Should they add a DPS meter? - [Merged]

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> Q:Why would one use DPS meters on this game when all use very similiar traits and classes and gear?

 

Because using similar traits and gears leads to vastly different dps numbers. When a player using white soldier gear can do more damage than a player in full ascended berserker gear you can see why dps meters are used. In games were players are pre-filtered by the game itself, as in using bad gear means you can't even play the content, dps meters have a much less reason to exist.

 

In **this** game where the "average" player does less damage than a "good" player does while semi-afk only auto-attacking (I never understood how that's happening btw) DPS meters are very important. It just shows that most players don't lack the build or the gear, but are rather semi awake while playing and DPS meters help find these players.

[Raknar.4735]

> @"Cameron.6450" said:

> > @"Raknar.4735" said:

> > Well, Yoshi-P tolerates unofficial Parsers, as long as they aren't used for toxic intentions, and he is strictly against official Parsers. I share his opinion on this.

> > Only because he develops another game it doesn't mean that I can't share his opinion and also believe his opinion matters for this game ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

>

> Not trying to pin you down or trap you or anything, but out of curiosity, what would you consider to be toxic intentions when it comes to parsers?

>

> I ask because although the usage of meters in gw2 and ff is relatively similar (unsupported third party, not widely used, skews towards high-performance focused players), the moderation in the two games is very different. For example, if I were to politely tell someone in my fractal group that based on my meter their damage was low, and they should try x, y, or z to improve, they might tell me to kitten off, but not much worse would come of that exchange. If a similar thing happened in ff and that person filed a report, there's a reasonable chance that I might be facing a suspension or ban because I explicitly mentioned using a meter, regardless of how politely it is brought up, or the fact that it is part of an attempt to be helpful.

>

> For the record I think people who abuse people over dps should be actioned when they have the option to vote kick or leave the group themselves and choose to belittle people instead, but the bar for what constitutes "toxic" can vary greatly.

 

Unsolicited advice is not always welcome, even if the intention is good. You could simply state that you're using DPS meters when creating a group, then you wouldn't have the reporting problem in the first place.

 

Don't be like this guy shaman met: [https://twitter.com/that_shaman/status/1299736372757114883](https://twitter.com/that_shaman/status/1299736372757114883)

 

@"uberkingkong.8041" Of course Arenanet has made mistakes developing things, you can see that everytime they have to drop things due to the playerbase not interacting with it, like dungeons, Esports and similiar stuff.

Have you ever wondered why PvP and WvW aren't doing fine? Why Arenanet doesn't focus development time into those modes? Take a guess.

 

DPS meters would just be another waste of development time. We already have the alternative.

But if you really want Anet to create monetized DPS meters they have to upkeep, be my guest.

Arc is fine, just like the 3rd party option in all those other MMORPGs is fine. I don't actualy remember any MMORPG having a official DPS meter. Not even the MMORPGs that are focused around raiding. I wonder why that is?

 

[yann.1946]

While I think it would be nice personally if they added an official one (especially because arc doesn't seem to work on my pc.)

 

It probably would affect the game negatively if a meter was added.

1)it will take a while for the official one to be on par with arc as we want way more then just dps.

2) it could scare new players away because of the negative connotation attached to dps meters.

[Cameron.6450]

> @"Raknar.4735" said:

> Unsolicited advice is not always welcome, even if the intention is good. You could simply state that you're using DPS meters when creating a group, then you wouldn't have the reporting problem in the first place.

>

> Don't be like this guy shaman met: [https://twitter.com/that_shaman/status/1299736372757114883](https://twitter.com/that_shaman/status/1299736372757114883)

 

I agree that unsolicited advice is not always welcome, and while it can absolutely be delivered in a toxic manner, would you consider it toxic behaviour regardless of the manner in which it is conveyed? And when given politely (or what we could expect a reasonable person to consider to be polite) is it still worthy of moderation?

 

I don't think the description that that_shaman is describing is really comparable. There doesn't appear to be any advice, only abuse, pretty clear cut case of toxicity.

 

Also I'm not sure if you're referring to gw2 or ff when you mention stating the use of meters. If you're referring to ff, this isn't really an option in almost all cases. A lot of instanced content is done with a match maker, and so there is no option to label a group at all. The group finder that is more similar to gw2's LFG gives you that option, but due to square's moderation stance, and how some people have weaponised this stance, means that if you put that label on a group advertisement you'd likely get reported and face moderation as well.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> In **this** game where the "average" player does less damage than a "good" player does while semi-afk only auto-attacking (I never understood how that's happening btw) DPS meters are very important.

This has two answers. One is obvious - gear and traits. Someone in full nomads with bunker build is not going to do a lot of damage no matter what they do. Someone in full dps gear and build will easily outdps them on autoattack alone.

Second is, again, execution and rotation. I have made an experiment long ago - i took a daredevil staff dps build (a class i had no experience whatsoever at this point), and tried it at the golem with the normal rotation, "random" skill spamming, and with just doing auto. Turns out that out of all those 3 attempts, the last one (full auto) did the most dps. Whenever i was trying to use any other skill, i was actually _lowering_ my dps. Granted, staff DD is one of the most extreme cases, and it definitely would not work that way in many other builds, but it still illustrates the main point - using skills in wrong order, or with bad timing, can be a dps loss compared to not using them at all.

 

PS: out of those 3 attempts, the proper rotation one actually did the _least_ damage for me (although it wasn't much worse than random skill spamming).

 

 

[Obfuscate.6430]

Personally, and this will be my final answer here, I don't feel that DPS meters need to be a thing for anything other than speed clears.

 

Outside of the compromise idea I wrote earlier, I just don't see how it's necessary. Knowing how to support your team, carry yourself and the mechanics of the content is more important than the speed clear.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > In **this** game where the "average" player does less damage than a "good" player does while semi-afk only auto-attacking (I never understood how that's happening btw) DPS meters are very important.

> This has two answers. One is obvious - gear and traits. Someone in full nomads with bunker build is not going to do a lot of damage no matter what they do. Someone in full dps gear and build will easily outdps them on autoattack alone.

> Second is, again, execution and rotation. I have made an experiment long ago - i took a daredevil staff dps build (a class i had no experience whatsoever at this point), and tried it at the golem with the normal rotation, "random" skill spamming, and with just doing auto. Turns out that out of all those 3 attempts, the last one (full auto) did the most dps. Whenever i was trying to use any other skill, i was actually _lowering_ my dps. Granted, staff DD is one of the most extreme cases, and it definitely would not work that way in many other builds, but it still illustrates the main point - using skills in wrong order, or with bad timing, can be a dps loss compared to not using them at all.

>

> PS: out of those 3 attempts, the proper rotation one actually did the _least_ damage for me (although it wasn't much worse than random skill spamming).

>

>

 

As for the first answer, I guess a build inspection can take care of it, or removing bad gear choices outright.

[uberkingkong.8041]

> @"wilykcat.5864" said:

> This is why I dont raid. I'm just going to stick with not raiding cause I'm not competitive with dps. I play the game cause it's fun.

>

> Also I dont want to end up having the same bad experience with dps meters and other ranking addons like of what I've had in WoW.

 

This happens in Fractals and Strikes too.

Subject 7.

Purpose of the fight?

DPS check

 

He's a lot harder than fighting the volcanic boss. DPS check aint no joke on him, you need people to try and focus on worrying about how much DPS they dishing out.

Aint no casual not tryhard dps check on him.

[Cameron.6450]

> @"Raknar.4735" said:

> > @"Cameron.6450" said:

> > > @"Raknar.4735" said:

> > > Unsolicited advice is not always welcome, even if the intention is good. You could simply state that you're using DPS meters when creating a group, then you wouldn't have the reporting problem in the first place.

> > >

> > > Don't be like this guy shaman met: [https://twitter.com/that_shaman/status/1299736372757114883](https://twitter.com/that_shaman/status/1299736372757114883)

> >

> > I agree that unsolicited advice is not always welcome, and while it can absolutely be delivered in a toxic manner, would you consider it toxic behaviour regardless of the manner in which it is conveyed? And when given politely (or what we could expect a reasonable person to consider to be polite) is it still worthy of moderation?

> >

> > I don't think the description that that_shaman is describing is really comparable. There doesn't appear to be any advice, only abuse, pretty clear cut case of toxicity.

> >

> > Also I'm not sure if you're referring to gw2 or ff when you mention stating the use of meters. If you're referring to ff, this isn't really an option in almost all cases. A lot of instanced content is done with a match maker, and so there is no option to label a group at all. The group finder that is more similar to gw2's LFG gives you that option, but due to square's moderation stance, and how some people have weaponised this stance, means that if you put that label on a group advertisement you'd likely get reported and face moderation as well.

>

> Unsolicited advice is not toxic, but can be pretty jarring and annoying. Worthy of moderation? Not really, but most of the time it isn't given in a polite way.

> That_shaman's description is actually really comparable, because many times the one giving "advice", or at least that's what he thinks he's giving, does so in a manner he thinks is polite, when it actually isn't.

>

> I doubt you'd face moderation in FF if you put it in a polite manner. But I do wonder why people would still bring up unsolicited DPS advice in FF when clearly told not to do so by the developers.

 

I mean, you're right that often there's a mismatch between how someone intends to communicate and how it is received, and I'm sure you could find tonnes of examples of it, but this one just isn't one. From the brief description, it doesn't sound like the guy was giving any advice, just insults. And I think it's pretty unlikely that the guy thought he was being polite while ranting about carrying people. It's a good example of a toxic dickhead, just not a good example of toxic unsolicited advice. Either way, not super important.

 

As for why people do it? Who knows. Probably mostly the same reasons anyone does anything that goes against ToS. Ignorance? Recklessness? A belief that they won't be actioned because they're making a good faith effort to help someone? Your guess is as good as mine. That being said, given how much of the game takes place in groups of 4, where damage is largely the responsibility of two people, having one very poor dps is far more frustrating than having a poor dps in gw2. There's only so many ice mages a person can take before they eventually lose it.

[wilykcat.5864]

I dont want to care about someone else's dps because it's not my account, it's their problem if their dps is whatever and its not my problem. If I would care about dps, i would only make sure mine is good and not look and care about others dps. My dps, my problem. Their dps is their problem.

 

Otherwise I'm staying away from dps meters and highly competitive content such as raiding. I've done a fractal once cause I wanted to see what it was and to try something new. I wasnt doing it to get higher ranked in fractal or for my dps.

[uberkingkong.8041]

> @"yann.1946" said:

> While I think it would be nice personally if they added an official one (especially because arc doesn't seem to work on my pc.)

>

> It probably would affect the game negatively if a meter was added.

> 1)it will take a while for the official one to be on par with arc as we want way more then just dps.

> 2) it could scare new players away because of the negative connotation attached to dps meters.

 

Here we go again, negative thinking only.

This is positve thinking

2) Could make new players better and handle new content since people can identify those with low dps and give tips, tell them rotations to run

1)To get on par with ArcDPS? You realize ingame DPS, they have access to things ArcDPS does not have, it can sync with other players with the checkmark "Share DPS" on, and you get REAL DPS data. lag etc. doesn't affect REAL DATA being synced. Player B client says he did 20k dps, HE DID do 20k. ArcDPS lagged, oh he just did 9k. Ingame DPS is better. _Ingame DPS being worse is again negative thinking_

 

This is you guys

"Developers know what to do, this is waste of their time"

Next

"ArcDPS is too good for developers to replicate, developers are not that good"

...

So in first, developers are good they know what to do

Second, developers suck, they couldn't even come close to arcDPS

...

smh

It's just a DPS meter. This isn't having them do VR

_Yall just like to come here, bust balls, negative think the heck outta stuff, and leave._

[uberkingkong.8041]

> @"wilykcat.5864" said:

> I dont want to care about someone else's dps because it's not my account, it's their problem if their dps is whatever and its not my problem. If I would care about dps, i would only make sure mine is good and not look and care about others dps. My dps, my problem. Their dps is their problem.

>

> Otherwise I'm staying away from dps meters and highly competitive content such as raiding. I've done a fractal once cause I wanted to see what it was and to try something new. I wasnt doing it to get higher ranked in fractal or for my dps.

 

Yep you do that. Meanwhile Subject 7 and other DPS CHECK events is going to be jumping up and down and not die.

"ok enough wipes, time to figure out whose the slacker"

"hey slacker, your dps is not enough, your this profession its possible with any gear to get this dps, all you do is this rotation, do it. If you don't we wont meet the DPS CHECK, we will wipe again"

 

2 things

DPS METER

Smaller (4-8 button) rotations

 

are needed

you _people whining about "I do me, if you dont like it tough."_

**those are the people who need the smaller rotations.**

Easier for them to "I do me, tough"

 

Raids become harder by mechanics, jump over shock waves, etc. Not from DPS checks.

You make the "I do me tough"

folks look bad and scare them away from raids by

having them get owned by shockwaves and stuff.

 

"Yep you did you, and you always wipe right away from the shockwave"

put in more effort pal

_start listening to others and get off your "I do me, tough" high horse_

**This is raids, fractals and strikes, this isn't chump change content.**

 

Anet Developers,

They make DPS CHECK content because

"I dont like this idea, let the developers work on better stuff"

Anet Developer,

DPS CHECKS we made more content that has this 'better stuff' enjoy

...

Now we talking about people not doing enough DPS

"I dont think DPS check is a priority"

A lot of content they dishing out ARE DPS CHECKS

DPS Meter will help with the DPS CHECK content

..

"We have ArcDPS"

already mentioned it has problems with lag

"I'm doing 30k dps, idk what you talking about your arc dps is laggin"

this is why we need IN GAME DPS METER

 

"Could never be as good as ArcDPS"

Yet you say "developers work on better stuff"

So you saying they too good to do this, now you saying they suck and could not match what another developer did.

**Just being negative nancies is what you guys are doing.**

[yann.1946]

> @"uberkingkong.8041" said:

> > @"yann.1946" said:

> > While I think it would be nice personally if they added an official one (especially because arc doesn't seem to work on my pc.)

> >

> > It probably would affect the game negatively if a meter was added.

> > 1)it will take a while for the official one to be on par with arc as we want way more then just dps.

> > 2) it could scare new players away because of the negative connotation attached to dps meters.

>

> Here we go again, negative thinking only.

> This is positve thinking

> 2) Could make new players better and handle new content since people can identify those with low dps and give tips, tell them rotations to run

> 1)To get on par with ArcDPS? You realize ingame DPS, they have access to things ArcDPS does not have, it can sync with other players with the checkmark "Share DPS" on, and you get REAL DPS data. lag etc. doesn't affect REAL DATA being synced. Player B client says he did 20k dps, HE DID do 20k. ArcDPS lagged, oh he just did 9k. Ingame DPS is better. _Ingame DPS being worse is again negative thinking_

>

true, but my experience with the build template system would suggest you're point 1) is false.

 

> This is you guys

> "Developers know what to do, this is waste of their time"

Luckily i'm consistent and think this point is relatively bs. although if we aretalking about user engagement data then its a fair assumption.

> Next

> "ArcDPS is too good for developers to replicate, developers are not that good"

> ...

My point was that it would take a lot of TIME.

 

> So in first, developers are good they know what to do

> Second, developers suck, they couldn't even come close to arcDPS

> ...

isn't it good the community isn't a monolith and different people have different opinions. :)

 

> smh

> It's just a DPS meter. This isn't having them do VR

> _Yall just like to come here, bust balls, negative think the heck outta stuff, and leave._

 

 

[lare.5129]

that the point do ask add dps meter if we already have it?

do anything - is spend resources. Spend resources that already exist and works - nonce.

[uberkingkong.8041]

> @"lare.5129" said:

> that the point do ask add dps meter if we already have it?

> do anything - is spend resources. Spend resources that already exist and works - nonce.

 

There is no in game DPS Meter

 

You can use ArcDPS, but "may get banned may not get banned" "no official answer on this"

Just make a in game DPS meter, everyone has,

 

EVEN the people that come here and hate it because

"I play how i want tough"

 

But it doesn't solve anything, the real solution is

shorter rotations 4-8 buttons.

"I play how I want tough"

can't screw it up.

 

Raids not hard anymore because DPS CHECK? That never made them hard, its the mechanics to them that make it hard.

[voltaicbore.8012]

No. NO x 10,000,000^1000000.

 

Given how build/gear templates turned out, absolutely not. Less effective, but heavily monetized. Prior to this debacle, I always assumed that an in-house solution would be more elegant and reasonably monetized. Turns out that those were very weak and unfounded assumptions. If ANet doesn't decide to give up entirely on legendary armory, I hope they can recover some good will by actually pulling it off right.

 

And yes, @"uberkingkong.8041", I do feel quite negatively about this idea, but that applies only to the in-house dps meter. I'm mostly in agreement with you about rotations.

 

I don't think rotations are nearly as complex for most classes as you make them sound, but I generally agree that a lot of us would enjoy the game more if combat could feel more organic and less about adhering to doing The Right Thing at The Right TIme, All The Time. A good deal of the meta comps is about having enough support to just simply ignore certain mechanics and just smash buttons. The less ignore-able mechanics are often not much better, as it turns into "move with the tag a few steps, then resume mashing buttons." It just doesn't feel as reactive and organic as GW2 combat seems designed to be.

 

But ugh - there is absolutely no way I will think positively about an in-house dps meter. I like arcdps' functionality as it is, and I have no faith that ANet will reproduce it properly. I realize that a system to report metrics should be far simpler than build/gear loadouts, but I have extremely low faith in ANet on this sort of thing right now.

[Hoover.6394]

Maybe make it so the player can see their own DPS and level compare to average, but not let others to see ur DPS?

[Brandon Uzumaki.1524]

Not allowing people to see others DPS would make it 100% useless for end game content.

 

The best way to do it in my opinion, (dunno if anyone already said this, too much stuff to read in this post hehe), would be to, create the free DPS meter, just like Ark, and only allow people to disable it for themselves and others, in Dungeons, Open World, story instances, open world and instanced special events, PvP, and maybe WvW (dunno if it's used by good groups and stuff).

And in instanced end game content, Fractals, Strikes and Raids, you can't disable it.

 

Gear check, if we ever get one, just make it so people can opt out 100%, this one is not that big of a deal, since skill is more important than gear in this game.

[Fueki.4753]

There is no need for an official GW2 DPS meter.

The devs should work on content instead.

 

If you want one, just use a third party program.

[Mortifera.6138]

It would bring elitism, yes, but better than living blissfully unawares.

[lare.5129]

> @"uberkingkong.8041" said:

> You can use ArcDPS, but "no official answer on this"

official answer exist from support team on reddit. You can use it, but no one guarantee stable work and etc.

 

 

> @"voltaicbore.8012" said:

> If ANet doesn't decide to give up entirely on legendary armory

I don't understand why someone think what use that armory will be "cheap"

 

> I realize that a system to report metrics should be far simpler than build/gear loadouts, but I have extremely low faith in ANet on this sort of thing right now.

there is a very many ways to implement it. From self number row from current fight only till pro alternative recount version

 

 

[Yggranya.5201]

> @"Raknar.4735" said:

> > @"Cameron.6450" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:

> > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:

> > > > > > If Yoshi-P doesn't think an official DPS-Parser is needed in FFXIV, I don't think we need an official one here.

> > > > >

> > > > > FF14 and GW2 are two very different games.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks, wouldn't have guessed that without your statement.

> > > But in this case it's very relevant. Yoshi-P doesn't think an official DPS parser is needed **in FFXIV**. That does not mean anything about GW2 however. Both DPS disparity and DPS requirements are much, much higher in GW2 than in FFXIV. And FF XIV has a duty finder system that can work due to that game having trinity (and hard-coded roles), and (again) due to a much lower dps disparity and much lower/rarer dps requirements.

> > >

> > > In short, an average player queuing for a duty in FFXIV is most likely good enough for the content, there's no real need to prefilter. In GW2 for many of the instances it's the opposite.

> > >

> > > Correction: after a moment of consideration, i decided that you're right after all - GW2 does not really need an _official_ parser, because it's simply not needed in the content most players frequent. An _unofficial_ parser, like ArcDPS, however, is very much needed.

> > > Notice, though, that this has nothing to do with Yoshi-P's opinion about FF XIV.

> >

> > Generally agree, however I'd note that after playing FF for the last year-ish, there is a similar dps disparity in that game as there is in gw2. It caught me off guard because I expected the lack of stat/build options, and clearly identified built-in rotations to resolve many of the issues that cause dps disparity here, but it just didn't. You're correct though in that outside of the hardest difficulty instances, the dps requirements are much lower. As long as people do not sit in excessive amounts of avoidable damage, and the tank/healer don't fall asleep at the keyboard, it is very difficult to fail an encounter due to low dps.

>

> Yeah, I've seen similiar DPS disparities in most ~~games~~ (Edit: MMORPGs) I've played. WoW, FFXIV, Wildstar etc., even while wearing good gear.

> The average player is just that "average". That's why there are things like duty finder / LFR.

>

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > Notice, though, that this has nothing to do with Yoshi-P's opinion about FF XIV.

>

> Well, Yoshi-P tolerates unofficial Parsers, as long as they aren't used for toxic intentions, and he is strictly against official Parsers. I share his opinion on this.

> Only because he develops another game it doesn't mean that I can't share his opinion and also believe his opinion matters for this game ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

 

From playing all classes to max level in FFXIV, so i know how they work, i can say without a shadow of a doubt that it isn't a difference in player skill or anything like that. It could be, but usually it isn't. It's just people who take their friend to cover them so they don't get kicked, while they expect to get carried as they watch netflix.

 

When i played FFXIV for four months straight as i had nothing better to do, there was like 50 in a thousand dungeon groups where people did their job properly. When i say "did their job properly" i mean they actually played the damn game. I admit, i got REALLY tired of it. In fact, that experience is the sole reason i made these account on the forums of games i play, so i can let people know that what they do is truly despicable.

[Fueki.4753]

> @"Yggranya.5201" said:

> When i played FFXIV for four months straight as i had nothing better to do, there was like 50 in a thousand dungeon groups where people did their job properly. When i say "did their job properly" i mean they actually played the kitten game. I admit, i got REALLY tired of it. In fact, that experience is the sole reason i made these account on the forums of games i play, so i can let people know that what they do is truly despicable.

 

And what exactly means _doing their Job properly_ and _actually playing_ the game to you?

If you mean using the optimal rotations and caring about min-maxing, or knowing every aspect of encounters before seeing them ingame, then those 5% might actually be too high of a number.

But that also implies that you consider people, who have fun in their own way, aren't actually playing properly.

 

I have rare met any players in FF14 who weren't playing properly.

But then again, playing properly means for me simply that they use more skills than their attack chains.

 

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Yggranya.5201" said:

> When i played FFXIV for four months straight as i had nothing better to do, there was like 50 in a thousand dungeon groups where people did their job properly.

Then you were extremely unlucky, or you expected 200% performance to be normal. Yes, you get occasional bad apples on dungeon runs, but it doesn;t happen very often. Most cases when something goes wrong is a direct result of someone doing said dungeon for the first time, and not yet understanding some of its unique mechanics. And even then it only rarely results in wipe, as leveling dungeons are often very forgiving (also, it can be easily helped with you dropping even very short explanations beforehand). There's also a case of people not yet having been fully geared up (it's really easy, especially on the preferred servers, to level up and progress with the story so fast your gear doesn't catch up with you).

 

The real bad players in dungeons don't happen that often at all.

 

Older Alliance Raids, though (especially the 50-lev ones) can be cringey, as they are now so easy that a lot of players indeed do not really pay attention.

 

[uberkingkong.8041]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Yggranya.5201" said:

> > When i played FFXIV for four months straight as i had nothing better to do, there was like 50 in a thousand dungeon groups where people did their job properly.

> Then you were extremely unlucky, or you expected 200% performance to be normal. Yes, you get occasional bad apples on dungeon runs, but it doesn;t happen very often. Most cases when something goes wrong is a direct result of someone doing said dungeon for the first time, and not yet understanding some of its unique mechanics. And even then it only rarely results in wipe, as leveling dungeons are often very forgiving (also, it can be easily helped with you dropping even very short explanations beforehand). There's also a case of people not yet having been fully geared up (it's really easy, especially on the preferred servers, to level up and progress with the story so fast your gear doesn't catch up with you).

>

> The real bad players in dungeons don't happen that often at all.

>

> Older Alliance Raids, though (especially the 50-lev ones) can be cringey, as they are now so easy that a lot of players indeed do not really pay attention.

>

 

How many buttons you have to push if your dps?

Easy to do job properly when you don't have to memorize a 26 button opener, 16 button continuous button loop for optimal dps.