A desperate plea from those of us downed.

[UmbraNoctis.1907]

> @"Dinas Dragonbane.2978" said:

> Is this large or small scale? In large scale figts downs barely seem to matter as 85% of the time those are dead in the repeated aoe on top of them. In small you have to play smarter but securing stomps or cleaving well makes way more difference there.

> The game has added in more ways to kill people with each expansion, downstate has stayed relatively the same since 2012, if you are still having problems against stationary targets(except ele mesmers and thieves, and underwater but wait all wvw players suffer there) that have 4 skills available to them, no advice on these forums is likely to assist you, call for that deletion.

 

Downstate matters a lot in both large and smallscale fights. Mainly because it favours superior numbers and fights in WvW are rarely even. It also gives players more time to tag enemies in zerg fights, making it easier to recieve loot without having to contribute to the actual fight in a meaningful way. And when considering that dmg (and to some extent also sustain) of "alive" players did get heavily nerfed but downstate and ressing are still untouched, it is hard to call it balanced know. Unlike you want to tell me, downstate was underpowered in the past. Which it never was, even when dmg output was like twice as high.

 

Srsly, the tankyness of a downed player who is getting ressed by someone else is insane compared to a "standing" player and some are even dealing more dmg while lying on the ground, supposedly being close to death. Kinda ridiculous, isn't it?

[Justine.6351]

> @"Kovu.7560" said:

> > @"Junkpile.7439" said:

> > Killed one core ranger in water and then we tried to kill him 3 vs 1 in water when he was downed. It did take like over minute. Not balanced at all.

>

> Stun/interrupt the pet. Shouldn't be difficult with three of you.

>

> ~ Kovu

 

While dead pets can continue to revive,

Dead pets cannot be CCed.

 

~Experienced Player

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > > > > > > > I'm not "assuming" any more than you are -average player being bad is a fact. Downstate as a great safety net for bad players is a fact (which doesn't mean it's limited to strictly this reasoning for every player that wants to keep the downstate, in case you think I'm somehow trying to insult you here or w/e). Actually if we use *what you did* as a proof for anything (polls), then *most players/average player* wants the downstate to remain unchanged:

> > > > > > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/97040/new-balance-patch-time-to-change-downstate

> > > > > > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/75626/no-downstate-poll-please-read-post-first/p1

> > > > > > > > It's not an opt in. Skill is irrelevant, downstate is always there. I'd love to know how many times the absolute best players in WvW has been ressed. But maybe they are secretly bad.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Of course it's not. Of course anyone uses it *beacuse they have no choice* and if you get that soft cushon to fall on then why would you not use it while others do? But that still doesn't change anything about what I've said and what I said was never anything like "good players don't use it", which you seem to be answering to for some reason.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Also for those votes, want to bet that *almost all* of the unchanged voters would still agree to a compromise if you argued with them?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It doesn't matter what you "want to bet on". You were talking about polls as a proof for *whatever claim*, now that the poll shows against what you've said, you suddenly don't care about what they show, but instead *want to bet*. Cool. But you're also doing exactly what I said -these limited polls are only relevant when they show what I (in this case: *you*) want them to show. So it's clear what and why you're doing right now. Again, your "bets" don't change anything about what I've said in my previous posts, but they sure show that you'll try to use double standards when taking those ""undeniable proofs"" as actual proofs based pretty much solely on the fact whether or not they confirm *your opinion*.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >Leaving it unchanged is probably mostly a knee-jerk reaction to delete being in the poll.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Nope.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > No, these things are not equivalent -not even close.

> > > > > > > > Oh but they are eqvivalent and they are close. Just like when people say "well downstate is a little OP" and the knee-jerk reaction is "dElEtE DowNsTaTe!1!!", so has pretty much any argument with thief and its... lets just say liberal use of... stealth been. Delete the thief. Problem solved. If you consider deleting downstate a valid point then there are no ifs or buts. I can **easily** argue that combat stealth gameplay has no place in competitive PvP. So delete thief, it's a crutch for bad players that is a fact. Because *obviously*. Other classes have it too, true. Delete them too then. Its not possible to go *too* far, is it.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Of course that would be stupid. Because despite what "problems" it has, the thief is a part of the game and it offers a unique playstyle unlike any other class because, well its the thief. I'm sure many people love playing the thief.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Downed state is a core gameplay element of GW2 and offers a unique playstyle unlike most other games, it's one of the reasons many people like playing GW2. It adds another tactical element to combat - sometimes for good, sometimes for bad - and plays on the human emotions of wanting to help people in need and if you can help them, they may return the favor and help you when you need it. Just what a true MMO should do rather than just skill clicking muscle memory to kill the enemy dead with boomboom and pewpew.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Nope, not even close to being equivalent and I (as well as many other people) don't even "say *well downstate is a little OP*". Really, that it NOT what many people, including me said, so not sure why would I even read the rest when your initial claim about what I say is straight up false. And no, for me it's not a "knee jerk reaction", no matter how many times you'll try to claim it is just because it's an "easy out" for you. Just like before literally the only reason you try to claim it surely is a "kNeE jErK rEaCtIoN!1!!!" is because you want to claim that the average people have the same opinion like you, which is as baseless as it was above.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > tl;dr of your key points from 2 last responses to me:

> > > > > > > Someone has an opinion that's different than mine? WELL, THEY ARE *JUST MAKING UP OPPOSING ARGUMENT* AND *IT WAS A KNEE JERK REACTION*!

> > > > > > > [yup, actual quotes]

> > > > > > Something something people willing to compromise trying to argue with people that will never compromise.

> > > > >

> > > > > You're not *willing to compromise*, you're literally just repeating your opinion and sticking to it while picking and choosing when the same argument is relevant or not based solely on the fact whether or not it supports your opinion ("*according to polls/majority/average player I'm correct*" ..."*well, if the polls show I'm not correct, then it means that the voters didn't understand what they vote for and now my unchanged opinion is a compromise*"). This is not what a "compromise" is and nobody says there always needs to be one.

> > > > >

> > > > > Nice try at pretending you're taking into consideration anything that anyone else says though.

> > > > What does deleting downstate compromise with those that want to keep it?

> > >

> > > How is your long-held opinion suddenly a compromise with anything else? It's not, it's unchanged since the beginning.

> > >

> > > > But yeah I admit defeat. It's pointless unless you can answer that question.

> > >

> > > It's pointless when you're pretending you're going for a compromise, when you're clearly not, but it's an easy out for you to disregard anything that was written before, including the obvious double standards about accepting "proof" for anything based on whether or not it shows what you want it to show.

> > >

> > > And again: I'm not sure where that idea that everything needs/should end in a compromise came from, but it's not a general truth and not some kind of *the best solution for any case*.

> > The compromise is to nerf downstate, to the point I even suggest to fully delete a part of it (rally). Something I think most people will find acceptable because it doesnt change the core aspect of downstate, it has less impact on smallscale and more impact on large scale and it also remove a "toxic" aspect, ie just leaving the downed or complaining that they rally the enemy. We are talking about an existing part of the game that we have had for 8 years. Again:

> >

> > **What does deleting downstate compromise with those that want to keep it?**

>

> What exactly don't you understand about what I wrote in my previous posts?

> From what I know there are 3 prevaling "general" options in regards to downstate:

> a) leave it

> b) nerf it

> c) delete it.

>

> "nerf it" COULD be called a compromise between the option "a" and "c", but you've always held an opinion "b", at which point stop pretending you're "wishing to compromise", because you're not. Just because it seems that your opinion might be a compromise between the other options does nothing for you "being willingful to compromise with others", so stop pretending you are just because you got called out on your double standards.

> Not only that, but claiming that "compromise" is the best option, because it "kind of could make everyone happy" is false and by far isn't an overall rule. Many times those "compromises" aren't even close to actual good/optimal solutions, so stop pretending you're taking this stance for the overal wellbeing of the playerbase *or whatever*, because as I've already wrote multiple times above **-which btw you keep constantly dodging-** "most players" (something you were trying to use to speak against *one of the options you didn't like*) wanted the downstate to remain **unchanged**. To which the only thing you were able to say is a pretty hilarious response that claimed "*those players didn't know what they were voting for* aaaand *that must have been a knee-jerk reaction*".

>

> Don't come up with new questions when you're constantly dodging the facts about what you've done in this thread multiple times already, beacuse what you're writing here about "willingness to compromise" is pretty clearly dishonest.

>

>

> Semi-related: can someone remind me if downstate got nerfed after the february patch?

I wasnt really going to reply because I dont even understand what you are trying to say anymore, but what the heck.

 

Did you actually **read** the poll threads you posted instead of just looking at the percentages? Replies arent black and white and offer a far more nuanced take. And yes, it is my *opinion* that if Anet says they're nerfing downstate, I *believe* most of those that want to keep it - and many of those that want to delete it for that matter - will just say "ok sounds good Anet at least you're doing something".

 

The compromise isnt for me. I dont care if downstate remain as it is until the end of days. The compromise is for those that believe it should be removed. To make less people see downstate as a detriment at minimal cost to downstate itself. You accepted it as a compromise in the first post you made - which shows that maybe it was a decent compromise? - but then you seem to have forgotten about that.

[displayname.8315]

You guys go down a lot huh

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

tho, what happens then with all the downstate-targetting effects, be it of skills, runes, sigils?

 

i'd be fine with them just getting new effects for Wvw only, but do we really expect this to happen? me not. (despite that i could really live without them... imo having those skills just encourages slacking and it's sorta wasted easily)

[bigo.9037]

Nerf the HP of downed enemies by 25%, reduce armor by 25% so they can be cleaved faster. reduce ressing heals by 50% , cap it at 2 people ressing so that at MOST you can ress at the same speed you currently can with 1 person but with 2, but they have less armor and hp.

 

nerf ranger pet self res by 75%. i think that’s the only class that is over performing. it’s incredibly stupid that if you don’t cleave a ranger within 10s as 1 player, they WILL get back up about 5-8 seconds later.