Should ascended armors of different weights be equally accessible?

[Virtuality.8351]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Virtuality.8351" said:

> > [snip]

> > Not to mention that what is requested in the OP is clearly _not_ to "constantly make changes".

>

> Not sure how you would assure no constant changes, given how the used ingredients are subject to the in-game economy. As such we are back to: constant adjusting here for such a minor difference is not needed.

 

I would not. I do not develop this game. And if you follow the discussion closely, you'd see people agreeing on this proposal or having other thoughts about it do not request for constant changes either. They advocate to bring _back_ the original leather refinement ratio and to regulate the market via increase in supply via manipulating drop rate and so on instead.

 

And the very first paragraph you snipped already tells you that the difference might not be actually as trivial as you would imagine, at least not for the new players.

 

> Complaining about an individual armor set because of it being currently slightly more expensive, and yes anything which takes 2-3 hours is insignificant for a MMORPG player, even ones with little time, is just that: doctoring around a single commodity.

 

And again obviously you did not read the part you snipped at all. The post is _not about individual armor set_.

 

> Even a new player, if he spent a little research about how to save or make gold, in case he himself is not adept at saving or making gold, can easily acquire this amount within hours. The monthly login rewards alone sum up to 60+ gold if converted or sold, not counting the 60 gold from dailies. Sorry but this is NOT an issue, not even for new players.

 

 

...which are still additional grinds. And still you are missing the entire point of the OP, which is to provide a more equal footing and accessibility to equipment and hence contents regardless of the profession they choose for their first character. And yes, the disparity could be made up by the players through additional hours of grind, but the question remains: why does such disparity exist? Should it exist? What is the justification for its existence? Couldn't it be more friendly and equally accessible for new players regardless of their choice of profession instead of punishing them for it?

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Virtuality.8351" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"Virtuality.8351" said:

> > > [snip]

> > > Not to mention that what is requested in the OP is clearly _not_ to "constantly make changes".

> >

> > Not sure how you would assure no constant changes, given how the used ingredients are subject to the in-game economy. As such we are back to: constant adjusting here for such a minor difference is not needed.

>

> I would not. I do not develop this game. And if you follow the discussion closely, you'd see people agreeing on this proposal or having other thoughts about it do not request for constant changes either. They advocate to bring _back_ the original leather refinement ratio and to regulate the market via increase in supply via manipulating drop rate and so on instead.

>

> And the very first paragraph you snipped already tells you that the difference might not be actually as trivial as you would imagine, at least not for the new players.

>

 

People agreeing on wanting things cheaper? If this is about fairness, wouldn't making the other sets more expensive also work?

 

The difference is trivial by simple math of how easy it is so come by gold in this game. Which I abbreviated by giving 2 gold acquisition methods (dailies and login rewards) which make the difference insignificant.

 

> @"Virtuality.8351" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > Complaining about an individual armor set because of it being currently slightly more expensive, and yes anything which takes 2-3 hours is insignificant for a MMORPG player, even ones with little time, is just that: doctoring around a single commodity.

>

> And again obviously you did not read the part you snipped at all. The post is _not about individual armor set_.

>

 

I did not want to get into detail. Suffice to say, your base premise that medium ascended armor is the main or only demand behind leather is false imo.

 

> @"Virtuality.8351" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > Even a new player, if he spent a little research about how to save or make gold, in case he himself is not adept at saving or making gold, can easily acquire this amount within hours. The monthly login rewards alone sum up to 60+ gold if converted or sold, not counting the 60 gold from dailies. Sorry but this is NOT an issue, not even for new players.

>

> Still you are missing the entire point of the OP, which is to provide a more equal footing and accessibility to equipment and hence contents regardless of the profession they choose for their first character. And yes, the disparity could be made up by the players through additional hours of grind, but the question remains: why should such disparity exist? Should it exist? What is the justification for its existence? Couldn't it be more friendly and equally accessible for new players regardless of their choice of profession instead of punishing them for it?

 

It shouldn't exist. I never said it did. I said this is NOT an issue which needs addressing at the current time and quite frankly there is no permanent "fair" way to address it.

 

There was never parity between the armor sets. That is nearly impossible to achieve unless the materials are exactly the same. Given the current difference, it is not in need of addressing. The difference was way bigger in the past, hundreds of gold, and was not addressed back then either and players complained back then just as they are now. With the difference that back then hundreds of gold where A. a lot harder to come by and B. it was hundreds of gold and not a few dozen.

 

EDIT:

and to get very technical, the only place ascended armor is needed is for T4 fractals. Which when done daily even at T3 with recs, reward around 10 gold per day. So even here, players who have to get medium armor require a minimum longer time investment. The actual issue will be the lack of demand for medium armored classes in T4 or CMs, which would be of far greater concern to a new player currently.

[Virtuality.8351]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Virtuality.8351" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > @"Virtuality.8351" said:

> > > > [snip]

> > > > Not to mention that what is requested in the OP is clearly _not_ to "constantly make changes".

> > >

> > > Not sure how you would assure no constant changes, given how the used ingredients are subject to the in-game economy. As such we are back to: constant adjusting here for such a minor difference is not needed.

> >

> > I would not. I do not develop this game. And if you follow the discussion closely, you'd see people agreeing on this proposal or having other thoughts about it do not request for constant changes either. They advocate to bring _back_ the original leather refinement ratio and to regulate the market via increase in supply via manipulating drop rate and so on instead.

> >

> > And the very first paragraph you snipped already tells you that the difference might not be actually as trivial as you would imagine, at least not for the new players.

> >

>

> People agreeing on wanting things cheaper? If this is about fairness, wouldn't making the other sets more expensive also work?

 

...which I'd have zero problem with since all of my characters are already fully geared. Though, I'd still advocate for the new players and go with the opposite direction.

 

> The difference is trivial by simple math of how easy it is so come by gold in this game. Which I abbreviated by giving 2 gold acquisition methods (dailies and login rewards) which make the difference insignificant.

>

> > @"Virtuality.8351" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > Complaining about an individual armor set because of it being currently slightly more expensive, and yes anything which takes 2-3 hours is insignificant for a MMORPG player, even ones with little time, is just that: doctoring around a single commodity.

> >

> > And again obviously you did not read the part you snipped at all. The post is _not about individual armor set_.

> >

>

> I did not want to get into detail. Suffice to say, your base premise that medium ascended armor is the main or only demand behind leather is false imo.

 

And again, which was _not_ the premise but instead a straw man you brought up yourself. Might as well read again.

 

> > > Even a new player, if he spent a little research about how to save or make gold, in case he himself is not adept at saving or making gold, can easily acquire this amount within hours. The monthly login rewards alone sum up to 60+ gold if converted or sold, not counting the 60 gold from dailies. Sorry but this is NOT an issue, not even for new players.

> >

> > Still you are missing the entire point of the OP, which is to provide a more equal footing and accessibility to equipment and hence contents regardless of the profession they choose for their first character. And yes, the disparity could be made up by the players through additional hours of grind, but the question remains: why should such disparity exist? Should it exist? What is the justification for its existence? Couldn't it be more friendly and equally accessible for new players regardless of their choice of profession instead of punishing them for it?

>

> It shouldn't exist. I never said it did. I said this is NOT an issue which needs addressing at the current time and quite frankly there is no permanent "fair" way to address it.

 

To quote yourself: "leather is currently the most expensive, light armor was on release." In case you are not keeping track of the patch note, the exact reason why the the former is how it currently is and the latter became no more was the change of refinement ratio and the recipe, which others have also brought up in this thread. As long as it is not fixed, the disparity will remain permanent. And if it is fixed, well, as long as no additional changes were made to the said two factors above, the effect will likely be permanent.

 

Honestly, you can have your own list of priority, which I respect. Though your arrogance to assume your counterparts position in an argument _without_ reading their text and to deny the need for others does baffle me. Just could we at least have a more civil discussion?

[Virtuality.8351]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> The actual issue will be the lack of demand for medium armored classes in T4 or CMs, which would be of far greater concern to a new player currently.

 

...which I completely and sincerely agree on, but also is completely irrelevant to the topic.

 

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Virtuality.8351" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"Virtuality.8351" said:

> > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > @"Virtuality.8351" said:

> > > > > [snip]

> > > > > Not to mention that what is requested in the OP is clearly _not_ to "constantly make changes".

> > > >

> > > > Not sure how you would assure no constant changes, given how the used ingredients are subject to the in-game economy. As such we are back to: constant adjusting here for such a minor difference is not needed.

> > >

> > > I would not. I do not develop this game. And if you follow the discussion closely, you'd see people agreeing on this proposal or having other thoughts about it do not request for constant changes either. They advocate to bring _back_ the original leather refinement ratio and to regulate the market via increase in supply via manipulating drop rate and so on instead.

> > >

> > > And the very first paragraph you snipped already tells you that the difference might not be actually as trivial as you would imagine, at least not for the new players.

> > >

> >

> > People agreeing on wanting things cheaper? If this is about fairness, wouldn't making the other sets more expensive also work?

>

> ...which I'd have zero problem with since all of my characters are already fully geared. Though, I'd still advocate for the new players and go with the opposite direction.

>

> > The difference is trivial by simple math of how easy it is so come by gold in this game. Which I abbreviated by giving 2 gold acquisition methods (dailies and login rewards) which make the difference insignificant.

> >

> > > @"Virtuality.8351" said:

> > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > Complaining about an individual armor set because of it being currently slightly more expensive, and yes anything which takes 2-3 hours is insignificant for a MMORPG player, even ones with little time, is just that: doctoring around a single commodity.

> > >

> > > And again obviously you did not read the part you snipped at all. The post is _not about individual armor set_.

> > >

> >

> > I did not want to get into detail. Suffice to say, your base premise that medium ascended armor is the main or only demand behind leather is false imo.

>

> And again, which was _not_ the premise but instead a straw man you brought up yourself. Might as well read again.

>

> > > > Even a new player, if he spent a little research about how to save or make gold, in case he himself is not adept at saving or making gold, can easily acquire this amount within hours. The monthly login rewards alone sum up to 60+ gold if converted or sold, not counting the 60 gold from dailies. Sorry but this is NOT an issue, not even for new players.

> > >

> > > Still you are missing the entire point of the OP, which is to provide a more equal footing and accessibility to equipment and hence contents regardless of the profession they choose for their first character. And yes, the disparity could be made up by the players through additional hours of grind, but the question remains: why should such disparity exist? Should it exist? What is the justification for its existence? Couldn't it be more friendly and equally accessible for new players regardless of their choice of profession instead of punishing them for it?

> >

> > It shouldn't exist. I never said it did. I said this is NOT an issue which needs addressing at the current time and quite frankly there is no permanent "fair" way to address it.

>

> To quote yourself: "leather is currently the most expensive, light armor was on release." In case you are not keeping track of the patch note, the exact reason why the the former is how it currently is and the latter became no more was the change of refinement ratio and the recipe. As long as it is not fixed, the disparity will remain permanent. And if it is fixed, well, as long as no additional changes were made to the said two factors above, the effect will likely be permanent.

>

> Honestly, you can have your own list of priority, which I respect. Though your arrogance to assume your counterparts position in an argument _without_ reading their text and to deny the need for others does baffle me. Just could we at least have a more civil discussion?

 

How was I uncivil? I disagreed on your arguments, you ignored mine. I explained why I believe that the current disparity is insignificant.

 

Yes, the disparity remains in that leather armor remains the most expensive and it has for a long time. Meanwhile even this disparity has shrunk because it was way bigger in the past, as a direct result to changes to the game and additions. Making the argument that one fix/change now will be of permanent duration.

 

Again: it is impossible to have a permanent fair equal pricing between sets as long as they require differing materials.

[Virtuality.8351]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

The actual issue will be the lack of demand for medium armored classes in T4 or CMs, which would be of far greater concern to a new player currently.

 

> @"Virtuality.8351" said:

> ...which I completely and sincerely agree on, but also is completely irrelevant to the topic.

 

And the second thing I do not get is that you are talking as if my proposal and the solution to the problem of your priority are mutually exclusive, which begs the question: just how much developmental resource do you suppose is it going to take to change the ratio of refinement?

 

[Virtuality.8351]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Virtuality.8351" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > @"Virtuality.8351" said:

> > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > @"Virtuality.8351" said:

> > > > > > [snip]

> > > > > > Not to mention that what is requested in the OP is clearly _not_ to "constantly make changes".

> > > > >

> > > > > Not sure how you would assure no constant changes, given how the used ingredients are subject to the in-game economy. As such we are back to: constant adjusting here for such a minor difference is not needed.

> > > >

> > > > I would not. I do not develop this game. And if you follow the discussion closely, you'd see people agreeing on this proposal or having other thoughts about it do not request for constant changes either. They advocate to bring _back_ the original leather refinement ratio and to regulate the market via increase in supply via manipulating drop rate and so on instead.

> > > >

> > > > And the very first paragraph you snipped already tells you that the difference might not be actually as trivial as you would imagine, at least not for the new players.

> > > >

> > >

> > > People agreeing on wanting things cheaper? If this is about fairness, wouldn't making the other sets more expensive also work?

> >

> > ...which I'd have zero problem with since all of my characters are already fully geared. Though, I'd still advocate for the new players and go with the opposite direction.

> >

> > > The difference is trivial by simple math of how easy it is so come by gold in this game. Which I abbreviated by giving 2 gold acquisition methods (dailies and login rewards) which make the difference insignificant.

> > >

> > > > @"Virtuality.8351" said:

> > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > Complaining about an individual armor set because of it being currently slightly more expensive, and yes anything which takes 2-3 hours is insignificant for a MMORPG player, even ones with little time, is just that: doctoring around a single commodity.

> > > >

> > > > And again obviously you did not read the part you snipped at all. The post is _not about individual armor set_.

> > > >

> > >

> > > I did not want to get into detail. Suffice to say, your base premise that medium ascended armor is the main or only demand behind leather is false imo.

> >

> > And again, which was _not_ the premise but instead a straw man you brought up yourself. Might as well read again.

> >

> > > > > Even a new player, if he spent a little research about how to save or make gold, in case he himself is not adept at saving or making gold, can easily acquire this amount within hours. The monthly login rewards alone sum up to 60+ gold if converted or sold, not counting the 60 gold from dailies. Sorry but this is NOT an issue, not even for new players.

> > > >

> > > > Still you are missing the entire point of the OP, which is to provide a more equal footing and accessibility to equipment and hence contents regardless of the profession they choose for their first character. And yes, the disparity could be made up by the players through additional hours of grind, but the question remains: why should such disparity exist? Should it exist? What is the justification for its existence? Couldn't it be more friendly and equally accessible for new players regardless of their choice of profession instead of punishing them for it?

> > >

> > > It shouldn't exist. I never said it did. I said this is NOT an issue which needs addressing at the current time and quite frankly there is no permanent "fair" way to address it.

> >

> > To quote yourself: "leather is currently the most expensive, light armor was on release." In case you are not keeping track of the patch note, the exact reason why the the former is how it currently is and the latter became no more was the change of refinement ratio and the recipe. As long as it is not fixed, the disparity will remain permanent. And if it is fixed, well, as long as no additional changes were made to the said two factors above, the effect will likely be permanent.

> >

> > Honestly, you can have your own list of priority, which I respect. Though your arrogance to assume your counterparts position in an argument _without_ reading their text and to deny the need for others does baffle me. Just could we at least have a more civil discussion?

>

> How was I uncivil? I disagreed on your arguments, you ignored mine. I explained why I believe that the current disparity is insignificant.

 

And I explained why I believe your belief was far from close to the reality, which was later not addressed.

 

How were things not civil? First of all you snipped the majority of my earlier reply and addressed none of them. Secondarily, to quote yourself: "I did not want to get into detail. Suffice to say, your base premise that medium ascended armor is the main or only demand behind leather is false imo.", which already indicates that you not only did not address any of them but intentionally not doing so, yet you still make assumption about my proposition while clearly did not read my reply since it was not at all what I meant. Third, while you addressed little of my rebuttal, I have been addressing most of yours, yet now I am accused to be the one ignoring their counterpart's argument. I just do not feel like we are talking to each other on equal terms.

 

> Yes, the disparity remains in that leather armor remains the most expensive and it has for a long time.

...which was, again, introduced by the changes of refinement ratio and crafting recipe.

 

> Meanwhile even this disparity has shrunk because it was way bigger in the past, as a direct result to changes to the game and additions.

...which could use more specification, but still the disparity exists, and even while it has shrunk, it is still arguably a considerable burden for new players. Reasons provided in earlier comments, which were also not addressed.

 

> Making the argument that one fix/change now will be of permanent duration.

I'm sorry but I just could not understand this sentence.

 

> Again: it is impossible to have a permanent fair equal pricing between sets as long as they require differing materials.

And you kept talking about _permanence_ of solutions, which is also another straw man and not what the post is about. Still, have already addressed it by providing the necessary conditions for the solution to be a permanent fix, which, though, you seem to still have no will to talk about while insisting the opposite.

[Virtuality.8351]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> The actual issue will be the lack of demand for medium armored classes in T4 or CMs, which would be of far greater concern to a new player currently.

> @"Virtuality.8351" said:

> ...which I completely and sincerely agree on, but also is completely irrelevant to the topic.

 

And by the way, I am all for it and will support you _if you want to start a new topic on this one_, about which I also have something to say.

[Infusion.7149]

*shrugs*

It's cheaper to make medium than light/heavy using grandmaster marks (fractal/PVP/WVW ascended). Plus strikes' shards have equalized costs for all armor (and weapons).

 

You only need exotic armor for T3 fractals , so don't misrepresent the situation "as an entrance ticket to fractals". It's purely a T4 issue.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Didn't the Devs institute the Leather Farm to address this very lament?

[keenedge.9675]

> @"bryony.1576" said:

> Absolutely. The scarcity of leather is ridiculous, and the "leather farm" as people have mentioned is locked away behind LWS3-- this means it is absolutely *not* accessible to new players. The fact that you need a 4:1 ratio of leather is ridiculous as well.

 

Leather comes from salvaging, farming bags, using a Leather Glyph while you farm, or by buying bags and boxes in Istan or Bitterfrost. Farming content that drops bags is not popular because it's a bit grindy.

 

The Doric leather farm you mention while attractive in map chat is grueling and not something a casual player can wade into. I can do it but I get plenty of leather playing all of the other game modes and never need to buy from the TP unless in a BIG rush. I only routinely farm about an hour a day very casually.

 

> @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:

> Didn't the Devs institute the Leather Farm to address this very lament?

 

I think the Doric farm was more of an appeasement than a solution since I rarely see people doing it. Just like Silverwastes, if it is good people will do it forever.

BTW, Silverwastes is another great source of mid-level leather if you use a level 50 bag-opener.

[Obtena.7952]

Equally accessible YES Equal cost NO

[Hashberry.4510]

So why not boost the cost of the other two to match B) .

[Khisanth.2948]

The simplest way to achieve that goal is just to make them all use the same materials. I would be fine with that but I am sure someone will start bitching about immersion as soon as that is done.

[Westenev.5289]

The market should be decided by supply and demand, not a means to justify the end goal.

[Quantum Dragon.6078]

The costs are determined by players with supply and demand on the TP.

 

I hadn’t done fractals from a week or two after they first launched until about two years ago. I’d had a lot going on IRL so I wasn’t playing much. When I started playing regularly again and began to work my way up fractals I was just fine with the rings that drop in the low levels, buying / upgrading the fractal backpack, and buying the accessories from the fractal / laurel vendors. Once upgraded, the 5 trinkets alone give you 10 infusion slots (3 per ring, 2 for back, and 1 per accessory). Put +9 infusions in them and use an Anguished Tear of Alba and you can do all of T3s, no ascended armor or weapons required. At that point you’ll have better chances of getting ascended material and weapon / armor box drops from chests. It took time, but I’ve geared all 9 of my characters in full ascended everything and only crafted maybe 5 pieces.

 

And there are other avenues that new players can take to try getting ascended gear. Tequatl world boss has a chance to drop boxes (besides the Tequatl’s hoard), as does Triple Trouble world boss. You aren’t restricted to just crafting.

[ASP.8093]

I recommend definitely not upgrading the back item, for what it's worth.

[borgs.6103]

It's already equally accessible - through Strike Missions. You can choose whatever weight and piece with the same prices for everything. Can't get anymore equal than that.

[aspirine.6852]

It should not be this damn expensive for none of them..

[Cuks.8241]

> @"aspirine.6852" said:

> It should not be this kitten expensive for none of them..

 

Thats relative. I think 250-300 g for best in slot equipment is cheap.

[Nubarus.9268]

If you gather all the materials there is no price difference. Your entire arguement is based on if you buy all the ascended materials in the black lion player controlled trade market. I crafted 5 characters in full ascended gear and did not buy anything from the black lion trade, only the things I needed from the crafting npc's. I crafted 2 heavy, 1 medium and 2 light armors + all weapons. I paid the same amount of gold for all of em.