Lan Deathrider.5910 Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 > @"ASP.8093" said: > The whole point point of skills like Shadowstep, Distortion, and Elixir S is that a quick down finish is your reward for saving a major resource for the finisher. > > That's all the downed skills are supposed to stress: does your enemy have cooldowns they can burn to finish you in a team fight? They do it in unequal ways but, honestly, which one's hardest to deal with is also kinda matchup-dependent. > > The actual comeback mechanic in the game is *other players* reviving you, interrupting stomps/cleaves to secure the revive, &c. If you're downed 1-on-1, you've already lost. An enemy can just back off and slow-bleed you from range if they really need to. I've downed others with my downed 1-1-1 spam tyvm. That and Vengeance when they dally about finishing me off. But seriously remove downstate from WvW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > As poll after poll after poll has showed, **the community want downstate to remain**. Yet again we land in the stupid scenario where people that can compromise have to argue with people that completely refuse to compromise. > > A forum poll is a small subset of overall playerbase and isn't "what the community wants" btw. > I mean obviously it is, when it shows what I want it to show and only then, but I'm pretty sure you know it works exactly the same for you :D > > Ah and lets not forget that *the average player* wants downstate to remain **unchanged**, because *the average player* is, well, bad and downstate is what saves their butts when they hug their groups and fail ^^ The *average player* describes a vast majority of the players. But you are assuming they see downed state as black and white as fervent deleters see it. They dont, I think most can agree on nerfs. Not everyone can agree on the *same* nerfs (as evidenced by these forums over the years) but still, I have seen few argue it should remain unchanged just for the sake of it. You're just making up an opposing argument. At the end of the day, deleting downstate is just as silly as deleting thief because people rant about stealth. It doesnt stop anyone from saying delete the thief. Its just that no one listens to it, as the suggestion rightly deserves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASP.8093 Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > **There should be 1:1 healing restriction** *<- delete power res* > **Rally should be removed** *<- delete rally botting, more teamwork to res* > **Downed penalty should be upped to 33% (ie 3 states with 66% HP start, instead of 4 with 75% HP start)** *<- harder penalties, more time to stomp* > **Downed penalty timer should be 3x longer per state** *<- harder penalties* This is by far the best proposal I've ever seen on the topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kylden Ar.3724 Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 > @"Gudradain.3892" said: > The solution is to give everyone the same downed skills. > > Skill #1: Necromancer channel attack that heal and damage. > Skill #2: Elementalist mist form > Skill #3: Ranger healing pet > Skill #4: Bandage I mean, you're not wrong, but yet you are. PvP/WvW should have the same skills for everyone, a generic set of downed skills. PvE can keep the flavorful ones they have. **Downed Skills for WvW/PvP:** 1. Generic throw rock. 2. Throw rock harder with stun/interrupt. 3. Crawl Away. (While channeling, you can move slowly to try and get out of AOE or behind friendly lines, and you bleed out slower) 4. Bandage. That one is already universal. Done. Still have the downed state the game was balanced around, but some don't have clear advantages. > @"ASP.8093" said: > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > **There should be 1:1 healing restriction** *<- delete power res* > > **Rally should be removed** *<- delete rally botting, more teamwork to res* > > **Downed penalty should be upped to 33% (ie 3 states with 66% HP start, instead of 4 with 75% HP start)** *<- harder penalties, more time to stomp* > > **Downed penalty timer should be 3x longer per state** *<- harder penalties* > > This is by far the best proposal I've ever seen on the topic. Not really. That just means that people downed will stay back in spawn until the penalty fades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > As poll after poll after poll has showed, **the community want downstate to remain**. Yet again we land in the stupid scenario where people that can compromise have to argue with people that completely refuse to compromise. > > > > A forum poll is a small subset of overall playerbase and isn't "what the community wants" btw. > > I mean obviously it is, when it shows what I want it to show and only then, but I'm pretty sure you know it works exactly the same for you :D > > > > Ah and lets not forget that *the average player* wants downstate to remain **unchanged**, because *the average player* is, well, bad and downstate is what saves their butts when they hug their groups and fail ^^ > The *average player* describes a vast majority of the players. I understand what *average player* means and how *averages* work, thanks :D >But you are assuming they see downed state as black and white as fervent deleters see it. They dont, I think most can agree on nerfs. I'm not "assuming" any more than you are -average player being bad is a fact. Downstate as a great safety net for bad players is a fact (which doesn't mean it's limited to strictly this reasoning for every player that wants to keep the downstate, in case you think I'm somehow trying to insult you here or w/e). Actually if we use *what you did* as a proof for anything (polls), then *most players/average player* wants the downstate to remain unchanged: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/97040/new-balance-patch-time-to-change-downstate https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/75626/no-downstate-poll-please-read-post-first/p1 >Not everyone can agree on the *same* nerfs (as evidenced by these forums over the years) but still, I have seen few argue it should remain unchanged just for the sake of it. You're just making up an opposing argument. No, I'm not. Just because you think your opinion is automatically the norm/average/majority doesn't make it such. Links included above btw (hey, like I said: *those random polls are only relevant when they show what I want them to show* ;) ). > At the end of the day, deleting downstate is just as silly as deleting thief because people rant about stealth. It doesnt stop anyone from saying delete the thief. Its just that no one listens to it, as the suggestion rightly deserves. No, these things are not equivalent -not even close. And the same can be said about you wanting to nerf the downstate and just about 95% threads about *nerfing anything in existance in gw2*, so I guess it also applies to your opinion as most of those threads are just ignored like they should be, eh? Remove the downstate, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yasai.3549 Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 I've already mentioned my suggestion in another thread : - Limit of 5 players rubbing per downed/defeated - Remove rally - Can now rub defeated players while in combat - While in combat, rubbing players or using any ressing skill will heal 50% lesser than out of combat - Defeated players will only receive 50% of normal rubbing/ressing heal. (stacks with in combat reduction, so it will be 50% of a 50% of a normal out of combat rub on a downed player.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 > @"Sobx.1758" said: > I'm not "assuming" any more than you are -average player being bad is a fact. Downstate as a great safety net for bad players is a fact (which doesn't mean it's limited to strictly this reasoning for every player that wants to keep the downstate, in case you think I'm somehow trying to insult you here or w/e). Actually if we use *what you did* as a proof for anything (polls), then *most players/average player* wants the downstate to remain unchanged: > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/97040/new-balance-patch-time-to-change-downstate > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/75626/no-downstate-poll-please-read-post-first/p1 It's not an opt in. Skill is irrelevant, downstate is always there. I'd love to know how many times the absolute best players in WvW has been ressed. But maybe they are secretly bad. Also for those votes, want to bet that *almost all* of the unchanged voters would still agree to a compromise if you argued with them? Leaving it unchanged is probably mostly a knee-jerk reaction to delete being in the poll. > No, these things are not equivalent -not even close. Oh but they are eqvivalent and they are close. Just like when people say "well downstate is a little OP" and the knee-jerk reaction is "dElEtE DowNsTaTe!1!!", so has pretty much any argument with thief and its... lets just say liberal use of... stealth been. Delete the thief. Problem solved. If you consider deleting downstate a valid point then there are no ifs or buts. I can **easily** argue that combat stealth gameplay has no place in competitive PvP. So delete thief, it's a crutch for bad players that is a fact. Because *obviously*. Other classes have it too, true. Delete them too then. Its not possible to go *too* far, is it. Of course that would be stupid. Because despite what "problems" it has, the thief is a part of the game and it offers a unique playstyle unlike any other class because, well its the thief. I'm sure many people love playing the thief. Downed state is a core gameplay element of GW2 and offers a unique playstyle unlike most other games, it's one of the reasons many people like playing GW2. It adds another tactical element to combat - sometimes for good, sometimes for bad - and plays on the human emotions of wanting to help people in need and if you can help them, they may return the favor and help you when you need it. Just what a true MMO should do rather than just skill clicking muscle memory to kill the enemy dead with boomboom and pewpew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 If downed state is kept, regardless of the other changes: - health upon reviving (no matter how) should be 20-25% of your max health. - No more ‘50% of your health’ It almost makes more sense in some small groups to go down than it does to try to heal through damage while up. Once you drop below 25%, if you have a small group that is comped, and works together, it makes more sense to focus on continuing damage output, and saving the heals for someone else, letting yourself be downed and get brought back up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sansar.1302 Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 When i started playing many years ago down state where the only thing i did not like in this game, now i HATE it. In WvW it is a mecanic that only benefits those with number advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gudradain.3892 Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 > @"Kylden Ar.3724" said: > > @"Gudradain.3892" said: > > The solution is to give everyone the same downed skills. > > > > Skill #1: Necromancer channel attack that heal and damage. > > Skill #2: Elementalist mist form > > Skill #3: Ranger healing pet > > Skill #4: Bandage > > I mean, you're not wrong, but yet you are. > > PvP/WvW should have the same skills for everyone, a generic set of downed skills. PvE can keep the flavorful ones they have. > > **Downed Skills for WvW/PvP:** > 1. Generic throw rock. > 2. Throw rock harder with stun/interrupt. > 3. Crawl Away. (While channeling, you can move slowly to try and get out of AOE or behind friendly lines, and you bleed out slower) > 4. Bandage. That one is already universal. Why not give the most interesting/powerful skills instead of the most boring/ineffective skills? Everyone would love to have the same mistform as the elementalist when they are downed but your suggestions don't seem very exciting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > I'm not "assuming" any more than you are -average player being bad is a fact. Downstate as a great safety net for bad players is a fact (which doesn't mean it's limited to strictly this reasoning for every player that wants to keep the downstate, in case you think I'm somehow trying to insult you here or w/e). Actually if we use *what you did* as a proof for anything (polls), then *most players/average player* wants the downstate to remain unchanged: > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/97040/new-balance-patch-time-to-change-downstate > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/75626/no-downstate-poll-please-read-post-first/p1 > It's not an opt in. Skill is irrelevant, downstate is always there. I'd love to know how many times the absolute best players in WvW has been ressed. But maybe they are secretly bad. Of course it's not. Of course anyone uses it *beacuse they have no choice* and if you get that soft cushon to fall on then why would you not use it while others do? But that still doesn't change anything about what I've said and what I said was never anything like "good players don't use it", which you seem to be answering to for some reason. > Also for those votes, want to bet that *almost all* of the unchanged voters would still agree to a compromise if you argued with them? It doesn't matter what you "want to bet on". You were talking about polls as a proof for *whatever claim*, now that the poll shows against what you've said, you suddenly don't care about what they show, but instead *want to bet*. Cool. But you're also doing exactly what I said -these limited polls are only relevant when they show what I (in this case: *you*) want them to show. So it's clear what and why you're doing right now. Again, your "bets" don't change anything about what I've said in my previous posts, but they sure show that you'll try to use double standards when taking those ""undeniable proofs"" as actual proofs based pretty much solely on the fact whether or not they confirm *your opinion*. >Leaving it unchanged is probably mostly a knee-jerk reaction to delete being in the poll. Nope. > > No, these things are not equivalent -not even close. > Oh but they are eqvivalent and they are close. Just like when people say "well downstate is a little OP" and the knee-jerk reaction is "dElEtE DowNsTaTe!1!!", so has pretty much any argument with thief and its... lets just say liberal use of... stealth been. Delete the thief. Problem solved. If you consider deleting downstate a valid point then there are no ifs or buts. I can **easily** argue that combat stealth gameplay has no place in competitive PvP. So delete thief, it's a crutch for bad players that is a fact. Because *obviously*. Other classes have it too, true. Delete them too then. Its not possible to go *too* far, is it. > > Of course that would be stupid. Because despite what "problems" it has, the thief is a part of the game and it offers a unique playstyle unlike any other class because, well its the thief. I'm sure many people love playing the thief. > > Downed state is a core gameplay element of GW2 and offers a unique playstyle unlike most other games, it's one of the reasons many people like playing GW2. It adds another tactical element to combat - sometimes for good, sometimes for bad - and plays on the human emotions of wanting to help people in need and if you can help them, they may return the favor and help you when you need it. Just what a true MMO should do rather than just skill clicking muscle memory to kill the enemy dead with boomboom and pewpew. Nope, not even close to being equivalent and I (as well as many other people) don't even "say *well downstate is a little OP*". Really, that it NOT what many people, including me said, so not sure why would I even read the rest when your initial claim about what I say is straight up false. And no, for me it's not a "knee jerk reaction", no matter how many times you'll try to claim it is just because it's an "easy out" for you. Just like before literally the only reason you try to claim it surely is a "kNeE jErK rEaCtIoN!1!!!" is because you want to claim that the average people have the same opinion like you, which is as baseless as it was above. tl;dr of your key points from 2 last responses to me: Someone has an opinion that's different than mine? WELL, THEY ARE *JUST MAKING UP OPPOSING ARGUMENT* AND *IT WAS A KNEE JERK REACTION*! [yup, actual quotes] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > I'm not "assuming" any more than you are -average player being bad is a fact. Downstate as a great safety net for bad players is a fact (which doesn't mean it's limited to strictly this reasoning for every player that wants to keep the downstate, in case you think I'm somehow trying to insult you here or w/e). Actually if we use *what you did* as a proof for anything (polls), then *most players/average player* wants the downstate to remain unchanged: > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/97040/new-balance-patch-time-to-change-downstate > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/75626/no-downstate-poll-please-read-post-first/p1 > > It's not an opt in. Skill is irrelevant, downstate is always there. I'd love to know how many times the absolute best players in WvW has been ressed. But maybe they are secretly bad. > > Of course it's not. Of course anyone uses it *beacuse they have no choice* and if you get that soft cushon to fall on then why would you not use it while others do? But that still doesn't change anything about what I've said and what I said was never anything like "good players don't use it", which you seem to be answering to for some reason. > > > Also for those votes, want to bet that *almost all* of the unchanged voters would still agree to a compromise if you argued with them? > > It doesn't matter what you "want to bet on". You were talking about polls as a proof for *whatever claim*, now that the poll shows against what you've said, you suddenly don't care about what they show, but instead *want to bet*. Cool. But you're also doing exactly what I said -these limited polls are only relevant when they show what I (in this case: *you*) want them to show. So it's clear what and why you're doing right now. Again, your "bets" don't change anything about what I've said in my previous posts, but they sure show that you'll try to use double standards when taking those ""undeniable proofs"" as actual proofs based pretty much solely on the fact whether or not they confirm *your opinion*. > > >Leaving it unchanged is probably mostly a knee-jerk reaction to delete being in the poll. > > Nope. > > > > No, these things are not equivalent -not even close. > > Oh but they are eqvivalent and they are close. Just like when people say "well downstate is a little OP" and the knee-jerk reaction is "dElEtE DowNsTaTe!1!!", so has pretty much any argument with thief and its... lets just say liberal use of... stealth been. Delete the thief. Problem solved. If you consider deleting downstate a valid point then there are no ifs or buts. I can **easily** argue that combat stealth gameplay has no place in competitive PvP. So delete thief, it's a crutch for bad players that is a fact. Because *obviously*. Other classes have it too, true. Delete them too then. Its not possible to go *too* far, is it. > > > > Of course that would be stupid. Because despite what "problems" it has, the thief is a part of the game and it offers a unique playstyle unlike any other class because, well its the thief. I'm sure many people love playing the thief. > > > > Downed state is a core gameplay element of GW2 and offers a unique playstyle unlike most other games, it's one of the reasons many people like playing GW2. It adds another tactical element to combat - sometimes for good, sometimes for bad - and plays on the human emotions of wanting to help people in need and if you can help them, they may return the favor and help you when you need it. Just what a true MMO should do rather than just skill clicking muscle memory to kill the enemy dead with boomboom and pewpew. > > Nope, not even close to being equivalent and I (as well as many other people) don't even "say *well downstate is a little OP*". Really, that it NOT what many people, including me said, so not sure why would I even read the rest when your initial claim about what I say is straight up false. And no, for me it's not a "knee jerk reaction", no matter how many times you'll try to claim it is just because it's an "easy out" for you. Just like before literally the only reason you try to claim it surely is a "kNeE jErK rEaCtIoN!1!!!" is because you want to claim that the average people have the same opinion like you, which is as baseless as it was above. > > tl;dr of your key points from 2 last responses to me: > Someone has an opinion that's different than mine? WELL, THEY ARE *JUST MAKING UP OPPOSING ARGUMENT* AND *IT WAS A KNEE JERK REACTION*! > [yup, actual quotes] Something something people willing to compromise trying to argue with people that will never compromise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > I'm not "assuming" any more than you are -average player being bad is a fact. Downstate as a great safety net for bad players is a fact (which doesn't mean it's limited to strictly this reasoning for every player that wants to keep the downstate, in case you think I'm somehow trying to insult you here or w/e). Actually if we use *what you did* as a proof for anything (polls), then *most players/average player* wants the downstate to remain unchanged: > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/97040/new-balance-patch-time-to-change-downstate > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/75626/no-downstate-poll-please-read-post-first/p1 > > > It's not an opt in. Skill is irrelevant, downstate is always there. I'd love to know how many times the absolute best players in WvW has been ressed. But maybe they are secretly bad. > > > > Of course it's not. Of course anyone uses it *beacuse they have no choice* and if you get that soft cushon to fall on then why would you not use it while others do? But that still doesn't change anything about what I've said and what I said was never anything like "good players don't use it", which you seem to be answering to for some reason. > > > > > Also for those votes, want to bet that *almost all* of the unchanged voters would still agree to a compromise if you argued with them? > > > > It doesn't matter what you "want to bet on". You were talking about polls as a proof for *whatever claim*, now that the poll shows against what you've said, you suddenly don't care about what they show, but instead *want to bet*. Cool. But you're also doing exactly what I said -these limited polls are only relevant when they show what I (in this case: *you*) want them to show. So it's clear what and why you're doing right now. Again, your "bets" don't change anything about what I've said in my previous posts, but they sure show that you'll try to use double standards when taking those ""undeniable proofs"" as actual proofs based pretty much solely on the fact whether or not they confirm *your opinion*. > > > > >Leaving it unchanged is probably mostly a knee-jerk reaction to delete being in the poll. > > > > Nope. > > > > > > No, these things are not equivalent -not even close. > > > Oh but they are eqvivalent and they are close. Just like when people say "well downstate is a little OP" and the knee-jerk reaction is "dElEtE DowNsTaTe!1!!", so has pretty much any argument with thief and its... lets just say liberal use of... stealth been. Delete the thief. Problem solved. If you consider deleting downstate a valid point then there are no ifs or buts. I can **easily** argue that combat stealth gameplay has no place in competitive PvP. So delete thief, it's a crutch for bad players that is a fact. Because *obviously*. Other classes have it too, true. Delete them too then. Its not possible to go *too* far, is it. > > > > > > Of course that would be stupid. Because despite what "problems" it has, the thief is a part of the game and it offers a unique playstyle unlike any other class because, well its the thief. I'm sure many people love playing the thief. > > > > > > Downed state is a core gameplay element of GW2 and offers a unique playstyle unlike most other games, it's one of the reasons many people like playing GW2. It adds another tactical element to combat - sometimes for good, sometimes for bad - and plays on the human emotions of wanting to help people in need and if you can help them, they may return the favor and help you when you need it. Just what a true MMO should do rather than just skill clicking muscle memory to kill the enemy dead with boomboom and pewpew. > > > > Nope, not even close to being equivalent and I (as well as many other people) don't even "say *well downstate is a little OP*". Really, that it NOT what many people, including me said, so not sure why would I even read the rest when your initial claim about what I say is straight up false. And no, for me it's not a "knee jerk reaction", no matter how many times you'll try to claim it is just because it's an "easy out" for you. Just like before literally the only reason you try to claim it surely is a "kNeE jErK rEaCtIoN!1!!!" is because you want to claim that the average people have the same opinion like you, which is as baseless as it was above. > > > > tl;dr of your key points from 2 last responses to me: > > Someone has an opinion that's different than mine? WELL, THEY ARE *JUST MAKING UP OPPOSING ARGUMENT* AND *IT WAS A KNEE JERK REACTION*! > > [yup, actual quotes] > Something something people willing to compromise trying to argue with people that will never compromise. You're not *willing to compromise*, you're literally just repeating your opinion and sticking to it while picking and choosing when the same argument is relevant or not based solely on the fact whether or not it supports your opinion ("*according to polls/majority/average player I'm correct*" ..."*well, if the polls show I'm not correct, then it means that the voters didn't understand what they vote for and now my unchanged opinion is a compromise*"). This is not what a "compromise" is and nobody says there always needs to be one. Nice try at pretending you're taking into consideration anything that anyone else says though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > I'm not "assuming" any more than you are -average player being bad is a fact. Downstate as a great safety net for bad players is a fact (which doesn't mean it's limited to strictly this reasoning for every player that wants to keep the downstate, in case you think I'm somehow trying to insult you here or w/e). Actually if we use *what you did* as a proof for anything (polls), then *most players/average player* wants the downstate to remain unchanged: > > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/97040/new-balance-patch-time-to-change-downstate > > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/75626/no-downstate-poll-please-read-post-first/p1 > > > > It's not an opt in. Skill is irrelevant, downstate is always there. I'd love to know how many times the absolute best players in WvW has been ressed. But maybe they are secretly bad. > > > > > > Of course it's not. Of course anyone uses it *beacuse they have no choice* and if you get that soft cushon to fall on then why would you not use it while others do? But that still doesn't change anything about what I've said and what I said was never anything like "good players don't use it", which you seem to be answering to for some reason. > > > > > > > Also for those votes, want to bet that *almost all* of the unchanged voters would still agree to a compromise if you argued with them? > > > > > > It doesn't matter what you "want to bet on". You were talking about polls as a proof for *whatever claim*, now that the poll shows against what you've said, you suddenly don't care about what they show, but instead *want to bet*. Cool. But you're also doing exactly what I said -these limited polls are only relevant when they show what I (in this case: *you*) want them to show. So it's clear what and why you're doing right now. Again, your "bets" don't change anything about what I've said in my previous posts, but they sure show that you'll try to use double standards when taking those ""undeniable proofs"" as actual proofs based pretty much solely on the fact whether or not they confirm *your opinion*. > > > > > > >Leaving it unchanged is probably mostly a knee-jerk reaction to delete being in the poll. > > > > > > Nope. > > > > > > > > No, these things are not equivalent -not even close. > > > > Oh but they are eqvivalent and they are close. Just like when people say "well downstate is a little OP" and the knee-jerk reaction is "dElEtE DowNsTaTe!1!!", so has pretty much any argument with thief and its... lets just say liberal use of... stealth been. Delete the thief. Problem solved. If you consider deleting downstate a valid point then there are no ifs or buts. I can **easily** argue that combat stealth gameplay has no place in competitive PvP. So delete thief, it's a crutch for bad players that is a fact. Because *obviously*. Other classes have it too, true. Delete them too then. Its not possible to go *too* far, is it. > > > > > > > > Of course that would be stupid. Because despite what "problems" it has, the thief is a part of the game and it offers a unique playstyle unlike any other class because, well its the thief. I'm sure many people love playing the thief. > > > > > > > > Downed state is a core gameplay element of GW2 and offers a unique playstyle unlike most other games, it's one of the reasons many people like playing GW2. It adds another tactical element to combat - sometimes for good, sometimes for bad - and plays on the human emotions of wanting to help people in need and if you can help them, they may return the favor and help you when you need it. Just what a true MMO should do rather than just skill clicking muscle memory to kill the enemy dead with boomboom and pewpew. > > > > > > Nope, not even close to being equivalent and I (as well as many other people) don't even "say *well downstate is a little OP*". Really, that it NOT what many people, including me said, so not sure why would I even read the rest when your initial claim about what I say is straight up false. And no, for me it's not a "knee jerk reaction", no matter how many times you'll try to claim it is just because it's an "easy out" for you. Just like before literally the only reason you try to claim it surely is a "kNeE jErK rEaCtIoN!1!!!" is because you want to claim that the average people have the same opinion like you, which is as baseless as it was above. > > > > > > tl;dr of your key points from 2 last responses to me: > > > Someone has an opinion that's different than mine? WELL, THEY ARE *JUST MAKING UP OPPOSING ARGUMENT* AND *IT WAS A KNEE JERK REACTION*! > > > [yup, actual quotes] > > Something something people willing to compromise trying to argue with people that will never compromise. > > You're not *willing to compromise*, you're literally just repeating your opinion and sticking to it while picking and choosing when the same argument is relevant or not based solely on the fact whether or not it supports your opinion ("*according to polls/majority/average player I'm correct*" ..."*well, if the polls show I'm not correct, then it means that the voters didn't understand what they vote for and now my unchanged opinion is a compromise*"). This is not what a "compromise" is and nobody says there always needs to be one. > > Nice try at pretending you're taking into consideration anything that anyone else says though. What does deleting downstate compromise with those that want to keep it? But yeah I admit defeat. It's pointless unless you can answer that question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > > I'm not "assuming" any more than you are -average player being bad is a fact. Downstate as a great safety net for bad players is a fact (which doesn't mean it's limited to strictly this reasoning for every player that wants to keep the downstate, in case you think I'm somehow trying to insult you here or w/e). Actually if we use *what you did* as a proof for anything (polls), then *most players/average player* wants the downstate to remain unchanged: > > > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/97040/new-balance-patch-time-to-change-downstate > > > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/75626/no-downstate-poll-please-read-post-first/p1 > > > > > It's not an opt in. Skill is irrelevant, downstate is always there. I'd love to know how many times the absolute best players in WvW has been ressed. But maybe they are secretly bad. > > > > > > > > Of course it's not. Of course anyone uses it *beacuse they have no choice* and if you get that soft cushon to fall on then why would you not use it while others do? But that still doesn't change anything about what I've said and what I said was never anything like "good players don't use it", which you seem to be answering to for some reason. > > > > > > > > > Also for those votes, want to bet that *almost all* of the unchanged voters would still agree to a compromise if you argued with them? > > > > > > > > It doesn't matter what you "want to bet on". You were talking about polls as a proof for *whatever claim*, now that the poll shows against what you've said, you suddenly don't care about what they show, but instead *want to bet*. Cool. But you're also doing exactly what I said -these limited polls are only relevant when they show what I (in this case: *you*) want them to show. So it's clear what and why you're doing right now. Again, your "bets" don't change anything about what I've said in my previous posts, but they sure show that you'll try to use double standards when taking those ""undeniable proofs"" as actual proofs based pretty much solely on the fact whether or not they confirm *your opinion*. > > > > > > > > >Leaving it unchanged is probably mostly a knee-jerk reaction to delete being in the poll. > > > > > > > > Nope. > > > > > > > > > > No, these things are not equivalent -not even close. > > > > > Oh but they are eqvivalent and they are close. Just like when people say "well downstate is a little OP" and the knee-jerk reaction is "dElEtE DowNsTaTe!1!!", so has pretty much any argument with thief and its... lets just say liberal use of... stealth been. Delete the thief. Problem solved. If you consider deleting downstate a valid point then there are no ifs or buts. I can **easily** argue that combat stealth gameplay has no place in competitive PvP. So delete thief, it's a crutch for bad players that is a fact. Because *obviously*. Other classes have it too, true. Delete them too then. Its not possible to go *too* far, is it. > > > > > > > > > > Of course that would be stupid. Because despite what "problems" it has, the thief is a part of the game and it offers a unique playstyle unlike any other class because, well its the thief. I'm sure many people love playing the thief. > > > > > > > > > > Downed state is a core gameplay element of GW2 and offers a unique playstyle unlike most other games, it's one of the reasons many people like playing GW2. It adds another tactical element to combat - sometimes for good, sometimes for bad - and plays on the human emotions of wanting to help people in need and if you can help them, they may return the favor and help you when you need it. Just what a true MMO should do rather than just skill clicking muscle memory to kill the enemy dead with boomboom and pewpew. > > > > > > > > Nope, not even close to being equivalent and I (as well as many other people) don't even "say *well downstate is a little OP*". Really, that it NOT what many people, including me said, so not sure why would I even read the rest when your initial claim about what I say is straight up false. And no, for me it's not a "knee jerk reaction", no matter how many times you'll try to claim it is just because it's an "easy out" for you. Just like before literally the only reason you try to claim it surely is a "kNeE jErK rEaCtIoN!1!!!" is because you want to claim that the average people have the same opinion like you, which is as baseless as it was above. > > > > > > > > tl;dr of your key points from 2 last responses to me: > > > > Someone has an opinion that's different than mine? WELL, THEY ARE *JUST MAKING UP OPPOSING ARGUMENT* AND *IT WAS A KNEE JERK REACTION*! > > > > [yup, actual quotes] > > > Something something people willing to compromise trying to argue with people that will never compromise. > > > > You're not *willing to compromise*, you're literally just repeating your opinion and sticking to it while picking and choosing when the same argument is relevant or not based solely on the fact whether or not it supports your opinion ("*according to polls/majority/average player I'm correct*" ..."*well, if the polls show I'm not correct, then it means that the voters didn't understand what they vote for and now my unchanged opinion is a compromise*"). This is not what a "compromise" is and nobody says there always needs to be one. > > > > Nice try at pretending you're taking into consideration anything that anyone else says though. > What does deleting downstate compromise with those that want to keep it? How is your long-held opinion suddenly a compromise with anything else? It's not, it's unchanged since the beginning. > But yeah I admit defeat. It's pointless unless you can answer that question. It's pointless when you're pretending you're going for a compromise, when you're clearly not, but it's an easy out for you to disregard anything that was written before, including the obvious double standards about accepting "proof" for anything based on whether or not it shows what you want it to show. And again: I'm not sure where that idea that everything needs/should end in a compromise came from, but it's not a general truth and not some kind of *the best solution for any case*. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > > > I'm not "assuming" any more than you are -average player being bad is a fact. Downstate as a great safety net for bad players is a fact (which doesn't mean it's limited to strictly this reasoning for every player that wants to keep the downstate, in case you think I'm somehow trying to insult you here or w/e). Actually if we use *what you did* as a proof for anything (polls), then *most players/average player* wants the downstate to remain unchanged: > > > > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/97040/new-balance-patch-time-to-change-downstate > > > > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/75626/no-downstate-poll-please-read-post-first/p1 > > > > > > It's not an opt in. Skill is irrelevant, downstate is always there. I'd love to know how many times the absolute best players in WvW has been ressed. But maybe they are secretly bad. > > > > > > > > > > Of course it's not. Of course anyone uses it *beacuse they have no choice* and if you get that soft cushon to fall on then why would you not use it while others do? But that still doesn't change anything about what I've said and what I said was never anything like "good players don't use it", which you seem to be answering to for some reason. > > > > > > > > > > > Also for those votes, want to bet that *almost all* of the unchanged voters would still agree to a compromise if you argued with them? > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't matter what you "want to bet on". You were talking about polls as a proof for *whatever claim*, now that the poll shows against what you've said, you suddenly don't care about what they show, but instead *want to bet*. Cool. But you're also doing exactly what I said -these limited polls are only relevant when they show what I (in this case: *you*) want them to show. So it's clear what and why you're doing right now. Again, your "bets" don't change anything about what I've said in my previous posts, but they sure show that you'll try to use double standards when taking those ""undeniable proofs"" as actual proofs based pretty much solely on the fact whether or not they confirm *your opinion*. > > > > > > > > > > >Leaving it unchanged is probably mostly a knee-jerk reaction to delete being in the poll. > > > > > > > > > > Nope. > > > > > > > > > > > > No, these things are not equivalent -not even close. > > > > > > Oh but they are eqvivalent and they are close. Just like when people say "well downstate is a little OP" and the knee-jerk reaction is "dElEtE DowNsTaTe!1!!", so has pretty much any argument with thief and its... lets just say liberal use of... stealth been. Delete the thief. Problem solved. If you consider deleting downstate a valid point then there are no ifs or buts. I can **easily** argue that combat stealth gameplay has no place in competitive PvP. So delete thief, it's a crutch for bad players that is a fact. Because *obviously*. Other classes have it too, true. Delete them too then. Its not possible to go *too* far, is it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course that would be stupid. Because despite what "problems" it has, the thief is a part of the game and it offers a unique playstyle unlike any other class because, well its the thief. I'm sure many people love playing the thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > Downed state is a core gameplay element of GW2 and offers a unique playstyle unlike most other games, it's one of the reasons many people like playing GW2. It adds another tactical element to combat - sometimes for good, sometimes for bad - and plays on the human emotions of wanting to help people in need and if you can help them, they may return the favor and help you when you need it. Just what a true MMO should do rather than just skill clicking muscle memory to kill the enemy dead with boomboom and pewpew. > > > > > > > > > > Nope, not even close to being equivalent and I (as well as many other people) don't even "say *well downstate is a little OP*". Really, that it NOT what many people, including me said, so not sure why would I even read the rest when your initial claim about what I say is straight up false. And no, for me it's not a "knee jerk reaction", no matter how many times you'll try to claim it is just because it's an "easy out" for you. Just like before literally the only reason you try to claim it surely is a "kNeE jErK rEaCtIoN!1!!!" is because you want to claim that the average people have the same opinion like you, which is as baseless as it was above. > > > > > > > > > > tl;dr of your key points from 2 last responses to me: > > > > > Someone has an opinion that's different than mine? WELL, THEY ARE *JUST MAKING UP OPPOSING ARGUMENT* AND *IT WAS A KNEE JERK REACTION*! > > > > > [yup, actual quotes] > > > > Something something people willing to compromise trying to argue with people that will never compromise. > > > > > > You're not *willing to compromise*, you're literally just repeating your opinion and sticking to it while picking and choosing when the same argument is relevant or not based solely on the fact whether or not it supports your opinion ("*according to polls/majority/average player I'm correct*" ..."*well, if the polls show I'm not correct, then it means that the voters didn't understand what they vote for and now my unchanged opinion is a compromise*"). This is not what a "compromise" is and nobody says there always needs to be one. > > > > > > Nice try at pretending you're taking into consideration anything that anyone else says though. > > What does deleting downstate compromise with those that want to keep it? > > How is your long-held opinion suddenly a compromise with anything else? It's not, it's unchanged since the beginning. > > > But yeah I admit defeat. It's pointless unless you can answer that question. > > It's pointless when you're pretending you're going for a compromise, when you're clearly not, but it's an easy out for you to disregard anything that was written before, including the obvious double standards about accepting "proof" for anything based on whether or not it shows what you want it to show. > > And again: I'm not sure where that idea that everything needs/should end in a compromise came from, but it's not a general truth and not some kind of *the best solution for any case*. The compromise is to nerf downstate, to the point I even suggest to fully delete a part of it (rally). Something I think most people will find acceptable because it doesnt change the core aspect of downstate, it has less impact on smallscale and more impact on large scale and it also remove a "toxic" aspect, ie just leaving the downed or complaining that they rally the enemy. We are talking about an existing part of the game that we have had for 8 years. Again: **What does deleting downstate compromise with those that want to keep it?** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sansar.1302 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > > > > I'm not "assuming" any more than you are -average player being bad is a fact. Downstate as a great safety net for bad players is a fact (which doesn't mean it's limited to strictly this reasoning for every player that wants to keep the downstate, in case you think I'm somehow trying to insult you here or w/e). Actually if we use *what you did* as a proof for anything (polls), then *most players/average player* wants the downstate to remain unchanged: > > > > > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/97040/new-balance-patch-time-to-change-downstate > > > > > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/75626/no-downstate-poll-please-read-post-first/p1 > > > > > > > It's not an opt in. Skill is irrelevant, downstate is always there. I'd love to know how many times the absolute best players in WvW has been ressed. But maybe they are secretly bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course it's not. Of course anyone uses it *beacuse they have no choice* and if you get that soft cushon to fall on then why would you not use it while others do? But that still doesn't change anything about what I've said and what I said was never anything like "good players don't use it", which you seem to be answering to for some reason. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also for those votes, want to bet that *almost all* of the unchanged voters would still agree to a compromise if you argued with them? > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't matter what you "want to bet on". You were talking about polls as a proof for *whatever claim*, now that the poll shows against what you've said, you suddenly don't care about what they show, but instead *want to bet*. Cool. But you're also doing exactly what I said -these limited polls are only relevant when they show what I (in this case: *you*) want them to show. So it's clear what and why you're doing right now. Again, your "bets" don't change anything about what I've said in my previous posts, but they sure show that you'll try to use double standards when taking those ""undeniable proofs"" as actual proofs based pretty much solely on the fact whether or not they confirm *your opinion*. > > > > > > > > > > > > >Leaving it unchanged is probably mostly a knee-jerk reaction to delete being in the poll. > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, these things are not equivalent -not even close. > > > > > > > Oh but they are eqvivalent and they are close. Just like when people say "well downstate is a little OP" and the knee-jerk reaction is "dElEtE DowNsTaTe!1!!", so has pretty much any argument with thief and its... lets just say liberal use of... stealth been. Delete the thief. Problem solved. If you consider deleting downstate a valid point then there are no ifs or buts. I can **easily** argue that combat stealth gameplay has no place in competitive PvP. So delete thief, it's a crutch for bad players that is a fact. Because *obviously*. Other classes have it too, true. Delete them too then. Its not possible to go *too* far, is it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course that would be stupid. Because despite what "problems" it has, the thief is a part of the game and it offers a unique playstyle unlike any other class because, well its the thief. I'm sure many people love playing the thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Downed state is a core gameplay element of GW2 and offers a unique playstyle unlike most other games, it's one of the reasons many people like playing GW2. It adds another tactical element to combat - sometimes for good, sometimes for bad - and plays on the human emotions of wanting to help people in need and if you can help them, they may return the favor and help you when you need it. Just what a true MMO should do rather than just skill clicking muscle memory to kill the enemy dead with boomboom and pewpew. > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope, not even close to being equivalent and I (as well as many other people) don't even "say *well downstate is a little OP*". Really, that it NOT what many people, including me said, so not sure why would I even read the rest when your initial claim about what I say is straight up false. And no, for me it's not a "knee jerk reaction", no matter how many times you'll try to claim it is just because it's an "easy out" for you. Just like before literally the only reason you try to claim it surely is a "kNeE jErK rEaCtIoN!1!!!" is because you want to claim that the average people have the same opinion like you, which is as baseless as it was above. > > > > > > > > > > > > tl;dr of your key points from 2 last responses to me: > > > > > > Someone has an opinion that's different than mine? WELL, THEY ARE *JUST MAKING UP OPPOSING ARGUMENT* AND *IT WAS A KNEE JERK REACTION*! > > > > > > [yup, actual quotes] > > > > > Something something people willing to compromise trying to argue with people that will never compromise. > > > > > > > > You're not *willing to compromise*, you're literally just repeating your opinion and sticking to it while picking and choosing when the same argument is relevant or not based solely on the fact whether or not it supports your opinion ("*according to polls/majority/average player I'm correct*" ..."*well, if the polls show I'm not correct, then it means that the voters didn't understand what they vote for and now my unchanged opinion is a compromise*"). This is not what a "compromise" is and nobody says there always needs to be one. > > > > > > > > Nice try at pretending you're taking into consideration anything that anyone else says though. > > > What does deleting downstate compromise with those that want to keep it? > > > > How is your long-held opinion suddenly a compromise with anything else? It's not, it's unchanged since the beginning. > > > > > But yeah I admit defeat. It's pointless unless you can answer that question. > > > > It's pointless when you're pretending you're going for a compromise, when you're clearly not, but it's an easy out for you to disregard anything that was written before, including the obvious double standards about accepting "proof" for anything based on whether or not it shows what you want it to show. > > > > And again: I'm not sure where that idea that everything needs/should end in a compromise came from, but it's not a general truth and not some kind of *the best solution for any case*. > The compromise is to nerf downstate, to the point I even suggest to fully delete a part of it (rally). Something I think most people will find acceptable because it doesnt change the core aspect of downstate, it has less impact on smallscale and more impact on large scale and it also remove a "toxic" aspect, ie just leaving the downed or complaining that they rally the enemy. We are talking about an existing part of the game that we have had for 8 years. Again: > > **What does deleting downstate compromise with those that want to keep it?** > > I realy hate down state but, no rally might be ok as that removes alot of instant rez potential. In both pve and spvp i think it is a good mecanic, in wvw i think it is the most toxic thing in the game mode. ( And in my opinion the reason wvw never became super popular ) on a note IF downstate where to be removed in wvw i think out off combat rez needs a speed boost ( and maby alows skills to rez outside combat as well ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > > > I'm not "assuming" any more than you are -average player being bad is a fact. Downstate as a great safety net for bad players is a fact (which doesn't mean it's limited to strictly this reasoning for every player that wants to keep the downstate, in case you think I'm somehow trying to insult you here or w/e). Actually if we use *what you did* as a proof for anything (polls), then *most players/average player* wants the downstate to remain unchanged: > > > > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/97040/new-balance-patch-time-to-change-downstate > > > > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/75626/no-downstate-poll-please-read-post-first/p1 > > > > > > It's not an opt in. Skill is irrelevant, downstate is always there. I'd love to know how many times the absolute best players in WvW has been ressed. But maybe they are secretly bad. > > > > > > > > > > Of course it's not. Of course anyone uses it *beacuse they have no choice* and if you get that soft cushon to fall on then why would you not use it while others do? But that still doesn't change anything about what I've said and what I said was never anything like "good players don't use it", which you seem to be answering to for some reason. > > > > > > > > > > > Also for those votes, want to bet that *almost all* of the unchanged voters would still agree to a compromise if you argued with them? > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't matter what you "want to bet on". You were talking about polls as a proof for *whatever claim*, now that the poll shows against what you've said, you suddenly don't care about what they show, but instead *want to bet*. Cool. But you're also doing exactly what I said -these limited polls are only relevant when they show what I (in this case: *you*) want them to show. So it's clear what and why you're doing right now. Again, your "bets" don't change anything about what I've said in my previous posts, but they sure show that you'll try to use double standards when taking those ""undeniable proofs"" as actual proofs based pretty much solely on the fact whether or not they confirm *your opinion*. > > > > > > > > > > >Leaving it unchanged is probably mostly a knee-jerk reaction to delete being in the poll. > > > > > > > > > > Nope. > > > > > > > > > > > > No, these things are not equivalent -not even close. > > > > > > Oh but they are eqvivalent and they are close. Just like when people say "well downstate is a little OP" and the knee-jerk reaction is "dElEtE DowNsTaTe!1!!", so has pretty much any argument with thief and its... lets just say liberal use of... stealth been. Delete the thief. Problem solved. If you consider deleting downstate a valid point then there are no ifs or buts. I can **easily** argue that combat stealth gameplay has no place in competitive PvP. So delete thief, it's a crutch for bad players that is a fact. Because *obviously*. Other classes have it too, true. Delete them too then. Its not possible to go *too* far, is it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course that would be stupid. Because despite what "problems" it has, the thief is a part of the game and it offers a unique playstyle unlike any other class because, well its the thief. I'm sure many people love playing the thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > Downed state is a core gameplay element of GW2 and offers a unique playstyle unlike most other games, it's one of the reasons many people like playing GW2. It adds another tactical element to combat - sometimes for good, sometimes for bad - and plays on the human emotions of wanting to help people in need and if you can help them, they may return the favor and help you when you need it. Just what a true MMO should do rather than just skill clicking muscle memory to kill the enemy dead with boomboom and pewpew. > > > > > > > > > > Nope, not even close to being equivalent and I (as well as many other people) don't even "say *well downstate is a little OP*". Really, that it NOT what many people, including me said, so not sure why would I even read the rest when your initial claim about what I say is straight up false. And no, for me it's not a "knee jerk reaction", no matter how many times you'll try to claim it is just because it's an "easy out" for you. Just like before literally the only reason you try to claim it surely is a "kNeE jErK rEaCtIoN!1!!!" is because you want to claim that the average people have the same opinion like you, which is as baseless as it was above. > > > > > > > > > > tl;dr of your key points from 2 last responses to me: > > > > > Someone has an opinion that's different than mine? WELL, THEY ARE *JUST MAKING UP OPPOSING ARGUMENT* AND *IT WAS A KNEE JERK REACTION*! > > > > > [yup, actual quotes] > > > > Something something people willing to compromise trying to argue with people that will never compromise. > > > > > > You're not *willing to compromise*, you're literally just repeating your opinion and sticking to it while picking and choosing when the same argument is relevant or not based solely on the fact whether or not it supports your opinion ("*according to polls/majority/average player I'm correct*" ..."*well, if the polls show I'm not correct, then it means that the voters didn't understand what they vote for and now my unchanged opinion is a compromise*"). This is not what a "compromise" is and nobody says there always needs to be one. > > > > > > Nice try at pretending you're taking into consideration anything that anyone else says though. > > What does deleting downstate compromise with those that want to keep it? > > How is your long-held opinion suddenly a compromise with anything else? It's not, it's unchanged since the beginning. > > > But yeah I admit defeat. It's pointless unless you can answer that question. > > It's pointless when you're pretending you're going for a compromise, when you're clearly not, but it's an easy out for you to disregard anything that was written before, including the obvious double standards about accepting "proof" for anything based on whether or not it shows what you want it to show. > Yet, he is going for a compromise. The suggestions given are a compromise between the IS state which we have now, and a complete removal. If we assume removal is the ultimate "nerf" or final 0 output performance change. You might not agree or like the compromise given, but that does not change the fact that it IS a compromise. Unlike the strait removal. > @"Sobx.1758" said: > And again: I'm not sure where that idea that everything needs/should end in a compromise came from, but it's not a general truth and not some kind of *the best solution for any case*. Compromise is used to find common ground between mutual exclusive positions and every position in-between. Even the polls you provided suggest that given the wide spread diverging favors on this issue, not all parties could ever be satisfied. Thus while a compromise CAN result in a majority of players being offended/displeased, no compromise is nearly GUARANTEED to result in that. Finally, downstate is a crutch for weaker players. Yet it also adds an entire element to this games combat. Those 2 points can, but should not be approached separately. One thing I find mostly lacking from players arguing for the removal of downstate. Mostly I assume because it would be to much effort to actually engage with the idea that combat depth is achieved via a mechanic they disagree with (speculation on my part). Meanwhile, unless this mode is supposed to turn even more niche, going for what the majority of this games players might enjoy thus not high performance players, assuming a normal gauss distribution, makes the most sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kylden Ar.3724 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 > @"Gudradain.3892" said: > > @"Kylden Ar.3724" said: > > > @"Gudradain.3892" said: > > > The solution is to give everyone the same downed skills. > > > > > > Skill #1: Necromancer channel attack that heal and damage. > > > Skill #2: Elementalist mist form > > > Skill #3: Ranger healing pet > > > Skill #4: Bandage > > > > I mean, you're not wrong, but yet you are. > > > > PvP/WvW should have the same skills for everyone, a generic set of downed skills. PvE can keep the flavorful ones they have. > > > > **Downed Skills for WvW/PvP:** > > 1. Generic throw rock. > > 2. Throw rock harder with stun/interrupt. > > 3. Crawl Away. (While channeling, you can move slowly to try and get out of AOE or behind friendly lines, and you bleed out slower) > > 4. Bandage. That one is already universal. > > Why not give the most interesting/powerful skills instead of the most boring/ineffective skills? Everyone would love to have the same mistform as the elementalist when they are downed but your suggestions don't seem very exciting. Because one of the issues with downed in PvP is how imbalanced it is. Some classes downed skills are just clearly BETTER than the others. For PvP/WvW, it should be balanced out as an even playing field. It's not about making everyone ridiculous and able to escape as downed thru a tower portal, it's about bringing everyone down to the same level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gudradain.3892 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 > @"Kylden Ar.3724" said: > > @"Gudradain.3892" said: > > > @"Kylden Ar.3724" said: > > > > @"Gudradain.3892" said: > > > > The solution is to give everyone the same downed skills. > > > > > > > > Skill #1: Necromancer channel attack that heal and damage. > > > > Skill #2: Elementalist mist form > > > > Skill #3: Ranger healing pet > > > > Skill #4: Bandage > > > > > > I mean, you're not wrong, but yet you are. > > > > > > PvP/WvW should have the same skills for everyone, a generic set of downed skills. PvE can keep the flavorful ones they have. > > > > > > **Downed Skills for WvW/PvP:** > > > 1. Generic throw rock. > > > 2. Throw rock harder with stun/interrupt. > > > 3. Crawl Away. (While channeling, you can move slowly to try and get out of AOE or behind friendly lines, and you bleed out slower) > > > 4. Bandage. That one is already universal. > > > > Why not give the most interesting/powerful skills instead of the most boring/ineffective skills? Everyone would love to have the same mistform as the elementalist when they are downed but your suggestions don't seem very exciting. > > Because one of the issues with downed in PvP is how imbalanced it is. Some classes downed skills are just clearly BETTER than the others. For PvP/WvW, it should be balanced out as an even playing field. It's not about making everyone ridiculous and able to escape as downed thru a tower portal, it's about bringing everyone down to the same level. If you give everyone the same set of downed skills then there is no imbalance. You can bring everyone up to the same level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamikharzeeh.8016 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 thing is, if u get downed in spvp, most of the times u better die fast, unless u have lots of HP left and the enemy also downed and cleavable. in Wvw, rally is way more present, but also - in a strong bomb with woke enemies, you'll just get cleaved away in seconds. but it'd mess up class identity if u gave everyone the same downed skills. i see no sense in that. it's priority to not ever get into downed status anyways. (but even more, i'd against resing full dead ones. just make em autoport back to spawn...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 > @"kamikharzeeh.8016" said: > thing is, if u get downed in spvp, most of the times u better die fast, unless u have lots of HP left and the enemy also downed and cleavable. > > in Wvw, rally is way more present, but also - in a strong bomb with woke enemies, you'll just get cleaved away in seconds. but it'd mess up class identity if u gave everyone the same downed skills. i see no sense in that. it's priority to not ever get into downed status anyways. > > (but even more, i'd against resing full dead ones. just make em autoport back to spawn...) I agree on the class identity part, I prefer saying "that's a guardian downed, look out for the knockback, pop stab!" than just an enemy being down with generic skills. IMO it only adds to the game and the tactical combat. As mentioned above *some* downed skills are still an issue but overall its not a big issue. It would be even less of an issue with harder penalties. Cant really agree on the removing fully dead res though. As with varied downed skills, I think it it only adds to the game and if we imagine a nerf instead - 1:1 ressing specifically - it would be take far longer to res and you couldnt just send 5 out of combat people to res someone fast near a battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinas Dragonbane.2978 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 Is this large or small scale? In large scale figts downs barely seem to matter as 85% of the time those are dead in the repeated aoe on top of them. In small you have to play smarter but securing stomps or cleaving well makes way more difference there. The game has added in more ways to kill people with each expansion, downstate has stayed relatively the same since 2012, if you are still having problems against stationary targets(except ele mesmers and thieves, and underwater but wait all wvw players suffer there) that have 4 skills available to them, no advice on these forums is likely to assist you, call for that deletion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASP.8093 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 Homogenizing downed state would be worse for the game, imo. Different build/classes play different when you're up, have different weaknesses and different positioning requirements. So the circumstances for when you're going down in the first place aren't perfectly symmetrical. I think there's room to replace/rework some of the downed skills and tweak the coefficients on most of them, but just throwing them all away for the sake of a more trivially-balanced generic set would just make one of GW2's unique mechanics just… worse. Dull and bland and still not really that much more balanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > > > > I'm not "assuming" any more than you are -average player being bad is a fact. Downstate as a great safety net for bad players is a fact (which doesn't mean it's limited to strictly this reasoning for every player that wants to keep the downstate, in case you think I'm somehow trying to insult you here or w/e). Actually if we use *what you did* as a proof for anything (polls), then *most players/average player* wants the downstate to remain unchanged: > > > > > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/97040/new-balance-patch-time-to-change-downstate > > > > > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/75626/no-downstate-poll-please-read-post-first/p1 > > > > > > > It's not an opt in. Skill is irrelevant, downstate is always there. I'd love to know how many times the absolute best players in WvW has been ressed. But maybe they are secretly bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course it's not. Of course anyone uses it *beacuse they have no choice* and if you get that soft cushon to fall on then why would you not use it while others do? But that still doesn't change anything about what I've said and what I said was never anything like "good players don't use it", which you seem to be answering to for some reason. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also for those votes, want to bet that *almost all* of the unchanged voters would still agree to a compromise if you argued with them? > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't matter what you "want to bet on". You were talking about polls as a proof for *whatever claim*, now that the poll shows against what you've said, you suddenly don't care about what they show, but instead *want to bet*. Cool. But you're also doing exactly what I said -these limited polls are only relevant when they show what I (in this case: *you*) want them to show. So it's clear what and why you're doing right now. Again, your "bets" don't change anything about what I've said in my previous posts, but they sure show that you'll try to use double standards when taking those ""undeniable proofs"" as actual proofs based pretty much solely on the fact whether or not they confirm *your opinion*. > > > > > > > > > > > > >Leaving it unchanged is probably mostly a knee-jerk reaction to delete being in the poll. > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, these things are not equivalent -not even close. > > > > > > > Oh but they are eqvivalent and they are close. Just like when people say "well downstate is a little OP" and the knee-jerk reaction is "dElEtE DowNsTaTe!1!!", so has pretty much any argument with thief and its... lets just say liberal use of... stealth been. Delete the thief. Problem solved. If you consider deleting downstate a valid point then there are no ifs or buts. I can **easily** argue that combat stealth gameplay has no place in competitive PvP. So delete thief, it's a crutch for bad players that is a fact. Because *obviously*. Other classes have it too, true. Delete them too then. Its not possible to go *too* far, is it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course that would be stupid. Because despite what "problems" it has, the thief is a part of the game and it offers a unique playstyle unlike any other class because, well its the thief. I'm sure many people love playing the thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Downed state is a core gameplay element of GW2 and offers a unique playstyle unlike most other games, it's one of the reasons many people like playing GW2. It adds another tactical element to combat - sometimes for good, sometimes for bad - and plays on the human emotions of wanting to help people in need and if you can help them, they may return the favor and help you when you need it. Just what a true MMO should do rather than just skill clicking muscle memory to kill the enemy dead with boomboom and pewpew. > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope, not even close to being equivalent and I (as well as many other people) don't even "say *well downstate is a little OP*". Really, that it NOT what many people, including me said, so not sure why would I even read the rest when your initial claim about what I say is straight up false. And no, for me it's not a "knee jerk reaction", no matter how many times you'll try to claim it is just because it's an "easy out" for you. Just like before literally the only reason you try to claim it surely is a "kNeE jErK rEaCtIoN!1!!!" is because you want to claim that the average people have the same opinion like you, which is as baseless as it was above. > > > > > > > > > > > > tl;dr of your key points from 2 last responses to me: > > > > > > Someone has an opinion that's different than mine? WELL, THEY ARE *JUST MAKING UP OPPOSING ARGUMENT* AND *IT WAS A KNEE JERK REACTION*! > > > > > > [yup, actual quotes] > > > > > Something something people willing to compromise trying to argue with people that will never compromise. > > > > > > > > You're not *willing to compromise*, you're literally just repeating your opinion and sticking to it while picking and choosing when the same argument is relevant or not based solely on the fact whether or not it supports your opinion ("*according to polls/majority/average player I'm correct*" ..."*well, if the polls show I'm not correct, then it means that the voters didn't understand what they vote for and now my unchanged opinion is a compromise*"). This is not what a "compromise" is and nobody says there always needs to be one. > > > > > > > > Nice try at pretending you're taking into consideration anything that anyone else says though. > > > What does deleting downstate compromise with those that want to keep it? > > > > How is your long-held opinion suddenly a compromise with anything else? It's not, it's unchanged since the beginning. > > > > > But yeah I admit defeat. It's pointless unless you can answer that question. > > > > It's pointless when you're pretending you're going for a compromise, when you're clearly not, but it's an easy out for you to disregard anything that was written before, including the obvious double standards about accepting "proof" for anything based on whether or not it shows what you want it to show. > > > > And again: I'm not sure where that idea that everything needs/should end in a compromise came from, but it's not a general truth and not some kind of *the best solution for any case*. > The compromise is to nerf downstate, to the point I even suggest to fully delete a part of it (rally). Something I think most people will find acceptable because it doesnt change the core aspect of downstate, it has less impact on smallscale and more impact on large scale and it also remove a "toxic" aspect, ie just leaving the downed or complaining that they rally the enemy. We are talking about an existing part of the game that we have had for 8 years. Again: > > **What does deleting downstate compromise with those that want to keep it?** What exactly don't you understand about what I wrote in my previous posts? From what I know there are 3 prevaling "general" options in regards to downstate: a) leave it b) nerf it c) delete it. "nerf it" COULD be called a compromise between the option "a" and "c", but you've always held an opinion "b", at which point stop pretending you're "wishing to compromise", because you're not. Just because it seems that your opinion might be a compromise between the other options does nothing for you "being willingful to compromise with others", so stop pretending you are just because you got called out on your double standards. Not only that, but claiming that "compromise" is the best option, because it "kind of could make everyone happy" is false and by far isn't an overall rule. Many times those "compromises" aren't even close to actual good/optimal solutions, so stop pretending you're taking this stance for the overal wellbeing of the playerbase *or whatever*, because as I've already wrote multiple times above **-which btw you keep constantly dodging-** "most players" (something you were trying to use to speak against *one of the options you didn't like*) wanted the downstate to remain **unchanged**. To which the only thing you were able to say is a pretty hilarious response that claimed "*those players didn't know what they were voting for* aaaand *that must have been a knee-jerk reaction*". Don't come up with new questions when you're constantly dodging the facts about what you've done in this thread multiple times already, beacuse what you're writing here about "willingness to compromise" is pretty clearly dishonest. Semi-related: can someone remind me if downstate got nerfed after the february patch? 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