is not doing enough and kick them? Gotcha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laila Lightness.8742 Posted September 8, 2020 Author Share Posted September 8, 2020 > @"serialkicker.5274" said: > > @"Hyrai.8720" said: > > > @"serialkicker.5274" said: > > > > @"Hyrai.8720" said: > > > > > > >... > > > I told you, I've never seen a lfg that would specify how much damage is required. Have you? > > > > No I haven't. And we never will. Because dps numbers are very different depending on what boss you're at. > > That's why people ask for a certain experience (within possibility of the given tools, such as LI ping etc.) so the people joining know what is expected from them. > > If you need a specific number spelled out for you, chances are you're not experienced enough to begin with. > > > > So you admit you have no good argument, you can subjectively decide anytime that someone in your party is not doing enough and kick them? Gotcha. So basicly you want the option to kick or leave to be removed so you must have same ppl full run and ban all meters and talk of performance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyrai.8720 Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 > @"serialkicker.5274" said: > > @"Hyrai.8720" said: > > > @"serialkicker.5274" said: > > > > @"Hyrai.8720" said: > > > > > > >... > > > I told you, I've never seen a lfg that would specify how much damage is required. Have you? > > > > No I haven't. And we never will. Because dps numbers are very different depending on what boss you're at. > > That's why people ask for a certain experience (within possibility of the given tools, such as LI ping etc.) so the people joining know what is expected from them. > > If you need a specific number spelled out for you, chances are you're not experienced enough to begin with. > > > > So you admit you have no good argument, you can subjectively decide anytime that someone in your party is not doing enough and kick them? Gotcha. While leading a squad I can decide to kick you whenever I want and for whatever reason I want. I never stated anything else. That's the only argument I need. You wrote something in chat i don't agree with? kick You play ranger? kick Your char looks stupid? kick You're last in dps? kick My squad, my rules. With or without dps meter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serialkicker.5274 Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 > @"Hyrai.8720" said: > > @"serialkicker.5274" said: > > > @"Hyrai.8720" said: > > > > @"serialkicker.5274" said: > > > > > @"Hyrai.8720" said: > > > > > > > > >... > > > > I told you, I've never seen a lfg that would specify how much damage is required. Have you? > > > > > > No I haven't. And we never will. Because dps numbers are very different depending on what boss you're at. > > > That's why people ask for a certain experience (within possibility of the given tools, such as LI ping etc.) so the people joining know what is expected from them. > > > If you need a specific number spelled out for you, chances are you're not experienced enough to begin with. > > > > > > > So you admit you have no good argument, you can subjectively decide anytime that someone in your party is not doing enough and kick them? Gotcha. > > While leading a squad I can decide to kick you whenever I want and for whatever reason I want. I never stated anything else. > That's the only argument I need. > > You wrote something in chat i don't agree with? kick > You play ranger? kick > Your char looks stupid? kick > You're last in dps? kick > > My squad, my rules. With or without dps meter. Thanks for confirming you don't need a dps meter. I knew you had it in you. > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said: >So basicly you want the option to kick or leave to be removed so you must have same ppl full run and ban all meters and talk of performance I have no idea how you came to that conclusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyrai.8720 Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 > @"serialkicker.5274" said: > Thanks for confirming you don't need a dps meter. I knew you had it in you. I just said I'll kick you for being lowest dps... ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serialkicker.5274 Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 > @"Hyrai.8720" said: > > @"serialkicker.5274" said: > > Thanks for confirming you don't need a dps meter. I knew you had it in you. > > > I just said I'll kick you for being lowest dps... ;) Below that you said with or without dps meter. And I wouldn't be lowest dps, you can be sure of that. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyrai.8720 Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 >My squad my rules. With or without dps meter. That's what i said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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