CutesySylveon.8290 Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 > @"apharma.3741" said: > Honestly this post highlights a serious issue, that soulbeast in WvW needs to be brought much closer to PvP and should be nerfed in WvW. > > Not joking, PvP and WvW balance should be incredibly close in my opinion, most things that are too strong in one mode can be changed in a way that fixes it in one mode and is no change to the other....assuming the skills team graciously allows the balance team to make a change. Absolutely not, they're completely different game modes that function on completely different criteria and have their own metas. You can't balance a giant open map game mode with 50+ people per 3 sides with a 5v5 game mode standard. This also isn't even taking into account that every stat, rune, and sigil is available and unnerfed in WvW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > Honestly this post highlights a serious issue, that soulbeast in WvW needs to be brought much closer to PvP and should be nerfed in WvW. > > > > Not joking, PvP and WvW balance should be incredibly close in my opinion, most things that are too strong in one mode can be changed in a way that fixes it in one mode and is no change to the other....assuming the skills team graciously allows the balance team to make a change. > > Absolutely not, they're completely different game modes that function on completely different criteria and have their own metas. You can't balance a giant open map game mode with 50+ people per 3 sides with a 5v5 game mode standard. This also isn't even taking into account that every stat, rune, and sigil is available and unnerfed in WvW. I know there are differences but as the OP stated in the very first post, the difference between the 2 modes can be very extreme, I'm not saying they need to be identical but they should be as close as possible and where there are differences they should be as subtle as possible. WvW _will never be balanced_ due to different runes, sigils and stats no matter how you try but a more unified balance will ease the dev work as it's 1 set of balance rules instead of 2 (devs have already demonstrated they cannot pump out balance patches on a consistent basis for the multiple modes we have) as well as reducing the shock of cross pollination of players from PvP to WvW and vice versa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CutesySylveon.8290 Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > Honestly this post highlights a serious issue, that soulbeast in WvW needs to be brought much closer to PvP and should be nerfed in WvW. > > > > > > Not joking, PvP and WvW balance should be incredibly close in my opinion, most things that are too strong in one mode can be changed in a way that fixes it in one mode and is no change to the other....assuming the skills team graciously allows the balance team to make a change. > > > > Absolutely not, they're completely different game modes that function on completely different criteria and have their own metas. You can't balance a giant open map game mode with 50+ people per 3 sides with a 5v5 game mode standard. This also isn't even taking into account that every stat, rune, and sigil is available and unnerfed in WvW. > > I know there are differences but as the OP stated in the very first post, the difference between the 2 modes can be very extreme, I'm not saying they need to be identical but they should be as close as possible and where there are differences they should be as subtle as possible. > > WvW _will never be balanced_ due to different runes, sigils and stats no matter how you try but a more unified balance will ease the dev work as it's 1 set of balance rules instead of 2 (devs have already demonstrated they cannot pump out balance patches on a consistent basis for the multiple modes we have) as well as reducing the shock of cross pollination of players from PvP to WvW and vice versa. > > We had that before and it was extremely frustrating for WvW to suffer because PvP got changes. You can't balance both with the same criteria because it will always be by sPvP standards, making WvW players get the short end of the stick every time. The balance differences need to be as drastic as the game modes demand, which is extreme. There should be a shock between going to the different game modes, just as it is from PvE to any other mode; you’re going to a completely different game mode and have to adjust to how it functions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > Honestly this post highlights a serious issue, that soulbeast in WvW needs to be brought much closer to PvP and should be nerfed in WvW. > > > > > > > > Not joking, PvP and WvW balance should be incredibly close in my opinion, most things that are too strong in one mode can be changed in a way that fixes it in one mode and is no change to the other....assuming the skills team graciously allows the balance team to make a change. > > > > > > Absolutely not, they're completely different game modes that function on completely different criteria and have their own metas. You can't balance a giant open map game mode with 50+ people per 3 sides with a 5v5 game mode standard. This also isn't even taking into account that every stat, rune, and sigil is available and unnerfed in WvW. > > > > I know there are differences but as the OP stated in the very first post, the difference between the 2 modes can be very extreme, I'm not saying they need to be identical but they should be as close as possible and where there are differences they should be as subtle as possible. > > > > WvW _will never be balanced_ due to different runes, sigils and stats no matter how you try but a more unified balance will ease the dev work as it's 1 set of balance rules instead of 2 (devs have already demonstrated they cannot pump out balance patches on a consistent basis for the multiple modes we have) as well as reducing the shock of cross pollination of players from PvP to WvW and vice versa. > > > > > > We had that before and it was extremely frustrating for WvW to suffer because PvP got changes. You can't balance both with the same criteria because it will always be by sPvP standards, making WvW players get the short end of the stick every time. The balance differences need to be as drastic as the game modes demand, which is extreme. > > There should be a shock between going to the different game modes, just as it is from PvE to any other mode; you’re going to a completely different game mode and have to adjust to how it functions. You're incorrect, we had unified balance between **PvE**, WvW and PvP where competitive balance as a whole was shafted due to PvE. Now we have 2 balance modes, PvE where everything is flat out broken and powercrept and competitive where PvP and WvW are more closely aligned but still have major outliers, some of which have caused major problems like 10 target skills making WvW unplayable at times. I am firmly of the belief that skills should not be wildly different moving from 1 game mode to another, I shouldn't have almost half the cool down on one skill in a competitive mode vs another one simply because....? Really some of them have no reason like Dolyak stance where it's over nerfed in PvP but left broken in WvW when the middle ground of 45s cool down would make it an option in both. I guess I disagree with extremism though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme.3164 Posted February 8, 2021 Author Share Posted February 8, 2021 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Yasai.3549" said: > > > > > > > > > > > No they aren't. > > > > > > > > > > > They have had their power level severely neutered, that much is true, but so did most of the Professions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Only few builds (not professions, builds) are left largely untouched and are truly thriving. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd argue that ranger is truly the only profession I don't see spammed left and right anylonger, I'd say that at best you can reach gold 3 on ranger with good luck on yourside and playing just +1 zerk core hit and run. Not enough sustain for anything else really atm on ranger, they gutted any possibility for a competitive duellist. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With all the buffs to mobility, pretty much any class can keep up with a ranger trying to kite away and that was the main source of sustain for ranger with the other being the GS block which has been severely nerfed to uselness, it's the only source of blocking on the class and now the long CD made it that much worst. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I really don't see nearly as many rangers as before...actually I see many more eles than rangers now and it's a first, the best PvP build for the class is rated as good for max Gold rank so...I don't think my thread is that wrong > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I dont know man, when Im on ranger I get 3x to 4x the healing I get usually on mesmer, often even get most healing in team. > > > > > > > > > as for ranger block, its still one of the best if not the best in the entire game. You are just used to old block which was so kitten broken it was better then the best defensive skills of other classes, and in fact it was so kitten OP, it was usually better then 2 to 3 other defensive skills combined. > > > > > > > > > Like yes, ranger is not the hot stuff meta OP like other kitten builds going around but its not bad either. Proj hate going around and bunker healer kitten really hurts the ranger RN but it might change any moment. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well I have said that you can reach gold 3 with the class so yeah...it's playable but definitely not META, in the last couple of months they were like 0 ranger both in NA and EU mats semi and finals that must mean something. And yeah the projectile hate really hurts , I hope next elite will offers a different playstyle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > my ranger is not even 30 days old and im gold 3 while duo - queueing with another friend that also plays class that he doesnt know how to play. > > > > > > > ranger can definitely reach higher ranks, wont be too hard to push past p1/p2 > > > > > > > in the end it will boil down to meta being bad for ranger, from renegade and guards proj hate, inability to stop support warrior from bannering reliably and getting kitten on by random DH trap and DH in general doing better. Cant cleave or stomp right hurts the ranger, why not play dh, throw a spinny sword and get 20k dmg. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ranger is a low skill ceiling class as such it will do good at average and below skill level. Most nerfs were on point...(...) > > > > > > > > > > Apart from mATs, where it struggles in coordinated bursts, and apart from druid: Core ranger is played incredibly often in high plat. Druids too, some soulbeasts with memes as well. > > > > > > > > > > No idea where you got your numbers. I will take statistics for a few days and post them here. > > > > > > > > I never considered ranked as any indication of balance and class distribution, I repeat that ranger is a low skill ceiling class that will do good at average and below skill level and **nobody ever said that Platinum is free from average and below skill level**. > > > > (...) > > > > > > What do you mean here? There is plenty of ranger players in Top100. It suffers in coordinated team games - not talking about druid -, but it needs no buffs. Adjustments, maybe. > > > > > > > In simpler terms : Ranger is a noob stomper class > > since when plat 2 + are noobs? aka new players ? It's common to have builds of different effort requirements and reward output so it's impossible to state that every single player in platinum was able to break the wall of mediocrity from Gold. The words : noob stomper may have been taken out of context and considered now as some sort of offensive moniker for the people who fall to it; then let's me re-phrase my post. Let me start by saying that I never agreed with builds like : boonbeast- extreme sic'em -bunker druid - tanky beastmastery and with this said I can continue . The nerfs this class has received have been heavy handed , as I stated before in this thread already, most nerfs were justified...some other nerfs were completely unnecessary and have crippled the class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamikharzeeh.8016 Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 > @"apharma.3741" said: > Honestly this post highlights a serious issue, that soulbeast in WvW needs to be brought much closer to PvP and should be nerfed in WvW. > > Not joking, PvP and WvW balance should be incredibly close in my opinion, most things that are too strong in one mode can be changed in a way that fixes it in one mode and is no change to the other....assuming the skills team graciously allows the balance team to make a change. as Wvw main, full agree. less broken fast dmg pew pew combined with crazy running abilities would be nice. i mainly play largescale and ranger and theif in Wvw are FAR too attractive, it kind harms the largescale format, because sometime 30 ppl rather roam around during primetime instead of grouping up and playing proper builds and classes (which ranger/thief, in Wvw, are not.) @"CutesySylveon.8290" well, but especially this "pure dmg" comming from the ascended armor + infusion availability peaks damage in wvw more. and ranger has mobility and quick dmg, despite man things got their damage partly stripped or fully nerfed way harder. for example, it was a mistake to nerf firebrand damage equally as others. it was a mistake to nerf herald hammer 5, bc its a very slow cc with obvious animation. people acting as if Wvw and spvp are even remotely the same things are just misunderstanding much of how either format works, i guess. i'm not spvp pro or sth, only grabbed a metabuild and played to gold rank in the last three weeks, since matchups make Wvw partially dead (thanks for no alliances, dear anet), therefore i cannot 100% speak wisdom in concerns of spvp balancing, but i think it's overall still similarily playable than it was before. Wvw changed towards some classes beeing unable to kill anything now. meta wasn't balanced, not top tier uses been balanced there. but Wvw and balance do not suit anyways. it's not safe space pvp. you have a ton of factors, also food, allies, keep buffs, sheer experience (theres not only plat VS plat, gold VS gold, silver VS silver etc playing... every rank runs around in Wvw. and unlike spvp divisions, wvw ranks tells u not a lot. old players can be more casual but having higher old meta farmed ranks kinda. others are based pros. hard to to classifiy by just this. servertiers are worthless in wvw as well, tells u nothing therefore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme.3164 Posted February 8, 2021 Author Share Posted February 8, 2021 > @"apharma.3741" said: > Honestly this post highlights a serious issue, that soulbeast in WvW needs to be brought much closer to PvP and should be nerfed in WvW. > > Not joking, PvP and WvW balance should be incredibly close in my opinion, most things that are too strong in one mode can be changed in a way that fixes it in one mode and is no change to the other....assuming the skills team graciously allows the balance team to make a change. Really the only things that WvW ranger has over PvP ranger are : 1) Dolyak stance 2) Celestial form CD from 20 down to 10 3) Regen traits having longer base duration For the rest it's basically the same as in PvP, the pets and dmg have been nerfed universally for the class and therefore if you'd change the last things this class has in WvW, same should happen to everybody else like : condi herald , necro and **grenade holo** especially that still enjoy unnerfed values like ranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SexyMofo.8923 Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 It could be worse: you can get 1 dodge taken away likes messers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > Honestly this post highlights a serious issue, that soulbeast in WvW needs to be brought much closer to PvP and should be nerfed in WvW. > > > > Not joking, PvP and WvW balance should be incredibly close in my opinion, most things that are too strong in one mode can be changed in a way that fixes it in one mode and is no change to the other....assuming the skills team graciously allows the balance team to make a change. > > Really the only things that WvW ranger has over PvP ranger are : > > 1) Dolyak stance > 2) Celestial form CD from 20 down to 10 > 3) Regen traits having longer base duration > > For the rest it's basically the same as in PvP, the pets and dmg have been nerfed universally for the class and therefore if you'd change the last things this class has in WvW, same should happen to everybody else like : condi herald , necro and **grenade holo** especially that still enjoy unnerfed values like ranger Yes and it should be the same for all. You and I are in agreement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme.3164 Posted February 8, 2021 Author Share Posted February 8, 2021 > @"kamikharzeeh.8016" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > Honestly this post highlights a serious issue, that soulbeast in WvW needs to be brought much closer to PvP and should be nerfed in WvW. > > > > Not joking, PvP and WvW balance should be incredibly close in my opinion, most things that are too strong in one mode can be changed in a way that fixes it in one mode and is no change to the other....assuming the skills team graciously allows the balance team to make a change. > > as Wvw main, full agree. less broken fast dmg pew pew combined with crazy running abilities would be nice. i mainly play largescale and ranger and theif in Wvw are FAR too attractive, it kind harms the largescale format, because sometime 30 ppl rather roam around during primetime instead of grouping up and playing proper builds and classes (which ranger/thief, in Wvw, are not.) > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" well, but especially this "pure dmg" comming from the ascended armor + infusion availability peaks damage in wvw more. and ranger has mobility and quick dmg, despite man things got their damage partly stripped or fully nerfed way harder. for example, it was a mistake to nerf firebrand damage equally as others. it was a mistake to nerf herald hammer 5, bc its a very slow cc with obvious animation. > > people acting as if Wvw and spvp are even remotely the same things are just misunderstanding much of how either format works, i guess. i'm not spvp pro or sth, only grabbed a metabuild and played to gold rank in the last three weeks, since matchups make Wvw partially dead (thanks for no alliances, dear anet), therefore i cannot 100% speak wisdom in concerns of spvp balancing, but i think it's overall still similarily playable than it was before. Wvw changed towards some classes beeing unable to kill anything now. meta wasn't balanced, not top tier uses been balanced there. > > but Wvw and balance do not suit anyways. it's not safe space pvp. > > you have a ton of factors, also food, allies, keep buffs, sheer experience (theres not only plat VS plat, gold VS gold, silver VS silver etc playing... every rank runs around in Wvw. and unlike spvp divisions, wvw ranks tells u not a lot. old players can be more casual but having higher old meta farmed ranks kinda. others are based pros. hard to to classifiy by just this. servertiers are worthless in wvw as well, tells u nothing therefore. I see no reason to keep up this narrative of ranger and thief in WvW as is roaming means anything in the gamemode, all you do is build as glass cannon and "gank" people while they're using zerg builds but...the moment the zerg professions build for "roaming", ranger and thief become completely worthless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme.3164 Posted February 8, 2021 Author Share Posted February 8, 2021 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > Honestly this post highlights a serious issue, that soulbeast in WvW needs to be brought much closer to PvP and should be nerfed in WvW. > > > > > > Not joking, PvP and WvW balance should be incredibly close in my opinion, most things that are too strong in one mode can be changed in a way that fixes it in one mode and is no change to the other....assuming the skills team graciously allows the balance team to make a change. > > > > Really the only things that WvW ranger has over PvP ranger are : > > > > 1) Dolyak stance > > 2) Celestial form CD from 20 down to 10 > > 3) Regen traits having longer base duration > > > > For the rest it's basically the same as in PvP, the pets and dmg have been nerfed universally for the class and therefore if you'd change the last things this class has in WvW, same should happen to everybody else like : condi herald , necro and **grenade holo** especially that still enjoy unnerfed values like ranger > > Yes and it should be the same for all. You and I are in agreement. But that would not change anything in the grand scheme of things in the end anyway if you think about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > Honestly this post highlights a serious issue, that soulbeast in WvW needs to be brought much closer to PvP and should be nerfed in WvW. > > > > > > > > Not joking, PvP and WvW balance should be incredibly close in my opinion, most things that are too strong in one mode can be changed in a way that fixes it in one mode and is no change to the other....assuming the skills team graciously allows the balance team to make a change. > > > > > > Really the only things that WvW ranger has over PvP ranger are : > > > > > > 1) Dolyak stance > > > 2) Celestial form CD from 20 down to 10 > > > 3) Regen traits having longer base duration > > > > > > For the rest it's basically the same as in PvP, the pets and dmg have been nerfed universally for the class and therefore if you'd change the last things this class has in WvW, same should happen to everybody else like : condi herald , necro and **grenade holo** especially that still enjoy unnerfed values like ranger > > > > Yes and it should be the same for all. You and I are in agreement. > > But that would not change anything in the grand scheme of things in the end anyway if you think about it Then why create the thread in the first place? The other classes need bringing down too, you'd know this if you've seen what the small groups are like at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme.3164 Posted February 8, 2021 Author Share Posted February 8, 2021 > @"SexyMofo.8923" said: > It could be worse: you can get 1 dodge taken away likes messers. You are right, it could be that bad, that's another very questionable change from Anet when many mesmers had already pointed out the issue with condi mirage....I just don't get them, they have this practice of nerfing everything around the real issue which ends up destroying the basic design concept of the spec/class -Like how they nerfed Druid repeatedly instead than remove **Ancient seed** or how they removed the unblockable from Soulbeast instead than lowering/removing **Dmg modifiers and Sic'em**, nerfing pet dmg instead than transfer part of it to ranger itself and turn pets into utility rather than first nerf pet dmg....then the ranger dmg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamikharzeeh.8016 Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 well but that ganking is what people build their classes for. condi rev classes are also highly feared amongst the thief players in wvw, but its not like u could even build-swap within a second while the ranger/thief demounts your glassy hammer zergset rev. if the ranger hides, it can pew pew u straight into downstate (warclaw has litearlly no armor, hammer herald can 111 it down, in three hits roughly) therefore any heavy dmg nerf for those two classes is fine imo. they don't do anything in largescale, so why'd u bring them to largescale and expect to be carried (or getting the 3v1s against ppl player another game as u do) and the people who seek duels in wvw became rare anyways. 1/20 respects that ur not playing a 1v1 specs, the others just gank you. i also honestly don't know what roamers like about roaming, since 5 ppl roamergroups became seen more often, cannot be even fun anymore either way. (and yeah that's a vicious circle... ppl gank in three thief/ranger groups, other ppl bring 5 groups with "pocket healers" to roam, next group brings 8-10 ppl... and for those you'll need 20 ppl (if the 10 are a guild with class balance). ppl could just accept the meta of Wvw, which starts at fighting guilds of size 20~ up to 60 players on metabuilds. any cloud of pvp builds against a zerg or blob trades extremly bad. and its not fun for the blob either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme.3164 Posted February 8, 2021 Author Share Posted February 8, 2021 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > Honestly this post highlights a serious issue, that soulbeast in WvW needs to be brought much closer to PvP and should be nerfed in WvW. > > > > > > > > > > Not joking, PvP and WvW balance should be incredibly close in my opinion, most things that are too strong in one mode can be changed in a way that fixes it in one mode and is no change to the other....assuming the skills team graciously allows the balance team to make a change. > > > > > > > > Really the only things that WvW ranger has over PvP ranger are : > > > > > > > > 1) Dolyak stance > > > > 2) Celestial form CD from 20 down to 10 > > > > 3) Regen traits having longer base duration > > > > > > > > For the rest it's basically the same as in PvP, the pets and dmg have been nerfed universally for the class and therefore if you'd change the last things this class has in WvW, same should happen to everybody else like : condi herald , necro and **grenade holo** especially that still enjoy unnerfed values like ranger > > > > > > Yes and it should be the same for all. You and I are in agreement. > > > > But that would not change anything in the grand scheme of things in the end anyway if you think about it > > Then why create the thread in the first place? > > The other classes need bringing down too, you'd know this if you've seen what the small groups are like at the moment. > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > Honestly this post highlights a serious issue, that soulbeast in WvW needs to be brought much closer to PvP and should be nerfed in WvW. > > > > > > > > > > Not joking, PvP and WvW balance should be incredibly close in my opinion, most things that are too strong in one mode can be changed in a way that fixes it in one mode and is no change to the other....assuming the skills team graciously allows the balance team to make a change. > > > > > > > > Really the only things that WvW ranger has over PvP ranger are : > > > > > > > > 1) Dolyak stance > > > > 2) Celestial form CD from 20 down to 10 > > > > 3) Regen traits having longer base duration > > > > > > > > For the rest it's basically the same as in PvP, the pets and dmg have been nerfed universally for the class and therefore if you'd change the last things this class has in WvW, same should happen to everybody else like : condi herald , necro and **grenade holo** especially that still enjoy unnerfed values like ranger > > > > > > Yes and it should be the same for all. You and I are in agreement. > > > > But that would not change anything in the grand scheme of things in the end anyway if you think about it > > Then why create the thread in the first place? > > The other classes need bringing down too, you'd know this if you've seen what the small groups are like at the moment. Because I believe that even with unnerfed values , the ranger class would still not see major play in PvP , we removed boonbeast- bird tank -bunker druid and sic'em burst and that's great! So why go and double tap on the only useful stance soulbeast has left? Even with a 40s CD dolyak stance there would be no boonbeast , no bunker ..nothing of what happened in the past but at the very least the spec would be more useful for general PvP outside the +1 glass meme The main reason to use soulbeast is to gain access to an additional source of stability which the class severely lacks, if you want you can go and remove the dmg/condi reduction effects it wouldn't matter ...the stability is the main thing. And lastly Druid : why the double CD on the main mechanic of the entire spec? Necros don't get a 20s CD to access reaper and desert shroud - tempest don't have to wait 30s to overload...so the druid change really makes no sense, you can go and change the actual traits that make druid strong, reduce their duration/effect in PvP..but allow rangers to access the druid mechanic with the same 10s CD across all game modes Finally yeah, I know the composition of "roaming" gank team and applying the same changes we have in PvP, would not change that I am afraid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme.3164 Posted February 8, 2021 Author Share Posted February 8, 2021 > @"kamikharzeeh.8016" said: > well but that ganking is what people build their classes for. condi rev classes are also highly feared amongst the thief players in wvw, but its not like u could even build-swap within a second while the ranger/thief demounts your glassy hammer zergset rev. if the ranger hides, it can pew pew u straight into downstate (warclaw has litearlly no armor, hammer herald can 111 it down, in three hits roughly) > > therefore any heavy dmg nerf for those two classes is fine imo. they don't do anything in largescale, so why'd u bring them to largescale and expect to be carried (or getting the 3v1s against ppl player another game as u do) > > and the people who seek duels in wvw became rare anyways. 1/20 respects that ur not playing a 1v1 specs, the others just gank you. i also honestly don't know what roamers like about roaming, since 5 ppl roamergroups became seen more often, cannot be even fun anymore either way. > (and yeah that's a vicious circle... ppl gank in three thief/ranger groups, other ppl bring 5 groups with "pocket healers" to roam, next group brings 8-10 ppl... and for those you'll need 20 ppl (if the 10 are a guild with class balance). > > ppl could just accept the meta of Wvw, which starts at fighting guilds of size 20~ up to 60 players on metabuilds. any cloud of pvp builds against a zerg or blob trades extremly bad. and its not fun for the blob either. It would be great if all professions had zerg ready builds, sadly ranger and thief don't have the luxury...that's why they focus so much on "roaming" which has you correctly explained...makes little sense in the grand scheme of things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > Honestly this post highlights a serious issue, that soulbeast in WvW needs to be brought much closer to PvP and should be nerfed in WvW. > > > > > > > > > > > > Not joking, PvP and WvW balance should be incredibly close in my opinion, most things that are too strong in one mode can be changed in a way that fixes it in one mode and is no change to the other....assuming the skills team graciously allows the balance team to make a change. > > > > > > > > > > Really the only things that WvW ranger has over PvP ranger are : > > > > > > > > > > 1) Dolyak stance > > > > > 2) Celestial form CD from 20 down to 10 > > > > > 3) Regen traits having longer base duration > > > > > > > > > > For the rest it's basically the same as in PvP, the pets and dmg have been nerfed universally for the class and therefore if you'd change the last things this class has in WvW, same should happen to everybody else like : condi herald , necro and **grenade holo** especially that still enjoy unnerfed values like ranger > > > > > > > > Yes and it should be the same for all. You and I are in agreement. > > > > > > But that would not change anything in the grand scheme of things in the end anyway if you think about it > > > > Then why create the thread in the first place? > > > > The other classes need bringing down too, you'd know this if you've seen what the small groups are like at the moment. > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > Honestly this post highlights a serious issue, that soulbeast in WvW needs to be brought much closer to PvP and should be nerfed in WvW. > > > > > > > > > > > > Not joking, PvP and WvW balance should be incredibly close in my opinion, most things that are too strong in one mode can be changed in a way that fixes it in one mode and is no change to the other....assuming the skills team graciously allows the balance team to make a change. > > > > > > > > > > Really the only things that WvW ranger has over PvP ranger are : > > > > > > > > > > 1) Dolyak stance > > > > > 2) Celestial form CD from 20 down to 10 > > > > > 3) Regen traits having longer base duration > > > > > > > > > > For the rest it's basically the same as in PvP, the pets and dmg have been nerfed universally for the class and therefore if you'd change the last things this class has in WvW, same should happen to everybody else like : condi herald , necro and **grenade holo** especially that still enjoy unnerfed values like ranger > > > > > > > > Yes and it should be the same for all. You and I are in agreement. > > > > > > But that would not change anything in the grand scheme of things in the end anyway if you think about it > > > > Then why create the thread in the first place? > > > > The other classes need bringing down too, you'd know this if you've seen what the small groups are like at the moment. > > Because I believe that even with unnerfed values , the ranger class would still not see major play in PvP , we removed boonbeast- bird tank -bunker druid and sic'em burst and that's great! So why go and double tap on the only useful stance soulbeast has left? Even with a 40s CD dolyak stance there would be no boonbeast , no bunker ..nothing of what happened in the past but at the very least the spec would be more useful for general PvP outside the +1 glass meme > > The main reason to use soulbeast is to gain access to an additional source of stability which the class severely lacks, if you want you can go and remove the dmg/condi reduction effects it wouldn't matter ...the stability is the main thing. > > And lastly Druid : why the double CD on the main mechanic of the entire spec? Necros don't get a 20s CD to access reaper and desert shroud - tempest don't have to wait 30s to overload...so the druid change really makes no sense, you can go and change the actual traits that make druid strong, reduce their duration/effect in PvP..but allow rangers to access the druid mechanic with the same 10s CD across all game modes > > Finally yeah, I know the composition of "roaming" gank team and applying the same changes we have in PvP, would not change that I am afraid Almost non of this has anything to do with the price of chips. Continuity between game modes is what I was saying. Regardless of the state of (in) balance, do you agree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme.3164 Posted February 8, 2021 Author Share Posted February 8, 2021 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > Honestly this post highlights a serious issue, that soulbeast in WvW needs to be brought much closer to PvP and should be nerfed in WvW. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not joking, PvP and WvW balance should be incredibly close in my opinion, most things that are too strong in one mode can be changed in a way that fixes it in one mode and is no change to the other....assuming the skills team graciously allows the balance team to make a change. > > > > > > > > > > > > Really the only things that WvW ranger has over PvP ranger are : > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Dolyak stance > > > > > > 2) Celestial form CD from 20 down to 10 > > > > > > 3) Regen traits having longer base duration > > > > > > > > > > > > For the rest it's basically the same as in PvP, the pets and dmg have been nerfed universally for the class and therefore if you'd change the last things this class has in WvW, same should happen to everybody else like : condi herald , necro and **grenade holo** especially that still enjoy unnerfed values like ranger > > > > > > > > > > Yes and it should be the same for all. You and I are in agreement. > > > > > > > > But that would not change anything in the grand scheme of things in the end anyway if you think about it > > > > > > Then why create the thread in the first place? > > > > > > The other classes need bringing down too, you'd know this if you've seen what the small groups are like at the moment. > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said: > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > Honestly this post highlights a serious issue, that soulbeast in WvW needs to be brought much closer to PvP and should be nerfed in WvW. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not joking, PvP and WvW balance should be incredibly close in my opinion, most things that are too strong in one mode can be changed in a way that fixes it in one mode and is no change to the other....assuming the skills team graciously allows the balance team to make a change. > > > > > > > > > > > > Really the only things that WvW ranger has over PvP ranger are : > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Dolyak stance > > > > > > 2) Celestial form CD from 20 down to 10 > > > > > > 3) Regen traits having longer base duration > > > > > > > > > > > > For the rest it's basically the same as in PvP, the pets and dmg have been nerfed universally for the class and therefore if you'd change the last things this class has in WvW, same should happen to everybody else like : condi herald , necro and **grenade holo** especially that still enjoy unnerfed values like ranger > > > > > > > > > > Yes and it should be the same for all. You and I are in agreement. > > > > > > > > But that would not change anything in the grand scheme of things in the end anyway if you think about it > > > > > > Then why create the thread in the first place? > > > > > > The other classes need bringing down too, you'd know this if you've seen what the small groups are like at the moment. > > > > Because I believe that even with unnerfed values , the ranger class would still not see major play in PvP , we removed boonbeast- bird tank -bunker druid and sic'em burst and that's great! So why go and double tap on the only useful stance soulbeast has left? Even with a 40s CD dolyak stance there would be no boonbeast , no bunker ..nothing of what happened in the past but at the very least the spec would be more useful for general PvP outside the +1 glass meme > > > > The main reason to use soulbeast is to gain access to an additional source of stability which the class severely lacks, if you want you can go and remove the dmg/condi reduction effects it wouldn't matter ...the stability is the main thing. > > > > And lastly Druid : why the double CD on the main mechanic of the entire spec? Necros don't get a 20s CD to access reaper and desert shroud - tempest don't have to wait 30s to overload...so the druid change really makes no sense, you can go and change the actual traits that make druid strong, reduce their duration/effect in PvP..but allow rangers to access the druid mechanic with the same 10s CD across all game modes > > > > Finally yeah, I know the composition of "roaming" gank team and applying the same changes we have in PvP, would not change that I am afraid > > Almost non of this has anything to do with the price of chips. > > Continuity between game modes is what I was saying. Regardless of the state of (in) balance, do you agree? Continuity between game modes ofc makes sense on its own but..you must consider all the gear choices players have access to in WvW compared to PvP, you simply cannot touch that, how could you? If you want to go and balance wvw like pvp, you can do so with professions but the gear choices will still make up for great part of the "imbalance" which is anyway the main attraction of the game mode You can't just remove gear and refund people, who spent thousand and thousand of gold throughout the years since launch but we can still have that "continuity" if Anet stops applying drastic changes between game modes, anything in the realm of 20-30% would be acceptable and logical.....50-60% difference is simply overkill and completely changes the way a class/spec is played Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CutesySylveon.8290 Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > Honestly this post highlights a serious issue, that soulbeast in WvW needs to be brought much closer to PvP and should be nerfed in WvW. > > > > > > > > > > Not joking, PvP and WvW balance should be incredibly close in my opinion, most things that are too strong in one mode can be changed in a way that fixes it in one mode and is no change to the other....assuming the skills team graciously allows the balance team to make a change. > > > > > > > > Absolutely not, they're completely different game modes that function on completely different criteria and have their own metas. You can't balance a giant open map game mode with 50+ people per 3 sides with a 5v5 game mode standard. This also isn't even taking into account that every stat, rune, and sigil is available and unnerfed in WvW. > > > > > > I know there are differences but as the OP stated in the very first post, the difference between the 2 modes can be very extreme, I'm not saying they need to be identical but they should be as close as possible and where there are differences they should be as subtle as possible. > > > > > > WvW _will never be balanced_ due to different runes, sigils and stats no matter how you try but a more unified balance will ease the dev work as it's 1 set of balance rules instead of 2 (devs have already demonstrated they cannot pump out balance patches on a consistent basis for the multiple modes we have) as well as reducing the shock of cross pollination of players from PvP to WvW and vice versa. > > > > > > > > > > We had that before and it was extremely frustrating for WvW to suffer because PvP got changes. You can't balance both with the same criteria because it will always be by sPvP standards, making WvW players get the short end of the stick every time. The balance differences need to be as drastic as the game modes demand, which is extreme. > > > > There should be a shock between going to the different game modes, just as it is from PvE to any other mode; you’re going to a completely different game mode and have to adjust to how it functions. > > You're incorrect, we had unified balance between **PvE**, WvW and PvP where competitive balance as a whole was shafted due to PvE. Now we have 2 balance modes, PvE where everything is flat out broken and powercrept and competitive where PvP and WvW are more closely aligned but still have major outliers, some of which have caused major problems like 10 target skills making WvW unplayable at times. > > I am firmly of the belief that skills should not be wildly different moving from 1 game mode to another, I shouldn't have almost half the cool down on one skill in a competitive mode vs another one simply because....? Really some of them have no reason like Dolyak stance where it's over nerfed in PvP but left broken in WvW when the middle ground of 45s cool down would make it an option in both. > > I guess I disagree with extremism though. How can you firmly believe skills should have little differences when the game modes they are being balanced around are completely different? You're advocating extremism yourself, an extremely homogenized balance philosophy that **will always be done in favor of sPvP.** Skills have completely different uses and interactions between the game modes because of the specific environments they're used in. WvW has an infinite number of other potentials to account for as I've already stated, sPvP is tightly controlled and can be much more finely tuned for that environment and specific changes will carry from sPvP, where balance is primarily based on, into WvW which will only be a negative. Did hammer rev need to be nerfed in sPvP because it was strong, and quite literally only used, in WvW? Absolutely not, the changes should have been WvW specific, as should any changes made to potentially make it better in sPvP but not WvW. Again, you're going to a completely different game mode with completely different rules and a completely different meta, so stop trying to take a mindset from another game mode to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > Honestly this post highlights a serious issue, that soulbeast in WvW needs to be brought much closer to PvP and should be nerfed in WvW. > > > > > > > > > > > > Not joking, PvP and WvW balance should be incredibly close in my opinion, most things that are too strong in one mode can be changed in a way that fixes it in one mode and is no change to the other....assuming the skills team graciously allows the balance team to make a change. > > > > > > > > > > Absolutely not, they're completely different game modes that function on completely different criteria and have their own metas. You can't balance a giant open map game mode with 50+ people per 3 sides with a 5v5 game mode standard. This also isn't even taking into account that every stat, rune, and sigil is available and unnerfed in WvW. > > > > > > > > I know there are differences but as the OP stated in the very first post, the difference between the 2 modes can be very extreme, I'm not saying they need to be identical but they should be as close as possible and where there are differences they should be as subtle as possible. > > > > > > > > WvW _will never be balanced_ due to different runes, sigils and stats no matter how you try but a more unified balance will ease the dev work as it's 1 set of balance rules instead of 2 (devs have already demonstrated they cannot pump out balance patches on a consistent basis for the multiple modes we have) as well as reducing the shock of cross pollination of players from PvP to WvW and vice versa. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We had that before and it was extremely frustrating for WvW to suffer because PvP got changes. You can't balance both with the same criteria because it will always be by sPvP standards, making WvW players get the short end of the stick every time. The balance differences need to be as drastic as the game modes demand, which is extreme. > > > > > > There should be a shock between going to the different game modes, just as it is from PvE to any other mode; you’re going to a completely different game mode and have to adjust to how it functions. > > > > You're incorrect, we had unified balance between **PvE**, WvW and PvP where competitive balance as a whole was shafted due to PvE. Now we have 2 balance modes, PvE where everything is flat out broken and powercrept and competitive where PvP and WvW are more closely aligned but still have major outliers, some of which have caused major problems like 10 target skills making WvW unplayable at times. > > > > I am firmly of the belief that skills should not be wildly different moving from 1 game mode to another, I shouldn't have almost half the cool down on one skill in a competitive mode vs another one simply because....? Really some of them have no reason like Dolyak stance where it's over nerfed in PvP but left broken in WvW when the middle ground of 45s cool down would make it an option in both. > > > > I guess I disagree with extremism though. > > How can you firmly believe skills should have little differences when the game modes they are being balanced around are completely different? You're advocating extremism yourself, an extremely homogenized balance philosophy that **will always be done in favor of sPvP.** > > Skills have completely different uses and interactions between the game modes because of the specific environments they're used in. WvW has an infinite number of other potentials to account for as I've already stated, sPvP is tightly controlled and can be much more finely tuned for that environment and specific changes will carry from sPvP, where balance is primarily based on, into WvW which will only be a negative. Did hammer rev need to be nerfed in sPvP because it was strong, and quite literally only used, in WvW? Absolutely not, the changes should have been WvW specific, as should any changes made to potentially make it better in sPvP but not WvW. > > Again, you're going to a completely different game mode with completely different rules and a completely different meta, so stop trying to take a mindset from another game mode to it. It's because I'm not so sightless that I don't realise that we have 61 traits, over 60 skills per class on 9 classes. Skills and traits can never be in a state where they are useful everywhere. There will always be a "meta" pick and configuration but with the amount of combinations in the game there's room for builds to perform differently across multiple game modes **and skills/traits still be the same across all competitve modes.** Onto your specific example of Rev. Was hammer meta on rev in PvP before it was nerfed? No. Was it meta after? No. Did Anything realistically change for Rev in PvP? No. This is the problem with people complaining about "my stuff got nerfed for X game mode" it was a bad build before and it stays a bad build but is addressed where it matters and doesn't perform unexpectedly different between the modes. **In other words using a knife to drink soup is bad and always was bad** The rules are different? The lack of a node, that's about it. Win condition left WvW a loooong time ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UmbraNoctis.1907 Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 Ranger might not be the only class with weaker traits and skills in PvP compared to WvW, but it (core and druid to be more specific) still has a very unique penalty in both game modes - the possibility to lose access to it's class mehanic for up to one minute, with very limited options to prevent this from happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CutesySylveon.8290 Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > Honestly this post highlights a serious issue, that soulbeast in WvW needs to be brought much closer to PvP and should be nerfed in WvW. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not joking, PvP and WvW balance should be incredibly close in my opinion, most things that are too strong in one mode can be changed in a way that fixes it in one mode and is no change to the other....assuming the skills team graciously allows the balance team to make a change. > > > > > > > > > > > > Absolutely not, they're completely different game modes that function on completely different criteria and have their own metas. You can't balance a giant open map game mode with 50+ people per 3 sides with a 5v5 game mode standard. This also isn't even taking into account that every stat, rune, and sigil is available and unnerfed in WvW. > > > > > > > > > > I know there are differences but as the OP stated in the very first post, the difference between the 2 modes can be very extreme, I'm not saying they need to be identical but they should be as close as possible and where there are differences they should be as subtle as possible. > > > > > > > > > > WvW _will never be balanced_ due to different runes, sigils and stats no matter how you try but a more unified balance will ease the dev work as it's 1 set of balance rules instead of 2 (devs have already demonstrated they cannot pump out balance patches on a consistent basis for the multiple modes we have) as well as reducing the shock of cross pollination of players from PvP to WvW and vice versa. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We had that before and it was extremely frustrating for WvW to suffer because PvP got changes. You can't balance both with the same criteria because it will always be by sPvP standards, making WvW players get the short end of the stick every time. The balance differences need to be as drastic as the game modes demand, which is extreme. > > > > > > > > There should be a shock between going to the different game modes, just as it is from PvE to any other mode; you’re going to a completely different game mode and have to adjust to how it functions. > > > > > > You're incorrect, we had unified balance between **PvE**, WvW and PvP where competitive balance as a whole was shafted due to PvE. Now we have 2 balance modes, PvE where everything is flat out broken and powercrept and competitive where PvP and WvW are more closely aligned but still have major outliers, some of which have caused major problems like 10 target skills making WvW unplayable at times. > > > > > > I am firmly of the belief that skills should not be wildly different moving from 1 game mode to another, I shouldn't have almost half the cool down on one skill in a competitive mode vs another one simply because....? Really some of them have no reason like Dolyak stance where it's over nerfed in PvP but left broken in WvW when the middle ground of 45s cool down would make it an option in both. > > > > > > I guess I disagree with extremism though. > > > > How can you firmly believe skills should have little differences when the game modes they are being balanced around are completely different? You're advocating extremism yourself, an extremely homogenized balance philosophy that **will always be done in favor of sPvP.** > > > > Skills have completely different uses and interactions between the game modes because of the specific environments they're used in. WvW has an infinite number of other potentials to account for as I've already stated, sPvP is tightly controlled and can be much more finely tuned for that environment and specific changes will carry from sPvP, where balance is primarily based on, into WvW which will only be a negative. Did hammer rev need to be nerfed in sPvP because it was strong, and quite literally only used, in WvW? Absolutely not, the changes should have been WvW specific, as should any changes made to potentially make it better in sPvP but not WvW. > > > > Again, you're going to a completely different game mode with completely different rules and a completely different meta, so stop trying to take a mindset from another game mode to it. > > It's because I'm not so sightless that I don't realise that we have 61 traits, over 60 skills per class on 9 classes. Skills and traits can never be in a state where they are useful everywhere. There will always be a "meta" pick and configuration but with the amount of combinations in the game there's room for builds to perform differently across multiple game modes **and skills/traits still be the same across all competitve modes.** > > Onto your specific example of Rev. Was hammer meta on rev in PvP before it was nerfed? No. Was it meta after? No. Did Anything realistically change for Rev in PvP? No. This is the problem with people complaining about "my stuff got nerfed for X game mode" it was a bad build before and it stays a bad build but is addressed where it matters and doesn't perform unexpectedly different between the modes. > > **In other words using a knife to drink soup is bad and always was bad** > > The rules are different? The lack of a node, that's about it. Win condition left WvW a loooong time ago. You might not be sightless to miss the amount of skills and traits, but you certainly are to the uses and performances between modes and the reason split balance is necessary. Again, for the third time, ***sPvP will be the standard all balance is done by and WvW shouldn't be balanced by the same rules.*** What's a problem in one isn't in another for any number of reasons, so a one size fits all approach is downright ridiculous. The example with rev is to show why split balance is necessary if we want to have things be usable between modes when they're primarily used in one. Was Rev hammer meta in sPvP? No, and now it's even worse in that mode due to no fault of its own and ***can't improve because it will be a problem in WvW.*** Of course not everything can be meta, but the idea that it should be worse in one mode because it's strong in another is lazy and shows a complete disregard for any potential of making it usable where it's not used. Anet SHOULD try to make hammer usable in sPvP but if they don't split balance, it means it will always be held captive by WvW. Pretty much every other instance will just be mode reversed, something is a problem in sPvP and it gets nerfed in WvW where it wasn't an issue or even unusable, making it worse and further forcing everyone into specific sets. The rules are very different. WvW can have 150+ people on a map at any time with siege, structures, completely different stat and build availability, while sPvP is 5v5 in a much more tightly controlled environment. In other words, ***stop trying to use a spoon to eat what you need a fork for.*** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Ketsu.4569 Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 Every class is balanced around by some form of resource mechanic. On Necromancer, Thief, or Revenant, their resource is obvious. But on classes like Ele or Ranger, it's a bit harder to immediately notice until you understand the class. In the case of Ranger, **your pet** is your resource. You have a companion that beats people up for you, regardless of what you are doing, and provides a small secondary set of skills. This is why Ranger is balanced to have slightly longer cooldowns, because if they didn't then they would effectively have a free DPS companion with no downside. Imagine if Ranger had the same cooldowns as Revenant, despite having no energy system. That of course would be completely broken and there would be zero reason to play any class other than Ranger. This is actually the very reason pre-nerf GS4 was considered an overpowered skill between oct 2019 and feb 2020 - it came with a CC attached to it, on only a 15s CD making it objectively the best block skill in the game, and as an added bonus you could have your pet smack people while you kited around with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said: > Every class is balanced around by some form of resource mechanic. On Necromancer, Thief, or Revenant, their resource is obvious. But on classes like Ele or Ranger, it's a bit harder to immediately notice until you understand the class. > > In the case of Ranger, **your pet** is your resource. You have a companion that beats people up for you, regardless of what you are doing, and provides a small secondary set of skills. This is why Ranger is balanced to have slightly longer cooldowns, because if they didn't then they would effectively have a free DPS companion with no downside. Imagine if Ranger had the same cooldowns as Revenant, despite having no energy system. That of course would be completely broken and there would be zero reason to play any class other than Ranger. This is actually the very reason pre-nerf GS4 was considered an overpowered skill between oct 2019 and feb 2020 - it came with a CC attached to it, on only a 15s CD making it objectively the best block skill in the game, and as an added bonus you could have your pet smack people while you kited around with it. I disagree, pet is the main reason you are wrong. Other classes have reliable class mechanics, ranger doesnt, I have noticed it after trying the ranged pet. When I tell it to start its " rapid fire " It doesnt give a fuck that he has no LOS or is not in range, he will hit air, tiger doesnt care that you are about walk off ledge it will waste its leap etc. THIS is why ranger skills have LOW cds and are STILL lacking. maul has freaking 6,75s cd traited, rapid fire is like what, 10s ? Those are not long cooldowns at all. Big part of ranger issue is that its power budget is lodged in a pet that sometimes will do its job too well and sometimes just... not. And it feels bad both ways, it sucks to get hit for 7k by fucking puncing pet, and it equally sucks to have 1min duel and realize that top damage is fucking jarakanda call lightning cuz all your skills are easy to dodge/mitigate. Pets cut both ways. Soulbeast was a way to try and make ranger good without reliance on pets but they fucked it up, IMO slb should have 2 pets, and have pet stats HEAVILY nerfed, and only rely on them for utility, and spend most of its time merged. but thats just me. Ranger issue will persist as always. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > Honestly this post highlights a serious issue, that soulbeast in WvW needs to be brought much closer to PvP and should be nerfed in WvW. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not joking, PvP and WvW balance should be incredibly close in my opinion, most things that are too strong in one mode can be changed in a way that fixes it in one mode and is no change to the other....assuming the skills team graciously allows the balance team to make a change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Absolutely not, they're completely different game modes that function on completely different criteria and have their own metas. You can't balance a giant open map game mode with 50+ people per 3 sides with a 5v5 game mode standard. This also isn't even taking into account that every stat, rune, and sigil is available and unnerfed in WvW. > > > > > > > > > > > > I know there are differences but as the OP stated in the very first post, the difference between the 2 modes can be very extreme, I'm not saying they need to be identical but they should be as close as possible and where there are differences they should be as subtle as possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > WvW _will never be balanced_ due to different runes, sigils and stats no matter how you try but a more unified balance will ease the dev work as it's 1 set of balance rules instead of 2 (devs have already demonstrated they cannot pump out balance patches on a consistent basis for the multiple modes we have) as well as reducing the shock of cross pollination of players from PvP to WvW and vice versa. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We had that before and it was extremely frustrating for WvW to suffer because PvP got changes. You can't balance both with the same criteria because it will always be by sPvP standards, making WvW players get the short end of the stick every time. The balance differences need to be as drastic as the game modes demand, which is extreme. > > > > > > > > > > There should be a shock between going to the different game modes, just as it is from PvE to any other mode; you’re going to a completely different game mode and have to adjust to how it functions. > > > > > > > > You're incorrect, we had unified balance between **PvE**, WvW and PvP where competitive balance as a whole was shafted due to PvE. Now we have 2 balance modes, PvE where everything is flat out broken and powercrept and competitive where PvP and WvW are more closely aligned but still have major outliers, some of which have caused major problems like 10 target skills making WvW unplayable at times. > > > > > > > > I am firmly of the belief that skills should not be wildly different moving from 1 game mode to another, I shouldn't have almost half the cool down on one skill in a competitive mode vs another one simply because....? Really some of them have no reason like Dolyak stance where it's over nerfed in PvP but left broken in WvW when the middle ground of 45s cool down would make it an option in both. > > > > > > > > I guess I disagree with extremism though. > > > > > > How can you firmly believe skills should have little differences when the game modes they are being balanced around are completely different? You're advocating extremism yourself, an extremely homogenized balance philosophy that **will always be done in favor of sPvP.** > > > > > > Skills have completely different uses and interactions between the game modes because of the specific environments they're used in. WvW has an infinite number of other potentials to account for as I've already stated, sPvP is tightly controlled and can be much more finely tuned for that environment and specific changes will carry from sPvP, where balance is primarily based on, into WvW which will only be a negative. Did hammer rev need to be nerfed in sPvP because it was strong, and quite literally only used, in WvW? Absolutely not, the changes should have been WvW specific, as should any changes made to potentially make it better in sPvP but not WvW. > > > > > > Again, you're going to a completely different game mode with completely different rules and a completely different meta, so stop trying to take a mindset from another game mode to it. > > > > It's because I'm not so sightless that I don't realise that we have 61 traits, over 60 skills per class on 9 classes. Skills and traits can never be in a state where they are useful everywhere. There will always be a "meta" pick and configuration but with the amount of combinations in the game there's room for builds to perform differently across multiple game modes **and skills/traits still be the same across all competitve modes.** > > > > Onto your specific example of Rev. Was hammer meta on rev in PvP before it was nerfed? No. Was it meta after? No. Did Anything realistically change for Rev in PvP? No. This is the problem with people complaining about "my stuff got nerfed for X game mode" it was a bad build before and it stays a bad build but is addressed where it matters and doesn't perform unexpectedly different between the modes. > > > > **In other words using a knife to drink soup is bad and always was bad** > > > > The rules are different? The lack of a node, that's about it. Win condition left WvW a loooong time ago. > > You might not be sightless to miss the amount of skills and traits, but you certainly are to the uses and performances between modes and the reason split balance is necessary. Again, for the third time, ***sPvP will be the standard all balance is done by and WvW shouldn't be balanced by the same rules.*** What's a problem in one isn't in another for any number of reasons, so a one size fits all approach is downright ridiculous. > > The example with rev is to show why split balance is necessary if we want to have things be usable between modes when they're primarily used in one. Was Rev hammer meta in sPvP? No, and now it's even worse in that mode due to no fault of its own and ***can't improve because it will be a problem in WvW.*** Of course not everything can be meta, but the idea that it should be worse in one mode because it's strong in another is lazy and shows a complete disregard for any potential of making it usable where it's not used. Anet SHOULD try to make hammer usable in sPvP but if they don't split balance, it means it will always be held captive by WvW. Pretty much every other instance will just be mode reversed, something is a problem in sPvP and it gets nerfed in WvW where it wasn't an issue or even unusable, making it worse and further forcing everyone into specific sets. > > The rules are very different. WvW can have 150+ people on a map at any time with siege, structures, completely different stat and build availability, while sPvP is 5v5 in a much more tightly controlled environment. In other words, ***stop trying to use a spoon to eat what you need a fork for.*** Rev hammer still? You can still use rev hammer in PvP it's just very rarely going to be meta. Thing is, rev has several other weapons much more suited to the game mode and that is a realistic expectation of balance. Not that every weapon is a good pick in every mode but that every class has multiple options in the game modes, so once again why are you trying to eat soup with a knife? You're literally only looking at zerg combat, a lot of fights and battles happen outside of that where being closer to PvP balance has always been better. Additionally zergs are made up of sub groups of 5, the reality is that it's not 50 vs 50 it is 5x10 vs 5x10 and this is assuming it is somewhat organised which is not the norm unless you're on the flavour of the month server. Often it's not even that, the groups are made up of 2 support and 2 damage then extra damage or utility in terms of function. The desciding factor is generally if what you're using is AoE and so can overlap to outside your party if required, this is not present in PvP due to the 5 player limit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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