Should dps meters get banned?

[Fallesafe.5932]

> @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

>Should dps meters get banned?

 

No, this topic of discussion should get banned.

 

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"robertthebard.8150" said:

> So I'm confused, on one hand you state that DPS meters do allow "non-meta" builds, but that they aren't used to evaluate other player's DPS... Something seems a bit off about that, from where I'm sitting. If they're not being used to evaluate other players, how do they know that a non-meta build is putting out "satisfactory" DPS?

You should learn to read more thoroughly. "Many people don't care about other people's DPS, so long as it's not abysmal." does not mean those people will not evaluate that dps. Obviously, the people using DPS meters are going take notice about the dps levels of other players. It's just (and it's likely what @"Taril.8619" had in mind) most players will not really care about those numbers unless they see them being really low. And quite often, even then they will not care to voice their concern unless the instance is going badly.

Basically, if your numbers are low, but they're not so low others can't cover for you, many players will not bother to bring that up, because they'd rather deal with the nuisance with putting more effort than delay the instance even further. If your numbers are truly bad however, or the group wipes, the likeliness of someone speaking up will get significantly higher.

 

[robertthebard.8150]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"robertthebard.8150" said:

> > So I'm confused, on one hand you state that DPS meters do allow "non-meta" builds, but that they aren't used to evaluate other player's DPS... Something seems a bit off about that, from where I'm sitting. If they're not being used to evaluate other players, how do they know that a non-meta build is putting out "satisfactory" DPS?

> You should learn to read more thoroughly. "Many people don't care about other people's DPS, so long as it's not abysmal." does not mean those people will not evaluate that dps. Obviously, the people using DPS meters are going take notice about the dps levels of other players. It's just (and it's likely what @"Taril.8619" had in mind) most players will not really care about those numbers unless they see them being really low. And quite often, even then they will not care to voice their concern unless the instance is going badly.

> Basically, if your numbers are low, but they're not so low others can't cover for you, many players will not bother to bring that up, because they'd rather deal with the nuisance with putting more effort than delay the instance even further. If your numbers are truly bad however, or the group wipes, the likeliness of someone speaking up will get significantly higher.

>

 

It's not a matter of my not reading thoroughly enough. I read it just fine. All of this attributing behavior to how it's used comes from the person I quoted, and others that have subsequently replied, not from anything I said. If, in the given example of the Necro, only the buttheads are paying any real attention to it, then the poster wouldn't have been able to say "Hey look, a net positive from a dps meter", which is what they did, and what I read. The irony of "it's not really used for that, except by buttheads" isn't lost on me, which is all I was pointing out. Unless that poster, and others are claiming that only the buttheads control who is or isn't allowed in groups?

[kharmin.7683]

> @"Fallesafe.5932" said:

 

> No, this topic of discussion should get banned.

Cannot "thumbs up" this enough!

 

 

 

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"robertthebard.8150" said:

> It's not a matter of my not reading thoroughly enough. I read it just fine. All of this attributing behavior to how it's used comes from the person I quoted, and others that have subsequently replied, not from anything I said. If, in the given example of the Necro, only the buttheads are paying any real attention to it

That's the wrong assumption here. Most people with dps meters _are_ paying attention (that's why they have the meters in the first place, after all). Paying attention however doesn't mean they necessarily care about exact numbers, as long as those are "good enough".

 

So, once someone like this allows a necro (for example) into a group, and they will notice that their dps was okay, they will remember it, and possibly, when someone else in the future mentions something against necros, they may respond with "nah, they're fine". Notice, how that would not have been possible without dps meters, because noone would ever be able to notice that "necros are fine".

 

TL/DR: most people that use dps meters do not do that to judge others. This does not mean they completely ignore what they see, though.

 

[robertthebard.8150]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"robertthebard.8150" said:

> > It's not a matter of my not reading thoroughly enough. I read it just fine. All of this attributing behavior to how it's used comes from the person I quoted, and others that have subsequently replied, not from anything I said. If, in the given example of the Necro, only the buttheads are paying any real attention to it

> That's the wrong assumption here. Most people with dps meters _are_ paying attention (that's why they have the meters in the first place, after all). Paying attention however doesn't mean they necessarily care about exact numbers, as long as those are "good enough".

>

> So, once someone like this allows a necro (for example) into a group, and they will notice that their dps was okay, they will remember it, and possibly, when someone else in the future mentions something against necros, they may respond with "nah, they're fine". Notice, how that would not have been possible without dps meters, because noone would ever be able to notice that "necros are fine".

>

> TL/DR: most people that use dps meters do not do that to judge others. This does not mean they completely ignore what they see, though.

>

 

Which was my whole point, they are paying attention to it. Any comments about how, other than my observation on the given example of Necro, was assumed by anyone that has replied to my first, or subsequent replies. If one were to actually read through my responses here, instead of circling the wagons thinking that because I'm against any use of third party software I'm somehow attacking a DPS meter and how it's used, it wouldn't be hard to see that. I don't like third party software in MMOs. However, I also don't make the rules, so when a dev team says "It's ok to use this", it's ok to use it.

[archmagus.7249]

> @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> This is an issue of ppl spying on what other ppl do in groups. Or kick ppl for not playing the meta. Pleasw explain why you choosed an option

 

As long as someone doesn't force it on me, or kick me because I don't want to use it, I'm fine with them using one. You can lose dps because for some reason the boss decides to attack you, and suddenly he you're downed, or you step on an aoe and need to heal.

[Sileeent.5861]

> @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> This is an issue of ppl spying on what other ppl do in groups.

 

Everything you can see in DPS meter is the same as what you can see in battle logs in chat, only in a different view.

So there is no more spying with DPS meter than without.

[Shadowmoon.7986]

> @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > > @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> > > Out with them, leads to nothing but toxicty.

> >

> > And people wont be without them? "But its just another avenue and without it..." etc etc. If you go down that route so much more needs to be ..and you know what? People would still be toxic.

>

> All such thirdparty addons needs to go.

 

So discord, taco, world boss timer, gw2 efficiency should all go as well?

[Obtena.7952]

Well, considering Anet can't ban DPS meters ...

[Biermeister.4678]

They need to be banned because they do not give the full picture of outgoing damage only direct weapon damage the Combat Log gives stats on passive and area damage

[Cameron.6450]

> @"Biermeister.4678" said:

> They need to be banned because they do not give the full picture of outgoing damage only direct weapon damage the Combat Log gives stats on passive and area damage

 

I'm curious, could you give me an example of the type of damage that you don't think is recorded by arcdps?

[Biermeister.4678]

> @"Cameron.6450" said:

> > @"Biermeister.4678" said:

> > They need to be banned because they do not give the full picture of outgoing damage only direct weapon damage the Combat Log gives stats on passive and area damage

>

> I'm curious, could you give me an example of the type of damage that you don't think is recorded by arcdps?

 

According to their site AoE Passive Shouts any skill that does not have animation to activate

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Biermeister.4678" said:

> > @"Cameron.6450" said:

> > > @"Biermeister.4678" said:

> > > They need to be banned because they do not give the full picture of outgoing damage only direct weapon damage the Combat Log gives stats on passive and area damage

> >

> > I'm curious, could you give me an example of the type of damage that you don't think is recorded by arcdps?

>

> According to their site AoE Passive Shouts any skill that does not have animation to activate

 

Which passive shout does damage?

[Biermeister.4678]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Biermeister.4678" said:

> > > @"Cameron.6450" said:

> > > > @"Biermeister.4678" said:

> > > > They need to be banned because they do not give the full picture of outgoing damage only direct weapon damage the Combat Log gives stats on passive and area damage

> > >

> > > I'm curious, could you give me an example of the type of damage that you don't think is recorded by arcdps?

> >

> > According to their site AoE Passive Shouts any skill that does not have animation to activate

>

> Which passive shout does damage?

 

AoE

Passive Skills

Shouts

Or any skill that does not have animations

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Biermeister.4678" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Biermeister.4678" said:

> > > > @"Cameron.6450" said:

> > > > > @"Biermeister.4678" said:

> > > > > They need to be banned because they do not give the full picture of outgoing damage only direct weapon damage the Combat Log gives stats on passive and area damage

> > > >

> > > > I'm curious, could you give me an example of the type of damage that you don't think is recorded by arcdps?

> > >

> > > According to their site AoE Passive Shouts any skill that does not have animation to activate

> >

> > Which passive shout does damage?

>

> AoE

> Passive Skills

> Shouts

> Or any skill that does not have animations

 

I think you misunderstood something.

As you can see here:

> about accuracy

> while two sources of data are provided (area = server strike + simulated buff; personal = chat log), neither source should be considered 100% accurate. area stats will be missing damage from on-skill-activation triggers and some siphons, chat log stats will be missing some strikes from aoe (guardian gs2) and condition ticks vs shroud. damage in both will always include overkill (can't detect) and healing in chat log will never include overheal.

 

as you can see there is no damage that is not recorded by at least one of the two sources of data. It's just that some damage types are counted by one and not the other, it's good that ArcDPS uses TWO sources for data.

[Biermeister.4678]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Biermeister.4678" said:

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > @"Biermeister.4678" said:

> > > > > @"Cameron.6450" said:

> > > > > > @"Biermeister.4678" said:

> > > > > > They need to be banned because they do not give the full picture of outgoing damage only direct weapon damage the Combat Log gives stats on passive and area damage

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm curious, could you give me an example of the type of damage that you don't think is recorded by arcdps?

> > > >

> > > > According to their site AoE Passive Shouts any skill that does not have animation to activate

> > >

> > > Which passive shout does damage?

> >

> > AoE

> > Passive Skills

> > Shouts

> > Or any skill that does not have animations

>

> I think you misunderstood something.

> As you can see here:

> > about accuracy

> > while two sources of data are provided (area = server strike + simulated buff; personal = chat log), neither source should be considered 100% accurate. area stats will be missing damage from on-skill-activation triggers and some siphons, chat log stats will be missing some strikes from aoe (guardian gs2) and condition ticks vs shroud. damage in both will always include overkill (can't detect) and healing in chat log will never include overheal.

>

> as you can see there is no damage that is not recorded by at least one of the two sources of data. It's just that some damage types are counted by one and not the other, it's good that ArcDPS uses TWO sources for data.

 

It misses retaliation, traps ,and stacking damage Tempest Shouts

[Biermeister.4678]

> @"Biermeister.4678" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Biermeister.4678" said:

> > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > > @"Biermeister.4678" said:

> > > > > > @"Cameron.6450" said:

> > > > > > > @"Biermeister.4678" said:

> > > > > > > They need to be banned because they do not give the full picture of outgoing damage only direct weapon damage the Combat Log gives stats on passive and area damage

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I'm curious, could you give me an example of the type of damage that you don't think is recorded by arcdps?

> > > > >

> > > > > According to their site AoE Passive Shouts any skill that does not have animation to activate

> > > >

> > > > Which passive shout does damage?

> > >

> > > AoE

> > > Passive Skills

> > > Shouts

> > > Or any skill that does not have animations

> >

> > I think you misunderstood something.

> > As you can see here:

> > > about accuracy

> > > while two sources of data are provided (area = server strike + simulated buff; personal = chat log), neither source should be considered 100% accurate. area stats will be missing damage from on-skill-activation triggers and some siphons, chat log stats will be missing some strikes from aoe (guardian gs2) and condition ticks vs shroud. damage in both will always include overkill (can't detect) and healing in chat log will never include overheal.

> >

> > as you can see there is no damage that is not recorded by at least one of the two sources of data. It's just that some damage types are counted by one and not the other, it's good that ArcDPS uses TWO sources for data.

>

> It misses retaliation, traps ,and stacking damage Tempest Shouts

 

rea is missing buff extension source (eg. signet of inspiration) - not notified by server.

area is missing percent-based damage (eg. matthias' hadouken) - not notified by server.

area is missing some siphon damage (eg. food, sigil, some traits) - not notified by server.

area is missing healing - not notified by server.

area is missing breakbar damage - not notified by server.

area is missing hard cc context - not notified by server.

area is missing combo finishers - not notified by server.

area is missing some gadget owners for damage association - not notified by server.

area condition damage uses simulated attribute building from gear, traits, and buffs, on a simulated server tick.

area condition damage scaling in levels 1 to 79 is different from the game's scaling.

area condition damage on-skill-use procs on animation start instead of on skill use - not notified by server.

area strike damage notify bubble may cause some events (eg. deimos) to be out of range - not notified by server.

area strips ignore last-stack stability, cc and strip indistinguishable.

area skill activation will only count skills which have animations (no shouts, no instants) - not notified by server.

area overstack and applied do not include ignored stacks (lower than lowest existing stack) - not notified by server

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Biermeister.4678" said:

> > @"Biermeister.4678" said:

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > @"Biermeister.4678" said:

> > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > > > @"Biermeister.4678" said:

> > > > > > > @"Cameron.6450" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Biermeister.4678" said:

> > > > > > > > They need to be banned because they do not give the full picture of outgoing damage only direct weapon damage the Combat Log gives stats on passive and area damage

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I'm curious, could you give me an example of the type of damage that you don't think is recorded by arcdps?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > According to their site AoE Passive Shouts any skill that does not have animation to activate

> > > > >

> > > > > Which passive shout does damage?

> > > >

> > > > AoE

> > > > Passive Skills

> > > > Shouts

> > > > Or any skill that does not have animations

> > >

> > > I think you misunderstood something.

> > > As you can see here:

> > > > about accuracy

> > > > while two sources of data are provided (area = server strike + simulated buff; personal = chat log), neither source should be considered 100% accurate. area stats will be missing damage from on-skill-activation triggers and some siphons, chat log stats will be missing some strikes from aoe (guardian gs2) and condition ticks vs shroud. damage in both will always include overkill (can't detect) and healing in chat log will never include overheal.

> > >

> > > as you can see there is no damage that is not recorded by at least one of the two sources of data. It's just that some damage types are counted by one and not the other, it's good that ArcDPS uses TWO sources for data.

> >

> > It misses retaliation, traps ,and stacking damage Tempest Shouts

>

> rea is missing buff extension source (eg. signet of inspiration) - not notified by server.

> area is missing percent-based damage (eg. matthias' hadouken) - not notified by server.

> area is missing some siphon damage (eg. food, sigil, some traits) - not notified by server.

> area is missing healing - not notified by server.

> area is missing breakbar damage - not notified by server.

> area is missing hard cc context - not notified by server.

> area is missing combo finishers - not notified by server.

> area is missing some gadget owners for damage association - not notified by server.

> area condition damage uses simulated attribute building from gear, traits, and buffs, on a simulated server tick.

> area condition damage scaling in levels 1 to 79 is different from the game's scaling.

> area condition damage on-skill-use procs on animation start instead of on skill use - not notified by server.

> area strike damage notify bubble may cause some events (eg. deimos) to be out of range - not notified by server.

> area strips ignore last-stack stability, cc and strip indistinguishable.

> area skill activation will only count skills which have animations (no shouts, no instants) - not notified by server.

> area overstack and applied do not include ignored stacks (lower than lowest existing stack) - not notified by server

 

Yes that's the damage area is missing. That's one of the two sources ArcDPS is counting.